Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 3 photos released, featuring battle scene and crypts!

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Varys and Tyrion are in the crypts, which is what we expected. Photo: HBO / Helen Sloan

In keeping with the Season 8 tactic of not releasing episode titles ahead of time, it’s still unknown what to call the sure-to-be-emotionally-devastating third episode of Season 8 of Game of Thrones. But thanks to this new crop of official photos from the episode, we know to prepare ourselves for the worst this week — for the very, very worst.

The first photo above the cut shows Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) and Varys (Conleth Hill) in the crypts, which is not surprising — although Tyrion, who had wanted to be on the battlements, is still wearing his armor.

Caption

Emilia Clarke as Daenerys and Kit Harington as Jon Snow. Photo: HBO / Helen Sloan.

The next image, as a screen capture and not a photo taken by Helen Sloan, is one that looks familiar from the Episode 3 preview: Dany and Jon looking down onto Winterfell from the high ground. Did they fly there on dragonback for one last look at the defenses? This looks like it jibes with moment from the preview in which Jon tells Dany “The Night King is coming,” to which Dany responds, “The dead are already here.”

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Nikolaj Coster-Waldau as Jamie Lannister (left) and Gwendoline Christie as Ser Brienne of Tarth, leading Northmen and Knights of the Vale. Photo: HBO / Helen Sloan. 

In another image taken directly from the episode and familiar from the preview, Brienne commands the left flank (with Jamie serving under her), and this looks like the moment we see her yelling “Hold!” Jamie certainly looks ready to lunge at something.

Sophie Turner as Sansa Stark and Maisie Williams as Arya Stark.

Sophie Turner as Sansa Stark and Maisie Williams as Arya Stark. Photo: HBO / Helen Sloan.

It looks as though this is the moment when Sansa, about to head down to the safety of the crypts, hears Arya say that she’s staying there to fight. Sansa looks worried but resigned — she knows she can’t convince Arya otherwise.

Sophie Turner as Sansa Stark. Photo courtesy of HBO.

Sophie Turner as Sansa Stark. Photo: HBO / Helen Sloan.

Sansa may be down in the crypts here, side-eyeing suspicious at someone. But who?

Kit Harington as Jon Snow. Photo courtesy of HBO.

Kit Harington as Jon Snow. Photo: HBO / Helen Sloan.

Lastly, in another known capture, we (barely) see Jon Snow deeply concerned, even frightened. We see fire behind him, which was glimpsed on the battlements of Winterfell in the first Season 8 trailer, but also in the godswood in the next time preview. Is he seeing the Night King? Realizing the army of the dead attack is a feint and the Night King is actually on his way to King’s Landing (a theory that I’m more convinced by the minute is true)? Or something worse, if things could possibly get worse?

Let us know your thoughts in the comments!

346 responses

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    1. OMG I can’t handle the suspense, and for that, I say HODOR!

      *ALSO* is Sansa in the crypts? She looks like she is sitting next to a direwolf statue. And now I am nervous for her.

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    2. I’m surprised that Jon and Dany are so far away from the castle. Is that where the dragons are being “kept”?

      The second one with Sansa looks like she might be in the crypts?

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    3. The only good thing about having to watch Episode 2 a couple days late (while avoiding spoilers!!) is this one is only five days later for me!

      I haven’t read much speculation about the season out of concern for reading spoilers, so has the possibility been discussed that

      like in the books, Beric will sacrifice himself to revive someone else? I was thinking specifically The Hound, who will then technically be undead just like his brother if there winds up being a Cleganebowl. I just don’t see them killing him off after living nine lives without some greater purpose.

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    4. Jon’s expression is even worse than the one he had during the aftermath at Hardhome. Yikes.

      Might have to call in sick Monday morning. Too emotionally wrecked.

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    5. It’s hard to even look at the pictures without tearing up!!! I hope their hard work shooting this episode pays off. Watch out for an undead Hodor!!!

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    6. James Rivers,

      I’ve been under the impression for a while that they didn’t do LS and kept Beric alive and in the show for so long so that he can give “the kiss of life” to someone else. Only yesterday did my friend mention that it might be the Hound. I definitely think that’s the most likely option with the relationship they’ve formed.

      Plus, I think D&D would LOVE to make people think the Hound got killed only to bring him back.

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    7. Sansa’s brooding game is starting to rival Jon and Tyrion’s.

      I get that the known characters have to avoid wearing helmets, so it’s easier to identify them onscreen, but damn, they really should put on a freaking helmet!

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    8. Looper,

      I would agree. I just can’t see him dying in battle like thousands of foot soldiers. What would be the point of all those repeated resurrections?

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    9. Mr Derp,

      Maybe it’s like when they filmed in Iceland where it was bitterly cold. They didn’t allow them head coverings as on screen they would be harder to identify.

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    10. Raenarys,

      I need to prepare myself. Quoting Littlefinger: “Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend, every possible series of events is happening all at once”.

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    11. i wonder how much the J&D picture shows armys in the field that do not match the setup we saw on the table when team breathing made their battle plans…

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    12. James Rivers and Looper,

      That is such a good idea! I hope it is true. Beric is ready to die. He has said do many times. If he give life to the Hound, then the Hound will really know he is alive for a reason.

      I don’t know if Sansa is giving side eye or looking to see who is coming in to tell her someone else she loves has died.

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    13. Looper: I’ve been under the impression for a while that they didn’t do LS and kept Beric alive and in the show for so long so that he can give “the kiss of life” to someone else.

      I think it more probable that Beric will die some fairly spectacular death that allows many others to survive. At any rate, didn’t the trailer for Ep. 3 show him and the Hound in “fall back” (a.k.a., “Run Away!”) mode in Winterfell?

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    14. death by chickenfire:
      i wonder how much the J&D picture shows armys in the field that do not match the setup we saw on the table when team breathing made their battle plans…

      It matches it pretty well, actually.

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    15. Juri,

      Nice callback. Probably the best advice he ever gave, that he should’ve followed himself lol. But I know, I know, I shouldn’t be naive… Anyone can go even the wolf 🙁 Maybe Nymeria’s pack will jump in?! 😉

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    16. Roberta Baratheon: I don’t know if Sansa is giving side eye or looking to see who is coming in to tell her someone else she loves has died.

      The one constant lesson of still shots is that we really cannot tell anything from 99% of them. (If I had a nickel for every incorrect “that publicity still can only mean XXX,” then I would have one metric shit-ton of nickels!)

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    17. LEA:
      Why is Jon not wearing armor in the last shot? Sansa looks like she’s been crying in the one above Jon.

      Both good catches! I am so unobservant! I hadn’t noticed either of those. Why isn’t Jon wearing armour? I just went back to look at the last scene in 802 and he doesn’t appear to be wearing it in the crypt either. Surely he’d put some on before going into battle?!

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    18. Tryion says they need him in the battle but Dany sends him to the crypts to be “safe”
      the we get ShireenV2.0 “defending” the crypts
      Gilly and Little Sam are in the Crypts..
      and now Sansa is in the crypts

      bad things gonna happen in those crypts people..baad baad things and I am not ready for it…

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    19. Davos, Sansa, Tyrion, Varys, Sam, Gilly all being in the crypt pretty much confirms not everyone is going to be killed. Most of those characters have unfinished arcs or roles, almost all of them too awesome to simply have their story end in “being slaughtered by wights”.

      We’ll see civilians be killed, sure, but not those characters. We’ll see them escape through the tunnels.

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    20. Wimsey: I think it more probable that Beric will die some fairly spectacular death that allows many others to survive.At any rate, didn’t the trailer for Ep. 3 show him and the Hound in “fall back” (a.k.a., “Run Away!”) mode in Winterfell?

      I would agree. During the first episode of the season when they reached the Last Hearth, Beric was the only one not afraid to go into the darkness. I remember even Tormund gave a look like, “Damn, you’re crazy for going in there first”.

      Beric is more than ready to sacrifice himself to save others.

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    21. BeardedOnion,

      Davos won’t be in the crypts. We saw him on the battlements in the trailer. He’s also the one who’s supposed to give the signal to light the trench.

      Sam won’t be in the crypts either. The EW article describes a scene where Sam is out there fighting. Besides, the look he gave Jon when he suggested to be in the crypts pretty much gave it away that Sam won’t be in the crypts. He wasn’t hidden away during the Battle at the Wall either.

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    22. Shouldn’t they have waited till the AOTD were a bit closer before lighting all those fires? What if the AOTD just sat back and waited till the fires went out and then attacked? In that shot with Dany and Jon overlooking the battle, the enemy is nowhere in sight. Also, what if they saw what they’re facing and then go “hey guys, there’s no one guarding the castle round the other side, why don’t we go around?”. I don’t mean to pre-judge and echoing Sansa, I don’t know anything about battles, but these seem like things I would be worried about.

      To me, it looks like that last shot of Jon may be him seeing a wighted friend, family member or beloved pet. Ouch. Not ready.

      If Sansa is in the crypts, and the dead erupt from the Stark graves, I hope we see Sansa fight and stab something with her stabby necklace thing.

      I am not ready to see Jaime and Brienne get swamped by the dead. In the preview she is yelling “stand your ground”. Not ready!

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    23. Varys is absolutely useless at WF. He should have been sent to KL (or left there) on a covert mission to “provide insurance” and “pave the way.” ADwD readers know what I mean. It’s odd that there are no rebel insiders within KL.

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    24. OMG these pics
      First thoughts
      So glad it looks like Varys gets some speaking lines in the crypts.

      Jon and Dany enacting their plan to keep the dragons ready to protect Bran, but from far enough away not to scare off NK–I don’t think Dany will like this plan when she sees her army attacked. She’ll want to fight. Which might mean Jon is the only aerial support Bran has.

      Ser Brienne! Kicker of undead a**! (I forbid her to die)
      A little nervous Jaime looks so thrown and…where’s Pod?!

      Sansa #1 looks genuinely terrified. Either she finally just got a good look at the dead army or she realized she’s about to leave basically her entire family to fight it-including Arya and Bran.

      Sansa#2 A few things. One, this reminds me of Sansa during Blackwater fight. Also, she’s clearly upset. More Wine! And, um, is there a face behind the statue over her shoulder? Is it just a villager creeping, my mind playing tricks, or is it Rickon? Can you blame me for being jumpy? Really don’t feel good about anyone being in the crypts to be honest.

      This is Jon’s I just got surprise stabbed face. Whatever he’s seeing, that face can’t be a good sign for #Teamliving

      I might need Tyrion’s version of “half a cup” before Sunday.

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    25. Miss Stark:
      They really didn’t give us much, did they!

      3 of the 6 can be seen in the preview clip for 803 lol, so yeah only 3 new pics. The AeJon/Dany, Brienne on the frontlines and AeJon are from the preview.

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    26. RG,

      Well damn! I did NOT notice that face behind Sansa at all! Nice catch!

      But seriously, you think Sansa is going to leave to fight? Where did that come from? (referring to Sansa #1)

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    27. “This looks like it jibes with moment from the preview in which Jon tells Dany “The Night King is coming,” to which Dany responds, “The dead are already here.”

      I actually don’t want to take for granted that this voiceover exists in the same time Dany says “The dead already here.” When I initially saw the trailer and heard Dany say that, I took it more that Jon was trying to bring up what he revealed to her and Dany basically being “ain’t nobody got time for that.”

      Also it looks like Jon’s horrified look is from the same scene wear Theon nocks his arrow in the trailer. I wonder if he sees a burning weirwood tree?

      It also looks like Sansa is teary eyed but it could be the fires. I fear for everyone in the crypts. Hoping her voiceover from the trailer is NOT a quote about facing impending death. AAAAnd the fact that Jaime looks terrified, terrifies me.

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    28. The Tyrion/Varys scene and the Sansa looking side-eye are the same scene. Here’s the dialogue:

      Tyrion: So how does one with no cock celebrate the end of his life?
      Sansa: rolls eyes
      Varys: Perhaps I do not have one, but you have not made much use of yours lately, from what I hear
      Tyrion: Good point. Hey, Sansa, we never did consummate that marriage, did we?
      Sansa:
      Varys: I’m right here!
      Re-animated Ned: Dude
      Re-animated Lyanna: Dude
      Re-animated Rickon: Dude
      Tyrion: What?
      Arya: Running through the crypts as something is chasing her.. Sansa, it’s not the worst idea. Try it!

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    29. Raenarys,

      Okay so you see it too? It has to just be a random villager right? Or they’re trying to scare us. Evil showrunners lol
      Also no I meant she’s leaving to go to crypt while Bran and Theon are in Godswood, Arya is on battlements and Jon is flying around on a dragon.

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    30. I can’t for the life of me figure out why Aegon is sitting there in the north’s version of PJs?

      Obviously in the pic w/ Dany he’s got furs/etc on but barely anything in his O face shot.

