Game of Thrones Post-Mortem of “The Broken Man”

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Here are your morning-after Game of Thrones interview highlights, digging deeper into last night’s new episode, “The Broken Man.”

First up: Entertainment Weekly speaks to Ian McShane about his guest role on this week’s episode of Game of Thrones. In the piece (hilariously titled “Ian McShane breaks his silence on secret role” because McShane has been ever so silent about being on GoT), the star discusses his part as the peace-loving Brother Ray.

Major spoilers for “The Broken Man” below the cut!

“I think my main use was to re-introduce a character people thought was long gone and who needed some humanity,” McShane tells EW. “The Hound has not been shown much humanity in his life, and he gets a little from Brother Ray and carries that forward into his character, which makes it more interesting for those who watch him. Also, my daughter, who’s an avid watcher of the show, was like, “Oh, The Hound! That will be good!”

As for the publicity and fan hoopla surrounding the show, the actor says:

People are fascinated by it. Is Jon Snow going to come back? Is it going to be The Hound? [Fans are] involved in the world and then they work it out, which is great. It all about publicity, which is why I’m talking to you, isn’t it? … I did the DVD commentary the other day with [co-executive producer Bryan Cogman] and Natalie Dormer, who seemed lovely. It’s so protected, you walk into the room, and they say, “Can we take your phone?” The screen comes up and it’s watermarked and black and white. It’s like viewing the Navy’s war plan.

McShane has a lot to say at EW about GoT, the Deadwood movie, American Gods and more so check that at the source!


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Producer and episode writer Bryan Cogman talks to Entertainment Weekly as well about filming the Hound’s return.

It was my favorite week on Game of Thrones because it’s a beautiful little three-act play. Very much on purpose it tonally doesn’t really feel like Game of Thrones until the end when everyone gets slaughtered. Ian McShane is a New Age ex-warrior with a painful history of violence, and he’s found his own flock trying to rebuild their lives. He sees Sandor as a candidate. He recognizes in Sandor a bit of himself. The Hound, apart from being grateful, starts to open up to him. He’s the first and only friend he’s ever had in his life. And that was an interesting relationship to explore. The scenes have a light touch and gentleness and humanity and humor that you don’t find on the show – then the raiders ride in. The Hound is few miles away chopping wood and they come back and slaughter everybody, pushing him back into the cycle of violence.

Cogman does mention that missing “Broken Man” speech from the books some of us were missing, along with his discussion of the creation of McShane’s character:

[The character of Ray] is a combination of a couple characters in the books – with additional characteristics we added. One of those characters gives a speech in the fourth book referred to as “The Broken Man” speech by A Song of Ice and Fire fans. The speech itself didn’t make it into the episode, but it inspired the character and some of his dialogue. So the title of the episode is a nod to that speech – kind of like when we called episode 205 “The Ghost of Harrenhal,” even though that term wasn’t spoken out loud in the show.

As for the episode’s cold open with the Hound, Cogman explains, “We figured it would make his reveal more impactful if the audience hadn’t seen [McCann’s] name in the opening credits first.” So it was simply a practical choice!


Gemma Whelan talks to MakingGameofThrones today about her work this season on the show. Of  Theon and Yara’s relationship, the actress says:

I think they’re still a little broken. There’s just enough light peeping through the cracks in their relationship to warrant a little hope for Yara, but she’s still far from trusting him after everything that’s happened. But that was a really nicely edited look the two of us shared at the kingsmoot: “Are you serious?” “Yeah, I’m serious.” “Are we doing this?” “Yeah, we’re doing this.”

Yara’s moment with Theon last night was “as close, sentimental and emotional the Ironborn get as family members,” she says. She explains:

She really believes he can overcome this trauma – she wouldn’t trust in a weakling or a fool. She knows she’s got a job on her hands to bring him back, but she wants to and she needs him because there’s nothing like a family ally. She wouldn’t risk everything if she didn’t deep down trust that he wasn’t going to come back and be true to his former self and to her again.

Another question clarifies an area of interest brought to light last night: her character’s sexuality. The interviewer, assuming Yara is gay, asks the actress if she knew about this:

Whelan says, “No, I had no idea! I reckon she’s any way. I don’t think she’d limit herself to one or another. Anything goes. Get the job done with whatever if fun and interesting.”

Check out the rest of the interview at MakingGameofThrones.com!

 


Sansa Jon Davos

Sophie Turner also talks to MakingGameofThrones this week about playing the game and Sansa’s relationship with Jon Snow. The actress says:

It’s definitely fair to say that Sansa is learning how to “play the game.” She’s had a front seat in watching master manipulators and big players in the game and she’s been learning silently from them. But she’s certainly not done learning how to play just yet. It’s been a slow process. She never had the “Dany emerging from the flames” moment. It’s been more gradual.

Things between Jon and Sansa have been a little strained since their emotional reunion this season. Turner says, “It’s going to be a big adjustment for him to listen to her and view her as an equal, especially when it comes to war tactics, simply because she’s a woman.”

For those who are concerned Sansa may not be there for Jon, I wouldn’t worry too much. Turner explains more of Sansa’s perspective, saying, “None of them know what she’s been through or what she’s learnt. But at the end of the day, Sansa and Jon have each other’s backs.”


In this week’s “Inside the Episode,” David Benioff and D.B. Weiss discuss the Hound’s new life and direction, Jon’s speeches, meeting Lady Mormont, and Yara and Theon’s relationship.

Rory McCann and Ian McShane talk the Hound’s return, Brother Ray, and the changes in Sandor Clegane.

Kristofer Hivju and Liam Cunningham share their insight into the tough job of selling the wildlings on fighting for the cause.

244 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Things between Jon and Sansa have been a little strained since their emotional reunion this season. Turner says, “It’s going to be a big adjustment for him to listen to her and view her as an equal, especially when it comes to war tactics, simply because she’s a woman.”

      Hmmmmmmmmm. Very interesting. Could explain the motivation behind a lot of what she’s doing right now. Why is she “throwing shade” at Davos? To get Jon to listen to her opinion (i.e. “Don’t listen to this guy, I’M telling you, we should go a different route.”) Why is she not telling him certain things? Because he’s not listening to her (example, his instance that they march on WF now (instead of waiting) and his line about fighting with the army you have, not the one you want). Interesting comments. Puts these interactions in a different light.

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    2. So Ian McShane will be in the DVD commentary? Wow that’s pretty important for a guest character. Has this happened before? Anyway, he was truly amazing so I don’t think anyone minds. Can’t wait for episode 8!

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    3. That scene of the Hound begging Arya to end his life just ruins me every time. So glad Rory is back!

      Kind of funny to have a post-mortem for a one episode character. I wish we could have had Ian for a bit longer.

      I want Sandor and Tormund to be buddies at some point in the future. I would watch that on repeat.

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    4. Ian mcshane did a good job and glad he is going to be in commentary ..

      Can we just stop with this ” ooh dany had this big moment or big dragons ” …
      Its not that having dragons PR walking out fire made her character ..of course it had helped her show her strength and push her power base ..

      But let’s go back to the season 1 and GOT shall we ..
      The very moment we see dany we get to see that she listens to what people actually say and think in the streets and doesn’t have this dreams that people are waiting for her ..

      She questions illyrio’s motives and suspects that he is not completely what he says and doesn’t buy into the crap of his like viserys does ..

      Even though she was forced into the marriage which she never wanted she adopted and made him love her and she chose to adopt the culture and becomes a survivor and respected among the culture…

      She asks the realistic questions about dothraki against westeros and smallfolks to jorah..

      She always showed the interest to learn and ask questions ..

      Its not just tits and dragons when its comes to dany or only having big speeches or big moments

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    5. Dissapointed we never got the broken man speech, but it really wouldn’t have fit in the context of the show…

      Ian was amazing, and they made the right choice by allowing the story to be anchored by Rory rather than having a random character meetup.

      Bryan Cogman is amazing

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    6. Great episode. It kept my interest through, and, for once, no fart jokes! The BwB slaughtering everyone for no reason seemed a bit unrealistic, but I’m over it… at least Sandor is back!
      Lastly, learnt is not a word, and just sounds ridiculous! Seriously, imagine a kid saying “Today I learnt…” and you would assume that kid had redneck parents who think the earth is flat. Typos are one thing (though still unacceptable for a publication), but dumbed-down fake words are the worst.
      Oh well, WiC is starting to seem like they’ll let anyone write who says they like GoT, and know how to type, so I suppose there’s no reason to complain, other than I am incredibly tired.

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    7. Really looking forward to the DVD commentary with Ian McShane. That will be great.

      I also agree with Gemma Whelan’s opinion on Yara’s sexuality. She is a woman who likes to have fun. Certain posters have felt the need to come up with extended essays on the reasons behind Yara’s sexuality and what it means etc, etc. Gemma Whelan has summed it up pretty succinctly in a couple of sentences.

      Sansa is far from being a master manipulator at the moment, but as Sophie says I wouldn’t expect her to be, and it should be a gradual process. Both Sansa and Jon have been shown to be pretty naive this season, and if it wasn’t for the ever-reliable Ser Davos I don’t know where they’d be. I’m not sure what she brings to the table in terms of war tactics, apart from knowledge about Ramsay’s behaviour, but we shall see.

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    8. Mihnea,

      He really seems like a natural fit for GoT. Would’ve loved to see him and his old buddies Charles Dance and Stephen Dillaane onscreen together.

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    9. None of them know what she’s been through or what she’s learnt. But at the end of the day, Sansa and Jon have each other’s backs.”

      OH PLEASE FOREVER!!!

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    10. RosanaZugey,

      Maybe we need to get an interview with Kit about his take on Jon and Sansa. AFAIK, he hasn’t given one. I think it’s a two way street. Sure, Jon may not understand what she has been through, I doubt Sansa understands what he has been through either, his coming battles with the WWs, or his perspective on why he wants to march on Winterfell ASAP. Maybe Stannis losing due to a snowstorm has something to do with it?

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    11. Angeala95,

      At first, she was a commodity. But after the Red Wedding I think he began to project some of his own early life on to her-not having a family, being alone in a hostile world, being hunted etc. I don’t know what his ultimate goal was after loosing out on ransom 2x, but I do believe the Hound was intent upon seeing it through to ensure Arya’s safety as best he knew how.

      I desperately want a reunion, and to see Arya forgive him for Mycah’s murder. But not as much as I want the Nymeria SuperPack…

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    12. The place Jon and company were camping at Davos mentioned Stannis camped there too and it was well fortified with the mountains and was also a good spot because it had a river…

      Isn’t that the same place Ramsay infiltrated though? Why did he say it was a good place to camp out?

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    13. DireWolfHeart,

      Also, Seasons 3 & 4 were telling stories about love-hate relationships. They did a really good job of turning Arya – Sandor into a love-hate relationship. Having Sandor realize that he basically had paternal feelings for her fed that well.

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    14. ghost of winterfell,

      Yes, talking about being sexually abused is really hard in modern society. It would be even harder in a society where wives are basically viewed as sexual playthings for their husbands.

      And as for Jon discussing his dying: as Spock told McCoy, unless you also had died, then you would have no context for understanding it. My bet is that it’s the same thing here.

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    15. HelloThere: Dissapointed we never got the broken man speech, but it really wouldn’t have fit in the context of the show…

      Was just re-reading it and noticed this:

      If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they’re fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens.

      That could of been a pretty big laugh if Ray said the part about chickens to the Hound. Also, this kind of applies to the BwB and maybe could’ve been used as some are scratching their heads at how the BwB “turned bad.”

      Here is the full speech:
      http://genius.com/George-r-r-martin-a-feast-for-crows-brienne-v-broken-men-speech-annotated

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    16. Rhaenys Stark:
      So Ian McShane will be in the DVD commentary? Wow that’s pretty important for a guest character. Has this happened before? Anyway, he was truly amazing so I don’t think anyone minds. Can’t wait for episode 8!

      How can anyone NOT want to listen to the amazing Ian McShane doing anything? LOL!

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    17. I love GoT morning after discussions. The fan theories about Arya-Waif flying around the net today are getting bananas. Best one: Arya and The Waif are the same person.

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    18. dwm,

      Learnt was said by Sophie, not someone at WiC (although I assume you meant WotW). It’s more commonly used in British English than American English.

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    19. ghost of winterfell:
      RosanaZugey,

      Maybe we need to get an interview with Kit about his take on Jon and Sansa. AFAIK, he hasn’t given one. I think it’s a two way street. Sure, Jon may not understand what she has been through, I doubt Sansa understands what he has been through either, his coming battles with the WWs,or his perspective on why he wants to march on Winterfell ASAP. Maybe Stannis losing due to a snowstorm has something to do with it?

