Game of Thrones filming leaks confirm Jaime’s season 5 storyline

Jaime

A detailed new report from Los Siete Reinos provides us with the latest info from the set of Game of Thrones, particularly surrounding Jaime Lannister.

This post will be filled with season 5 spoilers, so turn away if you don’t want to know what’s going to happen next season!

There have been rumors for several months now that Jaime’s storyline will diverge significantly from A Song of Ice and Fire for season 5. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Jerome Flynn filmed on Portstewart Strand, Northern Ireland for several days with characters in Dornish clothing, confirming the men would be headed for the southernmost region of Westeros.

More details of a major new scene are emerging now, according to Los Siete Reinos‘s sources in Spain. Los Siete Reinos reports that in this scene Jaime and Bronn arrive in Dorne to find Myrcella and Prince Trystane kissing. Myrcella is surprised to see her “uncle” Jaime, and Trystane offers his hand in greeting to Jaime, who offers him his left hand instead.

Heated words are then exchanged between Jaime and Trystane, and the younger man tries to draw his sword. Bronn knocks the prince unconscious. After this, the three Sand Snakes enter. A fight between the group ensues, until Areo Hotah shows up and orders everyone to put their weapons down.

This information is credible since there have been unconfirmed rumors of a Jaime/Snakes skirmish for a while now, and then a few days ago, a video of Nikolaj rehearsing a fight turned up.

Sue the Fury:
What do you think of the changes so far? Keeping Bronn onscreen longer is an irresistible idea, and this story doesn’t necessarily keep Jaime from carrying out his other storyline duties if he’s back in King’s Landing soon enough.

231 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. I’m almost sure the siege is gone. So, at least give Jaime something to do as long as he’s not in King’s Landing. Doesn’t mean I’m looking forward to this storyline though.

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    2. My Father, the Kingslayer: every teenage girl’s nightmare.

      “But Daaaaaad! You slept with your sisteeeer! Why can’t I be with Tristyyyyyy? Why? Why? Why?”

      I loved how in the books Jaime started getting protective of his kids when he got back to KL. It’s sweet and character building.

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    3. Ironborn,

      I have the same unsettling feeling. Yet the Blackfish has to show up at some point, no? Unless they are pulling a Gendry on us. But why? I mean wouldn’t they want to clarify who gets the Riverrun? It makes no sense to eliminate that. Riverrun and the Tully’s need some kind of closure. I mean is Edmure supposed to go “poof” and the Freys never to reappear? I get you don’t want the UnCat but somehow you need to tie up loose ends for a good storytelling.

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    4. This news kind of makes me hate Trystane in advance. Jaime’s right hand was cut off by a freaking Northmen. Of course he wouldn’t give you the lifeless lump of metal attached to his right arm to shake, you imbecil!

      After all, you are snogging his daughter/niece, of course he’ll want to feel the firmness of your grip to learn more about your character. Way to make a good impression on the in-laws, Trystane, you stupid wanker.

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    5. Strider:
      Ironborn,

      I have the same unsettling feeling. Yet the Blackfish has to show up at some point, no? Unless they are pulling a Gendry on us. But why? I mean wouldn’t they want to clarify who gets the Riverrun? It makes no sense to eliminate that. Riverrun and the Tully’s need some kind of closure. I mean is Edmure supposed to go “poof” and the Freys never to reappear? I get you don’t want the UnCat but somehow you need to tie up loose ends for a good storytelling.

      I bet they’ll just skip the siege and have the Blackfish show up where his tWoW storyline kicks off (whenever that happens of course, probably season 6). Probably with a raid on a certain castle or a convoy carrying prisoners.

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    6. Veltigar,

      um i’m pretty sure that:
      Trystane offers his hand in greeting to Jaime, who offers him his left hand instead.

      Jaime offering Trystane his left hand= a slap on the face, or Jaime threatening to pull his sword out on Trystane. not literally that Jaime is giving him his left hand to shake.

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    7. aurane waters:
      Veltigar,

      um i’m pretty sure that:
      Trystane offers his hand in greeting to Jaime, who offers him his left hand instead.

      Jaime offering Trystane his left hand= a slap on the face, or Jaime threatening to pull his sword out on Trystane. not literally that Jaime is giving him his left hand to shake.

      I kind of prefer my interpretation :p much funnier :p

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    8. Strider,

      They already gave Riverrun a closure. In s4ep7 Brienne tells Pod that they cant go to Riverrun because “Walder Frey rules there”. So Edmure and Blackfish, well…..

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    9. TheMannisthatRides,

      HAHA Shows how much that stuck to people. I was talking with several Unsullied who asked me, a bookreader what about the Tullys and Riverrun? I told them to wait for it. It completely escaped me.

      Thanks, I’ll pass that on!

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    10. Well, that confirms Dorne will be the worst part of season 5. Luckily I gave up on that storyline when Quentyn and Arianne were cut.

      But even then, this is stupier than expected

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    11. This is the dumbest thing I have ever read.

      All signs point to the Dorne storyline being complete fan fiction garbage. What a nightmare.

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    12. Hermann:
      This is the dumbest thing I have ever read.

      All signs point to the Dorne storyline being complete fan fiction garbage. What a nightmare.

      Fortunately, the books are all filled with awesome stuff, such as turtle watching and literal bloody diarrhea. Sorry to hear D&D are ruining your experience with their lame fan fiction. Ever heard of adaptations?

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    13. Veltigar: I bet they’ll just skip the siege and have the Blackfish show up where his tWoW storyline kicks off (whenever that happens of course, probably season 6). Probably with a raid on a certain castle or a convoy carrying prisoners.

      That’s exactly what I’d reply to Strider guy. Also, it’s already stated the Freys rule Riverrun and Blackfish escaped, it wouln’t be hard to skip it.

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    14. Sounds like Jaimie and Bronn in Dorne will be a complete and absolute filler just to find something for all these characters to do while the other plotlines catch up.

      Sad… I was hoping Trystane would also get Quentyn’s role from the books..

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    15. Absolutely no problem with this at all (book reader). I look forward to seeing the result. I expect a lot of negativity here in the comments though, so I’ll try and post tomorrow why I think it is being done, and how it could turn out to be a good idea (don’t want to do it now because I’m on my phone).

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    16. Ironborn:
      At least they’re making Dornish characters as annoying as they’re in the books.

      I lol’d then. There’s a red rag to the pack of bulls if ever I’ve seen one.

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    17. Hermann:
      This is the dumbest thing I have ever read.

      All signs point to the Dorne storyline being complete fan fiction garbage. What a nightmare.

      Because the Dorne storyline in books 4 and 5 were so great, weren’t they?

      While not as bad as Brienne’s storyline, which thankfully has already been vastly improved in the show, the Dorne storyline in the books was completely pointless, and is especially so now that they’ve cut Quentyn from the show. Practically anything they give us on the show is going to be better than what we got in the book.

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    18. A Man Grown,

      Mwahaha Saruman DOES appear at the end of RotK and rules the Shire for a bit after Sauron is defeated. Still a bookreader first 😛

      No doubt you’ll show up with the movie talk and tell me it’s an adaptation. I got the gist of your view though!

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    19. Veltigar,

      Agree. For me, it is simple: more Bronn = good; more Trystane = bad.

      The She Bear,

      I just don’t understand why certain changes are being made. Streamlining is fine. I get changing the emphasis to the Sand Snakes from Arianne even though I don’t like it. Among other things, it indirectly keeps Oberyn’s presence in the story. Many suspected that Quentyn would be cut so not a surprise there. But now we have Trystane – the character without a line of dialogue in the books – drawing a sword on Jaime.

      I liked the Dorne story line in the books so let’s just say that I am not excited about these changes.

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    20. Strider:

      Mwahaha Saruman DOES appear at the end of RotK and rules the Shire for a bit after Sauron is defeated. Still a bookreader first

      You can’t imagine how glad I was to see Jackson cutting the scouring of the Shire. It was anticlimactic as hell.

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    21. I think most people are trippin, D&D arent idiots there working with what they have.its great they addin new material. I think they will adapt both books 4&5 between season 5&6 changing the timelines a little but to work out like s5 focusing on dorne arc /cerseis WOS /jon snow becoming LC/ and ending off with danny flying away on drogon & s6 focused on northern/stannis/bolton arc.. possibly the griffs/ironborn arc jamie/riverlands & i can see trystane martell taking quentin role at end of s5 sent off to bring fire & blood. I can see danny bein absent from half s6 leavin barristan to deal with mereen. With a bunch of fillers along the way i think they will adapt both books accordinly where s07 will be all TWOW arcs…D&D work with GRRM closely and i cant see them spoiling things without TWOW released. I think its safe to say bronn will take Arys role as one of the sand snakes will fill in for arrianes arc. I guess we will really know after s05 finale what s06 will look like but People need to have some confidance in D&D they do a great job working with what they have.

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    22. Abyss:
      franco,
      Nearly every story(line) sounds kinda lame if you only give the outline. Lets wait until we actually see it on screen.

      I read some script outline once after seeing the tv show scene for it. It is very odd and sounds funny with the directions in parentheses, even ridiculous at times, without the set and the actors. Maybe I just don’t have the imagination for it, but I agree with you.

      I’m actually intrigued by the idea of Jaime and Bronn in Dorne. We’ll see how it plays out on screen. And how this trip vs the Balon Swann one in Dorne will affect the plot going into S6 or WoW whatever comes first.

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    23. Have we just completely given up on spoiler tags? Just asking

      And I am a weird person that actually enjoyed the siege of Riverrun. So – le sigh

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    24. am I the only one who thinks this sounds like a cool scene? my only problem is that aimee Richardson is gone :(. seriously, was she really that bad of an actress that they had to get rid of her?

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    25. Season 5 is beginning to take shape. List of confirmed scenes per episode so far:

      Episodes 1-2

      Tywin’s funeral (Ep.1).
      Tyrion and Varys have a chat in Illyrio’s manse in Pentos.
      Arya and captain reach Braavos.
      Arya faces a couple of street thugs. A mysterious figure frightens them off.

      Episode 3

      Tyrion and Varys visit a brothel. Tyrion captured by Jorah?
      The Faith Militant sacks taverns and assorted “places of sin” (3 or 4?)
      Tommen is denied access to the Sept of Baelor (3 or 4?)
      Loras arrested by the Faith Militant (3 or 4?)

      Episode 4

      Jaime and Bronn land in Dorne.
      Ellaria finds out about Jaime’s arrival.
      Jaime and Bronn face a Dornish patrol. A skirmish ensues.
      Lancel confronts Littlefinger.
      Daenerys sentences a slave to death. Chaos erupts.

      Episodes 5-6

      Jaime confronts Trystane Martell. Jaime and Bronn fight the Sand Snakes.
      Tyrion and Jorah sail down the Rhoyne and come upon the Sorrows.
      Master Eaton introduction.

      Episodes 7-8

      Olenna receives a scroll at the Sept of Baelor (Ep.7).

      Episodes 9-10

      Arya comes across Meryn Trant in Braavos.
      Cersei performs The Walk.

      Unknown Placement

      Daenerys pays a troubling visit to her dragons.
      Dragons devour a master and harm another.
      Thugs attack a Meereneese couple.
      Master Luther decides Tyrion and Jorah’s fate.
      Wildling leaders hold war council.

