Game of Thrones Season 6 Episode 3 – Oathbreaker – Open Chat

Open Chat

Game of Thrones Season 6, Episode 3 “Oathbreaker”

Writers: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss
Director: Daniel Sackheim
Runtime: 53 minutes
Content Warnings: TV-MA: Adult Content, Adult Language, Brief Nudity, Violence
Video Preview: Full episode 3 preview on YouTube

Synopsis: Daenerys meets her future. Bran meets the past. Tommen confronts the High Sparrow. Arya trains to be No One. Varys finds an answer. Ramsay gets a gift.

*Note: this post is for ALL viewers so please use spoiler coding when discussing ASOIAF or filming spoilers.*

Spoiler coding is still required in this Open Chat post prior to the episode’s official airing (9PM EDT tonight for Season 6 Episode 3). We ask that fans use consideration for your fellow viewers, and cover and label your spoilers appropriately. Please do not post or link to any leaked episode 3 summaries or major spoilers. Those posts will be deleted. Thank you!

Sue the Fury
Susan Miller, Editor in Chief of WatchersOnTheWall.com

1,041 Comments

  1. *

    I can’t wait for this ep tonight – I am counting down the hours. Enjoy everyone! Bookreader friends, we’ve been waiting for this moment for years, some even a decade plus! It’s all happening! Yes, I know maybe not *this* episode but it’s so close.

    * Proud member of PNMH – People for No More Hodoring!

  2. My prediction on beginning of the episode: jon snow walks out the room naked and proceeds directly to melisandre to have sex

  3. Does anyone else share my concern that perhaps the ToJ scene will be split over numerous episodes and will seem disjointed?

  4. For Mother’s Day, I asked my husband to take our kid to the movies so I could watch at airtime in a quiet house. I’m basically a monster.

    I think I’ll film myself while I watch, just to see if I look as ridiculous as I feel watching this season (I hope it’s not just me).

    MUCH EXCITE. VERY HYPE.

  5. It will be an absolute joy to watch this episode. After last week’s stellar episode, I’m hoping it will be another superb episode, and with what we have seen so far, I think it might very well be!!!

  6. My wild theory is That Varys is going to die by sons of the harpy because he will find out the answer.

  7. steffan:
    My prediction on beginning of the episode: jon snow walks out the room naked and proceeds directly to melisandre to have sex

    He waits for 1 hour in the room until someone brings him warm clothes.

  8. Kingbreaker,

    All of ToJ within a single episode would be a bit overwhelming for some, I think. More casual viewers just won’t be able to digest it all. If build-up is done properly, I believe splitting up the scene would actually help its case.

  9. Happy Mother’s Day! 🙂

    Let us hope the mother of everyone’s favorite bastard makes herself known tonight!!!
  10. WUN WUN:
    My wild theory is That Varys is going to die by sons of the harpy because he will find out the answer.

    someone:” Meereen is under attack of Sons of the Harpy … ”
    Euron suddenly on screen: “I am the Harpy. And I am Meereen”

  11. teunteulai: He waits for 1 hour in the room until someone brings him warm clothes.

    What if he’s not cold? What if he’s full of the hot love of the Lord of Light?

  12. A friend who has never watched the show is arriving from afar tonite. So now he begins to love the Thrones, or now it ends! 😀

  13. Tommen couldn´t confront Ser Punce let alone the High moralizing Sparrow. Looking foward to seeing how that works out LOL

    —————————–
    Remember we also get Ep4 preview today/tonight

  14. Who’s ready for a “gift” tonight?!

    Do we think Rickon closes out the episode tonight?

  15. I am beside myself thinking of what we’ll see in this episode. I am trying, however, to temper my expectations, just in case, for whatever reason, we don’t see all of the ToJ in this episode.

    I think what has me most giddy is the thought of my step-father getting to see it. He’s fully Unsullied…hasn’t read the books, knows nothing about filming spoilers (ok, he knows about McShane appearing at some point in the season…he’s the one who talked me into watching Deadwood many years ago), and knows nothing about any fan theories.

    I am so excited for him!!! ?

  16. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Based on episode descriptions of a future episode, I think they’ll split up ToJ with the big reveal stalled. It’ll be interesting to see how they do it, because at this point, everyone kinda knows what’s in that tower, right?

  17. Should be a great episode, purists will keep whining about the ToJ scene though. And the critics will continue to complain about the pacing.

    Get hype nonetheless !

  18. What if they split the Tower of Joy Flashback and show parts of it in multiple episodes? Explanation could be that the three eyed crow doesn’t want Bran to “drown” in his visions.
    Pretty scared of that right now.

  19. Nici,

    The Tower of Joy part II will be in Episode 5, it is known. We’re only getting part I tonight. I don’t mind that at all.

  20. Kingbreaker:
    Does anyone else share my concern that perhaps the ToJ scene will be split over numerous episodes and will seem disjointed?

    Yes! even worse- the whole scene WILL play out but there will be no confirmation that the baby is JS for-like-ever! and then the crazy theory machine will go into overdrive. lol

  21. This is going to be a fun one. I mean, every episode of this remarkable show is fun, but on the heels of last week’s all-time great hour, this one has a chance to be special. Whether it’s seeing the newly-revived Jon take action or the fabled Tower of Joy sequence (in full or in part), we’ve been waiting a long time for this. 🙂

  22. I have a feeling people are going to bitch about them not showing the full Tower of Joy vision. And that one little thing is changed from the books about Dayne not having his sword Dawn.

    Oh boy.

  23. Lyanna Forever: What if he’s not cold? What if he’s full of the hot love of the Lord of Light?

    Dunno, where would he get all the blood to be warm, since he lost every drop ? Real magic

  24. I’ve come to realise that I’m not that interested in Jon’s story, so this episode probably won’t be that interesting to me. Looking forward to the E4 preview, though.

  25. Everything seems to point to ToJ being split so people should prepare themselves accordingly.

  26. Ravyn,

    Having gone back to reread the couple of future episode descriptions we have, I see what you mean. I also think, however much many of us just want it all right now, it could make sense to split it up, and, yes, if that’s how they do it, it will be interesting to see both how they split it up and how they get the pertinent “surrounding” information out there. Someone made the point it may be a bit too much for truly Unsullied to digest in one episode, and that makes sense. Those of us here have had so much time to think about it, talk about it, speculate about it, but for those who don’t have the benefit of the time we’ve had, not to mention all the background info., it may be best to deliver the information in a couple of doses.

  27. Game of Thrones Facebook posted a video for tonight’s episode, it’s the shot of Jon getting up from the table, so it starts with Jon.

  28. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    I don’t object if they split it up, especially if there’s more to the reveal than decades of speculation has been able to suss out. Somehow, I always feel as if we should really see the reveal through Jon’s eyes. And at the end of the day, it’s all about execution.

  29. There is literally someone spoiling the whole episode and nothing is being done about it.

  30. HYPED!! Again fighting a battle to stay awake until 3 am. I must be crazy. Bring it on!

  31. Connor:
    There is literally someone spoiling the whole episode and nothing is being done about it.

    I just think no one is around to do it right now. 🙁

    I keep scrolling past his posts but I know others are going to end up getting spoiled by this idiot. Please no one quote him or anything. I am sure someone will take care of it shortly.

  32. Since they were mentioned in the previous episode, do you think we’ll see the Glovers and Manderlys this season?

  33. Not feeling this one guy…don’t know why. It has the potential to be great or controversial. We’ll see how it plays out, let’s hope it will be the former.

  34. I’m guessing the mods here can’t spend every second constantly refreshing the comments section of each article just in case some asswipe decides to show up and start posting spoilers. I hate the idea of reporting anyone, but when it comes to something like this, oh well, I’m ok with feeling like a narc.

  35. I will come back in half an hour… good thing I clicked the jump to the bottom…

  36. Flayed Potatoes:
    Since they were mentioned in the previous episode, do you think we’ll see the Glovers and Manderlys this season?

    I actually do. I’ve tried to never get my hopes up about Wyman Manderly because I love the character. Even after the very Manderly-esque casting call, I still was unsure. But mentioning the name in the last episode sealed the deal for me. We will get a (very brief) but epic Wyman Manderly. I think he will have a Karsi kind of episode. A one episode character who makes a big impact on fans. I would be so happy if the Manderly house words were finally revealed as well.

    Not sure about the Glovers but I could see them being in the scene with Davos/Sansa at Bear Island.

  37. Flayed Potatoes:
    Since they were mentioned in the previous episode, do you think we’ll see the Glovers and Manderlys this season?

    Hoping against hope for Wyman Manderley!

  38. Laura,

    Hope they bring back Mark Coney to play Galbart Glover, just to get a nice reminder of the season 1 bannermen.

  39. Deesensfan,

    I don’t know. Fortunately, I read the “someone is spoiling everything comment” before I read whatever the dude was posting. I mean, I started to read his first post, but then alarm bells starting going off in my head, I blurred my vision (hahaha), and started scrolling down.

  40. Next time someone tries to do that, try using Contact sooner.

    But let’s move on, okay? It doesn’t help if people keep posting ABOUT what he said and giving the troll attention. Thanks.

  41. I predict

    the death of the Night’s Watch traitors by beheading – chop, chop, chop. Jon does them all with Longclaw. Olly is saved for last, and he gets the Beautiful Death poster. Let the boy die and the man rise.

    I didn’t see what the spoilers were up above. And now that they are gone, I’ll put my prediction in spoiler quotes. I don’t want to find out I was right or wrong until tonight!

  42. Lyanna_Targaryen,

    Ha ha. Every week I warn my son he better not bother me unless he is bleeding PROFUSELY or on fire OR HE WILL FEEL MY WRATH.

    Evil mama.

    Happy Mothers Day to all.?

  43. I am hoping the closing credits include

    noted character actor, Ed Fetchme, credited with playing “a block”

    .

  44. I have a feeling they’ll cut the scene as Ned approaches the door and then the episode titled “The Door” will be him opening it to reveal the secret (Bran reaches to the door and then the Three Eyed Raven pulls him back or something like that). Splitting it like that makes a lot of sense, story-wise.

  45. steffan,

    steffan: steffan:
    My prediction on beginning of the episode: jon snow walks out the room naked and proceeds directly to melisandre to have sex

    And a shadow dragon is born !!!

  46. ToJ will be split. Beinoff and Weiss are giving Martin every extra day possible to get Winds out.

  47. Do you think we’ll see Shaggydog again, or they’ll just focus on Ghost?

  48. Will there actually be 3 different Lyannas during this season?
    1) Young Lyanna at WF
    2) Dying Lyanna at ToJ
    3) Mummer Lyanna in Braavos
  49. Jack Bauer 24,

    This is my most anticipated fight, more so then the red viper vs the mountain 🙂
    Don’t the split, just want a good episode, and Tower of joy fight 🙂

  50. steffan:
    My prediction on beginning of the episode: jon snow walks out the room naked and proceeds directly to melisandre to have sex

    Hahahaha – 😀 😀 😀

    Yeah, Jon goes to her room with a huge ‘hard on’ and give her the best rodger’n she’s had in a thousand years! Just hope for Jon’s sake Mel’s wearing that necklace or taken that potion that keeps her looking young LOL 🙂

  51. I was thinking about this while out fishing yesterday (amazing how the serenity of fishing clears your mind) Anyway here it is:

    1. Starts off with Jon waking up and maybe the ladies get a butt shot of him i can see it now (the butt meme’s that broke the net)

    2.. Bran see’s and we get TOJ V-1.0 And get to see Lyanna Stark, It is Mothers day after all, then it hit me. E-9 is Fathers day and I would not put it past HBO to hold out on the child reveal until then.

    3.. Dany gets to the Temple nothing more nothing special unless Captain Friend-Zone and Loverboy save her but damn that would be a lot in one episode, im not to enthused for Dany tonight.

    4.. Varys should be interesting and hope it finally puts to rest who the leader of the Harpies is.

    5. The gift at this point is obvious and why ive been worried for some time about the show going to hollywood predictable. Oh but im going to say right now I think Littlefinger is the one who helps supply the gift somehow… just hoping for a suprise.

    6. Sansa arrives at the wall and we fade away to credits and preview.

  52. Excited for this episode – some random thoughts.

    1) Stannis might be the “Gift” tonight.
    2) Sansa is pregnant – Happy Mother’s Day.
    3) A much darker Jon will execute Olly and Thorne.

  53. Someone, please, help me with a question related to splitting up ToJ. If it were split, wouldn’t all scenes from the ToJ have to be shown during Sackheim directed episodes?

  54. Tigger,

    Maybe Sacheim directed the outside the tower parts, and Bender did the inside? Those two scenes don’t necessarily need to have the same director I don’t think. But I know *literally* nothing about show production.

  55. Mustangride:
    I was thinking about this while out fishing yesterday (amazing how the serenity of fishing clears your mind) Anyway here it is:

    1. Starts off with Jon waking up and maybe the ladies get a butt shot of him i can see it now (the butt meme’s that broke the net)

    2.. Bran see’s and we get TOJ V-1.0 And get to seeLyanna Stark, It is Mothers day after all, then it hit me. E-9 is Fathers day and I would not put it past HBO to hold out on the child reveal until then.

    3.. Dany gets to the Temple nothing more nothing special unless Captain Friend-Zone and Loverboy save her but damn that would be a lot in one episode, im not to enthused for Dany tonight.

    4.. Varys should be interesting and hope it finally puts to rest who the leader of the Harpies is.

    5. The gift at this point is obvious and why ive been worried for some time about the show going to hollywood predictable. Oh but im going to say right now I think Littlefinger is the one who helps supply the gift somehow… just hoping for a suprise.

    6. Sansa arrives at the wall and we fade away to credits and preview.

    I think we’ll see Drogon fly over tonight since that shot from the trailer looked like it was on their way to the temple.

  56. I think this episode won’t be one of the season’s highlights, but still solid.

  57. Kingbreaker,

    Given what they did with Maggie’s Prophecy in S5e1, I’d be VERY surprised if they showed the events AFTER the TOJ fight in THIS episode – I thought they’d show the rest of Maggie’s Prophecy sometime in Season 5, but they never did. That being said, part of me thinks David & Dan are saving the big reveal until GRRM first reveals it himself. So don’t get too excited for a reveal this season, R+L=J fans!

  58. I think we’ll see Drogon fly over tonight since that shot from the trailer looked like it was on their way to the temple.

  59. Ser Clintalot:
    Kingbreaker,

    Given what they did with Maggie’s Prophecy in S5e1, I’d be VERY surprised if they showed the events AFTER the TOJ fight in THIS episode – I thought they’d show the rest of Maggie’s Prophecy sometime in Season 5, but they never did.That being said, part of me thinks David & Dan are saving the big reveal until GRRM first reveals it himself.So don’t get too excited for a reveal this season, R+L=J fans!

    I think they are waiting for Martin too.

  60. Ser Clintalot,

    That could be next season or after. The show will finish before the books are so at this point they cannot sit on their hands waiting for George anymore. Many things will have to be done that it would have been preferable to George to reveal but it wont be the case.

    The Books are the Books the show is the show. And the show being what it is they already have all 10 Eps ready to go and are not waiting on George its going to happen on the shows time now.

  61. steffan:
    My prediction on beginning of the episode: jon snow walks out the room naked and proceeds directly to melisandre to have sex

    No better way to celebrate coming back to life than getting laid!

  62. Blanche Holstein,

    You’re gonna let him watch the third episode of SEASON 6 without having watched any of the show before? That’s pretty messed up! It’ll spoil everything if your friend ever decides to go back and watch from the beginning!

  63. One of Bronn’s good impregnators,

    I can’t wait to see the text he sends me after the episode. The one he sent last week, which I didn’t see until Monday morning, ’cause I forgot to turn my phone back on after the episode, was so cute! It still tickles me we get to share something like this, especially given he’s almost 80!

  64. Blanche Holstein:
    A friend who has never watched the show is arriving from afar tonite. So now he begins to love the Thrones, or now it ends!

    Make him drink every time there is a dickless character on screen.

  65. Jack Bauer 24,

    I think they went to great lengths leading up to this season to keep as much as they could for GRRM to tell on his own terms. Reading about all they did to try and keep Jon’s fate from being a certainty reinforces that idea, to me. Had the book come out before the season began, it could have been told in Martin’s way, first…including what we’ll be seeing this episode, but that didn’t happen.

  66. Kingbreaker: Does anyone else share my concern that perhaps the ToJ scene will be split over numerous episodes and will seem disjointed?

    Eh. The ToJ was split up in the books too. I think we’ll get what Ned remembered in his fever dream this episode, then the aftermath and official revealations in E5.

    At least, unlike the books, it’d be only two episodes apart, not five novels apart.

  67. This will probably be the most viewed episode of the series so far, and one of the best I hope 🙂

  68. They’re not waiting for Martin in the slightest. He had his chance and he blew it. This is the only ending we’re getting of ASOIAF. Martin is probably close to finishing TWOW by his own standards, but close by his standards could be several years. No one knows how fast George will write, including himself, so to wait for him would be absolute madness.

    If fans really believe that D&D will hold up events at this stage of the series to wait for George they are deluded as he is.

  69. Connor:
    There is literally someone spoiling the whole episode and nothing is being done about it.

    Because the least we can do is NOT identify it. Those who know, already know and those who don’t know, don’t know the difference.

  70. Geralt:
    Or a dick joke, seems like there’s more to come.

    I was hoping that Pod would discuss the Meereenese Knot with Theon by the fire before he left. 🙂 (So cruel)

  71. I got halfway through the comments and saw that someone was trying to ruin things with spoilers – thanks for the warning friends.

    I just jumped to the bottom.

  72. Just checking NowTV works for streaming the show at 2am and there’s something on called The Tunnel: Sabotage. Who should I see as soon as the playback loads? Stannis! Very weird seeing him not in GOT gear!

    So excited for tonight!!!

  73. reek,

    It will be one of the weakest of the season, the second half and the next two episodes looks way better on paper. Especially these storylines : Arya, Dany, Meereen, King’s Landing, Bran and Sam.

    You guys are expecting too much from this one.

  74. Knight of the Walkers,

    The abuse GRRM gets on his Twitter now whenever he posts anything not GoT related (which is almost exclusively at this point) makes me wonder why he even bothers., especially when your own fans call you a “dick bag” for letting the show spoil all your story highlights.

  75. No offense but they are NOT waiting to reveal Jon’s parentage. It might not happen tonight, but it’s happening this season and likely very very soon. Homeboy had 5 years to beat them by putting out the book first. He didn’t and so it goes. This whole season is killing him but “the show must go on.”

    I certainly look forward to WoW and will devour it when it’s finished but yeah, especially with the announcement of a maximum of 15 hours after this season, the books will not finish before the show and there’s a chance WoW won’t even be out now before the show ends. Once GRRM missed that end of year deadline, it was over and the show gets to tell us the the ending. I wish it wasn’t going down like that, but I am so happy that there will be a definitive ending to the story no matter what happens with GRRM’s writing or health, etc.

  76. Lyanna_Targaryenn:
    Tigger,

    Maybe Sacheim directed the outside the tower parts, and Bender did the inside? Those two scenes don’t necessarily need to have the same director I don’t think. But I know *literally* nothing about show production.

    isn’t he slated for episode 5 tho? or am I wrong?

  77. All I am saying is if they break the ToJ scene/reveal into 2 episodes by leaving it as this episode’s cliffhanger I am going to be pissed.

    But it would be such a genius cliffhanger lol.

  78. Izatty,

    5 & 6 are Jack Bender episodes.

    I also don’t know where the whole “you folks are expecting too much from this episode” chant is coming from. It hasn’t even aired yet, for heaven’s sake.

  79. Knight of the Walkers:
    They’re not waiting for Martin in the slightest. He had his chance and he blew it. This is the only ending we’re getting of ASOIAF. Martin is probably close to finishing TWOW by his own standards, but close by his standards could be several years. No one knows how fast George will write, including himself, so to wait for him would be absolute madness.

    If fans really believe that D&D will hold up events at this stage of the series to wait for George they are deluded as he is.

    Preach.

    reek:
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BFKFFyBI1Bz/?taken-by=emilia_clarke
    foreshadowing? ?

    haha – It’s on like Khaleesi Kong! I love her – she is so adorable.

  80. steffan:
    My prediction on beginning of the episode: jon snow walks out the room naked and proceeds directly to melisandre to have sex

    Agree with first half. he walks out naked, runs into Davos. This gives rise to Davos’s shocked look

    Regarding second part, no it shouldn’t happen cos as I said in that comment got deleted due to quoting the spoiler guy, Melisandre is Jon’s new mom. She gave ‘rebirth’ to him.

  81. Izatty,

    The least we can do is listen to Sue and do what she asks (use the “contact us” feature and bring it to the attention of those who can get rid of them), and by doing so, have each other’s backs.

    And now I will respect the rest of what she said and stop talking about them.

  82. Geralt,

    Yeah this one will be on the slower side + TOJ.

    Next episode will be big though. Stark reunion, Pink Letter, that Dany moment from the filming… today’s ep will mostly be reactions to Jon + his reaction to the mutineers, things heating up at KL and the Tower of Joy (which may or may not only be half-done this episode, I don’t really have an opinion on that).

  83. Ravyn,

    Ha! You honestly think he actually uses that twitter? That’s the PR machine, friend, and GM has no hand in it. The closest you’ll find GM to social media is his Not A Bore.

  84. Jack Bauer 24: I think they are waiting for Martin too.

    I don’t think so – there is no way HBO gives a shit about what or when Martin is doing. This show is a money making juggernaut and they have paid him a pretty penny for all of his secrets.

    No way do they wait for him, the fans won’t allow it.

  85. Lyanna_Targaryen:
    For Mother’s Day, I asked my husband to take our kid to the movies so I could watch at airtime in a quiet house. I’m basically a monster.

    I think I’ll film myself while I watch, just to see if I look as ridiculous as I feel watching this season (I hope it’s not just me).

    MUCH EXCITE. VERY HYPE.

    I can tell you’re a great mom, and happy mom’s day to all the rest of you. I was simply hoping there wouldn’t be any baby deaths this episode… my wife had to leave the room again last week. I don’t like head smooshing, and she can’t stomach implied infanticide. I hope Ramsey’s gift is just a regular trinket, or maybe a pie???

  86. aabe,

    I think the face that Davos has is because he is surprised to see him missing. He is gonna walk in to take the body for a pyre but he won’t find him there. The part about melisandre is just me thinking thats how they are gonna show his new ‘i have to live my life to the fullest’ change of character. But you may be right also, i’m just theorizing here lol.

  87. Princess Liann.
    Inside “The Tower”.
    In exile.

    Surely, some sort of coincidence…

  88. jentario:
    Geralt,

    Yeah this one will be on the slower side + TOJ.

    Next episode will be big though. Stark reunion, Pink Letter, that Dany moment from the filming… today’s ep will mostly be reactions to Jon + his reaction to the mutineers, things heating up at KL and the Tower of Joy (which may or may not only be half-done this episode, I don’t really have an opinion on that).

    You’re forgetting the “gift”. Could be a huge return for someone missing since Season 3.

  89. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    THIS! Whatever they do will make sense to their version of the story. Quit yer bitchin’, people! Especially the bitchin’ about the bitchin’. Geesh!

    Tonight, my fondest wish comes true: A DAYNE!!

    Happy Mother’s Day, Everyone!

  90. Not sure how they plan of explaining the ToJ sequence to the average viewer. The typical casual viewer still can’t name many of the characters in the show and they certainly have no understanding of the history and lore of Westeros.

  91. Ashara D: Happy Mother’s Day, Everyone!

    Yes…Happy Mother’s Day to all the mamas out there.
    If you aren’t a mother, but are lucky enough to still have your mothers, please, go see them, or call them, or whatever…let them know you love them!
    For those who have lost their mamas, try and remember, or at least I’ll say what I do…I don’t like this day, it brings into sharp focus how terribly I miss her. However, I try to think of how what she’d want most for me is to live a happy and fulfilling life, so I try to rededicate myself to that idea, and thus honor her memory.

    Sorry if that sounds cheesy or preachy.

  92. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    Ravyn,

    Someone made the point [the ToJ scene] may be a bit too much for truly Unsullied to digest in one episode, and that makes sense. Those of us here have had so much time to think about it, talk about it, speculate about it, but for those who don’t have the benefit of the time we’ve had, not to mention all the background info., it may be best to deliver the information in a couple of doses.

    I would love if they gave us enough of the scene to cause others to speculate. My fear is that they won’t drop heavy enough hints tonight to guess what’s behind the door.

  93. Flayed Potatoes: Maybe a sample chapter, unless Brandon Sanderson takes over ?

    As much as I love Brandon Sanderson, he so would be the wrong guy to finish aSoIaF if GRRM shuffled off this mortal coil before the series is done. Sanderson deals well with high epic fantasies. ASoIaF has way too much ultra-violence and hyper-sexuality for Sanderson’s style of writing.

  94. Here’s something to think about with Bran’s visions, though others may have come up with this:

    What if Bran is able to see these things because of warging into Hodor, because they are not from the weirtree network, but Hodor’s memories?
  95. Fingers crossed for whoever/whatever is the gift for Ramsey. Casting protective spell.

  96. In reference to .. “Now it begins.” “NO, now it ends.”

    Maybe Ned was once in on a plot to get Rhaegar to throne, maybe after being persuaded by Lyanna, not knowing of their romance though.

    Then when he heard Lyanna and Rhaegar were actually romantically involved, it wasn’t just a friendship, and she would ditch the betrothal with Robert, he backed out of his role in the Rhaegar rise.

    So “now it begins” is basically saying, now begins Jon’s rise to being a King.

    And “no, now it ends” is Ned officially backing out of the plot.

    So much of the guilt Ned feels is due to promising Lyanna that he would help Jon to the throne, not telling her that he already killed the 3 KingsGuard men and completely backed out of supporting his role.

  97. VegoDread:
    Excited for this episode – some random thoughts.

    1) Stannis might be the “Gift” tonight.
    2) Sansa is pregnant – Happy Mother’s Day.
    3) A much darker Jon will execute Olly and Thorne.

    1. The conversation between Roose and Ramsey in episode one established that they know Stannis is dead and that his body was found.
    2. I suppose this might be possible, but if it is, she won’t find out until later in the season.
    3.Yep, this is entirely possible.

  98. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    I’m guessing the mods here can’t spend every second constantly refreshing the comments section of each article just in case some asswipe decides to show up and start posting spoilers.I hate the idea of reporting anyone, but when it comes to something like this, oh well, I’m ok with feeling like a narc.

    If every poster reports quickly, less of us get spoiled. I appreciate that greatly. “Do your duty. Swing the sword,” I say.

  99. Nymeria Warrior Queen: Yes…Happy Mother’s Day to all the mamas out there.
    If you aren’t a mother, but are lucky enough to still have your mothers, please, go see them, or call them, or whatever…let them know you love them!
    For those who have lost their mamas, try and remember, or at least I’ll say what I do…I don’t like this day, it brings into sharp focus how terribly I miss her.However, I try to think of how what she’d want most for me is to live a happy and fulfilling life, so I try to rededicate myself to that idea, and thus honor her memory.

    Sorry if that sounds cheesy or preachy.

    Not at all – just heartfelt.

  100. Truth be told i would think it genius if the ep ends with toj fighting and then we see ned entering the room seeing an unidentified woman with a newborn baby (pref one without black hair) and then it fades out. that would be really nice storytelling/cliffhanging

  101. Does anyone have a link to share of all the content from the books pertaining to the tower of joy and related events such as the tournament with Rhaegar and Lyanna? I mean specifically the book text not the theories or people talking about all we know about it. I would like to refresh by reading the book material and can’t find a site where someone put it all together to be read.

  102. ArrySnow,

    I agree but if that scene is the last one, they would have to reveal the ending at the start of the next episode, which obviously isn’t going to happen.

  103. JamesL:
    Not sure how they plan of explaining the ToJ sequence to the average viewer. The typical casual viewer still can’t name many of the characters in the show and they certainly have no understanding of the history and lore of Westeros.

    Presumably Bran asking questions and Bloodraven/Three-eyed raven answering them?

  104. Kingbreaker,

    I’m so fearful of this, but I don’t believe they’ll do it. This season is hitting the ground running in a crazy way, so I hope and believe ToJ will follow suit.

  105. Jack Bauer 24,

    Personally I think the gift will be a defiant Theon, soon to be a skinless Theon, followed by an ‘on fire’ Theon at the battle of Winterfell. Only guesses, but Alfie Allen did have a ‘Couldn’t give a shit anymore’ approach to interviews and spoilers before the season started

  106. Geralt,

    doesn’t actually have to be at the end. just the last we see of toj 😉 like just letting it hang there. maybe with ned looking rather astonished at the woman and the baby.
    gives the book readers something to look forward to and the unsullied to speculate over. and the big reveal won’t actually be then.
    i imagine sth like:
    scene outside toj
    scene inside
    br pulling bran back
    bran (having recognized jon and/or Lya) wants to speak about it and is rather excited but br silences him before he can spill the beans which he will later do when he sees jon

    prly just dreaming up my fav scenario here but what can a woman do? 😉

  107. Chris:
    Jack Bauer 24,

    Personally I think the gift will be a defiant Theon, soon to be a skinless Theon, followed by an ‘on fire’ Theon at the battle of Winterfell. Only guesses, but Alfie Allen did have a ‘Couldn’t give a shit anymore’ approach to interviews and spoilers before the season started

    It’s not Theon.filming spoilers peg him at Pyke
  108. Ser Clintalot,

    lol, he isn’t into complex fantasy type fiction so he will have to sit out on the deck and smoke for amusement 9-10PM. It can’t be helped, just the way events came together.

  109. Ravyn,

    There’s also the stuff we don’t know about beyond the promise and what is revealed in the books. That’s what I’m waiting for.

  110. Blanche Holstein,

    it is mother’s day all around the globe i believe 😉
    that’s why the inside ToJ would be so great today (even if we will not be told who the mysterious beauty and the child are)

  111. ArrySnow:
    Blanche Holstein,

    it is mother’s day all around the globe i believe ?
    that’s why the inside ToJ would be so great today (even if we will not be told who the mysterious beauty and the child are)

    In Sweden, Mother’s day is May 29 this year ?

  112. steffan,

    I wouldn’t object to watching Jon Snow have sexy time. But somehow I don’t think that will be the first thing on his mind 🙂 Eventually though him and Mel probably will.

  113. Can’t wait for 9 pm. So many questions on what will happen. Will Jon kill the mutineers including Olly? What/who will be Ramsy’s gift. Of course how much of the TOJ will we see tonight. Meanwhile Danny’s story needs to move forward. It is getting boring. How can someone who can’t control Meereen control Kings Landing?

  114. Pounce,

    i also wasnt aware that it wasn’t the same day everywhere… twitter is running crazy with it. interesting how it even differs throughout europe

  115. Why do people think the ToJ will be in two parts? The credit goes to the bulk of the episode. The fact that Bender isn’t credited just means the ToJ is not the bulk of the episode am I right? Or did I miss something else

  116. Khal Daniel,

    They must have moved the scene in Sackheim’s episode for whatever reason. I recall that Jack Bender filmed the fight scene at Castillo de Zefra. We will find out soon enough 🙂

  117. Khal Daniel:
    Does anyone have a link to share of all the content from the books pertaining to the tower of joy and related events such as the tournament with Rhaegar and Lyanna? I mean specifically the book text not the theories or people talking about all we know about it. I would like to refresh by reading the book material and can’t find a site where someone put it all together to be read.

    Note, book spoilers abound here, but this is a very informative site on the books.

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tower_of_Joy
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaegar_Targaryen
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lyanna_Stark
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tourney_at_Harrenhal
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree

    If you have the books, you can also search the cited chapters at the bottom of each webpage for more details. If you have Kindle versions of the books, you may even find more references to the ToJ, Lyanna, and Rhaegar by searching.

  118. Pounce,

    Damn right they should!! If the show is using mother’s day to reveal a certain character’s parentage, using the uk date we’d have all found out 2 months ago 🙂

  119. ArrySnow,

    Mother’s Day was in March this year in Scotland (and the rest of the UK) but I think we are different to most other countries which is odd because I am pretty sure Father’s Day is the same as most other places (in June).

    I have to say I have not that fussed about the Tower of Joy. I wasn’t in the books and I am not really in the show, it’s only how the news affects a certain someone I am interested in.

    Anyway KL, Dany and Arya’s plots seem to be kicking up a gear which should be good as well as the Castle Black stuff.