      Ooo, yeah. A Kit perspective would be good to help flesh this out. And I think you bring up a great point about them not understanding each other’s experiences, or not putting as much weight on those experiences as they should have. I mean, if we assume that they both told their stories to each other in the time from the hug to, “the soup is good”, nothing about their individual experiences changed the other one’s outlook. Jon was determined to be done with fighting and live a peaceful life, regardless of what was done to Sansa or who held Winterfell. Likewise, Sansa seemed/seems to be indifferent to the fact that he died and he’s emotionally, physically and mentally spent. She just wants Winterfell back and wants Ramsay to pay. Their individual stories did not changed the other one’s goals or motivations and perhaps that’s why they didn’t include the conversation. Because it had no bearing on how their characters developed, or what they each want, or how the story moves forward.

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    20. Darkstar,

      Well they did say ‘The Night is dark and full of terrors’ and we know that the BwB members follow the Red God faith. I guess everything will be explained in the next episode.

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    21. Darkstar:
      Do we know for certain that those were BWB, and not some random baddies?

      The yellow cloak made me think he was supposed to be

      Lem Lemoncloak.

      They also said they were “protecting the people” and “The Night is dark and full of terrors.” So, I’m pretty sure they were supposed to be BwB.

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    22. Darkstar,

      Well based on what we see in the episode
      “For the night is dark and full of terrors”
      And then Sandor saying it was them. It could have been them

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    23. I know it’s already been several times, but…

      That cold-open unveiling of Sandor rolling right into the opening credits was sooo great.

      HYPE!

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    24. I’m sure he’d listen to her more if she…you know….told him about the Vale army to stop him from rushing into battle. Jon listened to her suggestion about the Tully army, allowed her in the strategy meeting, and let her do the opening speech to Lyanna Mormont. She also got served by Glover (they both did, really), so I’m not surprised he is listening to Davos (who has war experience, saved his life, and got him House Mormont).

      Anyway, I love Doctor Yara. Glad we got to look into Theon’s post-Ramsay mind frame.

      I hope The Hound does something amazing to justify the screentime. Seems like they are building up to something there…

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    25. Dee:
      None of them know what she’s been through or what she’s learnt. But at the end of the day, Sansa and Jon have each other’s backs.”

      OH PLEASE FOREVER!!!

      Yes, I need this artificial Stark drama to end!

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    26. A few things –

      1) I’ve posted a few times that Jon and Sansa in some ways are – to the outside world – the least Stark, and yet they’re both the ones having to lay a claim to that name. It’s brilliant, but it’s also interesting because they don’t know each other at all. They clearly love each other, but they don’t actually KNOW each other. Or, they didn’t like things about each other that are coming out: Jon is visibly annoyed with her when she’s scoffing at Davos and she’s frustrated he’s being so stubborn.

      2) I posted in the open chat that some of her snark to Davos might come from the fact that she wants Jon to listen to HER. But she’s going about it ENTIRELY wrong, which is what is so annoying. If you want him to listen to you, how about telling him about the Vale?

      3) At the end, this rolling lie seems to be adding tension for tension’s sake. It is as if D&D just decided, “eh can’t have Jon and Sansa work together too easily, need to keep this brewing lie between them.” If the goal is that she wants to have a stake and be listened to, this is such an unnecessary way to do it.

      Here’s the thing. I think she WILL tell Jon. This isn’t some anti-Jon powerplay, and I think he’ll know about the Vale. She probably just didn’t want him to refuse.

      At the same time, I think Jon is going to be angry with her. You can already see in this episode, he’s peeved with her. He cringes when she starts talking to Lord Glover, but most critically he’s irritated when she’s talking about Davos. He’s not really happy with her as it is. Even when she does come clean, even when she says “oh hey got you an army,” you think Jon’s going to be happy with the multiple lies she told?

      And the worst part of all this is that she’s gone crawling back to LF. This was obviously going to happen, because I’ve said repeatedly that her arc in the book and quite likely in the whole story revolves around him. But to have refused him and now gone back and begged him puts her in a position of weakness AGAIN.

      Here’s my real problem: what is she promising LF? AGAIN without consulting Jon!!!! Her letter says “and I shall see to it that you”. If she’s promising something to him for his help, well LF’s help doesn’t come without strings.

      In the end, how is there ANY development for Sansa? She lies to her brother about LF, then she goes back and has to ask LF to save her again. She doesn’t look like she’s learned anything. She tried to do it on her own and she failed, and now she needs LF again.

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    27. Nadia,

      Oh hey didn’t even read the article, but what Sophie says —

      ” There’s always been tension between Jon and Sansa, since they were young. They were never particularly close, and I don’t think those sibling frustrations and quarrels will ever go away. Also, in Jon’s eyes, Sansa is still the 13-year-old naive girl whose greatest passions were very much the material, seemingly unimportant things in life.”

      http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/sophie-turners-sansa-is-more-powerful-than-ever

      Not only are they the least Stark (bastard and Bolton) but they’re also the least likely to work together. But FFS Sansa the solution is not lying and then turning back to LF.

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    28. “It’s going to be a big adjustment for him to listen to her and view her as an equal, especially when it comes to war tactics, simply because she’s a woman.”

      And what better way to aid in that process than lying to his face about how you heard about the Blackfish and now sending ravens behind his back seeking military support from the guy who sold you off to be brutalized. That’s a great way to get Jon to see you as an equal.

      I’m glad to hear her say they’ll have each others backs. This manufactured Jon/Sansa tension nonsense will hopefully end soon.

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    29. While Sansa’s intentions are good, well it could’ve been handled a bit better. Also Jon is a bit naive. He’s going to war but not to win it at this point. Surely this lie even with good intentions to keep LF away would hurt Jon because Sansa and Jon are family, so expect some intense convrsation before or perhaps after battle on war tactics, how to handle things onwards and this lie. Nice touch on war tactics but Sansa don’t know much about it.

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    30. orange,

      Yeah that was my biggest wtf. You can tell she just wants to be heard and listened to, even in that earlier ‘war council’ meeting. The way to be valued and listened to is to tell the truth about the Vale and then plan a battle around that, not lying and going back and forth on it.

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    31. Nadia,

      Honestly, I have some concerns about the LF – Sansa connection – I feel like a broken record but I am so over him at this point and want him to die. He can help them and die after.

      I thought maybe they could have done it this way. Maybe she would not have asked for help but LF would have showed up anyway to help them. I don’t know. I just don’t like/understand why they need to add the lie in there.

      It doesn’t make sense to me.

      Though Sophie saying they will always have each other’s backs may mean something later. At least I hope.

      I love Sansa, and I love how far she’s come. But I HATE LF… that is my issue. he has a hidden agenda and hiding this from your brother who you asked to risk his life when all he wanted to do was go tanning in Dorne, she owes him the truth.

      Will just have to wait and see.

      Its bothering me so much I just wish there was a filming spoiler so I can get my answer now LOL

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    32. hexonx,

      Yeah but we did not know his name on the show, and I didn’t read the books
      but I assumed based on his mention of the night is dark and full of terrors as well as Sandor’s comment after

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    33. Sue the Fury,

      My apologies! You can delete my comment if it’s superfluous!

      Anyway, I almost think it would be funny for Sansa to order Littlefinger disposed of without learning about his role in Ned’s downfall. (Re: Wanting him to die.)

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    34. Also I don’t see any evidence from the show that Jon Snow would look down upon Sansa and not value her opinion simply because she’s a woman. He personally handed the dragon glass to Karsi at Hardhome and fought alongside her, was saved by the woman at Craster’s Keep, then told the women of Craster’s Keep to return to Castle Black with him an they refused. Did he force them to anyway? Of course his relationship with the tough as nails Ygritte and not to mention his relationship with Sansa’s own sister, Arya. These are examples from the show alone. Did he look down upon these women? Not value what they had to say?

      I find it a bizarre quote that doesn’t match. It’s artificial tension between the two that I hope ends soon. I don’t see a point to it.

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    35. MVC,

      If he helps them, she cant kill him. She owes him shit if he helps them. Even though technically the Knights of the Vale are Robyns and not LF

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    36. Dee,

      Seriously. I mean I know a few filming spoilers but I don’t think any of them make me appreciate this situation at all.

      If Sansa’s motivation is to get Jon and all these people to listen to her, she’s gone about it ENTIRELY the wrong way. If she said – I can command the Vale forces – you think they wouldn’t have listened??

      Instead, she’s frustrated he’s not listening even though she’s the one lying to him, and she’s the one whose naiveté is being smacked down by the North, and so she just behind his back has to crawl back to LF?

      It makes me so mad, mostly because this all seems like artificial drama, but also because I just do not understand how this makes her empowered at all?? She again needs LF and can’t save herself without him.

      Plus I just think Jon is not going to be thrilled when he finds out. I just wonder what the cost is, because she’s clearly promising him something in that letter.

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    37. This episode made me care about everything but The North for once, and North wasn’t bad at all. It was brilliant in that sense. As much as I loved many previous episodes, it was amazing to see such a dialogue and character centric episode, for a change.

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    38. Dee,

      Yeah, I remember you haven’t read the books. They didn’t name in the show (although the official GoT website names him, not that it would mean anything unless you read the books). Not really a spoiler though as there are other clues that they are from the BwB, as you say.

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    39. Rhaenys Stark,

      Well, I assume since ive seen this asked before , that theyre not in the preview. As much as I would love to see the aftermath of the North and Sansa/LF shit – I have a feeling we wont see them till episode 9 🙁

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    40. The Manderly’s have been mentioned like 3 times this season, no doubt they are going to unexpectedly come into the battle to help fight against the Boltons.

      It is known. Hopefully we get that Manderly speech before they storm in!!

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    41. Dee,

      I honestly don’t remember if he was in Season 3, so I need to go back and watch those scenes to see if he was part of the BWB then. I do, however, know him from the books. I don’t want to spoil anyone with book lore or theories, so I’ll leave it at that.

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    42. orange,

      Yes. He listened to her about Blackfish, she’s the one that lied.

      And frankly, if we’re assuming they had a conversation about everything that happened, would he think her so frivolous? I mean she jumped off the walls at Winterfell and trekked through the North to survive.

      The only time he got angry or dismissed her was when she tried to foolishly pull rank on Glover and Jon KNEW what was coming and when she was snarking at Davos.

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    43. Connor:
      The Manderly’s have been mentioned like 3 times this season, no doubt they are going to unexpectedly come into the battle to help fight against the Boltons.

      It is known. Hopefully we get that Manderly speech before they storm in!!

      That casting call that sure seemed like it was for Wyman Manderly making a stirring speech and unexpectedly switching alliances happens before the battle, while Ramsey, Umbers and Karstarks are there awaiting the start of the battle.

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    44. Bob: What the heck has happened to Melisandre??!

      Presumably, they are keeping her out-of-sight. A red witch would be only slightly more welcome than Wildlings, after all.

      Flayed Potatoes: Yes, I need this artificial Stark drama to end!

      The drama seems to be mostly in the imaginations of some people here. I certainly have seen nothing of it on the screen.

      Nadia: It makes me so mad, mostly because this all seems like artificial drama, but also because I just do not understand how this makes her empowered at all?? She again needs LF and can’t save herself without him.

      The story this season is about the personal costs of making allies. In many cases, it involves making alliances with people you do not like. Sansa’s arc here is to get her to realize that the world owes her nothing because of her Stark name: loyalty must be earned, and what loyalty her family had earned had subsequently been squandered.

      And now she’s going to have to accept an alliance that she does not want to accept. That’s the story: not “empowered.”

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    45. Dee: If he was in season 3, then he should have recognized the hound.

      Don’t think he was!

      Yeah, I’m pretty sure he wasn’t. They didn’t necessarily have to make him Lem but I see it as an Easter Egg for book readers.

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    46. Ok, two questions:

      1) Right at the beginning if the episode, just when we see a smith (but not his face), did anyone else thought “OMG, Gendry”?
      2) Any ideas on why people just stare at Arya without doing anything? I may need to rewatch that, but didn’t you get the impression that she is, well, no one? Or it may well be that the Braavosi are real jerks.
      To be honest I kind of expected Jaquen to come at her rescue.

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    47. Connor,

      BUT

      there’s no evidence that Manderlys are even at the battle

      Tim McInnerny is a pretty good actor to get for one scene. If anyone is switching sides, I wonder if it’s not the Glovers and he makes that speech?