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    26. NOONE UNDERSTANDS!!!

      So, glad I was the first person to think of posting that.

      My theory (been thinking about submitting this on Fury’s Tumblr) is that the cause of the changes in the show has to do with the problem with incorporating Ser Arys. He’s a character that has nil importance until the book 5 plotline, and I can’t really think of a good way to cast him earlier that would justify his presence/justify hiring an actor that would be retained for so many seasons.

      As much as Ser Arys is a terrible character, losing him to some degree also necessitates losing Arrianne. I mean I think you could have her plotline and get rid of the romantic element (D&D are probably going to do something similar with one of the Sand Snakes), but it messes with her plotline. I’m not sure what D&D have chosen to do is a better choice.

      Now one other thing, related to the above, is that if you don’t have Arys, you are probably going to have Jaime or Loras substituting for him, and neither of them would be in a romantic relationship with Arrianne.

      So, tl; dr, losing Arys pretty much means that you are going to have the Queenmaker plot absent an Arianne/Kingsguard romance- which is basically what we are getting.

      Edit- Young Griff also obviously plays a role given his likely plotline, but not knowing whether or not he’ll show up in some form, it’s harder for me to make a call on the impact of his presence on Arianne’s absence.

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    27. Morgoth: You can’t imagine how glad I was to see Jackson cutting the scouring of the Shire. It was anticlimactic as hell.

      That’s what made Tolkien’s LotR brilliant. I didn’t simply end by Frodo and others sailing off into the sunset after the Sauron’s defeat. By including the scouring of the Shire, Tolkien gave the reader a vivid, hard-hitting glance of the ramifications of war. GRRM takes that aspect of LotR and runs with it in ASoI&F.

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    28. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I get that, but it wouldn’t have worked in a movie.
      Even without the scouring, I wouldn’t say LOTR ended with a happy note. Frodo is sort of an alegory of the wounded soldier who doesn’t get to enjoy peace after a long war, he saved the Shire but his afflictions force him to leave. The elves depart, Gandalf too, and the love story between Aragorn and Arwen didn’t end with rainbows either, but with death, as Elrond foresaw. The Ents likely went extinct and all magic vanished from Middle Earth as the age of men began. Yay?

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    29. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I’d give you a like if it were possible, HB. It’s the reason why I’d want the siege of Riverrun shown!

      Sometimes though a simple line that states that Walder Frey rules it is enough apparently. I missed it and posters here were kind enough to point it out.

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    30. This honestly sounds fine to me. It seems to fit with the characters’ personalities from the books (except Trystane obviously, but that’s ’cause he doesn’t really HAVE a personality in the books yet).
      Of course, without knowing the actual dialogue (like what exactly pissed Trystane off for example), I can’t be sure how good this will be.

      As for Jaime and Bronn being in Dorne… They need to cut things for the purposes of adaptation, and I honestly never cared much for the whole Riverrun Siege plotline. And let’s face it, after that’s over, we are pretty much in the same place the show is now, anyway.
      By merging Jaime with the Dorne storyline, that gives them one less storyline to focus on, while still allowing for the advancement of Jaime’s character.
      And with Bronn there with him, he can still do his sword training, as he did with Ilyn Payne in book 4.

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    31. Morgoth: ….Frodo is sort of an allegory of the wounded soldier who doesn’t get to enjoy peace after a long war…,

      Oh, I do love how you put that. Well said, ser…Frodo did have PTSD, definitely.

      Strider,
      …dreams of Riverrun…. 🙂

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    32. Veltigar,

      I interpreted te hand shake the other way around and I think the source just got the hands mixed up.

      Trystane offers his hand to Jaime’s real hand but Jaime uses his metal hand instead for the shake. It is both insulting and hilarious when you look at it this way. Then paired up with Bronn knocking out Trystane lol. I think they are going with comedy for this sequence

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    33. Fire & Blood,

      There is absolutely no chance of this happening. By the end of Season 5 we will have got to tend of book 5 (maybe with a few tiny bits left). Season 56 will he Two, and (an extended (hopefully)) Season 7 will be Dream. Anything else is merely a dream now.

      Northern filming hasn’t really begun yet, hence the lack of information/casting for that region.

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    34. Strider,

      Well Walder Frey did say in the season 3 finale that he was lord of Riverbank, so I guess the seeds were sown then.

      Besides

      David Bradley has said that Walder will be back at some point after season 5

      , so I think there is a chance that we will see Edmure again.

      The Blackish will be an easy one to put back in (assuming they want him as he can fit into just about any storyline.

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    35. I’m not a fan of D&D, they have made a lot of mistakes but these poor guys are receiving WAY TOO MUCH hate lmao……
      Even if they never read all the negative comments (westeros.org, IMDb, youtube, the original WiC and others forum) I pity them, they are working hard on GoT every single day since 2009 let’s not forget that.

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    36. My thoughts on the changes:

      First, I did not hate the Dorne storyline. The only story lines I really disliked were Brienne’s running in circles and Mereen. Even Brienne had her moments(her talk with Randyl Tarly for example and her battle with the Bloody Mummers and meeting LS). The hard to pronounce names and the frustration of Dany being bog-downed by Mereen was not fun. Thank God for Ser Barristan’s POV to make up for it.

      Moving on, I can see why they cut Quentyn, his journey is not all that tantalizing and they have only 3 more seasons to wrap this series up. That being said I will miss his failed dragon nabbing attempt and im worried about the implications that will have for Dorne in future books. The show has taken a different path now so that can’t be helped.

      Now what I’m really worried about is that the added scenes to Dorne are a lesser quality than their book counterpart. I worry that the Sand Snakes will not have much depth to them and that their characters will seem uninspired. Make what you will of Dorne but I believe the Queenmaker plot could have made for exciting tv. Arianne running off with the princess with the clock ticking, against her fathers wishes would have worked imo.

      As much as I like Jaime and Bronn I am fearful that the Trystane/Myrcella romance will seem like The awful Brody’s daughter boyfriend drama in Homeland. I am fearful that The Sand Snakes in Dorne will seem as time wasters.

      My hope is that the Dorne arc is wrapped up as quickly as possible and that we see the Sand Snakes in Kingslanding sooner rather than later.

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    37. “I am fearful that the Trystane/Myrcella romance will seem like The awful Brody’s daughter boyfriend drama in Homeland.”

      It’s exactly the “jump the shark” moment that can destroy the reputation of Game of Thrones.
      But let’s not jump to conclusions we haven’t seen anything.

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    38. The Hound,

      I know a lot of people will adamantly only praise GRRM, but D&D deserve a helluva lot of credit. They have created the biggest HBO show ever; a show that has had critical acclaim by both book and non-book fans.

      Have they made mistakes? Absolutely, no question. But for them to get so much criticism from the westeros.org crowd (generalisation) is ludicrous. GoT is incredibly faithful to the books, if you compare it to anything ever adapted. Yes, some of the new scenes aren’t that good, but some are, and even George had sone rubbish. Even if they cock up the rest if the story, they have given us four fantastic seasons. Part of the reason they are changing it to so much in the next season is that they are trying to streamline some of the mess which George created. If he had written one solid book instead of two plodding ones, who knows, it may have been more faithful.

      By bringing Jaime to Dorne we have a familiar face amongst the newbies (even Myrcella). Yes Ellaria will be there too, but I think it will help the viewers (especially show-only) to get into the storyline to have two big players there. I’m actually quite optimistic for Dorne, and like all the castings, except Trystane. Not sure what it is, but I just don’t like the actor.

      One thing that will amuse me is Linda’s reaction to it all. I always take great pleasure in her ridiculous criticisms of the show, when she can’t even be asked to read a lot of the stuff in the books. I seem to remember her saying that she would stop watching if it diverged too much, but I bet she won’t stop whilst she is profiteering from the show, the complete hypocrite she is.

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    39. Is this why they cut Arianne? So they could do some cheesy insta-love story? You’d think they would have learned from the Robb/Talisa debacle.

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    40. Jeb:
      The Hound,

      I know a lot of people will adamantly only praise GRRM,but D&D deserve a helluva lot of credit. They have created the biggest HBO show ever; a show that has had critical acclaim by both book and non-book fans.

      Have they made mistakes? Absolutely, no questions. But for them to get so much criticism from the westeros.org crowd (generalisation) is ludicrous. Got is incredibly faithful to the books, if you compare it to anything ever adapted. Yes, some of the new scenes aren’t that good, but some are, and even George had sone rubbish. Even if they cock up the rest if the story, they gave given us four fantastic seasons. Part of the reason they are changing it to so much in the next season is that they are trying to streamline some of the mess which George created. If he had written one solid book, which knows, it may have been more faithful.

      By bringing Jaime to Direct we have a familiar face amongst the newbies (even Myrcella). Yes Ellaria will be there too, but I think it will help the viewers (especially show-only) to get into the storyline. I’m actually quite optimistic for Dinner, and luke all the castings, except Trustable. Not sure what it is, but I just don’t like the actor.

      One thing that will amuse me is Libda’s reaction to it all. I always take great pleasure in her ridiculous criticisms of the show, when she can’t even be asked to read a lot of the stuff in the books. I seem to remember her saying that she would stop watching if it diverged too much, but I bet she won’t stop whilst she is profiteering from the show, the complete hypocrite she is.

      Jeb,

      Please kill your autocorrect. It’s actually making your posts difficult for me to follow.

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    41. Hermann:
      This is the dumbest thing I have ever read.

      All signs point to the Dorne storyline being complete fan fiction garbage. What a nightmare.

      Yeah that pretty much sums it up. No Gryffs, no Greyjoys, no Riverlands plot, but hey, after all that’s ok ! We’ll get plenty of Dorne fanfic, Missandei/Grey Worm romance filler, and probably some not-so-subtle book spoilers instead. Hurray for season 5 ! Can’t wait.
      I mean, I’m not asking for Penny or Belwas here… Ofc they can’t put everything in. But why in the world would you give the priority to invented stuff that probably isn’t going to be very good, and cut the good stuff from the books is beyond me.

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    42. Hey, sounds fun so long as there are no long-lasting changes. So long as Jaime and Bronn return to King’s Landing alive, I don’t mind.

      …I don’t see this as a case of characters “teleporting” either. Travel across the Riverlands takes weeks because its filled with outlaws and broken men at this point and travel is unsafe. In contrast, even Oberyn managed to travel to King’s Landing from Dorne by land in a few weeks – and a ship would probably just take a week or two. The Lannisters do command the ocean on the eastern side of Westeros at this point.

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    43. the other guy,

      I didn’t see Missandei/Grey Worm as filler. People were actually complaining that “People of Color” characters aren’t used prominently enough on the series, and that Daenerys has that whole “White Messiah” thing going and her side characters aren’t as well developed. Surprisingly, and I have confirmation on this, Benioff and Weiss themselves were the ones that came up with the Missandei/Grey Worm interaction stuff….presumably, because it rounds out Daenerys’s side characters more, and rather than inventing new POC characters, simply uses the pre-existing ones more prominently (Missandei is specifically “from” their analogue of Africa, actually born there). And it was acted pretty well. I really like that 1997 movie “Soldier” – yeah I know it wasn’t a mega-hit. But the whole thing with Grey Worm that he’s been trained from birth to be nothing but a killing machine, a disposable one at that, and he’s slowly regaining a sense of humanity and personhood.