      Is it possible this is way toward the end of the ep?

      The 20 dollar question is what would cause Jon to be forced out of his armor…? No sword in hand either 😱

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    31. I’m still hoping that the bobbies show up en masse a la Monty Python and peacefully lead the White Walkers and their wights and Cersei and her minions away to pleasant resettlement camps before escorting them to somewhere well north of the Wall. Then the serious business of life, healing, love and everyday fun and responsibility can begin for all the characters we have come to love over the years. I will be watching through my fingers what happens on Sunday night. Every death will sadden me.

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    32. Raenarys:
      RG,

      I definitely see it. The fact that he/she looks like they’re smiling freaks me out even more lol.

      ITS A ZOMBIEFIED LITTLEFINGER!!!!!!! 😵😵😵🤣

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    33. RG,

      Oh, Baby Tom Cruise Jesus, I just saw that. Damn if that doesn’t look like Littlefinger. But it’s a man of fighting age, so what the hell is he doing down there?

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    34. Luka Nieto: It matches it pretty well, actually.

      see, i have problems sorting out which of the groups of bodies J&D look at belong to which party. the perspective and the proportions of the shot may fool me, wouldn’t be the first time a screenshot of a CGI needs being seen as a complete scene in order to make the shot become believable.

      anyway, i see: a bunch of unsorted undead (?) closest to J&D, then in bigger distance a square formation of i don’t know. as well i see a wide rectangular formation even further away on the left. behind them i see fire, obviously from the announced trenches, and behind these fires, i see well sorted blocks of soldiers.

      if i’m just to dumb to remember a battle plan, can i please go down to the crypts where everyone’s safe? else, my guess would be this is the picture of some regrouping after the original plan has gone all dumptruck.

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    35. Rizzo T: ITS A ZOMBIEFIED LITTLEFINGER!!!!!!!😵😵😵🤣

      LF leans forward, raspy voice now raspier from throat injury: “Has anyone ever told you the story of the Mountain and Hound?”
      Sansa: *never stops screaming*

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    36. RG,

      Funnily enough, with a throat injury, he goes from sounding like drunken Bane doing a bad Sean Connery impersonation to sounding like Scarlett O’Hara.

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    37. All I know is that my tissues and alcohol will be close at hand Sunday night, and will likely need therapy Monday morning. We have to be in for quite the shitshow, I fear.

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    38. death by chickenfire,

      None of the people in that image are the undead.

      As seen in the map, and in the photo we’re discussing, you have the Dothraki on the front, probably led by Qhono and Jorah; behind them there are the Unsullied, led by Grey Worm (and between Dothraki and Unsullied there’s a line of trebuchets and catapults; it’s that straight line of lights); then, the left flank, from Winterfell’s POV, is a mix of Northmen and Knights of the Vale, led by Brienne and, presumably, Yohn Royce; and the right flank are Northmen.

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    39. claudia,

      I just see a creepy face I can’t identify. If it is someone dead-the only person who could still potentially be “fleshy” shall we say? lol would be Rickon.
      No one has brought LF up AT ALL, not even Varys which I find odd, but I doubt they’d have buried him in the crypts regardless. That’s family only.
      Still. Super creepy.

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    40. Pumped!! Love the lighting in these shots. Fearing for the crypt people of course… but if Tyrion is down there they’ll be fine I’m sure. I want to see some more fighting action from him.

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    41. Are Jaime and Brienne seeing some undead Giants and wish Tormund were on their flank? What else could cause the “hold your ground” as the dead have no cavalry… or perhaps the light WW cavalry charging with spears, these guys were on their right flank, so opposite Brienne.

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    42. Wimsey: I think it more probable that Beric will die some fairly spectacular death that allows many others to survive.At any rate, didn’t the trailer for Ep. 3 show him and the Hound in “fall back” (a.k.a., “Run Away!”) mode in Winterfell?

      That’s a good point. I do agree with Looper–Beric is going to resurrect someone, which is probably why his Lord has kept him alive. Probably Sandor, Arya, or Gendry, all of whom he’s known and owes a debt. Perhaps the SAndor, Arya, Beric scene gave us a hint–Arya left for better things, so it would be Sandor. But since Arya is the show’s Lady Stoneheart analogue, perhaps it’s her.

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    43. Other possibility is that this was some dipshit production assistant and the final shot we see Sunday will be different

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    44. Everybody seems concerned about them hiding in the crypt because of the possibility of the dead being raised. I don’t know about any of that since they’re in heavy stone tombs and there could be ward spells built into the crypt… My question is that there has never appeared to be any doors or gates at the entrance to the crypt. Unless there’s a 3ER cave type of shield spell is it really all that safe once the walls are breached?

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    45. Stark Raven’ Rad: That’s a good point.I do agree with Looper–Beric is going to resurrect someone, which is probably why his Lord has kept him alive.Probably Sandor, Arya, or Gendry, all of whom he’s known and owes a debt.Perhaps the SAndor, Arya, Beric scene gave us a hint–Arya left for better things, so it would be Sandor.But since Arya is the show’s Lady Stoneheart analogue, perhaps it’s her.

      I agree as well. Beric, as he likes to say, is still here for a reason. And his entire storyline is related to the Starks (Ned gave him his mission, Arya had interactions and questioned his purpose-especially when he took away her Gendry, and Jon is chosen like him) and the Cleganes (He was sent to bring the Mountain to justice, he fought Sandor and lost, proving the Lord of Light wasn’t finished with him, and now they’ve been fighting together for team living)

      I’d be shocked if his death isn’t connected to them in some way. Big save, second life for them or per their request etc.

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    46. Clob,

      You make a good point, especially because the famed Bran the Builder was behind the construction of both the Wall and Winterfell. I wonder to what extent, if any at all, Winterfell is also protected by the same magic that kept the NK &AotD behind the Wall. My concern is also for the people taking refuge in the crypts who could potentially be trapped if the AotD indeed overruns Winterfell and if the NK knows about the tunnels in the Crypts.

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    47. Raenarys,

      I lightened the photo some and to me it looks like it could be Arya.
      Admittedly it’s hard to see, but I think it’s the shape of her face with dark hair pulled back… I’m sure Arya will be up on the battlements so it may not be Arya.. I can’t tell timeline wise when this photo would be taken though. Is it in Sansa’s room maybe? since it looks like curtains? Maybe it’s before they all take their final battle positions.

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    48. Wondered where the 40k Dothraki were in the strategy meeting, I noticed in the J&D photo two massive square formations sandwiching the massive rectangular front formation; I guess those are the screamers , makes sense, gives them the room for a frontal charge on the AotD. Having studied military history, the AotD actually wouldn’t stand a chance, they number let’s say 150k, that’s means each Dothraki only has to kill 4 wights, game over.
      Therefore the NK has to have some devious battle plan, because no commander with 150k foot soldiers would go against 40k horsemen. Look what the Polish calvary did to hundreds of thousands of Ottomans at Vienna.

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    49. Clob:
      Everybody seems concerned about them hiding in the crypt because of the possibility of the dead being raised.I don’t know about any of that since they’re in heavy stone tombs and there could be ward spells built into the crypt… My question is that there has never appeared to be any doors or gates at the entrance to the crypt.Unless there’s a 3ER cave type of shield spell is it really all that safe once the walls are breached?

      I believe there is a door made of iron? and I think there are spells-at least its inferred there is some sort of protection in books. I know there are several levels as well as tunnels leading out of Winterfell-which I assume could also lead IN to Winterfell. Basically lots of potential for jump scares lol, but also escape.

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    50. “Is he seeing the Night King? Realizing the army of the dead attack is a feint and the Night King is actually on his way to King’s Landing (a theory that I’m more convinced by the minute is true)? “
      You mean what Rob did to Jaime! Who’d thunk it. A good plans worth repeating, worked for Jaime at Highgarden.

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    51. Tron79,

      She’s sitting next to stone direwolf so pretty sure it’s the crypt. However it could just be people in skirts and/or cloaks and a blurry kid standing behind them. It’s a weird vantage point and we’re all twitchy. lol

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    52. I think episode 3 is going to be talked about for a long time for “explosions connected by dead bodies”
      We don’t know what the finale will bring.

      But for me (and I suspect many others) “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” will be memorable for developing the characters.

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    53. RG,

      I guess we’ll see… I’m hoping we don’t get too many complaints about it being dark. I already watched the first two episodes in a totally dark room. It makes a huge difference. And it made a huge difference watching the trailer. My wife makes fun of me locking myself up in a dark room, but I said that’s the way it needs to be watched! I’m pretty jittery too. I have an idea of a few characters who I think will make it through from some deductive reasoning from interviews. But I can’t get the Jenny song out of my head either and seeing everyone…..

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    54. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      It will be Arya. Goes with my latest theory that all the men will die (except Bran, Varys and Tyrion) and all the women will survive or be resurrected. That was Jamie passing his command to Brienne in ep 2 (among other dynamics).
      This leaves Sansa and Dany to work out their differences and lead the army, commandeered by Brienne, against Cercei’s forces while Arya does her Ninja Stealth crusade. A Bechdel test exemplar, par excellance.
      Consistent with this, the testosterone-fueled Dothraki berserkers will be wiped out but the Unsullied will remain.
      Alas, Dany does not last long, as Bronn is creeping closer with the crossbow.

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    55. Tyjon,

      I thought the flanks were Stark/North and Vale.

      Btw, the dead can stand their ground easily, so they just need to let the horses trample them and cut from below, and game over for the Dothraki, unless the horses wear dragonglass irons with spikes… Unless the horses are well armored I would avoid using animals against the dead. Summer didn’t last long against wights either, as he had no false dragonglass teeth.

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    56. Cave Painting – Three Heros of the Lord of Light Theory

      So the cave-painting in Dragonstone, created by The CotF, has three “men” standing against the AofD. The person on the left appears to be Jamie – he has his weapon in his left hand and his right hand appears to have something over it below the elbow. The person on the right could be Sandor as the right side of the figure’s face is erased. The person in the middle appears shorter than the other two which could certainly make him Jon.

      As there was confirmation that there were three “men” riding into battle with flaming swords during filming, is it possible that the Azor Ahai prophecy could actually apply to three people, not just one? With Jon’s literal rebirth, it can be confirmed that the LoL has made Jon one of his champions. Since the Hound’s rebirth as Sandor, there have been numerous references that the LoL “has plans for Sandor Clegane.” Jamie had a figurative “rebirth” in the bath with Brienne, after he unburdened himself by telling her about the true story behind his former identity as the Kingslayer. He survived the Field of Fire and somehow made his way to Winterfell to fight for the living, despite the former(?) love-of-his life staying in King’s Landing.

      If there are three champions, will the three all have to forge Lightbringer(s) by plunging their swords into the women they love? Jon loves Dany, but also loves his sisters. Sandor finally admitted that he fought for Arya – and clearly cares for her – though he also likely cares for Sansa. Jamie obviously loves the newly nighted Brienne. Is it possible, throughout the Battle of Winterfell, that all three champions will separately have to kill women that they love, perhaps after they’ve been turned to wights? Unknowingly, all three may end up pulling flaming swords from the chests of their loves…

      That, or the flaming swords may belong to three Red Priests that randomly show up to the battle…

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    57. I feel sorry for all those Dothraki and Unsullied. They came all the way from Essos, only to be killed here in Westeros by the Army of the Dead.

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    58. What is Sansa referring to when she says “The most heroic thing we can do now is look the truth in the face” in the preview? She can’t be talking about finding out about AeJon in 803?

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    59. Jack Bauer 24:
      AeJon says the NK is coming in the preview? I only remember Dany saying the “dead are already here”.

      Yes, he says over the video, like Sansa talking about facing the truth.

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    60. Rizzo T:
      I can’t for the life of me figure out why Aegon is sitting there in the north’s version of PJs?

      The 20 dollar question is what would cause Jon to be forced out of his armor…?No sword in hand either 😱

      Not having armor is weird to me too. But he does have a sword. In the episode 3 preview there are 2 shots that look like the same scene, the screen grab above and a shot of him drawing his sword that looks to me to be right after this picture. It is about 20 seconds in.

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    61. Jack Bauer 24: What is Sansa referring to when she says “The most heroic thing we can do now is look the truth in the face” in the preview?

      To me she sounds quite disheartened. So I suppose “the truth” is that they’re beaten and they need to give up Winterfell, the North and flee.

      The sound of her voice matches the way she looks on that second pic. Poor Sansa.

      I do think she’s sitting infront of two cloaked guards (“You need better guards.”). Could be Arya’s face in the background. In an 80 minutes episode, she’s probably not gonna stay outside the whole time. We see her run through the castle in the trailer, so maybe she’s getting Sansa and the rest of them to go somewhere else.

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    62. If this is a feint by the NK, it would be one hell of a feint. If what we’ve been told is true, this battle took 11 weeks of night shoots to film and it’s said to be the longest battle portrayal in film history.