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    48. Dee,

      No he wasn’t in season 3, I don’t think. At least not the same actor.

      Still confused about the BWB becoming total bad guys who murder peaceful people. And Thoros is still with them, he is confirmed as cast for this season. Weird.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Nadia,

      They have been mentioned like 3 times though. Why would they mention them 3 times this season if they weren’t going to do anything. Just because there is no evidence doesn’t mean they won’t be at the battle. There wasn’t any evidence for Benjen’s return but he came back this season.

      You never know.

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    50. I guess. But I don’t think Jon is going to White Harbor. It is so so far from where they are – closer to the Riverlands. Which means if it does happen, it would maybe be if Sansa goes to the Vale and stops there, and that speech is only to her. That would make me supremely annoyed, if Jon is just hanging out in camp preparing to die.

      It would just be strange for Sansa to ride into battle with all these houses behind her.

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    51. Bob,

      In the end they are a band of outlaws. It’s also possible these three went “rogue” and Beric and Thoros may not necessarily approve.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Bob,

      Either they have changed their ways, or these guys are the bad ones of the bunch – or they are extremist Lord of Light army and slaughtered these people because they believe in something else.

      Second time someone mentions this confirmation – it is a spoiler and should be covered! LOL
      I already got ruined on this two days ago
      Maybe cover it if you can still edit your comment

        Quote  Reply

    53. Nadia,

      I think the Manderlys will be alongside Ramsay, Umbers and Karstarks just before the battle starts, and then Wyman will say the speech and switch sides. That’s how I think it will play out.

      I hope so!

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    54. New crackpot theory – after all this is over, Sansa returns to her book plot to ride south to the Vale/Riverlands with LF AND MEETS LSH!!!

        Quote  Reply

    55. Nadia,

      There’s no indication the Glovers were either, though.

      Nadia,

      The other issue is that, after she provided the initial impetus to march on the Boltons in 604, the bulk of her advice has been wrong, and seems to exist mainly to make Davos look good. Though she was totally right about meeting with Cerwyn rather than Jon and Davos’ strange desire to march post-haste to certain defeat.

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    56. Odd ball theory here… When Jon Snow and Sansa had their 1st post-speech talk, it seemed like they were flirting with each other. If it is revealed that R + L = J, could Jon take Sansa as his queen (targ, cousin marriage, incestual GoT favorite.!)

      Also, the letter Sansa wrote could have been sent to the blackfish. Any chance he gives up the castle to take the remaining troops to assist her at Winterfell?

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    57. Connor,

      I am keeping fingers and toes crossed that this is true!!!!!!

      I think the only way it happens is if somehow Ramsay hurts or kills Rickon or the Northern lords find out he does something to Rickon. It’s one thing to not back Jon/Sansa but maybe some houses couldn’t support Ramsay if he hurts a Stark MALE heir?

      I go back and forth on it. I want the Manderly speech so badly because it’s an iconic book moment, but the show just basically skipped another iconic speech.

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    58. Shadowpro:
      Also, the letter Sansa wrote could have been sent to the blackfish.

      She already sent the Blackfish a message via Brienne. Another message would be superfluous. Not to mention, why would she be so visibly upset about writing such a missive?

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    59. Shadowpro,

      What first speech talk? This episode they just seemed super annoyed with each other.

      I think it’s never happening. The reason people are even thinking it is because Kit and Sophie just happen to be attractive and have good chemistry, and seeing two adults so happy to see each other and seeing them together for the first time on screen makes people go “oh.” But they refer to each other as brother and sister throughout. Even if that changes into cousins, it doesn’t change how they’ve thought of each other.

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    60. So much of this language is frustrating. It’s annoying in a Middle Ages patriarchal way, but also in the modern sense that SO many viewers think that Jon is somehow in charge of Sansa or that she owes him more honesty or forthrightness than any other character on GoT. Jon “allowed” her in the strategy meeting, he “let” her talk to Glover? He’s her brother, not her Lord. I’m unsure why people think she owes him fealty? Does anyone say that Sansa “lets” Jon do things? Did Sansa “let” Jon talk to the Wildlings? As the person who’s basically dragging Jon along into retaking Winterfell, she has as much, if not more, right to be there than him. I’m just chalking up Jon’s recalcitrance and uber-brooding to being dead, but he looks and acts like a kicked direwolf puppy.

      Not only does Sansa’s long varied history with men give her reason to distrust Davos, but even Brienne, someone she seems to trust implicitly, counsels her to be wary. She literally says “Davos and the Red Woman helped a man murder his own brother with blood magic. And when Stannis paid for his crime, where were they? Already out looking for a leader with better prospects.” I mean, he was Team Stannis for ages, and that didn’t end well. What basis does she have to trust him? Viewers, of course, know and can gauge Davos’s trustworthiness and character, but Sansa has LITERALLY just met him. It’d be strangely out of character for her to be so trusting of people she has just met.

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    61. I think if the plan was to get Jon to hook up with Sansa or Arya, the show would have aged up the characters more from the beginning. Didn’t GURM also have a say in the casting process?

        Quote  Reply

    62. Shadowpro: Also, the letter Sansa wrote could have been sent to the blackfish. Any chance he gives up the castle to take the remaining troops to assist her at Winterfell?

      She said it was too risky, could be intercepted by Ramsay. That’s why she sent Brienne in person. Apparently she is not worried about Ramsay intercepting the raven to LF?

      I don’t really see the Tully’s being any help. They are surrounded by Lannisters and Freys. Even if they gave up Riverrun I doubt the Lannisters and Freys would just let them go support one of their enemies.

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    63. I’m loving Kit’s acting choices this season. He’s so much better at emoting. The uncertainty in his eyes!!

        Quote  Reply

    64. Mihnea,

      I’m so sorry Mihnea but no one’s thoughts is more relevant than Sophie when it comes to Sansa – and D&D themselves of course – she always have the most thoughtful insights into HER character including this very recent interview (same is true about Maisie and Arya too in my opinion)

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    65. 1) Don’t overthink this. Sansa is writing to Littlefinger.
      2) I honestly don’t think Jon discounts Sansa because she’s a woman. But because she’s …well, Sansa. And you can be a strong, powerful, tough woman (or man) and not have the slightest head for tactics and combat.
      3) Please tell me Stannis buried what was left of Shireen and Selyse and Davos won’t stumble across something. Please.
      4) I am more interested in what could happen if Brienne not only convinces the Blackfish, but JAIME, to help. He swore an oath to the Stark girls, after all. Probably too fanciful, but…
      5) Clegane Bowl is too easy. I’m not entirely convinced the Trial by Combat happens the way we think anyway. Far more likely that the Sparrow just outmaneuvers Cersei again. He knows the Mountain exists and isn’t going in without a plan.

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    66. With so much shade thrown on Robb in this episode and the re-introduction of Freys, I wonder if they are trying to make Walder and Co. look sympathetic? If that’s even possible…

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    67. Great postmortem, especially the video interviews.

      One item: “Turner says, “It’s going to be a big adjustment for him to listen to her and view her as an equal, especially when it comes to war tactics, simply because she’s a woman.”

      That and – let us be frank – some of her political and military advice has been problematic, honestly. She clearly overestimated the level of Northern support for the Starks, and badly underestimated how hard a sell her cause would be. She doesn’t really understand the problem of weather and logistics for an army, either. But why should she? She’s had little to no experience with these things. She’s learning. In the meantime, Jon really is wise to listen close to Ser Davos, who *does* have a lot of experience and wisdom in these matters – however much it grates on Sansa, who is internalizing too much of Brienne’s skepticism of Ser Davos (which is understandable but not well founded).

      This isn’t a gender thing. Lyanna Mormont may be only 10 but she’s already a natural at this sort of thing. But she’s been learning it hands-on, every day, for some time now.

      Jon will just have to be patient with her as she continues on her learning curve. And keep listening to Ser Davos.

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    68. I have “Jon Snow” levels of nothing-knowingness.. but I went under the premise that the lay-Septon’s crimes were fairly recent, and the BwB wasn’t going to let bygones be bygones. They came back to hang him, as they hang Lannisters, Freys, and Mountain’s Men, and the other folks tried to stop them, with a bad result.

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    69. WorfWWorfington: 2) I honestly don’t think Jon discounts Sansa because she’s a woman. But because she’s …well, Sansa. And you can be a strong, powerful, tough woman (or man) and not have the slightest head for tactics and combat.

      Bingo.

      So far, at each turn where Sansa and Ser Davos have disagreed, Ser Davos has generally been a good deal more right than Sansa has. Jon isn’t blind to that. It also doesn’t mean he doesn’t love Sansa or value her input.

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    70. Athelstane,

      Plus Davos has been right all the time so far. With Stannis I mean. Not his fault Stannis was under crazed influence.
      I love Sansa, and although I am glad to see her really dynamic this season, you don’t get to become a great war strategist overnight.

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    71. Flayed Potatoes:
      I’m loving Kit’s acting choices this season. He’s so much better at emoting. The uncertainty in his eyes!!

      Through the entire Glover meeting, his eyes and body language were basically saying to me: “Geez, I can’t really blame him; I’m not sure I’d throw the dice and commit to us, either.” Which, unfortunately, isn’t always making him the best salesman for his own cause right now.

      Whereas he was pretty good with the Wildlings – confident body language and tone. But that’s because he knows they’ll be wiped out if they don’t join. Their calculus is different from that of the Glovers.

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    72. After reading all these comments on Sansa, I feel like Sansa from S1 when Septa Mordane goes into yet another lecture: “Oh wait, I just realized. . .I don’t care”.

      Sophie was perfect casting from the start.

      🙂

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    73. Athelstane,

      Lyanna was raised by a woman who had to survive on Bear Island. She was raised in a world where one man joined the Night’s Watch and the other had to flee. She wasn’t raised to be married off someday like Sansa was.

      I’m loving just how much the North DOES remember. It remembers the Stark name, but it also remembers that Robb executed a house leader when other options existed AND failed to hold himself to high standards over honoring his marriage pact.

      It remembers that Catelyn freed Jaime Lannister when holding him could have swayed much of the war, maybe even won it.

      It remembers that Robb got a lot of people killed and that Sansa WILLINGLY ntered a marriage pact with the Boltons (Yes, she didn’t willingly do anything else in that marriage, but she walked into Winterfell of her own consent)

      If I’m a Northman, I really don’t follow any Starks now that Ned is gone.

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    74. dwm,

      Actually, both ‘learnt’ and ‘learned’ are correct. It is quite acceptable for children to say what they ‘learnt’ at school without being a ‘redneck’. ‘Learned’ is usually preferred in more formal /academic situations.

      http://grammarist.com/spelling/learned-learnt/

      Hope you ‘learnt’ something new today. ?

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    75. Sou:
      Athelstane,

      Plus Davos has been right all the time so far. With Stannis I mean. Not his fault Stannis was under crazed influence.
      I love Sansa, and although I am glad to see her really dynamic this season, you don’t get to become a great war strategist overnight.

      Right.

      Well – I doubt Sansa is *ever* going to be a great war strategist. And she doesn’t have to be! Lady Olenna is undoubtedly not a great war strategist, but then that is not her role. She’s a superb politician, and that’s enough. That’s what Sansa could aim at being.

      Sansa has grown, but you can see her problem: not enough experience, too quickly internalizing advice she’s getting from people around her. Littlefinger sowed doubts about Jon, which she internalized by keeping her meeting with him secret; Brienne has doubts (unfounded) about Ser Davos, which she’s internalized on top of a certain resentment of Ser Davos’s influence over Jon and how his advice often runs counter to hers.

      One wishes they could have a scene to clear the air between Ser Davos and Sansa, for her to appreciate who he really is and what he’s gone through.

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    76. Athelstane,

      Jon also never seems comfortable because he was raised “The Bastard of Winterfell.” One more thing to blame Catelyn for.

      Robert would have drunkenly legitimized 1,000 of Ned’s bastards, if only to make fun of him for it later. One word from Catelyn and Jon’s life is so much better. But she couldn’t love a motherless boy.

      If the R+L = J is true, then it seems to me that whatever Ned promised Lyanna, he didn’t deliver. I can’t believe she’d have wanted this for Jon.

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    77. WorfWWorfington: It remembers that Robb got a lot of people killed and that Sansa WILLINGLY ntered a marriage pact with the Boltons (Yes, she didn’t willingly do anything else in that marriage, but she walked into Winterfell of her own consent)

      And I’m glad they’ve acknowledged that. It makes the story more believable, for one. It also acts as a check on Sansa, who’s being forced to learn some more hard lessons about the world she wants to help rule.