    This is the first Monday I have worked since the Season started so gonna have to wait to watch it at 9pm tomorrow night (and pray that I avoid spoilers!)

  120. Pounce,

    My point exactly. I think his full ToJ scene will be in Sackheims episode. But i disargree with what you said. We WILL find out soon, but NOT soon enough!!

  121. Anyone kno if there are like bars or something in Massachusetts that people get together to watch?

  122. Khal Daniel:
    Does anyone have a link to share of all the content from the books pertaining to the tower of joy and related events such as the tournament with Rhaegar and Lyanna? I mean specifically the book text not the theories or people talking about all we know about it. I would like to refresh by reading the book material and can’t find a site where someone put it all together to be read.

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tower_of_Joy

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tourney_at_Harrenhal

    ahh Ginevra beat me to it. But just know that there is very little actual book material on the Tower of Joy. Most of the stuff online is everyone’s theories. There’s remarkably little info in the books about the most talked about theory in the fandom 🙂

  123. Khal Daniel,

    I’m leaning towards Episode 5. They will make it a cliffhanger because you know…that three eyed raven likes to troll the audience. Also the picture above is kind of a spoiler if you think about it.

    I have to say that it doesn’t bother me all that much, it will be less confusing for casual viewers to understand the situation and speculate about what could happen in that tower.

  124. Am hoping for a ToJ open and then Jon Snow getting up off the table

    2 hours to go for me!

  125. Eck:
    ArrySnow,

    Mother’s Day was in March this year in Scotland (and the rest of the UK) but I think we are different to most other countries which is odd because I am pretty sure Father’s Day is the same as most other places (in June).

    Yes I think that is the case with father’s day, I remember the Tywin/Tyrion scene in “The Chidren” aired on father’s day in the UK as well as the US. No idea why mother’s day is different.

    As for TOJ, i’m excited because of the effect that the revelations will have on the story, but personally I don’t need every detail to be the same as the books. It would be impossibe to recreate the scene from Ned’s fever dream when we are watching it through Bran, but if the mood is right and the dialogue strong it should be wonderful, edge-of-your-seat viewing.

  126. We have tornadic storms heading our way but I swear by the old gods and the new I will somehow watch this episode tonight!

  127. Eck,

    Father’s day here is actually 5.8 …..

    And i really want to see more of Arya 🙂 can’t wait for her revenge trip.

  128. I won’t be able to watch it live as always, living in Europe sucks when you’re a GoT fan…

  129. Pounce,

    One of the perks of working with my brother – he knows I won’t be working mondays during GOT season after staying up til 3am to watch!! 🙂

  130. Pounce,
    you actually can. sky has an online offer called skyonline (or checkout the skywebsite for it) u pay 10€ a month and have unlimited access to all series including livestreaming them when they air. you can watch as often as you want (And no i havnt watched home for like 10x already…)

  131. Gfx:
    We have tornadic storm heading our way but I swear by the old gods and the new I will somehow watch this episode tonight!

    Don’t forget EuronDrowned God too. 🙂

    You will find a way. Good luck and be safe!

  132. ArrySnow:
    Pounce,
    you actually can. sky has an online offer called skyonline (or checkout the skywebsite for it) u pay 10€ a month and have unlimited access to all series including livestreaming them when they air. you can watch as often as you want (And no i havnt watched home for like 10x already…)

    Sure. You haven’t. LOL 🙂

  133. Angela,

    of course not! What do u think of me? It is not as if i wouldn’t watch it all over again just waiting for Euron to say I am the Storm and grin like a maniac after murdering his brother…

  134. J Lee,

    Unless his reaction is just something like, “wow,” I’ll pass it along, hoping others may enjoy it as much as I expect I will. 🙂

  135. Pounce,

    i don’t even go to sleep anymore… ha´ve to be at uni by 9am and at the stables by 4pm. i don’t get home until like 8pm but then it is off to bed immedeately…

  136. With the disclaimer that I’m aware there is ample evidence that the Tower of Joy will in fact be split up over more than this upcoming episode…I am really all in on them showing all of it to us tonight, both for internal storytelling reasons and for external, non-story related reasons.

    I just cannot see a plausible scenario in which Bloodraven would only be showing Bran the fight outside of the Tower and not the far more substantive events that take place inside of it. A few folks have put forth the idea that Bloodraven’s comments to Bran in the last episode indicate that he can only stay in them for a certain amount of time, for reasons not explained to us the audience. My take on hearing the phrasing of why he pulled Bran out of the Winterfell vision was not because there is some arbitrary time limit to these visions, but rather that, much like warging into Summer, if Bran is not careful, he could be so enamored with his powers that he forgets to use them for the greater good.

    Provided I’m not totally incorrect about that, what purpose is there for Bloodraven showing Bran the fight outside the Tower and then ending the vision? Westeros has had any number of fantastic sword fights in its history, why pick this one if it is only to see the fight? It makes far more sense that he’d be taking Bran to the Tower of Joy so that he can show him a very important fact relating to the oncoming threat of the White Walkers, i.e. Jon Snow is not who you think he is, and he is very important in the coming struggle.

    And for non-story reasons, it’s Mother’s Day here in the US. Come on!

    I’ll withhold my judgement until the Tower of Joy is clearly wrapped up to give it a final verdict, but sitting here now on the precipice of Episode 3, I can’t think of a good reason to split up this reveal.

  137. George: 1. The conversation between Roose and Ramsey in episode one established that they know Stannis is dead and that his body was found.
    2. I suppose this might be possible, but if it is, she won’t find out until later in the season.
    3.Yep, this is entirely possible.

    1) Misdirection – Stannis is still alive, they didn’t show Brienne taking his head – why?
    2) I don’t expect this plot so early in the season, but, it’s coming – Sansa tells Theon, “he comes to my room every night” – why?
    3) Only hoping to have a Jon Snow who wouldn’t think twice about executing Olly and Thorne.

  138. ArrySnow:
    Angela,

    of course not! What do u think of me? It is not as if i wouldn’t watch it all over again just waiting for Euron to say I am the Storm and grin like a maniac after murdering his brother…

    Totally. That would be so awful. I would never do that either. I would never do another rewatch to pass the time before the new episode. I am not doing that right now. 🙂

  139. ygritte:
    steffan,

    I wouldn’t object to watching Jon Snow have sexy time. But somehow I don’t think that will be the first thing on his mind Eventually though him and Mel probably will.

    OMG – I hope not.

  140. ArrySnow,

    You’re brave 🙂 I can’t risk my job, I will probably take a day off for Episode 9 though !

    I wish you all a great episode, x

  141. HousePotterz,

    I have no real preference as to whether it’s split or delivered in one go, but as to the reasons for a split, what if Bloodraven intends to show it all but they’re interrupted and pulled out of the vision?? Could be a way for the show to “drag out” the reveals.

  142. Gfx:
    Angela,

    Haha thanks! We have a storm shelter, I’m more concerned about losing power

    You’re welcome. It would suck if you lost power and unable to watch tonight.

  143. I know a lot of people think it’s going to be split but considering it’s a Mother’s Day episode I think we should finally meet the mum

  144. HousePotterz:
    My take on hearing the phrasing of why he pulled Bran out of the Winterfell vision was not because there is some arbitrary time limit to these visions, but rather that, much like warging into Summer, if Bran is not careful, he could be so enamored with his powers that he forgets to use them for the greater good.

    There’s that, but there’s also the fact that he’s not truly or fully there. Not unlike warging into Summer, he’s experiencing things on a different level but his living body is still where he left it. Feeding while warged in Summer, the direwolf gains sustenance but Bran does not. So not only does he lose the human part of him the longer he’s ‘inside’ Summer, his body is weakening. With his visions there could be a similar danger. He may find too much enjoyment in what he’s seeing that he no longer wants to return to his current reality where his loved ones are dead.

  145. Kingbreaker,

    That is a worrying thought. I feel like they may end with a close up on

    Neds shocked face with Lyana in the background saying “promise me Ned promise me.” Then as it cuts to black you hear a baby begin to cry.
  146. Sansa’s Knight:
    I know a lot of people think it’s going to be split but considering it’s a Mother’s Day episode I think we should finally meet the mum

    Maybe Bran gets a glimpse of her inside TOJ. TER pulls him out because it is been too long in the vision. This prompts Bran to go back later to see more and we see him start going against the TER instructions.
  147. Dee:
    So will episode 3 be even better than what we have seen so far?

    Yes 🙂 First episode with Jon up and about!

  148. I think we may have an early hint about if ToJ will give us the big reveal this episode or not based on the “Previously On”. If there’s clips of Ned saying he promises to tell Jon about his mother, then they’ll probably answer the question. If not, and the clips are exclusively contained to Robert and Lyanna, then they may withhold the revelation for Ep5. Again, with me, I’m agnostic about which they way they go, as long as it’s executed well and not rushed.

  149. Laura,

    Yeah I really only remember Ned’s Fever dreams but it’s crazy how little material we have in one of the biggest speculations of modern literature

  150. Pounce,

    Same here. GoT is at 3:00 AM, I have to stand/get up at 6:00 AM to be at work shortly before 8:00 AM. Life…

  151. Gotta go host trivia in a couple minutes but I’ll be back tomorrow to bask in all the Tower of Joygasms…enjoy this one folks!

  152. I can’t see them splitting the ToJ. It would ruin the momentum of the scene I think. I guess their execution of it would make all the difference but that’s just my initial thought

  153. A couple of thoughts.

    First, everyone here has been getting me emotionally sort-of okay with the fact that they will probably split up ToJ into a few scenes all week-so thank you. I DO however think-at the very least-there has to be something that happens at the end as a reason for us to want to come back. A baby’s cry? A scream in the tower?
    Then even people who have no idea what’s happening will be like “WHO IS IN THE TOWER?” for weeks right along with us.
    Or they could just show the whole thing-and that would be a happy surprise. But probably not, I know.

    Second Eddie seems really pumped. My husband and I were discussing his tweets and of course he’s excited. I wonder if he got the role and was telling a friend about his smallish part on the most popular show in the world and they went, “Who ya playing?”
    “Um…it says young Ned?”
    “WHAT? Ned Stark? Holy shit. What were you doing? In the script?”
    “Chatting up this knight. Arthur something?”
    “OMG ARTHUR DAYNE?! The Sword of the Morning?!”
    “That sounds right. Why are you turning purple? It’s not like I’m in the most important scene in the series that connects like 3 prophecies and relates to several wars and puts everything into perspective for multiple main characters or anything.”

    And third-Happy Mother’s Day.
    I’ve been trying to figure out what could happen this evening based on the episode title Oathbreaker and the mothers on the show.

    Cersei
    Gilly
    Cat-because we can’t rule anything out this year
    Dany-of dragons
    Olenna-grandmother counts
    Lya–Whoever Jon’s mom was via flashback.

    But I can’t think because ToJ! “Now it begins”

  154. Ghosts Lunch,

    I agree. Even though this is a huge scene I don’t think it’s best put at the end. Leading the episode similar to the Cersei flashback would be perfect

  155. RG,

    Your imagined conversation with Eddie Eyre and his friend gave me a good laugh, thanks!

    In the books, as Ned is fighting, he hears Lyanna screaming his name from the tower. I think that would work to whet the appetite for what we’ll see next, whether in this episode, or in an upcoming episode.
  156. Now it begins and the hype starts
    We hope for joy with all our hearts
    We know too well how this game is played
    We know our emotions will be flayed

    We’ll pray for Sansa, Brienne and Pod
    We’ll drool over Jon and that incredible bod
    We’ll travel with Bran and the three eyed crow
    And look for the faces of people we know

    Osha, the hound, Thoryos of Myr
    We’ll listen for names we long to hear
    We’ll remember the past when Ned had a head
    And think of the future with a touch of dread

    A blind girl who says she has no name
    Will always be Arya just the same
    Rickon and Shaggy may soon come along
    He may be a gift but we hope we are wrong

    The mountain is bashing
    Jaime is dashing
    Cersei is in a funk

    Tommen’s a wimp
    Myrcella’s a stiff
    And Tyrion is getting drunk

    Gendry’s still rowing
    A storm is blowing
    The dragons are flying free

    Jorah’s still searching
    Euron is lurking
    And Dany wants to flee

    Yara is swearing
    Theon is wearing
    Clothes that really reek

    Hotpie has a cot
    Dorne had a plot
    That really was just too weak

    Winter is coming there can be no doubt
    We will toast the season drinking our stout
    In steins with lions, wolves, and stags
    Or even in bottles in brown paper bags

    No matter the outcome, no matter the end
    We’ll come back again, same time next weekend
    And with tears of joy and with tears of sorrow
    We really can’t wait to read recaps tomorrow

  157. Dee,

    I’d be over the moon if it’s as good as last week! I’m hoping Arya’s story makes some progress, plus any more gimpses of Euron Greyjoy – I have Oberyn levels of giddy excitement for that character/actor (hopefully he sticks around a lot longer!)

  158. About an hour left!

    Can’t wait. I’m afraid of the episode not being on par with last week’s and being close to the premiere in terms of entertainment, but I’m confident enough that it’ll still be eventful and greatly paced in good ways like “Home”.

    Every weekend feels like Christmas, and I freaking love it nonetheless.

  159. I was re-watching episode 1 today and I noticed how the Sand Snake who uses a whip was prepared to use that weapon inside a small confined room on that ship. lel, D & D never ceases to amaze me.

    Lets hope Euron Greyjoy’s badassery continues tonight. I was very encouraged by what I saw in episode 2.

  160. Michael,
    This, this is what i fear. mainly for the point that it might make the whole story telling of it a bit clunky (I’ve seen arguments that liken it to the book’s way of doing it but George’s hand i find is far more eloquent and methodical than that of the show-runners). But also for the fact the wait will be agonising!

  161. God why am I dreading this episode!?!? I just want Rickon to come out of this ok and for the Smalljon to not be a damned traitor. GAH why must I care for minor characters! 🙁

  162. J Lee:
    Kingbreaker,

    I’m so fearful of this, but I don’t believe they’ll do it. This season is hitting the ground running in a crazy way, so I hope and believe ToJ will follow suit.

    One can only hope, but haven’t we all developed a healthy scepticism by now?!

  163. I’m kind of hoping they’ll hold off on the big ToJ reveal until episode 5. Because episode 5 falls on birthday and getting confirmation of

    R+L=J

    would be the best present ever! I’ll still be excited if it happens tonight though.

    I’m also really looking forward to catching up with Sam and Gilly, although it’s probably just going to be a catch-up scene and nothing big.

  164. What is dead may never die! Staying up till 2am over here in the UK because I am so hyped up I couldn’t sleep even if I wanted to!

  165. I don’t know man I don’t know!
    I’m afraid D&D will ruin the sence
    Here’smy thoughts :
    I think during the fight Bran will yell “Father!”
    And Ned will hear him and turn his head, and that’s when Bloodraven touchs Bran’s shoulder and get back to the cave and we will get the line ” the past is already written, the ink is dry”

  166. Lyanna_Targaryen:
    For Mother’s Day, I asked my husband to take our kid to the movies so I could watch at airtime in a quiet house. I’m basically a monster.

    I think I’ll film myself while I watch, just to see if I look as ridiculous as I feel watching this season (I hope it’s not just me).

    MUCH EXCITE. VERY HYPE.

    I LMAO when I read this.. not a monster.. just a huge fan!! 😉 Im right there with you but its on at 9:00 and my little one is in bed by 7:30 every night.. so that gives me ample time to get my game face on.. haha

  167. Mother’s Day & my birthday (on Cinco De Mayo) festivities kept me away for the whole day/weekend. And I am like trying to cram study reading these posts and decided to just say F’it and get myself geared up for the show to begin.. so … that being said HAPPY MOTHER’S DAY to all the Mother’s here and ….. I saw a loin cloth may fall off a said member of the Stark family?? OMGosh. Im sooooooo stoked for this show.. got to do my pee break (teehee) and get my glass of Pinot Noir and set/record this episode bc I forgot last week and almost had a meltdown thinking that I wasn’t going to get to re-watch it a 100 times.

  168. I am not that worried about the ToJ scene. Although I think the diaglog for this scene is very important, much more then the whole fight.

    I am more worried about Jon’s personality now that he is returned from the dead, I hope he is not too dark.

  169. Where do people think ToJ will be split at? What if the episode ended as soon as Ned says “No, Now it ends”.

  170. Laura,

    Another consequence of WoW not yet appearing is that it gives D&D excuse to cut the story to the barest bone and make up story to facilitate condensing. If WoW were published, fans would clamor for more of the story to be included in the show, and it would be harder to justify leaving out published material from the show.

    So lack of WoW not only postpones book readers’ enjoyment, it shortens the show.

  171. Darkstar:
    Lyanna_Targaryen,

    Ha ha. Every week I warn my son he better not bother me unless he is bleeding PROFUSELY or on fire OR HE WILL FEEL MY WRATH.

    Evil mama.

    Happy Mothers Day to all.?

    Lol.. yes and I tell my husband to NOT say one word or ask one thing during the show bc he’s always gone (working/traveling) and hasn’t watched any of the shows but two… so when he’s home I told him that there is NO talking allowed… I know that is mean but I just can’t take one second away from the screen bc I need to make sure I don’t miss anything..

  172. Ginevra: Note, book spoilers abound here, but this is a very informative site on the books.

    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tower_of_Joy
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaegar_Targaryen
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lyanna_Stark
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tourney_at_Harrenhal
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree

    If you have the books, you can also search the cited chapters at the bottom of each webpage for more details.If you have Kindle versions of the books, you may even find more references to the ToJ, Lyanna, and Rhaegar by searching.

    I was MIA this weekend for the most part and ALL of today… can you summarize the content today for me… lol .. JK.. enjoy the show and lets get this Skype up and going for next week.. I think Dee said that she would partake too?

  173. Rewatching last week’s episode, again. Ramsay just said “Castle Black isn’t defended on the southern side.” Except for 5,000 Wildings you don’t seem to know about yet, dudes, and every one of them is angry as fuck and looking for someone to squish.

    Also, a question that just occurred to me. If Karstark believes the North needs new blood, then why are they, or some other long-established Northern family not vying for that position? What hold do the Bolton’s have on everyone that the northern lords don’t just stamp them out and take over?

    I’m loving seeing Sansa this season, more than any other season. Maybe because she’s away from all the jerks that had their claims on her before. Hope she eventually finds someone to love and who loves her properly. Yeah, ok, I have a bit of a romantic streak.

    Hmmm, I’ve always wondered what the true purpose of was of making so much of Pod’s sexual prowess. We all took it as a joke, or some sort of comic filler, but what if it wasn’t. If we go on the theory that there are no wasted lines or scenes … isn’t Pod supposed to be from a titled family? And near Sansa’s age? And somewhat of a hero to her for helping save her. Anybody want to ship Sansa and Pod with me? I’m liking the idea more and more. After all, her first man didn’t touch her because he was busy loving Shae; her second is a rough, selfish psycho, maybe the third will be juuuust right.

  174. Kingbreaker,

    Dan and Dave have their moments, i have my own vision o0f how it goes down based on what GRRM wrote and undoubtedly it will be massively different. But different doesn’t always mean worse. We only have 10 minutes left to wait now :D.

  175. Jack Bauer 24,

    There has to be more dire wolves than Ghost. It makes sense to see Rickon with his wolf and we will certainly see a certain pack later on…

  176. Thronetender,

    Theon said hes going “Home” as well last episode. Maybe hell be there for the kingsmoot. Or maybe his home is at winterfell and hell try go back and kill Ramsay. Thats what i believe may happen who knows.

  177. Thronetender,

    I’ve been wondering if the Children of the Forest’s comment to Meera that Bran will need her meant there was something romantic down the road?

  178. Hodors Bastard,

    I was also wondering about it… I just rewatched ep2 and the actress who played Lyanna could be the slightly older Lyanna as well… She had something ambiguous about her age…

  179. RG,

    Thanks for the laugh!

    Anyway, Eddie Eyre is not young Ned, Robert Aramayo is.

    Luke Robert is Dayne, so I really don’t know who Eddie is on the TOJ (Reed? Hightower?)

  180. Felt tired at one. But I don’t now. BRING IT!!! 😀

    She bringing back Jon again as I type this HYPE HYPE HYPE!!! Have fun y’all…

  181. Everyone enjoy the episode!!!

    For those of you talking about tornadoes…

    Stay safe, and I hope, at the very least, you can watch it on your phone from the root-cellar!

    …And now it begins…:) 🙂 🙂

  182. Ravyn,

    I’m a romantic too. I have a lot of ships that will probably never happen.
    Pod and Sansa…or Sansan…I go back and forth but I have thought about both. lol
    Bran and Meera
    Arya and Gendry is a big one
    Brienne and Jaime of course (We can’t choose who we ship)

    Speaking of mother’s day, my mom has only one ship since she read the books and she will not give up until the last one is written. Jon and Dany. She doesn’t even care if they’re related lol

    OMG 2 minutes!

  183. Okay, I’m out for now. My toddler doesn’t go to sleep for another hour so I have to avoid the internet until I can watch it.

  184. Previously on shows us Lyanna. The scene with Sansa and Littlefinger in the crypts…….

  185. Lyanna_Targaryen:
    For Mother’s Day, I asked my husband to take our kid to the movies so I could watch at airtime in a quiet house. I’m basically a monster.

    I think I’ll film myself while I watch, just to see if I look as ridiculous as I feel watching this season (I hope it’s not just me).

    MUCH EXCITE. VERY HYPE.

    Monster? Nope. Brilliant? Yes! I know what I’m asking for on Fathers Day.

  186. No Rickon on the “previous on”. Maybe he isn’t introduced as the gift this week?

  187. So they think Jon is some kid of God and PtwP mentioned for the first time? TOJ is also in this episode. Interesting. We’ll get that also with Daeny too for another parallel.

  188. Ron Mexico:
    No Rickon on the “previous on”.Maybe he isn’t introduced as the gift this week?

    If they showed Rickon it would be too obvious.

  189. So Tower of Joy was a massive let down 🙁 Very disappointed. I am actually aghast at how they managed to botch one of the greatest moments in all of the books.

  190. HE SAID SWORD OF THE MORNING! SUCH A GREAT FIGHT BUT NOOOOOOOOOO.

    Howland Reed finally shown on screen. After that scream I wanted to see Lyanna!!!!!

  191. Al Swearengen:
    So Tower of Joy was a massive let down Very disappointed. I am actually aghast at how they managed to botch one of the greatest moments in all of the books.

    Aaaand it starts….

  192. Al Swearengen:
    So Tower of Joy was a massive let down Very disappointed. I am actually aghast at how they managed to botch one of the greatest moments in all of the books.

    I’m wondering why exactly you think it was “botched”.

  193. Anyone besides me having trouble watching on HBO Now? Every time it starts to play it freezes and sounds like its fast forwarding. ???

  194. “From your perspective this is a problem.:” Scenes with Varys are always great.

  195. So the TOJ was not how I pictured it from the books, but it was still a great action scene. Very nicely done.

  196. George: I’m wondering why exactly you think it was “botched”.

    – Rushed pace
    – Butchered dialouge
    – Sloppy fight choregraphy
    – Horrible acting. Young Ned was atrocious
    – No dawn
    – Cheesy moment with Bran

    It was amateurish and low budget. I am sorry but it was really bad.

    Jon’s scene with Davos though was excellent.

  197. Darn, I was hoping Tommen was going to pull a Ramsay Bolton on the High Sparrow.

  198. Time’s running out and we still have Winterfell. Are we not going back to the Wall?

  199. Mark my words, as I said before the faceless men are going to have Arya kill Jon snow 🙁

  200. OMG!!! Noooooo!!!! Fuck you, Umber!!! Shaggy!! *weeps*

    Kill them all, Jon. KILL THEM ALL.

  201. Oh Jon 🙁 You’re just as beautiful as ever.

    How anticlimactic they didn’t even show us Alliser or Olly’s surprise, no regrets or last words from the boy, hanging..huh. Left me with a sad feeling, the end of this episode.

  202. My watch has ended!!!!!

    Bran won’t be in the tree forever.
    Shaggy Dog!
    Jon did his duty, although I thought he’d swing the sword four times.

  203. I haven’t read the above yet – but my first reaction is disappointment with this episode. Perhaps I need a few rewatches, and read what everyone else is saying to get a clearer picture of what is bothering me.

    It was dark, the music was brooding, everything was slow motion. It was like they were all underwater. Well, yes now his watch has ended Let the battles begin I suppose

  204. Sansa is going to arrive and Jon is gone 🙁 noooooo

    Shaggy dog and rickon omg

    And that flashback wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  205. Preview for next episode…Sansa and company at CB! LF sighting! Ser Loras sighting!

  206. Simon,

    God, i hope so, i’m trying to think of a way to fake shaggydog’s head but… anyway if it isn’t a plot i want frey and umber’s pies

  207. Satisfying ending, and not with a cliffhanger but more of a set-up, which is awesome!

  208. Jack Bauer 24,

    Just a feeling I have. It is like George to have it building up to that. Her arc means something and it’s so dark and twisted just leaves me with a feeling, the fact they made her and Jon’s relationship special, and if he ends up being the Lol champion (lightbringer) that would be the enemy to the god of (death.)

  209. I enjoyed the episode, but I just have to sit for a few…I can’t think about anything other than Shaggydog.

    Fuck the SmallJon.

  210. Jon going with Wildlings. Sansa, Brienne and Pod entering some place but it can’t be Castle Black. Wun Wun tore the gates down

  211. I’m surprised I though we’d get Sansa to CB this week.

    It’s good they’ve got through the training though now arya can be sent on a mission.

  212. Fuckin’ Umbers.

    Shaggydog!!!! Fuck!

    Except for Tyrion’s silliness, excellent episode.

    Great ending.

  213. So next time we’re getting the Darth Sansa and Darth Jon meeting? Revenge of the Siths!!!

  214. If next week Ramsay announces he’s going to marry Rickon I’ll never watch this show again.

  215. Jack Bauer 24,

    Good question. The previews show nothing of him. Will he be missing next episode? God I hope not. Kit said it’s his biggest season for filming so how can they have him sit out a 3rd episode?

  216. Ok this episode sadly felt boring …. The tower of joy scene was awesome I doubt I’ve ever seen such a well choreographed sword fight but the rest of the episode was meh

    Looks like next weeks episode is gonna be super intense though … Which makes me think this episode like episode 1 was just a build up to next week

  217. I thought it was a nice episode, not one of the better ones I’ve seen, but still pretty good. I think this season just has a different feel to it so far and that’s not a bad thing at all. It’s a different season in many ways; finally passed the books, Jon snow resurrection plot, etc.

    Tower of joy was interesting…we’ll have to see the second half of it to truly rate it….i wish they had shown it all in 1 episode.

  218. Al Swearengen: – Rushed pace
    – Butchered dialouge
    – Sloppy fight choregraphy
    – Horrible acting. Young Ned was atrocious
    – No dawn
    – Cheesy moment with Bran

    It was amateurish and low budget. I am sorry but it was really bad.

    Jon’s scene with Davos though was excellent.

    Oh, bugger off! That was awesome, and you’re a c**t.

  219. Shit was doooooope Dayne was fucking shit up left and right…and damn did they find the perfect actor for young Ned…fucking casting on this show and the actors are unbelievable…

  220. AMAZING. Pure perfection. Kit was amazing, these were some of his best acting scenes. This episode is why I love this show.

  221. Man what a great episode XD
    Tower of joy fight
    Jon Snow
    Varys interrogating that woman about the sons of the harpy
    The small council scenes where pretty funny, and loved the Tyrion scene.
    Solid episode, glad they slowed things down after episode 2.
    Oh yea Reckon is the gift, saw that coming, poor shaggy dog…..
    time for some high class bitching 🙂
    Now it begins.

  222. Not particularly keen on that episode. Jon’s scenes pretty much were the only standouts.

    Tower of Joy, ugh. Why must you continue to disappoint me D & D 🙁

  223. I am not convinced that this head was Shaggydog’s… The whole scene seemed as if he was playing theatre

  224. Total mic drop by Jon.

    I TOLD you there’d be no reunion at CB!!!!!

    And that wasn’t Shaggy. 🙂

  225. Pigeon,

    I felt so bad for Jon when he was gazing up at Olly with so much feeling of sadness. The little shit couldn’t even say anything to the man who tried to be his mentor and big brother 🙁

  226. Ice Spider,
    Deesensfan,

    If y’all want to Skype next Sunday, the 15th, just add me on Skype. I’m ellensmyth.

    1. Sign in to Skype.
    2. Tap the more button at the top-right of the screen.
    3. Select Add people.
    4. Enter a contact’s name, Skype Name or email address.
    5. Select a contact from the list of results and tap Add to contacts.
    6. Edit the contact request message if you like (by tapping Edit) and tap Send.

    If anyone else is interested, let me know.

  227. Tbh the episode was kind of boring. The scenes at the Wall were the best as usual. Jonny boy carrying another season on his muscular back. I have to rewatch that first scene again…..for science.

  228. Al Swearengen:
    Not particularly keen on that episode. Jon’s scenes pretty much were the only standouts.

    Tower of Joy, ugh. Why must you continue to disappoint me D & D ?

    Get lost. This is a GoT fan site, for people who like the show. Go to westeros.org you wanker.

  229. The Umber (did they give his name) is taking the place of Wyman Manderley in the series, mark my words. Which means Shaggydog is still alive somewhere.

  230. Pigeon:
    Total mic drop by Jon.

    I TOLD you there’d be no reunion at CB!!!!!

    And that wasn’t Shaggy.

    I need more upbeat people like you just so i will stop feeling sick over rickon, osha and shaggy

  231. Al Swearengen: – Rushed pace
    – Butchered dialouge
    – Sloppy fight choregraphy
    – Horrible acting. Young Ned was atrocious
    – No dawn
    – Cheesy moment with Bran

    It was amateurish and low budget. I am sorry but it was really bad.

    Jon’s scene with Davos though was excellent.

    People like you just need to move to another planet where everything sucks because……

  232. The scene with the kids in the lab was a lot funnier than I was expecting (what I was expecting was a pile of dead kids). I wonder how many of them are already Varys’ Little Birds?

  233. Great episode and that was not an evil Jon he did his duty and executed traitors and he swung the sword.

  234. TOJ was awesome (and they made it VERY clear there is more we will see )

    I died a little when they showed Shaggy Dogs head..Osha is own borrowed time..Rickon just a little bit longer

    “My Watch has ended…” HELL YEA!!!

  235. Jehphg,

    I need more upbeat people like you just so i will stop feeling sick over rickon, osha and shaggy

    Ditto

  236. I think Jon will still be at Castle Black when Sansa arrives, and that is when he gets the pink letter from Ramsay.

  237. RIP the Stark line unless Bran and Meera procreate or something.

    Bran confirmed to not be a tree at the end of this!

  238. maybe the thing with the shaggydog head is like the hands of davos un whiteharbor in the books, just a fake, i really hope
  239. They think your some kind of God…. Im not… I know.. .I saw your pecker…. LMAO.. the shizit was funny!! Tormund is the effing man now …

  240. For those who thought it was boring are you kidding me?? Last episode was CRAZY. We needed a bit more slowly paced episode. We can’t have every moment of the show be about fights and deaths. The quiet dialogue parts are one of the main reasons why this show is SO GOOD. Stop whining please. I loved it.

  241. Sadly, I didn’t think too highly of this episode. It wasn’t bad per se, there were certainly a few really good scenes, but it just felt like too much set-up without enough pay-off. I know that’s always the show’s MO early in the seasons, but I think it should be moving quicker with so few episodes left overall.

    Also, I really wasn’t a fan of how the Tower of Joy went down. I know that’s mostly because its a scene I’ve built up in my head for literally 17 years now, so that’s not the show’s fault, but that doesn’t change how I feel.

  242. gewa76,

    It’s not my fault you seem to be unable to handle people who have differing opinions. Grow up and stop acting like a petulant child.

  243. If Jon is leaving where is Davos/Mel going and is Jon going to get a new outfit?

  244. dothrakian raven:
    Al Swearengen,

    Not again the choreography thing….

    Yep, the choreography thing. I’m willing to bet that most people making that comment have never even held an actual European sword before, let alone learned to fight with one in a theatrical setting.

  245. ash,

    I agree I don’t know what it was but this episode didn’t leave me feeling like I’d watched the most amazing thing ever … It almost felt they were dragging things out

  246. Geralt of Rivia:
    So they think Jon is some kid of God and PtwP mentioned for the first time? TOJ is also in this episode. Interesting. We’ll get that also with Daeny too for another parallel.