      That’s a lot of effort to go through to film a feint.

      I am curious why we haven’t seen many shots of the AotD in previews or stills. We did get the one with all the White Walkers on (undead) horseback, but I can’t think of anything other than that.

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    63. Spongebob meme: aT lEaSt ThE cRyPtS aRe saFe

      What I want from this ep:

      -People you would never expect to pick up a weapon do, and fight for their lives and the lives of the people they love (Sansa, Varys, Missandei)

      -That the deaths are fewer than we think, but there needs to be at least one huge death (talking like Jaime-level big). I also hope that the 2 people who seems like sure-thing goners, Grey Worm and Theon, actually live, to defy our expectations. I fully expect Beric, Jorah, Tormund and possibly Jaime to bite it. No Starks dying please, not even weirdo Bran. Oh and now I kinda want to see Gendry kiss Arya before the fighting starts, in front of everyone, and then have them all look at her in shock. Especially Sansa. That would be a great light moment before all the fighting and death.

      I want Melisandre to bring the Fiery Hand or show version with her to fight for the light. And I want Beric to see it before he dies.

      My #1 fantasy wish that I want to happen so bad but there’s a 99% chance it won’t: Nymeria and her pack arrive to eff ish up. In my mind, I believe that showing Nymeria in S7 was closure for Arya and us. BUT, there’s that tiny chance it was to remind everyone that Nymeria exists and show that she now has a fierce pack under her command. I know that the show basically chose dragons over direwolves for budget reasons but I would like to think HBO would pony up the cash for such an epic moment.

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    64. HelloThere:
      Hope this tops The Winds of Winter as the best GOT episode ever.

      I hope it does! it certainly has potential, but that episode was so perfect…it’s a difficult task. Whether it tops it or not, I’m sure Game of Thrones is about to make history during this weekend.

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    65. So long as we are fantasizing…

      Near the end of the battle, when the dragons are wounded and Jorah and Grey Worm are gone and Theon is the last ironborn standing next to Bran and Jon is exhausted and Dany is unconscious…Jaime is dying

      The wolves howl and Ghost howls back and Nymeria and her pack join the fray and the ghostly specters of Beautiful Lady, Loyal Grey Wind, Fierce Shaggydog and Valiant Summer appear in the distance.

      And a beautiful and terrible figure approaches and Sansa and Arya, drawn to the Wolves, come out and see Lady Stoneheart. A raspy voice can be heard:

      “Lady Brienne. Thy oath is fulfilled. Ser Jaime, be at peace. My girls, rule the North well. Jon Snow, my king… my son. Remember…

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    66. Jack Bauer 24: What is Sansa referring to when she says “The most heroic thing we can do now is look the truth in the face” in the preview?

      My bet would be that she’s accepting that Winterfell is lost and that they have reached the point where they have to figure how to save as many people as possible. One thing to keep in mind is that Sansa really has underestimated the threat posed by the White Walkers: she really has assumed that the Northerners really could just hold up in Wintefell and hold them off. However, unless one has actually seen them, then it’s pretty much impossible to appreciate just how deadly they are. Now she knows!

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    67. fdr: Btw, the dead can stand their ground easily, so they just need to let the horses trample them and cut from below, and game over for the Dothraki, unless the horses wear dragonglass irons with spikes…

      It’s not clear that the dead really can hold their ground: they do not seem to have any discipline and just attack. However, that’s also going to be completely novel to the Dothraki and possibly much worse. After all, they are used to infantry that either tries to hold a line OR flees once the line is broken. Infantry that keep pursuing you when cut in half is not something they’ve encountered.

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    68. What happened to the rest of the Dothraki? There were numbered at 30-40k. Looking at the map during the war council scene, they are at the frontline with the 7-8k Unsullied behind them, Vale/Northern Army on the flanks. But from the image of Jon/Dany overlooking Winterfell, the Unsullied and everyone else seem to outnumber them.

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    69. It’s an interesting thing to think about how so few of those at Winterfell have seen a wight and even fewer that have seen how many there are AND seen the NK & WW. The rest have all been pushed here and there and told what they’re up against. They’re all going in on just belief and what their minds can imagine.

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    70. Yeah, why is Jon not wearing armor? Run in with fire and had to strip off? I think the look on his face is the look of terror as Danny mounts her dragon and leaves when she realizes this battle is lost

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    71. Wimsey: One thing to keep in mind is that Sansa really has underestimated the threat posed by the White Walkers: she really has assumed that the Northerners really could just hold up in Wintefell and hold them off. However, unless one has actually seen them, then it’s pretty much impossible to appreciate just how deadly they are. Now she knows!

      I don’t understand why you’re trying to name a person at fault for “underestimating” the threat – as she said, Sansa doesn’t know anything about battles, and everybody said WF had the best potential to hold the WWs off. Everybody is doing their best to fight them, so WF falling is not her failure alone. Your comment seems a bit unfair to Sansa, but it seems to be an habit on this site.

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    72. Clob: The rest have all been pushed here and there and told what they’re up against. They’re all going in on just belief and what their minds can imagine.

      And that has been a big part of the problem: they simply have no idea how dangerous their enemy is. I thought that there would be a bit more tension about this last season: I expected that Sansa et al. would be pushing hard to prepare for the Lannisters’ and keep a mind open to the possible threat from the north, simply because the threat to the south was a known threat. (Of course, Daenerys’ arrival meant that they did not need to worry about the Lannisters for a while.)

      This is also why Sansa was not being “stupid” when she gave the distinct impression that Daenerys’ army was a burden, not an asset. She genuinely thought that this was going to be like the Battle of the Baywater. However, she’s never seen the dead: and it’s kind of hard to accept the stories when you have no context for the reports.

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    73. Why don’t the Dothraki have those fire lamps on chains like Benjen used? They ought to be able to light the Dead up. Seems like they could have used some pitch too to set the woods and the army of the Dead on fire. If I recall, “Craster’s sons,” the White Walkers can walk through fire. Valerian steel and dragonglass kill them but not fire.

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    74. Netheb: Your comment seems a bit unfair to Sansa, but it seems to be an habit on this site.

      It’s neither fair nor unfair; when people say this sort of thing, often one of the people that they are trying to convince is themselves. Sansa thought that they could just withstand a siege in Winterfell. Moreover, it’s her home and she won it back at huge cost: letting it go will be hard.

      At any rate, if this is the context in which we see Sansa utter this line, then chances are pretty good that we’ll be seeing her finally accepting that Winterfell is lost.

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    75. Roz’s Ghost:
      Why don’t the Dothraki have those fire lamps on chains like Benjen used? They ought to be able to light the Dead up. Seems like they could have used some pitch too to set the woods and the army of the Dead on fire. If I recall, “Craster’ssons,”the White Walkers can walk through fire. Valerian steel and dragonglass kill them but not fire.

      Do humans have any idea how to make those? The Children had hand grenades, too: but we’ve no indication that humans know how to make anything like those.

      The other issue is, could the Dothraki learn to use them quickly? No small amount of training would be required: and they don’t have that sort of time.

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    76. Laura: h and now I kinda want to see Gendry kiss Arya before the fighting starts, in front of everyone, and then have them all look at her in shock.

      I want it to be Arya kissing Gendry, bending him over her knee in a swooping motion, with Gendry blushing afterwards.

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    77. I’m literally LMAO at the folks who think there’s a wight behind Sansa.

      Reminds me of S6 when some were convinced that the Waif’s shadow in the doorway of Lady Crane’s home was Syrio and that Cat’s ghost was wandering behind Arya in S7.

      Ok- I was totally on both bandwagons then but I learnt my lesson🙈😂

      Also..I have two really nit picky points:

      1. Jon and Dany were in the crypts when the horn sounded, so the AOTD had arrived.
      Then they went to the battlements and we KNOW the AOTD were there. And yet, they’ve hiked all the way up that hillside and the battle still hasn’t started? They can’t have mounted the dragons to get there otherwise they’d still be on dragonback. What gives?

      2. Soooo.. how did they know the AOTD would attack from that side? I get the geography of WF compared to the approach from the Last Hearth, but all they had to do was circle round a mile or so and take them in the ass from the western side.

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    78. Wimsey,

      The Dothraki and Unsulled should know how to use trebuchets since they used them at Mereen. I hope we see them using their noggins to lob some fireballs.

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    79. Apollo,

      If the horn blew 3 times as is the custom to warn of approaching White Walkers, they got from the crypts to the battlements between horn 2 and horn 3 (approx 3 seconds).

      Hey wait a minute, I just remembered Sam got a horn from the dragonglass cache at the Fist! That HAS to come into play somehow…

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    80. Clob:
      It’s an interesting thing to think about howso few of those at Winterfell have seen a wight and even fewer that have seen how many there are AND seen the NK & WW.The rest have all been pushed here and there and told what they’re up against.They’re all going in on just belief and what their minds can imagine.

      This. I hope we get some reactions of the characters seeing the army and of seeing the NK for the first time. Do you think Arya/Sansa/Jaime will actually see the NK? Or will that be a separate thing with NK/Bran/Dany/AeJon?

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    81. ShameShameShame: I hope we see them using their noggins to lob some fireballs

      Didn’t we see them with barrels in the “preparing for the siege” montage? I had assumed that those were barrels of pitch or some other flammable substance.

      That said, non-flammable materials such as loosely held bags of rocks that would shred and break people would be effective. OK, sure, the broken wights would still fight: but they’d be far less efficient than whole wights.

      My bet is that we’ll see a variety of different defensive weapons if only because special effects teams love showing lots of different forms of explosion, dismemberment, etc.

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    82. ShameShameShame: Hey wait a minute, I just remembered Sam got a horn from the dragonglass cache at the Fist! That HAS to come into play somehow…

      We haven’t seen that horn since, have we? Besides, that was going to the Horn of Hagrid or Whomever that takes down the Wall. Or tames dragons. Or that was used in Penny Lane.

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    83. isildur,

      I don’t think he is. My money is on Jon is seeing a blue eyed Ghost, Hodor, or Rickon. Maybe even Lord Glover.

      My money is also still on the NK isn’t st Winterfell and he will be doing a drive by destruction of the unprotected Citadel, “the memory of mankind”.

      Which also means that the only written record of Rhaegar and Lyanna is destroyed, just to thicken that plot line.

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    84. Nish:
      What happened to the rest of the Dothraki? There were numbered at 30-40k. Looking at the map during the war council scene, they are at the frontline with the 7-8k Unsullied behind them, Vale/Northern Army on the flanks. But from the image of Jon/Dany overlooking Winterfell, the Unsullied and everyone else seem to outnumber them.

      Was wondering the same thing. Looks like they scaled the Dothraki back considerably, unless they were saving them for this episode and we may see a huge Dothraki horde?

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    85. Apollo,

      I think there’s one picture like that every season. They must do it on purpose 🙂

      Also I’m imagining the dragons are behind them and brought them up there so they could watch for NK? I could be wrong. If so, yeah, that would have been an insane slog right before battle.

      Maybe since Tormund and Edd had to go around them they just assumed an army that big and that dead wouldn’t bother being stealthy? Of course, their could be a smaller contingent popping up behind them as a surprise.

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    86. Wimsey: We haven’t seen that horn since, have we?Besides, that was going to the Horn of Hagrid or Whomever that takes down the Wall.Or tames dragons.Or that was used in Penny Lane.

      The piccolo that was promised

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    87. Apollo:
      I’m literally LMAO at the folks who think there’s a wight behind Sansa.

      Reminds me of S6 when some were convinced that the Waif’s shadow in the doorway of Lady Crane’s home was Syrio and that Cat’s ghost was wandering behind Arya in S7.

      Ok- I was totally on both bandwagons then but I learnt my lesson🙈😂

      Also..I have two really nit picky points:

      1. Jon and Dany were in the crypts when the horn sounded, so the AOTD had arrived.
      Then they went to the battlements and we KNOW the AOTD were there. And yet, they’ve hiked all the way up that hillside and the battle still hasn’t started? They can’t have mounted the dragons to get there otherwise they’d still be on dragonback. What gives?

      2. Soooo.. how did they know the AOTD would attack from that side? I get the geography of WF compared to the approach from the Last Hearth, but all they had to do was circle round a mile or so and take them in the ass from the western side.

      The AotD will probably still take a bit to get into WF, so I guess AeJon and Dany have time to scope it out.

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    88. John No:
      Yeah, why is Jon not wearing armor?Run in with fire and had to strip off?I think the look on his face is the look of terror as Danny mounts her dragon and leaves when she realizes this battle is lost

      But AeJon has Rhaegal I would think? So yeah they would be down a dragon, but he still has one. Unless Rhaegal flys away with Dany?

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    89. Jack Bauer 24: This. I hope we get some reactions of the characters seeing the army and of seeing the NK for the first time.