      They’ve given us a lot of evidence that the North *does* remember, and that there is still *some* real reservoir of respect and admiration for the Starks. But it’s also being brought home to Sansa just how desperate their cause is, as Ser Davos was trying to tell her. When Robb Stark called his banners, he only had to send out ravens, and they all came out. Whereas Jon & Sansa have to go door to door in person, hat in hand, to beg for support, even from very minor houses. It’s an unnatural state of political affairs – and Jon and Ser Davos appreciate that more readily than Sansa has until now.

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    78. Athelstane,

      If you think about it, really none of the three have much land war strategy experience. Davos has sea experience but mostly as a smuggler not a fighter. He’s not even a great warrior (“apologies for what you are about to see”). He may have picked up a little from Stannis but I can’t imagine too much. Jon is great for leading men into battle but he doesn’t have any strategy experience either. Of the two battles he was in; The Wall was Thorne’s strategy to begin the battle and then he took over and held on with grit and determination and Hardhome was basically just a stay alive and retreat situation. And obviously Sansa has no battle experience. The Wildlings are fierce fighters but they are mostly raider types rather than field battle types.

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    79. Athelstane,

      And that’s only going to get worse when she witnesses Davos completely lose his shit when he figures out what happened to Shireen.

      BUT… and this just occurred to me, what is the worst that will happen? Is she really stupid enough to promise Littlefinger anything but “OK, I forgive you” in return for the army? She’s not going to make him Hand of the Queen of the North, is she? She’s not going to marry him? Or marry Robyn, right?

      Please tell me she’s not that dumb

        Quote  Reply

    80. WorfWWorfington: BUT… and this just occurred to me, what is the worst that will happen? Is she really stupid enough to promise Littlefinger anything but “OK, I forgive you” in return for the army? She’s not going to make him Hand of the Queen of the North, is she? She’s not going to marry him? Or marry Robyn, right?

      Please tell me she’s not that dumb

      Littlefinger seemingly offered his help without asking anything in return. Sure he is probably going to ask for something after the fact but that doesn’t mean she has to give it to him.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Flora Linden,

      This is exactly how i’m dealing with all of this recent negativity towards Sansa, just rolling my eyes. (nothing new for me though, after all this is Sansa that we’re talking about here)

        Quote  Reply

    82. WorfWWorfington,

      Well even given all that, if you’re a northman and the choice is Boltons or Starks, which do you choose? I’m guessing if the Starks’ odds are seen as at all approaching 50/50, most remaining houses will back the Starks because the Boltons are just the worst-

      Notice the Riverlands the Freys mentioned that other houses started rebelling after the Tullys retook Riverrun- and I’m sure the other Riverlands’ houses are not happy with the Tullys (For thee same reasons the northern houses are not happy with the Starks)- but if the Tullys have any decent chance you’d back them over the Freys in a heartbeat.

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    83. Mihnea,

      Well her views about Jon is important if they includes topics directly related to Sansa, after all her character’s storyline this season is tied to that of Jon but when they’re about Jon’s very personal emotions yes i can agree that those would be just her thoughts as simply a fan nothing more (like the rest of us).

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    84. I loved almost everything about last night’s episode, especially Ian and Rory’s scenes. I have to admit I never expected to see the Hound again after Arya left him, but boy am I glad to have been wrong. It’s been such a fantastic season so far and I imagine it will only get better in this final 3 episode stretch. Saddens me that we are getting so close to the end, but if they can sustain this level of quality and perhaps even exceed it in the final 2 seasons, then the show will easily go down in history as the greatest TV drama.
      On a side note, I found it really hard to accept that Arya could get surprised like that knowing full well that the Waif and Jaqen would come after her. Not only that, but that looked like a fatal stab wound, but worry not, here comes plot armor to save the day. I thought maybe she would run into Lady Crane to save her and deliver her to some kind of medical help, but we see that she’s running around Matrix style in the following episode so I guess we just have to sigh, shrug and roll with it.

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    85. hexonx,

      This is true but I guess Jon has the advantage of having been taught by a maister and trained by a master-at-arms. Robb was a respected strategist and he received the same education than Jon did so I think Jon knows his stuff, even if only in theory. But nothing beats experience.

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    86. jpwf,

      Yes and no.

      The Boltons would not be ideal, but the vast distances of the North mean it is harder for Ramsay to control you, so long as you keep your head down.

      What is there to follow in the Starks? a bastard who deserted the Night’s Watch? A woman who got passed around by the Lannisters and Boltons and who is more Tully than Stark anyway? Another woman no one has seen in years? A cripple no one has seen in years and everyone thinks is dead?

      And this is after Robb and Catelyn blundered their way around the war?

      Fact is, the North would be better off if some other House rose up.

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    87. Can we marvel at the show for spending so much time on Hound when there are basically 16 hours left? That tells me he’s got a major role.

      Having said that, has anyone from HBO or D&D confirmed the 13 episodes over two seasons thing? Or is it just one director?

      In other words, can HBO still throw the biggest bag of gold anyone has ever seen at the guys and get more?

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    88. Dee,

      I wasn’t talking about you Dee, you’re a favorite of mine here absolutely.

      I’m done with LF as much you are but i find her dynamics with him very interesting and that’s why i can’t wait for her to finally outmaneuver him.

      Gorgeous? To say the least, a girl named Sophie Turner plays her you remember? And she’s the most beautiful girl on this goddamn planet haha (so proud of her).

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    89. hexonx: If you think about it, really none of the three have much land war strategy experience. Davos has sea experience but mostly as a smuggler not a fighter. He’s not even a great warrior (“apologies for what you are about to see”). He may have picked up a little from Stannis but I can’t imagine too much. Jon is great for leading men into battle but he doesn’t have any strategy experience either. Of the two battles he was in; The Wall was Thorne’s strategy to begin the battle and then he took over and held on with grit and determination and Hardhome was basically just a stay alive and retreat situation. And obviously Sansa has no battle experience. The Wildlings are fierce fighters but they are mostly raider types rather than field battle types.

      I don’t disagree much.

      1) Sansa is slowly learning politics, but (naturally) knows nothing about war yet.
      2) Jon is a brilliant swordsman, and he’s rapidly becoming a capable and respected commander; but he’s never done anything on *this* scale before.
      3) Ser Davos is not a great commander, but he’s done well as what amounts to a chief of staff, both political and military. He’s been recruiting minor vassal forces and mercenaries, handled logistics, that sort of thing, for Stannis for some years – kind of a Berthier to Stannis’s Napoleon. In that role, he’s quite good, and that seems to be the role Jon is using him in. Ser Davos can’t lead, but he’s a good henchman to get things done.

      But even with that limited experience, Ser Davos has more wisdom and knowledge than Jon and Sansa (hey! they’re only 20ish, after all) put together, even if he’s not leader material himself.

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    90. Athelstane,

      To be fair, he was raised as a bastard and knew he wasn’t entitled to anything due to Cat. Even this season he was unsure about going into battle because he didn’t think any of the Northerners would fight for him. He hasn’t interacted with that many Northern lords either. Kit does a superb job of conveying the futility of the recruitment and the fact that he might die a second time. He will prove his worth to the Northern lords in battle and camp and imo show he has earned their respect (just like he earned his position as LC).

      Wildlings don’t care about rank and title, so Jon is much more comfortable dealing with them. He lived among them in season 3 and rescued thousands in season 5. It’s a different relationship.

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    91. orange:

      Also I don’t see any evidence from the show that Jon Snow would look down upon Sansa and not value her opinion simply because she’s a woman. He personally handed the dragon glass to Karsi at Hardhome and fought alongside her, was saved by the woman at Craster’s Keep, then told the women of Craster’s Keep to return to Castle Black with him an they refused. Did he force them to anyway? Of course his relationship with the tough as nails Ygritte and not to mention his relationship with Sansa’s own sister, Arya. These are examples from the show alone. Did he look down upon these women? Not value what they had to say?

      Agree. I think that’s just Sophie’s interpretation, and it doesn’t hold true to Jon’s character. Unless he says outright in the next two episodes “Quiet, you know nothing because you’re a woman!” I won’t believe it. He may, however, justifiably say that she doesn’t know anything about war, or tactics. Because she doesn’t. I love her, but she really doesn’t. She has had no opportunity to learn such a thing, so if she somehow becomes an amazing military strategist, it would be very poor writing indeed.

      She’s already shown that she doesn’t have a grasp on things in this episode. I don’t think she understands that if Jon knew the Vale were coming, it would change his and Davos’ tactics immensely. As it is, they’re hugely outnumbered and, as Davos says, they will have to plan accordingly. If they knew there was a flank coming in from the West, this would make a huge difference, and could save many lives.

      Sansa has become one of my favourite characters, and she is still evolving and learning. What she’s doing is a mistake though, imo. Who knows what the consequences will be, but I doubt she comprehends how badly it could affect the outcome. Whether this “worst case scenario” occurs or not remains to be seen. Maybe it’ll work out, and LF and the Vale will come charging in like the Rohirrm and save the day, and she’ll be vindicated. But the fact remains that her tactic is risky, and it’s not necessarily her life she’s chancing with. It’s Jon’s, Davos’, Tormund’s, and all the Willings and Northerners who have pledged allegience their cause.

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    92. Easily the worst episode of the season so far. I did love the Greyjoy and Tyrell scenes though.
      Sadly, I’m now convinced Margaery is a goner; I fear the only reason they’ve sent Olenna away is to keep one Tyrell safe in order for her to try and avenge the rest of the family (and possibly team up with Dany).
      Whatever’s happening in the last episodes in KL, it’s likely going to involve a mass killing.

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    93. I would have loved to have more time with Brother Ray but I understand there is a lot to get to in 10 episodes. It made me sad for Sandor to loose his friend.

      I think he will end the Mountain but not in a Trial by Combat.

      I loved this episode it was so rich visually and narratively.

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    94. iridium,

      Littlefinger got to her with the “half-brother” nonsense. Because she should have told Jon and Davos so they could plan for more men AND make sure it was clear that Littlefinger is not in charge when he arrives.

      People will die because of Sansa. Typical fooking Stark.

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    95. Knight of the Walkers,

      Sansa is far from being a master manipulator at the moment, but as Sophie says I wouldn’t expect her to be, and it should be a gradual process.

      Word…. and a stick of butter is not a cake – at the moment. Sophie also said that she’s had a front row seat to observe master manipulaters, did she not? Well if she hasn’t learnt yet, then when is she gonna learn? Maybe she needs some more time with Ramsey, Littlefinger and Cersai?

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    96. Does anyone know why they used Disney World as the exterior for Riverrun? I half expected a smiling, waving Mickey to pop up behind the Black Fish.

      In re-watching the episode, the Jon, Davos, Sansa visiting the Wildling camp scene could not have been more pointless. We already knew Tormund is on board with Jon and being that he’s their leader, it really served no purpose. It was cheesy too with Wun Wun saying “Snow”. The time could’ve been better spent showing Euron doing some crazy stuff on the Iron Islands.

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    97. Danny,

      Winterfell is a fortress; I can’t imagine how they’ll liberate Rickon from inside it’s walls before someone cuts his throat. There are secret passagways, and no one knows that more than Rickon who used to prowl the crypts. However, Ramsay has hounds.

      Rickon is a lost cause and I think Jon knows this. He didn’t even want to go to war to save Rickon, initially, because he knows Winterfell. So he can strike that reason off his list. What’s left:

      1. Saving the Free folk… ultimately
      That letter, presumably from Ramsay, is a trap. The Free Folk may not be in any immediate danger and they are already a devastated people, having lost 90% of thier population.

      2. Uniting the North to fight Walkers
      This is complicated by the presence of the Free Folk. There’s no guarantee that eliminating Ramsay will unite the north. Furthermore, they have no real means of fighting the Walkers, currently, even if the north is united.

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    98. Somebody just pointed out to me something I hadn’t noticed before, and I don’t think I’ve seen it mentioned here in the posts.

      When Arya tossed the bag of coins at the sailor (then grabbed it back), she used her right hand to do so.

      Arya is left-handed.

      Hint / Clue that the “Arya” we saw in “Broken Man” is really somebody else? Like many has pointed out, her actions doesn’t make any sense at all if she was trying to hide from the FM. Maybe it was Jaqen in disguise trying to test the Waif? The command to “not let her suffer” has to mean something, after all.