    OOO! I meant to mention that, too. Almost as soon as Jon is reborn, we get TPTWP!!!!

  247. Probably overall my favorite episode of the season.

    The Great:
    -Arya’s story
    -Bran flashback (Arthur Dayne fighting four guys with two swords was awesome)
    -Varys scene in throne room (reminder that Varys is a bad ass and isn’t just Tyrion’s insult stooge)
    -Winterfell meeting

    The Good:
    -Castleblack (went exactly as expected)
    -Dany

    The Bad:
    -Bizarre Tyrion, Misandei, and Greyworm scene
    -Some real bad dialogue spread throughout the episode
    -The King’s Landing stuff was clunky, not really a good scene in there
    -Sam and Gilly (surprise, though I liked how he’s dropping her off at Hornhill)

  248. RIP Shaggydog

    Best moment of the episode….

    The Mountain throwing shade at Jaime. LOL

  249. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
    I enjoyed the episode, but I just have to sit for a few…I can’t think about anything other than Shaggydog.

    Fuck the SmallJon.

    🙁 I am beside myself. Half of our Stark direwolves are gone. Motherfucking Scumbers!

    I loved the Arya scene. Who was The Waif trying to prod her into naming? The Waif?

    I loved the ToJ. The choreography was good to me. *shrugs*

    There was only one scene I disliked strongly and that was the Tyrion/Missandei/Grey Worm scene. It went on for way too long.

    Please baby Jesus, save Osha and Rickon – somehow, some way.

    Obviously Home is still the best ep this season. Home was a 10/10 for me. This one was about an 8/10 for me and the premiere was only about a 6/10.

    Wonder if my job will be cool if I call out to mourn Shaggydog?

  250. My totally unsullied husband thought it was a boring episode. I was disappointed that we didn’t get all of Tower of Joy but I guess they will finish that up when the time is right.

    I guess they tricked us with that picture of Thorne from this week’s episode, or it wasn’t from this episode at all. Of course, a rope around his neck would have been a dead giveaway. LOL

  251. It was a brilliant episode! Moody and dark, with great dialogues and excellent performances. At last an episode with politics, action and big surprises! In a way a great balance to the first two episodes. Most of the players were there preparing smoothly their next move.

  252. The first scene is some of the best acting I’ve seen on this show. The way Mel looked at Jon was like she was staring at a God lol.

  253. It;s Osha we should b worried about…Ramsay cnt kill Rickon yet…but without Shaggydog to protect, Osha is basically Reek now.

    PS: I don’t normally moan about the show, but now Ive got to – theyre overdoing it with torturing fanfavourites at the hands of that idiot.

  254. The Tower of Joy scene was terrific. The choreography excellent. Loved the Arya sequence, even if I’m getting tired with the syntax of the HoB&W. I loved how they subverted the death of Olly. Instead of a rah-rah bitch-is-dead moment, they reminded us that this was a child that Jon was executing. Very powerful.

    A lot of the rest of the episode felt a little disjointed to me. I think part of that is the Sam-Gilly and Dany scene was just a check in one, and the entire Tyrion stuff with Missandei and Grey Worm was just filler.

    Still, strong when it was strong, just a few too many soft moments for me.

  255. gewa76,

    I think he was watching the fanmade scene on YouTube instead of HBO. But, there will always be 1% who type up their negative comments in advance, and barely wait for the scene to hit enter.

  256. Ok, decent episode over all given the material that was covered. Not as refined as last week, but still a 6.5-7/10 on the high GoT scale.

    Complaints:

    I hate to be this spoilt, but ToJ….How can you start out with the exact dialogue from the books and then Dorne-ify it half way through?

    If you’re gonna start with “i looked for you on the trident”, you better well follow it up with “the kingsguard does not flee, then or now.” Not replace it with “Where’s my sister”? “Not your concern”.

    Also, @Al Swearingon is partially right – some of the script was god awful. Its like they don’t know what to say around Ramsay anymore, so half of the words out of Umber’s mouth are f#!#’s.

  257. Anyone else find it funny that a good chunk of episode titles we thought would be used have been popping up as dialogue?

  258. Flayed Potatoes:
    Tbh the episode was kind of boring. The scenes at the Wall were the best as usual. Jonny boy carrying another season on his muscular back. I have to rewatch that first scene again…..for science.

    Why is it that I seem to only like the CB scenes too? I mean seriously I am not even breathing again until they show goes back to CB. I love Sansa’s arc too but we didn’t get that this episode. Im sorry but Tyrion’s scenes even failed to entertain me this time. That whole feel between him and Missandei and Greyworm was just horrific…. Vary’s had to come in and save the day. And I can’t even begin to say how pissed I am they killed Shaggydog.. I mean is the carnage for the Starks EVER going to stop?

  259. great episode Jon’s ***spoiler*** “my watch has ended” line was the best and I am genuinely afraid for Rickon like these two scenes embody why I love this show and hate it equally.

  260. carbonUnit,

    Or I’ve just seen fight scenes that were executed with more finesse in other shows and movies. But no, GOT’s choreography is impeccable…..

    Arya’s scenes were choreographed better than ToJ.

  261. I really wish they’d spend more tone on fewer story lines each episode like they used to. It’d rather not see everyone every episode but feel like we got somewhere with the ones we did see.

  262. Reportedly, Shaggy’ last word was “Zoinks!”

    Wait, that was another show.

  263. Connor,

    My thoughts exactly. I doubt this kind of ‘fan’ would be satisfied with any representation of TOJ.

    People, it’s an adaptation – it’s never going to match what you imagined in your head when you read it, because it’s another artist’s rendering of the same story. Even if it’s not exact as one pictured it, can’t we all just be excited? They are finally telling this story! We all get to really see what happened that day, not just in GRRM oblique hints, but really see it.

    Tl;dr. Some fans need to simmer down.

  264. Lorien Mizar:
    DAMN YOU BLOODRAVEN AND YOUR STUPID RULES!!!!!

    Yeah, what does Bran do the rest of the day, besides 5 minutes of watching the past ? or is it like in Gravity, 1 hour equals one year in real life or whatever ?

  265. Simon,

    that’s just the thing i’m still trying to think of a way to fake it, a normal wolf wouldn’t do it because of the size so i’m lost, but i don’t really want to believe it is shaggy

  266. The fight scene at the Tower of Joy was great. Of course they’re going to string R+L=J out.

    Jonathan Pryce showed his acting chops. Gotta love Qyburn. Grey Worm has a sweet new outfit. Pretty sure they’re slowly setting up for CleganeBowl.

    I did miss Wun Wun. This appeared to be a low effects episode, guess they were saving money. Shocked they showed Olly hanging and hung. I’m none too happy about what’s in store for Rickon and Osha.

  267. Great episode!!! Much slower than the previous one but still great

    I wonder where Jon is going now that his watch has ended

  268. So the Karstarks and Umbers are with Ramsey, so that leave the Manderlys as the last large army in the north and the ones that will betray the Boltons.

    Jon and or Sansa via Davos will have the Mormonts and probably one or two other lesser houses like the Glovers or Cerwyns.

  269. Loved the ToJ scene, even though the dialogue had to be cut short – I was particulary happy they kept the beginning exactly as in the books. Even if Bran and BR came late into the scene, there was an eerie feel to the beginning.

    Loved the way everyone reacted to Jon’s return (except the mutineers). Especially Edd. I hope he becomes next LC.

    Was sad about Rickon, but if he is truly gonna die, I will console myself thinking that Rickon showed signs of growing into a bad ruler by letting Freys inside the crypts, being aggressive etc (I know it is very cruel to say , I almost sound like Randyll Tarly now).

    I don’t care for anyone in KL anymore. I hope to see the Faith and the Iron Throne destroy each other.

    Varys’s actions make Dany sound even more like an evil invader. Why don’t they leave Mereen to Mereenese and sail to Westeros? I seriously doubt Dany will be able to setup democratic regimes in every city of Esssos.

    My favorite part from (other than ToJ) from this ep: Arya’s storyline. A bit disappointed that she is still not a warg, but getting better at fighting blind without warg-cheating makes her progress more remarkable. Way to go, girl!

    In the trailer, Jaqen says ‘a girl is given a second chance. There will not be a third’. Now, what Arya failed doing in her first chance was to carry out an assassination as instructed. So maybe she will get a new target in the coming episodes? In TWoW Mercy sample chapter ,

    many readers speculate that she is on the drama company on a mission rather than training.
  270. This is just a TV Show … Don’t cry, don’t cry … poor Shaggydog!!!!!!. … crying here.
    First step: Denial.
    Please, tell me it wasn’t the real Shaggydog … WTF happened with the Umbers??? … so daddy died too and the terrible children joined forces????? So, those awful spoilers about episode 9 seem true now … I’m getting bored of Ramsay. I hope Rickon wargs into the dogs and kills them all … Please, tell me Rickon has learnt to warg…
    The acting was great this episode … Kit and Liam were so great … I love the TOJ flashback … short but great. They should have invested a little more money in Dawn.

  271. Ginevra,

    Mel said it. Like it wasn’t Stannis I think and we’ll get that for sure with Daeny too. What if they make them brother and sister? I know, George said that they were born 8-9 months apart but what if. Just thinking.

  272. LatrineDiggerBrian:
    Probably overall my favorite episode of the season.

    The Great:
    -Arya’s story
    -Bran flashback (Arthur Dayne fighting four guys with two swords was awesome)
    -Varys scene in throne room (reminder that Varys is a bad ass and isn’t just Tyrion’s insult stooge)
    -Winterfell meeting
    -Castleblack (went exactly as expected)

    The Good:
    -Dany
    -The King’s Landing stuff was clunky but decent, Qyburn assuming control of the little birds!

    The Bad:
    -Bizarre Tyrion, Misandei, and Greyworm scene
    -Some real bad dialogue spread throughout the episode
    -Sam and Gilly (surprise, though I liked how he’s dropping her off at Hornhill)

    I like that assessment…although I moved CB to the top and KL to the middle. 🙂

  273. outdoorcats:
    The Umber (did they give his name) is taking the place of Wyman Manderley in the series, mark my words. Which means Shaggydog is still alive somewhere.

    I hope you’re right but how could they surrender their liege lord to a madman if that’s the case? That’s putting an awful lot of trust in Ramsay doing the “right” thing (e.g. using Rickon as leverage) rather than his usual m.o.

  274. Someone,

    Pretty sure they’re slowly setting up for CleganeBowl.

    Jaime mentioning something about trial by combat was most promising. I was watering some of my plants during that scene and missed some of the dialogue. Re-run in 2 minutes!

  275. I’m mostly in agreement with everyone here in having a hard time caring about anything other than Jon and the north storyline.

  276. 3 direwolves left now… Poor Shaggydog. Sadly, I was much more attached to Shaggydog, than I am to Rickon. The Umber guy was fantastic though, and I might be in the minority, but I liked young Ned.

    Dany’s storyline bored me tonight, and I’m a big Darnerys fan.

    Tyrion’s chat with Greyworm and Missandei didn’t do much for me.

    The first 2 episodes were epic, and while this was a good episode, it certainly wasn’t as exciting.

    Can’t wait for next week.

  277. Al Swearengen,

    Yes you obviously have seen many fights in your telly but this is hardly a convincing argument. The question is what do you know about fight-choreography…

  278. SansaStar,

    There’s plenty of previous scenes that have matched/surpassed my expections. “Dracarys” for example. Why is it a sin to express my disappointment? Must I lie and pretend I was satisfied?

    People around here need to relax. I mean ffs, I was elated with episode 2 and even praised Euron’s debut. Y’all seem unable to handle criticism and live in this fantasy land where every single episode is perfect.

  279. Jehphg,

    We won’t know until the battle of the bastard. I do however suspect all that talk about not swearing an oath is significant.

    The unversed are now free to pick sides. Witnessing Ramsey in action may force their hands.

  280. Lord Umber did not kneel. Shaggydog is not dead (his head couldn’t be so small, having Ghost in comparison).
    Rumors are saying that Umber is actually “betraying” Ramsey in order to put the Starks back as the North protectors.
    Again, these are rumors and I really hope so! Rickon plot from the books cannot be wasted like that by the show. I have hope!
    The North Remembers.

  281. By the looks of the preview, it seems Sansa and Theon took horses from the dead Bolton soldiers, since Sansa Brienne and Pod all are mounted when they reach Castle Black. Can’t wait for Jon-Sansa interactions. IIRC, the only time they shared screen together was when the Starks welcomed Robert to Winterfell.

  282. LF next week and Ser Loras!

    Still no Lancel sighting….

    And Arya name dropped the Hound and Walder Frey!

  283. Did Arthur Dayne said something about a Prince being there?…Did i hear that?.

    This episode was a little slow, is the weakest so far.

  284. Ice Spider: Why is it that I seem to only like the CB scenes too? I mean seriously I am not even breathing again until they show goes back to CB. I love Sansa’s arc too but we didn’t get that this episode. Im sorry but Tyrion’s scenes even failed to entertain me this time. That whole feel between him and Missandei and Greyworm was just horrific…. Vary’s had to come in and save the day. And I can’t even begin to say how pissed I am they killed Shaggydog.. I mean is the carnage for the Starks EVER going to stop?

    Tyrion, Missandei and GW have no chemistry….which is weird because Peter is one of those actors who seems to have good chemistry with everyone.

    We’re getting Jon in episode 4 right? HBO is so stingy with the previews lmao. I enjoy his storyline so much too. I literally get palpitations whenever we get a scene at CB because it’s so intense lol.

    I’m pissed as well about the whole thing with Rickon and Shaggy. Bran needs to come back south and save us. Smalljon acting all outraged about Wildlings when he didn’t even send help to defend CB in season 4….

  285. Al Swearengen:
    gewa76,

    It’s not my fault you seem to be unable to handle people who have differing opinions. Grow up and stop acting like a petulant child.

    I’m sorry you can’t deal with people calling you a c**t when you’re a c**t. The ToJ scene was objectively awesome, and anybody who thinks otherwise can go to the other site and bitch to their heart’s content. This is a site for people who actually enjoy the show. We’re sick of whiners like you, as if you know anything about fight choreography. Wait, let me guess; you’re the head choreographer of your local LARP group. Go fap to the YouTube fan film.

  286. Cregan:
    Any chance Umber is conning Bolton along with Rickon and Osha?

    It can be that this is the show’s fake Arya, I hope so … but Shaggy and Osha …

  287. I thought that head was too small to be a direwolf, but then again, there wasn’t really a frame of reference… I’m going to buy into the whole “Umbers are faking being on the Boltons’ side” idea and that that was just a normal, albeit large, wolf’s head. Umber’s reasoning for abandoning the Starks seemed a little thin. Jon was a bastard, not a Stark. I don’t feel this is enough of a motivation to abandon age-old tradition. “The North remembers,” is a message passionately repeated in the books/show, yet so far, other than a child’s goading letter to Stannis and an old serving lady’s promise, we’ve seen no evidence of it. There is more honour in the north than is being portrayed, I’m sure of it!

    I hope so anyway!

    All in all, a somewhat anticlimactic episode (too much hype I think!), but I still really enjoyed it. I’ve read the books a few times, but am far from a book purist, as I saw the show first and am madly in love with it! So I don’t mind changes. I loved the fight scene in the TOJ scene. Interesting as well to see that Bran can make his presence known even though he’s witnessing the past. Makes you wonder if he’s had a part to play in past events that we will only just now find out about.

    Nice to see Arya’s story picking up. I’ll be looking forward to seeing her back to kicking ass next week. I’m 50/50 as to whether she has really become no one or not at this point and if she has, how long it will take for her to become Arya again, as that’s obviously going to happen.

    Sad not to see Brienne, Sansa, Pod and Theon, though judging by preview we’re getting them next week.

    Kit just keeps getting better. He had me hanging on his every word. I love the ending! We all suspected/knew he would leave the night’s watch, but to hear him say the line “My watch has ended,” was great. He looks so different with shorter hair and no massive cloak.

    So another week to wait on tenterhooks. More Jon Snow next week please!!

  288. Laura,

    The waif was prodding her to name The Red Woman, as that will be her mission. Remember, Mel saw death in her and said they would meet again.

  289. Hopefully this means Ghost is safe for this season and not anymore direwolf deaths. Still poor Shaggy. Rickon is done this season. So see it.

  290. Laura,

    I think the waif knows her days are numbered with Arya… she is going to off that chick once she has decided she doesn’t need the FM anymore.

  291. Simon,

    Oh yes, i did notice that too, specially how he denied bending his knee
    Edit: i see your logic regarding the numbers too, it would be poetic in a way, but i’m a romantic and an animal lover, so i’m still reserving a little hope for poor shaggy

  292. I enjoyed this episode. TOJ was so good and I can’t wait to see the second half later. I was hoping they would show it after we heard the scream. I was thinking “Are they going to do show us?” It is okay.

    Off to bed. Good night all!

  293. I am surprised some media outlets have writeups already 10 minutes after the episode ended, they must have received copies hours before it aired

  294. Anyone else think the Umbers are just setting up Ramsay? The whole not kneeling thing was conspicuous.

  295. gewa76,

    No thanks, I think I’ll stay. Please enlighten me to some more of the profanity that circulates in your vocabulary.

  296. if you go back and rewatch the TOJ Scene. You will see the sword arthur dayne puts in the ground is Dawn. The flaming sun crest is underneath the handle. It may not be Dawn from the books but its at least its something.

  297. CatspawAssassin:
    Someone,

    Jaime mentioning something about trial by combat was most promising. I was watering some of my plants during that scene and missed some of the dialogue. Re-run in 2 minutes!

    Yeah, when he said ‘that’s one trial by combat I’ll be looking forward to see’, I was like, Us too, Jaime, for years! Cleganebowl hype!

  298. Louis,

    Same. What did you think of the quick execution of the mutineers? I wish we could have seen their faces when Jon come walking out. Also, wish there was more dialogue before they were hanged.

  299. And now say, Does young Howland Reed look like High Sparrow ? I’d say it could be

  300. Also, Tyrion’s scene aside, there were a couple of really funny moments tonight: Edd’s comment about Jon being funny meaning he wasn’t really sure it was him in there, and Jamie’s reaction to FrankenMountain’s stare down.

  301. By the way, did you notice how Arthur Dayne said “I wish you good fortune in the wars to come”? That was the exact line Mance told Stannis in S5E1!! Probably a nod to Mance = Arthur Dayne or Mance = Rhaegar theories?

  302. Ravyn:
    Anyone else think the Umbers are just setting up Ramsay? The whole not kneeling thing was conspicuous.

    If so, it’s the most diabolical anti-Bolton revenge plot since Littlefinger’s plan to take them down by giving them Sansa on a silver platter.

  303. tuna5584,

    No it was equally good
    It was different in that there was so much dialogue loved all the conversations
    And that flashback was epic!!!
    Jons scenes were so good. Aryas scene was also amazing.

  304. If Umber is doing to double cross Ramsay then why not just kneel to him to begin with?

  305. RIP Shaggydog… I knew it as soon as they pulled the hood of Osha… Fear we will see both of them on those crosses later. something weird would have to happen for it not to.

    TOJ was good. The swordfight was amazing, the dialogue… pity they changed it. I understand they had to add a couple lines so non book readers know what’s going on… but they could have kept more / all of the original dialogue. Not the type of dialogue you are supposed to mess with… Makes sense reveal wasnt straight away. I am really curious to see who Lyanna will be. Probably an unknown…

    I enjoyed the Meereen stuff actually. Varys scene was wonderful and throwback to first couple seasons and we got a bit of humor in the show which is always good to lighten matters. It makes sense Tyrion has nothing better to do now…

    I have no clue how all the Kingslanding stuff is going to play out (my guess Frankenmonster kills a lot of people…) but most other things seem quite obvious also with inevitable filming information that leaked… Looking forward to seeing Arya join that theatre troupe though i even wonder if she will here… Might just be a one scene thing with Arya watching them instead.

  306. Ready for The Vale next episode. Been waiting for that nonsense to catch up with the plot.

  307. How long before Tyrion turns the Unsullied into alcoholic party animals?

    And where the heck is my boy Bronn?

  308. Che,

    “The North remembers,” is a message passionately repeated in the books/show

    Not true, I think it has been mentioned once in the show by some old lady to Sansa at Winterfell.

  309. Flayed Potatoes: Tyrion, Missandei and GW have no chemistry….which is weird because Peter is one of those actors who seems to have good chemistry with everyone.

    We’re getting Jon in episode 4 right? HBO is so stingy with the previews lmao. I enjoy his storyline so much too. I literally get palpitations whenever we get a scene at CB because it’s so intense lol.

    I’m pissed as well about the whole thing with Rickon and Shaggy. Bran needs to come back south and save us. Smalljon acting all outraged about Wildlings when he didn’t even send help to defend CB in season 4….

    Yes… Peter Dinklage is an awesome actor.. but honestly I have never been a Greyworm/Messandei fan. I always fast forwarded their scenes after I taped the shows. Just hated it.. kinda reminds me of the Dorne stuff with Sandsnakes. As far as Shaggydog Im PRAYING it is a ruse (think Trojan Horse) to get inside Ramsey’s defenses and that wasn’t really Shaggydog. Im PRAYING that is the case.. I don’t buy the whole story he fed Ramsey either for wanting to join his side NOW all of a sudden. Jon will be in EVERY episode Im guessing.. or nearly all of them.. he said that he has more air time this season then any other so Im guessing he’s going to pull this show together.. he is the PTWP so he should be getting all the airtime he deserves. lol

  310. Boy… whatever floats your boat…I found this episode AMAZING!! Almost cried during the Tower of Joy 🙂 🙂 🙂

  311. Jack Bauer 24:
    If Umber is doing to double cross Ramsay then why not just kneel to him to begin with?

    Because Honor, i heard true northerners were really into it.

  312. I thought the tyrion scene was a jab at fans who Want minor characters to have a prominent roles. I think their point was there isn’t much you can do with such shallow and unimportant characters, i.e. what do they have to talk about.

  313. Dee,

    I hear you, I didn’t mean to ask it in a critical way…..I thought it was good, not great, but maybe that will chance with a second viewing. I’m always so hyperfocused on the castle black story that I guess I tune out all the other plot lines…..

  314. Jack Bauer 24,

    Agreed. Something felt different then the last two, but in such a good way. Probably the new director at hand. I think alot of people under appreciate the small talking parts, because to me, that is the best part of Game of Thrones. Sure, I love a white walker battle and a fighting pit/dragon spectacle, but it is the small talking parts that are part of character developpement, strong dialogue, and absolutely great fillers.

    Would give this episode a 9.5/10

  315. aabe:
    By the way, did you notice how Arthur Dayne said “I wish you good fortune in the wars to come”? That was the exact line Mance told Stannis in S5E1!! Probably a nod to Mance = Arthur Dayne or Mance = Rhaegar theories?

    Nice catch, aabe

  316. So, Arya got her eyes back before any warging took place. But D&D and Sackheim were hinting hard that there would be wolf-warging for all of the Stark children. If not Blind Beth, when? #lonewolfdiesbutthepacksurvives

  317. gewa76: I’m sorry you can’t deal with people calling you a c**t when you’re a c**t. The ToJ scene was objectively awesome, and anybody who thinks otherwise can go to the other site and bitch to their heart’s content. This is a site for people who actually enjoy the show. We’re sick of whiners like you, as if you know anything about fight choreography. Wait, let me guess; you’re the head choreographer of your local LARP group. Go fap to the YouTube fan film.

    You need to take it down about 10 notches. People can have different views here. What they can’t do is get personal towards others with name-calling.

  318. JamesL:
    Che,

    Not true, I think it has been mentioned once in the show by some old lady to Sansa at Winterfell.

    S2E1 was named The North Remembers, and Tyrion has reminded Tywin on multiple occasions that “The Northerners will never forget”.

  319. Al Swearengen,

    I agree. It felt a little lazy and predictable. There was too much material pulled from previous seasons, and used in writing this episode. It was present not only in Tyrion’s scenes, but Arya and even TOJ. “I wish you luck in the wars to come.” This line was even directly pulled from Mance Rayder’s mouth. It was hard to want to watch the Varys and Tyrion scenes. That felt terrible, because they are some of my favorites. The rest of it became pedestrian and predictable, even with poor

    Rickon Stark.

    The Jon Snow scenes were carried well versus the rest of the episode.

    There is an emptiness in the way this season was written. It tries too hard for certain emotional cues or plods into certain scenes, without their need to exist at all. This problem began last season. The show started catering too much to its tv show existence, writing for viewer counts and awards rather than content. It managed to pull this off with ASOIAF material mixed in, but struggles to perform on solo material from the Game of the Thrones writers. If the show wanders too far from its original feel, it’s going to limp to the finish line. Perhaps keeping the seasons limited will save it from imploding.

  320. ygritte,

    I thought it was perfect you saw the cowardice from Marsh and Yarwick they were just Thorne’s thugs, you saw Alliser go down still believing in what he did was right, and Olly who’s hatred for Jon and the hate within himself could never be changed. Jons face said it all he wish he didn’t have to this.

  321. LOL that fart. Still has nothing on Daenerys’ gargantuan diarrhea at the end of ADWD

  322. The actor who plays Small Jon is fantastic. He doesn’t take any shit and I loved it. Didn’t love his “gift”, for obvious reasons. I know the Umber’s are the “bad guys” now but I really liked how Smalljon was all matter-of-fact about the situation. Nice contrast to Ramsay’s over the top villian. Both will meet their end in beautiful fashion.

    I was one of the few who really didn’t care about the ToJ ever coming to screen but the fighting was beautifully done. The one thing I didn’t like is how I always felt Ser Arthur Dayne didn’t want to fight Ned and co. but was resigned to do so out of loyalty to Rhaegar. The scene made it feel as if he was getting off or happy to kill Ned. And Rhaegar was dead. Why wouldn’t he let Lyanna’s brother go to her at that point? He knew Ned would protect her and any potential heirs. His duty just felt empty.
    But again, thought the sword fighting was cool as shit.

    A nod to the Hound this season (as well as last)? Oh yes. Then a mention of Ser Robert Strong being Cersei’s champion and going against the faith? Now I am getting hyped. The Arya stuff moved fast. Loved it. I don’t know who said it up thread but I wouldn’t be surprised if she is tasked with killing Jon or someone else (The Hound for real? The Waif, maybe?) and that is when she bolts outta Bravvos.

    Jaime is such a mamby-pamby turd.
    Jonathan Pryce and Max Von Sydow are GOLD.

  323. I’m actually surprised at how good the dialogue was this episode. I have been underwhelmed by the some of the dialogue in the first two episodes, and had begun to think the conversations I loved so early in the series were never coming back since they were past the books, but this episode returned my optimism.

    Say what you will about the Umbers turning on the Starks but the conversation between Umber and Ramsay kicked ass.

    Vary’s scene with the woman was great. I really had missed scheming, on top of everything Vary’s.

    The small council stuff was really good, all of the dialogue at the wall was good, Bran and the 3 eyed Crow was good as well.

    The conversations in this episode reminded me of the kind of witty dialogue and intriguing conversations that were so prominent in the early seasons. Well Done D&D. Now hopefully they can keep this quality for the rest of the season, because I know the action will be there.

  324. Good old Verizon listed the show as repeating at 10:30. Of course being Verizon they were totally wrong, and HBO is actually showing the latest Fantastic Four flick, which looks hilariously terrible.

  325. A few more thoughts

    I was expecting more reaction when jon woke up. It went from ‘he’s alive’ to ‘lets get down to business’. There should have been a moment were everyone finds out about it and see their faces. Felt like several days were missing from this Also odd that no reaction or hardly any from Mel; you think she’d be happy? Later – at first I thought he shouldn’t kill Olly, but that look he gave jon – yeah there’s no redemption there.

    Loved Sam and Gillys scene (and look, a real baby!) Arya’s scene went on too long, but yeah I was expecting the waif to be added to Arya’s list

    The whole Tyion seen with GW and M just didn’t work at all. Really disappointed in Tommen’s scene with Sparrow – There is a reason why child kings have regents to deal with adult issues.

    The small council was funny – reminded me of the musical chairs with Tyrion a few seasons ago.

    thats all for now, need to rewatch

  326. teunteulai,

    That terror fart….perhaps this shows my vast immaturity but I actually Lol’ed in that moment.

    I also was inordinately happy to see Tormund insult Jons p33n.

  327. outdoorcats,

    You remind me of the people saying Trystane might be the series version of “Young Griff”, because his character was so seemingly pointless, and that Dorne would improve once Doran was revealed as the Machiavellian character he truly was. Both ended up dead.
    The show is coming to an end, so they’re cleaning up some of the dead wood. With no “Young Griff” there was no need for Arianne, or Doran really. With no Stannis or Wyman Manderly (GRRM confirmed that) there’s no need for the hunt for Rickon Stark, so him, Shaggydog and Osha are going to be used to further polish Ramsey Sue’s villain credentials.
    Showing Shaggydog dead and Osha was meant to prove to us that this was Rickon, simply because Art Parkinson has changed so dramatically with age and hasn’t been seen for a few years.

  328. This episode was fantastic. I loved Tower of Joy. Young Ned was great. Did he hear Bran?
    I don’t if the last two episodes have me hyper aware but i was terrified that The high sparrow was leading Tommen into a trap to get killed.
    Any chance that wasn’t Shaggydog? Was shaggy dog that dark in color the last time we saw him? I don’t think ramsey will kill Rickon. He can’t at this point. He has a Stark that he will use. Maybe Pink Letter action.
    The best part of the episode was the wall. Wow at Kit’s acting in the first scene. Anyone else think Jon looked very much like Rob a couple scenes?
    I’m so excited to see where Jon goes next!

  329. Bob Warren:
    Laura,

    The waif was prodding her to name The Red Woman, as that will be her mission. Remember, Mel saw death in her and said they would meet again.

    Well done putting that together.

  330. Has anyone else noted how, in bloodraven’s scenes in the cave, one of his eyes is always in the shadow?? or am i crazy?

  331. Sean C.: If so, it’s the most diabolical anti-Bolton revenge plot since Littlefinger’s plan to take them down by giving them Sansa on a silver platter.

    Lol! Next they’ll send the Boltons a Trojan horse without any men inside.

  332. Al Swearengen: – Rushed pace
    – Butchered dialouge
    – Sloppy fight choregraphy
    – Horrible acting. Young Ned was atrocious
    – No dawn
    – Cheesy moment with Bran

    It was amateurish and low budget. I am sorry but it was really bad.

    Jon’s scene with Davos though was excellent.

    Dawn was there! It had a sunrise logo thingy on the hilt. They just didn’t mention its name.

    They had to have Ned mention his sister in dialogue for Unsullied to have any idea why they were there.

    This was a good ep but boring in places. I think they put in that long Grey Worm and Missendei and Tyrion scene about nothing just to eff with book purists.

  333. ygritte,

    I wish we could have seen their faces when Jon come walking out. Also, wish there was more dialogue before they were hanged.

    yes, this.

  334. Jehphg: Because Honor, i heard true northerners were really into it.

    Honor? If he double crosses him there is no honor anyway…

  335. Ravyn: S2E1 was named The North Remembers, and Tyrion has reminded Tywin on multiple occasions that “The Northerners will never forget”.

    And the first episode was “Winter Is Coming.” I’m not sure if we ever heard that one again or not, did we?

  336. Not feeling or understanding any of you that keep saying this was a bad or boring episode. Every episode can’t be “GO! GO! GO!” Even still, this was solid as hell! I’ll take it!!

  337. Flayed Potatoes,

    The Davos pic which was released earlier is from ep 4. And the Mel pic from ep5

    So yeah, we will get more Castle Black in ep 4 and 5 🙂

  338. About the criticism above: Not every episode has to take it to eleven… We tend to think of this show in short, one-hour bursts, when in fact a season is ten hours (or thereabouts) of an unfolding tapestry.

    Friends of mine (who are watching the show for the first time) said the other day they could not imagine watching it with week-long gaps between episodes, not to mention nine months of waiting thereafter. But watching it in binge viewing, as I’m able to do a few weeks before each season (to refresh the previous year’s episodes), I see how it takes its time to unfold. The way we jump around from storyline to storyline, episode to episode, looks amazingly different when you view it all at once.

    There’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, we *need* episodes like this one tonight — refreshers, game changers, episodes that advance the plot without going over the top. Tonight, we got that in spades: the battle at the tower, which was very deftly handled (and I don’t see many people commenting about the fact that Ned HEARD BRAN’S VOICE which I think is a huge game changer); Jon realizing that the traitors were not the way forward for the Watch, but neither was he; and the brilliant reveal of Rickon and Osha. (If this was a fakeout by Umber, it was a stupid one; Ramsay has never seen Rickon or Osha, so it didn’t have to be them. I think Umber joining the Boltons is legit.)