      Same. This will be huge for a lot of characters who have just taken it all on faith. Yes, there really is a massive army of reanimated corpses run by frozen commanders coming directly for you.
      Jon has repeated his warnings about them so often it must have gotten irritating, now they’ll see firsthand why he’s so tense all the time.

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    90. fdr:
      Are Jaime and Brienne seeing some

      undead Giants

      and wish Tormund were on their flank? What else could cause the “hold your ground” as the dead have no cavalry… or perhaps the light WW cavalry charging with spears, these guys were on their right flank, so opposite Brienne.

      Dang, forgot about the wight giants. One stab with dragonglass killed a whitewalker (Sam season 3) and a wight (Jon? season 7 episode 7). If the living only have to get in one good body blow with dragonglass or valyrian steel, then they stand a better chance.

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    91. Final prediction…will we see ice spiders? I’m going with no since they weren’t able to pull off the elephants. Unless they couldn’t do both, so they did the ice spiders instead.

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    92. Tobias Umber: My money is also still on the NK isn’t st Winterfell and he will be doing a drive by destruction of the unprotected Citadel, “the memory of mankind”.

      Do we have any reason to think that the NK even knows about the Citadel? Winterfell is supposed to have been around for a very long time: I think that Martin has said that it’s not really the same city, but that it’s been a site of human habitation continuously for thousands of years. Winterfell was supposed to be around when the NK was last active, which would make it a target. However, the Citadel is something that would have been around for only a few centuries.

      This does not mean that the NK could not somehow learn about all of the stuff that the Andals have done. Still, Bran thinks that he is the target: and I’d bet on Bran being correct at this point.

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    93. Jack Bauer 24: Final prediction…will we see ice spiders? I’m going with no since they weren’t able to pull off the elephants.

      Different issues, I’ll bet. They would probably have wanted to use real elephants, but that can be tricky (and expensive!) to do. However, ice spiders would be pure CGI. Given that we didn’t see any Ice Spiders at Hardhome or when the Wall came down, I’d be inclined to think “no.” And, after all: maybe they were nothing more than a story. The old tales should be 99% embellishment at this point, anyway!

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    94. Wimsey,

      My thoughts are based on no NK sightings for e3 so far, coupled with what Bran said about the NK wanting to destroy memories.

      Look at this clip from the Citadel, go to the 6:00 mark.

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    95. ShameShameShame: If the horn blew 3 times as is the custom to warn of approaching White Walkers, they got from the crypts to the battlements between horn 2 and horn 3 (approx 3 seconds).

      And that suggests that the horn was just blowing continuously! It probably was the last Bolton soldier, who just happened to be the guy that tortured Theon so gleefully.

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    96. Wimsey: Different issues, I’ll bet.They would probably have wanted to use real elephants, but that can be tricky (and expensive!) to do.However, ice spiders would be pure CGI.Given that we didn’t see any Ice Spiders at Hardhome or when the Wall came down, I’d be inclined to think “no.”And, after all: maybe they were nothing more than a story.The old tales should be 99% embellishment at this point, anyway!

      What about Wight Hodor/Summer/Rickon?

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    97. Tobias Umber: My thoughts are based on no NK sightings for e3 so far, coupled with what Bran said about the NK wanting to destroy memories.

      But that borders on negative evidence, doesn’t it? Along the same lines, it seems like half the people here were convinced that Daenerys was going to be off having a snit because the pre-season trailers didn’t show her in the big battle?

      Regarding the Citadel, yes, it makes sense to us that the NK would want to eradicate it. However, we know about it. My point is that we do not have any particular reason to think that the NK knows about the Citadel. He does know about Bran, however.

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    98. Tobias Umber:
      Wimsey,

      My thoughts are based on no NK sightings for e3 so far, coupled with what Bran said about the NK wanting to destroy memories.

      Look at this clip from the Citadel, go to the 6:00 mark.

      I’m of the mind that NK won’t be in 803, not even at Oldtown or KL. I expect to see him in 804 or 805.

      The only problem though is Bran just going to sit outside the Godswood all episode? Something has to happen.

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    99. Jack Bauer 24: What about Wight Hodor/Summer/Rickon?

      Those could happen, or at least Hodor & Summer. Rickon didn’t die where White Walkers were affecting things, so he might not be “wightable.” (Is that a word? I really want that to be a word….)

      That stated, I really doubt that we’ll see any of those things.

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    100. Anyone else think that pic of AeJon looking frightened could be related to what Vladimir said in an interview? That the NK and him share an even more powerful moment then Hardhome?

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    101. Jack Bauer 24: The only problem though is Bran just going to sit outside the Godswood all episode? Something has to happen.

      And that is a bit of a problem for not having the NK in this episode! Again, Bran really thinks that the NK is hell bent of getting him. We know that the NK knows about Bran and where he is. We have no evidence that the NK knows or cares about the Citadel. Do books even mean anything to him?

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    102. Jack Bauer 24:
      Anyone else think that pic of AeJon looking frightened could be related to what Vladimir said in an interview? That the NK and him share an even more powerful moment then Hardhome?

      That could be it. However, there are a gazillion and five possible explanations for this. What Jon probably is here is: 1) exhausted; 2) distraught; 3) seeing something that is adding to his distress.

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    103. That pic of AeJon and Dany is confusing to me. I know it’s from afar, but should the defenses look a lot larger? And shouldn’t we see the AotD in that pic since they are already there?

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    104. Looks like they will have time for some conversations in the crypt before the battle? Or during? Would be odd to have Tyrion and Varys conversing while a massacre is going on.

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    105. I’m starting to think that there will be no escape through the crypts. I feel like wherever the crypts lead to it would still be easy for the AOTD to hunt them down on foot.

      The escape has to be via dragon.

      Jon riding Rhaegal, Dany riding Drogon.

      The only survivors of the Battle for Winterfell will be whomever can fit on the dragons to fly to safety.

      Though, I suppose that they could escape through the crypts and immediately get on the dragons then.

      Either way, I think the only characters that live to fight another day will be the number of them that can fit on the dragons. That would have to be what, 10 people tops?

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    106. Wimsey,

      The Night King doesn’t kill Bran

      He turns him. All the knowledge of the world. Now in the NK service.

      Or it’s just Dany peacing out on Drogon

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    107. Awww… they didn’t post ALL new pictures – some are from the teaser.

      AeJon’s scared face is, I am sure, when he sees NK flying in on Viserion! He is not mounted on his dragon, and he looks like he has already been fighting a long while.
      Sansa crying in the crypt – she will realize this episode that politics no longer matter when the dead are coming – and perhaps there will be no North “afterward” to hold onto anymore.
      The Vale and Northern army behind Jaime and Brienne look scared out of their wits.
      I hope Dany goes to defend her Dothraki and Unsullied on Drogon, instead of just standing looking down.

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    108. Mr Derp:
      I’m starting to think that there will be no escape through the crypts.I feel like wherever the crypts lead it would still be easy for the AOTD to hunt them down on foot.

      The escape has to be via dragon.

      Jon riding Rhaegal, Dany riding Drogon.

      The only survivors of the Battle for Winterfell will be whomever can fit on the dragons to fly to safety.

      Though, I suppose that they could escape through the crypts and immediately get on the dragons then.

      Either way, I think the only characters that live to fight another day will be the number of them that can fit on the dragons.That would have to be what, 10 people tops?

      Exactly. Dany flew herself, the Hound, Beric, Jorah, Tormund and a wight. So they should be able to do at least 6 and 6 so 12 total? I’m thinking AeJon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Brienne, Tyrion and the Hound are safe. Those are the only ones I feel good about.

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    109. Jack Bauer 24,

      I’m saying that Sam, Gilly, baby Sam, Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Sandor, Tyrion, Bran, and Varys are safe until episode 4.

      Right now, I kind of think everyone else dies…Hope not though.

      “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” is going to be the episode that I’ll need to watch for solace after all the deaths we’re going to have to go through in episode 3. The scene where Jaime knights Brienne is going to be even more powerful than it already is if they both end up dying.

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    110. Mr Derp:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      I’m saying that Sam, Gilly, baby Sam, Jon, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Sandor, Tyrion, Bran, and Varys are safe until episode 4.

      Right now, I kind of think everyone else dies…Hope not though.

      Can’t believe I forgot Sam. I think he’s the safest of them all and will survive the series.

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    111. James Rivers,

      I was actually thinking

      Beric would sacrifice his life to resurrect Arya. She’s already kind of filling the Lady Stoneheart role anyway.

      It would give him a redemption arc.

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    112. Well, the battle plan is whack – I wish them well.

      Anyway, many of them will survive.

      Episode 4 will have lots of speaking parts besides those for Cersei, Qyburn, Euron and Bronn. So it is neccessary to have some make it. No need to freak out, there is nothing we can do to help.

      Epis 2 was wonderful at least we will always have that!

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    113. Wimsey,

      Nope, we haven’t, but we know it went to Sam. It’s obv of importance in the books, I wonder if it was just fan service?

      Then again, Sam did give away his sword, and he’ll be on the battlements. Hmm. Maybe the Samwell of Hornhill will blow the Horn of Gondor after all.

      Random thought, perhaps he leaves the horn with Gilly as a way to signal him, since they’ll be separated during the battle? Could be interesting in the crypts. Gilly will be sheltering a Craster’s boy who was promised to the NK after all. Hrm.

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    114. Mango:
      Well, the battle plan is whack– I wish them well.

      Anyway, many of them will survive.

      Episode 4 will have lots of speaking parts besides those for Cersei, Qyburn, Euron and Bronn. So it is neccessary to have some make it. No need to freak out, there is nothing we can do to help.

      Epis 2 was wonderful at least we will always have that!

      Why Bronn? He’s not in KL anymore.

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    115. My episode guess: not ready, not ready.

      And I think the nk is going toward old Town not kings landing.
      Why? They have all the information. And 2. Those guess there didn’t believe Sam. This will make them believe.

      Mr Derp,

      He could be fighting in the crypts and they need to escape the crypts. Maybe the battlefield will be safer than the crypts.

      Jack Bauer 24,

      I think that they are going to die. Or maybe somebody important will die.

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    116. Jack Bauer 24: Why Bronn? He’s not in KL anymore.

      Damn, where is Bronn?.

      I hope he is not heading north – it would be a bad time to visit.

      Bronn is prudent, I do not think he is riding north when he could take off to Bravos with the money.

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    117. I’m convinced that something has to give with the Night King singling our Jon, so I’m making a prediction. Jon will be killed by the NK (If he’s at winter fell) but then he will not be able to resurrect him. This will be due to him being resurrected by fire already. Melisandre or possibly Berics kiss will bring him back.

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    118. To me that shot of Sansa seemingly crying looks like it comes from either:

      1. the crypts during the battle and those are curtains behind her covering the statues of the dead Starks, perhaps with one of them peeking through, rather than a creepy actual person or wight lurking in the background, or

      2. the location to where they flee via dragon back after Winterfell has fallen, and again, those are curtains in the background.

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    119. Dolorous Methuselah,

      Still I don’t believe the nk will be defeated by means of a battle. I think that will be too easy storywise.

      And longest yes. But if it will be the best we don’t know. We don’t know what episode 5 holds. Maybe that one will top this one.

      Clob,

      But now reality kicks in. And the fantasies that their minds make up that they can easily defeat them will make place for reality. The ww and wights are more frightening than they ever could think of.

      Wimsey,

      As many think. The nk is a greenseer himself. So that means he know how westeros looks now. And he probably know everything bran knows because of the mark.

      I don’t think the nk will be defeated in episode 3.why? Because of the special title sequence we got. With the blue tiles. I think they will be here the whole season. Why else put something like that in for only 3 episodes.

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    120. Kevin1989: Dragon through the crypts. I have strange dejavu about the ending of chamber of secrets ‘)

      Are you saying that Ginny Weasley is the key to defeating the Night King?, lol

      The idea of a dragon in the crypt reminds me of the clip in the trailer of drogon roasting something/someone in the dark.

        Quote  Reply

    121. Mr Derp,

      I’m now picturing them all running out of the hidden exit from the crypt with hundreds of wight chasing, just like “The Door.” This time though there’s nobody sacrificing themself to hold a door… When everyone has cleared the exit Daenerys is there with Drogon and he sticks his head in and shoots flames down the tunnel roasting all the wight. 😎

      I’m imagining just darkness before you see Drogon flare up. A scene that may be reminiscent of the ending of Rogue One when Vader is in the dark and turns on his lightsaber…

        Quote  Reply

    122. Che,

      Those fires are more than likely so they can see what they are fighting as opposed to a wight deterrent. It is the middle of the night, and without electricity fire is about the only option to light up the battlefield. The dragons and trench fire that they talked about last episode will likely be the wight deterrents.