      I normally don’t subscribe to outlandish conspiracy theories like this, but this has me going “hmmm?”

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    99. I saw a theory on Reddit that I like . . . Sansa is writing directly to Sweetrobin, Lord of the Vale, and not to LF. The theory makes sense because Lyanna Mormant was standing by the ravens when the idea of the letter came to Sansa. If Sweetrobin commits the Vale’s army, Sansa bypasses LF and owes him nothing.

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    100. Josh L,

      Again, overthinking.

      Arya is wounded. She will get better. The fun will be in figuring out how.

      My theory is that Jaqen will fix her. There have to be healing potions somewhere in that place.

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    101. Anon,

      And then she shit-talked Davos with “He got 62 soldiers from a 10-year-old.”

      If Sansa had kept talking, Jon would have been hung as a deserter and Sansa would have been shipped back to Ramsay so the Mormonts could earn favor with the Boltons.

      Unfortunately, Sansa’s best value to Jon and Davos is really what her best value was to Roose and Ramsay — A symbol. It sucks for her, for women in Westeros and for Sophie Turner and women in general. But that’s the case.

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    102. worfwworfington:
      iridium,

      Littlefinger got to her with the “half-brother” nonsense. Because she should have told Jon and Davos so they could plan for more men AND make sure it was clear that Littlefinger is not in charge when he arrives.

      People will die because of Sansa. Typical fooking Stark.

      Wrong! People will live because of Sansa.
      I’ll make sure to remember your name so I can rub it in when the time comes

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    103. worfwworfington: Can we marvel at the show for spending so much time on Hound when there are basically 16 hours left? That tells me he’s got a major role.

      Yup. Astute observation.

      Same thing with Sam last week. Though we at least have a better idea of what role Sam might play in the climax.

        Quote  Reply

    104. King Podrick,

      Hey, that wasn’t me! I pointed out that it’s a risky move, but we don’t know how it will play out and that it’s possible the Vale coming will be complication free. I’d love to see Royce leading the charge from the West – I bet that guy is a badass.

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    105. Anon,

      What if… The Umbers sent the pink letter to castle black. Little John never kneeled to Ramsay nor pledged to him. Instead, he is trying to get Ramsay to leave Winterfell to fight wildlings, which makes him most vulnerable. So they also send a letter to Castle Black to get them to get their sh*t together and prepare to fight Ramsay. The Umbers being so loyal to the Starks, switch sides at the last minute, and while Ramsay & Co are out of Winterfell, they save Rickon. Osha failed at the assassination attempt, so they had to go to plan b, which is lure Ramsay out and crush him.

      Just a thought.

        Quote  Reply

    106. bastardchild,

      I thought the same… plus they have a military commander already too – they don’t need LF to help the cause. Go right around LF.

      I hope this is right, or the letter went to someone else.

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    107. Connor:
      The Manderly’s have been mentioned like 3 times this season, no doubt they are going to unexpectedly come into the battle to help fight against the Boltons.

      It is known. Hopefully we get that Manderly speech before they storm in!!

      Or attack the Bolton army from within or the rear as part of that army.

      Something similar is likely to happen in TWOW with respect to the Frey forces.

        Quote  Reply

    108. Nadia,

      They clearly love each other, but they don’t actually KNOW each other. Or, they didn’t like things about each other that are coming out:

      I agree that the things they don’t like about each other are coming out:
      Jon doesn’t like that Sansa scorns him for being a bastard; and Sansa doesn’t like Jon for being a bastard.

      You can already see in this episode, he’s peeved with her. He cringes when she starts talking to Lord Glover, but most critically he’s irritated when she’s talking about Davos.

      I think, Nadia, that Jon isn’t cringing because she’s talking about Davos, it’s the way she talks about Davos that sounds like a high-pitched shriek, causing Jon to cringe. She mocks Davos’ knowledge and belittles him.

      And the worst part of all this is that she’s gone crawling back to LF.

      It’s kinda like Cat and Robb. Except the one crawling back because she doesn’t “have enough men”, is Sansa, not Robb. It’s interesting to me that the Cat/Robb fiasco began when Littlefinger planted Tyrion’s seed within Cat’s fertile mind: to exchange Jaime for Sansa(and Arya). And, it was Brienne who executed Cat’s failed mission.

      But to have refused him and now gone back and begged him puts her in a position of weakness AGAIN.

      She was weak when she walked into that Moles Town shack. She told the enemy that she was mortally wounded. And, she gave the enemy information that “My brother and I” will take back Winterfell. That brother who is Lord Commander, marching on Winterfell with an army…told to Littlefinger, the enemy. And everybody knows what happens when you pour out your pain to a psychopath.

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    109. LatrineDiggerBrian:
      Does anyone know why they used Disney World as the exterior for Riverrun? I half expected a smiling, waving Mickey to pop up behind the Black Fish.

      In re-watching the episode, the Jon, Davos, Sansa visiting the Wildling camp scene could not have been more pointless. We already knew Tormund is on board with Jon and being that he’s their leader, it really served no purpose. It was cheesy too with Wun Wun saying “Snow”.The time could’ve been better spent showing Euron doing some crazy stuff on the Iron Islands.

      How about NO!
      Nobody wants to see Euron do crazy shit, we already know he’s crazy. See how that works?

        Quote  Reply

    110. Flayed Potatoes: To be fair, he was raised as a bastard and knew he wasn’t entitled to anything due to Cat. Even this season he was unsure about going into battle because he didn’t think any of the Northerners would fight for him. He hasn’t interacted with that many Northern lords either.

      Actually, in the book, he does a fair amount of such interaction as Lord Commander; but the show has chosen not show much of that, likely because of time, and because it would complicate his narrative.

      But as presented in the show, his uncertainty makes sense. He’s clearly much more confident and passionate in dealing with the KW and the Wildlings, groups he is much more used to interacting with, and who know him well.

      Otherwise, good points.

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    111. WorfWWorfington: And that’s only going to get worse when she witnesses Davos completely lose his shit when he figures out what happened to Shireen.

      BUT… and this just occurred to me, what is the worst that will happen? Is she really stupid enough to promise Littlefinger anything but “OK, I forgive you” in return for the army? She’s not going to make him Hand of the Queen of the North, is she? She’s not going to marry him? Or marry Robyn, right?

      Please tell me she’s not that dumb

      1. I don’t know if Sansa will be brought in as a witness to Davos’s showdown with Mellisandre. Interesting question. Heck, if Davos killed her over this, it might actually increase her respect for him. (It certainly would Brienne’s!)

      2. Hard to say what Sansa’s pitch was. My tentative guess is that it was something like, “If you really want to make right what harm you did me by arranging marriage to Ramsay, you could start by aiding us in destroying this monster.” I think it’s in Littlefinger’s interest to help the Starks, if only because they’re more likely to be useful to him than Ramsay (an unpredictable and uncontrollable force) would be – even after all that has happened to Sansa.

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    112. Anon,

      I never said she did a good job. Just that Jon is not excluding her.

      Athelstane,

      Yeah I wish we had seen some Northern lords visiting the Wall last season. Even to bring some supplies lol. Seeing Jon interact with people outside the Wall was great in the books (for me at least).

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    113. Boston Snow,

      ..Could be. But I’m not a big fan of super complex plots. That would be an amazing degree of complexity there. Substituting a direwolf head, jeopardizing Osha and Rickon’s life. I mean, Ramsey is not a predictable fellow, after all.

      It may be that the Umbers really do hate Wildlings, and they are the ones who sent the letter to spark a confrontation with Ramsey, which would wipe them out. If the battle isn’t going their way, the Umbers may change their tactics to survive..

      Then, the letter may have been sent by Littlefinger himself, or through his influence.

        Quote  Reply

    114. worfwworfington:
      jpwf,

      Fact is, the North would be better off if some other House rose up.

      But Jon is the only one to appreciate properly the impending White Walker invasion that’s about to happen. Any other house, Bolton included, will not until it’s much too late.

      Otherwise – yes, one can understand the position of many of these nobles. Jon&Sansa does not look like a winning bet. As it is, the handful of houses they have managed to line up is a real testament to just how massive a reservoir of respect that the Starks had built up over the past few centuries. Because otherwise, they’d have gotten laughed out of every one of those castles, if not taken into custody and sent to Ramsay.

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    115. I feel like the rabid Sansa defenders and Sansa haters are just two sides of the same coin.

      Here’s the bottom line – you can like a character, understand their motives for doing something, and still think they are DEAD WRONG.

      That is what is happening with Sansa. You can argue for why she turned down LF and lied to Jon. You can even argue now why she’s not telling him. It can make sense, but it doesn’t mean it’s the right course of action. And in the end, considering she has to go back to him, she clearly made the wrong decision.

      I like Sansa plenty. I would love her and Jon as equal partners, because they are different enough to complement each other. But she’s wrong to lie to him and it does nothing really for her character – that’s the rub. What has it done for Sansa to refuse LF, lie to Jon, then go back to LF, except make her seem devious and also NOT SMART.

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    116. Okay, first off – the Hound. I am envisaging that we have begun the build up to the war against the white walkers and that for this to happen we might get a GREATEST WARRIOR + VALYRIAN SWORD match-up process. A newly responsible Hound is certainly high on my list to be one of these heroes. Unless Sam is going to study valyrian steel making then he has one sword that needs to go to a hero.

      PLOT POINT 1: Im a little confused and need to rewatch season 5 but – who does know that Sansa was married to Ramsay? Did the Bolton’s annoounce it to the North or did it stay under the radar? Cersei doesnt know she is in the north? Why not? Jaime doesnt we can see. If Brienne and Jaime get to meet is Jaime GOING ROGUE with the Lannister army? Im envisaging things going badly with Jon’s army (LIttlefinger turns up but fights with Ramsay?) and all looks lost until Jaime + Brienne + Blackfish march up by surprise

      The Blackfish does not know Sansa is in the north? I have the feeling the whole point of the parlay was we get to hear Blackfish reminding Jaime of his oath….

      BUT… PLOT POINT 2: I’m also unsure how the Blackfish knows of Jaime’s oath. Was this some generally widely known and discussed thing?

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    117. Josh L,

      Last scene ended when she fell asleep, no? What if she simply had a dream to warn her to be careful because anyone could be the Waif? The stab wound seemed very deep and I don’t see how she could survive this and jump immediately afterwards through Braavos like in the trailer, unless Ray or Melisandre is around… I think in the next episode she’ll simply wake up. Wouldn’t they use the theater troupe as a cover up for her to reach Westeros instead of her booking passage on another ship? Lady Crane owns her a debt, so perhaps she’ll join them.

        Quote  Reply

    118. Anon:
      Danny,

      Winterfell is a fortress; I can’t imagine how they’ll liberate Rickon from inside it’s walls before someone cuts his throat.There are secret passagways, and no one knows that more than Rickon who used to prowl the crypts. However, Ramsay has hounds.

      Rickon is a lost cause and I think Jon knows this.He didn’t even want to go to war to save Rickon, initially, because he knows Winterfell. So he can strike that reason off his list. What’s left:

      1. Saving the Free folk… ultimately
      That letter, presumably from Ramsay, is a trap. The Free Folk may not be in any immediate danger and they are already a devastated people, having lost 90% of thier population.

      2. Uniting the North to fight Walkers
      This is complicated by the presence of the Free Folk.There’s no guarantee that eliminating Ramsay will unite the north.Furthermore, they have no real means of fighting the Walkers, currently, even if the north is united.

      Agreed with all of this.

      Not that Jon doesn’t love Rickon or wish to save him. But that’s not gonna sell anyone on joining his army.

      Anyway, he has to know that the Free Folk *are* probably doomed if he doesn’t act. Ramsay can’t trust or even bought off by handing him back Sansa.

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    119. worfwworfington,

      And then she shit-talked Davos with “He got 62 soldiers from a 10-year-old.”

      Yeah! It was absolutely inexplicable! All I keep going back to is that Sansa is simply not a nice person – period. She’s nasty to villains, and she’s nasty to people who care about her. Now she’s with the nicest guy of all, Jon, it’s not going to make her look good.

      If Sansa had kept talking, Jon would have been hung as a deserter and Sansa would have been shipped back to Ramsay so the Mormonts could earn favor with the Boltons.

      Holy smokes, you should frame that! The way Jon went marching up into those castles with that noose of fur around his neck, I forgot for a second that he’s a deserter! Davos told Sansa council that men don’t want their families to be skinned alive for a lost cause. You’re right to say that they could have returned her to Ramsay.