    Plus it had Diana Rigg in it, and that is always pure gold. 🙂

  339. Al Swearengen:
    SansaStar,

    There’s plenty of previous scenes that have matched/surpassed my expections. “Dracarys” for example. Why is it a sin to express my disappointment? Must I lie and pretend I was satisfied?

    People around here need to relax. I mean ffs, I was elated with episode 2 and even praised Euron’s debut. Y’all seem unable to handle criticism and live in this fantasy land where every single episode is perfect.

    I liked this episode a lot but I totally agree with you. People are acting like rabid dogs around here lately if you disagree with their opinions. It’s very off-putting.

  340. TheWatchersOnTheCouch,

    I really like young Ned too … I believe he tried to make some Sean Bean’s face reactions. He was very good … Arthur Dayne was magnificent… I wish the dialogue was longer … why did they change it at all??? The casting was amazing … They really sold it.

  341. SansaStar:
    Connor,

    People, it’s an adaptation – it’s never going to match what you imagined in your head when you read it, because it’s another artist’s rendering of the same story. Even if it’s not exact as one pictured it, can’t we all just be excited? They are finally telling this story! We all get to really see what happened that day, not just in GRRM oblique hints, but really see it.

    Tl;dr. Some fans need to simmer down.

    I can be excited. And I can be disappointed, annoyed, or outright angry when the show botches things. The two big offenders for me are plot holes (inexplicable, irrational behavior, teleporting, apparent invisibility, impossibly large conspiracies, improbable chance meetings, etc) and major changes to character’s arcs (Brienne, Stannis, and Selmy, for example). Little things like frivolous changes to lines (eg, “Only Cat”) are mere pinpricks of dissapointment in comparison.

    Obviously condensing 8000 dense pages into 75 hours of TV requires major editing and compromise. But that doesn’t imply we have no right to criticize the choices made.

  342. In the trailer, Jaqen says ‘a girl is given a second chance. There will not be a third’. Now, what Arya failed doing in her first chance was to carry out an assassination as instructed. So maybe she will get a new target in the coming episodes? In TWoW Mercy sample chapter ,

    I believe this will tie in somehow with Cersei’s insistence that she know when anyone anywhere in the world is making fun of her covered in shit. Arya’s gonna get tested again. I for one hope she doesn’t become a Faceless (Wo)Man. I don’t know what I want from her, but that’s not it.

    I want her to at least live to see every name scratched off her list, either by her or someone else, AND she needs to connect with Nymeria again.

  343. carbonUnit: Yep, the choreography thing. I’m willing to bet that most people making that comment have never even held an actual European sword before, let alone learned to fight with one in a theatrical setting.

    I’m certainly no expert, but I did a lot of stage combat training years ago. I thought the fight both well choreographed and executed. I’m not sure anyone who hasn’t actually tried to do it has any idea how difficult it is to work with two swords like that, much less do it so well.

  344. tuna5584,

    I thought that this week’s episode was better than last week’s too, actually! With the first two episodes, I felt like too many big things were happening “for plot” (or something) but the buildup to them was mainly from last season, if there was compelling buildup at all. I was starting to worry that this was how the whole season would be – i.e., with big plot things happening but without full explanations for them, like why Davos was so invested in resurrecting Jon after talking to him like three times, how the Sand Snakes got to Trystane, when all of Dorne apparently turned on Doran, when Ramsay formed an alliance with the Karstarks, etc, etc, etc…

    Personally I was really happy with this episode because (to me) it feels like watching GoT again – namely, watching long stories with slow, character-driven buildups and the promise of really good (and justified) payoffs to come.

  345. That scene where Davos asked Melisandre to give them a moment had me laughing. She looked at him likeep WTF I just brought this fucker back from the dead and you expect me to leave?

  346. tuna5584,

    No I didn’t take it that way 🙂
    I see what you mean
    I’m on the edge of my seat the whole time so I’m usually focused but I’m always like hurry up and take us to castle black

  347. Jack Bauer 24,

    Well, the way i see it, he would consider protecting his rightful (that he knows of) king honorable, i don’t believe crossing Ramsay would affect someone on that frame of mind

  348. Geralt of Rivia,

    It would also make sense if arya truly becomes no one that her wolf is gifted to Sansa – because Lady was killed in Nymeria’s place.

    This also makes me think that the faceless God has heard Arya’s prayer and as such becomes no one as recompense for her prayer being answered.

  349. So Im guessing The HOUND will be back sometime since we now know that Arya doesn’t actually hate him (this we all really knew anyway). Prob not till next season or maybe part of the last show?

  350. LatrineDiggerBrian,

    I agree completely. Loved the episode but it was uneven. I thought it was overall the best this season but the scene with Tyrion, Greyworm and Missandei was painful, excruciatingly painful. Unless that was what was intended. It was bad. Varys’ scene was good, but it dragged a little

    But everything else was great.

    TOJ – it was great. Look it was obvious that they would split this. Too soon to do the big reveal (see SNL skit on pacing :-)) Loved what D&D said in Inside the Episode about the difference discrepency between received history and actual history. And the difference between his letting go of his honor in this instance to save Lyanna versus being willing to die to save his honor.

    I also loved their comments regarding how being aware of being murdered has to change someone. So Jon will be [somewhat?] different.

    Finally this season I loved the Arya scenes. They were great. Maisie was amazing.

    I guess they confirmed that the Three-Eyed Raven is not on the show Bloodraven unless he’s a thousand years old (I wonder is Melisandre and the Three-Eyed Raven knew each other as kids … just kidding).

  351. I think this will be the least buzzed about episode so far this season. Without the payoff to ToJ, I think most viewers will just not know what to make of it. And they sufficiently muted the death of Olly so that I don’t think anyone could cheer that, certainly not in the way they did when Joffrey was killed. That doesn’t make it a bad episode, by any means, as we’re beginning to see a lot of the pieces moving into place for the latter episodes.

  352. Geralt,

    I did as well. Overall. The whole Jon reveal … I understand why they had to do what they had to do, but I agree with the SNL skit … enough already. I’m just happen that my original thought that it would be episode 3 and a second Melisandre attempt before Jon came back was wrong.

  353. I’m halfway through a second time and just saw that I didn’t even notice the second Child of the Forest in the cave on first watch.

  354. Laura: I liked this episode a lot but I totally agree with you. People are acting like rabid dogs around here lately if you disagree with their opinions. It’s very off-putting.

    Very much so.

  355. Al Swearengen:
    carbonUnit,

    Or I’ve just seen fight scenes that were executed with more finesse in other shows and movies.But no, GOT’s choreography is impeccable…..

    Arya’s scenes were choreographed better than ToJ.

    Its certainly not impeccable, but enjoyable none the less. About the only thing I’d complain about is the whole duel wielding thing. I know its fantasy, but the historical fencer in my cringes when I see people fighting with anything other than side swords when using two swords of the same length, and even then I still cringe bit.

    With that, I personally liked the scene. I thought it was sloppy in the way real fighting can be. That’s my opinion though and as such is completely subjective. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this, which is cool.

    Sorry if I came off a little douchey.

  356. Lolyspop,

    I agree that they can be quiet episodes, they often work well for plot and character development and often the interactions are some of the best in the show. This one just didn’t work for me.

  357. There is no fake Shaggy dog, Shaggydog is dead. I’ve watched enough of this show to know D&D style and having some new house the audience is unfamiliar with engage is some undercover plot to bring down the Boltons is not their style. They always try to avoid overcomplicating things because they know they are dealing with an audience where many still can’t even name a lot of the prominent characters.

    First people thought it was going to be fake Rickon which I knew wasn’t going to happen and now it is fake Shaggydog. The Umbers are traitors, deal with it.

  358. Also.. wasn’t there MORE than just four that was in on the murder of JS? I don’t understand why there was only four who took the fall?

  359. If I’m Jon I’m just taking a few days off in Mole’s Town to figure shit out and relieve some tension. Sansa can wait another episode

  360. The episode wasn’t boring. It was a setup episode. For some reason people hate these, but they’re necessary to develop the characters and make the action pay off.

    The only thing I didn’t like was the Tyrion scene. It felt like it was just thrown in there to give Peter Dinklage something to do. I did like the Varys scene though. Much more successful than the Meereen small council scene was the King’s Landing small council scene. More fun with chairs! The emphasis on Kevan and Pycelle makes me think their days are numbered.

    Tormund was hilarious even though I don’t usually approve of penis jokes. Kit Harrington and Liam Cunningham both gave fantastic performances. I just wish we’d gotten a little more of a chance to see Melisandre react given how great Carice Van Houten was in the first two episodes. I kind of like how low key the resurrection is. Jon didn’t come back with new powers (at least not yet). This was no glowing white Gandalf. Neither was he too dark. He took no joy in executing those who stabbed him. And am I the only one who still feels some empathy for Olly? I even have a little for Alliser, as much as I dislike him. I’ll miss Owen Teale.

    Poor Shaggydog. I’m clinging to hope that Osha and Rickon will make it out alive and whole, but I don’t know. Rickon might survive, but Osha is probably fucked.

    The Dany scene was pretty good, but I’m ready for that storyline to start moving. I know it’s necessary for her arc for her to be brought low for a bit, but I want her to be the dragon queen again. I want to hear the word Dracarys!

    ToJ wasn’t disappointing to me, but I can see how it might be for some. The fight was good, but unfortunately I was a little distracted because I though the actor playing young Ned looked like what you would get if Sean Bean and Neil Patrick Harris had a baby. I got a huge thrill hearing the scream from the tower though. It’s not the fight I was looking forward to so much as it is what comes next.

    The Sam and Gilly scene was nice. In some ways better than the ship chapters in the book because she wasn’t bawling the whole time. I really can’t wait to meet the Tarly clan.

    I think the Arya scene was my favorite. I was sort of surprised because at first I was a bit annoyed that it was another scene of her being beat up. But Maisie Williams just knocked it out of the park. I loved hearing the list again and I loved the talk of the Hound. Is it just me, or did The Waif get a look on her face when Arya mentioned Walder Frey? I had always wondered whether Arya would go back to the Riverlands but it would be against what the FM want from her or if it would be her job. I always kind of felt the FM was after her from the start. They need her to do something in Westeros. I can’t wait to see where her story goes now that she isn’t blind anymore.

  361. Al Swearengen,

    To each their own, yes. I just genuinely don’t get the dissatisfaction with the scene. It was short, because how long could you possibly make it, there’s only so much to have them say; the fight choreography was rough but entertaining; young Ned was rough, too – our man before he was refined by his wars (the Rebellion and his private battles). It was a sketch of the scene, and I appreciated the sketch work. I tend to be very forgiving of adaptations, generally.

    Regardless, you’re entitled to your opinion as much as anyone. I overreacted because I’ve spent much of this week on forums listening to self-described ‘purists’ declare themselves dissatisfied before the episode even aired. Apologies.

  362. I enjoyed this episode much more than I thought I would.

    I am glad to see that Jon does not seem completely dark, but he did his last duty and hanged the traitors. And he seems a bit tougher now.

    Nooooo Shaggydogg!!!! Damn not another direwolf.

    The Boltons and the Umbers needs to pay. Why didn’t the Umbers talk to Jon directly about the Wildlings? When the Nights Watch asked for help against the Wildings no one was there for them (except Stannis). They can’t get mad when the Nights Watch has to device their own plans to cope with the Wildlings. They are idiots.

    The ToJ scene went well, it was a really good fight and Ser Arthur Dayne really stood out. But just having a fight scene alone with no context makes it just another fight scene. Before the episode I thought it would have been better to have the whole ToJ scene at once, and after the episode I still feel the same.

    Varys and the discussion between Tommen and the High Sparrow was pretty decent. I like the fact that they used that same prostitute from last season with Varys. But at the same time I think they should start scaling down a bit on Lannister, Kings Landing and Mereen screen time until they actually have something to do.

    I have almost forgotten Arya, good that Arya got her sight back, and nice to see her learning about potions and poisons.

  363. Ice Spider:
    So Im guessing The HOUND will be back sometime since we now know that Arya doesn’t actually hate him (this we all really knew anyway). Prob not till next season or maybe part of the last show?

    McShane practically bragged that he’d be

    bringing the Hound back.
  364. I’m so hoping those believing that wasn’t Shaggydog’s head are right and the Umbers are conning Ramsey. Oh please let Shaggy be still alive and Rickon survive.

    I was pleasantly surprised to find Art still looking very Rickonish. He had looked so changed in photos I had seen of him. I still want to mother him.

  365. Hodors Bastard,

    I generally dislike the High Sparrow scenes, all he does it spit out religious cliche after religious cliche. The scene with him and Tommen seemed like it might be building to something, but it ended with a thud. I guess the point was to say Tommen is still a push over? Need to watch it again.

    The Qyburn and Little Bird’s thing was meh. I’m sure it’s building to something later in the season, the fact that Qyburn is informed now, but I never realized that the “Little Birds” Varys was referring to were all child spies. That seems like one of the silly things from the books they would usually leave out.

    And the Small Council scene was just clunky.

    That being said, I need to watch it again. Maybe I’d take it off bad and just put it as average.

  366. Ice Spider,

    Four known characters. Rest was extras so it makes sense to kill four most known characters and also three highest officers. Olly was personal for Jon.

  367. If a viewer has watched every episode and still doesn’t know the names of the prominent characters in the show yet then they are a moron. Seriously.

  368. Olly is trending too. Finally, the much-awaited, joy-inducing moment the whole world has been waiting for. Olly got dead.

  369. Some observations and questions

    – The Smalljon actor did a really good job. It was a strong introduction. It’s a strong posibility that Rickon and Osha have trusted the wrong house, but if that’s not the case, I don’t see how it could be some kind of fake-out. Why use the real Rickon as a fake-out, if Ramsay has never seen him before. Maybe Smalljon doesn’t know for sure. Ramsay and Lord Karstark could have met him sometime before the war at, there’s no real way to know. It did puzzle me that they made a point of having Smalljon be antagonizing towards Lord Karstark. And that the Umbers notorious stark-loyalty was brought up. Only to have him just hand over Rickon and the head of Shaggy Dog. Probably though, I’m simply hoping for the best for Rickon and Osha.
    – The Tower of Joy was an exceptional scene. Arthur Dayne is probably the most badass character to have ever appeared on the show. I do wonder what significance it will have that Howland Reed stabbed Dayne in the back. It seemed to chock Bran. There seemed to be focus on it with the shot of the knife and Bran going so far as to comment on it. I wonder if this is gonna mean anything for Meeras character.
    – The Dosh Khaleen high priestess gave a strong impression. I have no idea how this will end for Dany, but somehow I don’t worry about her at all. Excited to see how she makes it out though.
    – Do we think Harald Karstark actually does have a reputation for desiring young boys? Or was it just an off-hand remark from Umber to try and piss him off. Anyway, the new lord Karstark seems like a prick.
    – I really liked scene with Varys and the whore Valla. At some point he said: ‘It will be good for you Valla, and it will be good for Dom.’ I totally though he said Dorne. I was sure we getting another sandsnake. I’m glad that wasn’t the case (I don’t mind the Dorne-storyline, it had some good aspects, but that would have been too much). I like Vallas character. A secret rebel, fierce in her belief. The actress did well. She was built up gradually during the fifth season, which I like.
    – I have a strong feeling that Qyburn’s little birds are still Varys’ little birds. I think that was Qyburn they seemed to be stabbing in the trailers.

  370. Loved the North, which is quickly turning into the center of the story–Jon, Davos, Sansa, Ramsay, Brienne, the Watch, the wildlings, northern politics, Petyr and the Vale. Rest of it was meh (for me).

  371. Dee,

    There will be though, this time, they fucking better! I mean Sansa is going to be with Davos as taken from the trailers, Davos was in the SAME room as Sansa was from the trailers. Jon has got to be there with them. I say that they will reunite next episode.

    And I am pissed about the Umbers!! Not poor Shaggydog 🙁

    It is great to see Rickon and Osha again, but I wish it were in a better way 🙁 But I hope its a farce they’re doing, but I doubt it….

  372. Julia:

    There is an emptiness in the way this season was written. It tries too hard for certain emotional cues or plods into certain scenes, without their need to exist at all. This problem began last season. The show started catering too much to its tv show existence, writing for viewer counts and awards rather than content. It managed to pull this off with ASOIAF material mixed in, but struggles to perform on solo material from the Game of the Thrones writers. If the show wanders too far from its original feel, it’s going to limp to the finish line. Perhaps keeping the seasons limited will save it from imploding.

    Couldn’t possibly disagree more with the above. Sometimes feel like i’m in the bizarro universe to some of the more negative members of the fandom. This episode was f’ing AMAZING. I was on the edge of my couch the entire running time.

    They’re killing it this season.

  373. weirwoodtreehugger: They need her to do something in Westeros.

    Yeah, I’m ready for her to get back there, too. But I agree: I loved that sequence. The montage was strong in that one.

  374. My sister loved young Ned she said he was perfect – especially the eyes and his looks

    I agree
    That fight scene was awesome – the whole flash back was just wow
    I am not s book reader so I know what I am seeing and that’s it, but this dayne guy was awesome

    I am loving brans reactions – and what BR Tells him is huge – so excited to see what else he learns

    I can’t wait for next week

    Edit: OH AND LYANNA!!!! Eff yessssssssssss

  375. Icekhione,

    No. it means that we are intelligent people who are allowed to have their own opinions on what they watch or read. Has nothing to do with loving or hating the books (and btw for your information, I was reading the books long before the show happened.)

  376. Can’t beat Olenna throwing shade about Cersei’s family tree branches being crossed. Don’t remember the exact line. I’ll catch it on the re-watch.

  377. Darkrobin,

    I need to watch the Inside the Episode.

    Yeah I just knew when I saw Tyrion sitting around the table with Missandei and Greyworm, and he made some annoying comment, that it was all downhill from there. Completely pointless and horrible, should’ve been cut to the DVD.

    No one seems to be mentioning Arya’s story, but I agree, it’s been great thus far (even if the scenes in the first two episodes weren’t much). I really loved the montage in this episode.

    And I think not only was this episode up and down, but so far this season has been more up and down than usual.

  378. Ravyn,

    He’s already said he was BR. I guess the 1000 years may have to with waiting for the right person to fight the WWs.

  379. carbonUnit,

    No need to apologize at all. You were just expressing your opinion and I completely respect it. Nothing you said was offensive 🙂

    I am very happy to see people were satisfied with the scene and enjoyed it. I am not trying to rain on anyone’s parade at all, I was merely just expressing my initial disappointment. Perhaps it’s a kneejerk reaction on my part.

    Maybe I was just too amped up, ToJ is arguably one of my most favorite moments from the books and ever since the rumors began to swirl I’ve been greatly anticipating it. Perhaps once I’ve had some sleep and rewatch the episode in the morning I’ll appreciate it more.

    PS Anyone else kinda respect the way Thorne chose to bow out?

  380. Al Swearengen,

    I thought the guy playing Dayne was a fantastic swordsman, I didn’t have a problem with the fight choreography, the dialogue on the other hand . . . Then again that part was so poetic in the books no adaptation could have done it justice without coming off as cheesy. Some things are always going to be better on paper.

  381. The TOJ fight was excellent IMO they made Dayne an absolute monster in battle it was beautiful to watch.

  382. Simon,

    Nymeria belongs to Arya. I belive they’ll meet at some point and maybe Arya will spend rest of her life inside of Nymeria to be free. There is a nice theory on youtube Alt Shift X posted t.

  383. I wonder why they decided to cut short the dialogue at the TOJ when we could have done without the Tyrion/GW/Missandei scene talking about having nothing to talk about!. Not a book reader but I know it was important part in the text. Just really curious at their decision.

  384. LatrineDiggerBrian: that the “Little Birds” Varys was referring to were all child spies

    It reminded me of S1 when a child was sent by Varys to tell Jorah he was getting a pardon for his crimes.

  385. Am i the only one that was screaming at the tv when the TOJ storyline fell short? Just let it known already..

  386. Ice Spider:
    Also.. wasn’t there MORE than just four that was in on the murder of JS? I don’t understand why there was only four who took the fall?

    There were half a dozen who stabbed, but there were at least a dozen others just standing around watching. However, this season, Thorne only named himself, Marsh, and Yarwyck. I’m not even sure he named Olly, but we all couldn’t forget Olly. So I figured it would be just these three or four to get the ax. Or the rope, in this case.

  387. Ravyn: It reminded me of S1 when a child was sent by Varys to tell Jorah he was getting a pardon for his crimes.

    If you remember it was also a child that delivered the message from Tywin to Ser Barristan in Mereen in season 4 that showed Jorah’s betrayal.

  388. Darkrobin:
    Ice Spider,

    The leaders?And Olly …The rank and file must have been pardoned?

    Idk…. I guess but it kinda was weird to not address that at all… I was just wondering if anyone knew the story behind why only four got the ax (lol not literally).

  389. JamesL,

    Re The Umbers are traitors, deal with it.

    (style this is not) having some new house the audience is unfamiliar with engage in some undercover plot .

    this is not a thing. stop trying to make this a thing.

  390. Aryas scenes were some of my favourite of the episode
    Bringing up the list again and everything.
    I thought it was strange how the waif reacted to Walder Freys name . I really wonder what that means. She went from being tough and in control to kind of shocked upset I don’t know
    Just me ?

  391. SmallJon Umber and Arthur Dayne were great. Particularly the guy who played Dayne, who conveyed world-weariness and had a sense of gravitas despite the fact that he had a helmet on most of the time. Seriously, he was WONDERFUL.

  392. Best episode this season. So far. I was so pissed about Shaggy Dog! But Jons execution of the traitors and departure from NW helped mitigate my disappointment.

  393. Hodors Bastard: Fuckin’ Umbers.

    Shaggydog!!!! Fuck!

    Ah, but in a way: it’s on Jon. We knew that the Umbers hate Wildlings passionately. We probably should have started worrying about what they would do to Jon’s family after he let the Wildlings through. I think too many of us were blinded by the notion of “Everyone Loves Ned Stark.” But clearly the North has rejected Jon’s claims about White Walkers returning and is fixated on the danger that they know well: Wildlings.

    (That stated, I did like the Young Umber. His refusal to kneel was a nice reminder that the Northerners and the Wildlings really are not all that different.)

    The Tower of Joy scene was well-done. The sword fight was intense, but not over-long. I like how they (once again) show us that the lionized history was sanitized and mythologized to hide some ugly truths.

    Oh, and we now can put an RIP on the inane High Sparrow = Howland Reed idea, too. Over the last two episodes, I think that it is ideas-supported-by-canon 100, ideas-supported-by-fan-fiction 0. The Leicester City Foxes and Chicago Cubs combined have not been on such good rolls!

    As for Daeny, well: it looks like she is going to have all of the Dothraki there for her coming-out party.

    And as for Jon, he surprised me be declaring his Watch ended: but, then, I did not think that he would accept that he had been dead so readily. However, I now am very worried for Edd and Co. Ramsay is going to go to Castle Black looking for Sansa: and when she’s not there (and she won’t be by then), well, I think that we are looking at Edd on a Cross….

  394. Hodors Bastard,

    4 Lyannas! Liam Cunningham said in an interview that he is speaking to Lyanna Mormont in the trailer where he warns about the long night coming, and the dead with it.

  395. Looking forward to the scene in which Arya confesses to Jaqen H’ghar that she only wanted to join the Faceless Men so she could learn to be a great assassin, and Jaqen replies with his trademarked enigmatic smile, “Why does a girl think the rest of us joined up?”

  396. Ser Arthur Dayne met all my expectations. He was stellar and near invincible but for one injured and assumed dying man. Ned was doomed and Howland arose and played his cheap shot that enabled this tale. Excellent scene. Damn, Bran took in a lot. BR held him back wisely, and maybe with an ulterior motive.

  397. Apparently, “My watch has ended” is the Westerosi for “F*** this, I’m done”

    Also, NOOOOO!!! SHAGGYDOG!!!!!! WHY GODS WHY????

  398. Sir Imp hand Strong,

    I think that Umbers are a mix of Umbers and Manderlys… Smalljon said that Jon Snow and the wildlings were on their way to attack … something that at least in this episode was not.

  399. Ramsay ain’t killing rickon – but we all know how he treats his prisoners.
    Osba, on the other hand, I am quite concerned for
    I’m still not ready to discuss shaggy dog – that fucking hurt man

    I really hope Jon goes to save winterfell – and am hoping Mel’s vision was true

  400. Ginevra,

    I see.. so Thorne was saving the other guys asses? Interesting … And is it just me or was Jon making sure Olly was looking into HIS eyes as he died? I don’t know if that was intentional or just me seeing something that wasn’t there? I’d like to think that he wanted Olly to be looking at him as he died.. definitely some sort of justice!

  401. This was my favorite episode of the season so far too. It was nice to go back to the slower, character oriented episodes we normally see in the earlier part of the season. I thought every scene, except the Tyrion-Missendei-Greyworm one, was good. CB was excellent as usual, it’s by far my favorite location this year. And when Sansa and co. get there, it can only get better! Reallly looking forward to Sansa and Jon meeting. Seriously, does it hurt to show Jon in the preview, so that at least we would get some idea of what will happen with him.
    Maisie as Arya was fantastic this episode.
    Dany’s story lacks momentum so far, imo. But that will change next episode I guess. Overall very good episode for me.

  402. JamesL: The Umbers are traitors, deal with it.

    No, the Umbers are reacting to treason. Wildlings have hurt them terribly in the past. This Young Umber loves to kill Wildlings. And now a Stark scion is leading a huge Wildling army into Westeros: an army that, no doubt, will rape and reave the Hearth before heading south. (I love the Grimmsian distortion of what actually happened; I love even more that it now is sort of true.)

  403. I would have liked for the show to point out that the last Targ KG were at the TOJ and not with Prince Viserys or a pregnant Queen Rhaella. So yes, I would have appreciated a couple of more lines from the books. Don’t really care about the aesthetics of the fight. I thought it was fine, and loved the ending with Ned turning around thinking he heard something. I knew they would not show what’s in the tower this soon, particularly when the scene happened early in the episode.

    Other than that, I loved that final scene. Jon did not behead them. He did not go easy on them. He did what needed to be done. Oh, and his watch is ended! Ramsay’s gonna get rekt.

    Poor Shaggy Dog. Fucking Smalljon. Greatjon is rolling over in his grave.

    Meereen is still boring. Poor Peter Dinklage and Conleth Hill.

    No more more ‘who are you’ questions, please. Give us something new and fun for Arya.

    Overall, not as good as last week. Better than the premier, but not a great episode. It featured the best scene in Dorne to date, so that’s something.

  404. This episode was a mixed bag for me. Some incredible moments, and a few others that left me scratching my butt in boredom.

    The Wall: Everything was perfect. Mel’s face = priceless. The humor from Tormund (quickly becoming one of my favorite characters) and Edd was so well placed. Olly’s defiance and Jon’s sorrow. The mic drop. Loved all of it.

    I just hope Jon’s not gone before Sansa gets there. I feel like we really need a reunion of at least two of the Starks. It’s time.

    TOJ: Thought the fight was like music – beautiful. However, I thought there could’ve been more tension/intensity around what the kings guards were defending and why. Also agree with people who thought this flashback should’ve been done in one go around.

    Sam and Gilly: nice to check in on them, but unless there were some tiny hidden details, I thought it was mostly pointless. So now they go to his house before he continues to the Citadel. Um, ok. You could have just gone there. ZZZZZZZZZ

    Arya/HOB&W: Glad to see her training coming to an end and eyesight returned. But this was most powerful to me because of Maisie’s acting (she’s superb). So now we’re supposed to believe she’ll never be Arya again? Well, that would be disappointing. I’d love to see a hint as to Jaqen’s real bigger picture motive here. I suspect there is one.

    Tyrion/Greyworm etc around the table: Gah, a complete waste of three talented people and great characters. Wtf was the point of that? I love Tyrion but this was awful dialogue.

    Ramsay/Rickon: I’m tired of Ramsay and that stupid sociopathic grin. Not like “I hate it” but more like “yeah yeah, we know”. Super bummed about Shaggydog. I don’t yet care enough about Rickon except that he’s an extension of the Starks. I fear Osha is toast.

    Varys: Agree with some of the other comments, it was awesome to see some politics coming back into play, and Varys is amazing. But the politics were too local. I want to see some of these story lines interacting with one another, even in small ways. Like perhaps having Varys send the Harpy rebel girl to Kings Landing with a new mission.

    KL/Tommon etc.: The convo between the High Sparrow and Tommon fell flat. I guess they’re trying to set up a scenario where Tommon is supposed to choose between the Gods and his family, but instead it felt like a manipulation that is so lopsided you kind of cringe. I liked the scenes with Cersie and Jamie/the small council. And I loved the fact that she wants little birds in other castles. Finally someone is thinking big picture!

    Like I said, I thought it was a mixed bag. Some incredible, some flat. Hard to follow a home run like last week though and even when flat it’s still a great show.

    I also still think with only two (short) seasons left, we need to wrap up the side stories and character building and start having story lines intersect. Let’s get to the fight/schemes for the Iron Throne and surviving the coming Winter.

  405. johnny braavos:

    I hate to be this spoilt, but ToJ….How can you start out with the exact dialogue from the books and then Dorne-ify it half way through?

    If you’re gonna start with “i looked for you on the trident”, you better well follow it up with “the kingsguard does not flee, then or now.” Not replace it with “Where’s my sister”? “Not your concern”.

    As a book reader, I think this is totally valid. But, is it possible that they put this in to reaffirm what’s going on for non-book readers? IDK I was reading an old article about the GOT pilot that was tossed. And, they said one of the reasons they reshot it was because when they screened it for friends, people had no idea that Cersei and Jaime were brother and sister, even. So, they made sure to make the family relations clearer the second time.

  406. Al Swearengen:
    carbonUnit,

    PS Anyone else kinda respect the way Thorne chose to bow out?

    Yes, I was. Never liked that bastard but at least he didn’t beg at the end. I was surprised that Olly wasn’t more scared. He really hated Jon there at the end. It seemed it was harder for him to stab Jon in the heart than it was for him to say his last words. For a minute I thought he was going to spit on Jon.

    As for Sansa getting there before Jon leaves – I don’t think so. Sansa will ride out with Mel and Davos, but not before seeing Jon. It’s going to be interesting to see what Jon plans to do now. And even more interesting to see how people react to the news that he was brought back to life and gave up his watch on the Wall…. every Northerner knows was that penalty is, and folks knee jerk reactions won’t be good.

  407. Muthafuckin TOJ. Wow. That was amazing. Completely lived up to my hopes. Knew it was only going to be the fight, so no disappointment there. I thought the swordfighting was fucking tits.

    No dragons tonight, though.

  408. Simon:
    Ravyn,

    He’s already said he was BR. I guess the 1000 years may have to with waiting for the right person to fight the WWs.

    In the books, BR can’t be much older than 150 years old, so they have really aged him up, eh? I mean, I guess that’s okay and all, but it did seem extreme.

  409. After the mindfuck of the first two episodes I found this quieter episode somewhat relieving but also disappointed. Really wish the preview hadn’t “spoiled” the Rickon reveal for me. I’ve decided not to bother with previews anymore as i think I’d have enjoyed the shock more without it.

    Can’t wait for something interesting to happen in KL. what the F have QoT & Kevan been up to??? They can’t get Margaery out? They don’t know or care that Dorne has seceded? That the north is in revolt? That the HS is playing the king like a puppet? The only solution for that plot is to kill Tommen… But it seems like they are going to do a TbC first.. Meh

    Mereen… Missandei should be giving actual advice and cultural context and bring her awesome self instead of giving Tyrion at wtf face when he asks her to talk to him. Yes, of course, it was comedy, I get it, just kinda fell flat for me. Varys scene was fine. I guess we will have the battle of fire after all. Dany will swoop in on Drogon after inevitably schooling all the Dothraki, we will have IB show up with boats (but will it be Asha or Euron?).

    The post Jon resurrection stuff was all good. Only a teensy bit annoyed that Jon got lawyers with his vows. Still an oathbreaker, which is FINE. The NW will follow him anywhere, whatever he calls himself.

  410. Ice Spider,

    One was killed by Tormund during the storming of CB, one was wiped across the stone wall by Wun Wun during the storming of CB, maybe one or two others also died in the fray that we didn’t see?