        Quote  Reply

    123. Clob:
      Mr Derp,

      I’m now picturing them all running out of the hidden exit from the crypt with hundreds of wight chasing, just like “The Door.”This time though there’s nobody sacrificing themself to hold a door…When everyone has cleared the exit Daenerys is there with Drogon and he sticks his head in and shoots flames down the tunnel roasting all the wight. 😎

      You guys are on to something here…

        Quote  Reply

    124. Without reading any of the prior comments, my (tinfoil) thoughts are….

      • (About caption under photo of Arya and Sansa) “It looks as though this is the moment when Sansa, about to head down to the safety of the crypts, hears Arya say that she’s staying there to fight. Sansa looks worried but resigned — she knows she can’t convince Arya otherwise.”

      “Safety of the crypts” is an oxymoron. For the Army of the Dead, the folks in the crypts are going to be like shooting fish in a barrel. The “secret passageways” out (per Maester Luwin to Theon) are also a passageway in. (I already freaked out about this in prior comments.)

      • Of course the NK is making a beeline to KL with the bulk of his army. He merely sent a splinter force to WF to keep Team Targaryen occupied. NK’s no dummy.
      WF’s got armed and ready warriors with custom-made dragonglass weapons and Valyrian Steel swords, two dragons, and a super ninja assassin warrior princess with a high tech, state of the art anti-WW weapon.
      KL’s got 1,000,000 fresh recruits for the AotD jammed into a small area: clueless, unprepared residents with no dragonglass, no Valyrian Steel, no forewarning, and a smug queen who thought she could lounge around while the North did all the fighting and dying. Maybe she’s got some new gizmos from Dr. Qyburn and stockpiles of wildfire from the Alchemists Guild’s pyromancers. But like Bronn warned before Blackwater, frantic soldiers flinging pots of wildfire at the enemy from the city walls trying to defend the city are more likely to accidentally burn it down. Cackling Euron and the Golden Company? Even if they’re around, they’re no match for NK.
      And worst of all for Cersei: No Elephants!

      🐘❌🐘❌🐘❌

        Quote  Reply

    125. I am hoping Dany’s fireproof nature comes into play one more time before the show’s end. Maybe in that last pic Jon is seeing her being burnt before realizing she’s unharmed? Of course, I could see how that might feel a bit overdone, so I understand if it doesn’t happen again. Also, I am really concerned she’s not immune to Wall-destroying blue fire.

      Of course, I have suspicion that if the Northern’s realize “unburnt” is a literal title, it might just make them more suspicious of Daenerys and perhaps make them draw parallels between her and the Red Woman.

        Quote  Reply

    126. RG,

      Hahaha – Yeah, it certainly looks like Littlefinger lurking behind the curtains. It would be a hoot if he gets ‘Wightified’ and jumps out at Sansa down the in crypts 😀

        Quote  Reply

    127. Looper:
      James Rivers,

      I’ve been under the impression for a while that they didn’t do LS and kept Beric alive and in the show for so long so that he can give “the kiss of life” to someone else. Only yesterday did my friend mention that it might be the Hound. I definitely think that’s the most likely option with the relationship they’ve formed.

      Plus, I think D&D would LOVE to make people think the Hound got killed only to bring him back.

      Well, Sandor does have to be born again amidst salt and smoke, and pull a flaming sword from a fire.

      #SandorAhai

        Quote  Reply

    128. Im Just hoping the 82 minutes its almost ALL used for the battle and the characters on Battlefield, i Will be Very pissed If they start having to much time in the cripts with Just talk, Dany and Jon on the Cliff talking too much, Sansa and Arya talking too much on the castle, bran and theon talking. I Hope ALL the talking take Just 10-18 minutes. More than this is absurd.

      We end the last Episode with the WW at winterffel. Time for war.

      We already had talk last Episode and It was AMAZING, now Its not time to spend much time on that.

        Quote  Reply

    129. Wimsey:
      However, the Citadel is something that would have been around for only a few centuries.

      The Citadel has been around since the Age of Heroes, several thousand years ago.

      However, I don’t see any particular reason for the Night King to target the Citadel. His interest in Bran is because of his mystical powers; the Citadel is just a lot of texts and such that can be dealt with in time.

      Mr Derp,

      That’s a scale of defeat at which point the heroes effectively cease to matter.

        Quote  Reply

    130. Lol:
      Im Just hoping the 82 minutes its almost ALL used for the battle and the characters on Battlefield, i Will be Very pissed If they start having to much time in the cripts with Just talk, Dany and Jon on the Cliff talking too much, Sansa and Arya talking too much on the castle, bran and theon talking. I Hope ALL the talking take Just 10-18 minutes. More than this is absurd.

      We end the last Episode with the WW at winterffel. Time for war.

      We already had talk last Episode and It was AMAZING, now Its not time to spend much time on that.

      It’s supposed to be the longest continuous battle of all time. We shall see. There will be talking and conversation though.

        Quote  Reply

    131. Black Raven,

      I initially thought Rickon, but now it might just be a random child behind someone’s skirt. LF was a master creeper though. And if you asked me, “What is the worst and craziest thing that could happen to Sansa in the crypts?” that might top family skeletons.

        Quote  Reply

    132. Clob,

      Why do I think that the Winter Waterfall location might matter? If there are tunnels that lead out of Winterfell, there must be tunnels that lead in to Winterfell.

      In the books, Gorne/Gendel tunnels from WH crypts seem to lead to the cave of the 3ED as well as Ygritte’s cave. Dany kind of tied Ygritte’s cave to the Waterfall valley.

        Quote  Reply

    133. Ten Bears,

      What a journey… and this rings true. An irony might be that Cersei’s wildfire incinerates the NK as well as all her subjects. We do know the throne room needs to end up in ashes (and so does Cersei’s mouth).

      My only issue with an obliteration of KL is that there is unfinished business with Gregor and Sandor, but hey, what is dead may never die, eh? Especially when Cleganebowl is still attracting the high rollers.

      And Cersei still has plans for Dany… Qyburn, Unella and Ellaria may be additional loose ends.

        Quote  Reply

    134. RG,

      I dunno… I think the visual of a wighted Littlefinger attacking Varys would be priceless. I can’t think of a more dramatic way for Varys to die in Westeros. Despite his lack of lines in the script in I don’t know how many episodes, he deserves a memorable death.

        Quote  Reply

    135. Jon and Dany are likely some place close enough to the godswood that they can get their quickly, as per the war room discussion in epi 2. I suspect he and Dany are arguing about the best use of the dragons — he wanting to stay close to Bran in the godswood, and she wanting to protect the troops in the field.

        Quote  Reply

    136. I think many are underestimating the power of Dothraki…
      The show did not give them enough space..
      But I just want to go back to season 1 scene with Theon practising and Luwyn and Bran talking about Dothraki learn about archery when they are young..

      Their skills at archery is very well known and think how they will fare when they turn up against others with dragon glass arrows and fire arrows..

      Nobody needs to tell about Unsullied and their skills in the field..

      I just hope when the war is finished and humanity is saved they and the one who united and lead them gets the credit they deserve even if they didn’t survive the war..

        Quote  Reply

    137. Bet Sansa’s thankful for Dany’s aid now. How utterly screwed they’d all be without her. (Though again, I’m mega-hyped for Mel’s return, which I think will also be crucial to any chance the living stand at ultimate victory; the fact that we haven’t seen a bit of her from the actual show yet suggests to me that they’re trying to make people forget about her so that the surprise will be that much more mind-blowing.) But I also feel badly for all the Unsullied and Dothraki who followed Dany to Westeros to help her claim her throne, and who’ve instead gotten stuck fighting (possibly becoming) walkers. ><

      -People you would never expect to pick up a weapon do, and fight for their lives and the lives of the people they love (Sansa, Varys, Missandei)

      Yes! Me too. The most exciting photo for me is actually the Tyrion & Varys, because I adore Varys and he hasn’t received nearly enough attention so far. Not worried though…still waiting to find out what he heard spoken in the flames and what his destiny will be. I’m assuming he’s gonna die (in Westeros…hopefully of old age, but probably not. ><) As for it being odd for them to have a chat while the massacre is going on…I could see them have a somber discussion of some kind because what else is there to do, but anyhow, thinking back to that long EW feature story, we already know that there *will* somehow be stand-still/non-action/talky sequences in the midst of this battle ep.

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    138. Dragonbringer,

      I agree, but the largest army by far now at Winterfell doesn’t have a single named representative, either at the strategy table or on imdb. I’m not sure if D&D is being compassionate enough with their imminent demise.

        Quote  Reply

    139. ShameShameShame,

      I agree, that would also be a hoot. Varys would shit himself 🙂

      Strange that so far in S8 no one has mentioned Littlefinger? i.e. The new arrivals who were not present at his trial or that Arya had topped him 😛

        Quote  Reply

    140. I believe most of us know what to expect from episodes 1 through 3. After episode 3 I believe so much can happen that we do not know about

      Something big will happen with Bran, what could it be?

      What is Melisandre’s role?
      I believe Mel will either sacrifice and burn herself or try to burn someone else who has kings blood.

      Something big with Dany, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion, etc.
      All these characters need big endings, what is it though?
      Sophie Turner mentioned an important scroll.

      I just think the story could go to so many directions after episode three. We have three 80 minute episodes and a lot has to happen and big things need to be revealed. Not much is revealed in trailers after episode three.

        Quote  Reply

    141. Coming into the season one of the things I wanted was for Jon to see how well Arya can fight now. I also expected him to be trying to shelter her, protect her from the fighting prior to witnessing her abilities. It appears that neither of those things will happen before the fighting starts. I really am a bit surprised there wasn’t a short scene where he suggested she stay in the crypts like Gendry did.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Clob:
      Everybody seems concerned about them hiding in the crypt because of the possibility of the dead being raised.I don’t know about any of that since they’re in heavy stone tombs and there could be ward spells built into the crypt… My question is that there has never appeared to be any doors or gates at the entrance to the crypt.Unless there’s a 3ER cave type of shield spell is it really all that safe once the walls are breached?

      • The “dead” entombed in the crypts are nothing but dust and bone fragments. Even Ned was just a box of bones when LF presented it to Cat in S2 seconds before hitting on her. (What a jackass.)

      • At the risk of being redundant (and wrong), even if there’s no gate or door to the entrance to the crypts, there are “secret passageways” out – which means there are passageways in.
      Plus, as demonstrated in “The Door”, wights can scurry upside down on ceilings and climb wherever they want in search of crevices and openings. Those rascals are like iguanas in Florida. They’ll find a way inside somehow and crawl all over the walls.
      Or maybe a WW will do the crack in the ice trick and open a seam somewhere.
      The dead are already here” = They didn’t wait until the party formally started to crash it.

        Quote  Reply

    143. ShameShameShame:
      Dragonbringer,

      I agree, but the largest army by far now at Winterfell doesn’t have a single named representative, either at the strategy table or on imdb.I’m not sure if D&D is being compassionate enough with their imminent demise.

      Qhono is the leader. He was in the Great Hall scene in the premeire next to Grey Worm and he’s the one that told Dany the dragons were barely eating. He was also at the war council in “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”.

        Quote  Reply

    144. Black Raven:
      ShameShameShame,

      I agree, that would also be a hoot. Varys would shit himself🙂

      Strange that so far in S8 no one has mentioned Littlefinger?i.e. The new arrivals who were not present at his trial or that Arya had topped him 😛

      Was wondering the same thing. Maybe Tyrion/Varys will mention him in their crypt scene?

        Quote  Reply

    145. ShameShameShame,

      Yes that was disappointing to me when you know that in the books dany still have her bloodriders and handmaidens alive and well..They could have had the khal actor from season 6 as a leader of Dothraki but they killed him..
      But if you ask me In the show I will take dany as their representative and leader and I hope they get their place in the history and gets remembered..But everything I have seen so far suggests me otherwise..no one has realised the amount of support they are getting and what that means..

        Quote  Reply

    146. Tar,

      “…while Arya does her Ninja Stealth crusade.”
      ——-
      Tentative amendment: “…. while Arya does her Ninja Seductress Stealth Crusade.”

        Quote  Reply

    147. Dragonbringer,

      I think the Dothraki deserved a more powerful place during endgame, for sure. One single Haka by a bloodrider would have endorsed Dany very effectively to, say, Lady Lyanna Mormont. Instead I fear they and their horses will have the most severe losses, after abandoning their entire culture to follow her.

        Quote  Reply

    148. Jack Bauer 24:
      Final prediction…will we see ice spiders? I’m going with no since they weren’t able to pull off the elephants. Unless they couldn’t do both, so they did the ice spiders instead.