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    44. Jamie’s Riverlands plot would have been great for viewers to see the left over remnants of the war and how the conflict has affected everyone. Too bad we get fanfic filler instead :/

      and did the show drop any hints as to where show-edmure is? I imagine Tobias Menzies is not going to appear anytime soon due to outlander.

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    45. ctid,

      Sorry, that’s predictive text for you. I did edit it straight away, but I just knew someone would see it first. I’ll try to check before I post next/this time.

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    46. the other guy:
      I mean, I’m not asking for Penny or Belwas here…

      Oh you had to mention Penny, didn’t you? Penny! Where oh where are you? Now I need another beer. All of us have a little bit of Penny inside us.

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    47. Jaime catches Myrcella making out with Trystanne? Then.. Trystanne “offers his hand” .. and draws a sword? Then all the Sandsnakes are magically there to start a pointless fight, too?
      Are they getting their script from Fanfic.net?

      I just hope Bronn takes the place of Arys Oakheart and ends up just like him. It’s a small, petty victory in this field of disappointment.

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    48. dayvJones:
      Jamie’s Riverlands plot would have been great for viewers to see the left over remnants of the war and how the conflict has affected everyone. Too bad we get fanfic filler instead :/

      and did the show drop any hints as to where show-edmure is? I imagine Tobias Menzies is not going to appear anytime soon due to outlander.

      Frey said Edmure was locked away in the S3 finale, I believe.

      I think Arya’s material, especially this last season, pretty much showed the after effects of the war pretty well, or at least as well as Jaime’s AFfC material did. Plus, if they want to show more, Brienne is near that area.

      Introducing the Dornish characters through Jaime is what GRRM should have done, and oddly is kind of what he’s done with pretty much all of his POV characters pre-FeastDance. Brienne, Sam and Theon didn’t just show up without warning with sudden importance, we were introduced to them through significant characters so that their importance kind of snuck up on us. The Dornish characters felt abrupt in a way that the Brotherhood didn’t for book readers, so maybe by treating them as new characters that more established characters meet will ease them into the story better than how they popped up in the books.

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    49. Jeb,

      I guess no one likes Toby Sebastian here (for no reason whatsoever lol ?) He’s Sophie Turner’s ex boyfriend btw.

      And I agree that bringing Jaime and Bronn to Dorne will help the unsullied to invest in this storyline, Doran is not a big enough character to justify the amount of screentime that Dorne will get. I hope not too much because Stannis The Mannis and Theon need more for christ sake. Alfie Allen is a terrific actor and they should take advantage of it. It’s a shame my friends are not invested in his storyline, they despise Stannis too 🙁

      The only thing that bugs me this year is the absence of the Griffs (Assuming Trystane isn’t taking the place of Young Griff) to be honest I’ve completely lost hope…….the filming in Croatia is now finished. I’m still waiting for the casting of the Manderlys since Theon’s storyline has yet to be filmed. Casting news has been really weak so far compared to previous seasons…….As for the Greyjoys it’s a total mystery I have no idea where they’re going with that.

      And yeah Linda sucks.
      Elio can be annoying but I respect him a lot more, he knows his stuff. He’s still a GRRM fanboy though.

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    50. Jeb,

      part of the reason they are changing it to so much in the next season is that they are trying to streamline some of the mess which George created. If he had written one solid book, which knows, it may have been more faithful.

      Exactly. I was so thrilled to see how they cut the boring parts out of both Arya’s and Dany’s arcs, along with many other descriptions and bits that could have been edited out. I don’t always agree with D&D decisions but for the most part they have done an outstanding job. It helps of course to have an excellent bunch of actors cast as well.

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    51. While I’m somewhat expecting this plotline to struggle a bit, I’m more than willing to wait to see it play out before really judging it.

      There’s a lot of people who are very certain that this plotline will work or not long before they see it play out. D&D have had storylines work and they’ve had storylines stumble a bit — I’m not sure how anyone is so certain which way it will go, good or bad.

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    52. Alan,

      Because teen romance sucks big time (Dana Brody says hi)
      People were complaining about Grey Worm + Missandei, just imagine the already hated Toby Sebastian’s Trystane + Myrcella.

      It has the potential to be even worse than Emilia’s acting during the Qarth scenes.
      But who knows ???? perhaps they will surprise us

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    53. Yeah, I really hope they don’t spend too much time on the teen romance thing.
      Though ultimately, to me it will all depend on how well they establish Trystane and Myrcella’s characters.

      Honestly, was anything that happened in the Dorne storyline in the books (aside from Doran revealing his plan, which can still easily happen in the show) really that great anyway?

      If it does end up sucking, there are still plenty other storylines to enjoy.
      I personally didn’t care for Brienne’s storyline in the book (and it seems lots of others didn’t either), but that didn’t ruin the whole book for me – It just made me groan when I got to her chapters.

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    54. Don’t get the constant moaning about the Dornish. I found the characters, and their story lines to be some of the most enjoyable, and I was really looking forward to seeing them play out on screen.

      This is going to be a travesty. Cutting Arianne is just stunning.

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    55. Not sure about this one, but a theory I’ve been playing with in my head is that

      Trystane is Aegon. It would make sense to omit Arianne then. One of the sandsnakes can become heir to Dorne after Aegon is revealed. It explains why there is no casting announcement and it saves time because we know that Dorne is trying to get in touch with Aegon at the beginning of TWOW. Sadly, it would mean that JonCon is cut. Although it would make for a pretty badass reveal when Doran shows his cards to the sandsnakes.

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    56. The Jamie-Blackfish confrontation/Riverrun siege is one of my favorite part of the books and now is gone. I can’t understand why the show put so much attention on Dorne, I would have skipped it all, I’d rather have the Greyjoys. Unless what’s happening with them has a big impact later.

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    57. I’m a book reader who is looking forward to all of this. Bronn + Jaime = fun. I don’t need a literal adaptation. Honestly, let it go and you will enjoy the show more. There has been no indication on the show that Riverrun is even under siege. Other than the great scene between Jaime and the Blackfish, none of that is necessary. I think D&D are doing a great job with their adaptation.

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    58. Just throwing this out there, but we only know that Trystane is about to kiss Myrcella in this scene, but we don’t know any of the context. I think it is very likely that he’s playing a part to charm and seduce a potentially powerful spouse, just olaying the game. Almost all of the “romantic” scenes in this show were not what they seemed with the exception of Grey Worm and Missandei. So let’s wait before we throw accusations of D&D turning something into a fanfic romance.

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    59. This all just makes me wonder how me wonder how much they’re going to change

      Brienne and Pod’s storyline since they seem so tied together with Jaime’s story in the books. I’m pretty curious how they’re going to work it all out.

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    60. StandOzone,

      I liked the Robb/Talisa romance as well. It was one of the few genuinely loving relationships in the show, and both actors really made me believe they were in love. It made me feel warm and happy when they were onscreen together (I had not yet read the books, so I didn’t know what was going to happen…)

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    61. LJA,

      Of course the Ironborn aren’t colorful! They’re salty and damn proud of it. What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger!

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    62. Daphne,

      Oh love is in the air in Westeros and Essos!
      Trystane & Myrcella
      Jaime & Cersei
      Margaery & Tommen
      Jon & Mel & Stannis & Selyse
      Sam & Gilly
      Dany & Dario & Hizdahr
      Tyrion & Jorah
      Loras & Olyvar & a peach
      Roose & Fat Walda
      Ramsay & Miranda
      Bronn & Lollys
      Mercy & Meryn
      Nymeria & Ser Pounce
      Varys & Illyrio
      Shireen & Chekov’s Ygritte killer
      Sansa & SweetRobin
      Lord Walder & “I’ll find anotha”
      Edmure & Roslin
      High Sparrow & Septa Unella
      ….
      Come to think of it, without Arianne & Arys, Trystane & Myrcella might be the most normal current romance of all!

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    63. All of this sounds like fanfiction bullshit. Yeah, Jaime and Bronn walk in on the Prince of Dorne, without asking permission to see him, catch him kissing Myrcella, and instead of some meaningful conversation they get into an immature argument, which then Tyrstane draws his sword, and Bronn can hit the fucking Prince of Dorne and knock him out without any serious consequences. Then fucking Sand Snakes parachute into the area showing off their unique weapon moves to TMNT theme. That makes so much sense.

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    64. ash,

      Steamlining is one thing though, adding odd and unnecessary subplots is another. All the extra stuff they’re putting in is what is causing problems for me, not the extraneous plot points they’ve been correctly removing from the books. Especially when it makes the characters involved contradictory to their origins.

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    65. mariamb,

      Gotta agree with this. The outline seems not to fulfill the potential Dorne had in the books. The show could have done a lot to improve that storyline, but I guess cutting Arianne was a red flag.

      Even the whole Jaime/Bronn seemed like a good thing at first. Not so much anymore.

      And if I were to continue the topic from the last thread, I can see Myrcella staying in Dorne rather than returning with Jaime if there will be a Queenmaker plot and Myrcella will end up dying there. At the moment it doesn’t look likely, though.

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    66. I feel like people are unfairly judging this before even seeing it. We really don’t have any context here.

      EDIT: Looks like Young Dragon beat me to it. 😛

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    67. Treasonbeard,

      Okay, so Doran has no children? His wife was wearing a pillow when she was “pregnant”? Or are you saying he never had a wife in the first place? No, that theory is weak. It’s also a pretty poor idea because it makes Aegon Doran’s master plan rather than Varys’s master plan.

      Aegon would never have worked in the show. All the Blackfyre stuff would have translated into a confusing, convoluted storyline that takes away from Jon and Dany’s special moments (Jon being revealed as a secret Targaryen, Dany landing in Westeros and taking the Throbe etc). I consider the whole Aegon stuff in the books a filler arc, since it just shoves itself into the story near the end and you know it’s bound to fail. The show can do without that, and it looks like it will.

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    68. I’m probably just throwing myself into the ring of fire here… But I like the idea of a Trystane/Myrcella romance!

      A smart way to give some development to a charter we haven’t seen since season 2 and to a completely new one. Portrays Myrcella as a young, naive girl, much like Sansa at the beginning, oblivious to the complete chaos going on around her. A Westerosi princess who has been living a somewhat sheltered life away from KL.

      Hopefully this added romance will allow both book readers and show watchers to have a better connection to the princess, especially when that ‘scarring’ scene eventually takes place. We should be able to identify with both her and Trystane more, both characters who didn’t hold very high regards in the books, due to these added layers.

      ^^Still unsure how that scene will work without Arianne. Excited to see how D&D work with these changes though. Makes for an interesting adaption not knowing what’s coming next!

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    69. Strider: I have the same unsettling feeling. Yet the Blackfish has to show up at some point, no?

      Can’t say this news particularly spoils the story.

      Well… just where is Brynden Tully going with two novels left?
      Or Edmure Tully for that matter?
      Are the last two novels each going to be 10,000 pages long?
      GRRM has to get a grip and stop inventing more characters and arcs are there is going to no way to write a satisfactory ending with only two books left.

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    70. What is wrong with some of you people? You haven’t heard the dialogue or read the script. How do you know what’s happening? Do you WANT to hate this storyline? Because thay’s what it looks like; this constant criticism that the Dornish storyline has turned into a teen love story fan fic… How exactly did you acquire this information? It certainly wasn’t from the description of this scene.