      Unfortunately, Sansa’s best value to Jon and Davos is really what her best value was to Roose and Ramsay — A symbol. It sucks for her, for women in Westeros and for Sophie Turner and women in general. But that’s the case.

      Ten year old firecracker, Lyanna, manages to rise above being a mere symbol…as best she can. Margery managed too…so did working girl, Ros. So there are strong females here…

        Quote  Reply

    120. Interesting stuff

      Not sure i quite buy what Sophie says (lol this is going to make that Feminist argument worse)

      After all this is the man who has seen and fought alongside fighting women like Ygritte and worked and listened to women leaders like show character Karsi…

      Might have something to do with the weather being close to changing like at the start of the convo

      Besides, woman or man Sansa and her mentor LF keep things from ppl, know about the Vale option so their calculus is different and wonder why she is getting into arguments about how to progress

      It doesen’t matter anyway, the whole thing is actually a tad clunky because they r merging two distinct arcs

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    121. I wonder if house Manderly will support the Starks,so far the other two big houses support the Boltons.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Josh L,

      That’s how I took it as well. I think the Arya that got stabbed was Jaqen. The last time we see Arya she’s hunkered down with needle. This time she suddenly has 2 bags of coins and no needle and just strolling around without a care in the world.

      Nick Hartley does not sow!

        Quote  Reply

    123. bastardchild,

      But Sansa knows that boy is a milk sop who would be sucking at his mother’s teat if she wasn’t in the cold ground. Littlefinger controls Robin now, and either way, LF gets what he wants.

        Quote  Reply

    124. Athelstane,

      Not that Jon doesn’t love Rickon or wish to save him. But that’s not gonna sell anyone on joining his army.

      Exactly! Why should all the Free Folk and the northern houses risk everything for a single Stark boy and a family that no longer has power? The thing that sold Lyanna Mormont was talk about The Army of the Dead!

        Quote  Reply

    125. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      What I got out of Jon and Sansa’s trip to the Free Folk camp was the picture painted of squalid living conditions, and a devastated people, contrasted with well fed Jon and Sansa dressed in fine leather and fur.

      Jon looked ashamed. But, he rallied himself and used the words Sansa put into his mouth about the Free Folk being at risk if they didn’t fight.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Rory is such an amazing actor and the audience has such an investment in him. We realized he could anchor his own return storyline.

      Called it! I remember people trying to argue with me that a regular cast member HAD to be the one to meet up with the Hound because he and Ian couldn’t carry a scene by themselves because scenes always have a POV character. BLAHAHALOL!!!

        Quote  Reply

    127. Anon, I feel like you’re just looking for justification to hate Sansa. She didn’t eat it with Glover any more or less than Jon did. Her introduction to Lyanna Mormony went no better or worse than Jon: she led with courtesy (“a lady’s armor”) and Jon led with chivalry and warrior-nobility, and Davos rescued them with straight, common sense.

      She hasn’t been “nasty” to the bad guys or the good guys? She’s the first to forgive Theon, apologized to Jon, and was always courteous to psychopaths Joffrey and Ramsey. Nothing remotely close to what you said.

      And remember she’s throwing shade at Davos because 1. She knows nothing about him (as viewers do) and 2. Brienne counseled her to do so, basically painting Davos as an opportunistic turncoat.

      That you’d place Ros as a strong female lead…. Well. She never was anything but a pawn, despite her best efforts. It’s pretty sad.

        Quote  Reply

    128. Nadia:
      Dee,

      Seriously. I mean I know a few filming spoilers but I don’t think any of them make me appreciate this situation at all.

      If Sansa’s motivation is to get Jon and all these people to listen to her, she’s gone about it ENTIRELY the wrong way. If she said – I can command the Vale forces – you think they wouldn’t have listened??

      Instead, she’s frustrated he’s not listening even though she’s the one lying to him, and she’s the one whose naiveté is being smacked down by the North, and so she just behind his back has to crawl back to LF?

      It makes me so mad, mostly because this all seems like artificial drama, but also because I just do not understand how this makes her empowered at all?? She again needs LF and can’t save herself without him.

      Plus I just think Jon is not going to be thrilled when he finds out. I just wonder what the cost is, because she’s clearly promising him something in that letter.

      Honestly, you’ve gotta get over this. Sophie has now explained about Sansa’s reasons and that both she and Jon have each other’s backs.

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    129. “It’s going to be a big adjustment for him to listen to her and view her as an equal, especially when it comes to war tactics, simply because she’s a woman.”

      What the fuck? How about because she has zero war experience and in that regard is nowhere near an equal? Come on Sophie, nothing to do with gender!!!

        Quote  Reply

    130. Sansa has learned almost everything from Littlefinger. What did he teach her? KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.

      In a world where men rule and where this girl has been used/raped/beaten/cut/sold/framed/blackmailed/imprisoned and hunted for 4 years by MEN, you can bet your bottom dollar she will hold onto the one thing that gives her power in that world.

      Whether it’s right or wrong to us or makes little sense isn’t the point. It’s right for HER character and Sansas overall arc as she will use that power to bring victory to the Starks, and (make no mistake) to bring and end to Littlefinger.

        Quote  Reply

    131. Pigeon,

      Maybe Sophie didn’t articulate it well enough here but there is truth in there, Sansa was the ultimate lady when he last saw her, far removed from wartime politics and strategy. It’s clear this season he’s struggling to reconcile who she was with who she is now.

      Also, most of the debates about Sansa these days stem from the fact that she is a “woman” politicking or trying to at least, in a man’s world. So I see Sophie’s comment as a wider allegorical representation of the show as a whole.

        Quote  Reply

    132. Nadia,

      I’m holding out hope that Sansa didn’t write to Littlefinger, but to Robyn and Lord Royce. She knew Littlefinger had an army when she dismissed him at Moletown. I think after watching Peter operate she also knows he wants Winterfell, and thus inviting him to be an ally in this fight would endanger Jon .Once you invite a 9 Million pound gorilla into the room it’s kind of hard to get him out.

        Quote  Reply

    133. Also have to mention the squabble breaking out between the Wildling and a Northern soldier, Davos’s cursing was hilarious! Good that they’re showing some discord between the camps. Small details like this is what elevates this show.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Josh L,

      It’s not outlandish. Many of us had similar thoughts last night. The brazenness of her being in the open without needle when the last we saw she was in some dark room (maybe even a ships cabin). She wanted to attract attention. She would have been wary of anyone approaching. While she could have
      Stolen the money it certainly was not all from selling clams. The whole walk after coming out of the water was surreal. Like Cerseis walk. Something was up

        Quote  Reply

    135. Shaz:
      Pigeon,

      Maybe Sophie didn’t articulate it well enough here but there is truth in there, Sansa was the ultimate lady when he last saw her, far removed from wartime politics and strategy. It’s clear this season he’s struggling to reconcile who she was with who she is now.

      Also, most of the debates about Sansa these days stem from the fact that she is a “woman” politicking or trying to at least, in a man’s world. So I see Sophie’s comment as a wider allegorical representation of the show as a whole.

      Possibly. But she truly doesn’t have experience or equal footing in battle tactics or negotiating (this is not a ‘fault’, she just hasn’t). Jon has much more, and has still made some pretty good goof-ups. I kind of wish they’d both just take Davos’ words more to heart. If anything, seeing how he showed respect and straight-talked Lyanna Mormont was a good lesson in politics. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    136. Nadia,

      Well said. I was going to suggest a separate thread each week so Sansa lovers and haters could exchange barbs at each other without taking up too much of other threads. I guess she is the Stannis of season 6. Hard to have a rational discussion of Stannis last year. Hard to have one of Sansa this year 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    137. Apollo,

      This is the same as the whole argument about the murder of Doran and co. It is not right and oberyn wouldn’t want that but it was the right move to ELLARIA!

        Quote  Reply

    138. Josh L,

      There is something weird up here. However, it’s all sort of backwards. Arya might have the ability to look like someone else: in theory, she might have nicked another face, or she might be hanging out with the theater troupe. But she does not have the ability to make someone else look like her.

      It is possible that someone with magical abilities could glamour someone to look like Arya. However, that would be completely Deus ex Machina: that sort of glamouring never has been introduced and we’ve never seen Arya interact with anyone who might have that ability. And who was it posing as Arya?

      My thought is that it’s something else that will cause us to smack our foreheads and say “d’oh!” But I’m not sure what it is .

        Quote  Reply

    139. Nadia,

      Eh? Wot? They got McInnerney? How did I miss this? How the f&^% am I going to watch him in GoT without seeing Lord Percy Percy or Captain Darling in his place? Shite.

        Quote  Reply

    140. King Podrick: How about NO!
      Nobody wants to see Euron do crazy shit, we already know he’s crazy. See how that works?

      It’s coming my friend. I hope you have your teddy bear in hand or a phone nearby in case you need to call for help. D & D are dark mother fuckers and have made a habit of making George’s already dark material even darker. Judging by George’s latest chapter he read from WoW, they have their work cut out for them, but I think they will deliver. Don’t say I didn’t warn you!

        Quote  Reply

    141. Dee,

      Oh c’mon it was totally lame and pointless, we already knew Tormund was committed to Jon, that was enough. It was filler. C’mon Dee, criticize the show just once.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Anon,

      Meh I see what you’re saying, but it just felt like going through the motions and a lame yeah team! moment.

        Quote  Reply

    143. Roz’s Ghost: I think after watching Peter operate she also knows he wants Winterfell

      The problem with this notion is that Sansa has not seen half of what we’ve seen. She has no idea that LF has manipulated this from the start to get it so that the Vale armies could take Winterfell with the blessing of the Iron Throne, with the Vale Lords thinking that they were doing it for their own glory, and irrespective of who won between the Boltons and Baratheons.

      What Sansa almost certainly really wants is to do this herself without Baelish’s help. And that is completely understandable: when people get tortured the way that Sansa did, they cast a wide blame-net. Moreover, she wanted allies that were hers. However, she’s learned that she still had romantic notions that needed to be disabused!

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    144. LatrineDiggerBrian: Oh c’mon it was totally lame and pointless, we already knew Tormund was committed to Jon, that was enough.

      No, I think that having the Wildlings actually agree to join Jon’s fight was important. We needed to see Jon “warm up,” so to speak. And we also needed the reminder that Jon was siding with the enemy (insofar as Glover and other northerners are concerned), and that the enemy was not 100% up for siding with him.

      I suspect that the remind that Ramsay is coming after the Wildlings is a useful reminder, too.

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    145. So Olenna is off to Highgarden. Do you think we will finally see The Tyrell home?!

        Quote  Reply

    146. Pigeon,

      Well they’re learning, aren’t they? Davos has been doing this for years. Fast-forward 15 years I’d like to believe they’d be seasoned negotiators as well. Honestly, it’s been fun to see the whole Northern recruitment campaign come as a rude awakening for both of them. For Sansa it must be clear now that Northerners are nothing like the South.

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    147. mother of Danes,

      She doesn’t really have any one skill that enables her to do so. She’s not clever, she’s not a warrior, she’s not a good manipulator. I don’t see her evolving into any of those things either.

        Quote  Reply

    148. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Those things can be learned. Why is it you think she’s incapable of learning these skills in time?

      (By which I mean political astuteness and manipulation – the “warrior” thing, I agree, is not Sansa. She needs to use other methods to get ahead).

        Quote  Reply

    149. iridium:
      LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Those things can be learned. Why is it you think she’s incapable of learning these skills in time?

      (By which I mean political astuteness and manipulation – the “warrior” thing, I agree, is not Sansa. She needs to use other methods to get ahead).

      Sure, we’re all capable of learning things and getting better. She has learned a lot since the beginning of the show, but she will never be great at any of the aforementioned things. It’s not in her DNA. She will continue to do what it takes to survive, but her survival will always depend on who is protecting her.

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    150. This was a great ep, even better on re-watch. I even liked the Yara Theon scene a lot more, didn’t catch initially that they were in Volantis and that the ship captain in Braavos mentioned how the Iron Born fleet was in slaver’s Bay.

      Also didn’t notice the first time how Lady Mormont called Sansa Lady “Sander” haha. That was a great scene.

      The Hound stuff was simply fantastic.

      Did anyone catch what Sansa said when arguing with Jon, she said something like, “I know if we go to Castle Coven we can…” before he cut her off. I might have the name wrong, but what House was she referring to?

