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Massacre, assassination, and a coronation: what more could you want from a Game of Thrones season finale? Let’s see what the critics had to say about season 6, episode 10, “The Winds of Winter.”
Here at The Wall, Sue (Sullied) breaks down the finale and even offers some season 7 speculations. She applauds the gorgeous Oldtown, Ramin Djawadi’s score, and of course, the Queens that reigned supreme throughout the finale. Oz (Unsullied) basks in the green light of the Sept and the vengeful dish served at The Twins in what he calls “arguably one of the best finales in the show’s history.”
Since this episode contained moments from the book series and the past, some authors are noted as Sullied or Unsullied. Be sure to still exercise caution when reading some reviews for book spoilers.
Caitlin PenzeyMoog, A.V. Club (Sullied) – New to the rounds this week, PenzeyMoog shines a light on the book reader’s viewing experience saying they “got an appropriately shocking set of scenes that must have felt for us what Ned’s beheading and the Red Wedding felt like for non-readers: An “I can’t believe that just happened” moment.”
Alyssa Rosenberg, The Washington Post (Sullied) – Paying for an “uneven season,” Rosenberg says the episode “stuck the landing, assembling all of its chess pieces effectively for two final battles while also delivering some grand spectacle moments of pure delight.”
Sean T. Collins, Rolling Stone – Collins revels in the season finale calling it “explosive and powerful.”
Rob Bricken, io9 – Bricken delights in the finale and the ending it provided for so many characters. “It was absolutely relentless in how much story it gave us, but these conclusions felt earned, just as it did back when it was following George R.R. Martin’s stories to the letter.”
James Hibberd, Entertainment Weekly – Hibberd calls the episode “the bloodiest and most game-changing Game of Thrones finale ever.” EW also has post-finale interviews with Lena Headey (Cersei), Natalie Dormer (Margaery), and Emilia Clarke (Daenerys).
Sarah Hughes, The Guardian (Sullied) – Hughes also praises the episode saying the season ended with “a heart-stopping conclusion heavy in blood, revenge and death in which scores were settled, new alliances formed, old fan theories confirmed and the stage set for what promises to be the mother of all clashes.”
Neil Miller, Film School Rejects (Sullied) – Miller breaks down the reveals of “The Winds of Winter” and says the conclusion of season 6 “finished with several bangs and while it closed many storylines, it also opened up new ones. Providing as much intrigue for the future as it did closure for the present.”
David Crow, Den of Geek – Crow notes the end in sight as he says the finale “feels like the final turning point in the series before we enter the fabled endgame.”
Laura Hudson, Wired – Opening with a highly applicable quote from Tyrion to Dany (“How about the fact that this is really happening?”), Hudson revels in the many satisfying moments from the season 6 finale.
Alan Sepinwall, Hitfix – Sepinwall analyzes the death toll of “The Winds of Winter” and calls the episode a “masterpiece.”
Brandon Norwalk, A.V. Club (Unsullied) – Norwalk applauds the loose ends tied up and calls “The Winds of Winter” the end of the “second act” for Game of Thrones.
Jen Chaney, Vulture – Chaney gives the episode a 5 star rating noting “Winter is no longer merely coming. Winter is here.”
David Malitz, The Washington Post (Unsullied) – Malitz calls the finale “overstuffed” but says the season still picked up with its last two episodes.
Laura Bogart, Salon – Bogart calls the finale “explosive” and reviews how the finale set the great game in motion.
Laura Stone, Hey, Don’t Judge Me (Unsullied) – Stone laments for Margaery but is still floored by Cersei’s wildfire massacre and the many big moments the finale packed.
David Rosenblatt, Squinty Over Analyzes Things (Sullied) – Rosenblatt analyzes the phenomenon Game of Thrones has become and the fan impact on the series.
Michal Schick, Hypable – Schick examines the explosive vengeance and satisfying reveals of “The Winds of Winter.”
Alicia Lutes, Nerdist – Lutes accurately encompasses the fan reaction saying the episode “just had everything” and that she “dug the shit out of this episode, but I also have no chill.”
Same, Alicia, same.
Well there you have it! The final round of satisfied critics as the season 6 finale packed more than a few big moments. Stay tuned for Bex’s video recap round-up later this week and Watchers for the off season! We’ve already begun with casting announcements, and filming is sure to follow.
A special thank you to all our supporters who flock to The Wall week after week to nerd out with us! Be sure to sign off below with your thoughts on the reviews and the season finale.
Until Season 7!
Mad Queen is mad!
Run for the hills! Save the children and livestock!
Frey pie!
Darth Cersei!
Jaehaerys!
Howland Reed!
Stunning episode!
Pretty much all scenes were excellent, but I found Tommen’s suicide particularly powerful. It also reminded me of a scene in one of my favourite movies, “Ida” by Paweł Pawlikowski. I wonder if Sapochnik might have been inspired by this amazing film?
A comparison:
They have really messed up Arya’s ark in the story. So she went from Braavos all the way to The Twins, killed some people and then made delicious people pie so she can fed it to Walder Frey before killing the man? Sorry, but that is insulting to my intelligence. I guess the producers are getting tired of the show.
The Winds of winter is still a 10 on IMDB with 44,153 votes 🙂
Sadly, this episode wasn’t that good to deserve a 10/10. Arya teleports to The Twins, she kills and bakes and kill some more. That’s ridiculous. Lord Varys teleports all over the place. Ridiculous #2. Daenerys suddenly has hundreds of ships (?). Ridiculous #3. Tyrion is still weird etc. The writers are getting lazy, if you ask me.
Seasons 1 -4 were the first act, Seasons 5 and 6 were the second act, and now the third and final act is upon us: Season 7 and Season 8
can’t wait to see the Emmy nominations for this year ^^ can’t wait to see how many nominations Game of Thrones has 🙂
Vlad the Impaler,
#1 We don’t know how much her timeline in Braavos differed since it was so isolated and Frey pie is actually in the books, though not made by Arya. I thought it was a great way to include it. And it makes sense she would go there first-since that’s where she really lost all hope at the end of Red Wedding.
#2 Varys went to Dorne to get allies and ships for all her Dothraki and Unsullied He came back with ships (at the end you see Tyrell and Sunspear ships beside Dany’s) Yes, he’s wearing the same outfit-but the fact that she had Targ sails and Dragon prows etc-means enough time has gone by to make that happen.
#3 See #2
I’m absolutely with Alicia from Nerdist. Still kind of freaking out. 🙂
Kit is going to have a much better off season this year ahahaha 😀
You must be fun at parties.
I love Mother’s Mercy, but I am really happy that this finale didn’t have a lot of cliffhangers. This past off season felt extra long and tedious because of them and I don’t think I could do another year of a Jon Snow type cliffhanger.
A day after, I’m still on a high. These past 2 episodes just blew me away. I’ll be watching again before I hit the sack. The long night is upon us. Sigh.
Tsiar,
It also reminded me of Matteo’s suicide scene in “Best of Youth,” which is one of the most powerful scenes in TV history, IMO. This is one of GoT’s finest hours.
Give Sapochnik the entirety of season 7! 🙂
Vlad the Impaler,
That’s a pretty lazy review, if you ask me.
Ditto
ArgonathofBraavos,
The second he took off his crown I apparently started saying something along the lines of “F*&% no F$%# no no baby f*^& no f&*6 no”… and I’m not a show talker.
I can’t believe I was more upset for Tommen than Margery even. Mad skillz.
it was lovely and painful and the music… this new broken-disconected Cercei Lannister theme oh!
Alicia’s review was batshit funny. Props.
One thing that’s really stood out to me is how much the casual viewer really hasn’t grasped the TOJ of reveal.
I think obviously all the critics – including Unsullied – who are paid to keep track of the happenings on this show totally understand the ramifications, as do all of us.
But I talked to three friends who were all “wait, who is that again? Wait, Ned’s sister had a baby? With who? Wait, is that Jon?” And they had other friends who were just as confused.
I think splitting the TOJ in two in particular had that effect – that talk about Rhaegar, about the Prince (and at the Trident, the King) wanting the Kingsguard at the Tower, all the implications of that were lost on a lot of viewers, because when that scene was actually happened, few really understand that the conversation (not just the fight) was significant.
I understand doing it this way, because I DO think it’s in part some deference for GRRM, but also because it allows them to keep people wanting more.
I was just surprised at how many people who just really didn’t get it. It shows how much you have to hammer the casual viewer on the head to remember anything.
I have a feeling Sapochnik might be doing more then 2 elisodes next year. With the shortened season maybe they can get 3 out of him.
The cut straight to Jon pretty much was saying the baby was him. The music was even swelling.
Jack Bauer 24,
I really hope I see Sapochik and jack bender back for season 7.
Nadia,
Meh… I read the books and saw the show. I STILL would barely get R+L = J if it wasn’t spoiled to me. Some people don’t OBSESS over the plot twists – they don’t want to know. Heck, The Sixth Sense blew my mind because I shook off thinking about the start of the story. The Village was crap because I couldn’t.
When I read the books – I chose to never think about who Jon’s mother/father was. I sure as hell knew it wasn’t Ned, based on.. Ned. And I knew he was hiding someone. But I didn’t ever stop to deliberately think about it.
I’m loving discussing the parentage of Jon with everyone casual right now – a perfect thing to discuss for the next 10 months. Oooo fun!
Wildfire though… everyone and their cousin who doesn’t even watch the show saw the wildfire coming. NO subtlety to that one at all… wildfire? Did you know about the wildfire that’s in King’s Landing? I hear, that 20 years ago wildfire was a big thing…
Vlad the Impaler,
Eat a footlong Clegane special please.
Jack Bauer 24,
BOOM drop the mic
Doing three GoT episodes in a single year sounds like extreme masochism based on everything I’ve ever heard from any GoT director. Has anyone ever done three…? That just sounds nuts. Especially since Sapochnik would undoubtedly be asked to do another “Hardhome”/”Battle of the Bastards” type deal…
Jack Bauer 24,
Yes. It’s all very obvious to you, and maybe to some. But the bigger implications, Lyanna, Rhaegar, any of it, it takes a while for it to sink in. There was a lot of, “wait, that’s Jon? Is that Jon’s mother? what?”
And not a lot of HOLY SHIT LYANNA AND RHAEGAR. Because they split up TOJ, because you need to hammer things over viewers head, the entire beginning conversation about Rhaegar, about why the Kingsguard would be there kind of slipped out of peoples’ mind as connected to what happened inside the Tower.
If you want a real HOLY CRAP moment, rewatch Robb Stark being named King in the North.
I’ve forgotten so much, and it still makes me emotional (Richard Madden’s eyes!)
But Theon bending the knee and giving the same line as Lyanna Mormont, “from this day until my/his last day.”
And the way Robb/Jon turns to look at Cat/Sansa in emotion, and they both smile but also look very somber.
This show <3
Vlad the Impaler,
Its you who lacks intelligence! I ain’t going to bother repeating what I have a written on the Unsullied review. Go there and read it yourself – Comments and replies regarding time scales between scenes, the show runners having to compress story lines to fit into an hour long episodes, etc, etc.
Readers with common sense (which it seems you lack) accept things like this and don’t need to be fucking spoon fed with all the irrelevant details of how characters move around, turn up unexpected in scenes or do what they do.
For fucks sake, its a fictional/fantasy TV show. Just take it on face value and enjoy it as it comes!
Nadia,
Same experience! I posted this on the other thread. Yeah, I have friends asking me, “Who’s the daddy???” They missed that bit about Rhaegar “abducting” Lyanna. Although to all of them, it was clear the baby was Jon.
BTW, if Lyanna indeed gave a Targ name to Jon, that’s almost a confirmation that she was not abducted and raped. She’d only do that if she loved the father and wanted to honor him.
Sam,
Agreed. I think everyone got that it was Jon, even though people had a “wait, what?” moment. But the first part of the TOJ, the talk about Rhaegar being dead (and being King when he died, wanting the Kingsguard to guard the Tower, all of that seemed totally disconnected to people.
Unless you read the books in rapid succession, I think it is pretty hard to figure out rlj on your own. I accidently got spoiled on it while reading ASOS, and at the time, I could just barely remember briefly pondering the question of Jon’s mother when I read AGOT ~10 years (and several hundred other books) earlier. Heck, when I first picked up ACOK, I was struggling to remember such basic things like “Jon is Ned’s bastard son” or “Cersei and Jaime are twins”. Unless you were obsessed with the series and either hung out on places like this or read them multiple times, the clues are very thin and spread out, and hard to put together on your own.
Nadia,
OH THE FEELS!!! The parallel between those two scenes is amazing… I hope Jon and Sansa have a better fate than Robb and Catelyn though.
Nadia,
HBO just posted this video and they’re talking about this theory about the Mad King being Jon’s father. So this will never end, huh???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe-ud_SMEik
Sam,
Lol it’s ridiculous.
I can understand why that happened, and I have to believe it’s in part deference to GRRM. Still, D&D are still trying to keep part of it a “mystery” and I’ll bet a whole swath of viewers were still in the dark.
I have this weird sense that maybe after watching this TOJ scene Bran says to Meera – screw Winterfell, take me to your father. It has to matter that Howland Reed was pointed out by 3ER and Meera is still with Bran.
And Bran going to Howland Reed (as opposed to straight to Winterfell) is how we get some time for a little Jon/Sansa drama.
The previously on even included the Sansa/LF convo about Rhaegar.
Black Raven,
This. Yes.
.
Chad Brick,
Totally agree. – I watch lots of shows that manage to let me know what I need to know without being spoon fed, but without making me wonder what it is that I just watched. But those shows don’t have the complexity that this one does. Its hard enough remembering who all the actual characters are in the show for most people. Trying to get them to recall someone who’s been dead for 20 years is really impossible without making things pretty clear. Yes, the show mentions his name a few times in conversations. But he is never shown, certainly not with Lyanna (who most people are not going to connect with the young girl at Winterfell in the visions), they have no idea why she’s in the tower and who the people are that Ned and co are fighting. That is a major problem with adapting this kind of story – writers would bore viewers to tears with all the ways they’d have to catch people up to speed in order to understand the story. I think the writers of the show have done a good job most of the time, but I think they did miss the boat when it comes to this very important theory that has huge implications for the plot.
Still what’s weird to me is the Gary’s jetpack that keeps being mentioned, but nobody is talking about the ending scene being the first time Varys and Dany are on screen together. They still haven’t had a conversation!
I joked with a friend… What an insane twist…”can you believe Ned got his sister pregnant?” And someone fell for it… Explaining to me how rhaegar must be the father… So viewers might think a lot of things.
So Theon is ok with Dany going to conquer Westeros knowing Sansa is there?
Nadia,
I like this. At some point, if Jon not being Ned’s son is important, it would seem that you need Howland Reed to corroborate Jon being Lyanna’s son.
Conquering does not mean anahliating everything walking because it wouldn’t be conquering would it?
Last he checked The Boltons rule the north and Sansa was heading to the wall.
For all you know he probably wants Danny in the Iron throne and Sansa as warden of the north, see how that works?
Vlad the Impaler,
Please – let go of the timeline issues and sit back and enjoy the show. You’re only ruining it for yourself. Time has passed and Winter is here.
I never understood the complains since it’s been like that since episode one.
Nights watch deserter is beyond the wall and in the same episode he’s right by Wintefell.
Same episode The Starks find the Direwolf pups and in the same episode they grow about 60 pounds bigger and in the same episode The Starks get a raven from Kings Landing saying Robert Baratheon is riding North and gets there on the same episode.