      And anyway, what’d be the problem with the relationship, if done right and if it doesn’t become the focus (which it won’t)? “Oh… No! Kissing! My eyes.” Grow up, people. There’s nothing wrong with a bit of romance. Does all the sexual content in the show have to be a rape, a ruse or sex for the sake of it? What would be the problem with portraying a normal, healthy relationship? Heh, the first time they tried, people just had to assume Talisa was a spy; and the last, some of you could not even stomach five minutes of romance between Grey Worm and Missandei without shouting “Filler!”. God forbid D&D make sure that Daenerys is surrounded by actual characters to interact with, people with their own story and agency, which has been a problem since the start and would only worsen now that Jorah is gone.

      And anyway, I don’t even think this is gonna be an issue here. Yes, Trystane and Myrcella’s role will be larger. GOOD! They are the focus of the Dornish machinations; choosing to turn them into actual characters with agency of their own is a great idea; just as it was to use Gendry for the sacrifice storyline instead of the characterless McGuffin that is Edric Storm.

      Those who fear that the Dornish storyline will focus on a mushy, ridiculous teen romance are out of their minds. Yes, I’m sure they did not cast Alexander Siddig to be the apparently cowardly but actually shrewd Prince of Dorne, a surprising player in the game of thrones… That’be silly! No, of course, they cast such a great actor to be the disapproving dad in a teen romance movie. Sure.

      The nerve with some people. We are so lucky to hear a few details about a scene being filmed and they can only bitch about things that are nothing but a product of their own imagination running wild. We simply do not know the context of the scene. We do NOT know.

      Some of you just want to be angry with the show. That’s the only explanation for the hate the Trystame actor is getting for “looking douchy”, the baseless accusation that the Dornish storyline has for some reason become some teen romance movie, or the insistence on interpreting the out-of-context scene in the most damning light possible; yeah, of course, I’m sure Jaime and Bronn knocked Trystane down just because they had a silly disagreement. Sure. It’s not like they might have some sort of plan, or like there may be some reason for what’s happening, considering we do not know anything about the freaking context of the scene.

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    71. Luka Nieto,

      This. We don’t know the context of the scene and they didn’t cast Siddig (and probably Keisha Castle-Hughes) for nothing. Let’s wait and see how all of it plays out.

      I decided to ignore the books while watching the show (although I love them) and I would advise everyone to do the same.

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    72. Dragonslayer,

      To be fair, this could go either way. I’m sure the Doran scenes will be great, but everything else doesn’t look all too promising at this point. Hopefully the context of the scenes and the actual acting make it good.

      On what’s actually going on… It looks like Jaime and Bronn successfully infiltrate the Water Gardens (looks like there’s no Sunspear in the show) and manage to reach Myrcella, where they’re surprised to find her making out with Trystane. Then they end up knocking Trystane out and trying to escape with Myrcella (which was their goal all along) but the Sand Snakes interfere.

      This whole mess is bordering on an act of war, which definitely makes Cersei look incredibly stupid for setting it in motion. Looks like she won’t be much better a ruler than book Cersei.

      I’m guessing Doran will opt to mend the relationship- and will seem like a chicken, as he does at first in the books- before revealing his real plan (through the Fire and Blood speech). Does Trystane get sent to Meereen? Possibly, but I doubt he meets the same fate as Quentyn. It’s possible Trystane will only start courting Dany when she lands in Westeros.

      Don’t know if this whole thing means there’s no Queenmaker plot in the show, but it certainly looks like it.

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    73. I don’t have a problem with Dorne story being in the show with or without M&T love story even if I find it boring. What I don’t like is Jamie+Bronn going there and skipping Riverrun with Blackfish, Genna, Edmure, etc… 🙁

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    74. Luka Nieto,

      This 1000x

      I find it amusing that people are calling this filler, and saying that Jaime should go to Riverrun as in the books. Well I hate to break it to you but that storyline was complete filler too (and yes I enjoyed it, and wanted it to be in the show, but it is not a major problem at all).

      This is the problem when a show gets this popular; there are lots off people who want to seem hip by shooting it down, whilst others are disappointed that others are liking something they liked first.

      Could this storyline be rubbish? I guess there is a chance, yes, but there is with every storyline. However, we can’t really know until we see the finished product. I don’t see a problem with people having reservations about the scene, but some of the venom that is spouted is just ridiculous.

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    75. aci,
      Honestly, I can understand why they cut the Riverrun siege. I loved it in the books, it’s a great part of book-Jaime’s character development and a classic GRRM twist (so Jaime decided he wants to become a better person – let Cersei send him against the people he swore he wouldn’t attack again)… but it still always felt like filler to me. The Tullys lost at the Red Wedding, plotwise there is no need to show the aftermath at Riverrun – especially in the show were it was nonexistent until S3.
      As long as the basics are in – Jaime’s estrangement from Cersei, Doran’s masterplan etc, I’m fine with whatever Dorne-plot D&D cook up

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    76. Luka Nieto,

      Haha great post. I am honestly clueless as to where this ‘Twilight teen romance’ thing is coming from. This is Game of Thrones for god’s sake, when have we ever seen anything work out to some twee happy ending? We even know the likely outcome for Myrcella! Discussing this show with people who have read the books is tiresome sometimes.

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    77. I’m not gonna give up all hope on the Dorne storyline, but I loved Jaime’s in AFFC, so the combination of potentially not having that and this fan fiction Dornish plot line is making me lose confidence

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    78. Greg,

      I think the show just couldn’t handle another separate storyline at this point. It’s already hard to follow, and in season 5 Tyrion, Dorne, Cersei and possibly Davos and Sam have their own storylines branching out on top of Arya, Bran, Dany, Sansa, Theon, Brienne, Jon and Stannis (by the mid season he’ll be off on his own). By the end of the season Tyrion and Dany, Theon and Stannis and possibly Sansa and Brienne will be together, which could make room for more storylines in season 6 (I think Sam and Oldtown should happen, and some sort of Greyjoy involvement). So for now Jaime bounces between the Cersei and Dorne storylines and doesn’t explode Unsullied heads (keep in mind we readers took it in two separate books with half the storylines in each- it’s going to be much more complicated to follow in the show).

      It was done to his storyline because his was the easiest to cut.

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    79. Does anyone else think that George isn’t writing an episode this season for reasons other than just trying to get The Winds of Winter finished?

      This plot just sounds stupid to me.

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    80. Quiddity,
      Improved you say? You mean the fight between Brienne and The Hound? That crap was the most shity scene that I ever see on a tv show.
      And Im not complete against the changes from the books, I actually liked the changes/filler in Bran’ storyline. But the acting in that fight scene was disgusting

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    81. I hope Jaime is not upset because it is HE who wants to be making out with Mycella.

      “Keep incest alive, keep incest ah liiivveee”. *sung in the key of Freddie*

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    82. StandOzone:
      The Dragon Demands,

      I didn’t like Missandei-GreyWorm scenes because they aren’t players of the Game of Thrones. I will prefer a character development for Ser Barristan Selmy…

      That assumes that they’re not being made into players for the show. With pretty much all of the Meereenese players cut from the show except Hizdahr, there’s sort of a vacuum there that existing characters like Grey Worm or Missandei could fill. Especially with no Shavepate in the show, Dany is going to need a strong anti-Master voice in her inner circle to oppose som of her attempts at peace, which they seem to be developing Grey Worm into.

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    83. biobi:
      Does anyone else think that George isn’t writing an episode this season for reasons other than just trying to get The Winds of Winter finished?

      This plot just sounds stupid to me.

      Yeah I think GRRM and the showrunners had good relations during the first four seasons, and it obviously changed. I don’t necessarily agree with GRRM who would want a book = a season. But I can understand the guy getting mad when the showrunners butcher his story like that.

      jentario:
      the other guy,

      If you’re afraid of spoilers you shouldn’t watch season 5. It won’t be clear what really is a spoiler and what’s a deviation, but there will be spoilers.

      Yeah well I shouldn’t have to avoid the show. I’ve read FFC&AdWD years ago, there’s 2 books worth of content to cram into 10 hours. Maybe if they had spent less time rushing Sansa’s story and making stupid changes, and more setting up good stuff from the books, we wouldn’t be there.

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    84. They have the opportunity to make Jaime and Bronn interact with great new caracters but instead they put them to surprise Myrcella in this lame piece of scene. Why HBO?

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    85. So Stannis is just going to be parked at the wall until season 6? We’ve got a real problem here. The problem is that the books won’t come out fast enough to keep up with the show, perhaps threatening both with collapse.

      From a momentum perspective, the Stannis arc must transition South, he must capture the North then contest the Iron Throne. Dany must get across the narrow Sea and contest the Throne. The Winter must become an omnipresent grind made worse by a credible threat from the White Walkers (so far they aren’t a credible threat, just a disorganized band of child kidnappers).

      All of this has to happen to set up the conclusion of book seven and season seven which is the resolution of the conflict between fire and ice and the ramifications for the human world. They may extend either or both, but then we are entering fridge nuking territory.

      Dream of Spring might come out in 2017? Three seasons from now? Either the books ruin the show, or the show ruins the books, or both. Not good.

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    86. Huh. My comment didn’t come through. Maybe an over-abundance of links.

      Anyway: Los Siete Reinos also has a report about filming that will take place in Cordoba. The production team has been sighted at a Roman bridge from the 1st Century. It was completely unknown they would film in Cordoba, so either we just didn’t know or this is a change of plans. Either way, great news.

      Here is another Spanish news site reporting on it. There are some photos from the shoot in there. Apparently, local authorities have confirmed that negotiations between them and HBO have been going on for months. The GoT production team considers Cordoba’s Roman bridge as their favorite location for a certain scene in Season 5. Apparently filming will start today and go on all day, though there is a possibility that it will continue tomorrow. There are no actors involved. The filming has been done in part with a drone. After this (at most) two-day shoot, the production team will return to Osuna and Sevilla.

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    87. I’m not sure what all the shock is here. Aside from actually hearing there’s a scene where Trystane and Myrcella are romantically linked (something that had been leaked some time ago by a redditor), how are these developments some massive mind blowing news?

      It seems like everyone posting here hasn’t been reading the news on this site for the last couple months the way they’re reacting. We KNOW Jaime and Bronn were going to Dorne to try and bring back Myrcella. We KNOW they get in a skirmish with the Sandsnakes and we KNOW that they end up being captured/detained and questioned by the Dornish.

      Then this post comes out and the first 50 comments are “OMG, Jaime’s not going to the Riverlands? Why is he going to Dorne? This is fan-fiction, waaah, waaah etc. etc”.

      It’s like we got in a time machine and went back to July here. Get your shit together fandom.

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    88. I’m noping right out of this post. There are some things that will harm my viewing of the show. It’s bad enough just to know Jaime and Bronn are going to Dorne – knowing the details is just going to annoy me more.

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    89. FunnyShae,

      You know, I try so hard to defend their decisions, because I think overall GOT has been a really good and entertaining product, but this sums up my thoughts as of late. I’m really, really struggling their decisions regarding the Dornish storyline.

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    90. Tanaburs,

      Don’t let the door hit ya where R’hllor split ya!

      This particular scene does appear contrived on the surface. But it can’t be any worse than the book version of Dorne.