  411. Just a few questions…
    Could Smalljohn be taking the place of the Manderlys in terms of the deception?

    Where is Balish?? That story line is so different I am not even sure how he is relevant!

    What is up with the dragons now that Tyrion unchained them?

    Does anyone else think poor little Tommen isn’t long for this world? I thought for sure he was a goner tonight.

    It is completely new territory book readers!

  412. CatspawAssassin: “Why does a girl think the rest of us joined up?”

    Too look like sexy Jesus, obviously.

    I did wonder if Arya was going to start seeing things through an animal at this point. However, that didn’t happen. And Jon seems to be back to himself (albeit clearly quite jaded): they won’t be using Jon learning to warg to “recover” himself or anything like that. So, at this point, I am ready to put a fork on other Starks warging. It really was this year or never for those two all along.

  413. You have to keep it consistent with brans visions – they’re going to have to split up that scene or else it would contradict what we know about warging and drowning. I haven’t read the books but I expect to see what happens after Ned goes up the stairs. But we have to accept that they’re going to cut visions short

  414. trarecar: He really hated Jon there at the end.

    Well, Jon did side with the people who murdered Olly’s parents: that would be very tough to forgive.

  415. That crazy spell check needs to be update for ASOIAF lingo!! LOL

    numeric for Nymeria

  416. LatrineDiggerBrian,

    Re Tommen – this appeared to me to be setting the groundwork for Tommen coming around to the Faith if that is the way they are going. He is extremely impressionable and manipulatable. It’s almost like whoever talks to him last has his ear.

    Qyburn – setting up a scene from the books? At least his little birds can talk – I believe there was some suggestion in the books that they were mute (perhaps intentionally).

  417. Wimsey,

    Maybe small force but in all honesty Ramsay will likely send a letter and we’ll get pink Letter show version. Which will prompt Jon to act. He’s now free in his mind of this oath and can march. Also Umbers must know horde of Wildlings is not really a horde. Just 5000 and a lot of them are older people, children and women. But their siding with Boltons makes sense. Glad to see a bit of Darth Jon there and bcoming different persona being more ruthless. Even executing kid.

  418. *Tinfoil theory* (spoilers from tonight below)

    Maybe Shaggydog died of a different cause, and they’re making lemonade from lemons by pretending to have killed him when they captured O and R?

    Maybe I’m reaching. But I hope not.

  419. So, what is Cersei planning to do with any knowledge about far-off people disrespecting her? Kevan controls the Lannister army and despises her. The Tyrells despise her. The Faith despises her. She’s got no allies, and no forces under her control other than ‘whipped Show Jaime and zombie Mountain, and maybe the Kingsguard on days when Tommen isn’t in a rebellious mood. That’s not going to make anyone in the North, Highgarden, or Dorne afraid.

  420. Laura: I liked this episode a lot but I totally agree with you. People are acting like rabid dogs around here lately if you disagree with their opinions. It’s very off-putting.

    I don’t think it is your dislike of the episode is what pissed people off (if that’s the case they need to grow the fuck up). I’m thinking, what’s annoying is that you just kept saying it over and over again. Why not say your piece and move on.

    I wouldn’t worry about it though – I personally did not care for episode 1 and said so on this site. Most of the Fandom disagreed with me, and told me so in no uncertain term.

    I didn’t give a shit and neither should you.

  421. Simon: guess the 1000 years may have to with waiting for the right person to fight the WWs.

    Well, keep in mind that he’s been looking at the past and future as well as the present. He might have lived through 1000 years mentally over a century physically.

  422. Al Swearengen,

    I hope, Al, once we’ve gotten the whole thing, you’ll enjoy it more.

    Gilly’s bonsied baby,

    I do like the symmetry of that, but…*sigh*…poor Shaggydog.
    I’ve noticed people talking about what it could mean that the Umber refused to pledge himself and hold on to the hope that means it is a ruse, and it wasn’t really shaggydog. It doesn’t really make sense, ’cause as others have also said, why would he take the chance of putting Rickon in the hands of Ramsay, but I’ll hold on to whatever little thread I can…hahaha.

  423. Louis,

    Yes, but it irrational for Olly to have so much burning hate for Jon. It just doesn’t ring true for me. Also, he and Thorne are not superstitous men and for them to just speak so matter of fact after they witness a man they butchered come back to life and confronting them. Surely there should be some change in their demeanor but I saw none. I didn’t see the proper emotions play out.

  424. All I have to say I can’t deal with both Shaggy and Rickon dying, so if that is Shaggydog, please let Rickon live. I don’t know why I’m so attached.

  425. Numeric the wolf:
    Just a few questions…Could Smalljohn be taking the place of the Manderlys in terms of the deception?

    You know, that’s actually not a bad theory. It’s a little precarious though, I am not sure handing Rickon over to a madman like Ramsay is wise, even if you plan to deceive him.

    Methinks it’s more likely a reaction to the wildlings inching closer, and closer to his lands. But you’ve piqued my interest.

    I really enjoyed Jon Umber, his general attitude was hilarious and refreshing 😀

  426. A very gloomy, grim episode. At least it answers the question how Jon comes back. Not wolfish.

  427. Ice Spider:
    Ginevra,

    I see.. so Thorne was saving the other guys asses? Interesting … And is it just me or was Jon making sure Olly was looking into HIS eyes as he died? I don’t know if that was intentional or just me seeing something that wasn’t there? I’d like to think that he wanted Olly to be looking at him as he died.. definitely some sort of justice!

    Well, they were pairing down the plot and those who would die to just the four of them, yes. And perhaps they were the high conspirators, yes.

    We were meant to feel Olly’s betrayal as the worst. The others had never been like a true brother or son to Jon in the way Olly was. So the scene was staged to focus on that “et tu, Brute?”/Judas moment.

  428. On the preview for ep 4, Mereen scene, are those Masters of Astapor and Yunkai ? and does Tyrion and Varys have something sinister planned for them … I hope so 😀

  429. Howland Reed stabs Arthur Dayne in the back. Jaime Lannister stabs Aerys in the back. Very interesting

  430. I feared Arya’s young Padawan and Yoda scenes would be boring, but they were great.

  431. Geralt of Rivia: Maybe small force but in all honesty Ramsay will likely send a letter and we’ll get pink Letter show version. Which will prompt Jon to act.

    Jon will be gone: he basically has just resigned. And, yes, Ramsay will send a small force: but a small force will be all that they need. If we are getting only a season and a half after this, then the hole in the Wall that lets the Walkers through should be this year. And someone taking out Castle Black would be an easy way to set up that hole. The gun has been hung: we should expect them to fire it.

    (On a side note, I wonder if Jon will ever get to try out his “I died” excuse on Northerners. We could get our 2nd Monty Python routine of the series!)

  432. I.AM.SO.FREAKIN.MAD! I hope that this is a double cross by the Umbers, but I dare not get my hopes up 🙁 That looked like Shaggydog 🙁 Rickon looked upset when they brought the head out 🙁 I really hope they don’t know any torture with those two, I won’t be able to handle it. I’ll riot and rampage, I swear it by the old gods and the new!

    The rest of the episode was great, I just can’t stop thinking about how badly the Stark Family has suffered so far 🙁

  433. Does anyone wonder if there was some kind of change in the dynamics in the writers room? The show is so up and down this year. Still a lot of great gems, but more turds than usual (especially when dialogue is concerned). I always thought Benioff was the best writer out of the two, and I wonder if there is some tension between them that made Benioff stop rewriting some of Dan’s work (especially after the Emmy’s).

    The only pre GoT work I know of from the two of them is the 25th Hour (the movie) which I absolutely loved. I’ve heard Benioff’s other book is very good too, and he was the more successful screen writer of the two. Weiss’s book Lucky Wander boy has a 4 star rating on the major sites, and I think he wrote some scripts that never got made. It seems like his connection to Benioff is what got him his start in Hollywood though.

  434. ThisGirlHasNoName: So now they go to his house before he continues to the Citadel. Um, ok. You could have just gone there. ZZZZZZZZZ

    I agree. However, Baby Sam finally had his growth spurt: that was an 18 month old or so there.

  435. Ravyn:
    Anyone else think the Umbers are just setting up Ramsay? The whole not kneeling thing was conspicuous.

    That’s everyone’s one shred of hope lol

  436. Brother Scott,

    I didn’t understand why that was mentioned ? Isn’t howland reed neds friend? So killing him to protect Ned?

    Did I miss something ?

    I haven’t read the books so I need a show only explanation lol

  437. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Like I said, I enjoyed episode 2 immensely and was more than pleased with Euron’s debut. It’s not like I completely despise the show and hate every single minute of it. My frustrations are more out of witnessing a once great show become more and more inconsistent as time goes by. I’ve noticed a general decline in quality with the writing and direction the show is going in. I honestly wish this wasn’t the case. Nothing would please more than to see this show reach its potential and get back to the glory days of the first three seasons.

    This episode was hit or miss for me but I did enjoy some of it. Jon’s scenes were superb, I thought Kit did a tremendous job displaying the confusion and sadness of his situation. Although I could of swore he was wearing underwear in the previous episode, shameless attempt to show off his buttocks IMO :-p

  438. We are getting to the point in the show where people are just looking for things to complain about.

    I thought it was a fantastic episode. So far this entire season has been great. Not every episode can be Hardhome. They need to set up events.

    When I see people complaining about stuff with Rickon & Shaggydog, it is nearly comical. That plot line has just started and we know nothing of where it will lead. If you are complaining already about it, you are just looking to complain….

  439. Wimsey,

    Yes, you’re right that could have been poetic license. I originally took it to mean that he wasn’t BR (anymore?). But he could still be … without the wine stain raven birthmark that gave him his name …

  440. Lyanna_Targaryen:
    Ice Spider,

    One was killed by Tormund during the storming of CB, one was wiped across the stone wallby Wun Wun during the storming of CB, maybe one or two others also died in the fray that we didn’t see?

    Ah.. I didn’t think about them being the ones who were involved in JS murder. Just thought they were defending CB against the wildlings per Thorne’s orders. Thanks for that insight!! 😉

  441. Good episode with the north scenes. Great Toj scene. everyything was boring with tidbits of interesting details. I am scared of melisandres fanatism…

  442. VegoDread: I don’t think it is your dislike of the episode is what pissed people off (if that’s the case they need to grow the fuck up). I’m thinking, what’s annoying is that you just kept saying it over and over again. Why not say your piece and move on.

    I wouldn’t worry about it though – I personally did not care for episode 1 and said so on this site. Most of the Fandom disagreed with me, and told me so in no uncertain term.

    I didn’t give a shit and neither should you.

    Huh? I loved this episode and said so in the passage you quoted lol. I also disliked episode 1, so high five?

  443. LatrineDiggerBrian: Still a lot of great gems, but more turds than usual (especially when dialogue is concerned).

    The dialogue is just fine: it makes the points that need to be made. That is what dialogue should do.

  444. Wimsey,

    Pink Letter is easier way to do it. Since Sansa is probably truly at Castle Black and I looked at it again. That stone before the gate is similiar to what we saw before. Given now he has Rickon, he can negotiate and threaten Jon without going there. Rallying North, building it up to their clash at Winterfell is what we’ll likely get. Any clash before that would took away something.

    Small force is not impossible but I would expect them to build up biggest battle yet. Actually we have next to no idea bsides meting of Northern lords, Sansa and Jon possibly working together and Mormonts.

  445. Darkrobin: But he could still be … without the wine stain raven birthmark that gave him his name …

    Birth marks are very difficult to do well with makeup. Of course, many real birth marks often look like bad makeup jobs in the first place. And they often are visually distracting: people pay attention to the mark rather than what people are saying or doing.

  446. Cregan:
    Any chance Umber is conning Bolton along with Rickon and Osha?

    I so much hope so. Anyone has link to that reddit post by an extra who was at bastardbowl? I remember reading that [SPOILER for battle of winterfell]

    Umber was shouting ‘show me who owns the North’ to Ramsay. Seemed to me that Umber only fought wildlings, and may turn on Ramsay if he was getting defeated.

    However, Rickon’s reaction to seeing Shaggy’s severed head made me believe that it is really Shaggydog’s head. After all, black wolves are not that common.

  447. The Bastard: We are getting to the point in the show where people are just looking for things to complain about.

    for me, the anticipation is so high the first viewing, it’s almost impossible to just watch it. You’ve already bought so much emotional stock in it because of the Monday-Saturday discussions, that nothing you see can live up to your expectations. I find re-watching them away from the noise tends to bring out more nuance and depth than on first viewing.

  448. Al Swearengen:
    Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    Like I said, I enjoyed episode 2 immensely and was more than pleased with Euron’s debut. It’s not like I completely despise the show and hate every single minute of it. My frustrations are more out of witnessing a once great show become more and more inconsistent as time goes by. I’ve noticed a general decline in quality with the writing and direction the show is going in. I honestly wish this wasn’t the case. Nothing would please more than to see this show reach its potential and get back to the glory days of the first three seasons.

    This episode was hit or miss for me but I did enjoy some of it. Jon’s scenes were superb, I thought Kit did a tremendous job displaying the confusion and sadness of his situation. Although I could of swore he was wearing underwear in the previous episode, shameless attempt to show off his buttocks IMO :-p

    You need to find a new hobby…. or perhaps get more attention outside of the internet.

    The show has not lost quality. In fact it has gotten better each season. I just re-watched everything before the start of the season, and the writing has been even from the beginning.

    And Jon had a cloth on his body, not underwear. Why is it that the people who are most critical something are usually the ones who miss the details?

  449. Oleana,

    Then why title the TV series Game of Thrones? In that case, perhaps it should have been “As the World Turns, in Westeros”?

  450. Clob:
    I’m halfway through a second time and just saw that I didn’t even notice the second Child of the Forest in the cave on first watch.

    Was that Leaf or a different CotF?

  451. lisse:
    All I have to say I can’t deal with both Shaggy and Rickon dying, so if that is Shaggydog, please let Rickon live. I don’t know why I’m so attached.

    I’m having a hard time with it, too. Obviously, D&D ignored my request not to kill any more direwolves.

    And, I’m with those hoping that Smalljon has a plan and isn’t sending Rickon to his death.

  452. Wimsey,

    So you enjoyed the dialogue between Tyrion, Greyworm and Missandei? 🙂

    It did show that Tyrion was the odd man out. What indeed do they talk about when he is not there? Each other. Maybe that was the point?

  453. Geralt of Rivia: Pink Letter is easier way to do it.

    Right, but the Pink Letter is an ultimatum saying “deliver or die.” They will not be able to deliver. Ramsay knows that he needs Sansa for legitimacy: and, let’s face it, he seems to be just a little unreasonable about his toys. So, once the Crows fail to deliver, then Ramsay will feel the need to send a message. We have seen it before.

  454. ThisGirlHasNoName,

    Oleana,

    I didn’t mean to sound snarky, I’m actually sincere. In the early seasons KL and the king were the center of everything, including the side stories. It was scheming and plotting and maneuvering. Now we have a bunch of individual stories that barely, if ever, intersect. At some point isn’t there something that brings them all back together?

    Okay, the fight against the white walkers maybe, but even that seems awfully far off given how few episodes of the series remain.

  455. Tyrion Pimpslap: loved the ending with Ned turning around thinking he heard something.

    Remember in the books when Bran said he thought his father could hear him when he saw him at the heart tree in Winterfell? Bloodraven said something about hearing the wind, then, too. I love how they manage to work in little moments like that.

    Dee: I thought it was strange how the waif reacted to Walder Freys name .

    I noticed that, too. I’m glad it wasn’t just me.

  456. I seriously doubt Jon is going to be hiding in the Gift with Tormund while Sansa and Davos go on a northern tour. Jon needs to be there if they’re going to be led by Jon in battle. Just like before the season I knew it couldn’t just be Sansa rallying the houses. This isn’t an attack on Sansa I just think it would be sloppy writing if was just her and Davos.

  457. Tim of House Deddings:
    On the preview for ep 4, Mereen scene,are those Masters of Astapor and Yunkai?and does Tyrion and Varys have something sinister planned for them …I hope so

    They sounded like they wanted Dany to return. Surely she have some people supporting her in the city? Like Hizdahr’s people?

  458. I really liked this episodes. Less shocks than the last two, but that doesn’t make it boring. I felt like the plot really moved along.

    Only part that seemed off, was Mel mentioning to Jon that he could possibly be The Prince That Was Promised. Didn’t it seem kind of lackluster? If Jon is indeed TPTWP, then that was a weak reveal. Or even foreshadowing.

  459. Darkrobin: So you enjoyed the dialogue between Tyrion, Greyworm and Missandei?

    Yes, it was hysterical. What do you get when you lock a master conversationalist in a room with two people who never converse? On the grimmer side, it also showed us what “games” would mean to people who were possessions: and that’s important for Tyrion to understand.

    But, yes, yes, I know: if they had trimmed a minute off of it, then they could have shown us the entire Northern Conspiracy or something…. 😉

    Simon: Interesting that Mel said “the prince that was promised”.

    Yes, it was. It will be interesting to see if other red clerics reach a different conclusion…..

  460. teunteulai</str

    The scenes at the wall have been great, anything to do with Jon or the North really… which is awesome and all, but it is making it really hard for me to get into anything else happening right now. I'm mad when what's being shown does not pertain to any of those storylines lol. There have been a few good scenes outside those… Arya had good screen time tonight. Euron had an awesome scene and is probably the person I am most excited about apart from those mentioned before, but everything else seems to be lagging right now. Hopefully they catch up soon.

  461. Dee,

    Ned and many other people give Jaime, “Kingslayer”, such a hard time about dishonorably stabbing Aerys “the Mad King”, who Jaime was sworn to protect, in the back. Ned was always seen as a supremely honorable individual so I find it interesting how the scene took place and the story that was told afterwards that didn’t match the events.

  462. I hope one of the reasons they split up ToJ is that we see the reveal (somehow) through Jon’s eyes and not just Bran’s.

  463. Simon:
    Wimsey,

    Interesting that Mel said “the prince that was promised”.

    I can’t believe this comments section is already 600 deep and this is the first time somebody is mentioning the prince that was promised.

  464. Wimsey: The dialogue is just fine: it makes the points that need to be made.That is what dialogue should do.

    That is a really simplistic view of it. If that were the case, then mostly anyone could write great dialogue. Great dialogue is subtle and fits the character well.

    For instance, Tyrion’s line “punch me in the face” after freeing the dragons made the point that needed to be made – that he was scared shitless and what he did was insanely risky. I thought it was a poor line, but according to your logic he could’ve also said “Er mah gerd, punch me in the nuts if I do that again, ya herd?”. Gets the point across the same, but it’s a horrible line of dialogue for a million obvious reasons.

  465. Jack Bauer 24,

    Getting ready to do a rewatch, but I thought she named only Cersei, Gregor Clegane, and Walder Frey. The prospect of Melisandre’s being an assignment for Arya is intriguing. Is the FM “rule” that your victim must be someone you don’t know? (Thinking of all the sailors on the “Titan’s Daughter” who kept asking Arya to remember their names). Has Arya ever called Melisandre anything but the “Red Woman”?

    By the way, Jack, I always look forward to your comments. Well thought out and well said.

  466. A lot of people on twitter seem to think Jon will leave CB before Sansa gets there. I don’t think this will happen, but am still worried! Jon can’t just go off by himself right. He would need some other character to interact with! Besides, if he does receive the PL, which looks likely, he will have to receive it at CB itself.

  467. Lord Stoneheart:
    teunteulai</str


    The scenes at the wall have been great, anything to do with Jon or the North really… which is awesome and all, but it is making it really hard for me to get into anything else happening right now. I’m mad when what’s being shown does not pertain to any of those storylines lol. There have been a few good scenes outside those… Arya had good screen time tonight. Euron had an awesome scene and is probably the person I am most excited about apart from those mentioned before, but everything else seems to be lagging right now. Hopefully they catch up soon.

    It’s sort of like watching The Two Towers and Return of the King for me. I just wanted to get back to Aragorn’s scenes.

  468. Brother Scott,

    What story that was told Afterwards? I may have missed something I was too excited

    Bran said his father told him he killed dayne – but he did ?
    Yes reed stabbed him in the back but ultimately Ned killed him

  469. crimethink,

    Kevan controls the army for now. Whether that remains the case remains to be seen but I’d guess not. Also, little birds work cheaply. I wonder if Varys might be able to retake control in case he leaves Meereen and returns to Westeros at any point this season and what thay might do to Qyburn’s candied plum cart

  470. A lot of book purists will bemoan a dual wielding Dayne but honestly…it was a brilliant move.

    After the choreo in Jaime’s fight in Dorne, the fighting pits and Brienne vs the Bolton men I was worried about the choreo for ToJ. Two swords was the best way to avoid the one man charges at a time kung fu bull ish.

  471. Al Swearengen:

    I am very happy to see people were satisfied with the scene and enjoyed it. I am not trying to rain on anyone’s parade at all, I was merely just expressing my initial disappointment. Perhaps it’s a kneejerk reaction on my part.

    Maybe I was just too amped up, ToJ is arguably one of my most favorite moments from the books and ever since the rumors began to swirl I’ve been greatly anticipating it. Perhaps once I’ve had some sleep and rewatch the episode in the morning I’ll appreciate it more.

    PS Anyone else kinda respect the way Thorne chose to bow out?

    You know, I didn’t enjoy it either, and I’m not sure why. It wasn’t the dialogue, or the acting, I don’t think. It just didn’t work for me. I see you and I are in the minority – which I’m glad about, actually! I love this show and am genuinely pleased for it’s ongoing success. I hope a rewatch will help me appreciate it more.

    I also agree with you about Thorne. He went out with dignity, and got in a barb about how he gets to rest, and Jon doesn’t. Poor bastard. I think the Jon/Davos scene was particularly strong. SmallJon was fantastic. “Your father was a cunt.” Yes, SmallJon. Yes he was.

  472. Louis: I seriously doubt Jon is going to be hiding in the Gift with Tormund while Sansa and Davos go on a northern tour.

    It looks like Jon just quit the Nights Watch: and the penalty for that is death. Claiming “I got better” is not going to work. Besides, I think that the show just confirmed that Jon is not going to be real popular with a lot of Northerners right now: he let the barbarians past the gate.

  473. I must say, in event that Karstarks and Umbers are plotting against Ramsay, they are making a good show with all the set ups for ultimate betrayal. After all, they could be plotting against Ramsay without being loyal to the Starks. If Roose could kill Robb and become Warden of the North, why can’t Karstarks (who are kin to the Starks) become the new overlords of the North? House Bolton is reduced to a mad dog who won’t be missed by anyone. House Stark is believed to be extinct. Sansa is a girl, she could be married off to some lord (they don’t know she is becoming a badass a queen). Bran is lost, Rickon will be taken care of by Ramsay. Jon and Wildlings too, if things go the rebel lords’ way. It is at this situation that we need Wyman Manderly to come in as the biggest (literally) Stark ally ever and turn the table around to have a GNC conclusion. Wouldn’t that be sweet?

  474. Al Swearengen,

    Re: Umber the Oathbreaker

    Didn’t anyone notice that in an earlier season in that awesome scene when Greatjon Umber threatens to leave King Robb’s army – Robb says that if he leaves then after dealing with the Lannisters he’ll kill him for the ‘Oathbreaker‘ that he is –

    Greatjon then angrily exclaims: “Oathbreaker!!”, before Grey Wind lightens the mood by biting his fingers off.

    The way the audience thought he was about to betray the Starks before he thankfully didn’t – then considering this episodes title – maybe Smalljon’s betrayal of the Starks follows a similar way, albeit more intense and precarious.

    Three reasons to clutch onto, that people have mentioned so far:

    1 – The Manderly story arc in the books. Surely such a crucial twist would work better with a house already established in the show, like the Umbers.
    2- The Shaggydog being already dead theory, and the head being an appeasement for the Bolton Bastard.
    3 – Smalljon’s refusal to take an oath – maybe the ‘Northern honour’ prevents him from a false oath.

  475. Wimsey: It looks like Jon just quit the Nights Watch: and the penalty for that is death.Claiming “I got better” is not going to work.Besides, I think that the show just confirmed that Jon is not going to be real popular with a lot of Northerners right now: he let the barbarians past the gate.

    He didn’t quit the nights watch. Your watch is over when you die. He died. His watch is over.

  476. Jack Bauer 24,

    I think she has just neatly conflated two prophesies into one for Dan and Dave.

    Wimsey,

    We don’t know if Jon has gone gone yet. I mean he might just be stepping out to right his name in the snow. Even if he is literally gone he can’t be far off. So a message may in fact get to him.

  477. Dee,

    Ned would have died in that fight if it weren’t do Howland stabbing Dayne from behind, the tales made it like Ned killed him in a fair duel but didn’t.

  478. iridium,

    Glad to know I am not alone. Thanks for the kind response 🙂

    I hope our opinions may change with a rewatch. Fingers crossed!

  479. LatrineDiggerBrian: That is a really simplistic view of it. If that were the case, then mostly anyone could write great dialogue. Great dialogue is subtle and fits the character well.

    Great dialog communicates succinctly. Most people are incapable of communicating succinctly, and thus cannot write good dialog.

    LatrineDiggerBrian: I thought it was a poor line, but according to your logic he could’ve also said “Er mah gerd, punch me in the nuts if I do that again, ya herd?”.

    It was a good line because it communicated what he felt well. Everyone here has used a variant of that line before. Your line takes up way too many words.

  480. Al Swearengen: PS Anyone else kinda respect the way Thorne chose to bow out?

    Absolutely! Owen Teale has been fantastic from the start but the past 2 seasons, really owned the character. I really liked that Thorne, to the bitter end, really felt he was doing the right thing “for the watch”. Therein lies the conflict. He wasn’t wrong in what he said (what he did to the Lord Commander is another thing!) but he also didn’t see what Jon and the Wildlings did at Hardhome. Thorne’s war at Castle Black was different than Jons.

    And sweet Jesus. Can people stop getting butthurt if someone isn’t fawning over every moment or are critical of certain aspects of an episode? If you think every moment is epic and flawless, great! If you question continuity or feasibility or character direction, that’s great too! Who cares?! This is a spot for opinions. There will never, ever be a time when every comment is “This is the greatest scene/character/storyline ever!”. People pick-up and respond to different things. What would there be to discuss or debate if we loved every moment, every episode? I love reading the differing opinions because, for me, I may pick-up on something I missed or didn’t register in the first viewing.

  481. keltia:
    Jack Bauer 24,

    Getting ready to do a rewatch, but I thought she named only Cersei, Gregor Clegane, and Walder Frey.The prospect of Melisandre’s being an assignment for Arya is intriguing.Is the FM “rule” that your victim must be someone you don’t know?(Thinking of all the sailors on the “Titan’s Daughter” who kept asking Arya to remember their names). Has Arya ever called Melisandre anything but the “Red Woman”?

    By the way, Jack, I always look forward to your comments. Well thought out and well said.

    Thanks 🙂

  482. The actor who played Arthur Dayne was superb. He had presence. I wish he could have played Rhaegar.

  483. Geralt of Rivia:
    Wimsey,

    Maybe small force but in all honesty Ramsay will likely send a letter and we’ll get pink Letter show version. Which will prompt Jon to act. He’s now free in his mind of this oath and can march. Also Umbers must know horde of Wildlings is not really a horde. Just 5000 and a lot of them are older people, children and women. But their siding with Boltons makes sense. Glad to see a bit of Darth Jon there and bcoming different persona being more ruthless. Even executing kid.

    Well Ramsey cleaned his RED knife over Roose’s letters that he was writing so Im sure the Pink Letter is coming soon.

  484. Lyanna_Targaryen:
    *Tinfoil theory* (spoilers from tonight below)

    Maybe I’m reaching. But I hope not.

    I like how you think

    Ok, upon rewatching there are some points for me:
    – I loved everything Castle Black, it was damn perfect
    – Now that i’m not desperate to know what comes next i appreciated so much more young Ned, his face and mannerisms were spot on, very much alike Sean Bean
    – Still think the fight was badass as fuck
    – Even in the scenes with the helmet on, you could still see how Dayne would rather not have to fight these people, he was pretty perfect too
    – Arya’s scenes were awesome too, they set up a lot of things, both in this episode and the ones to come (some i’m pretty sure are gonna surprise me even), lots of guns hanged there, besides her training was also badass, loved Maisie, loved the Waif, loved No One, I’m intrigued by everyone’s reactions to Arya’s tale
    – I will be the first to admit that it might be wishful thinking on my part, but if ou pause the scene with shaggydog’s head when smalljon is still holding it, it seems awfully small compared to say, Ghost’s, then again, wishful thinking (even if there will be some big mental gymnastics to justify this plot)
    – Jon’s mic drop was awesome, and deserved

  485. Finally EP04 is right there! Can’t wait for Dany to yell “Dracarys” again. The trailers showed us she was touching one of those braziers. I wonder if it’s her to start a fire or something or if she’ll have to rely on Drogon again. I just hope it’s not Daario and Jorah helping her out. Sounds absurd.

    Arya’s scnes were good today. Another plot which should start moving. And again they mentioned The Hound…

  486. Dee,

    The story told was that Ned had killed Arthur (I feel with the assumption is that he killed him alone) which Bran mentions.

  487. Simon: We don’t know if Jon has gone gone yet. I mean he might just be stepping out to right his name in the snow.

    That looked like the act of resignation that many people here (although not me!) predicted. Jon and the Wildlings will depart: they basically need to do so, as they cannot keep so many people near Castle Black.

    Once they do depart, contacting them would be difficult.

    Darkrobin: You mean the desperately hoped for NC that all are waiting for with bated breath?

    Well, some…. (I, for one, have been skeptical that that there is a Great Northern Conspiracy.)

  488. ughhh not Rickon )): how are they ever going to save that poor kid? god dammit the starks have suffered enough! but i guess ramsey taking Rickon is exactly the kind of push it will take for Jon and Sansa to retake Winterfell…

    Jon’s scenes were absolutely superb i wish he was harder on allister and olley though, seeing them die was so satisfying and jon saying “my watch has ended” was so exciting

    ToJ was good and I hyped myself up for R+L=J this week but honestly it will be a better reveal in small increments and clues that Bran must put together.

  489. ghost of winterfell,

    No, that won’t happen.

    Davos is still at the Wall in 604, and Mel is still there in 605, based on that promo photo that many people believe has the hem of Sansa’s dress in the lower left. Seeing as Mel thinks Jon might be her personal Jesus now, there’s no way she’d still be there if Jon wasn’t. And per the synopsis for 605 released by HBO, Brienne is sent on a mission in that episode, which implicitly means Sansa’s going elsewhere with other people. We can infer from the trailer that both she and Davos are on Bear Island, and given that the season has spent three episodes depicting Davos as Jon’s #1 supporter, it makes little sense for him to throw up his hands and ride off with Jon’s sister instead.

    Wimsey:
    Great dialog communicates succinctly.Most people are incapable of communicating succinctly, and thus cannot write good dialog.

    It was a good line because it communicated what he felt well.Everyone here has used a variant of that line before.Your line takes up way too many words.

    There’s a lot more to good dialogue than that (and quite a lot of the best dialogue is anything but succinct).

  490. I liked how Gilly wasn’t a whinging wilding for once, and she cleaned her face!

  491. Wimsey,

    I agree with you that great dialogue communicates succinctly, but I think that’s only one of the many facets of great dialogue.

    And I disagree with you about the “punch me in the face” line. Though it’s possible “punch me in the face” could’ve been used in Medieval times, it seems more a contemporary phrase that I’d expect to hear in an Adam Sandler movie.

    And my line was intentionally atrocious and it wasn’t only because it wasn’t succinct. It was because it used ridiculous modern phrases that a teenager would say.

  492. Al Swearengen: Anyone else kinda respect the way Thorne chose to bow out?

    Yes. I hated this caulkswabber, but I respected him. In the whole consideration of “good” and “evil,” people don’t seem to notice much that when someone does something “evil” it is often in their overzealous attempt to do something “good.” Except Ramsay. He’s just EEEEVIIILLL cuz being EEEEVIIILLL is so much FUNNNNNN etc.

  493. Simon,

    Darkrobin,

    She has called stannis TPTWp twice in the books too .

    I haven’t seen the episode yet …but it looks like Arthur dayne was awesome…can’t wait to see ..

    One thing iam glad is that looking at preview for next episode whatever happens with dany it will be by her own actions not drogon or darrio or jorah .