It’s call time skipping to move the story forward it’s the SAME THING as any TV or Movie except sometimes they put a caption like “3 weeks later” for people that can’t understand that time has passed.
https://youtu.be/CY5As-RP1MM
Love going back and watching early scenes that planted the seeds. This Cersei/Robert convo about Lyanna is one of my favorites. All the way back in Season 1 🙂
Jack Bauer 24,
Somebody should put something together with every Rhaegar and Lyanna mention-there are actually a lot in the series–including all of Jon’s references to not knowing his mother-Cat’s line that she’d cursed her family because she couldn’t love a motherless child…oh and the one where she’s discussing Ned coming back with a bastard from the war–and both parts of tower of joy segment.
That would be an epic video. And helpful to all the people who are still confused 🙂
Well, I can’t speak of all viewers, but I know that three friends of mine watching the series immediately figured out that Jon’s dad was “that Prince” (ok, two didn’t remember his name and the other was “what was his name again, Edgar or something”). I think it had been made amply known that Lyanna had been abducted by “that Prince” in almost every season, and there had also been casual hints to the fact that maybe she was not unwilling, after all, so I believe that a careful viewer can easily put 2 and 2 together.
On the other hand, I was surprised to see that the LF did not (put 2 and 2 together, even if his 2+2 is tougher). I mean, I always thought that he suspected the abduction was rather an elopment and that the newborn Ned brought back was really someone else’s bastard son. Well, apparently not, he’s as much in the dark as everyone else.
I did not read all 3000 comments since ep aired so please help me out with this one.
Is Jon now a Stark in name or still a Snow ?
Vlad the Impaler,
Look out Vlad!
Didn’t you get the memo? Can’t say anyhting bad about GoT or the fanboys wil stuff you in a pie and eat you.
Arya = good and sooo badass. Walder Frey = bad.
WHY ARENT YOU FISTPUMPING THIS IS AWESOME%$^&
But no really, that was very poorly written.
I want that pay-off, I want Arya gloriously killing Walder Frey. But I Don’t want it to be just another box to be ticked off by the producers.
Just like Benjen=Coldhands (“check, okay he can piss off again”) and Rickon-no Lines.
I dont mind the Varys jetpacking so much. Was just very odd to watch and took me out of that supposedly triumphant moment (and i want that introduction to Dany).
For me I still think this season had absolute briljant scenes (The Door was off the charts awesome), but for me – and I counted myself a shameless fanboy up to this season- it was just a bit too much unearned fanservice and (b)rushed off characters.
Sam,
If there ever was any alternative to rhaegar being dad its mad king himself …
I say he cam be very possible ..
The others like arthur ,ned .,brandon never really made any sense
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Well, I guess still a Snow, Lord Glovet (or Glover, didn’t catch that) while stating his support said “to Jon Snow”.
Though I guess if Jon’s king now, he could change his name. Couldn’t he?
It was funny though that at the exact same moment we had this revelation that he’s not Ned’s bastard son after all.
firstone,
Not every child of mad king needs to be mad ..
Not every mad one needs to child of mad king ..
Fantastic finale, the music, the plot, everything was perfect ! If i were to be nitpicking i would say it would have been even better if Ghost was seen alongside Jon when Wyman said The White Wolf.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
He is going to be snow even when he gets the Iron throne
I have a question for the R+L=J theory. We now know for sure that Lyanna is John’s mother, leading us to speculate further that Rhaegar (excuse the spelling) is supposed to be the father, thus John is a Targeryan. However, during season 1, when Ned looked at the family tree book of all the kings dynasties it was apparent that the children’s hair color matched that of their fathers. Targeryans are known for their blond-silver hair color. John’s is dark…. Maybe his father is someone else? And if yes, why keep his identity a secret?
Sansa is gonna betray Jon, right?? I mean, it’s coming…
Geone,
Exactly, I was kind of looking for him too, to see if he was lurking under the table or something!
What’s that “White Wolf” thing”? Does it mean anything, calling him the White Wolf?
Pau,
I don’t think so. I think she’s just trying to figure out how to get rid of LF. But I think she will stay loyal to House Stark, and in that moment, although I didn’t expect it to be so, House Stark is Jon.
But you can see clearly her face of disappointment when they declare Jon KitN…why show it, then?
Pau,
No, she seems happy enough until her eye catches LF’s.
dragonbringer,
Aerys never spend a night with her and Rhaegar hide her for more than year. It doesn’t make sense in timeline. Only logical explanation is Rhaegar.
About Iron Throne. Unlikely as Daeny would never share this with anyone. She wants power more than anything on the show so even if she married Jon. She would be the in position of power and not Jon. Also he would let her as he’s not at best in those things but serve as her husband. It will probably turned out as loveless marriage for political purpose to keep peace.
Sou,
It kinda shows that you don’t need to rely on your status. He might very well be legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. but he can be King even as a bastard. It shows you sometimes actions matters and not just birthright or name. Also he’s not Ned’s son and Lyanna’s which LF might use to use advantage. Northerners might view Jon differently once his parentage is revealed and he’s son of Rhaegar who is hated in the North.
Pau,
Nobody mentioned her part and Jon should’ve said something to praise her in front of Northerners but I guess we need feud between them. If the whole episode was point to showed her anger and jealousy. Either Sophie just likes Kit and can’t be mad at him or they’re trolling. Because while she was dissapointed when Lyanna proclaimed Jon King in the North and all but anger and jealousy. She was worried about LF as he now targets Jon who she likes and also kinda you were right look.
Geralt of Rivia,
Like I said the only other possiblity other than rhaegar but not saying he is the one..
You keep saying that this that the thing she wants most is power and its not all what she wants ..she wants the change and better lives for those small folks..
She changed slavers bay.
She changed dothraki.
She wants the ironborn to change ..
She wants the lords of westeros change…
The one who wants power will not be willing to let another kingdom to get into independence..
She just said that she will have to marry now ..
If she did not care about what others think she would have taken darrio with her.
She sit aside and let hizdar rule and keeps thinking how nice it would be too have son of rhaegar alive to share and let him rule..
I know you will say that’s why you said she wants power in show but even in the show she doesnt want the power alone for her and she certainly willing to share the throne ..
Maybe we’re to caught up in the thick of it but all my unsullied friends, who are generally quite clueless, did pick up in her dissapointment and all have asked me if she will betray him or not. And tbh it does make sense, because in the books we can infer that they don’t get to spend quality time as brother and sister and in the books Littlefinger doesn’t sell her to the Boltons.
I think the betrayal is clearly coming
Geralt of Rivia,
Anyways I was not even thinking about dany when I said he will be snow even when gets the throne after the war of dawn and dany dies
Vlad, Black Raven is right about the time scales of travel.
So please suspend your rational thoughts of travel times, get rid of your disbelief in Westerose and Essos travel times, just buckle up get on board and enjoy a great Fantasy Story. It so much more fun this way.
I’ve did that with Doctor Who ever since I saw the very first espiode and the first Doctor.
So Cersei + Euron confirmed?
Good point. That makes sense. Someone who was there would only be relevant if it’s about convincing others of Jon’s parentage though.
But maybe Bran just tells Jon directly, and he has no reason not to believe him, so it would be just a thing between Jon and Dany, maybe something that prevents or complicates a possible marriage.
If there’s some truth to speculations about Dragons and the Targaryen lineage it might even force them into that marriage, because they’re the only Targaryens left, and more Dragons are needed in the future.
King Snow?
So his children are going to be named Snow?
Thats a bastard name of the north for gods sake!
The producers f**** up Glover should have said Stark ….
Yes, my unsullied friends only caught it because I had told them about R+L=J over and over….and over
Pau,
Either bertrayl or simply their difference will be show not so subtle. But in the end she might make a right choice. Also Bran factor.
Chad Brick,
Right. I’d like to think I’m a pretty attentive reader. I read the first 4 books in quick succession back in 2009, and I had no clue about R+L=J. The hints are few and far between.
Well this is fun. I only wrote Winds of Winters is not a 10/10. In other words, it is simply not THAT good, but that does not mean it is a BAD episode, far from it. However, nuances seem to matter little though and here I am being labeled as not fun (vyse), a lazy reviewer (ArgonathofBraavos) and lacking in intelligence (Black Raven), invited to “eat a footlong Clegane special please” (One of Roose Bolton’s 20 good leeches). That’s a bit ridiculous. What is this, a meeting of the Communist Party?
RG> I just don’t think a SINGLE GIRL, regardless of her name, can kill men, cut them to pieces, make good men-pie out of them and then feed to their father. I’ve heard about the story in the books and it made a lot more sense. For me, what they’ve done to Arya in the show is utterly ridiculous. That being said, I want to thank you for points #2 and #3 of your explanation. If only our other colleagues would be as courteous as you! I just wish the writers would’ve bothered a bit more with the show’s story, but it’s becoming pretty clear to me that they simply want it to be over as soon as possible.
King Podrick> I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but expressing disagreement with the rushing of the story is not the same thing with “not understanding that time has passed”. I do understand the passing of time, I simply will not find excuses for bad writing. Do nuances matter any more in this world of ours or should the heretics pay for expressing a different opinion?
I guess i’ll have to take The Mummer’s Dragon’s advice* and simply go with the flow. Or at least keep my mouth shut so I don’t “trigger micro-aggressions”.
* On a serious note, The Mummer’s Dragon’s advice is good advice. A TV show is just a TV show and nothing more.
Yes, I agree.
PS: Can I ask you an offtopic? Have you read all the Geralt of Rivia books?
The thing about RLj is that its what that takes many into the forums ..
I guess everyone will get the suspicion that jon is son of rhaegar and lyanna …particularly lyanna ..
To me that thing about lyanna looking like arya and arya and jon looking like the same and the fever dream essentially made my mind that jon is indeed lyanna’s son..
And let’s be real here a hidden prince who ends up hero is one of the biggest tropes in fantasy..
So I wanted to confirm my theory and went on to post what I suspect in westeros.org…what did I know there was already a titled page which is on its way to version 45 or something..
And iam not the only one like this over the years I have seen many post that theory after reading the book like something they have found and only to realize that its already well known.
Next season:
LF and Sansa start looking in Jon´s parentage deeper in trying to undermine him somehow.
And thats how it get revealed.
Since we have like 13 episodes. They can spend half of that on Jon/LF/Sansa and Daeny/Cersei/Euron before moving to white walkers or they will spend less of time with them and move onto them.
dragonbringer,
In your opinion. When Daeny told Tyrion that she felt nothing when she talked to Daario and she thought that she loved him. Do you think she will love again or simply not? Tyrion mentioned someone will love her but what about Daeny and her feelings. She clearly still love Drogo so if it’s possibleto love someone else.
Perhaps LF and Sansa will dig into Jon’s parentage or Bran will reveal and they’ll use it. Rhaegar is hated in the North. This seems like the only option for Northerners to turn against Jon or unless he does something like Robb.
R+L=J was obvious, if you ask me. GRRM pretty much spelled it out in Ned Stark’s final chapter in AGoT when he dreams/revisits the tourney at Harrenhal.
Its why I always twice read dream sequences, more often than not I’ve found GRRM uses those to give hints to the readers.
Geralt of Rivia,
Yes I do believe she is capable of loving and will find someone to love ..
I know you are not going to like what iam say but your question just reminded me of something ..
You were right dany loves drogo most but when she thinks about her lover ans ideal man his face kept switching and shifting like jon’s did in mel visions..
And i cannot believe that i forget the exact quote and where it is used but you can find it in westeros.org i believe..ans it must be from ADwD So i will also look for that quote.
I can’t wait for Jaime v. Cersei next year. And also for LF to finally get killed, hopefully by one of the Stark ladies. And for Bran to come home. And… for everything, really!
Maybe. But then I read like 200 other books. Then I picked up ACOK at the airport and read a few chapters, and couldn’t even remember the basics, let alone details like possible theories surrounding Jon’s mother. Then I put the book away until my next flight. Repeat for two years until I was finished. Then another multi year, hundreds of books gap.
Hoyti Von Totiy,
Yes, that’s exactly how I see things.
Bran will probably side with Jon.
THE KIT IN THE NORTH!
The R+L=J reveal was really well done imo. The whole Tower-KITN section was great.
I’m disappointed they didn’t submit this episode for writing. I thought it was better written than 9.
I wouldn’t be surprised if next season, Littlefinger and/or Sansa start looking into Jon’s parentage to weaken his position in the north. That’s the simplest way to make it public. And hopefully Bran and Howland Reed will side with Jon and help him. I’m curious if Arya will make it to Winterfell. I imagine she’d support Jon too.
dragonbringer:
Perhaps its this
‘Dany folded her hands together. “Words are wind, even words like love and peace. I put more trust in deeds. In my Seven Kingdoms, knights go on quests to prove themselves worthy of the maiden that they love. They seek for magic swords, for chests of gold, for crowns stolen from a dragon’s hoard.”
Hizdahr arched an eyebrow. “The only dragons that I know are yours, and magic swords are even scarcer.”
Hizdahr looked thoughtful. “Ninety days and ninety nights without a corpse, and on the ninety-first we wed?”
“Perhaps,” said Dany, with a coy look. “Though young girls have been known to be fickle. I may still want a magic sword.”
Its interesting that a few chapters after this we have Jon’s dream
Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.
Co-incidence? I think not
BranTheBlessed,
No it was not coincidence at all.
Although the relevant quote about those magical sword is given in jeor and jon conversations in AGOt.
But the thing iam referring to is Jon’s face shifting to man and wolf and man again ..and dany dreams of the same thing the man behind the screen …i seriously cant believe I forget from where the line exists
Sansa isn’t going to betray Jon. People seem to be forgetting the series is almost over. We’re closer to the end right now than we are to the middle of season 5 when Sansa married Ramsay. The final alliances are very nearly set. Next season will be about Daenerys conquering King’s Landing, Jaime deciding whether he wants to go down with Cersei or kill her before she decides to burn the entire city, some resolution to Euron wanting to kill Yara and Theon and tame Daenerys and control her dragons himself, figuring out what Sam finds out, and brokering some alliance with the north. The storyline in the north will be Bran, Arya, the Brotherhood, and Brienne making their way to Winterfell for everyone to team up, Jon finding out his true parentage, and brokering a deal with Daenerys. Those are your human bad guys. Euron and Cersei. I’m not sure they even have time to bring back Randyll Tarly.
The final season will be several episodes of all-out war with the Army of the Dead, with Daenerys and Jon fighting together while Sam and Bran figure out what magic is required to finally defeat the Night King. There will be no more human bad guys.
There is no time for split loyalty in the north. Sansa can worry about her place in the world when this is all over in some follow-on series that Martin’s estate licenses someone else to write after he dies. Littlefinger can get on board or he can die. His plan was solid and his ambition great, but timing and luck can do you in. He spent all his time undermining the Lannisters, but that only helps Daenerys, Cersei might burn King’s Landing anyway, and he’ll see, along with everyone else in the North, the true threat pretty soon. Even Littlefinger will stop caring about the Iron Throne when he sees the Army of the Dead, at least until after they’re done. There has never been more chaos for him to climb a ladder through, and this is the only feasible war that might actually kill both Jon and Daenerys. The he can marry Sansa and take the Iron Throne when the next writer writes the aftermath series.
.
I know it’s asking a lot, but for the sake of the show… especially in its end stages… I sincerely hope beyond hope he does more than 3. Never mind the quality and artistic slant, there was a palpable cohesiveness/fluidity in just those last two episodes that’s been missing from the series since the get-go. I truly believe Sapochnik elevated the show to a whole other level.
I can see casual viewers might not have yet comprehended the particulars of the ToJ, but I think they get the general meaning and importance (that Jon is not really Ned’s bastard). I think things will be made clearer next season. It was an artistic way of dropping that bomb without being awkwardly expositional. I’m sure details will follow.
I don’t believe Aerys is Jon’s father. He plays no role in the legendary story of Lyanna, and it would be totally inconsistent and out of left field to insert such a contrivance.