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    91. Quiddity,

      That’s not the issue. D&D are proven to be incompetent when making scenes up (See Locke in s4, See Bran @ Crasters, See merged battle @ the wall, See bringing Jaime and Brienne to KL early for what? To make Jaime look like an incompetent rapist idiot? Do i have to go on??) These fools need the book but as the show goes on the stray away and just replace it with lazy cliche’s – why make up garbage like another teen love story for no reason.

      From the plotline this is already going to make Jaime look like an idiot where if they stuck with the book he would confronting his idiot cousin instead but whatever “It can’t be worse than what’s in the book”

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    92. This Dornish leaked plotline is bullshit. This doesn’t mean the entire series is bullshit, but just this one. I don’t undestand what’s the problem.

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    93. King Tommen,

      It’s either forgetfulness or denial. There might be a few who will still be shocked and outraged when the official TV story airs in Season 5 even though they’ve been here looking at spoilers for months before airing.

      I still remember when Daniel Craig was first cast as James Bond back in 2005. Wow, the outrage – he was clearly wrong for the part, because he was blond. Lol! Now, no one questions his credentials for the part. Since then, I’ve never judged anything until I’ve seen the official movie, TV show, book, etc.

      This will blow over, like all the other outrages. Next year there’ll be rants about how Season 6 is clearly ruined.

      One advantage – knowing these outrages ahead of time will keep expectations low and it won’t seem so terrible when it does finally air.

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    94. I suspect noone needs spoiler tags under this article.

      King Tommen,

      True, noone should be surprised by this because we learned about it months ago. My only concern about the scene as described above is that they have to find a simple way to explain the sudden appearence of the Sand Snakes (and mayby Areo). However the Sand Snakes know about Jamie being in Dorne (if we can believe the leaked auditions) so they may be simply waiting for him.

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    95. To be fair, they still could set up a Riverrun seige at some point. If they weren’t going to do something with the Blackfish, he would have just died with everyone else rather than taking that convenient tree break. I always wondered if he would come back and off Walder or just take Riverrun from his various offspring. THEN Jaime can jetpack it to the Riverlands and they can have their standoff.

      Who knows – could be something for next season.

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    96. I believe I somehow teleported to westeros.org…

      arden: s not the issue. D&D are proven to be incompetent when making scenes up (See Locke in s4, See Bran @ Crasters, See merged battle @ the wall, See bringing Jaime and Brienne to KL early for what? To make Jaime look like an incompetent rapist idiot? Do i have to go on??) These fools need the book but as the show goes on the stray away and just replace it with lazy cliche’s – why make up garbage like another teen love story for no reason.

      I somehow liked Bran at Crasters (apart from all the rape) and I did like Locke’s part although his reasons to go at crasters were very supid/convenient.

      The merged battles at the wall were great and in my opinion necessary.

      The early return of Jamie is not the reason for the rape desaster. We don’t need another discussion about this topic but I felt the need to reply. However, Jamie hat to return this early because they could not let him travel for much longer in season 3 because his arc needed a conclusion. Additionally, I would say that bringing him back was more than justified by his great scenes in “Two Swords” and “The Lion and the Rose”.

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    97. I’ll just add that people who accuse this plotline of being “pointless filler” and then in the next breath talk about how Jaime negotiating peace in the Riverlands like he was mopping up the beer spills after the great party the night before are pretty rich.

      Hint: the reason you probably liked those chapters was because Jaime was being cool. Jaime can be cool wherever he goes.

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    98. Roopert,

      David Bradley, who plays Walder Frey mentioned in an interview Walder would return to the show. I think it will happen in Season 6. It’s possible the Riverlands situation will be tied up then, with Walder and Edmure and company returning and such. The Blackfish might appear at the end of Season 5, like Mance did in Season 4, to set it up. As for Jaime, he’ll clearly be out of King’s Landing, probably on his way to find Brienne, while Brienne and Pod might cross paths with Sansa and Gendry and get entangled with the BwB. Jaime and Brienne could meet halfway in the Riverlands, and they’ll be involved in the Riverlands situation during Season 6. The show might fold the siege storyline with the BwB and the Frey/Red Wedding resolution.

      OK, I’ll show myself out.

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    99. Dragonslayer:
      I believe I somehow teleported to westeros.org…

      Why? Are you censored in any way? I don’t see it.

      Are you comparing reactions to what might be a show only storyline by book readers? I think the thread is pretty balanced. I read negative comments about the changes some based on book plots they liked, some based on how the outline was presented, I read some who praise the producers new way of introducing Dornish characters through established ones, and I see some like me who are content to wait, yet wonder if some of the book plots will still be presented.

      It looks pretty ok and I don’t see any mod stepping in to “warn” anyone about anything. Unless you count King Tommen’s rant! but he’s the the one sitting the Iron Throne LOL, so…

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    100. the other guy,

      Maybe if GRRM had actually given a fuck about his fans and tried to write the books, you mean? You can stop watching the show at any point. Continuing to watch it is a choice you make by yourself. And it’s not just Sansa that will be getting spoilers, that could apply to all storylines that end in an unsatisfying way in AFFC and ADWD (Stannis and Theon come to mind).

      We should be complaining that even two books weren’t enough for GRRM to finish the arcs of most of the characters.

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    101. King Tommen,

      I agree. if you look at what Jaime does in these chapters….
      Jaime III: In Harrenhal doing nothing
      Jaime IV: In Darry talking to Lancel (can happen in KL)
      Jaime V: In Riverrun talking to Devan and Genna (for no real purpose)
      Jaime VII: With Jeyne Westerling and her mother (plot does not exist)
      Jaime VIII: Bracken vs Blackwood (nuff said)
      …there really is no real reason to keep any of this journey in the show. Two important events that happen in these chapters (receiving the letter, meeting Brienne) can happen at any given location. The only chapter worth saving is:
      Jaime VI: With Blackfish and Edmure
      …though it’s, admittedly, not looking good and purely worth saving because of the badass conversation with Blackfish.

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    102. FunnyShae,

      You need to realize that D&D do some stuff in order to make the experience hard to watch and keep the viewer away from getting the idea of what really is going to happen. Example: Robb/Talisa, the unsullied viewer was never going to realize the fact that Robb was a dead man walking ever since the Stone Mill fiasco because they were so absorbed by the Robb/Talisa thing, it also made the Red Wedding more surprising and difficult to watch.

      The list goes on and on, the totally disturbing wives of craster/bad crows storyline was meant to give Jon Snow something to do before episode 9, it also was meant for the unsullied in order of keeping the faith of a Snow-Stark reunion.

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    103. jentario:
      the other guy,

      We should be complaining that even two books weren’t enough for GRRM to finish the arcs of most of the characters.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Martin needed a third book to finish.

      At least the TV series will provide some basic ending, regardless. This is what happens when an unfinished book series is adapted, unfortunately.

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    104. D&D just confirmed in the Q&A they are doing right now with fans in Sevilla that what they were shooting today in Cordoba were Volantis exteriors.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Strider,

      Any negative opinion on the show is met with scorn on this website and any other website related to GoT for that matter.

      Dragonslayer,

      Bran/Craster’s/Jon/Locke was 40 minutes of created filler like it or not.

      So, we get the epic conclusion to the mysterious Locke storyline. “Who is he? What will he do?”

      1. What is going to happen with Bran & co.?

      2. Will Jon and Bran see each other?

      3. What will happen to Jon at Craster’s Keep?

      Let’s answer these quesions

      1. Oh, nothing of any consequence. Bran wargs into Hodor and kills the bad guy and goes back to where he would have been if he had not been captured in the first place with no consequences.

      2. Nope. A forced Choose Your Own Adventure decision via Jojen causes Bran to nonsensically choose to run away, again back to where they would have been if none of this had happened with no consequences.

      3. Nothing. He kills all the bad guys, has a boss fight with Karl (Dirk), and none of the Wildling women want to go back to Castle Black with him. So, he’s back to where he would have been if none of this had happened with no consequences.

      This is filler.

      Directly from the westeros (just because it’s from there people will ignore it or dismiss it)

      http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109208-crasters-the-definition-of-filler/

        Quote  Reply

    106. Strider,

      I rather enjoy this debate. Always have. For those who hopelessly attempt to inject altruism into this discussion and claim “disbelief” regarding the attitudes expressed by this diverse community, please refer to WiC during the GoT off-season for the past 4 years. Vive la difference! Same as it ever was…. (Remember the Dorne segments from this time last year…?) I would hope this is a forum where we can examine the storylines deeply (and passionately!), express our concerns, have a laugh, and boast a bit without too much judgment. Even if there is judgment, all the better…we know where you stand.

      And for those who judge Westeros, yes there are bitter battles and snide retorts (I was banned there for a time as well for pissing off Elio), but the cumulative ASoI&F and GoT knowledge there is astounding. Any eccentric topic or bizarre issue that you want to research or explore about ASoI&F, there is a forum there to support it. This is a truly great worldwide and worldwise community. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    107. I have read all the comments and tried to make sense of them. I think it’s fun to speculate but we should reserve judgement for when we see it. Just because Jaime is going to Dorne does not entirely rule out Riverrun at some point, as many have reminded. (I personally would love to see Jaime + Blackfish and I think it’s the kind of material they would want to keep for the show if possible). Yes the Dornish storyline will be very different (and I’m super sad about the probable loss of Arianne) but I am hoping Alexander Siddig as Doran and well cast Sand Snakes will redeem some of that. More Bronn is always better, and a possible tangle with the Sand Snakes sounds like it could be good fun. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves on the negativity. I am really curious to see how it will work or not on screen! I just hope it does not interfere with Jaime’s arc since that’s something I care about dearly.

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    108. I reckon Martin is the one to blame. He could have finished Feast and Dance arcs rather well, but he chose to add unnecessary things and here we are.

        Quote  Reply

    109. Cami,

      They also said: “in Game of Thrones are three rules, no dreams or prophecies or flashbacks.”

      So what does that mean for Maggy the Frog….?

        Quote  Reply

    110. Dutch maester,

      I wasn’t there but what I have read is that they said: “in Game of Thrones we had three rules: no flashbacks, no dreams and no prophecies , we have broken the last ones.” I wil try to confirm if that was the actual quote though.

      LukaNieto,

      Not yet but you if you understand Spanish you can take a look in the hashtags #JuegodeTronos or #gotsevilla, some people were commenting live.

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    111. For the love of Bob!

      You guys have yet to even watch the damn scene yet you’re whining and moaning like you spilled your favorite bowl of cereal over a Dornish carpet!

      Give D&D some damn credit! They’ve been able to adapt a novel series that even the author thought was impossible!

      The show continues to receive critical acclaim, high ratings and is regarded as one of the best of this generation. Yet you continue to bitch and whine because they decide to change a main characters arc.

      Just be happy there is a damn show to begin with and I guarantee 99.9% of you couldn’t adapt a damn Dr. Seuss book!

      No disrespect to the remaining civil minded 1%.

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    112. I keep seeing some fans continually harp on “Jaime in the Riverlands” and how this is either a) important or b) still a possibility of happening.

      I would like to highlight a few things that the show has done in previous seasons that have made it very very clear that this part of the story is unnecessary and not going to be covered on the show.