      If I see damn ice spiders and no direwolves *shouts angrily at cloud*

        Quote  Reply

    149. Wimsey,

      That’s why I admired Arya for taking the time to debrief Gendry on the details of the enemy.
      Except for the Wildlings who survived Hardhome; the handful of Wight Hunters; Sam; and the spectators at the Dragon Pit show and tell*, nobody has seen the zombies. Certainly none of the Northern Lords have. In S6e10, when Lord Cerwyn said a cold winter was forecast and suggested they go home and wait out the storm, Jon’s comeback that the enemy “won’t wait out the storm; he brings the storm” didn’t quite convey the horror of the freak show that was on its way.

      * R.I.P. Captured Wight. You deserved better.

        Quote  Reply

    150. Wimsey: Do humans have any idea how to make those?The Children had hand grenades, too: but we’ve no indication that humans know how to make anything like those.

      The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch? They must’ve misplaced the priest’s instruction book.

        Quote  Reply

    151. Ten Bears: The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch? They must’ve misplaced the priest’s instruction book.

      Just one more thing one would think Branmotron could instruct them how to make, thermal detenators. He really has been pretty much useless to them. Is he actually going to DO anything ‘cool’ in the godswood or just continue to play statue and let everyone die trying to protect him?

        Quote  Reply

    152. Maybe the NK will come upon Bran sitting in the Godswood only to find that he removes his face and……it’s actually Arya with her dragonglass spear and her Valyrian dagger. Of course it occurs to me that she could only get Bran’s face if he’s dead, so never mind. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    153. Two things that will p*ss me off if they happen.

      1 – For Jaime to die in Brienne’s arms. Please don’t do that.
      2 – Even worse I think, for Jaime to survive the battle only to be shot by Bronn with that bloody crossbow.

        Quote  Reply

    154. Sansa looks like she’s been crying. Shit. Jon looks like he’s seen something beyond awful. Shit.

      That’s a beautiful shot of Jon and Dany.

      Augh.

        Quote  Reply

    155. Jack Bauer 24: I’m of the mind that NK won’t be in 803, not even at Oldtown or KL. I expect to see him in 804 or 805.
      ***

      I need to be sure my eyes aren’t filling in details that aren’t there. I was watching the preview snippets, and had to remind myself that watching is not seeing. Because among other things, I could swear

      I saw the Night King drinking a piña colada at Trader Vic’s. And his hair was perfect.
      You better stay away from him.
      He’ll rip your lungs out, Jim.
      I’d like to meet his tailor.

      (So sorry. Each time I read speculation about NK’s whereabouts, I can’t help imagining he’s engaging in body parts artistry somewhere and my brain defaults to “Werewolves of London” again. Thanks for that, Warren Zevon.)

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    156. Wimsey: “(Is that [“wightable” ] a word? I really want that to be a word….)

      It is now.

      The way I see it, “magic” is just the science of a (good) fantasy world. It’s got to be defined by a set of principles and limitations, and stick to them.

      Hmmm. So what are the basic requirements for wightability? Do you have to be killed by a WW or wight, or will any corpse do?
      From Uncle Benjen’s dissertation, I think there may a waiting period between physical death and wightification; or maybe there just had to be a WW in the vicinity who’s not busy helping other customers.

      Geez, I don’t know. We’ve seen some wights in advanced states of decomposition, including skeletons in S4e10, and the “dumb c*nt” Sandor nailed with a fastball to the law in S7e6. Captured Wight didn’t look too bad – at least before Sandor started abusing him. But I have no idea what happened to those wight kids who scared Karsi (and scared me). One looked like wild animals ate his upper torso.

      (Why am I even thinking about this ghastly sh*t at 1:40 am?) 🧟‍♂️

        Quote  Reply

    157. Wimsey,

      I think the Bran Bait Plan is Wight Hunt-level silly. Nothing about its premise or its proposed execution makes any sense.

      Diatribe to follow shortly… or tomorrow.

        Quote  Reply

    158. Jack Bauer 24,

      Maybe they are somewhere else, waiting on the bench for a suprise attack. All the talk of the greatest army in the world is mainly cos of the Dothraki horde, so scaling them would be illogical.

        Quote  Reply

    159. Mr Derp:
      I’m starting to think that there will be no escape through the crypts. I feel like wherever the crypts lead to it would still be easy for the AOTD to hunt them down on foot.

      ***
      The only survivors of the Battle for Winterfell will be whomever can fit on the dragons to fly to safety.

      ***
      Either way, I think the only characters that live to fight another day will be the number of them that can fit on the dragons.That would have to be what, 10 people tops?

      Are you suggesting that out of all the Unsullied, Dothrakis, Northern armies, and noncombatant civilians, that only 10 people will survive?

      Well, that would be pretty grim (not to mention a reason for NK to pop the champagne corks to celebrate the welcoming of tens of thousands of new AotD inductees.)

      May I propose a tinfoil alternative for all the Theon fans out there?

      During Yara’s shipboard conversation with Theon when she granted his request to go to WF to help defend it, she did say that she was going to secure the Iron Islands so that the Stark armies could take refuge there if necessary. (She reiterated that so far, it seems WWs can’t swim or cross oceans.)

      If Theon survives the battle, he could conceivably ferry shiploads of WF survivors to safely on the Iron Islands. More than fighting a couple of zombies in a losing battle, rescuing hundreds or thousands of WF and Winter Town escapees who’d otherwise be hunted down, would go a long way towards making amends for his early season transgressions.

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    160. Worfwworfington:
      Wimsey,

      The Night King doesn’t kill Bran
      He turns him. All the knowledge of the world. Now in the NK service.

      I don’t know. If he tries to convert Bran and download the data in his brain, NK could just as easily wind up Hodorized. NK’s own brain could get infected by all kinds of malware, adware, and viruses; every time he tries to devise a new attack scheme, he’d get redirected to porn images.

      Irrelevant, trivial question: If NK turned Bran, could he walk again?

        Quote  Reply

    161. Mr Derp,

      Well more the scene where they fly out of the chamber. “this looks like magic” or what does he say.
      shelle,

      She is happy for the help. But she wants the north to go independent. Ruled by a northerner.

      Ten Bears,

      Then it’s confirmed. Euron will kill the nk. Nobody else will take his queen.

        Quote  Reply

    162. I’m with those thinking the Dothraki must be hiding somewhere else to come into play later in the battle. The gathering in front of the unsullied in that picture from the high Jon and Dany vantage point looks smaller than the unsullied (8000 men) and the Dothraki ought to take up more space per person because they are on horseback. The Dothraki gathering also looks much smaller than the Vale army and the northern forces. I thought Dany had tens of thousands of Dothraki? Where are they all? Did more die in the field of fire V2 than were realised? Looking at the battle map, the Dothraki are the triangular pieces, so they are all in front of the Unsullied. They are much smaller in number than the Vale army – there is no way the Vale had tens of thousands of riders. I don’t think the creators of this show would drop the ball on this, so I’m going to assume they are elsewhere.

        Quote  Reply

    163. Che: I’m with those thinking the Dothraki must be hiding somewhere else to come into play later in the battle. The gathering in front of the unsullied in that picture from the high Jon and Dany vantage point looks smaller than the unsullied (8000 men) and the Dothraki ought to take up more space per person because they are on horseback.

      They are Dothraki. You can see them in the preview.

      We don’t know whether other Dothraki are hiding out of view or not, but from what we see there, the ones in front at definitely Dothraki.

      One would think there would be more Dothraki, you’re right (if there are about 6000-to-8000 Unsullied, those in front of them must be 4000 bloodriders at most.) However, though I’m pretty sure Daenerys got all 100,000 Dothraki back in Vaes Dothrak, maybe A LOT of them stayed in Meereen; we’ve never seen that many Dothraki ever since, not even in “Spoils of War”.

      Honestly, it’s more realistic: even with Daenerys’ gigantic mega-fleet that sailed from Meereen at the end of “The Winds of Winter” (with ships from Yara Greyjoy, the Slavers, the Tyrells, and the Martells), I can’t imagine they would have been able to house all 100,000 Dothraki, AND their horses.

      Che: there is no way the Vale had tens of thousands of riders.

      Not tens of thousands, but Royce commands about two shousand knights, which is the figure given by Sansa in “Eastwatch”. And remember, the right flank isn’t just Valemen, but Northmen as well, and wildlings, presumably.

        Quote  Reply

    164. ShameShameShame,

      My preferrrd (tinfoil) KL confrontation would be a two- or three-way quandary that draws on analogous situations previously faced by three characters:

      After the diversionary attack on WF kept Team Targaryen occupied, NK and the bulk of the AotD have reached KL. If they breach the city wall, KL’s 1,000,000 residents become 1,000,000 new wights. That would mean, in the words of Bill Paxton in Aliens, “Game over man!”

      Team Targaryen’s survivors of the assault on WF, having caught up to NK’s main forces during their trek south, see that the AotD is about to break through and pour into the city.

      • Jon Snow, in a virtual replay of his controversial proposal and ultimate decision to rescue the Free Folk at Hardhome (to prevent their addition to the AotD), urges his forces to try to help save the KL residents – notwithstanding Cersei’s duplicity in her false promise to send the Lannister army north.

      • Dany’s solution? “Burn them all!” – wights and humans alike. It’d be the only way to be safe.

      • Cersei is about to implement the wildfire pots-flinging plan she’d devised in S2, before Tyrion has commandeered her stockpile for his ghost ship explosion plan.

      What would they do?

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    165. Varys – “Power is a curious thing, who lives, who dies. Power resides where men believe it resides, it’s a trick, a shadow on the wall”.

      “Holy water cannot help you now, A thousand armies couldn’t keep me out, I don’t want your money, I don’t want your crown. See, I’ve come to burn your kingdom down”

      “Seven Devils all around you, Seven Devils in my house, see they were there when I woke up this morning… I’ll be dead before the day is done”

      “You can Keep me Out, ‘Til I tear the walls, To devastate you heart, and to take your soul. For what has been done, Cannot be undone, In the eagles eye, In the evensong”

      “Before the day is done”

      Arya – “Anyone can be killed”.

      Sorry it’s been stuck in my head and seems to fit what I am feeling about Sunday. CHILLS!!!!!!!

        Quote  Reply

    166. shelle,

      Meanwhile, where the f*ck are Red Temple High Priestess Kinvara and her disciples? She talked a big game about the Lord of Light and “the Great War to Come”, but all they seem to be doing is modeling red gowns with plunging necklines in fashion shows in Volantis. The only Lord of Light representatives who bothered to help are Thoros, Beric, Sandor, and a couple of BwoB redshirts.

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    167. Jack Bauer 24:
      Please whatever you are doing. Stop. Watch this now 😭 https://youtu.be/IdH1Hjy0ggg

      That’s one wonderful video thank you for sharing! It got me all emotional, and ep 3 is not even here yet! 😭😭

      There are so many posts and I don’t know if you guys have already discussed these matters but I have been thinking a few things with a bit of tinfoiling! So my stray thoughts:

      First, the fact that their plan is heavily based on the certainty that what NK wants the most is Bran. Even if he is NK main target, it doesn’t mean that NK would go straight for him, putting his existence in danger. It would be easier strategically (based on wightification) to let his army fight the living with whatever loss, get as many humans killed and wight-ed as possible which would then give him even more advantage. Surround Bran or whatever it is he wants, with wights and then it would be an easy task to kill him, without him risking anything, if he’s risking anything in the first place. We don’t know how he can be killed, Bran doesn’t know much about that.
      I think the living are underestimating NK’s capability of rational thought and strategic planning and that’s where their plan is bound to fail, if failed.

      That said, I don’t know if there could be any other logical plan for the living. How do you win a battle against the undead?You just use the little you know about the enemy: they are killed with dragonglass, valyrian steel and fire; when you kill one WW you take out all the wights he made too. Ok, ‘go for the officers’! And theoretically, killing NK might kill all undead army while NK wants Bran. That’s all they know, and with that only, their perspective plan is logical. Even if I’m not sure it’ll work, I think it’s the only plan they could have resulted to.

      The other matter that got me thinking was Dany’s phrase – the dead are already here. It’s out of context, so there’s lots of room for speculation, but the way she said it, was almost angry, shouting it at Jon. I wonder what happens there.🤔

      The crypts are definitely not safe – I’m sure we all agree – but I don’t root for zombie Stark ancestors. Most likely the wights find a way in and people in the crypts will need to find a way out! I hope there’s a way out!!!

      I generally think that fighting against the army of the dead, was a lost cause to begin with – it’s a battle you can’t win – at least not with the little knowledge about him they have at the moment. They can only, perhaps, slow them down long enough to save as many people as they can, perhaps sending them to a safe island or something like that, if possible.

      Lastly, I wonder if Melissandre comes to the rescue; maybe she has some insight about what can kill or even just stop the NK. It is strange that the only ones representing the Red God are Beric and the Hound, especially since as we’ve seen, there are many Red God priests that preach about the evil NK represents, and at least one of them (Melissandre) knew the undead were coming and had to be defeated with their promised Prince or Princess.I wonder what their role is in the story.