To the person who posted the flashback video of Robb’s coronation in the woods: Did you notice something incredibly relevant to present and future events? —-> “It was the dragons we bowed to…”
Damn. I completely forgot about that. Thank you for posting the video. I think that portends even more for a Jon + Dany alliance.
I don’t agree that the scene as played out on-screen showed a look of Sansa disappointment. I think it’s clear she’s reveling in all the support for Jon until she sees LF hulking in the corner. She KNOWS not to trust him. He sold her to the Bolton’s! If she betrays Jon with him, it will totally go against her character arc and not make any sense. She’s supposed to be smarter and more mature than that because of all she’s been through. An alliance with LF against Jon would be more of a self-betrayal than anything else. It just makes no sense whatsoever to ally with such known evil out of petty jealousy. Jon is destined to lead the war against the WW (or so the show indicates), and being named the KitN is integral to that. I’d never find a Sansa betrayal believable at this point.
I also can’t believe people are still fussed about the timelines. It’s obvious the show’s writers are assuming the audience is intelligent enough to delineate the elapsed time necessary, and that they don’t need to caption those scenes with “3 months later,” or “2 weeks later,” or “after the arrival of a raven.” I mean, c’mon. SMH.
Geralt of Rivia,
BranTheBlessed,
I found the quote
The reason his face remains being a shifting shadow is well he is shifting from man to wolf and wolf to man
Crap, I forgot about Jorah even. He has to come back at some point next season and maybe the cure to Grayscale holds some importance. There will be plenty of drama in the north. Convincing those houses to fight alongside wildlings required a battle. Now imagine what it will take to convince the Glovers, Mormonts, and Tallharts that an alliance with Yara and Theon Greyjoy is okay. How will Jorah himself even feel about his queen forming a pact with his most ancient enemies?
You should believe it. In fact, many of the reviews up above note it as a distraction. The show maintains a reasonable relation between Westeros-distance and show-time around 90% of the time. The other 10% consists of very incongruous elements that for some viewers very jarring. They should only be included if necessary…and in the case of Varys, it was clearly not. Just because it doesn’t bother you doesn’t mean that other people find it as annoying as fingernails on chalkboards.
It’s not that we aren’t “intelligent enough” to solve these puzzles. Rather, it is that our minds get ripped out of the enjoyment of the moment because we have to solve them. You may be able to glide over it with a “whatever”. We can’t. The same is true of any other plot hole. The moment they happen, I am no longer in the show, but outside it, viewing it as a piece of art rather than experiencing it. And that is not where I want to be.
Adam,
Well those houses just now entered into a pact with who they thought as enemies for thousands of years. .
So I don’t see how there will be problem..
Jorah must feel about how his house and his niece( I believe ) will feel about him and recieve him..but luckily he is on the side of a dragon Queen
Vlad the Impaler,
OBVIOUSLY Varys BROUGHT ships from Dorne. Why did he go and comeback then. Think a little harder 😉
Pau,
She wont betray him
LF will whisper in her ear, and she may seem to be falling for it but then she will turn on LF.
Yeah, this is one possible way for Jon’s parentage to get revealed. LF digging into that, with Sansa reluctantly helping him. Maybe this is the reason the writers seem to be going the “sibling tension” way (based on the interviews of the actors and writers)? The North hates Rhaegar because his “abduction” of Lyanna caused the death of the warden of the North/Lord of WF and his heir (Ned’s father and eldest brother). They wouldn’t want a KitN who’s the product of that “horrible crime”. However, in the end Howland Reed and/or Bran might reveal that Rhaegar actually didn’t abduct Lyanna but protected her (from the Mad King?) and that they were in love and got married. Hence, it will be revealed that Jon’s claim to the KitN throne may be weaker (since he’s not Ned’s son) but he’s actually the rightful heir to the IT. Then LF’s ploy will bite him in the ass (he wanted that iron throne!). (tinfoil hat on, obviously)
I understand why the writers would want to create some drama in the north in maybe the first half of the season while the queens duel in the south. I don’t think the wall will fall in the 1st few episodes; hence, they need for the north characters to be busy with something – so conflict/tension it is (through the machinations of LF).
Yes! 52,850 now, so I’d say that’s staying, as well. BoB is still 10 with over 108,000 votes, with all other episodes having less than 50,000 ratings ever. Isn’t it insane that we got the two best-rated episodes of such an epically awesome show back-to-back? Even though BoB wasn’t my favorite overall, I can certainly appreciate its awesome moments.
Yes, it felt like Christmas in June. I absolutely love, love, love these last 2 episodes!
.
How in the world did you infer this from my post?
Time jumps in movies and TV shows are not something new. It’s called a device. It merely makes sense that Varys went to Dorne and met back with the fleet after time enough for Dany to outfit the ships with dragon-heads. That alone insinuates a sensible time interval. Because you cannot imagine a time period elapses between Varys departure, the arrival in Slaver’s Bay of the Masters, their (who knows how long?) bombardment of the city, Dany’s return, the arranged parlay with the Masters, their meeting and Dany’s and the dragon’s retributions, the aftermath and city cleanup, the appointed governing, the Greyjoy’s arrival with their fleet, and the new outfitting of her accumulated fleet… certainly does not insinuate a plot hole.
Yes, yes, yes, please! Certainly these were by far my top four episodes this season.
Really? I thought the wildfire was at least more subtle than Olly, and some were still shocked by that last season. I haven’t had a chance to talk with my less obsessive friends lately, though.
Nadia,
My daughter is unsullied and she had no problem following TOJ, maybe it depends on how invested the “casual” viewer is in the show. I know my daughter would not like being called “casual.”….lol.
Elizabeth,
Watched the show with 6 unsullied friends.
While some were thinking about wildfire, no one saw the entire sept blowing up.
Ginevra,
love this!
Elizabeth,
I just had to explain the TOJ to someone.
Well actually, he told me that the baby was jon, son of Lyanna and Raeghar (so he got that part), but he thought Raeghar was the mad king. LOL
So I just had to explain the family tree a bit, and the war partially started because of Lyanna blabla.
its fun.
Im the “go to” person for all my cousins and friends when it comes to GOT. and I get so excited to explain things hahahaha.
YES I AM AN ADULT
We’re having a discussion here on the homefront. We know Mountain prevented Tommen from attending the sept trial. Does anyone recall Mountain leaving Tommen before the blast, presumably to meet Cersei for their torture play date? Did Cersei leave Tommen unattended hoping he’d do himself in? It seems she had planned ahead to take the crown considering the newly designed one that she happened to have in her jewelry stash.
Sam,
They still named him KITN even if he’s a bastard, so I assume he’ll end up keeping the title (especially if everyone finds out that LF betrayed Ned). Bran will probably help Jon imo, since they need a leader to fight against the WW. I think the Northern storyline will consist of LF scheming against Jon and Jon trying to prepare for the Long Night, making peace between the North and Wildlings, etc.
And the beautiful downtrodden princess, ending up the victor and Queen in the end is not?
Vlad the Impaler,
You’re entitled to your opinion – as long as you don’t belittle people who have a different opinion (and I’m not accusing you of doing so). I liked it – and I’m glad Daenerys has left Essos at long last. Anyway, I long ago decided to go my own sweet way and like (or dislike) what I like/dislike and let other folk like or dislike what they like/dislike
Now this is more general and not just addressing Vlad, I think Lena Headey manages to convey “mad, bad and dangerous to know” without opening her mouth. She could have been a success back in the days of silent film I feel. Art Parkinson was able to show his acting chops in his albeit short stint on GoT this year.
Not addressed to anyone in particular, but to be fair, D&D aren’t the first to use varying timelines. There may be other writers/playwrights who have done so but Willy Wobbeweapon (I didn’t invent that name – I saw it on the Res Historica website) used “double time” in Othello.
Vlad the Impaler,
You are being obtuse. Exactly how hard is it for you to grasp the concept that the timelines are NOT all synched up? Seriously, they dont show the scenes in sequential order.
Cersie blows up the sept in the beginning of the episode, but it is still smoking when Jaimie get there at the end of the episode. but they showed Varys in Dorne, then back in Essos. Clearly they showed things out of order and THATS OK.
Dany’s fleet is made up of the 100 ships she got from Theon and Yara, the Slavers ships, and ships from Dorne and High Garden. You can see the sails.
it isnt a jetpack, its non-sequencial pacing. Most people can figure that out on thier own……………
I watch with a bunch of Unsullied and they all got it. Oh well.
Sam,
Flayed Potatoes,
Where would LF/ Sansa find any clues? Unless something turns up in the crypts, I had never given much credence to that theory. Or LF knows that Howland Reed was with Ned when they went south?
I don’t think Sansa will be part of any plotting though. It might look that way for a couple of episodes, but she will end up outplaying LF, surely that has got to be her arc next season? With potentially the Hound, BwB, Brianne, Pod all headed north, it should be pretty interesting next season.
I would have liked to see Jon and Sansa consolidate the River lands and the Vale behind them, no idea how likely it is.
Dee Stark,
LOL.
Welcome to the GOT expert club!!!
That’s true but as the old saying goes “Truth is stranger than fiction”. Not fantasy, but Queen Elizabeth I (of England) was kept a prisoner for much of her younger days (sorry if you know this already – it is pretty well known in the UK at least) and had a dodgy uncle (well step-uncle) in Thomas Seymour and she became one of the most savvy rulers England ever had.
Edit: In my earlier post which it is now too late to edit I should have said that Art Parkinson was able to show his acting chops “without speaking” much as I said Lena Headey was able to do.
You don’t understand what the problem was: it was that Varys teleported from Dorne back to Dany. Since Dorne happened after the Sept was destroyed, then this implies that the Dany scene must occur a month or more afterwards even that. Yet it was paired with Cersei crowning scene, which occurred very soon after the Sept scene. So yes, you can mind-bend your way into a “logical” plot by assuming that despite them being thematically linked and presented as near simultaneous, the Dany and Cersei scenes that finished the season actually occurred many weeks or even months apart. But that is God-awful writing, and entirely unnecessary just so that Varys and a few Dornish ships can appear briefly in a group shot.
Not all time inconsistencies are plot holes, but that doesn’t stop them from being annoying even if you can “solve” them if you bend the data to the extreme. This is precisely because the necessity to solve them grips some of us, and destroys our enjoyment of the moment. I don’t want to be thinking “wtf, how did Varys get there? was there some kind of time jump?”. I just want to enjoy it as it is.
Note that this particular jump was pretty bad, because it is almost certainly going to imply that a lot of stuff that happens in S7E01 and E02 will occur BEFORE the final scene of S6! This opens up the possibility of true plot holes arising….and all for nothing really.
Chad Brick,
Jeez, how do you guys get through, well, most TV shows or movies (or plays, theatre, books)? There’s a breakfast scene in Synedoche, New York that spans six months in thirty seconds (without teling the viewer). Othello‘s third act rips to the end in the same manner. (encouraging reams of essays on solving its timing and event placement.) The first episode of this very show did the same thing and each chapter of the books were oddly timed and spaced out too (just look at trying to solve AFFC and ADWD.)
“Yet it was paired with Cersei crowning scene, which occurred very soon after the Sept scene”
You don’t know this. Because smoke is still billowing? It’ll probably keep blowing from that smoking hole for weeks.
My coworkers were 2/2 in picking it out, but I must say, it was pretty subtle the way the show presented it. I wouldn’t be surprised if a fair number of people only picked up the “mother” half of the equation.
Dee Stark,
You know your stuff ahaha 😛
Chad Brick,
Most Unsullied I know only picked out the mother part. A reference 16 episodes ago is too far away for casual audiences.
ghost of winterfell,
Yes, I also think that LF will try to string Sansa along but all the while, she’s playing him. That will be sweet revenge. RW has been avenged. Ned’s beheading, not yet. It’s time for that to happen and LF wouldn’t know it coming.
Vlad the Impaler,
Alternatively, people without lazy minds work out that several weeks elapsed in this episode. Space = Time, after all.
Halfman,
Lol..
No it is too thats why see both of them as protagonists of the story..
A question for book readers (and non-book readers as well):
Do you think Cersei is more like:
a) Maegor I. the Cruel – A stern and bad-tempered king who ruled through fear and wanted to harshly deal with Faith Militant, which included unleashing Balerion on the city sept, personaly executing those who didn’t disagree with him (such as his Grand Maester), spending most of his life in wars against the Faith and returning with thousands of skulls, which supposedly belonged to them (although most likey not). His actions resulted in entire kingdom secretly planning a rebellion against him by putting his nephew on the Throne, which Maegor was well aware of, but commited suicide (or was assassinated) before it could actually begin.
b) Aerys II. the Mad King – A mentally unstable and paranoid king, who had voices in his head, saw enemies lurking in every corner and wanted to deal with them, which included wiping out House Darklyn of Duskendale, burning Rickard Stark alive, strangling Brandon Stark, exiling one of his Hands and burning the other one and secretly planning to burn entire city with wildfire. His actions resulted in half of the kingdom entering into open rebellion, during which he was killed by Jaime Lannister.
Finally got to watch the episode, with the wonky internet connection I’ve got here – it’s been frustrating with all kinds of madness going on: Brexit aftermath, Euro2016 footy (Áfar Ísland!!!), Wimbledon, and GoT season finale!
I loved this episode! It wasn’t perfect but (almost too) neatly tied up S6 stories and set up S7.
First things first: DANY IS SAILING TO WESTEROS!!! Thank the gods, old and new, red and drowned!!!
And Mad Queen Cersei! Baby Bear Mormont and King in the North! Tower of Joy! Frey pies!
Big shout out to the music and soundscapes! I love, love, loved Ramin Diawadi’s music on this episode. What a genius! And two things that caught my ear on the sound thing: the expectant hush, scraping of chairs, some coughs while awaiting for the trial to begin; and the Lannister music and the sound of fires crackling in the Throne Room at Cersei’s coronation.
I’ll mention my only major nitpick here, before I’ll focus on the positives in the next post.
I don’t usually go in for “jetpack” nitpicking, but seeing Varys on Dany’s ship did give me a jolt. He was in Dorne, I thought he’d stay there and prepare Dany’s landing, so I was taken aback to see him on the ship with Dany – Dany hadn’t even ever met him before the final scene! It just feels like there’s a scene missing in between. It feels like a continuity error, or something finished on the cutting room floor. A clunk in an otherwise great, beautiful scene – oooh, I loooved how Drogon flew amongs the ships, his wings splashing water! That’s some serious CGI.
Thoughts please…
Dany survived the flames and birthed the 3 dragons and got a small following, later she survived the flames in front of all? the Dalthraki this giving her a VERY large following.
I suspect we may see something similar with Jon, like he is killed again and reanimated but this time in front of a large number of witnesses solidifying his following and power.
Anyone else think this is a legit possibility or am I sniffing too much glue?
I’m still suspicious of Sansa but I didn’t find her looks to LF to be saddened about Jon being KITN, she seemed to give the “you creep me out dude” look to LF. Tho I do wonder if LF’s mind games are having an influence on her, not entirely sure what his big plan is either or how it would lead to him on the Iron Throne.
ghost of winterfell,
I think the Vale is already behind Jon/Sansa. Royce and the Vale generals declared for Jon as KITN.
LF has spies. There’s always a possibility. All he needs is a bit of info to start rumors that Jon isn’t Ned’s son.
It’s really funny how so many “little things” we book readers take for granted, get missed. Course it helps my daughter that she rewatches every year before the new season starts…lol.
Lord Parramandas,
Why not both? 😛
Yes when Tommen is staring out the window after the sept has blown up you see the Mountain step out the door behind him. The next scene of him is where he jumps and at the beginning of this scene the servant who had dressed him says ‘I’m so sorry my lord’ or something similar and steps out of the room too.
It’s when Tommen hears the doors shut he takes off his crown.