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    151. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      She’s not stupid. She’s actually proven (particularly the book!Sansa, but show version too) that she understands diplomacy and has a fairly good eye for reading people if she follows her true instincts. She’s also very politically correct and generally cautious and polite in addressing people, which are all good things in the world of politics. She’s only just entered the playing field after spending the remaining years of her childhood in constant captivity, she’s not exactly going to be an instant master player. It’s important to note that very intelligent men, Tyrion and Littlefinger (different but intelligent players in their own respects) both saw potential in Sansa and commented on her natural ability to thrive (survive) in the court. And she was, and still is almost, a child! (though the show version is aged up quite a bit).
      I would argue that she has the potential to be a great political mind but its a bit much to expect her to show that as soon as they release her from her jailors. There needs to be a grace period and that’s what the showrunners are doing, they know it would seem odd if she suddenly started acting like Margaery or something. The artificial tension between her and Jon is also there just to up the stakes, because things aren’t already tense enough in the North apparently… But seriously we all know the Starks are going to win that battle so I guess they feel the need to build the drama that way. And we also (should) know that one of the most important things for the Starks, Jon, Sansa, Arya and even Bran, is returning to Winterfell and being with their remaining family. Sansa has been longing for her family for ages, she’s not out to create division or turn against Jon or anything else some people have suggested. Actually, I think she wants him to be the head of house Stark eventually… but that’s moving into theory territory.

      Lastly, for those people annoyed by why she’s not so sure about Davos. Do you really think you’d trust him if you were her? Even viewers of the show, who know Davos is a good dude, were wondering why exactly he was suddenly so keen on resurrecting and helping Jon. It was a bit odd to say the least. So why on earth would Sansa, who knows nothing about him other than the fact that he was hand to a failed King Stannis and jumped ship instantly to supposedly help her brother, trust him? From her perspective as a constant captive and bargaining chip for the last few years, it’s definitely suspicious. To me, she seems worried that Jon is so trusting of a man whose motives are unapparent and you can’t really blame her for that.

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    152. ForestLight,

      I never said she’s stupid, I just don’t think she’s going to turn into the leader / awesome player of the game like some of you want her to. It’s not in her DNA as a character. She will show courage given her limitations like she has throughout the series. There has been nothing that’s happened so far this season that has proved she is ready to take it to the next level as a player of the game. In fact it’s just been just the opposite, she has shown distrust in Jon and Davos while simultaneously putting her faith back in Little Finger. She isn’t a very good judge of character.

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    153. Sean C.:
      Nadia,

      Nadia,

      The other issue is that, after she provided the initial impetus to march on the Boltons in 604, the bulk of her advice has been wrong, and seems to exist mainly to make Davos look good.Though she was totally right about meeting with Cerwyn rather than Jon and Davos’ strange desire to march post-haste to certain defeat.

      Considering that the other houses who have sided with the Starks, that is Hornwood, Mazin and Mormont, have provided soldiers in the hundreds, Jon might have felt that wasting time to get another few hundreds of soldiers is not worth it.

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    154. jeez i wish some of you sansa haters would change the fucking record. it gets so old reading the thread when every other post some of you are still bleating on about what sansa did LAST episode. we get it. you have an irrational hate of her.

      superb episode, my favorite of the season i think. seemed to have the oldschool GOT depth and intricacy that is hard to achieve when you are doing the big dramatic stuff that has been happening a lot this season, but i love S6 so far all in all.

      the hound, wow just awesome!

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    155. Nadia,

      Well, to be fair to a couple who were watching that had never seen the show before did get the impression it was lovers reuniting and there was an undercurrent of slight flirtation in their demeanor during the “soup” convo.

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    156. Morrigen,

      I honestly believe so. We only have 13 episodes left, there’s just no time for all these subplots such as Sansa going back to the Vale/RL and/or LF s further plotting to gain the throne (which is of cours likely to happen in the next 3-4 books), as it looks like KL will be a ruin next season and there’ll be no damn throne. Once the wall comes down and the WWs come, they are all gonna shit themselves and nobody is gonna give a shit about all the other stuff. Besides, Sansa and LF are exactly where they need to be for the end of LFs journey (a castle made of snow) and they’re gonna need to cut all the secondary characters they can (as well as some of the main characters). I’m amazed anyone thinks that show LF has anything left to do here..

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    157. WorfWWorfington,

      I believe it will turn out that Lyanna asked Ned to promise her he would put forth Jon as the heir to house Targaryen. Ned of course felt he couldn’t do that for… (we all know the reasons.)

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    158. It’s a TV show. She’s a fictional character. Many people really love the character and that’s fine but every once in awhile I get a little uncomfortable with the tone coming off a little too serious from some here. If other viewers want to talk about the negative aspects they perceive in the character, or their speculation isn’t always sunshine and rainbows about any given character in a show there is absolutely no reason to get upset. It is their perception, their opinion, and they’re entitled to have it. It’s subjective, we aren’t dealing in facts here. Life’s too short and there are enough real life issues to get upset over. If someone else doesn’t love the same made up people I do that’s not going to ruin my day lol, nor does it alter my opinion. Why are some people like this? I just don’t get it truly. It’s not like posters are talking shit about your mother, sister or wife. Everyone knows who the dany, Sansa, and Jon lovers are. There is no need to come at the ones who don’t love whichever is your favorite and put them down or act like there’s something wrong with them for not having the same feelings you do, and worse claiming they hate women or some shit like that. Do people do it with the intention of conforming others to the way they think and thus controlling what they read on the board? I don’t get it.

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    159. LastKiss,

      “Irrational hate?” Where do you see that? I have not been able to read every single comment but honestly, I don’t see it. Please post some examples off the thread of this so-called irrational hate. We’ll go from there, but something tells me you’ll end up wanting to rename it something a little less inflammatory.

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    160. I’ve never commented here before but I have 2 things to add today.

      Cooper and Darnell!

      I’m really afraid that Arya is actually going to die and her face will be taken by the FM to be used in the wars to come. Why, I have no idea and I hope it isn’t true.

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    161. ygritte,

      im in the UK, so i come to these threads late and have to plough through a lot of posts, and for the last couple of episodes every other posts seems to be from a small group of people that want to say the same thing over and over again about sansa, it gets tiresome to say the least, just the endless repetition of it all.

      i dont watch the show through the prism of my hate/love for certain characters, sure i have my favourites but i love the overall story the most of all, so i dont really enjoy all the embittered fanboy/fangirl stuff. it seems very small-minded to me.

      someone else mentioned there should be a special thread for all the sansa bickering, so its not just me that thinks it is suffocating the wider discussion somewhat.

      and sorry but i stand by the ‘irrational hate’ description.

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    162. Who exactly was Brother Ray? Did he commit any past crimes against the Stark family? Could he have been on Lady Stoneheart hit list? And Clegane.Bowl sounds interesting but a newly zombified super powered Mountain against a limping and not fully recovered from close death Hound doesn’t sound like a fair match

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    163. I strongly agree. She has always seemed to judge character poorly. If she’s smart she’ll use Little Finger then have him killed. She seems to still be under his manipulation. The end of their meeting when he reminded her that Jon was her half brother did a number on her and caused some tension there. LF needs to be put down before he does some serious damage. Nobody better ever hurt my Snow again. Oh and i also fancy Ramsey being ripped apart by Ghost its only poetic justice for him being so keen on feeding others to his hell hounds

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    164. I’ve watched the episode several times now, and have changed my mind about Olenna’s fate. I was getting perturbed with her baiting Cersei so strongly, even though Cersei might deserve it. I used to think Olenna was such a wise old owl, but that she was going to be one of the casualties of this season. I don’t think either thing now.

      Cersei was right about one thing, both their families are fighting a common enemy, and they should stick together in the fight. But Olenna has become just as obstinate and over-proud as Cersei ever was, and has been useless when she could have been far more effective far faster than she has been. The fact that she can be the source of some scorching burns on Cersei doesn’t make her smart. It makes her, ironically, the same as Cersei: an older woman wildly jealous of a younger, more beautiful one. Where Cersei made some horrid decisions due to her jealousy of Margaery, Olenna has made it an issue to put Cersei down, rather than do something constructive to get Loras and Marge out of there. Horrid decisions all around.

      Now she has laid out for Cersei, in horrid detail, the fruitlessness of Cersei’s plight, just for the pleasure of seeing Cersei brought low, again. Big Deal old woman. What does she think she accomplished with her sharp tougue? Whether or not Cersei deserved it for the look she gave Olenna when Marge and Loras were taken doesn’t matter now. Does she think Cersei is going to suddenly become meek? Does she take Cersei’s at least making an attempt at rationality as weakness? Cersei’s too proud for that, she was raised to be proud, she’s a Lannister ffs.

      Olenna will get out of Dodge in time, but she left Cersei in such a condition that the only thing she can do to get back at Olenna is … what? We all know. Wildfire, burn them all, blah blah. Cersei’s already pretty much decided she’s going to lose Tommen – what better thing to do to get back at the wimpoled old beast than by killing the two things Olenna values the most? I don’t think either Marge or Tommen is going to make it out of this season alive, and it will in large part because Olenna’s sharp tongue was a final indignity that pushed Cersei right over the edge.

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    165. In my comments above, I meant to say Marge and Loras, rather than Marge and Tommen, but really, I doubt any of the three will get out of this season alive.

      But then again, Margaery has shown such cunning and such spirit, that maybe she WILL survive. We already have been shown the idea that hate can help you survive. Maybe the thing that will pull Marge through is the thought of choking the shit out of Cersei, which she will do. I’ve said this before, too, but it tickles me to say “choke the shit out of Cersei.” Indulge me, it’s late.

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    166. Thronetender,

      I agree with most of what you’ve said… Cersei will exact revenge on the QOT big style, probably in the manner you’ve said. But I don’t agree that she’s not tried everything she can to get Marg/Loras out of the slammer (still with their heads). She’s petitioned the HS, marched her men on the Great Sept and has only decided to leave on Margs orders. She was obstinate in her desire to stay and support her grandkids until they were free, that much is obvious. And her anguish is immediately extinguished by one glance from Marg and her passing that note. That’s all it took for her to realise that she is in danger and that Marg has this under control (as much as she can, and in her own way). Olenna has mentored Marg all her life, she knows that if anyone can get outta this, Marg can and when she sees the rose on the parchment, growing strong- gives her added reassurance.

      She told Cersei to get outta town as well, and she has no idea that Cersei will do what she will or about this hidden wildfire (it’s only really the audience remember). Cersei has no strength or support now as she pointed out and whilst that’s a underestimation on the QOTs part, it’s a perfectly logical assumption.

      And who can blame her for handing Cersei her ass? She’s ripped her family apart (as she rightly said).

      We’ve not seen the last of the QOT… The show got her outta there to do something… And she will. Go grandma!

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    167. Also, during this last viewing, I realized that the raven Sansa used was one of the Mormont Maester’s ravens, and that little Lyanna was there among all those men. Oh Seven Gods and whomever else, what’s going to happen to that little girl? Is she going to be another Karsi, someone we fall in love with instantly then have to mourn when she dies horribly? Cripes, this show. They better not let that little girl get hurt, dammit. When the f*** are they gonna start knocking off some Freys? The two at Riverrun would do nicely, but not that little girl.

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    168. Apollo: We’ve not seen the last of the QOT… The show got her outta there to do something… And she will. Go grandma!

      LOL, ok I will cut the old lady a teeny bit more slack, but I stand by my statement that she really is jealous of Cersei, just as Cersei is jealous of Marge. Like I said, I think she survives: tough old biddies like that usually do.

      That rose note Marge slipped Olenna was kind of cool. I remember a scene in an early season when one of the girls in Olenna’s court embroidered a rose, and Olenna made fun of it: roses on the dishes, roses on the towels, or something like that. Yet, this was one rose the old turtle was really happy to see.

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    169. Thronetender,

      It was, I liked the irony of it…but it kinda worries me a little too tbh. I can’t help wondering if the HS will be suspicious of Olennas unexpected departure, and also if he is maybe setting up Marg as a test of her faith. I hope not though.

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    170. Apollo: he is maybe setting up Marg as a test of her faith. I hope not though.

      It could be, never thought of that. Just like we all think Jaqen is testing both the Waif and Arya. (At least I think Jaqen is testing them both.) The HS is showing himself to be more and more devious, isn’t he? Do you like the guy? The character, I mean, not the actor. Pryce is doing a great job in his bare feet and gray sack.