      First off, the Blackfish: clearly he has a part to play in the books going forward and it’s a big enough deal that the show has kept him alive and available to return when he’s needed. I suspect that he will be involved with the BwB story or with LS somehow in the books and then tangentially with the Frey’s (more specifically Walder) when it’s all said and done since there doesn’t appear to be any other connection the character would have to other plots. It just makes too much sense. All we know of him at this point in the books is that he has escaped and is “on the run” in some indeterminate area of the Riverlands.

      In watching Season 3 and the lead-up to the Red Wedding, you see the show made a deliberate choice to have the Blackfish attend the RW (something he didn’t do in the books). Then they could have easily killed him off (as they did Jeyne Westerling/Talisa) at the wedding but they went out of their way to have him escape and put himself “on the run” in some indeterminate area of the Riverlands. Why else make these changes unless you wanted to get him to the same spot he is in the books but without having the whole Jaime confrontation at Riverrun in between? The Blackfish being parts unknown is key for now and unlike Talisa, him being around in the future is important so he needs to be alive.

      Next, Talisa: D&D’s knowledge of what GRRM has in store for Jeyne (ie most likely a quick cameo in TWoW to remind people she exists) was not a good enough reason to keep her around and since they knew they weren’t going to go back to Riverrun, having her attend the RW and be killed there achieved two goals. 1) create more drama/shock during massacre and 2) close off the hanging loophole of her still being around after Robb’s dead.

      Finally, the show has gone out of its way to state clearly that Walder holds Riverrun after the RW. Walder states it himself to Roose after the RW is over and last season Brienne and Pod talk about the futility of searching for the Stark girls at Riverrun because “Walder Frey holds it”. So if Walder already has it and the Blackfish isn’t there, then no siege is necessary and no point in Jaime ever going there.

      I have just provided the main plot points (such as they are) that the show would ever need in order to bother covering those chapters. The other main reason to have these chapters present is to provide a reason for Jaime to be away from Cersei and the capital while she goes through her downward spiral.

      So, the question would be: if Jaime isn’t needed in the Riverlands while Cersei goes crazy in King’s Landing, where can he go? I think Cersei ordering him to Dorne to retrieve Myrcella as opposed to her ordering him to go negotiate with characters who aren’t important makes far more sense. Cersei’s motivation to desperately want him to bring back Myrcella ties in much more with what we know about her now and how she’s going to unwind this season.

      I also think book fans are neglecting to understand exactly why the show has chosen to have Jaime make this detour. I think they made the only choice they could here as Dorne and the characters there are obviously important and need to be introduced. Unfortunately, there’s too many of them to have the audience suddenly care about them without having some kind of gateway interaction with characters they know, understand and like (Jaime and Bronn being there ensure the audience pays attention to what’s going on in these scenes). It would be infinitely harder to just throw up 7 new characters in a completely isolated location with little to no context (other than they are related to Oberyn) and expect the audience to care about their motivations and plots. Giving them Jaime and Bronn to bounce off of is very, very smart. It accomplishes the same thing the books did with Jaime (gets him away from Cersei for a legit reason) but instead of him talking to characters who we almost assuredly won’t deal with again, he bridges us into a major centrepiece group for the final 3 seasons.

      And I still think at the end of the day, Jaime’s end destination after the Dorne excursion is to link back up with Brienne and encounter the BwB (in whatever form the show chooses to make them). That could happen as soon as the end of this season or they may just set it up for S6.

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    113. King Tommen,

      Bravo. You explained it perfectly.

      And yes, apparently Benioff said that while at first they had three rules of “no flashbacks, no dreams and no prophecies”, now they have broken the last two.

      So, still no flashabacks, and thank God… not that any sane person thought they’d be introduced; it’s already impossible to adapt everything, so introducing flashbacks would turn the adaptation process into a nightmare. Anyway, this means prophecies will be introduced in Season 5. As for dreams, Sansa already had a flashback-dream in Season 2. I imagine we’ll have a dream which functions as a flashback (although it isn’t so, not directly anyway) and introduces a prophecy. Maggy the Frog, as we all assumed.

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    114. LukaNieto:
      King Tommen,

      Bravo. You explained it perfectly.

      And yes, apparently at the Sevilla event Benioff has said that while at first they had three rules of “no flashbacks, no dreams and no prophecies”, now they have broken the last two.

      So, still no flashabacks, and thank God… not that any sane person thought they’d be introduced; it’s already impossible to adapt everything and introducing flashbacks would make it a nightmare to make a coherent story. Anyway, this means prophecies will be introduced (Sansa already had a dream in Season 2.) So, yeah, we’ll have a dream/prophecy scene with Maggy the Frog, as we all assumed.

      Young Cersei encountering Maggy the Frog/getting prophecy before dissolving to Cersei being woken up from this dream by the bells for Tywin’s funeral= S5 cold open FTW!!

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    115. And so it begins, D & D’s butchering of my favourite character 🙁

      I am really, really not looking forward to season 5.

        Quote  Reply

    116. King Tommen: Young Cersei encountering Maggy the Frog/getting prophecy before dissolving to Cersei being woken up from this dream by the bells for Tywin’s funeral= S5 cold open FTW!!

      Awesome visual….either MtF or a sad Dorne RV delivery by Ellaria would be a great cold open for S5. Is it a flashback if it is contained within a haunting Cersei dream? Seriously though, enough exposition already. I hope they adapt some of the great past events of these interesting character’s lives!

        Quote  Reply

    117. King Tommen,

      Yes, I’d be really surprised if that’s not the cold open of the season.

      Hodor’s Bastard,

      Well, certainly there’s still no direct flashbacks. The only reason Maggy that the frog’s prophecy slips through is that it is dreamt by Cersei, just as it was in the books (Sansa’s dream as well, remembering the attempted rape, in aCoK/season 2.) And no, I don’t think Bran’s arc this coming season will be reduced to a cheap flashback deployment station. Will Bran see any events of the past, the present or the future via the interconnected weirwood trees? Probably. But I think it’s best not to expect Bran’s scenes to be used as a method of direct exposition through flashbacks.

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    118. LukaNieto:
      King Tommen,

      Bravo. You explained it perfectly.

      And yes, apparently Benioff said that while at first they had three rules of “no flashbacks, no dreams and no prophecies”, now they have broken the last two.

      So, still no flashabacks, and thank God… not that any sane person thought they’d be introduced; it’s already impossible to adapt everything, so introducing flashbacks would turn the adaptation process into a nightmare. Anyway, this means prophecies will be introduced in Season 5. As for dreams, Sansa already had a flashback-dream in Season 2. I imagine we’ll have a dream which functions as a flashback (although it isn’t so, not directly anyway) and introduces a prophecy. Maggy the Frog, as we all assumed.

      Well put. And they’ve also done well to make just about all of the dreams and prophecies related specifically to Bran or a character in an unusual state of being (the House of the Undying). It was important to ground the series, honestly.

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    119. King Tommen,

      Really nice points here on all of this. I think some people are going in with the intention of hating this, for no reason, or the single reason that it isn’t what the books does. But the show has adequately set up the events that lead the Blackfish to be on the run; the rest is largely immaterial.

      The only real essential Jaime moment that would possibly be lost by not having him go to the Riverlands is his meet-up with Aunt Gemma, a wonderful, sweet character-building moment: “Tyrion is Tywin’s son” that was memorable. That and whatever eventual meet with Brienne, of course. But I’d still love to see Jaime’s aunt. It’s a great one-episode role along the lines of Septon Meribald (also hoping to see him).

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    120. I’ve read enough books, seen enough movies and watched enough TV shows to say definitively that prophecies are THE WORST. Whatever the show can do to eliminate or at least scale down the impact of them is a good thing.

      I’ll never know why GRRM felt the need to include (I believe) 8 million prophecies in ASOIAF. Hopefully he’s learned his lesson.

        Quote  Reply

    121. LukaNieto,
      Bran’s cinematic future is troubling, indeed. I wonder if he will ever learn of BR’s crazy bad-ass past (not unlike the pasts of many previous NW leaders) and somehow figure out what is coming for Westeros. Maybe he’ll get tired easily of the horribly miscast “one thousand eyes and two” rootbeard and decide he needs to venture out of the cave sooner than later to make a difference.

      Fly, Bran, fly! (….well, maybe not literally…)

      *weirdwood* – yer funny 🙂

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    122. Greatjon of Slumber,

      While I share your fondness for Gemma (Meribald can die in a fire as far as I’m concerned), it’s hard to justify having a main character’s arc take them off to a location for much of the season just so they can have one good conversation with a character that we probably never see again. Maybe they can find a way to have her visit King’s Landing at some point down the road and bounce off the characters there much like Olenna does.

        Quote  Reply

    123. Greatjon of Slumber,
      King Tommen,

      Gemma’s comment about Tyrion being Tywin’s true son and not Jaime is literally the only thing I think is irreplaceable from Jaime’s AFFC chapters. There’s still hope, though. If Kevan is back as rumored, he can be the one to deliver that line just before Jaime departs and it would still make sense. In fact, much of his Riverlands interactions could be taken to King’s Landing; we know Lancel is at the capital, so there you can have their conversation from AFFC.

      Hodor’s Bastard,

      Horribly miscast?

      I thought Struan Rodger did a fantastic job. Not that he had the opportunity to do much, but I thought he did great with the very few lines he was given. If you are talking about how different he looks in the books, that has absolutely nothing to do with casting. Blame the makeup and special effects deparments.

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    124. LukaNieto,

      I guess it’s an “eye of the beholder” thing then. I hold BR and his legacy in the highest of regard. Age, enfeebled disposition and decay do not come to mind when one gazes upon the three-eyed crow for the first time. All we got was a weak, old Carcosa with a few well-preserved lines. (wow, am I opinionated today or what?)

      Edit: Hey, your post disappeared! wtf? Publish then moderate….

        Quote  Reply

    125. Ironborn,

      Beat me to it!
      Must admit this leak worries me as does the whole thought of Season 5 at the moment (whenever shows stray from thr source material too much they suffer) but hopfully I’ll be proven wrong. If anything can make Dorne interesting then sending two of the more interesting characters down there is it but on this evidence even they might struggle.
      What worries me even more is that am I the only one who can’t see this finishing in seven seasons without it being severely rushed and things slashed left, right and centre? Can’t really understand why they’ve backed themselves into a corner by saying that’s how many it will take?

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    126. Luka Nieto,

      Thank you. Very well said.

      Seriano,

      I agree. There is some fantastic information on that site, but I quickly grew weary of all the vitriol directed at seemingly all things D&D. Have I liked every change they’ve made? No. Am I going to start screaming they’re “incompetent,” call them “fools,” shout what they write is “garbage,” “fan-fic,” and “bullshit?” Nope.
      Some of the comments on this article bring to mind what I used to wonder when I would read all the ripping apart of D&D over on Westeros: Could the people wailing and waving their fists have done anywhere near as good a job as D&D have done, much less any better? No? That’s what I thought.

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    127. This 🙂

      Hodor’s Bastard:
      Strider,

      I rather enjoy this debate. Always have. For those who hopelessly attempt to inject altruism into this discussion and claim “disbelief” regarding the attitudes expressed by this diverse community, please refer to WiC during the GoT off-season for the past 4 years. Vive la difference! Same as it ever was…. (Remember the Dorne segments from this time last year…?) I would hope this is a forum where we can examine the storylines deeply (and passionately!), express our concerns, have a laugh, and boast a bit without too much judgment. Even if there is judgment, all the better…we know where you stand.