I can’t exactly imagine the Mountain talking him down or having the emotional intelligence to try and stop him and I also don’t think it was purposefully done in that Cersei wanted him to do himself in.
I imagine she intended telling him how he was all she loved in the world and how he would get over Marg eventually and she would help him rule etc. I was already dreading these long scenes of Tommen being petulant and Cersei trying to win him round so got a nice shock when it ended so briefly!
It is fun when you have to clarify details. I don’t know many unsullied, but the few I know really got the gist of it, just missed little details so I like being the “go to” person also…:)
The first episode did not do this. The prologue was entirely disconnected from all other events. It could have, and probably did, occur months before everything else. There is nothing wrong with time-jumping or twisting inherently (AFFC/ADWD/TWOW does this on purpose, and arguably Othello as well*), but it has to be handled with care and purpose, not random. Were we really supposed to think “This pair of complementary Cersei and Dany scenes actually occurred months apart”? Are we really supposed to worry that a lot of stuff from next season will occur before the last scene from this one? Of course not. So why make it an issue, just to add one more body to a group photo?
* More likely, Othello was just a screw up. Multiple revisions, multiple editors, etc. Even Shakespeare himself was not perfect. You really have to dig into the details to even perceive the short-time version in any case Most people perceive it weeks, not days, which makes more sense and is consistent with the overall story.
Also – I think we are to interpret that it has been some time later when Cersei is crowned. The sept is still smoking but that would take days at least and I’m sure the self-appointed queen could order a smith to prepare a crown for her in a matter of hours if required – I don’t think it was sitting in her jewelry stash waiting to go…
O.T.
Rating for Episode 10 == 8.89 million!!
Highest so far!
http://www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/showbuzzdailys-top-150-sunday-cable-originals-network-finals-6-26-2016.html
Tsiar,
Amazing catch! Love this film, and it has to be inspired by that.
Flayed Potatoes,
That will only put a serious hole in his aim as becoming king of westeros..revealing he is not Ned son only to be revealed as rhaegar and lyannaa’s..
Remember jon is the one who looks most like Ned not even his trueborn sons didn’t look like Ned the way jon did ..
And like you said all people are behind jon ..so no one will care about what LF says especially Royce..
Lord Parramandas,
aerys ..
AFFC’s only interesting because of cersei’ s chapters where you can see how paranoid she becomes and sees enemeies every where and every decision she makes to stop her enemies somehow backfiring on her..
All the while she is thinking she is female tywin
Tim of House Deddings,
omg!!! YES!
that’s hugeeeeeee
Daeryssa,
Yes, it was a rather shocking yet elegant way to eliminate the need for several episodes of teen angst, lol. Thanks for your insight!
Generally, several weeks occur in every episode. That is the show’s pace, along with more or less one year Westeros-time per season. 9 times out of 10, things line up with this amount of time, and reasonable travel distances for such time. And then there are the other 10%, which do not. Sam’s absurdly slow travels and the Varys and Littlefinger jetpacking were the big standouts this season.
More detailed thoughts.
Sam must find something important in the Citadel in Oldtown. Why else include those scenes? BTW, I loved the Oldtown CGI lanndscape, it looked almost just as I had pictured it in my mind. And the library! Wow! I could smell the musty tomes, dust motes playing in the rays of light… It reminded me of my Alma Mater’s old main library, with the rotunda and the stories and stories of bookshelves. Ah, good times… And Sam seems awed, happy but not quite happy. His welcome to the Citadel wasn’t very warm (those academics in their ivory towers, eh?) and what about Gilly and little Sam? We’ll see next season.
Dorne made a brief appearance. Thank the gods, Lady Olenna shut up the Sand Snakes. Vengeance, fire and blood, Dorne and what’s left of the Tyrells are with Dany and against the Lannisters. Set up for S7.
Uncle Benjen confirms the magic ward in the Wall. The dead cannot pass. Bran hugs a weirwood tree and visions ToJ, so we don’t get to see if his “mark” from the Night’s King would allow the NK and the army of the dead pass the Wall after Bran does it. We’ll have to wait until S7.
Missing: a couple of minor storylines. Sandor and the Brotherhood without Banners, and Brienne and Pod. They’re all in the Riverlands, heading north, so maybe they’ll hook up with each other and Arya in S7. Mel might also meet them, Jon Snow send her south…
Chad Brick,
mayb They did that for Sam to space things out rather then have his story just finish in two episodes. Whats the big deal. Maybe they stopped at motels a lot because they have a baby.
You guys are too much
Tim of House Deddings,
Yessssss!!
I could see Mel and Ayra hooking up with the BwB and heading north to fight the army of the dead.
Also could see tension when Mel goes North and the BwB refusing to let her be harmed.
Me, too. I didn’t notice any of what the actors and writers were talking about. But maybe it’s because I was still feeling very high from the TOJ scene. So it’s likely I wasn’t primed to notice anything unpleasant in that scene. 🙂 I’m very curious though why they emphasized that in those videos. They could have talked about the implication of Jon being KitN in the Great War to come. But no, they talked at length instead about the “conflict/tension” between the siblings. Some here rationalized that perhaps they wanted to throw the audience off. But why do that? So my guess, there is indeed tension (which LF will help fan) and that’s what we can expect to get played out next season.
Tim of House Deddings,
Almost 9million ..omg
I know it will reach new heights but not that height ..
Tim of House Deddings,
YAYY BEST SHOW EVEEER
dragonbringer,
Not sure if I like this pairing but depends on execution and how believeable it will be. But yeah we got foreshadowing for it. The thing is we got 13 episode and Daeny Cersei and Euron to deal with. Jon LF and NK.
Ive got a question too which will expose my clear lack of knowledge and I bow to your superior wisdom on this…
If Jon is TPTWP would he have to plunge his sword into a woman he loves to create lightbringer?
And if so Could it possibly be Sansa? Perhaps Mel?
Expand my knowledge please!
SarahT,
Lyanna is shown with very dark hair, so he might have gotten it from her
Nadia,
Yes, my sister who has watched the show since season 1 is/was baffled- all the pieces are there but they are scattered over multiple episodes.
In the pilot you had Ned and Robert’s conversation in the crypt, but your casual viewer, even if they recall that Ned and Robert had a conversation have no recollection whatsoever of the substance. A big part of that is the fault of the show runners, they will reveal important information in conversations – but buried outside of the greater context. So in the pilot you learned that Robert loved Ned’s sister, who died young and that Robert killed someone over her. In other episodes you learn that he has a murderous obsession with the Targaryens, but it’s hazy, why? A threat? yes, but is it more personal than that?
You meet Dany and Viserys and you know they see Robert as the Usurper, but little else. Much later you hear Selmy tell Dany about her brother, but it’s so far removed form when you hear anyone else mention Rhaeger the casual viewer can’t connect the dots because they really have no idea there are dots to be connected.
Then there is Sansa’s conversation with LF in the WF crypts, the sullied know what its about, to the unsullied the conversation has no greater importance than the fact that LF and Sansa are talking about the past- what they are specifically talking about is seemingly unimportant.
The show runners were dead set against flash backs, but I think this material absolutely cried out for flashbacks- if you SAW Rhaegar run off with Lynna, if you saw Roberts’ reaction, if you saw Robert ultimately kill Rhaeger, if you saw Rhaeger walking the streets of KL singing as Selmy to Dany about that, you could have placed those scenes exactly where D&D close conversational exposition instead, and then the TOJ reveal in Episode 10 would have been understood immediately by everyone, not just book readers.
Instead the way they did it important information is simply scattered, your casual viewer has no idea that the man Robert “kills every night” in his dreams is the same man that Selmy says would sing to the people. I’ve heard people who are confused: – if Jaime is the kingslayer who killed the mad king, then who did Robert kill? Or were they both responsible and Jaime was blamed more since he was sworn to protect the King?
jpwf,
People need to pay attention and not play with their phones or something while watching hahaha
jk
Flayed Potatoes,
He’s son of Rhaegar Targaryen and the one is hated in the North. Once they find out, he’ll resign and leave the North. Northerners wouldn’t allow him to rule over North while being his son. Thanks to him Lyanna was kidnapped, raped at least according to official story and Rickard and Brandon Stark killed in King’s Landing by his father.
Vlad the Impaler
I didn’t mind your take on the show, I thought you made some good points Its when you started to insult other viewers that gave me pause. Just say’n
Strong women rock! THIS is why you are awesome:)
Halfman
Sorry for quoting you again but u have to say this ..
I say that RLJ is what made me to go to forums and participate in forums..and you think iam throwing shit against him..
I was using that hidden prince as another point adding to the confirmation of the theory ..
And like you mention dany already seems to have a big role with lost princess ..
Its these two that actually made me believe that story is about those children
More thoughts.
Meereen: How smart is it to leave your spurned ex-lover, a sellsword, in charge? Hopefully we’ll never know because Dany has now LEFT MEEREEN and is SAILING FOR WESTEROS!!! YAY!!!
I loved Tyrion’s and Dany’s “chat” scene. Loved how they sat side by side on the side steps, away from the high, imposing throne, like any young travellers abroad. A small, intimate moment of both of them being ordinary people in the middle of extraordinary times, before the war/conquest they both know is coming. It was a very human moment.
Oh, the gods how I cheered when the Ironborn, Dany & co., the Unsullied, the Dothraki sailed! I loved the dragons, great CGI. Especially Drogon splashing the water with his wings.
Wait, didn’t the show jump the shark last year? Didn’t “true ASIOAF fans” swore that they would stop watching this D&D fanfiction? Apparently there are more and more brainwashed people…
Just kidding! Amazing news!
jpwf,
I think it has to be vague and scattered.
What happened in the rebellion is history, people aren’t going to have long chats about it or contemplate why Robert was so bloodthirsty towards the targaryans 20 years later. all the people would care about the war is that it happened and the results. I think it would have been awkward film to go into detail too much, I like the way the story has been told.
I like that it’s scattered and incomplete, it’s more realistic and makes people pay attention to the details.
My step-sister does that. And then she cannot remember any of the side characters from previous seasons. A great way to watch the show…
Or read the books, there is time between seasons, or re-watch the episodes, so many ways to keep up…lol….jk. But seriously, a lot of viewers aren’t hard core GOT fans like we are and we have to admit that….:)
jpwf,
Robert speaks with ned about what rhaegar did to his sister
Bran tells the story again to the osha in the crypts
Jorah and barristan talking about rhaegar in astopor .
Oberyn telling rhaegar left his sister for another girl..
These things you forget to mention…although i agree that show didnot get into rhaegar that much especially in regards with dany ans how much ahe resembles him..
Geralt of Rivia,
People are really over exaggerating the hate towards rhaegar ..
Rhaegar was never hated by anyone other than robert..
And even still he is lyanna’s son ..
LF has made his personal end game desires pretty clear. I see him utterly rejected by Sansa, then trying to woo Dany and getting a BBQ out of the deal. 😀
Then again, I know nothing.
The logic of this approach doesn’t make sense to me either. If we pretend LF was serious in saying that he wants the Iron Throne and wants Sansa by his side, how does creating conflict with Jon accomplish that? Wouldn’t it be easier to use him as an ally (as LF has done with every other House before)? This conflict approach doesn’t make sense (strategically).
Side note, Sophie is in Madrid doing interviews and promotion for Game of Thrones.
Tidbits:
-She starts filming in September in Belfast.
-Says Sansa doesn’t want the Iron Throne, she want to be Queen in the North.
-Thinks Sansa is a ‘stronger’ (emotionally and/or mentally) character than Jon (and no, she didn’t say it in a ‘rival’ way. Almost felt like she was saying she could convince him to do things).
-Says she doesn’t know what’s going to happen, they don’t tell her (or sometimes, they (D&D) purposely lie to them about their stories).
-Says GoT is harder to film/do then she initially thought it would be.
Pretty standard stuff I suppose (except for the first few tidbits). She’s also sporting her blonde hair, which is weird to see. She kind of looks like Natalie Dormer with it.
dragonbringer,
In the books you know that Ned thinks of Rhaegar with no apparent ill will- which would be exceedingly odd if Robert’s version of events was true, but you have no way of knowing that in the show- in the show you have LF seemingly being amused when Sansa recounts Roberts’ version of events after LF tells Sansa about the Tourney at Harranhal – to the book reader its confirmation that Rhaegar did not kidnap and rape Lyanna- but to a non-book reader LF’s reaction could mean anything from, ” gee Sansa why do you dwell on the negative” to “Really? Well that puts a damper on this conversation” What he DOESN’T do is contradict/correct her he doesn’t even say, “That’s not what I heard”- if you are a book reader that’s what you think LF is THINKING, but if you are not a book reader there really is little reason to interpret LF’s reaction that way.
Huh, that didn’t even come to mind when I saw the scene. I’d thought earlier how he arrived and left Meereen without meeting her, but when I saw him on the ship all I could think was how we were going to be reading comments about how he was there so quickly. I guess they ran out of time for that encounter eh. I’m sure we can all imagine how it went down but it would have been entertaining to watch. I reckon most of her reluctance would be quelled by the fact that he was the one that initially started Tyrion on his trip to her, aided the efforts against the Harpies/Masters and brought her the contingent from Westeros. All of that along with Tyrion’s word would allow her to forgive him for his part of spying on her using Jorah quicker that she did Jorah.
Vlad the Impaler,
Westeros.org is calling your name. Please go, most people here like the show.
Geralt of Rivia,
That’s the attitude iam going with and looked for as well..
There are lots of foreshadowings that can’t be ignored just as fan theories or shippings..so one must acknowledge the possibility of that happening ..
And put our trust in writers that if that is where the story is going they will make that work ..
My husband is unsullied also and his first words were, “he’s still got Stark blood running through his veins, just not Ned’s.” You are so right!
Chad Brick,
Agree with the last part. Don’t mind the jumping around myself, but the beginning of next season could be disastrous if they are not careful. Easy enough to let 2/3 months pass before Dany arrives/Cersei settles in as ruler etc.
dragonbringer,
Rhaegar is hated in the North because they believe he kidnapped and raped her. Sansa said it herself and that’s what they learned. Same with wildlings and hatred for them. Lyanna Mormont mentioned Ned’s Stark son blood runs through his veins and this is important because Lyanna has no rights and of course affair with Rhaegar that started the war. This or or some other stupidity and Jon will be hated too. King in the North is a dangerous title and Benioff mentioned Jon is in dangerous position with LF aiming at him.
RosanaZugey,
She is right.
Interesting bit about producers lying to them and not knowing. That means videos behind the scenes ćould be only to hype their tension. She is right and more skilled in politics than Jon and could influence him. He’s a soldier and not politician. Maybe once Jon learns about his parentage he might even feel like he shouldn’t be King and not to mention Northerners. His parentage could create problems in the North.
Or, LF would weasel his way into Jon’s circle (“keep your enemies close” kind of thing) and Sansa will warn him. “You don’t know him!” And then, Jon will not listen to her. And then… Oh wait, they’ve done this sh*t already. 🙂
RosanaZugey,
The speculation that they will start the filming later this year seems to be correct?
I really wish Sophie would stop commenting about Jon.
Dame of Mercia,
Yes I do. I am British and History was my favourite subject at school. Yes truth is often stranger than fiction. I just think whatever the end game and whoever is the victor in the end….if there is one….will be a disappointment to someone. Can’t win them all lol.
If your concern about fast travel could be explained by an Afterschool Special style “3 Weeks Later” subtitle.. it isn’t lazy writing, it’s lazy watching.
Remember the words that were written to him though regarding Baratheons, “The seed is strong.” The Stark line is ancient, and as we know (at least in the books), very strong and full of magics itself. Jon is apparently rather special and his Stark blood is strong so it can be accepted that he’s ‘dark of hair.’
Why? We can make plenty of comments about him, but she can’t?