      I don’t know whether they want to get rid of the NK on ep 3 and then get back to the usual political drama, but I would love to expect otherwise. The thought that the NK surprises them all and goes to KL instead would make an excellent plot twist! He’d destroy KL, Cercei and Co who are thinking that they are safe. It would make a great strategic move on behalf of the NK!

      On the political side of things, it was extremely strange to me that Varys wasn’t anywhere to be seen after Jamies’s trial. No interactions with anyone. He wasn’t even beside the fire group, with all the others as I expected. I wonder if he was gathering info about something and he was lurking in the crypts when Jon drops the Aegon bomb to Dany. And, if so, I wonder how he’ll use that information.

      I can’t wait to see what happens! WinterHell is coming!

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    168. Ten Bears:
      shelle,

      Meanwhile, where the f*ck are Red Temple High Priestess Kinvara and her disciples? She talked a big game about the Lord of Light and “the Great War to Come”, but all they seem to be doing is modeling red gowns with plunging necklines in fashion shows in Volantis. The only Lord of Light representatives who bothered to help are Thoros, Beric, Sandor, and a couple of BwoB redshirts.

      When Melisandre returns, I imagine she’ll return with help from the High Priestess of Volantis (with warriors, even if Kinvara doesn’t show up herself.)

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    169. Luka Nieto,

      Oh I know those are Dothraki, I just feel their section of the army looks the smallest, when from what we know, they ought to be the largest. I tried to look up how many Dothraki Dany ought to have and someone guessed around 16000 Dothraki and horses could have taken up space on her 1000 ships after her 8000 unsullied were taken into account. Either way, it should be the largest part of the army, but they look the smallest, so something doesn’t feel right.

      And after the BOTB, I’m not sure there are many Wildlings left – the group encircled by Ramsay’s forces was tiny and it was made up of Wildlings and Northmen who fought for Jon (and at least one Bear Islander who made it into the castle to donate his shield to Jon). By the battle plans, they have the sigils painted on the rocks and the Vale army is the one closest Jon and Dany and the Northmen on the other side. I imagine they wouldn’t mix up armies as they have their own command structures. So from the looks of it the Vale army is much larger than the Dothraki, which doesn’t feel right.

      We’ll see what happens. Perhaps a lot of the Dothraki died on the March north or in the battle with the Lannisters.

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    170. Che,

      Something iffy’s going on, you’re right. If many Dothraki died on the way north, or during Spoils of War (didn’t look like it), someone should’ve mentioned it.

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    171. Clob:
      Coming into the season one of the things I wanted was for Jon to see how well Arya can fight now…,.

      • You and I both. (I remember exchanging fanfic scenarios about Jon meeting up with s whirling dervish ninja warrior on the road from White Harbor, and not realizing it was Arya at first.)

      • I got the impression from their reunion by the heart tree that Arya wanted to downplay her transformation into a super ninja. When Jon asked her if she’d ever used Needle on anyone, I think she merely said “once or twice”… and then let him show off Longclaw and tell him a sword like that would be too heavy for her to use.

      Nevertheless, I have no doubt he’s going to see her in actual combat and he’ll be totally gobsmacked.

      • ⚠️Tinfoil Addendum: I’m intrigued by Arya’s custom-designed weapon. It’s supposed to be a big deal. Could it simply be a long DG-tipped spear detachable into two separate shorter implements? I suppose so. From the rough sketch I thought it might be a spring-loaded DG blade that could be hidden in her sleeve. But when Gendry finished making it, it did look like a spear she could also use for twirling and stick-fighting (as in her sparring with the Waif).

      • New, sleep-deprived speculation: After watching her pinpoint DG blade tossing demonstration (3 long blades launched in rapid succession hitting same exact place on the target), and watching her twirling the custom designed weapon when Gendry finished making it, I wondered:
      Here’s what appears to be a multi-use weapon with interchangeable parts, one configuration of which could be a long range throwing spear, i.e., a javelin.
      Where did I see something like that? Oh right, the ice javelin that NK used to take down Visrrion..
      What then could take down an undead Viserion? A dragonglass-tipped javelin. Who by? Someone with pinpoint throwing accuracy.
      👸🏻 ASNAWP Q.E.D.

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    172. Laura,

      “Where are my dragons!” – Dany
      “Where are my elephants!” – Cersei
      “Where are my ice spiders!” – Jack B.
      “Where are my direwolves!” – Laura
      “Where are my chickens!” – Sandor
      “Where are my damn moron sons!” – Walder
      “Where are my balls!” – Lord Glover
      “Where are my limbs!” – Wight Lord Glover

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    173. Luka Nieto: When Melisandre returns, I imagine she’ll return with help from the High Priestess of Volantis (with warriors, even if Kinvara doesn’t show up herself.)

      Agreed! (Although I do hope Kinvara’s with them!)

      Kevin1989:
      shelle,

      She is happy for the help. But she wants the north to go independent. Ruled by a northerner.

      Yeah, I know. She’s about to be -really- thankful. Should they survive and the politics still matter…maybe eventually one side will be more willing to change its mind. (And I get Dany; “Queen of the Six Kingdoms” doesn’t have quite the same ring. xD)

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    174. Why is everyone expecting Melisandre here? She’s not going to return to Winterfell. Davos threatened to kill her if she would return. The Night King won’t be killed in episode 3 when there are 6 episodes. The Night King will be killed in episode 5 or 6 somewhere around Kingslanding, and that’s where Melisandre will be. Btw, this is not a spoiler, just logical guessing.

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    175. Tyjon:
      Wondered where the 40k Dothraki were in the strategy meeting, I noticed in the J&D photo two massive square formations sandwiching the massive rectangular front formation; I guess those are the screamers , makes sense, gives them the room for a frontal charge on the AotD. Having studied military history, the AotD actually wouldn’t stand a chance, they number let’s say 150k, that’s means each Dothraki only has to kill 4 wights, game over.
      Therefore the NK has to have some devious battle plan, because no commander with 150k foot soldiers would go against 40k horsemen. Look what the Polish calvary did to hundreds of thousands of Ottomans at Vienna.

      I really don’t get the numbers at all. The Dothraki alone should number much more than 40K. That was the size of just Khal Drogo’s Khalasar. But Daenerys united every Khalasar. She killed at least 6 or 7 Khals. I can’t remember exactly now. Assuming they were only half of Drogo’s size each, that’s still anywhere from 120,000 to 150,000 Dothraki. The Army of the Dead is large, but is it really larger than that? As an upper limit, they have most of Mance’s 100,000 united Free Folk, minus the ones who got away or died early enough in battle with Stannis to have their bodies burned, plus the inhabitants of Last Hearth.

      So maybe that’s about even. But the side of the living also has the remaining armies of the North, the Vale, the Unsullied, and all of the armies of the Westerlands that surrendered and joined up after the loot train battle. The living should still outnumber the dead right now, and most of the living are mounted, and they have twice as many dragons. And the dead basically collapse if you even touch them with dragonglass, which everyone has. We saw a few men holds off thousands of wights for at least a day and night in the frozen lake battle because of their dragonglass.

      If everything is really as dire as the characters have made it out to be, the show isn’t being consistent with itself. Where did all their manpower go?

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    176. Luka Nieto,

      From the amount of the markers I thought that the Unsullied (8k) are in front of the Dothraki (40k), and closer to the enemy, like the Vale troops were in front of other Stark/Northmen. I hope they put some decent commanders on their right flank too, because that seemed quite a scattered heap.

      Anyway, I would hope that, even with a ceasefire, Daenerys and her advisors would have left some Dothraki behind to hold some strategic positions in the South (unlike Show!Stannis). But yes, they didn’t mention it. However, usually they have the numbers right, unlike the distances.

      @Adam above: about the number of the dead, NK could have been collecting for a few centuries.

      > if you even touch them with dragonglass

      For the wights, was it simply touching or did they have to be stabbed “lethally”? (like in the heart, liver… can’t remember the dragon pit exposition exactly) The WW are quite fragile, but they are wearing armor now.

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    177. fdr: From the amount of the markers I thought that the Unsullied (8k) are in front of the Dothraki (40k), and closer to the enemy, like the Vale troops were in front of other Stark/Northmen.

      You can see that’s not the case here.

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    178. Chilli,

      Why would Melisandre care about Davos or Jon’s threats when fulfilling the Lord of Light’s will and defeating the Army of the Dead are at stake?

      She’s already said that she’ll return to Westeros to die and that she’s been prepared to die for a long time. Of course she will turn up.

      Plus, she went to Volantis presumably to gather reinforcements and receive instruction from the rest of her cult. If they decide to meet the Army of the Dead in The North then threats made to Melisandre as an individual by Davos won’t matter.

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    179. The show has taught me one thing in these final seasons… usually what they tell you or show you, is true.

      Arya getting stabbed by the Waif.. SO much speculation about how it wasn’t her, it was someone else, etc.

      Wight Hunt – people speculated so much what was going to happen. What happened was they went and got a wight as planned.

      Jon Snow / when he was stabbed in s5, there were a million theories about his still being alive, his eye pupils, etc. but in the end, he died.

      In e2, Bran says that the NK wants to kill him to wipe out the memory of man…

      E2 also showed us a very nicely refurbished library at Winterfell where Sansa was for a scene. The crypts also certainly have history and information.

      So, I’m sticking with my theory that the AotD is at WF to destroy ancient information contained there, and the NK won’t be at WF, but instead is going to fly to the unprotected Citadel and burn it down. The Grand Maester of the Citadel told Sam Tarley that the Citadel is the memory of the world.

      AotD, once they’ve completed their mission at WF, will simply move on after wiping out a good portion of the north’s defenses and people.

      The Night King, in his press conference the next day will simply paraphrase Bill Belichick and say “we’re on to Kings Landing”

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    180. Chilli,

      Who knows what will happen when, but I haven’t been reducing Melisandre’s return to her death immediately when she does. While I think whatever she does do will help them in one manner or another I don’t think she’s the one that will kill the NK or that she’ll even live up to the point where he is. She could conceivably return (now) and provide them with something that will aid them (then). Perhaps her presence and death is all about protecting, saving or even resurrecting the ptwp…

      With all of the possibilities I wouldn’t rule out her arrival during this fight. They’ve already allowed Jaime’s inclusion so I wouldn’t think her previous expulsion from the North will matter at this time. And, she did go to Volantis for something. If she doesn’t return with help what was the point? I still have my fingers crossed for the Fiery Hand.

      Of course I’m not ruling out the possibility that she shows after. They may need the help after just as much.

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    181. Ten Bears,

      “Here’s what appears to be a multi-use weapon with interchangeable parts, one configuration of which could be a long range throwing spear, i.e., a javelin.
      Where did I see something like that? Oh right, the ice javelin that NK used to take down Visrrion.. What then could take down an undead Viserion? A dragonglass-tipped javelin. Who by? Someone with pinpoint throwing accuracy.”
      👸🏻 ASNAWP Q.E.D.

      I wish I had time to answer more in your post. I’m pretty sure it’s not for throwing but hand to hand combat. Besides, we’ve never seen her throw anything but those daggers (a nice addition to her weapon skills that I hope we see again). I don’t have the URL, but the Youtuber guy from Schola Gladiatoria gave a great explanation of the new weapon and why it’s perfect. You’ll love it. And for what it’s worth, Tommy Dunne said there’s a new weapon this season that is a scene-stealer. I wonder if it’s the new one in the hands of a proven scene-stealer! ASNAWP

        Quote  Reply

    182. shelle,

      Personally I hope the iron throne will be sort of destroyed in the end. I mean as a methafor for the power.

      I hope that they decide to go with 7 seperated kingdoms with all of them their own leader King lord. And those 7 together work together and all have the same power. (something like the eu or us in the early days.)

      Chilli,

      Why wouldn’t she return. Mel is ready to die for many many years. She is hoping she will find her rest once the nk is defeated. She even told varys she is going to die in westeros.

      And what if davos dies in the battle of winterfell. And jon gave up his power. So dany could want her alive for saving the day (night)

      Tobias Umber,

      This is what I think will happen also.

      Chilli,

      Same. Why else put so much money into the title sequence where you can see the movement of ice to only have that in the first 3 episodes. The only way I expect the nk could be death in episode 3 is if episode 4 till 6 will be the defeat of fire.

      —-

      What if we get a two parter in the fight. First the dothraki die. Second part is them fighting for the army of the dead. That would be scary as hell.

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    183. Sean C.,

      Ten Bears,

      I know, it does seem like a bit too much death, but how will they all escape if they lose the battle with the AOTD?

      They can’t simply run away. They’ll just get hunted down by the AOTD.

      I suppose there could be a number of people who escape through the crypts, but where do the crypts lead? Would it really be that hard to hunt the survivors down?