      And for those who judge Westeros, yes there are bitter battles and snide retorts (I was banned there for a time as well for pissing off Elio), but the cumulative ASoI&F and GoT knowledge there is astounding. Any eccentric topic or bizarre issue that you want to research or explore about ASoI&F, there is a forum there to support it. This is a truly great worldwide and worldwise community.

        Quote  Reply

    128. TheTouchOfFrost,

      I still believe, legal or not, popular or not, that GRRM gave them the story through TWoW (and a little bit of ADoS) only….many false summits, so to speak. He is saving the “scouring of the Shire” for himself.

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    129. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Just hope that whatever they put together doesn’t ruin the books for some of us. Even tempted to not watch season 6 and 7 until I’ve read the books (even though that will be one hell of a wait).

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    130. TheTouchOfFrost,

      S1 – S4 were fun and cool. I don’t expect any difference with S5, although we will have fun dissecting this delicious, robust beast before, during and after! We have an insatiable appetite! I do share your concern about spoilage…but da books be da books and da show be da show.

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    131. Turncloak:
      Veltigar,

      I interpreted te hand shake the other way around and I think the source just got the hands mixed up.

      Trystane offers his hand to Jaime’s real hand but Jaime uses his metal hand instead for the shake. It is both insulting and hilarious when you look at it this way. Then paired up with Bronn knocking out Trystane lol. I think they are going with comedy for this sequence

      I’d like to see a more burlesque swordfight break out. Just for fun, a bit more Errol Flynn style fighting. That would fit the Sand Snakes pretty well 🙂

      jentario:
      Veltigar,

      Nice one Velti, thumbs up

      Thanks, I live to entertain :p

      Sid: Calling it now – this is season 5 in a nutshell.

      It would be a nice Dornish catchphrase don’t you think 😀 It would be quite funny if Trystane is this goodlooking dolt and everyone (Sand Snakes, Doran, Areoh, Myrcella) would just say ‘Trystane, you stupid wanker.’ everytime he does something hilariously wrong.

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    132. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I know to enjoy them both as seperate entities but the main plotlines can’t venture that far away from the books surely? Although D&D seem to have more interest in certain characters and storylines than I do, so hopefully that’s more their preference than what is more important.

        Quote  Reply

    133. Seriano,

      Pshaw. Not even close. I’d expound more on the faculties of that site’s community, but I am trying to rein in my ableist tendencies. For I am a good person and trying to improve every day.

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    134. If the ” I love you, I love you, I love you” letter is not in this season I will die…

      This idea is so 4/10…

      Why can’t they just stick to the books?

        Quote  Reply

    135. Margo,

      Budget, time constraints, and some scenes simply wouldn’t work on tv. Besides, Books 4 and 5 were a convoluted mess. Making changes could be a good thing.

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    136. Wow this scene sounds horrible and it’s not a good sign for things going forward. I know things are going to be drastically different, and that sucks, but i was hoping they’d come up with something better than this.

      “Let’s put all the bad asses in a fight scene with no purpose but to show how badass they are” sounds like something a fan would come up with haha

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    137. JSnow:
      Wow this scene sounds horrible and it’s not a good sign for things going forward.I know things are going to be drastically different, and that sucks, but i was hoping they’d come up with something better than this.

      At least you don’t have to worry about being spoiled by the show. Anything they do that projects into future book story lines, may just be total invention by the show runners.

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    138. Young Dragon:
      Margo,

      Budget, time constraints, and some scenes simply wouldn’t work on tv. Besides, Books 4 and 5 were a convoluted mess. Making changes could be a good thing.

      Anyone who thinks books 4 and 5 were a “convoluted mess” is probably someone who says “convoluted mess” in order to sound slightly smarter.

      Those books were easy to follow, unless you have difficulty with basic story telling.

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    139. GeekFurious,

      They were a mess. Even the most religious GRRM apologists agree on this front. That said, the mess of the books doesn’t justify bad show-only plotlines.

      But we have to wait till we see this ourselves before we judge.

        Quote  Reply

    140. aurane waters,

      So, you mean to say that this whole fight scene will amount to a cultural formality misunderstanding? So at the end of the episode, Trystane’s supposed say, “Sorry Jaime, my bad on that one. Glad neither of us was killed. Ha ha.”

        Quote  Reply

    141. GeekFurious,

      “Convoluted mess” seems to be the most widely used term when describing the two books, so I gave it a try. And I was speaking plot wise. Too many new characters, new location, travelogues, etc. You can disagree with me if you want, but you have to admit that AFFC and ADWD weren’t as well received as the other books.

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    142. The word that best describes AFFC and ADwD is “bloated”. While both are nice continuations of the ASOIAF series in order to get us to the good stuff presumably in the final 2 books, there are many chapters that a good part of the readership would describe as a “slog” to get through.

      I’m not entirely sure about trying to do the amount of massive world building these books are attempting by introducing a significant amount of characters and locations to an already overflowing narrative. D&D are correct in saying that once you reach the halfway point in your story, your world should begin to start contracting, not expanding.

      AFFC and ADwD are written almost like GRRM has another 5 books in mind as opposed to 2. I’m not going to be surprised if both TWoW and ADoS are magnum opus volumes with the largest page count of any books in the series by a good amount. And I don’t consider that a particularly great development.

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    143. It’s interesting to think about the ramifications of these plot changes, as they possibly telegraph the importance or lack of importance of characters.

      Stuff brought up in this thread:
      >
      cutting Arianne – this I presume means her presence in the Small Council that’s supposed to happen in TWOW is not critical to the rest of ASOIAF.

      Aegon, if indeed he doesn’t happen on the show, is clearly not one of the “three heads of the dragon”

      Quentyn getting fried by Dany’s dragons doesn’t seem to mater to Doran’s big picture scheme, if there’s no Quentyn on the show.

      RE: cutting out the Riverrun siege, I do still wonder if the story and show will give what all readers want: the Frey’s comeuppance. Are they showing Wyman Manderly and his awesome “North Remembers” speech? Are they planning to remind viewers about the violation of guest’s rights by the Freys?

      </spoiler

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    144. oppo,

      Then there is that issue with the 3rd leech, that little impotent rascal. I guess we should assume that the ironborn don’t matter then? ….NOT!

      Hey, aren’t you supposed to be headless?

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    145. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I’m listening to the audiobooks in a combined AFFC/ADWD as well, “A Ball of Beasts.” I highly recommend it. Despite ordering the AFFC and ADWD chapters mostly chronologically, some of them are delayed or brought forward so that certain revelations are not spoiled, which makes it great even for a first reading.

      For example, in this version, after Davos is imprisoned (from ADWD), Cersei hears about it (AFFC) and later about his death (her next AFFC chapter), and only then comes the next Davos chapter in which Manderly’s ruse is revealed. Similarly, Quentyn’s first ADWD chapters are delayed quite a bit, and the early AFFC Dornish chapters are more condensed so that Quentyn first appears (“The Merchant’s Man”) immediately after Doran reveals where he has sent him (“The Princess in the Tower”.)

      Honestly, this AFFC/ADWD amalgamation, “A Ball of Beasts”, turns out to be much better paced than the two separate books, and they make for a much more exciting read.

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    146. jentario:
      GeekFurious,

      They were a mess. Even the most religious GRRM apologists agree on this front. That said, the mess of the books doesn’t justify bad show-only plotlines.

      But we have to wait till we see this ourselves before we judge.

      People that you read who agree with you aren’t the majority. They’re just extremists.

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    147. King Tommen:
      The word that best describes AFFC and ADwD is “bloated”. While both are nice continuations of the ASOIAF series in order to get us to the good stuff presumably in the final 2 books, there are many chapters that a good part of the readership would describe as a “slog” to get through.

      I can accept “bloated” even though I loved pretty much everything about the bloat. But “convoluted” is ridiculous. Not to mention, short sighted seeing as much of what I’ve seen people complain about is setup for the next two books. How do you know if it is “bloated” or “convoluted” without context?

      I absorbed it as pieces of a massive story. All of it is necessary on some level.

        Quote  Reply

    148. King Tommen,

      And what makes you think that we DON’T have 5 more books left? 🙂
      Keep in mind that in the original 6-book plan (before the 5 year gap got cut), Dany was supposed to land at Westeros in book 4. That means that after her first landing, GRRM still had 2 books left of Dany in Westeros. He made the first book into three (AFFC, ADWD and TWOW- presumably when Dany lands in Westeros), so who’s to say he won’t do the same with the last two?

      I think we’ll have at least 8 books.

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    149. AFFC is the best book in the series. It’s hard to get into at first, because it introduces so many new characters (and leaves out a lot of the popular oldies), but it does a brilliant job at portraying the fall-out of the events that shaped ASOS.

      It’s that book that really shows GRRM’s brilliance, because he takes something that regular fantasybooks would gloss over in a few pages (A lot of times, the pain and the destruction of the world of old in fantasy is limited to a story told by some oldtimer who remembers the good ol’ days) and gives it time to breath.

      He does a brilliant job at introducing a lot of new characters (better than AGOT did actually). There is also a lot of variety in these new POV-characters, more than in the ones introduced in AGOT (almost all children and all outsiders one way or another).

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    150. There is a man who lives to serve, a religious fanatic, a true knight insecure about her place in the world, an evil queen who descends headfirst into madness, a brutish man who hates his brother with a passion and so on. The other characters that already had a PoV also get put to good use. We see more growth in Asha and in Theon.

      We also get a much better understanding of the world and how the war affected people besides the Starks and the Lannister. GRRM shows us what horror the smallfolk has to endure (Septon Meribald’s brilliant speech). He shows us what kind of unexpected consequences rise up when you shatter the old powerbalance (Euron takes the Shield Islands, the rise of the Sparrows, the nastiness of the new BWB).

      There is also damn fine prose (again Septon Meribald’s speech is one of this series crowning beauties, alongside the ToJ-sequence and Theon’s chapters in ADWD) and a lot of humour (Cersei and Victarion are disturbingly hillarious to follow).

      AFFC had a though act to follow and I think people generally mistake the purpose of that book. A lot of complaints I have read are about pacing and about how slow it all was after ASOS. But really, the books couldn’t possibly keep up the same momentum. ASOS was the end of the First Act, it had two books worth of build-up to profit from. AFFC almost has to start from scratch, setting things up for Act two and three and it does so perfectly.

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    151. oppo,

      Arianne isn’t meant to be in the small council in TWOW, you are confusing her with Nymeria (who IS in the show). Arianne will instead intermingle with Aegon, and that’s probably why she is getting cut (because Aegon got cut). That’s not to say that they won’t be important in the books, I’m sure they will be, but Aegon in general is a pretty heavy plot addition to add so late in the story and the show only has 7 seasons to wrap things up… I think the wise thing for the show to do would have been to keep Arianne and have her assume the role of a Sand Snake after she is done with AFFC/ADWD material by doing just what you thought she was doing and replacing Nymeria in the small council. Then we’d get two Sand Snakes (Tyene and Obara) with the promise of more to come in later seasons (Sarella and Elia), Arrianne and Trystane (with Quentyn cut) and Doran and Areo for the Dorne cast. I think it would have been far more satisfying than whatever it is they’re doing right now (described above). But oh well… D&D don’t seem to be Arianne fans.