I’ve often wondered how LF will manipulate Sansa and others once (if) he confirms R+L=J? I wonder if he already knows (in the show)? Of course, such a disclosure will be tempered (or bolstered) by the imminent invasion from the east (Dany) and from the north (WWs).
Geralt of Rivia,
Winter is here. Seriously doubt that they are going to care if Rhaegar’s sperm contributed to the creation of their leader. These are times of war and at times of war you disregard unimportant things. They chose him as a Snow, they know he was raised by Ned. If not Jon, who the hell is going to lead them against the Others? Jon is still a Stark, he is a as much a Stark as the other kids. Lyanna and Ned were full siblings. And may I remind everyone that it is likely that the current Starks descend from a bastard? A bastard born to a Lady Stark rather than a Lord Stark? Now if you speak of a time after Spring comes, it still doesn’t matter because it is likely Jon dies anyway.
King’s Landing and Mad Queen Cersei.
I loved how the first KL scenes started. The music, the people getting ready for the trial. No dialogue, just the music and pictures. Brilliant.
It should be noted that Cersei is dressing for war. Not exactly in armour but her “dark queen” dress has metal (armour).
Poor sweet Tommen. When Frankengregor stops him, you know shit’s gonna go down. Marg realises this and tries to tell the High Sparrow (“Fuck the gods, we’ve got to get out!”) but the HS is too hubristic to listen.
Poor Lancel. Paralysed from the waist down, he’s trying to crawl his way to the candle fuses to avert the disaster. (Though, why didn’t he put out the torch?) I loved how the green of wildfire became more and more visible, and finally the shot of the initial wildfire explosion reflected in poor Lancel’s eyes.
KA-BOOM! And Cersei’s smug and happy smile. “I’d burn cities to the ground for you”, she once told Tommen. So poor Tommen knows. The real heartbreak moment was after Tommen looked at the explosions and fire and then took off his crown. His final plunge was a foregone conclusion by then. Poor Tommen. He must’ve felt like a crushing failure. His mother killed his wife and all her family, and most high nobles, and he couldn’t stop it. RIP, sweet Tommen.
Cersei’s coronation was sooo wonderfully dark and menacing, the sound of cracking fires well audible. The surviving minor nobles are hushed, not daring to raise their voices against the terror of Cersei Lannister’s reign. Cersei has no real claim to the throne, she was just the Queen Mother, and after all her children are dead, the only legitimacy she has is “conquest”, or the massacre of most high lords at the sept, and the fear it inspires.
Jaime enters through a side door, stands apart in the gallery. He’s not a happy bunny. His last child is dead and his sister/lover has done something he killed a king to prevent, something that kind of ruined the rest of his life. And now his own sister has done it. Please, please, please, let this be the beginning of the break up for Jaime!
Vlad the Impaler,
If you don’t pay attention not the show’s fault. Daenerys fleet is all accounted for: Greyjoy’s fleet, Slaver’s fleet (Dany burnt only one ship on account of Tyrion’s advice), Tyrell’s fleet (Tyrell’s are the second richest family in Westeros, must have a large fleet) and Martell’s fleet. That adds up.
Cersei and Jamie now have twin nicknames. King and Queen slayers.
I look forward to when Jon finds out he’s Rhaegar’s not Ned’s, if only because I think it would provide Kit with a tremendous moment to act out. So much of his identity is wrapped up in being NED’s son, that I imagine it will be heartbreaking for him to find out that he’s not. So very glad Sansa told him, “You’re a Stark to me.” I imagine that line will come up again when he finds out.
His parentage could create problems. I can see that. I can also it being a counter to the other Targaryen in King’s Landing. Like, hey, we don’t have to follow you, we have a Targaryen of our own. But who knows at this point. My speculations are shit.
And yeah, she is right. First part of her answer was that she was not stronger than him physically or with a sword, but emotionally/mentally. And that doesn’t have to be taken as a “bad” thing. Tyrion advices Daenerys because he’s more adept at politics/strategy then she is. Doesn’t make her any less of a character. It just means they ‘compliment’ each other. What she lacks, he doesn’t and vise versa. Same could be said about Jon and Sansa. And technically, she’s not wrong. She did convince him to fight this war (when he wanted to go to Dorne and get a tan), and I think she could probably convince him of other things as well. That’s not a bad thing.
Considering the current monarch has Sansa high on her hitlist, I think he’s fine with a new ruler.
Geralt of Rivia,
Anyone other than sansa we have heard say that .
Sansa or any other stark kids say like that is equal to dany saying Ned is responsible for killing of argon and rhaenys
Ned stark blood still runs through him…he is more similar to ned than Robb bran or rickon ever was
Remember even ned said his blood run through jon
They clearly have no problems Crowning him as king when he was a bastard ..
If people are going to be angry then they should never have crowned a stark as KITN considering where the actions of last KITN lead them
It’s not going to change anything if he is revealed lyanna’s son in terms of him being KITN..
So you guys are just being worrying about nothing if you ask me..
Sansa will kill LF and be on the side of jon..
How come no one is talking about mellisandra leaving and what effect that will have fighting the white walkers. Had she been at the battle of the black water she might have stopped the wild fire with magic. Had she stayed in the north she might help against the walkers…davos has every right to get upset but at the same time it would have been logical to keep her around. She brought Jon to life and at the end of the day it was Stannis who gave the order to burn his daughter.
Second, there was no clear explanation post battle in the north. What happened to the Last Hearth, the Dreadfort or Karhold…why arent the wildlings rewarded….Were there any prisoners….what happened to Harald Kastark…..why isnt jon called Jon Stark lord of Winterfell and KITN, instead of King jon Snow…it makes no sense…the north legitimized him… I also was expecting a greater speech from Lord Manderly…
What happend to Lord Edmure Tully….was supposed to be on his way to Casterly Rock with his wife and son but yet again he is locked away….it just makes no sense. Also, is Jon the king of the Trident?? Does he inherit his brothers titles….if so resqueing edmure and his heir would be paramount to rally the river lands and unite them with the north and the vale.
Now House Baratheon is officially extinct. House Lannister of Kings Landing has just been formed….let ppl know…
I feel like everything was rushed and nothing is clear, fora typical sunday viewer fanoy/girl they wouldnt care…but to us who really read the books , watch the show thee things need to be exeplained.
By that logic, Daenerys should have made Tyrion Dragon food. For being the son of a man who betrayed her family and the brother of the man who killed her Father. Only madmen punish a son for his father’s crimes.
By that logic, the Northerners should have risen up in revolt against the Boltons for killing their King Robb and their kin who died in the Red Wedding. Why go back a generation to Rhaegar?
Jon earned the respect of Northerners mainly because of his strength and valor, not because of how pure his bloodline is. That was the entire point of that King in the North scene.
The characters didn’t see the Bran flashback. Only the audience knows.
Hodors Bastard,
Last season in the crypts when Sansa mentioned how Rhaegar raped and kidnapped Lyanna, he gave her this look like “I don’t think so my dear”. He knows that it was out of lovwe most likely but what else he knows. Bran, Howland Reed and those women (one of them Wylla possibly) knows full story. He would have to search there or heard rumours and sneaking around crypts. Or once Bran will reveal it, he’ll know and then he’ll use it.
September? Yikes. I had a feeling GoT would premiere later next year.
That’s exactly what I thought: that it must be true that they’ll start filming later this year. Because don’t they normally start filming at the end of July/early August? I wonder if that’s because they need colder temperatures or because the season isn’t as long and therefore, doesn’t require as much filming.
Funny you should say that, because she also talked about how she didn’t like that for a year and a half all anyone asked her (and the rest of the cast) was about Jon and if he was alive. Anywho, while you may not like her ‘interpretation’ of Jon, she’s going to have to continue answering questions about him, because they’re in the same storyline. Its inevitable they ask and that she answers. *Shrugs*
Sou,
That LF knows Jon’s parentage is a great theory. Why do you now think it’s incorrect? Wouldn’t LF want to keep that secret since Jon would be another threat to his ascension to the Iron Throne, which LF wants at least ten times as much as he wants Sansa and would eagerly give Sansa up for? I can see LF pushing Sansa toward taking Jon out next season. Jon may become his biggest target.
Sansa was smiling though until she looked at LF who was not declaring Jon KitN like everyone else. I think she looked at LF like that because she was mad that he wasn’t serenading Jon.
Jack Bauer 24,
Or concerned at what he might try and do.
How could people ask her about Jon for a year and a half when there is 10 months between the time of the 5 finale and 6 premeire?
Hey Vlad,
I think when you start by just saying things are too ridiculous and insulting to you and that the producers are tired of the show and that they are getting lazy…that isn’t so much a well-rationed critique of the episode.
I love story building…and it seems like that’s what they were doing after Jon’s resurrection for episodes 3-8 and a lot of people complained about them being slow, boring, filler, etc.
My first review for 10 basically said that the jet packs are ridiculous but I don’t care because they were able to touch on all the story lines and do a bunch of bad-ass stuff and get things stream lined for the final season(s).
Drawing it out wouldn’t really help overall so I suspend disbelief, which is always needed for fantasy and sci-fi shows and movies.
There are choices with the show that I don’t like too…but I generally tolerate jet-packing because it does help keep up the pace in such a vast fantasy world.
Also, this season seemed like a of tonne of effort, across the board from all parties involved, so I’m thinking they weren’t tired and lazy in completing it. They also had to go more off-script than before with GRRM still not done himself.
I am super pleased with what they have been able to do. I love reading but these are massive tomes just like LOTR. I love that I will have an option to binge watch these epic fantasies every 2-4 years whenever I feel like it until I die.
It’s like with my kids who might get two things wrong out of ten…so I ask them to focus on the eight correct instead. It may seem crazy but you actually feel better doing so. Now, my German mother would always focus on the two things I got wrong as a kid so I don’t know how to read into that…but that’s another story.
Perhaps a turn of phrase. Like saying its a “million degrees outside” even though…you know…its not.
SarahT,
Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell, Oberyn’s sister, together they had two kids Aegon (Targ hair) and Rhaenys (brown hair like the Martell’s) so not all Targs have the silvery hair. Daenerys, Viserys and Rhaegar did because their parents were full siblings. Silvery hair and purple eyes were a result of incest and limited gene pool. Like Jon, there have been Targs with dark hair.
I’m still trying to get a feeling for how they (D&D) believe they can complete the story in ~13 hours. That’s just a bit more than a typical season. Thinking back on how long story arcs have taken in the series so far they’re going to have to accelerate things.
I’ve never thought the “Great War” against the NK would be a short, one episode event. I figured it to be several episodes with the living being decimated and pushed back/south until they fully unite to defeat the undead. It doesn’t feel like they can spend a lot of that 13 hours with more of the same 7K struggles.
I’m starting to look at it as a seven hour season seven getting the living pieces in place with Daenerys actually having a rather easy time of it, or should I say “short” time of it. Nobody other than Euron is even thinking about her anymore and they don’t seem aware of or prepared for what she’s bringing with her. I really don’t see a war happening between Daenerys and Jon, especially if they meet and speak. By the time their lines converge we could be at S8 with six episodes left… Just enough time for the Great War to begin, end and have a bittersweet conclusion.
As for Sansa,
I’m not totally sure she was jealous of Jon like Sophie talked about…since I doubt she has scripts for next year yet.
I think she was happy until she looked over to Littlefinger…and she’s worried about dealing with him. He just told her that his endgame is always to be on the Iron Throne with her…and Jon now being KITN doesn’t help that goal.
So…she knows she needs to be careful. I do think that Baelish mentioning Jon being a bastard and only a half-brother to Sansa is an attempt to drive a wedge between them. I also think the the producers constantly putting that in means that it will get to her, at least sub-consciously.
However, like I believe Dee mentioned, I expect when we think she might betray Jon she will actually betray Littlefinger…because that would be poetic in that Littlefinger betrayed Ned after he put confidence in him.
But Jon is King in the North…why would she want to be Queen in the North? She would have to kill Jon to become Queen…
I think if you rewatch the scene you’ll see that she though they were talking about her until she heard the word “bastard” , and then her face change completely. Her look at LF to me said “maybe you’re right, maybe I should be the Queen in the North”
Sansa’s interview in Madrid seems to confirm that
I took her look as one of caution/concern. As if she knows he’s going to start trouble to ruin all of this. Did not, for a moment, think her look was meant as an acknowledgement that he was ‘right’ and that now they should plan and plot against Jon.
I always find it interesting that in all of these debates, people tend to forget (or ignore) what has been previously said/established. You’re one million percent correct: she was JUST smiling and happy for him when they declared him KiTN. But that apparently doesn’t mater because LF looked at her. *Frowns* In the same episode, she calls him a Stark and they argue over who should get Ned and Cat’s room. Prior to that, she makes him a Stark cloak to represent their house and bases her entire recruitment stratgey on North rallying around him because he’s “The son of the last true Warden of the North”.
…but LF gives her a shady look and now, none of that matters. Because all of a sudden she trusts LF (even though she just said she didn’t) and is going to somehow stab Jon in the heart and run off with Petyr to plan and plot evil so they can take over the 7K’s. I mean, good grief. ? I don’t think anyone should be so quick in ascribing to Sansa all of LF’s wants/desires/plots and plans. Those two characters aren’t the same person and the fact that Petyr wants/thinks something doesn’t mean Sansa wants/thinks it too.
Pau,
Sophie cant confirm that because I don’t even think she has scripts for next season yet.
I didn’t take her reaction that way.
She was happy till she look at LF, a look of concern. I KNOW for a fact that LF will try to cause trouble and it will “work” or seem to work at first. And as rhymeswithweak said “I expect when we think she might betray Jon she will actually betray Littlefinger…because that would be poetic in that Littlefinger betrayed Ned after he put confidence in him”
fully agree with that
That’s absolutely the next storyline coming. We won’t be certain whether she’ll actually make that choice in the end, but the setup is there. We’ll likely keep getting setup in Season 7. Choose the light, Sansa. Choose the light.
And how would you explain the smile she gave to Jon AFTER he was declared King in the North? Or why would she offer the lord’s chamber to Jon?
I rewatched the TOJ scene and Lyanna looks a lot like Daeny. Wonder if it was a bit intentional. Also reminds me of Arya a little bit.
BranTheBlessed,
When you have trueborn daughter of your last Warden of the North. Well, Sophie mentioned wanting to be Queen so you can’t have them both. Who knows what LF will do. A lot of Northerners might not be happy about this as Rhaegar’s reputation is far from good in the North.
Pau,
Don’t think killing Jon is on her mind. Just some way to put him out of this seat but killing is a bit too far. Sansa is not like this. She can manipulate him but killing him no.
King in the North! King in the North!
We viewers remember how elated we were in S1 when the King in the North, Robb, was proclaimed. Now we’re sort of happy but also wary. We hope this King in the North fares better than the previous one.
The Mel problem was solved in a pretty pre-emptory, simple manner. Maybe Mel will now meet Arya?
The battlement scene with Jon and Sansa. She apologises but also points out LF isn’t to be trusted. And she says he’s a Stark to her. Aww. And the sad/happy joke, father always promised winter is coming… OK, I was almost in a puddle of tears by then, aaw.
Sansa and LF in the godswood. He wants the Iron Throne and Sansa by his side. She walks away. Yay! Sansa! LF tries to drive a wedge between Sansa and Jon (trueborn child of Ned and Cat, born in Winterfell, a bastard born in the south) but apparently Sansa is having none of that. (Fans who were convinced Sansa was going to betray Jon in a power grab for herself will not be happy with this simple, straightforward, happy story. And this won’t be the end of it, but for now, Sansa is firmly loyal to her brother.)