  494. Brother Scott,
    As I recall, Ned never (actively) claimed to have killed Arthur Dayne. In the books, Ned tells Bran that Dayne would have killed him if not for the little crannogman, Howland Reed. We did not know how exactly Howland saved Ned’s life. Wild theories included magic and skinchanging done by Reed. Now we see that Dayne was stabbed in the back by Reed, then killed by Ned. I think Ned did not deny killing Dayne, to save Reed the title of backstabber. Arthur Dayne was a loved and respected knight. Howland already faced so much insult from other people (eg: Tourney of Harrenhal), so Ned may have sacrificed his own honor to let Reed keep his. You may say Ned got the chance to be renown as man who defeated Arthur Dayne, but that was not something he enjoyed, especially after he met with Lyanna, I guess.

  495. I thought it was a great episode personally. There were a few scenes that some people would describe as filler, but this was overall probably a cheaper than average episode to shoot, so they’ll probably saving some of the big dollars until when it really matters. I enjoyed every scene, particularly the Varys and KL ones.

    It was predicted by many people before the episode that there would be complaints about ToJ. They cannot win with a scene like that at all. I liked it myself and thought the fight choreography was incredible, but I hope the people who didn’t like it understand why D&D couldn’t win.

    No idea what the complaints about dialogue are about. There were a few instances last week which seemed off to me, but certainly nothing this week.

    The only scenes that perhaps dragged a little were the Castle Black ones, but I can see why they’re taking it slow with Jon’s reintroduction.

    This was going to be quite short, but I’ve gone on a bit! I’ll post my full thoughts in the Recap in the morning, but overall another stellar episode!

  496. Wimsey,

    A good read, W. However, since honorable Ned disposed of the WW crier and called it a teachable moment to Bran, I have never been in the Ned-is-great club. His secrets, naivete and hypocrisy are coming forth!

    Bran’s discovery of the Targ-Stark link, with or without BR’s support, will be fantastic, regardless of how much speculation there has been online. And Bran’s further “lingering” exploration into Jon’s tale will be stunning. I also think that all this is tip-of-the-iceberg stuff compared to what TWoW will contain.
  497. The fight was good, but agree they should have kept the few extra lines of original dialogue to ramp up the tension and make the whole situation a little more clear. Don’t know if Umber (and Rickon) are playing Ramsey or not, but either way it was nice to see someone not being afraid of him.

  498. Brother Scott,

    But also that if not for HR Ned would not have survived … I think it was just unclear what that meant. People assumed … For some reason I don’t think Ned was the type really talk about what happened … especially as that would involve discussing Lyanna

  499. gewa76,

    so you’re the new admin in town, are you? you’re the one running this site?
    sorry, i was under the impression people were allowed to voice their opinions on this site whether they agreed with you or not. not everyone has to think the same way or like the same things. this is called diversity. and it works very well in the real world, though obviously not your world. if you are looking for a world where everyone thinks as you do, i hear north korea is taking applications. it’s mandatory for all to think the same there.
    i was also led to believe that name calling and general nastiness were not tolerated on this site. yet, her you are.

  500. Can we just talk about Max von Sydow in this episode? My GOD, he is an amazing actor. Sold me as 3-Eyed Raven from the start! But damn you for not showing him the rest of the vision, I think he took him out after Bran called out his father and that he actually freaking heard him!!! And to hide from him what was in the tower.

    The screaming from the tower sounded like

    Lyanna giving birth…..

    So episode 5 we will find out I bet, which sucks lol.

  501. As a martial artist my self , I wish I could weild swords like fucking Arthur Dayne. That was sick

  502. Sean C.,

    Yeah, I agree. I just got worried, coz I really need that Stark re-union dammit! And yeah, the way Davos – Jon relationship is being depicted, it looks like he will go on to be his number 1 man, going ahead.

  503. LatrineDiggerBrian: Though it’s possible “punch me in the face” could’ve been used in Medieval times, it seems more a contemporary phrase that I’d expect to hear in an Adam Sandler movie.

    That is irrelevant. It is a figure of speech. People have always used figures of speech: they are not modern inventions. It would be horrible writing to dredge up some medieval figure of speech that was used in it’s stead: it would mean nothing to anyone.

    But this is one thing that fantasy fans do not get: everybody has always used contemporary phrases. Using modern figures of speech is just as appropriate as is using English when setting a story in Ancient Rome: if you use Latin or archaic figures of speech or archaic idioms, then nobody will understand what you are trying to communicate. And for a purely fictional tale like this one, there really is no “back then.”

    People in that world would have had some line or idiom for “next time, stop me” and they would have used it in that context. So, a good writer will use the line that we use now then so that the audience will understand.

    LatrineDiggerBrian: And my line was intentionally atrocious and it wasn’t only because it wasn’t succinct. It was because it used ridiculous modern phrases that a teenager would say.

    No, your line was attrocious solely because of excess words. The modern part is of zero relevance: Tyrion would have used an equivalent of a modern phrase just as he was using equivalents of “the” and “wine” and “dragon”: so, use the equivalent. After all, this is a story, not a documentary of fake idioms.

  504. Jack Bauer 24:
    Am I the only one who loved the Tyrion scene?

    You are not. Especially loved Tyrion’s look of intense relief when Varys returned, saving him from that scintillating “conversation”.

  505. Arya definitely named The Red Woman after she took Gendry. She fell off the list in season 5 I believe. I think she might have only appeared on her list once – like Thoros and Beric.

  506. Also, 3-Eyed Raven wants Bran to learn everything, I hope we get to see some White Walker visions soon! I am so eager to find out more about them. And to maybe actually hear them speak…..

  507. Wimsey,

    So its about timing now. When will they go and when will the message be sent. Ramsey may of course make the letter pink with Rickon’s blood and give him a finder or two to show that he is serious. Something like “give me back my wife or your brother dies”. The idea of course to draw the wildlings, Jon and Sansa into a trap. I Jo leaves before Sansa arrives I’ll be incredibly pissed. It’s worse in the books but the number of times people almost cross paths is just irritating.

  508. “Back Alley Sally” was used by Cat in season 1. That’s modern slang for sure.

  509. Dee,

    So what if the FM

    have a contract out on Walder Frey? The “Waif” reacts with dismay to the idea that the No One formerly known as Arya Stark miiight be sent to unselfishly kill someone appearing on her list as some kind of test?
  510. The Umber introduction was strong – I was all set to like this guy, especially when he called Ramsay on the “Roose was poisoned” baloney. “You killed him. Your father was a cunt.” And the remark that Karstark liked young boys. Then his gift actually turned out to be Rickon and Osha. and Shaggy. Damn. It made me laugh to see all the anguish over Shaggydog, way more than for Olly. So I guess the Umbers are traitors.

    I loved Varys’ scene but couldn’t decide if it meant that that whore was the secret head of the Harpys. Was she THAT important, that he’d give her a bag of silver to get her out of town? Kind of confusing. Tyrion’s scene have been confusing. Don’t know what the writers are getting at.

    Arya got her eyes back! Maisie is so cool, she’s handling her scene like a pro this year. Cheers. Dany, too. Have to watch again to figure out what the head Widow was talking about. Is Dany going to be up for some judgment now? Jeeez. Everyone gets tested, everyone gets judged.

    Loved the astounded look on Mel’s face. She couldn’t possibly have opened her eyes any wider. Jon. Yay Jon. Kit was excellent. excellent. Did his job, dropped the mic and declared his watch was over.

    Will comment on the TOJ after I watch again.
    Good evening, all

  511. Ginevra: There are lots of those on a show about tits and dragons, right?

    Lol. I may have missed an adjective. Maybe “creatively dickless” would be better.

  512. Darkrobin,

    I think I spliced Ned and Theon together in my head, and it’s Theon I’m thinking of.

    Bran and BR had a conversation where BR mentioned he just heard the wind, and that Bran can’t communicate with people through the weirnet. That’s actually what made me think Bran may end up surpassing BR in power when I was doing a reread.
  513. Wimsey:
    People in that world would have had some line or idiom for “next time, stop me” and they would have used it in that context.So, a good writer will use the line that we use now then so that the audience will understand.

    Not if the line feels too contemporary, which many evidently feel this line did. There are plenty of ways such a sentiment can be phrased.

  514. ghost of winterfell: And yeah, the way Davos – Jon relationship is being depicted, it looks like he will go on to be his number 1 man, going ahead.

    It seems that both Mel and Davos have found their Stannis substitute.

  515. Wimsey,

    When I’m talking about contemporary, I’m talking about phrases people use today (in our time) that never would’ve been used back then. Like for instance, Tyrion would never say “it’s lit”. Do you agree with that, or you think would be a valid line of dialogue?

  516. Thronetender,

    She wasn’t the Harpy, just a means of getting at the Harpy , or rather as Varys told us the good masters of Yunkai, Ataspor and Valyria – moving the plot back towards that of the books.

  517. Dee,

    I have seen him before, I don’t remember where, but he is a great actor. Even in that short scene he was great.

  518. Wimsey: It seems that both Mel and Davos have found their Stannis substitute.

    It’s all leading to the great war..

    Jon Snow will have Davos as his hand…. And he will have Direwolves and White Walkers….

    vs.

    Dany will have Tyrion as her hand. And have Dragons….

    Going to be epic….

  519. Re: Umber the Oathbreaker

    Didn’t anyone notice that in an earlier season in that awesome scene when Greatjon Umber threatens to leave King Robb’s army – Robb says that if he leaves then after dealing with the Lannisters he’ll kill him for the ‘Oathbreaker‘ that he is –

    Greatjon then angrily exclaims: “Oathbreaker!!”, before Grey Wind lightens the mood by biting his fingers off.

    The way the audience thought he was about to betray the Starks before he thankfully didn’t – then considering this episodes title – maybe Smalljon’s betrayal of the Starks follows a similar way, albeit more intense and precarious.

    Three reasons to clutch onto, that people have mentioned so far:

    1 – The Manderly story arc in the books. Surely such a crucial twist would work better with a house already established in the show, like the Umbers.
    2- The Shaggydog being already dead theory, and the head being an appeasement for the Bolton Bastard.
    3 – Smalljon’s refusal to take an oath – maybe the ‘Northern honour’ prevents him from a false oath.

  520. Simon,

    El-Bobbie,

    That means she hasn’t learned anything from stannis and quick to jump on another one immediately after jon comes back.
    She knew people have come back from dead before and that too many time …this was nothing unheard of ….she is again blinding herself ..

    Note: am not saying Jon is not special or anything like that but Mel must take time before judging or calling when she knew there are similar people out there …
    I have to see the episode to see the way she said that though

  521. bobby:
    ughhh not Rickon )): how are they ever going to save that poor kid? god dammit the starks have suffered enough! but i guess ramsey taking Rickon is exactly the kind of push it will take for Jon and Sansa to retake Winterfell…

    Jon’s scenes were absolutely superb i wish he was harder on allister and olley though, seeing them die was so satisfying and jon saying “my watch has ended” was so exciting

    ToJ was good and I hyped myself up for R+L=J this week but honestly it will be a better reveal in small increments and clues that Bran must put together.

    I don’t think Rickon being taken is necessarily the hair that breaks the camels back for Sansa/Jon to retake Winterfell. I think the fact that Winterfell has always been ruled by a Stark and there are still Starks alive will be enough reason to take it back. But it might make it happen a lot faster then they may have wanted to try.

  522. It was good to see the luscious Natalia Tena again, although I am mentally prepping a grim curtain call for her. Osha!

  523. Chad Brick: I can be excited. And I can be disappointed, annoyed, or outright angry when the show botches things. The two big offenders for me are plot holes (inexplicable, irrational behavior, teleporting, apparent invisibility, impossibly large conspiracies, improbable chance meetings, etc) and major changes to character’s arcs (Brienne, Stannis, and Selmy, for example). Little things like frivolous changes to lines (eg, “Only Cat”) are mere pinpricks of dissapointment in comparison.

    Obviously condensing 8000 dense pages into 75 hours of TV requires major editing and compromise. But that doesn’t imply we have no right to criticize the choices made.

    Sure, pookwanker. Problem is, you criticize every choice they make, honeybunny. Go cuddle up with Al, dude.

  524. Sean C.: Not if the line feels too contemporary, which many evidently feel this line did. There are plenty of ways such a sentiment can be phrased.

    Tyrion would have used contemporary turns-of-phrase. Therefore, use a contemporary turn-of-phrase. And it’s hardly too “modern”: it’s been around since I was young.

    Remember, there never was a way that people spoke “back then.” People have always just spoken. The closest that we have to a real change in English is that we’ve dropped the formal vs. informal “you” vs. “thee/thou” which other Germanic languages retain with the Sie/Ihr vs. “du/dir.” Of course, “thee” and “thou” now sound like the formal rather than the informal!

    Other than that, how we speak has changed over the years, but the spectrum of intentions behind the words has not. Good dialog captures the spectrum of intentions. Using turns of phrase communicates something else: usually you would use a line like “next time I suggest that, smack me” to a friend and/or under a circumstance where we salvaged something from a very risky endeavor. Using a turn-of-phrase therefore communicates both feelings and relationship.

  525. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

    And there may have been a vision that Bran had of Ned in the book where he was cleaning his sword and Bran said his name and Ned thought he might have heard something … the wind … leaves rustling … who knows how the sounds come through … but I do remember Reek hearing Theon … though it is not clear who said that … BR or Bran

  526. dragonbringer,

    Jon actually has a connection to ptwp and what if they separate aar and ptwp. What Tormund said in the preview was about Jon being some kind of God. It’s what people believes in and wildlings, night’s watch, Mel believes in Jon now and you can’t really blame them after this miracle. Different from Stannis debacle. She blindly followed her faith without and now she saw this from first hand experience. Dothraki and Daario will believe in Daeny after her miracle. Jorah already saw one. See the parallel. Basically we have two Jesus like figures on opposite sides of the world. Given how they like to pair I wouldn’t be surprised if two babies were born at TOJ and not one. But if I had something to back it up other than my gut feeling.

  527. The Bastard,

    Somehow, I doubt that is where it is headed!

    Hodors Bastard: It was good to see the luscious Natalia Tena again, although I am mentally prepping a grim curtain call for her. Osha!

    Me, too: but I am betting that it will be after the Bastard Bowl.

  528. Wimsey,

    There is also the issue of knowing Davos will team up with Sansa because of the trailers so there has to be some cross over, unless Jon goes it alone – which he might do for an ep or two. The trailer also shows us who he’s keeping company latter in the series so I’d suggest any me time or tree time he has will be short.

  529. The Bastard:
    “Back Alley Sally” was used by Cat in season 1.That’s modern slang for sure.

    Is that an old phrase that was used back then that we still use today? There are plenty of those. But there are also plenty of phrases that were invented by millennials or whoever that weren’t used 100s of years ago. According to Wimsey, Tyrion could say to Varys “you my nigga” and it would be totally be valid dialogue because it’s succinct.

  530. Wimsey: Tyrion would have used contemporary turns-of-phrase.Therefore, use a contemporary turn-of-phrase.

    Er, no. There’s an art to using language that is accessible to contemporary viewers but which communicates a period setting.

  531. You gotta feel for Dolorous Edd, Jon gets killed and resurrected within the span of a couple days and what does he do, hands him command of the Night’s Watch. Which means it’s now his task to defend The Wall against The Night’s King, poor guy, his future doesn’t look promising.

  532. Sean C.: Er, no.There’s an art to using language that is accessible to contemporary viewers but which communicates a period setting.

    EXACTLY.

  533. Darkrobin,

    Not really a great memory, lol, just that I keep rewatching all the happy Stark scenes to forget the horrors they’ve gone through.

    Do any of you guys think the writers had that in mind though?

  534. Ginevra:
    So, Arya got her eyes back before any warging took place.But D&D and Sackheim were hinting hard that there would be wolf-warging for all of the Stark children.If not Blind Beth, when?#lonewolfdiesbutthepacksurvives

    My thoughts exactly. We’ve got

    the upcoming theater troupe arc…. soooooooo? Maybe given the family recap tonight, and watching the theater performance play out- she starts linking back in with her pack- perhaps this instigates some wolfdreams?
  535. Thronetender,

    As for Vary’s giving the bag of silver. I think it had more to do with her innocent son. He being very likely in tune with kids being mistreated as he was once. So I am guessing (and he said it to her in the scene) that he was doing it more for her son then for her good. IMHO that is…

  536. Denial speaking: What about this for show version of GNC?
    Umbers, Karstarks, and Manderlys plot together for the downfall of Boltons and restoration of Starks. But Roose will see through them easily, so they send the least person with most reason to betray Starks, ie Harald Karstark, to Roose and Ramsay. Karstark puts ideas in Ramsay’s head, convinces him that Ramsay doesn’t need Roose to rule the North. Ramsay kills Roose, and Karstark is now the best buddy of Ramsay. Now enter Smalljon Umber, with Osha and Rickon. They give Osha to Ramsay, and suggests that Karstark is a pedophile. They also establish that Karstarks and Umbers have no respect for each other. Unsuspecting of collusion between the two bannermen, Ramsay gives Rickon to Karstark to ‘enjoy’, thus Rickon only moves from the custody of one loyal bannerman to another. Maybe they are hoping that Osha will kill Ramsay in the bed or something. Then Rickon will be lord of Winterfell, and Karstark and his men (surely he did not come alone to Winterfell, and he seems to be there for a long stay – or he could simply gather his army “to fight Jon Snow”) Clearly this is not gonna work, and most probably Osha will die, like Holly did in DwD. But at least until the day of battle, Rickon will mostly be in the care of Karstark rather than Ramsay, or so hopes Umber.
    Regarding the wolfs head, Ramsay’s love for hunting is well-known. Why not bring a caged shaggy for Ramsay to torture? If we use Tyrion’s season 5 wisdom (how will the cock merchant know it came from a dwarf unless he sees the dwarf?), Umbers should not have beheaded Shaggy if it was really shaggy. I wouldn’t say this if the head looked as large as Grey Wind’s did, but this head looked small.
    Only two things (other than the overall flimsiness of the theory) makes me think this is total denial and nothing else:
    (i) Rickon’s reaction to seeing shaggy’s head
    (ii) Karstark’s reaction to being called a gay pedophile.

  537. Ice Spider: I don’t think Rickon being taken is necessarily the hair that breaks the camels back for Sansa/Jon to retake Winterfell. I think the fact that Winterfell has always been ruled by a Stark and there are still Starks alive will be enough reason to take it back. But it might make it happen a lot faster then they may have wanted to try.

    Ugh… meant STRAW that breaks the camels back.. lol .. Im tired! Going to bed!!

  538. Geralt of Rivia,

    The dragon has three heads, and collectively they are AA Reborn/pwwp. Dany and Jon are two of the heads. Tyrion or Bran is the other. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it.

  539. Does anyone see The Waif as a baddie? Yeah she’s been miserable to Arya, but it’s all been within the context of trying to train her. It’s really tough love. I can’t see why she would be on Arya’s list.

  540. Geralt of Rivia,

    I think both are same and they will present them as one…there is very well chance that both dany and Jon will be the one ..
    I too feel that there is a chance that there will be more to TOJ than what we know or what we guess…can George actually make us believe and fooled us all along…I doubt and don’t know..
    We will wait and see

    But I not talking about wildlings ..iam talking about Mel particularly… Wildlings never seen such an event and so they can think Jon as god but Mel on other hand know that people have been brought back from the dead like Jon was …and she knew there was nothing related to prophecy was fulfilled by Jon yet …but she jumps to conclusion again ..its like what happened with stannis again…she must think through before calling like this .

  541. My Oathbreaker thoughts:

    * I will forever vouch for Maisie Williams. That kid can steal a scene with a lift of her eyebrow. I know that the whole warg theme has been a no show but I really believe that they are going to bring it with Nymeria. (Specially with what they just did) #Ivegotafeeling

    * Everyone needs a Daavos in their life.

    * I really see the Umbers doing what they did. Remember that the North is currently a disaster zone. Winter really is coming and people are in dire situations, pretty much every ‘house’ for themselves without the Starks.

    * I’m sorry but the Khalessi sorority is exactly what Dany needs. She became a power junkie, entitled queen just because of her last name. Sorry. She needs a good dose of humble pie or else she is the same as Viserys.

    * I was just browsing twitter and it’s a 50-50 response to TTOJ.
    We are done with the books people, let’s be real and have open minds especially with a part of the story that isn’t clear to begin with! I liked it. Would have liked a better looking Ned because (hello young Sean Bean wink wink). I really liked the cocky kingsguard and I feel like that flashback is going to come back again. That somehow Bran is going into dreamland all by himself and follow young Ned up those stairs and “promise me”…

    * And finally I have to end with my favorite topic: WHERE’S GENDRY? lol

  542. Just FYI to people, if this has already been said I apologize, but I think Arthur Dayne was wielding Dawn in the actual fight. It even had more than just the pommel, the stuff the sword was made of didn’t look like regular steel.

  543. Danny,

    Completely agree! Love the dialogue in the books but have always thought it would not translate well to the screen. Thought the fight itself was amazing.

  544. Unpopular opinion, I don’t care about Rickon as a character. Mind you, I don’t want to see him tortured or killed, but I’ve always found him to be a useless character who I had zero connection to. I was never fond about him hiding out while all of the Starks I cared about died or became a tree, only for him to come back in the end and become Lord Of Winterfell. I’d rather he stayed away and lived happily ever after with the unicorns on Skaagos.

  545. Dee:
    Connor,

    I was going to say : he’s hotttttttttt

    Damn!

    While I always appreciate eye-candy (and, as Sue has pointed out, they’ve been really generous in casting lots of nice-looking men for this season), it’s rare someone makes me drool uncontrollably. From the moment his casting was announced, I’ve needed a hankie nearby to wipe the drool off my chin whenever I saw a picture of him.

    Daaaaaaaamn.

  546. Whether he’s gonna die or not, I’m really glad the show did not recast Rickon. One does not simply recast a Stark!

  547. Odd that the head Khal widow didn’t seem afraid or even curious about Dany’s dragons. But I guess she and the other widows don’t get out much.

    Btw, a bit of trivia: When he was younger, the musically talented Howland Reed seriously thought about leaving Greywater Watch, moving to Chicago and changing his name to Howland Wolf. Most people don’t know that. 😉

  548. Dee:
    Ice Spider,

    Yup
    Followed by the little birds revelation in the next scene. Loved it

    Yes… so that was a hint that he has control over those “birds” and they are there for his purpose? I am still not sure who has control over the birds yet in KL… I mean REAL control esp. since sweets is really all they work for!! lol

  549. The Bastard: It’s all leading to the great war..

    Jon Snow will have Davos as his hand…. And he will have Direwolves and White Walkers….

    vs.

    Dany will have Tyrion as her hand.And have Dragons….

    Going to be epic….

    I’m sorry. Why is Jon fighting w the White Walkers? You’re getting ahead of yourself.

  550. I do think Sansa will see Jon next episode. We’ll also catch up with LF finally (and Robyn!) and we should also get some Drogon action! Big budget scene I think. Can’t wait to see how big Drogon is!

  551. Simon:
    Thronetender,

    She wasn’t the Harpy,just a means of getting at the Harpy , or rather as Varys told us the good masters of Yunkai, Ataspor and Valyria – moving the plot back towards that of the books.

    Volantis. Valeria is a ruin.

  552. LatrineDiggerBrian:
    Does anyone see The Waif as a baddie? Yeah she’s been miserable to Arya, but it’s all been within the context of trying to train her. It’s really tough love. I can’t see why she would be on Arya’s list.

    Yeah, initially I thought she was just being tough to teach Arya, but a good teacher would not look sad when the student beats her. Waif’s look after Arya defended herself was of pure disappointment. It was like she was competing with Arya or something. They should have made her expressionless, IMO.

  553. Anyone else see Cersei’s scene with Jamie and Qyburn as perhaps being the start of a descent into madness?

  554. Darkrobin:
    crimethink,

    Kevan controls the army for now.Whether that remains the case remains to be seen but I’d guess not. Also, little birds work cheaply.I wonder if Varys might be able to retake control in case he leaves Meereen and returns to Westeros at any point this season and what thay might do to Qyburn’s candied plum cart

    See…I immediately thought of the last thing that Varys had his “little birds” help him do before fleeing Kings Landing in the books (he didn’t leave with Tyrion in the books) and that setting Qyburn up to use those children to do “it” instead keeps Varys the more sympathetic character he has become in the show. But, no doubt, those little birds will be doing that same evil deed…

    (I’d state it but I don’t know how to do hide spoilers; help me out folks?)

  555. Pj,

    * I’m sorry but the Khalessi sorority is exactly what Dany needs. She became a power junkie, entitled queen just because of her last name. Sorry. She needs a good dose of humble pie or else she is the same as Viserys.

    ^ This.

  556. Watched it twice on Sky Atlantic. A pretty mediocre episode I thought. The ToJ confrontation was good, but a pity Bran’s visit was cut short by the three eyed raven to follow Ned into the tower.

    Arya’s scenes were good as were those with Varys. The Meereen and Vaes Dothrak stuff not so interesting. Same with Tommen and the High Sparrow, Jaime and Cersi and the other stuff in Kings Landing.

    The scenes in Winterfell were pretty predictable with Small-Jon Umber handing over Rickon and Osha to Ramsey. Shame about Shaggydog, but as often happens in GoT – Shit Happens 😉

    Good to see Jon dealing out justice with those who stabbed him, Ollie especially the little shite !!

  557. Wimsey: It seems that both Mel and Davos have found their Stannis substitute.

    Except I feel like Davos is playing a more fatherly role with Jon. Which is pretty cool. I’m so psyched to see what Jon does next. Or what Davos leads him to do. Are we sure he will have left castle black before Sansa gets there? No pink letter? Or does he need to pack a bag before he goes. He hasn’t given any sense of where he is headed yet. It makes sense that he would want to fight the WW. Maybe rally support for that. But he could be thinking of taking Winterfell. I just want to see what his first inclination is.

  558. Jack Bauer 24:
    I do think Sansa will see Jon next episode. We’ll also catch up with LF finally (and Robyn!) and we should also get some Drogon action! Big budget scene I think. Can’t wait to see how big Drogon is!

    Exactly.. another reason they have to have some shows that are just not all out action or CGI. Im in the corner that this show holds it’s own weight with all the others as far as greatness. I think once folks get the whole season in they will lighten up on the harsh criticism of any one particular episode. Im just sitting back with my Pinot Noir and relishing the moment!! This is really history here in the making of prob one of the greatest shows in our lifetime. Again.. IMHO…

  559. Darkrobin,

    Me too. I actually said the words “The Mad Queen”.

    Especially if she thinks The Faith will actually agree to trial by combat instead of their “seven septons”.

    I also didn’t expect Pycell to make it out of the Small Council chamber alive.

  560. From reading the commentary I’d say many think that Qyburn will fill Varys’s role in regard to that mission …. but perhaps for a different reason (than Varys’ reason)

  561. Al Swearengen,

    Yeah Aryas scenes cut every half second to make it look good. Don’t get me wrong I love the progression fantastic montage! The actual ToJ barely cuts to show the fighting. It was amazing, Dayne with two swords was fantastic, rather see that then using Dawn just to see Dawn.

  562. LatrineDiggerBrian: When I’m talking about contemporary, I’m talking about phrases people use today (in our time) that never would’ve been used back then. Like for instance, Tyrion would never say “it’s lit”. Do you agree with that, or you think would be a valid line of dialogue?

    There is nothing terribly contemporary about “punch me in the face,” except the frequency with which it is currently used. That line does not require context to understand. “Punch me in the face” means the same thing today that it meant 400 years ago. And in this show, “back then” is irrelevant. “It’s lit” would indeed be appropriate in response to those boats on fire last week, or any fire, even metaphorical fires. I am personally so culturally inept that I don’t know what else that is supposed to mean, but I comprehend that to punch someone in the face is to…punch someone in the face.

  563. Daniellica: He can bring his sword to my morning any damn time.

    LMAO.. yes.. he is drew my eyes away from JS which is really a major feat.. since JS is my ultimate eye candy option! But like another poster said (sorry for not giving due credit) – Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn! And Dee say’s “He’s HOT!!” Yes to all that and more!

  564. Nobody else notice the new score/theme for Jon at the end which was definitely a variation on the dany/dragon/targ theme….?? //////

  565. DireWolfHeart:
    Dee,

    So what if the FM

    I just re watched and disagree that she reacted at his name. They were splicing the fight scene w the talking scene. She reacted at Arya stirring on the floor. And in the talking scene she was doubting that it was the end of the list.

  566. Darkrobin:
    Anyone else see Cersei’s scene with Jamie and Qyburn as perhaps being the start of a descent into madness?

    The episode prior shows her pulling out a thread on her sleeve … basically a metaphor for unraveling. Yes she is going to start going stark raving bonkers…

  567. Demon Monkey: Except I feel like Davos is playing a more fatherly role with Jon. Which is pretty cool. I’m so psyched to see what Jon does next. Or what Davos leads him to do. Are we sure he will have left castle black before Sansa gets there? No pink letter? Or does he need to pack a bag before he goes. He hasn’t given any sense of where he is headed yet. It makes sense that he would want to fight the WW. Maybe rally support for that. But he could be thinking of taking Winterfell. I just want to see what his first inclination is.

    I think as he’s leaving Sansa and company will be arriving and they’ll meet.

  568. Daniellica,

    Unless Tyrion says get hype I’m buying it. This is silly. Punch in the face is not something contemporary. And it’s not a contemporary notion. And this isn’t medieval England. Or Europe. Silly.

  569. aabe: LatrineDigger

    That’s a great point actually, I forgot about that. I guess there is some animosity from The Waif, even much like the supposedly fake story she described of her new step mother wanting to produce a new heir. Probably is some jealousy there, just don’t know how far The Waif will take it.

  570. Pj

    CatspawAssassin,

    The very comparison to viserys is why I think show as treated dany unfairly because she is nowhere near as entitled or like viserys in the books…
    The last name you speak of is what makes her afraid and think them as monsters ..

  571. Ice Spider,

    Agreed. It’s always hard to judge them when they just come one at a time and we have a whole week to process and rehash (maybe overhash) before we get another taste. Only when the season is over do I really feel like I can analyze and really pick things apart. As for now, I’m enjoying the hell out of them as they come.

  572. Darkrobin,

    I guess I’m the only one who thinks those “little birds” are still working for Varys? And the scene from the books will still happen, but with

    Qyburn as one of the victims?
  573. Stargaryen,

    I thought the cuts in Arya’s “Daredevil” training were meant to help further imply a lot of repetition (though it certain could simply be an inability to string together a long cut of fight choreography). I also think we’re meant to think the Waif visited her in the street more than twice – not that the Man with No Name showed up on Day Two. Effective? Clearly not.

    Just rewatched the ToJ fight on HBOWest and I really enjoyed it again!

  574. Daniellica,

    But you hit it on the nose. Yes it would’ve made sense back then, but it’s the frequency with which it’s used now compared to it most likely not being used then that makes it contemporary sounding. It just seemed out of place when Tyrion said it. To each their own though.

    And no I’m not talking about Tyrion using “it’s lit” in the context of burning ships or something literally on fire 🙂

  575. Ice Spider,

    She has exhibited a proclivity for making statements about burning cities … the last royal who loved burning … not that you have to be mad to threaten to burn cities … but the actual burning …

    On Dorne:
    I will burn their cities to the ground if they touch her.
    To Tommen:
    I would do anything for you… anything to keep you from harm. I would burn cities to the ground.

  576. Darkrobin,

    I thought of Lyn Corbray too. Probably it is a good sign that Lyn is double agent too? And in TWOW sample chapter, Sansa wonders something like ‘Is Lyn Corbray Petyr’s man pretending to be Petyr’s enemy, or is he Petyr’s enemy pretending to be Petyr’s friend pretending to be Petyr’s enemy?’

  577. apparently having low expectations can make a decent episode to a good one. I really had fun with this one. No complaints, except maybe some sloppy fight takes. Also, Im in the train of fake-shaggydog. Rickon never react. He wasnt sad or anything. Could be bad acting but still… intriguing.

  578. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    No, you are not the only one … I wonder as well … and even if not now, assuming Varys returns to Westeros, will they go back to him … as I recall from the books, he imported a number of them from Pentos or some of the other Free Cities (based on his conversation with Illyrio) … so they might have a stronger connection with him. In the books everyone thought Qyburn had taken them over but … (not to say that it would be the same as Varys did not leave KL for Essos as he did in the show)

  579. Rickon/Smalljon

    Rickon is a high value hostage/ward. For Smalljon, why not just kneel and keep him? Ramsay doesn’t know you have Rickon. I think this is a trap but only based on Northern Conspiracy in asoiaf. It would really have helped to get some kind of info on Rickon’s time at Last Heart (or Skagos for that matter). At this point the writers can play it any way they want because we have no reference or background in either canon for Rickon’s time as hostage/ward. We do know that Rickon was impulsive and fiery. He appeared calm and perhapsed coached. And Osha looked confident. And Greatjon died? Off screen? Of natural causes? Am I really supposed to by that without second thought?