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    171. Thronetender,

      Jonathan Pryce is doing a stellar job! As for the character, I have mixed emotions tbh. He is devious, no doubt about it but he does appear to be genuinely humble and what he says (many times) is essentially true: It’s the poor who suffer at the hands of the highborn and their game of thrones. So I do find it unfair to call him an outright villain (although Unella is a different matter). I wonder if his aim is to truly change the system, or if there’s something else going on and he just simply desires power. That’s what great about this show- we grow to like a guy who f#’ks his sister/breaks his oaths/pushes a kid out the window or to loathe a guy who, to all intents and purposes, is on a mission to help the poor and afflicted.

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    172. Apollo,

      Spot on. Yes why do we instinctively tend to dislike him for giving power back to the poor and taking out the rich, sinful and self serving?

      Probably because he’s on a quest for power and control where the only opinion tolerated is his opinion. And it’s all wrapped up in religious fanaticism.

      I saw his comment to Margeary regarding her grandmother as a threat. “I fear for her safety, body and soul”

      Conform or die is what that means, and Oleana is never going to conform so Margeary cleverly gets her to leave the city.

      I have been wondering who she was writing to when she spoke to Cersei. House Tarly maybe? Dorne? She’s bound to be trying to rally support from those loyal to the Tyrells.

      I don’t get the slaughter of the little community founded by Ray. The BWOB don’t go round murdering unarmed villagers for no reason at all. That isn’t what they’re about, and there’s no purpose to it on the face of it so there’s something we don’t know.

      I’ve read all the discussion about Ayra and again something doesn’t add up. How can she be running around leaping off buildings so soon after receiving serious wounds? Again, there is something we don’t know it seems.

      As far as Cersei goes, she is now boxed into a corner and knowing Cersei will make yet another mistake trying to fight her way out of it. After all, it’s what she does time and again….the wrong thing.

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    173. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Tormund was committed to Jon before Hardhome but he had to talk to the wildlings and convince them.
      I personally am glad we saw Jon talk to the wildlings. The wildlings have never fought for anyone – that was the reason Mance died. Yes Ramsay did threaten their people, but there had to be some convincing involved, and since this is their largest army, I am glad they showed us.

      I do criticize the show sometimes when I feel like it needs it. For example, I am not and will not be happy with a “sibling rivalry” with the Starks…. there is enough drama anyway. (will have to wait till send of season to see how this plays out)

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    174. I can’t believe we still don’t have an official description for episode 8.Shouldn’t that be on some viewer’s giude by now?

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    175. Halfman:
      Apollo,

      I have been wondering who she was writing to when she spoke to Cersei. House Tarly maybe? Dorne? She’s bound to be trying to rally support from those loyal to the Tyrells.

      I don’t get the slaughter of the little community founded by Ray. The BWOB don’t go round murdering unarmed villagers for no reason at all. That isn’t what they’re about, and there’s no purpose to it on the face of it so there’s something we don’t know.

      I had initially thought it was her making preparations to leave the city/ her arrival at Highgarden and a nice contrast to her earlier spats with Cersei and Tywin, where they were holding the quill and were in positions of power.

      But now that you mentioned it, this could well be foreshadowing of something else- perhaps rallying the reach (Tarly) or contacting another southern house (if the rumours/ set reports hold any weight).

      As for TBWOB, I’m truly stumped here. They’ve clearly lost their way but how and why? Beric is clearly gone now, so perhaps they’ve lost their sense of purpose but there has to be more to it than that. Even IF LSH were to surface, I can’t see the showrunners turning ger into an evil character- there’s way too much impact on her being portrayed as pitful and tragic shell, focused on vengeance rather than a killing machine.

      I go back on forth on this LSH thing, and with the indication that Blackfish escapes with Brienne (and TBWOB get an asskicking) in the next episode, I’m not so sure she’s coming now.

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    176. Thronetender:

      But Olenna has become just as obstinate and over-proud as Cersei ever was, and has been useless when she could have been far more effective far faster than she has been.

      Don’t forget short-sighted.

      It’s ironic now about Olenna’s role in killing Joffrey – the one king who would have put the High Sparrow’s head on a spike early on, avoiding the mess the Tyrells are in, in the first place.

      Like Cersei, Olenna has engineered her own House’s downfall, because she thought she was the smartest person in the room. I wouldn’t be surprised if House Tyrell goes extinct the way House Baratheon did last season. (Although I think Olenna will survive for now. Mace, Margaery and Loras are goners.)

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    177. Apollo,

      It just seems to me that there are a fair few powerful players with large forces at their disposal that have stayed out of the game thus far when it comes it. Dorne for one, House Tarly must have significant numbers surely, that was one ENORMOUS pad they had at Horn Hill.
      Much as the Dorne storyline hasn’t been popular, I doubt Elaria and co took over intending to do nothing when their complaint about Doran was that he never retaliated.

      I’m stumped too on the BWOB. The only small detail I noticed was that Ray’s hanging body no longer had his seven pointed star necklace, which suggests it was taken maybe in order to prove to their leader that the job was done. I have no idea why even LSH would want to massacre some villagers whose Septon held that faith. It not exactly anything to do with revenge against the Freys or any of those who wronged the Starks. Very baffling. Hopefully we will find out next episode.

      The other thing which got me thinking was Yara telling Theon they would make a pact with Dany and then go and take back the Iron Islands. I can’t see Dany being interested in helping one lot of Ironborn take the Iron Islands from another lot of Ironborn. She’s not interested in interfamilial disputes. Her focus will be KL….very far from the iron islands.

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    178. Has anyone considered that maybe, in this version of the story, the BwB are working for the BF?

      I just find the timing of the parallel mentions of BF and the BwB (last week by the Freys), and the mention of a castle that’s miraculously well-stocked with provisions, plus the addition of members of a gang who are robbing people for supplies… suspect. Sure, I don’t think BF would actually sanction them murdering innocents specifically, but when last we saw the BwB on the show, they were easy sellouts for gold. So maybe that’s what’s happening here. BF has recruited them with promises of payment (or actual payment), the brotherhood has in turn attracted less than noble fellows who are more than willing to go on a few rampages to get the job done.

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    179. LatrineDiggerBrian:
      Also didn’t notice the first time how Lady Mormont called Sansa Lady “Sander” haha. That was a great scene.

      Did anyone catch what Sansa said when arguing with Jon, she said something like, “I know if we go to Castle Coven we can…” before he cut her off. I might have the name wrong, but what House was she referring to?

      I thought the Sander thing was hilarious too. I couldn’t tell if it was a blooper they left in, or whether it’s because she’s so young she still doesn’t know everybody’s names!

      The house Sansa refers to is Cerwyn, I believe. His family was flayed by Ramsay when she first got to Winterfell for not paying taxes. Sounds like she says “Castle Clover”, but then follows with “I know Lord Cerwyn would..” before being cut off by Jon.

      Maybe she wrote the letter there and not Littlefinger, after all??

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    180. Ginevra,

      I thought he was dead and what a great death scene that was. To bring him back is to undo a great ending, makes no sense. Now any character may come back. Next up, Stannis?
      Plus they spent half of the episode on him, Daenerys got 5 minutes the entire season.

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    181. LastKiss,

      I think it’s the opposite. You’re love for her is irrational. You’re watching the show like you watch a Disney movie, rooting for your hero to win in the end. You might be in for a rude awakening. This ain’t Disney, this is GoT and HBO. This is the big leagues. It’s time to step up your viewing as through the eyes of an actual adult not an emotional child.

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    182. Direwolf Lvr,

      Yeah I really couldn’t tell either if it was written in the script or if the actress just mispronounced the name, but either way it was perfect.

      Thanks. I think that was just a throwaway line then. The letter is definitely to LF in my opinion. I don’t think they’d show a letter to House Cerywn with such dramatic effect.

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    183. Josh L:
      Somebody just pointed out to me something I hadn’t noticed before, and I don’t think I’ve seen it mentioned here in the posts.

      When Arya tossed the bag of coins at the sailor (then grabbed it back), she used her right hand to do so.

      Arya is left-handed.

      Hint / Clue that the “Arya” we saw in “Broken Man” is really somebody else?Like many has pointed out, her actions doesn’t make any sense at all if she was trying to hide from the FM.Maybe it was Jaqen in disguise trying to test the Waif?The command to “not let her suffer” has to mean something, after all.

      I normally don’t subscribe to outlandish conspiracy theories like this, but this has me going “hmmm?”

      I checked back and in the episode where Arya goes blind, actually there are two Aryas, the dead Noone is also wearing Arya’s face. I do not know how that is possible, I have not read the books and don’t know how the Faceless Men actually operate, but it seems that it is possible to wear a living person’s face also. So it may be plausible, that someone else, most likely Jaqen ‘was’ Arya, and testing the Waif. I too, did not expect the real Arya to be soo careless.

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    184. Thronetender:
      I don’t think either Marge or Tommen is going to make it out of this season alive, and it will in large part because Olenna’s sharp tongue was afinal indignity that pushed Cersei right over the edge.

      No way. I’ve no doubt Cersei will have killed a heckload of people by the end of the season – likely most of the Tyrells – but there’s no way it’ll be Olenna’s gibes that drive her to.

      Cersei’s got bigger issues to worry about than a few offensive remarks by an old lady. Assuing she doesn’t yet know about who’s responsible for Joff’s murder, her primary target aren’t even the Tyrells (they’re just collateral); it’s the Faith Militant and HS she’s really after.

      And Olenna was right; what plan could Cersei possibly come up with other than some absolute madness like burning everyone indiscriminately (which is probably what she’ll end up doing anyway)?

      Olenna simply believes in Marge and trusts she’ll find a way. The sad part is, she’s probably right and the girl would have gotten her family out of the mess if it wasn’t for Mad Cers and her eventual wildfire stunt.

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    185. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      who said i loved her? she’s far from my favourite!

      you see what you’re doing? – you cant even imagine that folks can watch the show without being some sad cheerleader for their one favourite character!
      i guess you’re just a fanboy/girl too, but as i said, if you’d taken the trouble to read my post before making your knee-jerk presumptions, i like following the overall story rather than just being sooooo in love with one character and acting like some jealous lover over them.

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    186. SweetTrix,

      I normally don’t subscribe to outlandish conspiracy theories like this, but this has me going “hmmm?”

      I think this show and this site has made us all conspiracy theorists of some sort!

      I have not read the books and don’t know how the Faceless Men actually operate, but it seems that it is possible to wear a living person’s face also

      I have read the books and don’t remember that happening at all. But that doesn’t mean it can’t. I think the answer is in that scene where she goes blind, but I am not finding it just yet.

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    187. My take on the whole BwB thing: Beric,

      who was kind, if still willing to stoop to certain levels for gold, is obviously no longer in the picture (hmm…). Lem Lemoncloak, the guy in the middle of these three riders, has been a member of the BwB since the beginning, and may have recognized The Hound. The Hound, who had a long history of serving Lannisters, and who was with Arya the last time the Brotherhood saw him. If Stoneheart is present (and I think she is), Lem may have recognized The Hound, reported back to Lady Stoneheart, and been ordered to kill them all and bring him back for hanging, or to kill them to draw him out of hiding, so they can learn what happened to Arya.

      I think this season will end on a cliffhanger, that being Brienne’s meeting with, and subsequent hanging by, Lady Stoneheart. Brienne will scream “a word”, cue credits. Hanging is Stoneheart’s MO, and there was clearly a point to Brother Ray being hanged instead of just being cut down like the rest of his peaceful troupe. We also know that the actor that plays Thoros of Myr, another prominent member of the BwB, is back in the fold for this season, and that a scene he was on hand for was a hanging. But he wasn’t present for this one. Hmm.

      We’ve been reminded at least twice over the last few weeks of Catelyn’s death at the hands of the Freys. Like they’re trying to keep it fresh in our minds, or something. Lady Stoneheart is an integral part of Brienne’s story, cutting her entirely wouldn’t make much sense. While it may not have been the right time in past seasons, the action has returned to the Riverlands, and Brienne is headed down there. The pieces are in place, and I think now is the time.

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    188. Thronetender,

      I was surprised to see Lady Mormont there too…surprised and alarmed! She’s one of the bleeding North in that she lost her mother in Robb’s war. What, it can’t be more than two years since Robb died, right? Lyanna’s mother died fighting for Rob, and she doesn’t appear to have a father present either.

      She’s an amazing character and I don’t want to see her get hurt. Although, she might turn out to be an asset to Jon.

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    189. LastKiss,

      What you’re suggesting is ghettoizing commenters based on their transient or persistent, negative opinions of a certain character.

      That’s interesting.

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