Ah, Baby Bear Mormont! She put the other lords to shame. Love her! Lord Manderly’s speech wasn’t as epic as his or Wylla Manderly’s in the books, but he thinks Jon has avenged the Red Wedding, and proclaims Jon the King in the North. Lord Glover and then others follow. As a viewer, you feel worried. Jon seems worried and overwhelmed but Sansa smiles at him. Until she sees Littlefinger’s not-too-happy face… Littlefinger will cause all sorts of trouble in S7.
Oh, yes, and the northern lords were proclaiming Jon, as Ned Stark’s own blood… But we, the viewers, now know Jon isn’t Ned’s bastrard but Lyanna Stark’s son. The ToJ vision baby opening his brown eyes, cut to Jon’s brown eyes at the northern council, not very subtle, haha!
Still, the father wasn’t spelled out, but maybe many casual viewers might be able to work it out by now. 😀
Allthegoodnamesaregone,
I didn’t interpret Sansa’s expression as being sad for Jon being named KITN instead of her being recognised as QITN. Remember that earlier she told Jon to have the main chamber (Ned and Cat’s bedroom) and that even though he’s a bastard, she considers him a full Stark (so, at least symbolically, Sansa legitimised Jon). Moreover, when LF told her about his plans and that he needed her to become QITN, she declined his offer… It would be extremely disappointing if the producers decide to go in the direction of Sansa suddenly being jealous of Jon being named head of the Stark family.
My take on Sansa’s expression is that, when she looks at LF, she realises that he’s not happy at all with the outcome and she knows how dangerous he trully is, so she looks worried… Alternatively, she realises (or beings to realise) Jon’s parentage… Remember the conversation between LF and Sansa in the cripts of Winterfell in season 5… She knows that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar (and raped her, according to one version) and she died in the south… And during the conversation with LF in the Godswood, he calls Jon “a motherless child born in the south”… So maybe, and this is pure speculation, at that moment, things just click in Sansa’s head and she figures out that Jon is
Lord Parramandas,
Exactly, he looked at her and I felt a true genuine smile.
Then why does she say now that she wants to be Queen in the North, when Jon is King in the North? Come one, is pretty obvious…
Yes, I agree
Lord Parramandas,
Dee Stark,
Moreover, that scene mirrows when Robb is named KITN and he looks at Cat (kind of for approval) and she smiles back at him…
Moreover, by removing herself as QITN, she protects herself for being manipulated into marriage again and thwarts LF’s plans… I think that the change in her expression is due to the fact that she knows that now LF is going to become the next ennemy.
Pau,
Sophie is saying that. Not Sansa lol.
Yeah but how can you depose Jon without killing him? I mean, as long as he is alive she can’t be the Queen. Unless Sophie knows more that she can say (for example, that Jon dies fighting the walkers and she can then be Queen)…
No, Sophie is saying that Sansa wants to be Queen in the North
This Sansa confusion is manufactured for maximizing dramatic suspense. Haven’t we been down this path with D&D so many times before? They’ll keep milking it until the end where Sansa plays her card and kills LF.
Cersei, Euron and Littlefinger are the final three selfish idiots remaining. The rest of the realm is largely on a united front or getting there.
Fake smile man.
Pau,
Not necessarily… if Jon’s parentage is unveiled,
, leaving her as Lady Stark, QITN.
Or marry him?
I’m not sure why she wants to be “Queen in the North”. That’s the line from the article, and it doesn’t go into details. Just says, “Sansa doesn’t want the Iron Throne she wants to be Queen in the North.” Independent of any nefarious meaning behind that quote, I think Sansa-in the end-probably just wants to remain in the North and rebuild her house. I think LF was right in saying that she’s the future of House Stark. Arya isn’t ever going to get married and have children. Not her bag. Rickon is dead, Robb Is dead, and there’s a debate as to whether or not Bran Can have children. If he can’t, then it falls on Sansa to rebuild her House (as she can actually have children and extend the family line). And perhaps, that’s ultimately her endgame…to rebuild House Stark. Would kind of be poetic, considering she has always been viewed as the ‘least’ Stark among them all. If it falls on her to continue the House…I would find that poetically ironic.
They will milk it, of course, because the set up was clear. I wouldn’t be 100% about the outcome, though. We’ll see. I think there’s a chance of Sansa going to the dark side
BranTheBlessed,
Exactly. 13 episodes to go. No way we’ll waste time over a family feud. The whole Sansa /Jon thing is sort of this year’s cliffhanger.
Yes, but Sophie uses “I think…” in most of her sentences, so this is clearly her own opinion about the character. Like I said, the smile she gave to Jon after he was declared King in the North felt pretty real and I have no idea why would she refuse the lord’s chamber and offer it to Jon if she is that power-hungry. And the whole season has been built on tensions between her, LF on one side and Jon on the other side. Yes, she may have to choose in the future but considering that LF is (possibly) a villain and that someone has to defeat him, I think betrayal of LF is far more likely.
There’s a possibility that Dany doesn’t marry anyone next season. I hope that’s the case, but if she does, it’ll definitely be Jon. I have to admit the show did a good job of setting that up to make the most sense so at least there’s that. If they do get married I wonder if it’s before or after he find out about his parentage and how that plays out. Technically, in Westeros you could do a lot worse than marrying an aunt you never knew you had but still…
I wonder if Jon will ever find out about his parentage though. We assume he will but I’m not sure how that impacts his character going forward. He could still be a bastard for all we know so there’s the possibility that it doesn’t even make a difference. I guess I like the idea of Jon rising up despite his bastard status more than the idea of him being secret royalty.
But when Jon looked at her when they were calling him KitN, she smiled.
Nadia,
Jon looked more overwhelmed than Robb because he is a bastard and didn’t see it coming. I believe he was still feeling weird in the table. After the actors comments, I watched more carefully the scene to watch Sansa’s reactions and she was smiling during Lyanna’s speech and her face changed a little when Lyanna said she didn’t care he was a bastard. I believe they should have focused more on her face. It wasn’t enough to watch her last face expression to get she was angry. Sophie said they didn’t hear to Sansa because she was a girl. Now, I kind of get her point. The Northerners not even consider a Queen as an option, they only talked about a King. However, they listened to a little girl. So, it must be more about following a warrior.
I also remember the scene between Robb and Catelyn after Sansa married Tyrion and Bran and Rickon were presumed dead. She wanted him to name Arya his heir and marry her to a Bannerman. But Robb preferred Jon.
I wonder if Lyanna was pissed they didn’t know about the Knights of the Vale.
Should Bran tell Jon about his parents??? They believed Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Jon would be devastated. I don’t think Bran will tell Jon until he knows all the story or maybe Bran will look for Howland Reed first, hopefully not. I want a full Stark family reunion at the beginning of the season.
I hope Arya goes to Winterfel and not King’s Landing. I would be very disappointed if she doesn’t go to meet Jon. Afterwards, she could leave with the hound. She can make a new face for him too.
Pau,
As much as “Jon Snow is dead and not coming back”?
Pau,
Ah, grasshopper, maybe her unhappy look was also fake?
There is no spoon!
Pau,
This rivalry between them would have to be resolved before white walkers and Jon will not die before this fight. If she is to be QitN, she would have to find more elegant way. Unless he’s doing stupidity like Robb or maybe his parentage. But then we have Bran who is Ned’s oldest male son so this thrown another piece into the motion. Not only that, if he reveals truth about Jon.
Maybe he can be overthrown by his parentage reveal or he’ll decide to step aside. There are options but when they mentioned Daeny and potential marriage alliance. Jon makes most sense out of everyone but he needs to have power which means by the time they meet, he needs to be King in the North or otherwise he’s useless to her from this point of view. Much like in the books Aegon can’t show up and meet Daenerys with just his smile and surname. He needs to have power and army.
BranTheBlessed,
Thanks for putting those two together. That makes good sense.
SarahT,
Not all Targaryens have silver/gold hair and violet eyes. They have intermarried for generations and some did not look the same as Viserys or Daenerys.
RosanaZugey,
Yeah, I am a bit wary about her mentioning Jon after the “sexism” interviews. I don’t want to get into it again, it’s been debated enough. Besides, while she makes these points about Jon, I have not seen her say anything really positive about the character. You mention Tyrion and Dany, neither of those actors have made such comparisons between their characters, as to who is the mentally stronger character etc, they have always had positive things to say about the other character. Yeah, so I don’t really look forward to such interviews.
As for the show itself , I think Jon and Sansa will be on the same side and they could become a strong team eventually.
If Sansa starts leaning toward undermining Jon it will stop at killing him…which is what Baelish will likely be pushing for.
I hope she stops there when it gets to that point…and somehow shortly after actually gets some Intel on Littlefingers past dealings and decides to off him.
The question really is how should Baelish go? Moon door?
What is as much as that?
But you guys have to remember that in the books she’s not sold to the Boltons, she spends all of that time with LF, so she may already be turned.
Anyway I also think that she is more likely to betray LF, all I’m saying there is a chance that she will betray Jon, and that that will be a major plot point.
Marry his brother? I don’t think so…come on, the Starks are not Targaryan -;)
Grasshopper?
It’s much harder to fake a look when taken by surprise, which she was.
Why you guys so adamant in your denial? You know this is game of thrones, right? A fucked up world that is so real just because of that
Sam,
I understand why the writers would want to create some drama in the north in maybe the first half of the season while the queens duel in the south. I don’t think the wall will fall in the 1st few episodes; hence, they need for the north characters to be busy with something – so conflict/tension it is (through the machinations of LF).
Exactly. To me, it would make sense that our protagonists will be occupied with internal disputes which will render them less ready for the coming of the WWs. If Dany’s book vision is to be believed, and to be followed by the show, the final battle will not be at the Wall.
A dornish Tyrell,
Against a known Targaryen with three dragons????? … I doubt the Northerners would go south. Jon and Bran know about the Night’s King. But I suppose Littlefinger will be impatient about it, maybe the Knights of the Vale will leave Winterfell to join Danny. I totally see Littlefinger leaving Sansa behind.
I expect next season will be Lannister V.s Targaryen and Jon Vs. The Night’s King. Danny will win and the wall will fall.
I have my comment on moderation…o well, I’ll try again:
But you guys have to remember that in the books she’s not sold to the Boltons, she spends all of that time with LF, so she may already be turned.
Anyway I also think that she is more likely to betray LF, all I’m saying there is a chance that she will betray Jon, and that that will be a major plot point.
I get what you’re saying (especially when you frame it the way you did). As a Sansa fan, I don’t think I’d be too pleased if Kit went around saying something like, “Who knows what’s going to happen with Jon/Sansa/LF. I mean, we all know how easy it is to manipulate Sansa.” So, I mean, I get where you’re coming from. I personally don’t think she means to come off ‘negatively’ towards Jon/Kit but ok. I hear you. I get what you’re saying.
And in the end, I agree with you. I think Jon and Sansa will be fine. At least, I would hope so.
One thing this episode had was plenty of revenge. A dish best served cold… but it maybe loses some taste..?
Cersei’s revenge on septa Unella. OK, Unella was not a nice person, but Cersei’s sadistic revenge is disturbing. Well, Cersei’s going cray-cray and we hate her so maybe we can let that slide… But…
Arya’s revenge on Walder Frey. It felt a bit flat, and I think it was meant to be.
Ever since the Red Wedding, we’ve wanted late Lord Walder Frey dead. Formal ally Jaime Lannister despises him and is pissed off about having to endure a feast at the Twins. “Heh, we two kingslayers, heh, we don’t care what the other’s think, heh.” Late Lord Frey pushed the exact wrong buttons for Jaime, he’s got a very bad taste in his mouth about this alliance and finally mic drops Lord Frey – They don’t fear the Freys, they fear the Lannisters, and if we have to hold the Riverlands for you… Why do we need you? Jaime leaves.
The pretty, dark-haired serving wench probably heard that exchange. She’d been eyeing Jaime earlier, to the extent that Bronn thinks it’s a sex thing.
It wasn’t a sex thing. Jaime’s disdain and distaste and despise for the Freys probably saved his life. Jaime Lannister has never been on Arya’s list and he didn’t get on it now.
Arya killing Lord Walder Frey… We, the viewers thought it’d be jubilant in a blood-thirsty revenge way, but for me, it was sad and horrible. I’m glad late Lord Walder Frey, the breaker of the most sacred law in Westeros (guest right) is dead, but the way Arya killed him gave me pause. We don’t want our “heroes” to be brutal, cold-blooded, gloating. But they are, because everybody is grey in this wonderful tale.
Stark Loyalist,
How come no one is talking about mellisandra leaving and what effect that will have fighting the white walkers.
I don’t pretend to know how it will play out on the show, but I have to think that the red priests (Melisandre, Thoros, Kinvara) have some greater role to play in the Great War to Come. Now the show may drop this as being too magical, which outside of Dany and Bran, it tends to do.
Show!Mel is much less powerful than book!Mel. Book!Mel had an interest in Jon long before his death. She was his Cassandra forever warning him of the danger he was in and he believed her not.
Mel will meet Arya. What comes of that, I don’t know. You don’t have to be specifically mentioned by Arya to be killed – Lame Lothar and Black Wader to my knowledge were not ever on her lists. Unpopular to say, but she may be taking the role of that certain lady from the books.
Another question – Did Dany leave Kinvara and the other red priestesses in Meereen to keep the population happy or did she sail with her? I have to believe that one tension for the invading armada could be Varys’ distrust of magic.
Since Sophie said Sansa was jealous that no one talked about her, the rightful heir, being queen and since Kit (dysfunctional families) and Liam (everyone except Sansa thinks Jon would make a great king) echoed the Sansamosity sentiment in the King in the North video, something in the script must have clarified an animosity during that moment.
Mag,
As far as Sansa knows, she’s not aware of Dany existance… yet. My thoughts were in that direction. Once she finds out, she might even encourage Jon to marry Dany.
But its Jon’s reputation that matters, not Rhaegar’s. Its Sansa’s reputation that matters, not Ned’s.
Besides, all these things to do with bloodline, name have been thrown out the window in Westeros. A bastard overthrew the Martells and is ruling Dorne, because she has the support of the people. A self confessed Kinslayer/Kingslayer commands the Ironborn because he has the support of his people. Mass murderer and someone with no claim sits the Iron throne because..well… I have no clue.
Jon’s is actually the Kingship that makes the most sense.
It is not only the Dothraki that follow strength, all people do. They followed Robert because he had strength and purpose. If blood/family name was what mattered most, Ned Stark would have been chosen King, not Robert.
People will follow Jon because his strength, valor and experience is what’ll count if they are to survive the Great war to come, not Sansa’s ‘true-born’ blood.
RosanaZugey,
Yup, that’s my hope too 🙂 .
I didn’t know about those interviews…I guess it’s pretty clear then.
To all the naysayers, we’ll find out in 10 months and I’l remember…”The North In The South Remembers” 😛
Oh, and on the revenge theme.
Dorne (sigh) and Olenna make a deal to avenge their families on the Lannisters – Varys is there to advocate “Fire and Blood”, the words of the House Targaryen.
I just don’t think revenge works. It’s better to come together in a positive way, and, yes, forgive and forget old past transgressions and wars.
The message I took away from this episode was that revenge is futile and hollow and empty, and in the end, self-destructive and a bad strategy. I mean, look at vengeanceful Cersei and what she does, and contrast that with the “whimpy” Jon Snow. He foregoes executing Mel, just banishes her. Many viewers will probably criticise the show for not fulfilling their bloodlust but I think it’s one of the brilliances of the show that we’re presented with these dilemmas. The good guys aren’t all good and the bad guys aren’t all bad. That’s why we watch this show for 6 seasons and counting.
Dee Stark,
In all seriousness, I am obsessed with this show and I went back and watched season 1 clips and I was shocked at how much I forgot.
Do you remember the exact clip with Cersei and Robert talking about Lyanna, Viserys, and the Dothraki?