    Random thoughts. Where was Jon’s bug out bag (joke)? Did he leave Ghost (joke)? Why didn’t Tyrion pull out a cyvasse board (joke but why not)? What potion did Arya make (no but really)? Also, The Waif is not struck by the Walder Frey comment. It just appears that way because of the parallel editing. She is struck by Arya getting back up (again).

  580. Thronetender,

    I’m not saying Olly deserved to die. I recently heard that young ppl don’t have fully developed something or others (or is it a rise in gray matter for adolescents?) the point being they make bad decisions and can change. But, animals are innocent whereas ppl have more control. And WTF did Shaggy Dog do to deserve death? Nothing but be a loyal wolf. But the funny thing is that even horrible things like this make for good drama. I didn’t expect him dead, which in retrospect was kind of stupid.

    The more interesting thing to me is that it hints that Jon has changed. Plenty of ppl were saying Jon would spare Olly. That maybe he would forgive them all. But he is not who he was before. So far it seems more like being betrayed has changed him. But I’m hoping there is more to it. And from interviews and GRRM talk on resurrection I expect to be right on this one.

  581. As for the thread-of-hope theory regarding Rickon and Osha and whatnots, at first I thought that might be the case because of Smalljon’s demeanor/lack of oaths/explanation–your dad was a cunt, mine was a cunt, yours died, mine died, etc–would be one way to endear himself to Ramsay Bates. IF this is a ploy, it could leave Greatjon behind with the troops when they’re needed to fuck Ramsay up his pleading, pleading arsehole.

    But this stuff is so much easier to follow in books, all the backdoor machinations and plots within plots, and then I figured it unlikely the Umbers have a backstock of direwolves to behead, and Ramsay being so intimate with his dogs *ahem* should damn well know the difference between a wolf’s head and a direwolf’s head, and…AH FUCK IT I KNOW NOTHING.

  582. LatrineDiggerBrian: And no I’m not talking about Tyrion using “it’s lit” in the context of burning ships or something literally on fire

    You’re not going to tell me what it means?!
    Next time you don’t tell me what it means, I will punch you in the face.

  583. Louis,

    Everyone? I guess we read what we want to read in people’s comments. I don’t see everyone only caring about Jon and the north. This late into the series, sure we all have favorites (mine are Theon, Jon, and Sansa,) but I care about what’s happening to the rest of them as well.

  584. Daniellica,

    I didn’t initially think “conspiracy” but these comments have me hopeful. (And I’d love it if we didn’t have a second direwolf beheading.)

    It would be fitting (Ramsey believed the Stark boys dead because Theon pulled a switcheroo… Umber pulls a switcheroo) if it was just a big dog’s head. But you would think Ramsey of all people would catch that. Kudos on the “intimate with his dogs” comment though!

    I DID initially think: ‘well, if there’s one established female character who Ramsey could think he has broken but could kill him unexpectedly, it’s Osha’

    So there’s that…

  585. Tycho Nestoris,

    I like your thinking, though I doubt it’s a plot. Why doesn’t Smallhon Umber kneel? Maybe because he doesn’t want to bow to either Boltons or Starks. Because why else give Rickon over? The only persons he could be used to manipulate are Jon and Sansa. If He thinks Ramsay wants him or will use him to keep Jon from attacking WF, maybe it makes sense. Or if he wants to exchange him for Sansa, which I don’t know how he feels about that. It was a marriage thrust upon him, while it might be useful. But the other possibility is exactly what Umber says. He wants an alliance w an enemy and doesn’t want to be beholden to him by an oath. He has to either not care if Ramsay kills Rickon, expect that he will use Rickon as I suggested above, or it is part of a larger conspiracy and he feels confident he can keep Rickon safe. But the last one I’m unsure of because they killed Shaggy Dog. It’s really tough to figure this out but I enjoy trying!

  586. Pj: I will forever vouch for Maisie Williams. That kid can steal a scene with a lift of her eyebrow.

    She’s the best actor on the show. Every scene she’s in, regardless of the scene or the writing, she is entirely present and you feel like she’s experiencing it for the first time. I’m loving her stuff this year (probably more than last year), and she’s barely done anything yet (I’m also digging the Waif a lot more this year). I think Maisie might have been trolling people when she said she wasn’t in this season much and her stuff was going to disappoint people.

  587. Jack Bauer 24,

    I was 75 ℅ sure last week but now iam positive that drogon won’t be appearing until episode 5 or 6 ..

    That shot you are speaking of will be shown in previews if drogon is going to appear in the episode

    Demon Monkey,

    To fight the greatest evil queen there ever was ,there is and will be obviously

  588. It was good to see Thorne, Olly et al pay the price of their treason. It was only right that they end up choking and jerking on the end of a felon’s rope, rather than receiving the quicker death of being beheaded.
    Valerian steel like Longclaw should not be tainted with base unworthy blood from the likes of those. No matter how often Jon wiped the blade, it would never be clean of such a foul stain

  589. Louis,

    I have to agree; the reaction of his comeback really was what I was expecting: Confused with a new, more serious look on life.

  590. All of you complaining/confused about the Tyrion, Missandei and Grey Worm scene should watch the clip “Good Intentions” released by the HBO Game of Thrones channel on Youtube. I personally enjoyed it, Tyrion trying to break the ice with people who dont usually talk and just follow orders.

    Overall, another good episode besides certain pieces of dialogue that seemed off and minor clunkiness in some scenes. I do like how we slowed things down a bit. Kit was superb in his scenes. I wish ToJ was longer.

  591. Sorry. I’m sticking to my guns. She boasts about being a Khalessi but she refuses to follow one of their most ancient rules? She was happy with the dothraki, she learned their customs and felt at peace dare I say in her second home after the red door. She will come out stronger out of this cuz we all know she will BUT humility; we all need it.

  592. dragonbringer:
    Jack Bauer 24,

    I was 75 ℅ sure last week but now iam positive that drogon won’t be appearing until episode 5 or 6 ..

    That shot you are speaking of will be shown in previews if drogon is going to appear in the episode

    Demon Monkey,

    To fight the greatest evil queen there ever was ,there is and will be obviously

    Drogon is in Episode 4. We know that

    this episode will be Dany’s big one. Drogon burns the temple.
  593. Ser Southpaw,

    Lol, not sure who exactly that was (Pycelle, or Mace) but my immediate thought was that was a nice nod to Medieval Funtime Land

  594. Icekhione,

    I think Davos was smart enough to know that Jon didn’t need a bunch of fanaticism up in his grill, at that moment. Davos is streets to the core

  595. Daniellica,

    I definitely took the Umber scene at face value first time through.
    Now I’m hoping there’s IMMENSE relevance to his refusal to kneel.
    But who’s the mastermind? Smalljohn? Rickon? Osha?

    Shaggy?

    Can’t really be sending the “last Stark heir” (for all anyone knows) on some insane mission to unite the North, could they?

  596. Che,

    I think the Unbers have good reason for wanting to ally w Boltons. It’s not about abandoning Starks. I’ll admit I’m iffy on the whole thing. Ramsay said am how loyal the Umbers were. (Or did Karstark say that?) and Small Jon sure was sassy. I just can’t see why he would give him real Rickon (that is Rickon) and kill Shaggydog. I don’t think you can mistake a wolf’s head for a direwolf’s head. I mean, desperate times call for desperate measures, but I’m leaning towards Umber being sincere.

  597. The commercial I heard in my head this episode was:

    HARRRRR!!! COME STAY AT THE DAYS INN. WITH JON SNOW’S TINY PECKER.

    I can’t help it. Why, Tormund, why?
    On the bright side, it would sell a lot of Windham rewards cards. Or whatever.

  598. Icekhione:
    Can they stop bullying Mel? She just rezzed the dude and Davos was like GTFO

    Well, does he really want her getting her zealot hooks in Jon like she did with Stanis?

  599. Just wanted to chime in and say that I loved the episode. I’ve now seen it twice.

    Everything at the Wall was gold. I loved Davos’s pep talk, and how Edd and Tormund were able to break up Jon’s solemn procession through the awestruck wildlings and Night’s Watch members and get Jon to crack a smile. I appreciated that Alliser Thorne got to keep his dignity in his final moments – he was a great character. And Jon’s final line of the episode is going to be iconic. Perfect note to end on.

    I thought Dean S. Jagger was fantastic as Smalljon Umber. Of course, the character goes on the shit list for handing over Rickon and Osha, and for killing Shaggydog (that moment when he dropped the direwolf’s head on the table was rough). But he had a strong charisma and swagger to him – brash, irreverent, powerful. Everything a Northern Lord should be. I wish this guy was fighting for the Starks, but he’s going to be a memorable adversary (I’ve seen some speculation that he’s planning to betray Ramsay, but I don’t buy it. If any Northern house double-crosses the Boltons, it will be the Manderlys). I’m already hoping that the casting call claiming that the Smalljon is only going to appear in two episodes is inaccurate. I want to see more of this guy!

    (Also, it’s worth noting that he mentioned that his father had died, confirming that Greatjon Umber is no longer with us.)

    And I thought the Tower of Joy sequence was excellent. Inevitably, some people are going to complain about the changes or lament that it didn’t meet their sky-high expectations. I’m not really keen on engaging with them tonight. Chalk me up as very pleased with what I saw. That moment where Bran called out to his father and Ned heard his voice on the wind had me spellbound. I don’t mind that we didn’t get to go inside the Tower this week. It’s coming.

  600. Demon Monkey: I think the Unbers have good reason for wanting to ally w Boltons. It’s not about abandoning Starks. I’ll admit I’m iffy on the whole thing. Ramsay said am how loyal the Umbers were. (Or did Karstark say that?) and Small Jon sure was sassy. I just can’t see why he would give him real Rickon (that is Rickon) and kill Shaggydog. I don’t think you can mistake a wolf’s head for a direwolf’s head. I mean, desperate times call for desperate measures, but I’m leaning towards Umber being sincere.

    Everytime I weigh the pros/cons I get more confused than ever. The Umbers had a trump card (or drumpf card)–the heir to Winterfell. Why hand that to Ramsay? Even if he gets Sansa back (grrrr), Rickon is heir before her, being a dude. Even a little dude. So…WTF? Here you go, here’s the real heir to Winterfell to murder. This totally betters my position, hoping a psychopathic little twat will reward me for totally putting my house at a disadvantage for NO FUCKING REASON. OK, troops, whatever. Troops for what? For the wildlings? Come the fuck on. As he said, they’ve been fighting wildlings as long as anyone remembers. Wildlings don’t scale castles and take over keeps. If anything, they’d get all the other houses on their side with the actual heir of Winterfell, not the marrying of a ladyStark to a Bolton who was recently a Snow who’s a total dickbucket. Who would the houses be likely to follow in that case?

    Again, I know fuckall, but this is frustrating. I can’t figure out why they’d do it if there is a conspiracy or why they’d do it if there isn’t. Shouldn’t Ramsay wonder the same thing? Or will he trip over his bucket of dicks at the delight of having Rickon? Bah!

  601. The Molehill that Rides:
    Daniellica,

    I definitely took the Umber scene at face value first time through.
    Now I’m hoping there’s IMMENSE relevance to his refusal to kneel.
    But who’s the mastermind? Smalljohn? Rickon? Osha?

    Shaggy?

    Can’t really be sending the “last Stark heir” (for all anyone knows) on some insane mission to unite the North, could they?

    I did the same thing, and then the more I thought about it, the refusing to kneel and swear etc, and the size of the wolf’s head…. The mentioning of the Manderly’s last episode….it really gives me hope that this is part of the northern conspiracy come true. But then I think of the flayed bodies burning on the crosses scene that’s coming. Ugh. I really hope it’s the conspiracy! I don’t think I can take another Stark death.

  602. Sister Kisser,

    I’m pretty sure Jon will not take any red god shit from Mel which will piss her off/confuse her. Or maybe even better he can do they The red god doesn’t like roasted people. I’m the saviour so I should know.

  603. The Bastard,

    Most people are not “looking” for things to complain about but let’s be honest here, if some people are disappointed with how certain aspects play out then they should be allowed to share their opinion here without fear of reprimand. They aren’t doing it to annoy you or anyone else, they want to share their thoughts with the community of fans. and I’m not understanding the “calling out” of anyone who doesn’t tow the line of “everything’s wonderful and perfect.” Nothing is perfect. And if you enjoy every single thing about the show that’s great, other people’s opinions shouldn’t ruin anything for you. Discussion would be pretty boring if everyone agreed all the time.

  604. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I am with you. The first we see of the birds is Qyburn trying to “buy them” and the next scene, I believe, was Varys talking about his little birds. The kids will turn on him. I still think

    Kevan and Pycelle are goners, though maybe now the frankenmountain will take out the old man, and the birds may take out Qyburn
  605. Jack Bauer 24,

    That doesn’t mean drogon as to appear ..
    That event you can speak of is going to be by dany’s own hands …the hand shot was shown in all of the trailers and drogon is not needed for that ..

    This is a time I think they must remind that dany is what important here not drogon .. When they had drogon appear in daznak pit saving her they changed that from books and if they keep doing this …it will become predictable. .and people will lose interest if not already ..

    Pj,

    She is still khaleesi because she has a dothraki khalasar following her however small they maybe in numbers ..
    Humility you speak of is good but the only problem is she never lost that and shown that to whoever deserved .

  606. Daniellica,

    I think it would help if we were clear on geography and history. Can we get one of the mods here to write a post on this?

    For instance, could the Umbers not call on the Manderlys or Glovers for help taking care of the wildlings? Do they absolutely need the Boltons for some reason, like they are closer? It is hard to see why they sheltered him all this time and now they are like: well fuck it. There is an army of wildlings south of the wall (Supposedly not attacking them because they’re busy going back to the wall) so let’s hand over the Stark heir to get some help w the wildlings. It’s hard to understand.

  607. Daniellica,

    That comment just seemed out of place. Why they go and taint the important scene with a cock joke lol? Didn’t bother me TOO much but it did give the sense of emasculates Jon in the viewers eye. Just one girl’s opinion.

  608. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Unpopular opinion, I don’t care about Rickon as a character. Mind you, I don’t want to see him tortured or killed, but I’ve always found him to be a useless character who I had zero connection to. I was never fond about him hiding out while all of the StarksI cared about died or became a tree, only for him to come back in the end and become Lord Of Winterfell. I’d rather he stayed away and lived happily ever after with the unicorns on Skaagos.

    Wait, what could he have done to earn your “fondness”? Go with Robb and fight the war with him? Fight Theon when he invaded WF? I mean, he was just a boy! He lost his parents, big brother, and home very early in life. For that, it actually makes his story interesting. How would his early, terrible experience shape him as a young man? He never had a happy childhood like his other siblings (at least the others enjoyed their childhood a little bit). Of course he was happy before his father and sisters went w/ King Robert but people often have vague memories before age 5. He was 6 I think when shit started to go down with his family. His childhood memories will be filled with the horrors that happened to his family more than sweet recollections.

  609. KG:
    dvc,

    She’s not a fanatic; she’s a high priestess. It’s her calling in life to believe.

    That’s a matter of perspective.

  610. My fellow watchers thought this episode was just okay.. yet a LOT of post episode discussion about what they saw and future ramifications. Even a vanilla episode is epic!

  611. dragonbringer:
    Jack Bauer 24,

    That doesn’t mean drogon as to appear ..
    That event you can speak of is going to be by dany’s own hands …the hand shot was shown in all of the trailers and drogon is not needed for that ..

    This is a time I think they must remind that dany is what important here not drogon .. When they had drogon appear in daznak pit saving her they changed that from books and if they keep doing this …it will become predictable. .and people will lose interest if not already ..

    Pj,

    She is still khaleesi because she has a dothraki khalasar following her however small they maybe in numbers ..
    Humility you speak of is good but the only problem is she never lost that and shown that to whoever deserved .

    Drogon burns the temple in this coming episode I believe though. The shot of Dany’s hand is in this episode too most likely .
  612. Rhaenys Stark,

    100% agree. I said last week the story would fall into a more balanced pace after the first 2 “table setters”. This is where GoT excels. Always has. Best episode of the season in my opinion.

  613. ygritte:
    Daniellica,

    That comment just seemed out of place. Why they go and taint the important scene with a cock joke lol? Didn’t bother me TOO much but it did give the sense of emasculates Jon in the viewers eye. Just one girl’s opinion.

    There’s a series of ads in the US that Tormund is in, or rather the actor playing Tormund, whose name I am too lazy to look up right now, which is totally shameful because if I were a man I’d have such a boner for him, but as it is I think he’s totally hot, and he’s one of my favorite characters, and the point was this series of ads for like the cheapest hotels/motels in the US and he’s the pitch person, and all I see is this glorious ginger peddling gift cards to Days Inn and Super 8 while sitting in a pool and it makes me weep, and now I can’t help but hear him in his commercials as the character of Tormund in every episode, and I would cry for real if this was just slightly less affected outrage, but I do hear it in my head when I see him on the show and it’s distracting.

    Can I win the run-on pointless award of the evening? Plz?
    (I love cock jokes, btw.)

  614. No one else thought the whole hang-five-guys-at-once contraption came out of nowhere? Kinda of a cheap way to allow him to be the one who swings the sword without hacking off five guys heads one after another… Think they built it just for this occasion?

  615. Mag,

    I cant´t say it enough times! I simply adored TOJ scene!!! Perfection to me! Ps…Jon´s goodbye was heavenly,as well 🙂 🙂 🙂

  616. Demon Monkey,

    Here’s my take. Last Hearth (the Umbers) is the furthest north of the major North houses. There are mountain clans (the Flints, etc.) to the west. The Dreadfort is southeast of Last Hearth and Winterfell is southwest. White Harbor (the Manderlys) is to the south near Moat Cailin. Deepwood Motte is well to the west of Winterfell and you have to go through the Wolfswood to get there It was going to take two weeks or more for Stannis’ army to march from DM to WF in the books). So the Boltons are the closest. It would take additional time (how much depends on the distances between the locations, which on the show are much closer than there are in the books, for example WF is three weeks or more from CB in the books but only a day or two or three away on the show).

  617. Great episode all around!
    My favorites were Tyrion/Missandei/Greyworm scene and the ToJ fight.

  618. Am I the only one who thinks it COULD be Shaggydog but they’re still punking Ramsey? The wolf could’ve died any number of ways. His mother died fighting a stag, he could’ve developed an infected abscess or broken a limb and developed septicemia and died, etc. etc. While I don’t want it to be him, him being dead and Rickon making it out alive aren’t mutually exclusive.

  619. KG,

    I am all for Mel the high priestess walking on clouds- you are right, this is her calling for hundreds? of years now. (Though I thought her last couple of episodes were amazingly dynamic for her- same feeling I got reading her perspective). I have always loved her character. My comment above about Davos shielding Jon from her in that moment, had to do with Davos recognizing that a measured, and less fanatic, approach in dealing with the “newly reborn”. It makes perfect sense for her to go there- not many more profound questions than this- but maybe he needed a little time to collect himself and get his bearings.

  620. Wimsey: No, the Umbers are reacting to treason.Wildlings have hurt them terribly in the past.This Young Umber loves to kill Wildlings.And now a Stark scion is leading a huge Wildling army into Westeros: an army that, no doubt, will rape and reave the Hearth before heading south.(I love the Grimmsian distortion of what actually happened; I love even more that it now is sort of true.)

    I wouldn’t call it treason, but your general sentiment is correct – the show-Umbers behavior is reasonable in the TV context. While the book situation in the north is far more complicated, I expect Jon’s decision to let the wildlings through will be part of the pro-Bolton motivation in the books, so to the extent this is a “change” from the books it appears to fall well within the bounds of the normal adaptation process.

  621. Flayed Potatoes: I know right?

    Yeah, I was also like… Eh, where are you going, Jon? You have no home. Didn’t you hear the Boltons now have WF? Anyway, I’d be totally pissed if Sansa arrives in WF when Jon has already left. Please, D&D. No more missed reunions. Don’t push back a Stark reunion any longer.

  622. Sam,

    I said I’m not fond of the common assumption that Rickon would come back and be Lord of Winterfell in the end when he isn’t much of a character in the books. I don’t have the same kind of connection to him that I have with the other Stark children. One, because he was never a POV character. Two, because he is only 4 or 5 in the books and is incapable of really having much of a personality. I don’t want him to die. I just wish that he never existed.

  623. Connor,
    Ned says at one time, something along the lines of, “I’d be dead, if not for Howland Reed.” So… seems pretty clear that Howland had intervened in one way or another… in the book, in their reality, and in the show.

  624. My few thoughts –
    I was underwhelmed with the TOJ scene mostly because of the lack of Dawn and the two- sword fighting ninja Arthur Dayne. I would have preferred a more intense traditional fight scene. What I loved was Bran’s voice being heard and Lyanna’s birthing screams. They’d better damn well show the scene inside the tower soon!
    Dany’s scenes are still meh for me. And if I have to hear her spout her titles one more time I may throw myself into a fighting pit.
    I think everything about the Wall was great. The writing in this episode was much better and things flowed nicely. Kit was great. You could see his lack of faith in the Watch now. You can see the determination in him as he strode through the gate to do what his heart has been telling him to do. His facial expression when trying to breathe were great. Some of his best acting so far.
    Arya…poor dear Arya. Her scenes actually tick me off more than anything. First endless sweeping then endless beatings. I know what they are trying to do but it just doesn’t seem like real intricate assassin training that the FM are known for. I would have liked to see more variety to learn more about them. But now it seems her watch has ended and there will be a SL shift thankfully.
    When I first watched the scene with SJ, Ramsay and tbe Umbers I was mortified. But then doubts started creeping into my heat. Umber wouldn’t kneel or swear or anything that ensured his allegiance. And the ‘direwolf’s’ head seems a bit small. This would be the perfect entrance for the conspiracy and so I’m hoping with everything I am that this is all part of the plan and we /won’t/ see Rickon and Osha on those Bolton crosses.
    Tommen spouting “I am tbe King” like a certain crazy sibling we know… The Sparrow very expertly guided him into his web. Great scene.
    Poor Nicolaj. Jaime needs more action. He’s basically been a filler with the exception of his great scene with the sparrow. I hope they get him doing something…anything, soon!
    Lady Ollena throwing her perfect shade! Pycelle panic farting and Cercei becoming more crazy and paranoid. Good stuff.
    Varys is perfect as always. I wish I had enjoyed the Grey Worm, Mis, and Tyrion scene more. I do love how Tyrion actually seemed pleased that cities were conspiring against Mereen…like “finally, something to do!”
    I think that’s about it. Love reading people’s thoughts 🙂

  625. Noooo

    Just as I feared, The gift was Rickon

    If Shaggydog is dead that likely means Rickons days are numbered too

    That said Lady died but Sansa lives (though arguably she replaced Direwolves with Hounds but anyway)

    Generally speaking a fantastic episode once again, Loved the Tower of Joy

  626. I have two thoughts:

    -NOT SHAGGYDOG. NO NO NO NO NO. (Please tell me that head looked a little small for a direwolf…)

    -Hahahaha burn in hell Olly.

  627. THANK GOD HE HAS A SMALL PECKER… HE WOULD BE TOO PERFECT OTHERWISE

  628. This was still the best hour of television on tonight. It was definitely a breather episode though, but I’m okay with that.

    ToJ: Awesome, I don’t care what the haters say. Dual wielding guy was amazing! Interesting to see Howland Reed’s part in all of it, and to see past the myth of the story into what really happened.

    The Tyrion Missandei Grey Worm scene was pretty awkward, but I think it was supposed to be.

    Sam and Gilly. I love it and I don’t care who knows it. When she called Sam the baby’s father? Feels. I’m super looking forward to Horn Hill.

    Arya, girl I’m glad you’re figuring it out now because I needed to stop seeing you constantly hit in the face. Glad to see those baby browns! Please find the theater troupe soon!

    The Lannister twins are personas non grata at the small council meetings, that much is clear. Cersei really doesn’t have a card left to play, except Ser Gregor and Tommen if he could man up already (that’s a joke, he’s a kid with impossible responsibility, I feel bad for him). I totally heard the fart, but I’ll be honest, I thought it was my gassy dog. I’ll have to rewatch, LOL.

    I enjoyed Tommen stepping to the High Sparrow, and I enjoyed the High Sparrow’s mental smackdown on Tommen. The man knows how to manipulate.

    My initial freakout over Shaggydog/Rickon/Osha has calmed a bit, I smell a plot guys. I just do. Things don’t add up. That could be poor Shaggy, but they could also be punching Ramsay. It’s the farm boys at Winterfell all over again, but I hope Shaggy wasn’t killed by a person :/

    Qyburn’s little birds were sufficiently creepy (but humanized with the treat thing of course that’s how Varys rewarded them), can’t wait to see what they get up to.

    Dany looks like she’s now part of the most unfun bridge group ever. Will they try to kill her for not coming back earlier?I cannot wait until someone/dragon rescues her.

    Jon. JON. Riveting stuff. That’s pretty much exactly how I, a “secular humanist” imagine what it’s like to die, and what it might be like to come back from death. I appreciate Davos politely asking Mel to GTFO when she started on the Prince that was Promised business, like LET HIM WAKE UP, damn. Seeing all the willings and good NW’s faces was awesome. I was so happy Tormund lightened the mood with a dick joke. I didn’t tear up until Edd and Jon embraced. I’m glad they didn’t give Olly any last words. Would’ve cheapened it.

    Jon giving his LC cloak to Edd, saying “My watch is ended.” BOOM MIC DROP

    I just can’t wait until we see what’s in the tower.

  629. sellsword_23,

    Think you’ll find it’s “Now it ends”. There is no construct “Now it’s ends”

    Young people of today know nothing.

  630. Ramsay looked so damn happy when he got his gift. Poor, poor gift. It hurts just to watch it.

  631. They showed a flayed body outside Winterfell twice. Who was that? It wasn’t the Maester, was it? Or just some poor, unlucky servant? Some people make sure to always have fresh flowers at their entry to greet guests. Ramsay always has a freshly flayed body. At least Shaggy’s teeth were bloody, meaning he took a chunk or two of traitor Umber soldier with him before they got him.

    Can someone fill me in on what’s happening to Dany? Are they going to put her through some kind of trial of humility or something because she dared “to go out into the world” after Drogo died? Who or what will be the deciding factor of her fate? Well, I know Drogon is going to fly in, but what do the Dosh Kaleen think is going to happen?

    Sam and Gilly! and Little Sam actually looked toddler size. Looks like Gilly has matured both in her language and behavior. She’s slowly turning into a lady, who can read. Lol. I loved how she was happy as can be, weathering the storm, and poor Sam was so sick. Aw, his mother and sister will stand up to Randyll for the joy of having a baby in the house. Looking forward to those scenes. And to Sam’s scenes at the Citadel … there will be scenes at the Citadel, won’t there? I can’t remember if there was filming at something that was identified as being at the Citadel. Although most of those scenes were probably filmed indoors.

    I was one of those who thought that Jon would spare the treacherous bunch, but he’s really angry at having been murdered. “I thought I was doing the right thing and I got murdered.” Good. He’s leaving an not looking back.

    When Qyburn said “candied plums from Dorne,” I thought for a minute he was going to poison them all. I’m thinking that the High Sparrow’s shaming of Cersei is not going to have the effect he expected of the “small” people no longer fearing her. She’s seeking out everyone who dares make a comment about it, she’s going to terrify them all, they will fear her more. I’m still waiting to see what she does to Septa Unella.

    Not only is Cersei not permanently humbled, she has moved to actually thinking out loud of herself as the Queen. Olenna put her in her place, but I don’t think that’s going to hold for very long. Someone upthread predicted the start of Cersei going mad – I might tend to agree – as the shock of what happened wears off more and more, she’s going to get angrier and angrier, and an angry, drunken Cersei is not a pretty sight.

    Mace came back without fanfare. Cant wait for the scene of him and Jaime riding up the stairs of the Sept. Loved the scene of the Mountain’s quick reaction to Jaime’s suggestion that he wasn’t smart to begin with. Which means that he heard and understood Pycelle saying that “the beast” should be killed. Don’t think Pycelle is going to be around much longer.

    This was a quieter episode than the first two, but no less satisfying. Things are moving right along.

  632. SciFiFantasyGirl,

    There are compelling ideas on either side of this one. The Umber’s have a valid reason for seeking help- but are the Bolton’s really the only option? Why put all your faith in the man you so openly distrust- you insult him, and his father, and it’s clear that you have him outwit- Perhaps Roose’s death provides the right window to infiltrate Winterfell and try reinstate a Stark- as crazy as the mission would be. With no wedding celebration to attend, any possible conspiracy will need a way in. And nobody asked about Sansa? Do the northern lords know she’s gone? I’m guessing no…

    Also. If it is a conspiracy- how rad would it be if Shaggydog comes shredding into battle when the Umbers strike? And teaming up with the Boltons for a battle with the wildlings is, as far as they are concerned, maybe a win-win? Kill some wildlings, turn on that asshole Ramsay and get a Stark back in WF…. But wait- Rickon would obviously have to be in on this- soooooo, does Rickon choose to fight Jon? Is he still such an angry kid?

    So much to consider! Being unsullied is awesome. I am hoping it’s a conspiracy, but I am thinking it’s probably just the Smalljon being a big fucking dick.

  633. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I understand. We all root for different characters. I want him alive though because, well, he’s a Stark. If Bran dies because of his mission or forever becomes a tree (maybe not), Rickon is the only hope that the Stark line will continue. Of course, Sansa and Arya could still bear children but those children won’t carry the Stark name (if I’m not mistaken).

  634. SciFiFantasyGirl,

    Tbf, it seemed to me that the Valyrian sword he was inexpicably sharperneing (like Brienne with Oathkeeper lol) was Dawn, he put it into the earth right in front of the camera and it had a conspicuous hilt etc so I think there was Dawn

    I was rather more surprised Ned didn’t have Ice

    Underwhelmed with Brans “he stabbed him in the back” like it was dishonourable, he fought like Crannogman which is hit and run etc

    So excited for Howland Reed as much as anything though

    Plus the whole “he is better” from Bloodraven lol, can tell he was rooting for the Targ Kingsguard

    Quite a lot to take from it all

    Actually enjoyed the Arya training sequence and it was well directed etc, people are going on about the training and beatings but it is meant to match up with the with the stick strikes and lying, of course what I loved is that Arya managed to outmaneauvre the game with that brilliant “what name do you want me to speak” and turned the whole game on its head and then she ends up refining her ability

    Loved the fact she learns to smell the poison followed by a scene of “Roose Bolton was poisoned by our enemies”

    Umbers interesting, he really obviously has knifed Rickon out of (legtimate from their POV) contempt for Jon letting Wildlings through but there is contempt towards Karstark and Ramsay so there’s the prospect he could do a Walder Frey at the Trident and switch sides depending on who is winning

    I think I can see a trend, the 3 Houses mentioned, Karstark is right in Ramsays camp, Umber is half-in and half-out and I suspect Manderly is secretly out of it and in Jons camp (am sooooo hoping for that epic speech to Davos, Frey pie might be a bit too much to hope for though, hopefully not which really says something about what this show does to otherwise civilised people)

    Jon scene at the end was good, what Thorne said was legitimate, Jon has effectively allowed a raiding/pillaging army through which is what is great about it all in that it isn’t simplistic, once again looking forward to the Owen Teale curtain call

    And then Olly, no words but utter hatred which probably helped Jon to make his decision

  635. Starkist:
    It;s Osha we should b worried about…Ramsay cnt kill Rickon yet…but without Shaggydog to protect, Osha is basically Reek now.

    PS: I don’t normally moan about the show, but now Ive got to – theyre overdoing it with torturing fanfavourites at the hands of that idiot.

    I have friends who used to be avid watchers of the show but stopped following it by S4. (That’s why I visit this site every now and then because there’s no one to talk about the show with anymore!) 🙂 They would still watch occasionally if they catch it on TV. Their main complaint is that the “bad people” are just so damn lucky while the “good-hearted principled ones” get one misfortune after another. It can get tiring after a while for some people. So, when Osha’s face was revealed, I felt sad (and angry). I was like, oh there’s another kind-hearted woman who took care of 2 unfortunate boys and now she’ll be the female version of Reek. Ugh. I may be starting to get tired of it, too.