      GeekFurious,

      Two full books of set up aren’t great. A full season of set up isn’t great either.

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    152. GeekFurious,

      I enjoyed AFFC for what it was, and fucking loved ADWD… but they were a whopping big mess. GRRM admits that neither book got as far as he planned them to get when they were one book. Think how much that story grew out of GRRM’s control. Count the number of point of view characters and storylines. Try to see the sheer amount of travelogues and the torrent of worldbuilding. It’s too much. It’s a mess. This series is in it’s midway point, you can’t just add so much to it all of a sudden. There are only a few fulfilling arcs in these books, and all of them leave much to be desired.

      You said it yourself- two books of set up.

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    153. I get the complaints about ADWD though. It’s a real shame to, because when ADWD is on, it’s easily the best work GRRM has produced for this series. All the Northern arcs (Theon, Jon, Mel, Davos, Bran, Asha) are a triumph, Victarion, Jaime, JonCon Barristan and Cersei are great as well.

      Sadly, the book severly lacks in other aspects. For starters, there is no clear conclusion to the book at all. A natural ending would have been to stop with at least one major battle as climax. Now, it just sort of ends (there are some “shockers”, but not enough to build a proper ending around) and feels unfinished. Luckily, that complaint will probably be less of an issue, once we can bingeread the entire series.

      Another problem can be found in some of the chapters of Dany and Tyrion. I think Dany’s ADWD chapters contain some of the most interesting ideas in the entire series, but for to long those have to take a backseat to 50 shades of Daario. Once all that ridiculous stuff is put out of the way (Daznak’s pitt), things start to get really interesting again really fast.

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    154. With Tyrion, he has some interesting chapters, namely a certain boattrip he makes with a certain somebody. All his other chapters are (incredibly) bad, especially where Penny is played up (I think it’s pretty interesting that Penny and Daario are the ones who weigh these PoV’s down).

      Another thing ADWD struggles with is weaker worldbuilding. While AFFC succeeded tremendously in fleshing out several relatively unknown places out (the Iron Island, Dorne, the Smallfolk PoV), ADWD only really succeeded to do that with the Mountain Clans and Wildlings.

      In ADWD on the other hand, we were stuck in Essos for a lot of the time. Now Essos isn’t that bad when compared to your usual fantasy crap (I love the genre, but there is a lot of crap out there), but it just isn’t good enough to compare with Westeros at all as a setting. The Ghiscari are one-dimensional, Dothraki, the Qartheen, etc. So far, the farther east you go, the more stereotyped the worldbuilding gets in the books.

      EDIT: And I’m still pretty pissed about le droit du seigneur making it into Westeros history in ADWD. One of the worst historical myths out there imo.

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    155. GeekFurious: How do you know if it is “bloated” or “convoluted” without context?

      Bless your heart. There is no “knowing” about what makes a convoluted or bloated book; it’s almost entirely subjective and you know it. Even GM’s editor tried to take stuff out, sometimes Anne Groell was successful in keeping that stubborn mule on track but mostly she couldn’t get him to plow straight. Calling ADWD bloated or convoluted is not without basis. Though I prefer the term “irredeemable piece of shit”.

      My opinion, of course. Even the most glowing reviews of that knotted fecal blockage of a book mentioned, charitably, that it could have used some more editing. Groell agrees with this sentiment. If you look at her staged Q&A with fans on Vulture (was it Vulture?) she admits ADWD was rushed out the door.

      I am not saying everyone should dislike ADWD, it’s a matter of taste. People bashing on ADWD can actually provide support for their criticisms whereas the besotted fannies can only say, “Well, [i]I[/i] liked it.”

      I left AFFC out of the above criticism. I think it’s the worst of the lot, but, I hate to admit it, AFFC was very well written. In terms of craft, it might be the best of the series. Still, fuck that book too.

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    156. Veltigar,

      Veltigar,

      I’m going to have to disagree. The book would have been a whole lot better if the only Dorne POV would have been Arianne from start to finish instead of a new POV every chapter (it would have allowed for much better character development, and would have made the whole thing feel more cohesive). The same applies to the Iron Islands- is Aeron really necessary at this point? If he becomes important as a POV later, introduce his POV later. Asha would have been enough for the Iron Islands POVs. Imagine that- an AFFC that introduces two or three new POV characters instead of 8! Wouldn’t that have been easier to stomach? The exact same plot developments would have been achieved, with a far more organized premise.

      And I do think the pace was bad. Brienne’s first two chapters essentially consist of her walking around and asking people if they’ve seen Sansa. Again and again and again. Every chapter in that book is around 20 pages long (I counted! it drove me crazy!). Why must this Brienne chapter, where all she really does is meet Podrick, why must it have 15 pages of Brienne asking random people if they’ve seen Sansa? Wouldn’t one have been enough? Two? Three? Five? This happens all around AFFC. It’s a tedious book to read, and it takes far too long to get used to the sluggish pace. The story only really gets moving half way through the book. That just isn’t good, sorry. I would have prefer GRRM to let more time pass between chapters and just recap the uneventful ones in POV memories.

      My point is, the book could have been considerably shorter and less tedious. It could have been for more organized and fulfilling with less new POVs. It could have been much more entertaining if the few old POVs that are there would have had more to do (only 3 chapters for Arya and Sansa? and Sansa accomplishes next to nothing in hers, which is just annoying). It would have been much much better without the geographic split. AFFC is a problematic book, and no amount of good prose will fix that.

      I respect your opinion that it is the best in teh series, but I’ll have to disagree. I think it’s by far the most flawed ASOIAF book, even if it has some great moments in it (such as the broken men speech that you mentioned).

      Now IMO ADWD is much better in that regard. The problem with ADWD, is that the ending was cut away. If it had been 200 pages longer, I’m sure it would have reached a satisfying conclusion all along. And I do think better editing of the existing chapters could have allowed for the proper ending to be in it.

      In any case, while adapting these books the show must do two things:
      1. Combine the books and avoid the geographic split with a vengeance
      2. Reach satisfying conclusions all around

      This creates a problem. Some storylines will end before their last AFFC/ADWD chapter (with the Daznak Pit in episode 9 or 10). Other storylines will dip into TWOW (Arya and probably Sansa and Theon/Stannis/Asha). Now getting it all together in one season is impossible- so a lot of cuts follow. Any character that isn’t incremental to the plot will get cut. Some whole storylines will get cut or delayed (see Jaime in Riverrun, the Greyjoys, the Griffs and Sam in Oldtown). This is unavoidable.

      That said, I do think this whole Dorne business ISN’T unavoidable. If it turns out half as bad as I fear it may, that would be a big mistake on D&D’s part. And I like to think Dorne had a lot of potential, just going by the books, which makes this a damn shame (assuming this storyline doesn’t end up surprising me when season 5 rolls along).

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    157. Angel,
      That’s one of the main issues I have with this adaptation. There is too much focus on the shock factor and not enough on developing the storylines and characters. Unsullied viewers were certainly surprised by the red wedding but how many were emotionally invested in it?

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    158. FunnyShae,

      Huh. Honestly? Like… most people? Because most show-watchers were actually invested in the Robb/Talisa stuff, and many liked Catelyn. Most of all, it was seen as a tragedy; the death of the Starks in the game of thrones. Are we watching the same show?

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    159. Remember when everyone was freaking out about the Pedro Pascal casting this time last year?

      And now other than Sean Bean as Ned, most fans (including myself) hold him up as the best translation of a character from book to screen.

      Can we all just stop complaining about what we ‘think’ is going to happen on the show and just wait until it airs? Speculation is fine. Just wait until it appears on screen. If anything, we should know that D&D are just as big of fans of the books as we are and so far they’ve done the books justice within their feasible limits. They’ve taken a fantasy book series (with modern themes of course) and transformed it into the most popular show on television not named The Walking Dead and the most watched show in the history of HBO, which is considered the top of television programming by a wide margin. Even GRRM has said that the books are the books and the show is the show. Everyone just cool it on your complaints. Some are justified, but not now; wait until the show airs. Everyone has a different opinion. Just sit back, speculate, and wait, with an open mind.

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    160. FunnyShae,

      I find it hilarious that you’re criticizing the show for not developing its characters enough and as an examole you bring up the Red Wedding. Legitimate gripes about Catelyn aside, Robb abd Talisa were much more developed on the show than in the books. Take a look at any of the numerous Red Wedding reaction vids, featuring tears in many of them, and tell yourself that people weren’t emotionally invested in that storyline.

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    161. Luka Nieto,

      The more I inspect that “Ball of Beasts” site, the more I wonder how they get away with it. The “Boiled Leather” site is really just a fan site with passive references to an AFfC/ADwD reading order, but the BoB site gives the shit away in PDF! The ethical minority report within me is shocked that GRRM’s lawyers and publishers don’t shut it down. Odd.

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    162. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I didn’t personally download it, I just used the chapter list to reorganize my AFFC & ADWD audiobooks. However, the reason they do get away with it is the security measure that basically intends to ensure that you own a copy of ADWD (you have to write the last word of its epilogue.) Sure, you could look it up online or at a library, but, oh well, it’s something at least. Nevertheless, please do read this order. It’s a MUCH more satisfying read.

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    163. LukaNieto,

      Oh, I re-read it in that order several years back (and have recommended it) after Boiled Leather first came out. (I thought that was clear) But the BoB site’s obvious disregard for licensing is stunning.

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    164. Patchy Face,

      Siege of riverrun was great. All of it . Daven Lannister’s relationship with Jaime , Jaime and Blackfish, Jaime and the frey’s, Jaime and Edmure….Tom O’Sevens!!!!!! Boggles my mind theat they would cut all that

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    165. I’m really looking forward to this storyline. Dorne was all kinds of wasted potential in the books, but this new take sounds tense and intriguing. We can get around to the Riverlands later.

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    166. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Of course it’s a future book spoiler. Any plots or characters that are cut, are cut for a reason. DnD want this finished in 7 Seasons, and thus anything that isn’t critical to the central plot is a ‘waste of time’ in their eyes.

      And YET, we get some lovely time-wasting in Dorne with Jamie and more Missandei/Grey Worm romance! Yay!

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    167. jentario,
      Veltigar,

      I think you both have made excellent points, I’ve enjoyed reading your detailed discussion. I agree it would have been much better with fewer new POV introduced (Aeron, perfect example), and I got reeeeeaaalllly sick of Brienne wandering around the Riverlands (as much as I love her). I agree some of the most exciting material was in Dance, and that it was weighed down by the likes of Penny (seriously?), and I agree with your worldbuilding point. I think in an ideal world we would have had a similar but different combined version of these two (as GRRM originally intended) which D&D need to try to put together, on top of TV show constraints. I’m hoping they will rise to the occasion! [holds breath]

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    168. Ser Matt the Sullen,

      Yes… Oh, no, character development! *shudder*

      Daenerys needs ACTUAL characters to interact with, people with their own agency, story and personal goals. Jorah was so, particularly in Season 1. Who does she have now? D&D are trying to turn Missandei and Grey Worm into actual people. You may disagree with their method, but don’t pretend it doesn’t have a purpose.

      As for Dorne and Jaime… I won’t even try. If you can’t see how Dorne is important or why Jaime is going there, I really can’t help you.

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