It was a clear foreshadowing to what a Targ with an army united behind them could do, but I’ve seen almost no one reference it – because people don’t remember lines dropped here and there years ago.
I bet I could ask about dozens of scenes that are now relevant where they dropped a hint here or there and the most diehard watchers even here would’ve forgotten about them!
I think it was very much done this way to NOT make it clear, and for many people it was not clear.
Ginevra,
Yes, she is conflicted between LF and Jon – on one hand, she is happy about Jon (her family) to suceed, but on the other hand, she is jelaous, when nobody mentioned her. That smile felt pretty real to me though so I don’t think she is completely on LF’s side or as power-hungry as many assume, especially considering that she refused to occupy lord’s bedroom. If LF manages to turn her against Jon, what would be the point of her character?
Okay I’ve been fangirling all over this season the entire time-so you know I love it.
Watching everyone discuss Sansa, LF and Jon/ToJ and had some thoughts.
On Sophie/Sansa–yeah I don’t like her promoting this queen in the north, Jon isn’t as smart bs either. Now I kind of want Sansa to take a walk in the woods and almost be killed by a wight so she understands the stakes lol jk. However-objectively it would fit her character’s story line to manipulate him. She was the only one not in the first Stark family scene (she was being raised more like a Tully lady), her direwolf died in the second episode of the series, she’s been abused and held hostage and fed a load of bull from Cersei and LF for years-when she escaped it was only because of LF-then her aunt tried to kill her and then she was raped and mutilated by Ramsey (also put into both situations because of LF). She seems to have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome thing with him. She thinks she’s strong and says only a fool would trust him-but she lets his words get to her. It doesn’t matter how kind Jon is to her or how much like Ned he is-and he is-it doesn’t matter what he’s been through–she’s still in KL when LF is around. And Jon-just like Ned-wouldn’t last long in KL, because he means what he says and he’s honorable aka “naive”
I am SO SO hoping she moves beyond that and helps Jon instead. That she tricks LF to distract him from Jon. maybe the Hound will help? *crossing things*
On LF
First-I think if LF knew about Jon he would have used it before now. Ned Stark hiding a baby Targ from his king and bff Robert? Come on, he would have used that to control Ned in KL. If he knew all along-on the show-it would make less sense than him not knowing about Ramsay. Although he could find Wylla now…I hate the idea of him being involved in that, but he does like to know info on people in power.
It’s awesome to see Varys on the side of a GIANT armada of ships, dragons and Dany and LF glaring in the corner of a Northern house where, other than screwing with Sansa’s mind, he has no real power. He has Harrenhal I guess. He has the Vale through SR gift manipulation…and he might have Sansa-who he wants to sit beside him as the younger version of Cat on the Iron Throne.
There’s no doubt he wants her. Cat had always been his weakness too-but that didn’t stop him from destroying her life.
I give him a lot of credit-I used to think he was the one who got the message sent to Brandon about Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna so quickly (he was still living in Riverrun at the time), knowing he’d rush off to save her, as payback for their duel for Cat. That would mean he really started Robert’s Rebellion-because who knows if they were just eloping and would have come back until Aerys killed Lyanna’s father and brother and basically declared war on the Starks. I think Cat-and now Sansa-are his weakness. They make him show his hand and make mistakes (When he basically came on to Cat over Ned’s bones/And then Sansa even knowing she just killed her sadistic rapist husband)
At this point LF has few choices. He can worm into her mind and try and get rid of Jon, undermine the North’s allegiance to him. He can hear about the Mad Queen and take Sansa to her so he can be near the precious throne again. OR they can hear about the army of queens coming for Cersei and Sansa can lead the Vale as Jon’s heir/Lady of Winterfell/Lady of the Vale etc and join with Dany (that seems complicated-but I haven’t seen any clue that LF is even aware of how close Dany is so I had to throw it out there)
Basically LF will be a big pain for all of them until someone kills him.
On Jon
I LOVED him this season-seeing more of him and his big story…but they really do kind of futz with his reveals, don’t they? I mean everything important that happens to him happens really fast without enormous fanfare-unless it’s a battle. They do give him badass battles.
Youngest LC with quickest vote in history, died and came back to life, bastard king in the North…and he’s the literal song of ice and fire-child of a Stark and Targaryen-Winter is coming with Fire and Blood…and the reveal of ToJ is so subtle half the people don’t get it and aren’t even sure why Bran had to see Jon’s birth at all-unless it was to show he shouldn’t be KitN (actually had someone say this to me).
And for being one of the top five characters? He has less dialogue than most of the secondary characters. I’d love more-to know what’s going on in his head.
That being said Kit did an amazing job. Still I think they chose Sansa’s Sophie’s Choice w/ LF over Sansa has talk with Jon about his death and what’s really on the other side of the Wall because secrets and power trips are more exciting than ice zombies and magical resurrections… I guess? 🙂
All that aside-as a whole some of my greatest theories from the books came true and the visuals this season were better than anything we’ve had to date. Bear Island, Oldtown, grown dragons, the Battle of the Bastards, the explosion at the sept. Epic stuff. So was the music. They really outdid themselves.
What army does the Royal Queen command? The East and the North have united and declared against her, over in the South the Martells and Dornish have declared against her. Jaime is the Lord of Casterly Rock so he commands the Lannister army.
Queen Cersei-first of her name- protects the realm with whatever is left of the Gold cloaks.
Nadia,
I’m embarrassed to admit how many times my husband and I have rewatched this series and yes–Hints for Lyanna, Jon, Dany…they were all slipped in there in offhand conversations since episode 1 of season 1.
For ToJ-the very first scene with King Robert was him demanding to go to the crypts to see Lyanna. He’s giving this passionate speech about killing Rhaegar every night-and why is Lyanna down here-and Ned’s reaction in hindsight is very telling. So is his reaction when Robert asks about his bastard’s mother in the same conversation he talks about needing to kill the last Targaryens.
There’s actually a lot-it’s just so spread out and overshadowed by current Westeros events I think people do forget about it. And yes, I think they were meant to until the ToJ.
What??? You mean there is a whole theory about LF knowing? While I thought that I was the only one having thought about that?
Jesus, is there a theory about everything???
But yes, what you say actually makes sense. I would have gone with him telling Sansa that he’s not even her brother, but then again it would be possible that he would just open her eyes to a better marriage prospect.
I’m certainly okay with a woman being emotionally stronger than a man, but I’m not seeing that here. Sansa is darker and perhaps more Machiavellian, yes. And she was willing to fight when Jon wasn’t, but that was before Jon’s second rebirth when he came back stronger than ever before, willing to fight, willing to be king, willing to play the hero, and willing to embrace his destiny. But I almost always wholeheartedly disagree with Sophie.
Liam was likely the first to call bullshit on Jon staying dead, and so he’s a very trustworthy source.
talvikorppi,
Man, I was also at loss with that. I mean I would have loved Arya’s slitting the guy’s throat, but the whole pie thing was gross and, well, plain evil. I don’t think there are many characters on the show who have done evil at this level. It kind of suddens me for Arya. I mean I want her to get her revenge but not to be a Hannibal Lecter copycat.
One more thing I found horrible in the finale were the “little birds”. I mean I was glad to see the old fart go, and I am sure those street urchins would be capable of a lot of things, but I did not enjoy watching children stabbing a man to death.
I hope the later date is so they’ll take more time writing. I think that is where the most time is needed as we pass the books by.
Exactly. You’ve nailed it.
dragonbringer,
No I’m not saying that at all.
There’s a language barrier here and I think you are doing great. I understand what you mean now. Keep posting 🙂
Sou,
it’s funny you say that specifically-because those are both (little birds with knives and Frey pie) book nods. Different characters doled it out-but both things happened.
Frey pie is kind of Rat Cook justice for Walder betraying guest rite and slaughtering Robb and Cat at the Red Wedding. There’s even a song about the Rat Cook in Westeros with the moral of not killing someone you’ve offered shelter to under your own roof.
I think people were glad to see the book nod, but yes, giving it to Arya was-wow-dark, even for her. Then again-the way she Quentin-Tarantinoed Meryn Trant was fairly hard core.
She does recognize all Jon has done for her, even though she’s ambitious and gets extremely jealous when others focus on Jon and not her. That jealousy will continue to fester.
Ginevra,
Well, I think I’ve written something like that in a response to you above.
And Sophie is often wrong, though I suspect a tiny something was in the script to hint toward Sansamosity.
Dee is saying Sophie could be wrong about that. If it was show canon, we’d trust it more.
Ginevra,
Yeah I’m not really on Sophie’s side with a lot of these comments.
I’ve never understood this “Jon can’t listen to women” thing that’s been pushed.
And I sure as hell don’t agree that Sansa is stronger than Jon. She’s I think more manipulative, more of a political player – but stronger? I think we’ve seen him go through a whole lot of hardship and loss and come out still fighting.
Jon does try to see the best in the people. Does that make him weak? I don’t think so, not really.
I pointed this out before, but I think even if the show wants us to think otherwise, his forgiveness and his compassion are his strength.
Robb Stark was so determined to not bend that he killed Lord Karstark, even when everyone else counseled some form of pardon.
Lord Glover insulted Jon (and Sansa) to their faces, and instead of humiliating him in return, Jon just says “there’s nothing to forgive my lord.” That loyalty he gained there will serve him well.
BranTheBlessed,
I agree. She’s toast! She’s just annihilated the champions of the common people as well. One Frankenstein monster and a Maester who experiments on living people (shadowing Dr Mengele) isn’t going to carry you forward in the end. Her rule is probably the weakest yet. Who is her Hand? Jaime? He’s likely to be running for the hills soon and little brother is about to turn up with a military might they haven’t anticipated. Bring it on ???
Ginevra,
Benioff, Kit, Liam, and Sophie ALL said this.
Why is everyone pushing this “Sophie knows nothing” line?? It was either very clearly noted in the script or they know where this is going.
I think sort of wishing it away is fans just trying to pretend nothing will come between the Starks.
RG,
Yes, but actually slaying the guys, cutting them to pieces, baking a pie…
Ginevra,
As do I. She’s hopelessly out of her depth every time whether it’s when she was young and naive or now she’s more worldly wise. Inherently I find her shallow and self serving and it will bite her in the end. I don’t see her surviving long term.
There’s even a part of Sophie herself who ever hopeful of a longer term role pushes herself forward ***contraversial*** Don’t blame her, I’d do the same!
ghost of winterfell,
In the original article, she never accused Jon of being sexist, even though that’s how the WotW article read and what I assumed was true before reading the article. She never says sexism or sexist but she does imply Jon’s decisions are the results of a patriarchal society. Not at all the same thing as saying he’s sexist.
Who’s to say she didn’t kill them in their beds, lop off a few fingers and shove them into a previously baked pie for effect?
I think most people would acknowledge I’m as discontented with Sansa (and Sophie’s comments) as just about anyone lol, but I think some of these theories about her are going WAY too far.
1) Sansa digging with LF to find out Jon’s parentage – wtf? Sorry, this strikes me as absurd. There is NOTHING in show canon that would imply they both together think there’s something shady and try to dig it out.
Sansa told Jon he was a Stark to her. Whether she feels sibling rivalry, I don’t think she lied about that. She might have problems with his claim as a bastard, but she doesn’t doubt that he’s NED’S bastard.
And LF might doubt that Rhaegar stole and raped Lyanna, but there has been no indication that he suspects it was about a baby and Ned is raising HER child. He would’ve had endless time to use that in Season 1 and dig while Ned was alive.
2) Sansa isn’t killing Jon FFS. What I do think will happen is that she will disagree with some of Jon’s decisions as king, and that will fuel discontent, because LF will be whispering in her ear that she would do better.
3) Sansa said only a fool would trust LF. I believe she means that – she just maybe will still be vulnerable to his whispers, even when she tells herself she doesn’t trust him. But she doesn’t actually outright trust him right now and that look wasn’t a conspiracy look.
4) Do people expect Sansa to look overjoyed at the KITN?? Go back and watch the video I posted of Robb and Cat. Cat wasn’t jealous of her son, but she gives him a pretty tight smile. You can see that it’s not an overjoyed moment, it’s still a pretty somber moment. Sansa’s not going to stand up and applaud.
I thought her reaction was pitch perfect. Her smile wasn’t disingenuous. It was an EXACT mirror of Cat, who understood this wasn’t some joyful coronation because it meant wars and danger to come, and Benioff told us we’re supposed to make that comparison.
5) She smiles at Lyanna Mormont’s speech and then looks down and tries to hide her smile because she doesn’t want to sit up there smirking at the lords. I didn’t at all see any disappointment.
I think it’s quite clear —
She might want to be Queen in the North but doesn’t EXPECT to be named Queen in the North
She’s talked multiple times about lords rallying behind JON as Ned’s son (even if he’s a bastard) about how she’s a girl. She might want in her heart to be the QITN, but I don’t think Sansa is stupid enough to expect it. She seems to take it as a given that it’s Jon they will stand behind.
Still my theory is Jon won’t remain King in the North. Either through the R+J reveal, or something else, somehow I don’t actually think it’s Jon’s destiny to go into battle as a King.
I think the end to the Sansamosity storyline is too murky to call at this point, although if forced to bet, I’d choose what you’ve said because I want to love all Starks. I completely agree that Sansa is not on Team LF or Team Jon but on Team Sansa all the way.
All this Sansa stuff is leaving me awe struck.
One of the biggest climaxes in Sansa’s entire arc is outsmarting LF and killing him, his point in the story is up, he’s done and won’t last past the 2nd half of S7. She rejected the offer of leadership when offered it from Jon himself. She said only a fool would trust LF and told him to fuck off when he revealed his end game.
She was SMILING when Jon was declared king. She only stopped smiling when she saw how pissed off LF looked. Do you guys honestly expect her to do a full 180 and side with LF? The guy she was tempted kill in ep 5? The guy she just rejected and plainly doesn’t trust? Over her brother who she just said is a Stark to her? Guys… c’mon.
They wanted to murk the water a little bit by saying there will be a rivaly. That doesn’t mean “side with LF to become queen” it means rivalry in sense of dealing and directing how the house punishes it’s enemies. She’s more ruthless, vengeance driven while Jon is more forgiving and naive. She has a completely different idea on how to confront LF.
Also Sophie said she and the rest of the cast have no idea what’s going to happen, D&D tell them nothing so it’s their guess work.
Sansa betraying Jon and siding with LF would be completely against her arc. It’s time the giant is slain in the castle of snow.
Sou,
I just meant that I loved your theory and I think it still works well. I’m not positive if others subscribe, but it sounds viable.
Nadia,
Well said.
Qyburn is now Hand,he wears the badge in the coronation scene.
Yes, I’m sure you are correct. It’s tough to give up our pet theories. Although not all have seen these quotes so I think we just need to keep quoting the sources.
Cool tidbit! I hadn’t caught that.
I was surprised after the episode that many people didn’t saw that,it mirrored in a way the moment with Dany and Tyrion.The two queens and their Hands.
Ser Gerold Dayne,
Ooooh well spotted!! In need of a Grand Maester there then. Any volunteers?
Btw I don’t actually personally think Sansa will kill Jon, but why is everyone so stuck to this idea that the Starks are the most pure and loving house, so no one will ever betray the other?
How is anyone making such firm statements like: Sansa won’t betray Jon, he’s family.
Again, I don’t personally think so, but I think it would be ENTIRELY unusual for GRRM to make every single person in this family deeply and unquestionable loyal to each other. His whole point is to show how war and life changes and ruins people. I could very easily see Sansa turning against Jon if she feels she is MORE Stark and more capable, even if I hope this is not their fate.
It would be quite fitting for Jon to be finally betrayed by his own family, if you think about it.
Ser Gerold Dayne,
I wish we’d gotten Davos a pin, too. Three hands.