  636. Sam:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I understand. We all root for different characters. I want him alive though because, well, he’s a Stark. If Bran dies because of his mission or forever becomes a tree (maybe not), Rickon is the only hope that the Stark line will continue. Of course, Sansa and Arya could still bear children but those children won’t carry the Stark name (if I’m not mistaken).

    It’s a bit of a grey area like Lady Hornwood perhaps, they would certainly be Lady Stark but getting legitimate children may be tricky as they’d have to marry into other Houses

    I’ve always figured Bran would become a Tree and would never go south, so Rickon is heir effectively, though if he does come back he is obviously Robbs heir. Thing is in the books he can’t have children as he’s crippled, so I think Rickons children would be next in line (which is why I suspect Manderly had a girl Rickons age giving a great speech, Rickon is great marriage material for ambitious houses) but obviously if Rickons dead then Sansa and then Arya’s children are Brans heirs

    A fabulous grey area

  637. And the preview, Littlefinger seems to be encouraging Sweetrobin the marshall the Vale army. He gives lip service to being in charge to Cersei but effectively Lord Royce will be the General

    Fascinatingly the pieces are being put into place for the climactic battle for the North to come

    And of course Jons Watch has ended

  638. Pj,

    Why the hell should Dany be obligated, or feel obligated, to join the Dosh Khaleen? Dany was forced into the marriage to Drogo, against her will, and at a young age. She was bartered by Viserys for an army, she never had a say. Sure she ended up loving Drogo, and still considers herself a Khaleesi, but I don’t feel she shouldn’t be forced into what is basically imprisonment for the rest of her life. Especially for something she never chose.

  639. Sam: I have friends who used to be avid watchers of the show but stopped following it by S4. (That’s why I visit this site every now and then because there’s no one to talk about the show with anymore!) They would still watch occasionally if they catch it on TV. Their main complaint is that the “bad people” are just so damn lucky while the “good-hearted principled ones” get one misfortune after another. It can get tiring after a while for some people. So, when Osha’s face was revealed, I felt sad (and angry). I was like, oh there’s another kind-hearted woman who took care of 2 unfortunate boys and now she’ll be the female version of Reek. Ugh. I may be starting to get tired of it, too.

    Actually no, Ramsay said he prefers women, basically he’ll simply hunt Osha rather than torture her ala Theon/Reek

    Only thing about that is that Osha is a resourceful Wildling of course so she’ll escape the hunting Dogs and perhaps even kill them which makes sense as she’d then find and tell Jon and Sansa that Rickon is being held by Ramsay

    Rickon I’m less sure of though unfortunately, though while he can torture Theon Lord of the Iron Islands, Lord Stark you would think would be more precarious because it makes the other Lords feel they aren’t safe so they’d back Sansa and Jon

  640. Sister Kisser,

    Can you imagine everyone’s reactions if they showed Ghost and Shaggy killing Bolton men together?
    With Osha being a Wildling I think Rickon would be fine with Wildlings helping kill the people responsible for murdering his family.
    It would be fitting if Ramsay was actually killed on his Bolton cross.

    Of course this is all fun speculation and hope for a ruse…. It HAS to be! lol

  641. Icekhione:
    Can they stop bullying Mel? She just rezzed the dude and Davos was like GTFO

    Yeah it was odd, but the point was Jon has just been rezzed, doesen’t know what is going on and then having Prince that was Promised thrust in his face which isn’t the most tactful so he is probably getting rid of Mels clinginess

    Says something about the state of things, eg of Mel who in the past would have done the dismissing with Selyse etc and that she’s still in a delicate place and of course Davos as Hand and as a practical negotiator knows how to better broach the subject

  642. Jehphg:
    Simon,

    that’s just the thing i’m still trying to think of a way to fake it, a normal wolf wouldn’t do it because of the size so i’m lost, but i don’t really want to believe it is shaggy

    Me, too. Maybe it’s Grey Wind with black hair dye? Just kidding. What if a member of the wolf pack (led by Nymeria in the books) died and they found it? I know it’s a long shot. Just want to hold out hope that it’s fake Shaggy!

  643. Sister Kisser,

    Yeah it’s great, there’s the matter of “what is Umber up to”

    IMO he is hedging his bets in a sense and they’ve made a point he doesen’t entirely trust either side

    That said Shaggydog is dead and I don’t have much optimism for Rickon, the books and show isn’t about good vs bad, but rather struggle, so a step forward (Sansa escape and Jon rez) is tempered by a step back (Rickon capture) and often vice versa

  644. Ghosts Lunch,

    I thought it was Arthur that was uselessly sharpening his sword as well but the guy had long hair and Arthur had short. I did see the bland sword shoved into the ground and then he pulled out the two others. I’d have to rewatch but he didn’t use the one in the ground did he?
    Oh and clarification…the scene was choreographed well, I just really didn’t like the using of two swords from a man who was supposed to have such an amazing and important greatsword.
    There were some good parts of Arya’s scenes, don’t get me wrong but more variety would have been good. The constant beating should not have gone on for two episodes or so. Her time as Blind Beth should have been focused on her honing her listening skills, maybe hearing some important information outside a brothel or port in Braavos. There is so much more they could have done with her screen time.

  645. Ghosts Lunch: Actually no, Ramsay said he prefers women, basically he’ll simply hunt Osha rather than torture her ala Theon/Reek

    Only thing about that is that Osha is a resourceful Wildling of course so she’ll escape the hunting Dogs and perhaps even kill them which makes sense as she’d then find and tell Jon and Sansa that Rickon is being held by Ramsay

    Rickon I’m less sure of though unfortunately, though while he can torture Theon Lord of the Iron Islands, Lord Stark you would think would be more precarious because it makes the other Lords feel they aren’t safe so they’d back Sansa and Jon

    Your comment made me remember that Osha pulled one over Theon! Yeah, she’s a resourceful one. Ramsay though is not Theon. He may not be easily deceived.

    Actually, Ramsay would have all the motivation to extinguish the Stark line (and kill Rickon. And Jon for that matter.). As that Karstark guy said, the North won’t fully submit to the Boltons as long as there’s a potential Stark heir left (something like that). Sansa is a different case because she could give him an heir who would carry the Stark blood.

  646. Ghosts Lunch,

    Oh, this question is for you and everyone else. Did Howland Reed get slashed in the knees during the TOJ fight? An image of that crazy fan theory of Reed being the HS entered my mind when the Sparrow mentioned yet again about his knees. But then it could just be from kneeling so much. But it just seemed like a thing the show would mirror if the theory, crazy as it us, was true. Personally I don’t subscribe to it for many reasons but if Howland got slashed across the legs it would give me pause.

  647. Wimsey: Ah, but in a way: it’s on Jon. We knew that the Umbers hate Wildlings passionately. We probably should have started worrying about what they would do to Jon’s family after he let the Wildlings through. I think too many of us were blinded by the notion of “Everyone Loves Ned Stark.” But clearly the North has rejected Jon’s claims about White Walkers returning and is fixated on the danger that they know well: Wildlings.

    Wimsey: No, the Umbers are reacting to treason. Wildlings have hurt them terribly in the past. This Young Umber loves to kill Wildlings. And now a Stark scion is leading a huge Wildling army into Westeros: an army that, no doubt, will rape and reave the Hearth before heading south. (I love the Grimmsian distortion of what actually happened; I love even more that it now is sort of true.)

    The Umber motivation makes sense, but the guy is also being a big idiot here.

    Clearly Smalljon wasn’t to concerned about Wildlings when they were about to invade the North. They could have sent some help to the Night Watch if it was really such a big concern for him. The Nights Watch have been begging the realm for help continuously.

    Why would the Wildings raid Last Hearth? They have land now, land of their own. Smalljon could just as easily have gone to the Nights Watch and he could have found out what was going on. Having a boy Lord in your possession is an incredibly valuable asset. Just look at how Littlefinger uses sweet Robin. Giving such an asset to someone like Ramsay is really incredibly dumb.

    The Nights Watch has asked repeatedly for help and they have been ignored in the North, now they organized their own help. It is very shortsighted of Small Jon to be mad about the Wildlings now, when he wasn’t willing to help.

    He could just as easily have gone to Castle Black and told Jon that he has his brother, if the Wildlings causes trouble on his land then Rickon gets it. That would have been a lot easier then going to Ramsay. Why would he assume that Jon and Willings would invade the North in any event? The Nights Watch is an independant organisation.

    But I am sure he will soon be paying for this mistake, for going to Ramsay in the first place.

  648. DireWolfHeart,

    I know the one time he had bawdy sense of humor with telling Jon how to be with a woman but I don’t recall anything else. I’m guessing it comes through more so in the novels.

    OT but since I’m testing out a new laptop and using internet explorer I’m having the issue you guys were complaining about with having to type in full name and email every time I post. It IS annoying, cannot wait to exchange this for a keeper soon and get Chrome back.

  649. I was just thinking about why the Three-Eyed Raven (although he seems to have 2 perfectly normal eyes in the show) keeps being such a buzzkill to Bran – and twice in a row! One can argue that it’s the writers’ way to prolong our agony and stretch out the flashback over more episodes… but I was just thinking, maybe he doesn’t want Bran to stay too long in the visions because the longer you stay, the easier it is for Bran to be discovered by the Night’s King? This ties in with the shot of Bran standing before the NK in the trailers – maybe that happened because Bran went against the Raven’s advice and stayed too long “in the sea”?

    And I also thought Tyrion’s scene with Grey Worm and Missandei was so awkward and totally unnecessary. Redundant…!

  650. Ulph demands bloodmoney,

    I don’t believe it until I see with my own eyes. Dat bulge didn’t look tiny to me 🙂

    I wonder if Edd will harbor any resentment towards Jon for leaving him the mess to clean up. He looked surprised.

  651. Boudica:
    The Umber motivation makes sense, but the guy is also being a big idiot here.

    Clearly Smalljon wasn’t to concerned about Wildlings when they were about to invade the North. They could have sent some help to the Night Watch if it was really such a big concern for him. The Nights Watch have begging the realm for help continuously.

    Why would the Wildings raid Last Hearth? They have land now, land of their own. Smalljon could just as easily have gone to the Nights Watch and he could have found out what was going on. Having a boy Lord in your possession is an incredibly valuable asset.Just look at how Littlefinger uses sweet Robin. Giving such an asset to someone like Ramsay is really incredibly dumb.

    The Nights Watch has asked repeatedly for help and they have been ignored in the North, now they organized their own help.It is very shortsighted of Small Jon to be mad about the Wildlings now, when he wasn’t willing to help.

    He could just as easily have gone to Castle Black and told Jon that he has his brother, if the Wildlings causes trouble on his land then Rickon gets it. That would have been a lot easier then going to Ramsay. Why would he assume that Jon and Willings would invade the North in any event? The Nights Watch is an independant organisation.

    But I am sure he will soon be paying for this mistake, for going to Ramsay in the first place.

    My sentiments exactly! Jon (who’s a Stark “bastard” to most eyes, not really a Stark) made that decision as a member of the NW. It was a NW issue/decision, not a Stark one. My thought also was, why not approach the NW first? Why go to the Boltons, who not only betrayed the Starks but your family too (GreatJon, on the show, was killed in the Red Wedding if I remember correctly). If approaching the NW fails, they could then go to the Boltons in the pretense of submitting to them. No need to give up a very important asset. So what if he had to kneel before Ramsay? There should be no problem betraying him later on since the Bolton family did the same thing to his family. Anyway, I’m ranting. If this Umber betrayal is a REAL betrayal, it will be one of the questionable plots for me (alongside the “Why didn’t the SS kill Jaime???? If they really want revenge on the Lannisters, that’s the Lannister you kill!!!).

  652. Julia,

    Well it is a TV show after all. Of course it’s going to cater to it’s viewers! The fact that George RR Martin has fallen way behind with the publication of the sixth book and that the seventh, if ir ever gets published, will be ready in IDK how many years would make it a suicide to cater to book readers! On the other hand, many book readers came to the books thanks to the show, so catering to pre-show readers makes even less sense.

  653. Irene,

    I think it could be case of Bran being in a vision without Three Eyed Raven. Probably he must have learned enough to visit any vision by himself

  654. kells:

    I was one of the few who really didn’t care about the ToJ ever coming to screen but the fighting was beautifully done. The one thing I didn’t like is how I always felt Ser Arthur Dayne didn’t want to fight Ned and co. but was resigned to do so out of loyalty to Rhaegar. The scene made it feel as if he was getting off or happy to kill Ned. And Rhaegar was dead. Why wouldn’t he let Lyanna’s brother go to her at that point? He knew Ned would protect her and any potential heirs. His duty just felt empty.
    But again, thought the sword fighting was cool as shit.

    I couldn’t agree more. I also loved the fighting sequence but something felt missing or lacking. I thought there would be more than “Ha, I’m gonna kill you!” “No, I’m gonna kill you!” When Ned was the only one left standing, I was half-expecting Arthur Dayne to tell him to hurry up and go upstairs to his sister. Or maybe he didn’t trust Ned would have the best interest of his sister? Anyway, I’m still happy that the producers decided to show us the TOJ. Can’t wait for the “promise me” scene.

  655. ygritte,

    How can you know what the propper emotions are regarding a resurrection. How many have you witnessed?!!!

    We’re talking here of your expectations, which are very respectable, but still very much your own.

    On the other hand I loved that they didn’t give us the “expected” reactions, because for me it made it a more dramatic ending. We saw Yarwick’s disbelief, Marsh’s asking to tell his mom that he died fulfilling his duty, Thorne dying with his boots on, and Olly feeling even more hatred for the man he had already decided to betray. The fact that he’s being killed in front of Wildlings does little to rekindle his love for Jon.
    Despite having expected they would meet their end, I was not left fist-pumping after the fact, but rather sad about the difficulty of reconciling differences. Pretty much felt Jon’s sadness there at the whole situation. Just an advance of the tough road he will face in trying to rally the North to stop the WW.

  656. ygritte,

    I didn’t think he was emasculated at all. I saw it as the kind of crude brotherly humor men use to defuse tension. I laughed out loud and even welled up a little.

  657. GhostCR,
    “How can you know what the propper emotions are regarding a resurrection. How many have you witnessed?!!!”

    Lol. I don’t need to have personally witnessed a resurrection in order to understand that normal, non-superstitious people would be shocked, or at least surprised. They probably were. We didn’t get to see it though. A couple of my friends also couldn’t wait to see the look on Thorne and Olly’s faces and were a little disappointed how it went down.

    Kit’s acting was so good. I never thought he was bad to being with, like some people, and always believed his Jon Snow, but he’s getting to be top notch now. I felt his sadness at the scene with Olly and ending of his watch, and it gave me chills, and I’m normally not emotive in that way when it comes to fiction.

  658. Sister Kisser,

    I’m onboard the Mel train at the moment (her facial expression tonight was priceless). But I do hope she’s gotten over the whole idea of sacrificing everyone with a drop of kings blood.

  659. One thing too is that if RLJ is true we won’t get to see Ser Alliser’s smug look wiped off his face when he learns who Jon really is…a grandson of the Targaryen king he was so loyal to. There would have been much satisfaction in that for me.

  660. ygritte,

    Hmm, excellent point, that would’ve been a sight to see.

    Honestly I think everyone (the writers, the fans, the Wildlings, the nights watchmen 😉 wanted Jon to move on, and he couldn’t leave a mess behind for Edd.

  661. Now that it’s been a few hours, I think my favorite part of the episode was Davos talking to Jon right after he got up. It would’ve been SO EASY for the writers to go some sort of mystical route or dramatic rise from the dead. SO EASY to end up in cheesy-land.

    Indeed, it was so unglamorous, so grounded. Jon wasn’t magical, he was confused, distraught, manic, hurting. Davos admitting the whole thing is “fucking mad”. The pep talk was genius – both in words and delivery.

  662. Everyone’s talking about what Ramsay will do to Rickon. I’m worried about what Karstark will do with Rickon…..oh dear lord have mercy.

  663. aabe,

    I like your theory of denial concerning the three norther houses although I fear it will be just that. It made me think, with Osha there is now a real spearwife in Winterfell, although an imprisoned one and Elvis has already left the building…
    Anyway, I also have a hard time to see how the Umbers could still conspire against Ramsay, if might be ok to give him some dead wolf, but handing over Rickon and potentially leaving him to be killed cannot be part of a conspiracy. So, I hope that you are right but I fear you are not.

  664. Ghosts Lunch: It’s a bit of a grey area like Lady Hornwood perhaps, they would certainly be Lady Stark but getting legitimate children may be tricky as they’d have to marry into other Houses

    I’ve always figured Bran would become a Tree and would never go south, so Rickon is heir effectively, though if he does come back he is obviously Robbs heir. Thing is in the books he can’t have children as he’s crippled, so I think Rickons children would be next in line (which is why I suspect Manderly had a girl Rickons age giving a great speech, Rickon is great marriage material for ambitious houses) but obviously if Rickons dead then Sansa and then Arya’s children are Brans heirs

    A fabulous grey area

    There is actually another way, the man could take the woman’s family name. If a great house (family name) was in danger of going out because of the lack of males to carry on the name, they would find a suitable man, a third or forth son type, to agree to take the family name upon marriage. The bloodline remains, albeit through the female side. Of course this would usually be a big step up for the man as well, a better more respected family name, etc… so say Sansa married Pod, he could become Lord Stark, instead of the son of the cousin of Lord Payne.

  665. So I noticed that this bit from the books kinda came true last night:

    “We will defend the wall to the last man!” said Cotter Pyke.

    “Probably me.” Said Dolorous Edd, in a resigned voice.

    Ha!! The Wall is yours Edd – pretty much exclusively at this point…..you can take ’em buddy 🙂

  666. Bran’s scene was big! If people in the past can hear him, wouldn’t he be able to influence and change past events? Especially with his ability to warg, could he possibly warg into any past character and change the future? Mind blowing possibilities for his story line.

    I thought it was funny, when Mel started to talk about Jon being Azor Ahai, Davos just cut her off, as in “Thanks for resurrecting Jon, now get your crazy butt out of here”. I felt bad for her for a second until I remembered Shireen…

  667. Al Swearengen:
    SansaStar,

    There’s plenty of previous scenes that have matched/surpassed my expections. “Dracarys” for example. Why is it a sin to express my disappointment? Must I lie and pretend I was satisfied?

    People around here need to relax. I mean ffs, I was elated with episode 2 and even praised Euron’s debut. Y’all seem unable to handle criticism and live in this fantasy land where every single episode is perfect.

    Amen to this. Sometimes I get the feeling if one is not 100% all positive all the time about all aspects of the show, one is not quite as welcome on here. Now doubtless there are extremists on both sides. But sometimes it is very hard indeed to get an actual substantive dialogue going.

  668. TheWatchersOnTheCouch:
    Bran’s scene was big! If people in the past can hear him, wouldn’t he be able to influence and change past events?

    If he really did anything like that, it has already happened which he is unaware of currently

  669. No one,

    Totally agree with this comment. The POV fragmentation with new season is robbing us of the character and relationship depth that has made the novels and the prior seasons truly remarkable. I’d rather have each episode back to focusing on fewer subplots. The pace now is choppy, disappointing and disrespectful of the true genius of GRRM.

  670. Wimsey: Jon will be gone: he basically has just resigned. And, yes, Ramsay will send a small force: but a small force will be all that they need. If we are getting only a season and a half after this, then the hole in the Wall that lets the Walkers through should be this year. And someone taking out Castle Black would be an easy way to set up that hole. The gun has been hung: we should expect them to fire it.

    (On a side note, I wonder if Jon will ever get to try out his “I died” excuse on Northerners.We could get our 2nd Monty Python routine of the series!)

    We will definitely get the Pink Letter, as we hear below, and it would make the most sense for Jon to be the one to read it, although that’s not guaranteed. Now that Ramsay has his gift, he has all the motivation he needs to draft the pink letter. Contrary to popular theory, I don’t think he was previously drafting the letter when he killed Roose.

    We’ve already gotten the Lannister and the Targaryen banner trailer words, so I’m hoping the Pink Letter will be Episode 4!!!

    As for the Wall, I’m looking for all 300 miles to all come tumbling down as we are thrown into the Long Night when

    the horn(s) of Joramun blow.

    As for Jon’s death and rebirth, I think it would be cool if we get a Thomas-Jesus moment: if you don’t believe me, place your hands in my wounds.

  671. Wimsey: Great dialog communicates succinctly. Most people are incapable of communicating succinctly, and thus cannot write good dialog.

    Hodor must be the master, in that case.

  672. Daniellica: LatrineDiggerBrian

    Long sullen silences and an occasional punch in the face – the Daniellica way.

    Honestly, I didn’t know what it meant and was praying that it was no where close to its literal meaning (thankfully it isn’t). The cast of X-men were doing a social media Q & A on Twitter and a fan asked the girl playing Storm to say “it’s lit”, that is where I got it from. Per Urban Dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Its%20Lit .

  673. Mihnea:
    Green Chili,

    The actor who plays Payne got cancer and they said a long time ago, that they will not recast him.

    I heard that he actually is free of cancer and some people were campaigning for him to be back on the show.

  674. ygritte,

    Again you’re talking about what people expected. To me what is making this season so interesting is that we’re getting what we expect will happen (Jon’s resurrection, Thorne’s and Olly’s demises), but not necessarilly the way we expect it. It’s happening with less “fanfare”.

    The show is moving forward fast. These first episodes are showing us the change of guard everywhere, and all the complications that acompany it. It’s a whole new ball game now. If earlier we had a focal point in KL now we have an inexperienced leadership facing several issue a at once.

  675. Thronetender:
    Can someone fill me in on what’s happening to Dany? Are they going to put her through some kind of trial of humility or something because she dared “to go out into the world” after Drogo died? Who or what will be the deciding factor of her fate?

    The implication is that Dany is to be put on trial for her life. All of the khalasars, who are gathering there for other reasons, will decide her fate. If she is fortunate, she will get to live at Dosh Khaleen, says the Queen Crone. I’m thinking she’ll be sentenced to death, and then we’ll feel like the Drogon retribution will be well earned.

  676. Sam:
    Of course, Sansa and Arya could still bear children but those children won’t carry the Stark name (if I’m not mistaken).

    Women can pass on the family name if need be. It happens whenever there’s a female head of house.

  677. J,

    I know it was a quick glimpse, but the head seemed to be smaller than what they have previously portrayed.

  678. viki: There is actually another way, the man could take the woman’s family name.If a great house (family name) was in danger of going out because of the lack of males to carry on the name, they would find a suitable man, a third or forth son type, to agree to take the family name upon marriage.The bloodline remains, albeit through the female side. Of course this would usually be a big step up for the man as well, a better more respected family name, etc… so say Sansa married Pod, he could become Lord Stark, instead of the son of the cousin of Lord Payne.

    Yeah I think this may be it (hence the tussle over Lady Hornwood between Boltons and Manderly’s in aGoT)

    Think you might have a point if I remember Cats talk with Robb over his will

    Plus there’s marrying Tyrion to Sansa, eg can’t inherit Casterly Rock but perhaps can inherit Winterfell as a Stark. And then Harry the Heir and Ramsay to fArya

    This might be a bit of a thematic point, eg the HS went on about “the Mother” to Tommen

    Of course the big one where this may apply in of course Aegon, if he is indeed a Blackfyre through the female line

    So I expect this to become an important principle

  679. Just a thought I had about how Sansa will get Littlefinger to move against Winterfell.

    Maybe she will promise to marry him in exchange for his help in retaking Winterfell.

    Thoughts?

  680. This episode was amazing. Really brilliant, dark and down to Earth, much better than the previous one in my opinion. I really hope they don’t get that rushed so that the story unfold in a natural way. Great characters coming back, no “surprise” deaths, a lot of tension (I was really fearing for everyone in that small council scene) and a lot of things will soon be tied and closed.

  681. Jon Stark,

    Sansa doesn’t need to do anything to get Littlefinger to move against Winterfell. He’s already planning to do that.

  682. Starkist,

    Possible

    Although they mentioned Manderly’s last week and then mentioned White Harbour specifically at the hanging scene

    So sounds like they may be setting the scene for northern politics

    Eg Karstarks are fully on Ramsays side + others
    Mormonts fully on Starks side + others (eg Cerwyns)

    Umbers is on the fence, is biddable but do a double-cross betrayal of Starks and switch to Boltons

    Manderly’s on the fence, but do a double-cross betrayal of Boltons and switch to Starks perhaps?

    Keeping in mind Manderly’s straddle North/RL

    spoiler theory

    Eg if Umbers delivers Shaggydogs head perhaps we get Frey Pie on the other side of the coin from manderly’s

    Have to remember White Harbour straddles North/Riverlands so this may get tied up in RW Mk2 plot when the Lannisters perhaps re-take Rivverrun, eg this is the other side of “the Wildlings are coming south” and instead we have “Lannisters coming north”

    Then there’s Howland Reed potentially being setup, he may prospectively oust the Boltons from Moat Cailin allowing Sweetrobin, Littlefinger and Lord Royce northward with the Vale army

    Of course the other dynamic concerns the Reeds and Sweetrobin/Littlefinger

    Ah this is the joy of being an unsullied show viewer now, we can ponder what may be without risk of being spoiled by book readers, only risk now comes from cast member leaks lol

  683. Jon Stark:
    Just a thought I had about how Sansa will get Littlefinger to move against Winterfell.

    Maybe she will promise to marry him in exchange for his help in retaking Winterfell.

    Thoughts?

    She doesen’t need that, she only needs to reach out to her cousin Sweetrobin for help

    LF theoretically controls Sweetrobin but like Tommen with Cersei he can do his own thing and dismiss any LF machinations if he is emotinally charged enough

    And of course the Vale armies would presumably only follow Lord Royce into battle as a miliatary commander at Sweetrobins behest, well in the books at least, if they can put Ellaria in control of Dorne…..

  684. Strong episode overall, with the Tower of Joy being the absolute delight of the episode. I don’t care if it was 6 v 2 versus 7 v 3, I had an absolute blast. Loved that Bran saw Ned’s honor splinter slightly.
    My full thoughts

  685. A great episode over all. Glad they slowed the pace down just a bit from last week.
    CB stood out in a positive way. Not sure why some people thought Jon would spare Thorne &Co. prior to the episode. They frigging killed him.
    “My watch has ended” was epic.
    I was hoping for the full TOJ scene, but we will get the other half in episode 5 I think.
    Can’t decide about the Umbers. One would assume if they try to fool Ramsey they would not have turned over the real Rickon. I fear for Rickon and Osha.
    And OMFG, Shaggydog. As a dog owner all I have to say is DIE, SMALLJON, DIE.
    Already hyped for next Sunday.

  686. The Waif strange reaction not being caused by the mention of Walder Frey’s name would be bad editing. Even beginners are aware of that.

  687. Sean C.,

    Yes for his own purposes. What’s to stop him from betraying her? She knows he’s a sneaky bastard lol

    I think she know’s he’s not to be trusted. A marriage proposal would be the only likely way she could ensure he wouldn’t double cross her as she clearly know’s he’s after dat ass.

  688. If Sansa just so even thinks of asking Littlefinger for help Ima gonna pull a Kanye on the show’s editing room and film my own damn show.

    Arthur Dayne is going to be in it… he was hot

  689. I can’t reconcile dead shaggy with umber being book manderly, it’s almost like the tv writers are telling us to forget about manderly and the pies, it not happening.

    regarding rickon and osha’s impending death at the hands of Ramsay, it sucks. I know I am in the tiniest minority but I like Rickon’s character more than Robb’s. I think Rickon’s been better written and acted than Robb. I’d take Rickon Osha Shaggy scenes any day of the week over Robb Talisa Grey wind. I can’t believe that after all of the ceremony over the deaths of the other two dire wolves they just show us shaggy’s head.

    I am hoping Arya and Bran will work together, wishful thinking. Jon’s dead and Sansa and Rickon have no dire wolf so they are half dead.

    Clegane bowl is looking more and more like a possibility, they’ve been setting it up since early in season 1

  690. teunteulai,

    I can’t remember but it seems that last season there was a quick little scene of the high sparrow putting on his robe that showed he had a bad scar on his abdomen. Or maybe I dreamed it. Or I’ve probably confused it with some other scene.

  691. Jon Stark:
    Yes for his own purposes. What’s to stop him from betraying her? She knows he’s a sneaky bastard lol

    I think she know’s he’s not to be trusted. A marriage proposal would be the only likely way she could ensure he wouldn’t double cross her as she clearly know’s he’s after dat ass.

    The most obvious thing stopping him from betraying her would be that his soldiers are more loyal to her than to him, since the Valemen in the show are pro-Stark.

  692. I just re-watched the ToJ fight. All this bickering about the Dayne’s famed sword not being used… Well it looks like Ser Arthur Dayne stick it in the ground to put his helmet on and then picked it up again. Besides this sword he only appears to be carrying one other sword.

    The fact that he uses two swords instead one seemed to me an example of his experience as a warrior. The KG where outnumbered, and very quickly things evolved to a 4 to 1 fight. Unlike so many movies I’ve seen where attackers take turns fighting with the guy in disadvantage, they were all fighting against him. He stood better chances using two weapons instead of only one. Not that I have any fighting experience, but…still

  693. Jon Stark,

    I don’t think she can marry LF. She’s still married to Ramsay. For all that he’s a sociopath, I’m not sure divorce is an option in Westeros.

  694. ThisGirlHasNoName:
    Jon Stark,

    I don’t think she can marry LF. She’s still married to Ramsay. For all that he’s a sociopath, I’m not sure divorce is an option in Westeros.

    And Tyrion! Don’t forget Tyrion. I love that Sansa is the Rhaegar of her generation. I am Queen of the North. Here are all my consorts.

  695. Just like to say I said they should leave the fight at the ToJ out as it ruins it’s mystique and can’t possibly live up to expectations.

  696. Honest question here. Why would Bran care what happened in the tower? Don’t get me wrong, he will probably be fascinated and a bit confused once he realizes that his Aunt Lyanna died giving birth to Jon. The realization that his Father took the baby to raise as his own, to protect him from the wrath of the new King, will probably tug at the heart strings. But how is this any type of game changer for Bran?
    I understand how it will be for Jons arc, if the whole 3 heads of the dragon theory pans out, but the build up over 6 seasons to find out who his parents are doesn’t seem to have much dramatic impact overall unless it pulls in all the other major plot points. So I guess my question is, why does it matter? Not being sarcastic or anything, just wondering if this build up has a payoff that is a game changer, especially if the show is only going another season or two.

  697. GhostCR,

    I sort of feel like they should have spent more time there. I saw inside the episode where Dan or Dave said they originally had a lot more dialogue at the scene with Jon, Davos and Mel. I don’t remember why they omitted much of it, or if they even stated.

  698. kells:
    Honest question here. Why would Bran care what happened in the tower? Don’t get me wrong, he will probably be fascinated and a bit confused once he realizes that his Aunt Lyanna died giving birth to Jon. The realization that his Father took the baby to raise as his own, to protect him from the wrath of the new King, will probably tug at the heart strings. But how is this any type of game changer for Bran?
    I understand how it will be for Jons arc, if the whole 3 heads of the dragon theory pans out, but the build up over 6 seasons to find out who his parents are doesn’t seem to have much dramatic impact overall unless it pulls in all the other major plot points. So I guess my question is, why does it matter? Not being sarcastic or anything, just wondering if this build up has a payoff that is a game changer, especially if the show is only going another season or two.

    How, indeed.

    The fact that Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne should change everything, especially if we put it together with prophecies of The Prince That Was Promised and Azor Ahai Reborn and The Last Hero. Bran has to help Jon become that hero, reach and fulfill his destiny. The fate of the world rests on Jon’s shoulders. Yes, he’ll need the other two heads of the dragon, but all of this would be for naught if Jon weren’t AAR, TPTWP, TSWMTW.
  699. Jon Stark,

    I dislike Sansa the arrogant and unguided. Sansa will be guided well with Jon and Brienne.
    If Sansa is surrounded by people who advise her for her interest, then she will get the northerns support. if she want to listen for those who want their own interest such little finger or theon, then she will cause lots of troubles for Jon and her people.
    things to remember about Sansa;
    * if she told the truth of what happened between Arya and prince Jeoffry, the whole fate of all characters will change, at least king Robert is strong at that time and she may not lose Lady.
    * She is still married to Tyrion, once her name reach Essos, Tyrion and Sansa will be the connection between Dany and Jon.
    These are my thoughts

Comments are closed.