Halfman,
Ok, could be, but I don’t think the point is showing Arya as a killer AND con artist. She’s seriously into that, and although I like her as a character, I hope she doesn’t turn into a Cersei bis with greater killing skills. Don’t get me wrong, I want her to revenge her family’s dead, but still, let’s not do too much out of it.
Well that’s how I saw it anyway in the episode,Davos as a Hand-like character to Jon.But without a pin of course,they don’t have that in the North.
Sou,
I know where you’re coming from. Ayra isn’t a cold killing machine. The scenes with Lady Crane told us that.
Personally I hope to see Ayra get back to WF. Jon could do with her protection !!
With what they know they’re going to be facing there’s no way they can have Sansa be QitN or lead the north. As far as they know currently she may be the rightful successor but she actually does know nothing.
Jon is going to have a lot to do and being KitN and Lord of Winterfell really is splitting his responsibilities. Perhaps he could just renounce his seat as Lord of Winterfell and declare/appoint Sansa as Lady of Winterfell but retain his title and leadership as King in the North. Sansa would essentially be a Hand of the King and Lady of Winterfell, somewhat similar to Tywin serving as Hand while also being Lord of Casterly Rock.
Halfman,
Ha ha, that would be great! Actually I do hope for a total Stark reunion…although I am afraid it will just be wishful thinking.
Let’s hope that Arya will meet up with Brienne/the Hound and will all go up North. Although I take it she’s more likely to catch up with Melisandre first. Don’t remember if she was on Arya’s list.
D&D pretty much said out loud that Sansa and Arya would make the perfect team in some interview pre S6. A full stark reunion is guaranteed. Hopefully it’s in the first ep of S7.
Bearded Onion,
I could definitely get behind that. SO want a Stark reunion. Also with Arya around-LF wouldn’t have a leg to stand on. Part of her FM training was spotting lies, and she already had a natural talent for it. Bet she sees right through him.
Yeah, I hope Arya sees through too and she and Sansa take him down together. I think Jon and Bran will get fucked hard by LF though. They are too much like dad. :p
Sou,
Well Ramsey for one – not a good example, obviously. I for one cheered, I’ve been waiting for Frey Pie for decades now. It was time for the Red Wedding to be avenged and it couldn’t have happened to a better person. Now, I had problems with the scene (like how did she kill the two sons, and who let her in the kitchen), but I cheered and pumped my fist.
That being said, I don’t want Arya to lose whats good in her, and I think we see that is still there when she decides not to kill Lady Crane. As long as that stays, Im happy.
ash,
Hey, that look that Jaime and Arya gave each other? Could they have been in this together? Nahhhhhh..
Sou,
Its not real. And given what we saw in episode 9, Id say this was tame in comparison
Ser Gerold Dayne,
Huh, didn’t notice that at all; yes, nicely mirrored. Good reason to come here wouldn’t have gotten that by myself. Which is why so many smart viewers do not get what seems obvious to us, and why the show needs to show it better
The thing is in my case that the show airs where I live early in the Monday morning.So at the first airing I don’t watch it with anyone else,I am rested and I am not distracted by anything.Also no phone yet,nothing.I put the headset on and just pay attention to the show,I catch most shots(if not all)and dialogue very well.Haven’t re-watched episode 10 but I can easily discuss any scene with anyone.Of corse,if I would watch it with a croud,get distracted by my phone,etc. it would be different.
RG:
Bearded Onion,
I hadn’t considered how fun that would be to have Arya listen to Littlefinger’s broken sentences and tell him “that’s a lie” to everything that snakes out of his mouth.
Yeah, Melisandre was on the initial, longer list that she recited by the fire that annoyed Sandor. She along with Beric and Thoros were all on the list until she reduced it to just four names when she got to the HoBaW.
Somebody has – This one was particularly effective, I think!
Any significance in a bloody dawn (the sword) being brought into the the room where Lyanna, Ned and Jon were? Is this a prince that was promised tip of the cap? Ned was crying (salty tears). I didn’t see smoke from a fire anywhere, but the room did look smoky when you saw the window on the other side of the room. They intentionally had the sword in frame when Ned rested it against the bottom of the bed when entering the chamber. Is there something else special about dawn? There is literally no other sword like it in Westeros or the east as far as I know.
Bringdownthatwall,
The Prince who was promised is supposed to be born “beneath a bleeding star.” Dawn was forged from a fallen star, supposedly. And it was bloody from the fight.
Clob,
I’d love that. Ayra whacking him with a stick every time he tells a lie. Oh too funny! ?
Sue the Fury,
So it fits. In the show, we don’t know what Ned did with Dawn thereafter. Buried with Lyanna at WF is a possibility. The Daynes do not feature in the show.
Sue the Fury,
I also think people take prophecies incredibly literally . People who say “Jon was already born,” I don’t think Jon had to literally be born beneath the sword.
But there is no question in my mind that they had Ned bring that sword up and then they focused entirely on it and the bed of blood BEFORE even Lyanna.
A question here to the more musically minded and musically educated folks. Did you notice that Cersei was given a new theme which is very reminiscent of that of Philip Glass’ opera Akhnaten? Reminds me very much of “The window of appearances”, the scene in which the new King Akhnaten proclaimes his new rule and faith. Interesting contrast here: Akhnaten’s credo is creation, while we see that Cersei’s is destruction.
Halfman,
But hadn’t Jon had already been born when Ned came up with the sword? How long after birth does born imply?
I agree with everything you’ve said.
Still a very good episode.
while wandering around the internet I came across this quote about the time travelling teleporting issue which I do find distracting. But accept that this is the way D&D are writing the story.
I found this from someone called JS79 who posted this explanation ( not sure of the site) it was posted • on Jun 27, 2016 7:16 pm
“Explanation for people covering great distances: Excerpt from ‘A Storm of Swords’:
“A Song of Ice and Fire is told through the eyes of characters who are sometimes hundreds or even thousands of miles apart from one another. Some chapters cover a day, some only an hour; others might span a fortnight, a month, half a year. With such a structure, the narrative cannot be strictly sequential; sometimes important things are happening simultaneously, a thousand leagues apart.”
Hope that help people who have expressed reservations on the traveling around by characters in Westerose and Essos.
Darkrobin,
Why do people take prophecies so literally??
What other reason is the show giving us a closeup of Dawn with the star on it, right next to all the birthing blood, BEFORE even showing you Lyanna properly?
Was the comet over Dragonstone the exact second Dany came out of the womb?
Nadia,
I can’t imagine Sansa planning to kill Jon or hurt him. I would be extremely disappointed (like when Stannis accepted to sacrifice Shireen). I believe neither Jon nor Sansa wanted to admit they wanted to be the leader of House Stark. In the former scene, Jon said you should take it and Sansa not you … but they both wanted to take it. They both doubted about their entitlement IMO. Jon always dreamed of being Lord Stark … Being named King in the North and the Northerners saying they didn’t care he was a bastard … He is so overwhelmed and happy, while Sansa is disappointed. No one even asked her opinion. But it shouldn’t last. Bran should return to Winterfell shortly and hopefully Arya too. I hope Arya doesn’t move to King’s Landing without visiting her siblings first.
Nadia,
Sue the Fury,
Under the bleeding star a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword.
I didn’t see anything drawn out of fire or any waking the dragons out of stone.
Oh! So that’s why folks were so excited about Ned leaning Dawn against the bed.
If they are too metaphorical, it seems like bullshit that anyone could predict. As in, if the valonqar was like a little brother to someone or a brother of the Night’s Watch or kingsguard or some religious sect, well, that could be just about any freaking dude.
Because that’s how they’re supposed to be taken? If you only take half the words while ignoring the rest, there’ll be plenty of people who satisfy the prophecy.
When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.
Its Deanerys Stormborn
Jon MAY fulfill another prophecy
There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him
This one does not require being born under bleeding stars (notice the plural)
There is a theory that the first prophecy (which Deanerys has already fulfilled) has a translation error. Its not the AAR prophecy but only a Targeryan prophecy because
1) AA had nothing to do with dragons, he came before the age of the dragons. His was the fight against the Others and only the second prophecy foretells this.
2) AAR prophecy is 5000 years old whereas the prophecy maester Aemon says Deanerys has fulfilled is 1000 years old
BranTheBlessed,
I agree. The prophecy seems to imply that Lightbringer will be drawn after the Long Night starts. And the Long Night is yet to come.
Nadia,
I agree. Casual viewers will not have their mind blown by the TOJ. My husband obviously got it it was Jon Snow and Ned’s sister but he did not see why that would be exciting. When I was jumping up and down on the couch from excitement he asked:
– Ok, why is that important… wait, wait, so Ned had a baby with his sister? Or that was not his sister at all???
– No, no, Jon’s father is Rhaegar of course!
– Who is Rhaegar?
– That prince who was killed on the Trident by Robert! Daenerys’ brother!
– Brother? But he was killed by that khal in the first season???
– No, that was Viserys.
– Oh.
BranTheBlessed,
Based on our previous discussion, you have convinced me. Daeny is TPTWP and Jon is AAR. The Last Hero may be Jon or may be Bran. I see your point on it being Bran. At least for the books I should add. It could well be that the show may be taking a different take on it. It would simplify things if there was only one …
I believe show!Mel refers to Jon as TPTWP. I cannot recall if she originally referred to show!Stannis as AAR or just TPTWP. Book!Mel is looking for AAR – not TPTWP. It’s possible that the show will combine the two.
BranTheBlessed,
I don’t really understand these AA/AAR and PTWP prophesies. Since, as you said, Dany already fulfilled one and Jon could fulfill another one, does that mean there could be two AAs? Also, why are there 2 different descriptions of AA?
Are AA and PTWP the same?
Who knew the depths of the foreshadowing of this scene as it was happening:
https://goo.gl/images/HsmI0Z
Blackwater season 2
Cersei on Iron Throne about to mercy poison Tommen
Whoa!
Darkrobin,
Even the books Mel calls stannis twice as TPTWP ..
A Storm Of Swords.
The father doesn’t matter at all, genes that code for dark hair are dominant to genes that code for blonde hair. You can get a blonde child out of black-haired parents, but it’s only possible if both father and mother carry both genes for black and blonde (the blonde cannot come to expression in the parent due to the presence of the dominant black). If all Baratheons in the family tree are dark-haired, it’s very unlikely that Robert carried both genes for black and blonde. If he only carried two black genes, all his children will have black hair (but that would also be the case if he had been a woman). In reality probably more genes are involved in determining hair color and in Westeros they probably only know “black haired parents usually have black haired children”. For that reason a.o. Targaryens intermarried: breeding with another family would make them lose their silver hair.
But Jon has an albino wolf, so someone must have known that he’s half Targaryen.
The one prophecy that is set in stone is this one.
‘There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.’
It is very specifically mentioned that this prophecy comes from the ancient books of Asshai over five thousand years old.
Every other prophecy, your ‘TPtwP’, ‘StMW’ etc are translations of the original prophecy. So it must be taken with a pinch of salt, cause there may be Translation errors. Notice that neither of these prophecies are absolute, their origin vague.
The Dothraki believed this savior would be one of them, hence the Stallion who mounts the World- who would ride and behind him his khalasar covers the earth (because that’s what Dothraki do)
Similarly, the Valerian’s–in essence the Targaryens–believed the savior would be one from their line-the Prince that was promised-who would be born amongst salt and smoke and wake dragons out of stone.
My theory: TPtwP and StMW are not the same as the AAR prophecy but versions of it based on belief/tradition of the people who are interpreting it. Deanerys has fulfilled both TPtwP and StMW and she’s your safest bet to be the Savior.
However, note that that does not make her AAR-as of yet- because the original prophecy remains unfulfilled. My belief that Jon could prove to be AAR is based on a dream of his where he is slaying the dead with a red blade burning in his fist.
Agree
I had this conversation literally a dozen times if no more with various people…although I normally have to say “Robert, the fat king that was killed by a boar” :S
Darkrobin,
Dawn was there the whole time. Arthur Dayne had Dawn at the TOJ the whole time before Ned arrived. Jon was born in a bed of blood at the TOJ and it looks as though the show have deliberately shown a view of the sword together with the bloody bed.
I am not sure if someone has already said this.. but still.. I don’t think Sansa is going to betray Jon. She said.. ” Back then, I only thought of what I want, not what I had” that’s what she thinks.. betray Jon, by trusting Little Finger’s words? He called her aunt ” Love” and killed her when she became an inconvenience. She know that. She know he served the lannisters, and then betrayed them by killing Joff. Above all she effing betrayed her father ( in books) and faced a hell lot of consequences for that. Jon is the only family she has now( as of now anyway) she is not going to betray him for power.
Thank you for this.. Seriously… she just said ” Back then, I only thought about what I want, not what I had…” she effing doesn’t want to be a queen.. She wanting to be a queen has brought so much mess in the first place.. ( in the books to a great extent… and in the show to some extent) she is with the person, who won’t sell her.. for the first time after her father.. and she found her family .. after a hard struggle.. so she would betray Jon for what? For being LF’s queen? seriously?
dragonbringer,
I am glad that you are here .. that you exist… because people are making a monster out of Dany… and I am actually getting carried away.. with their theories… you brought me back to the perspective I had of her while reading books… thank you for that
There is a theory that Jon isn’t a Targ, but a Dayne instead. After Lyanna was kidnapped she fell for Dayne while in captivity and became pregnant by him. To keep Dayne’s honor she slept with Rhaegar to make him believe that he fathered the child. In a way it’s kind of a twist on King Arthur, Guinevere and Lancelot. I kind of like the idea and the Dayne’s also had purple eyes, so it fits (Jon’s eyes appear a deep purple at times in the show). It would also make Jon the next sword of the morning if he were to wield Dawn. It’s also speculated that because Dawn is much, much older than any other sword in the West that the Dayne’s are decedents of AA. Some also think Dawn is buried in the crypts of Winterfell since Ashara Dayne killed herself over Ned killing her brother, but before she died she told Ned of the prophecy and how the Dayne’s are related and gave him Dawn for safe keeping to give to Jon.
It’s obviously a long shot, but I kind of like the idea and it would be a huge twist. Like everyone else I still think R+L=J is much more likely.
BranTheBlessed,
Thank you so much for enlightening me! 🙂
TheRealWolf,
Thank you glad you feel this way..
Sam,
for what its worth that incident had already happened at the end of season 1 and AGOT.
When the long summer ends and darkness fall on earth a warrior shall draw a flaming sword from fire under the bleeding star.
When the long summer ended and darkness fell ( WW reappear) and dany ends up bringing dragons ( lightbringer or flaming sword ) out of fire under the bleeding star ( red comet ) ..
Pau,
remember when everyone thought that Arya was jaquen when she got stabbed? How sure everyone thought it wasn’t her? it may be best to take a step back from looking into little details too deeply (like Arya paying the westerosi dude with her right hand instead of her left hand or the smile sanser has at jon’s coronation) and be patient. all will be revealed and all will come together nicely, so “don’t worry, be happy, cause every little thing is gonna be alright”.
Chad Brick,
I figured it out before the end of season 1 before I read the books
fdr,
But Jon has an albino wolf, so someone must have known that he’s half Targaryen
I believe that there are 4 with red eye(s) in ASOIAF – Ghost, Mel, Blackraven, and Euron (I”m not 100% on this). Not sure what to make of it. Ghost and BR were albinos? Mel, well that is probably an glamour.
dragonbringer,
Thanks. Wasn’t sure. And I tend to agree with you that the show (at least) may be leaning in the direction of Jon based on this.
What I find interesting is that there were some on this site who mocked people for elevating a sword Dawn to importance and wanting it to appear in the TOJ scene. And were happy that Dayne wielded two swords and not a milkwhite Dawn. And now it looks like it might be important that the sword was Dawn.