      IMO, the only way they can escape is with dragons.

      The only way large numbers of the “good guys” live is if they win and defeat the AOTD.

      However, if the AOTD wins the battle, I don’t see how much of anyone can escape without the help of dragons.

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    184. Re. the Dothraki.

      Their numbers were probably cut because it’s simply impractical to depict a hundred thousand or forty thousand cavalrymen.

      I think during the filming of the Battle of the Bastards they used fewer than 100 horses plus CGI to successfully depict a couple of thousand cavalry via quick editing, camera angles etc. Scaling that up by 20 or 50 times, I just don’t know how practical that really is.

      Perhaps later in the season it will be revealed that Dany held some Dothraki in reserve down south, but that doesn’t really align with the apocalyptic “we need every man we can get” narrative. If there are fewer Dothraki than there were originally then they could’ve provided an explanation – sickness, desertion, horses needing to be butchered for food, etc.

      But I think realistically they just hope we’ll ignore it. However many thousands of Dothraki there are, most are probably gonna get wiped out early on like in the BotB, so that they don’t have to try to depict a battlefield clogged full of horses.

      People doing full military analyses of battle tactics and troop numbers and how best to use them are forgetting that the producers’ real goal is creating drama on a limited budget in a limited time frame with myriad practical obstacles.

      Same goes for the people who were and maybe still are expecting the Army of the Dead to go roaming across Westeros in a months/years long campaign, attacking the Eyrie and the Citadel and King’s Landing and all culminating in a final battle on the Trident.

      It’s not likely to be practical.

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    185. Tobias Umber:

      The Night King, in his press conference the next day will simply paraphrase Bill Belichick and say “we’re on to Kings Landing”

      sporting his Blue torn sweatshirt and khakis no doubt

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    186. regarding the comment that there is a weapon this season that is a scene stealer…

      that gets the brain working.

      Mine thinks something we’ve seen already only upgraded. Kind of like Link’s Master sword after a few trails.

      Perhaps we’ll see a VS sword with a flame bazooka? That’d be rad

        Quote  Reply

    187. Kevin1989,

      By the way, if the Citadel is destroyed, then also destroyed is the only written record of the marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna. So it would thicken that plot line also.

        Quote  Reply

    188. Ten Bears:
      Laura,

      “Where are my dragons!” – Dany
      “Where are my elephants!” – Cersei
      “Where are my ice spiders!” – Jack B.
      “Where are my direwolves!” – Laura
      “Where are my chickens!” – Sandor
      “Where are my damn moron sons!” – Walder
      “Where are my balls!” – Lord Glover
      “Where are my limbs!” – Wight Lord Glover

      😃

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    189. Tobias Umber,

      But wouldn’t you think that would’ve been one of the books Samwell stole? I can’t remember if he mentioned what exactly he took, but I’d think that’d be one for sure.

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    190. Raenarys,

      Sam said he didn’t realize the significance of that diary entry at the time, so I don’t think so.

      I suspect (hope beyond hope?) that the writers haven’t forgotten about the existence of Howland Reed. This is the second time at least that the Starks have called the banners/instructed their presence at Winterfell and the Reeds completely ignored them.

        Quote  Reply

    191. Raenarys:
      Tobias Umber,

      But wouldn’t you think that would’ve been one of the books Samwell stole? I can’t remember if he mentioned what exactly he took, but I’d think that’d be one for sure.

      I doubt it. It seemed to me that Sam only really grasped the implications of what he heard when Bran told him that Lyanna and Rhaegar were Aegon’s parents. When he heard about the marriage, he still thought that Jon was Ned’s bastard.

        Quote  Reply

    192. ShameShameShame,
      JSchmeh,

      Ahh yes, that’s true. I forgot that bit there. But yes, I hope that Howland pops back up someway somehow as well. I feel like Dany is going to demand more proof. Unless she truly believes that Bran has visions.

        Quote  Reply

    193. Raenarys: I feel like Dany is going to demand more proof. Unless she truly believes that Bran has visions.

      Unless Daenerys simply decides to believe words of Jon’s family and friends, I still think she’s going to need real, solid proof. If Bran isn’t able to somehow magic other people into his visions of the past then what physical proof is there? Book!Daenerys may have figured it out simply from Jon riding Rhaegal…

      I’ll bring it up once again…
      The thinking on this is why I started my scenario months ago of Daenerys witnessing Jon not being burnt by fire. It would be PHYSICAL PROOF to her. Every time I bring it up people narrow mindedly mention Jon burning his hand early in the series and always say that Targaryens aren’t fireproof, and only Daenerys is on the show. We know all of that, but this is an adaptation! My scenario is that Daenerys believes that a true “dragon” can’t be killed/burnt by fire. Viserys was Targaryen but “not a dragon” in her eyes. It could be a trait Jon has acquired as he’s matured or through resurrection, or in other words, his dragon was awoken.

      If fire burns him it wouldn’t be proof that he’s not Targaryen, but if it doesn’t it would be 100% physical proof to Daenerys that he is. It doesn’t even need to be some huge display. She could simply ask him to stick his hand in a flame. Jon may do it believing he will be burnt anyway, and to even his surprise he does not…

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    194. … yet more direwolves disappointment talk…

      They’re heading into battle now that most of us probably assume Ghost will not survive through, nor Nymeria if she shows up. Even if he/they do some cool stuff during, we know it’s just to give them a send off. They’ve pushed them so far out of the story and even eliminated warging abilities of two main characters. Fine. I’m used to it now.

      What’s bothering me at this moment is realizing that AeJon never at any time said one damn word to Daenerys about Ghost and didn’t even take her to see him. She has dragons that they talk about, go cruising around on, and not once does he mention his giant direwolf that he raised from a pup!? It’s just a bit maddening how they (the show) treat Ghost like a 16 year old house cat that none of the family pays attention to anymore rather than a rare, fantastic beast that has a connection to Jon beyond being a “pet.”

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    195. Raenarys,

      IMO, we don’t need Howland Reed to prove Jon’s parentage to Dany. All we need is Dany’s conversation with Bran and his line from the trailer “Everything you did has brought you where you belong: HOME” implies that such conversation indeed will happen. I just wonder whether it’s gonna happen in Ep3: might be too early to resolve the conflict. On the other hand, the line may not lead to resolution: instead of accepting her fate of being Nissa-Nissa/Lightbringer (a traditionally feminine fate of being something in man’s hands) Dany may revolt and cause a lot of problems:) Still, I believe that everything is gonna be OK in the end.

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    196. Luka Nieto,

      Thanks! I hadn’t seen that one yet. There the Dothraki are clearly in front.

      Do you know what the symbol is on the triangular markers on the map that you linked? (I can’t decipher it, whether it’s something Dotraki, Unsullied or otherwise)

      Let’s assume that the map could have the opposite (wrong) order with Unsullied in front, and that all markers represent the same number of men. Royce has 2000 (5 markers) and the triangular markers are with 8000 (20 markers), which fits for the Unsullied. There are 64 round markers, still only about 25k, still too few for the Dothraki.

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    197. Wimsey: (…) non-flammable materials such as loosely held bags of rocks that would shred and break people would be effective.OK, sure, the broken wights would still fight: but they’d be far less efficient than whole wights.
      love showing lots of different forms of explosion, dismemberment, etc.

      i thought this to an end. Sandor had two shots in the frozen lake battle, and he won the lower jar of an undead. nothing more, and that thing could still walk, test the ice and release the attack.

      with enough stones of Sandor-is-a-bit-bored size, it should be possible to drop some of their jaws or even members. with more than enough stones it should even be possible to reduce a good part of the AotD to corpses as dangerous as their short time ambassodor at KL was. with even more stones, the whole battle might be between the NK, his generals and a huge field of bones doing some sort of bunny hop – and the living, pissing their pants laughing.

      wouldn’t that be epic? let’s ask Gendry about wasted time…

        Quote  Reply

    198. Tobias Umber,

      I had the same thought that the NK would attack the Citadel. They have twice mentioned how many books were stolen by Sam, and the Citadel does hold all the history of Westeros. I think Sam will discover that he stole the books containing the resolution to the WW situation. That gun is just hanging there on the wall.

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    199. Clob,

      “Book!Daenerys may have figured it out simply from Jon riding Rhaegal”

      I was wondering why that light didn’t go off in her head. That should’ve been proof enough, you’re right.

      “I’ll bring it up once again…
      The thinking on this is why I started my scenario months ago of Daenerys witnessing Jon not being burnt by fire. It would be PHYSICAL PROOF to her. Every time I bring it up people narrow mindedly mention Jon burning his hand early in the series and always say that Targaryens aren’t fireproof, and only Daenerys is on the show. We know all of that, but this is an adaptation! My scenario is that Daenerys believes that a true “dragon” can’t be killed/burnt by fire. Viserys was Targaryen but “not a dragon” in her eyes. It could be a trait Jon has acquired as he’s matured or through resurrection, or in other words, his dragon was awoken.”

      I do like this theory. Maybe that’s what’s going to happen from the looks of the last pic of Jon? There is fire behind him…

        Quote  Reply

    200. Inga: All we need is Dany’s conversation with Bran and his line from the trailer “Everything you did has brought you where you belong: HOME” implies that such conversation indeed will happen.

      This doesn’t make any sense… Why would Bran say that to Danny? It’s much more probable that Bran is addressing those words to Theon when they are in the godswood, closing Theon’s arc of redemption and simultaneously making him fodder for the WW/NK/wights.

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    201. Juri,

      Theon’s redemption arc is already closed: some technicalities remain, but his inner conflict was resolved in “The Dragon and the Wolf”. Meanwhile, Bran’s words is clearly an answer to someone who is conflicted, and Dany is like the only person in Winterfell who is conflicted: everyone else made peace with themselves and the others last episode. Moreover, HOME is a very clear callback to what Dany said about her desires back in the pilot episode and it’s the key word for the resolution of her current inner conflict. So, it should be Dany; Theon would be repetitive and totally unnecessary.

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    202. I don’t think Dany will need or get physical proof. All she really needs is one conversation with Bran, where he describes scenes from her journey that he could have no possible way of knowing. Her and Drogo on their wedding night, her smothering Drogo, her in the House of the Undying, or many other scenes.

        Quote  Reply

    203. Inga:
      Juri,

      Theon’s redemption arc is already closed: some technicalities remain, but his inner conflict was resolved in “The Dragon and the Wolf”. Meanwhile, Bran’s words is clearly an answer to someone who is conflicted, and Dany is like the only person in Winterfell who is conflicted: everyone else made peace with themselves and the others last episode. Moreover, HOME is a very clear callback to what Dany said about her desires back in the pilot episode and it’s the key word for the resolution of her current inner conflict. So, it should be Dany; Theon would be repetitive and totally unnecessary.

      Bran could be saying that to Dany in KL?

        Quote  Reply

    204. Inga,

      I think a successful argument can be made for both Dany and Theon. To me, it makes more sense for it to be Theon because Bran and Theon will be close to each other throughout the next episode facing death together.

      I don’t know when/how Dany and Bran would ever find the time in the next episode to have a quiet conversation together. If it’s Dany, I would think this line would have to be uttered by Bran in episodes 4-6.

      They CLAIM that all of the footage is from episodes 1-3, but I’m not so sure that’s accurate.

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    205. Inga: Theon would be repetitive and totally unnecessary.

      I agree with that. He’s had his moment with Jon, multiple moments with Sansa, and I believe his request and acceptance during the council to protect Branmotron was enough with him. He’s gotten his forgiveness from the Starks and told them he’ll fight for them as restitution.

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    206. Raenarys,

      I concur. Jon-Aegon must emerge from the fire unburnt at some point for Dany to accept him as a true and worthy heir of their house. And it ties to the PTWP prophesy. At some point the PTWP is supposed to draw a sword from fire and Jon-Aegon was losing or dropping Longclaw almost in every battle he fought. So, I predict that at some point the Night King will disarm him dropping Longcalw into fire and Jon will have to rush into fire to get it back and emerge unburnt fulfilling the prophesy and proving that he is who he is.

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    207. Mr Derp,

      The only thing we can say for sure now is that at least 3 shots from the trailers (Sansa non the battlements with a blue scarf arond her neck; Tyrion in the yard at daytime; and Jon&Dany by the fireplace at Dragonstone) are from after the battle and it looks like Bran’s line is from after the battle, too. The episode is 80+ minutes, the battle sequence, according to his majesty the Night King Vladimir Furdik, is supposed to last for 60 minutes, which leaves some 20 minutes for something like an aftermath. I don’t think they will succeed in destroying the Night King, but if he is after Bran, evacuating him to Dragonstone might become a solution at some point: the Night King would follow on his dragon, but he wouldn’t be able to bring his army with him.
      One way or another, last episode has given me a feeling that Tyrion will come up with some clever and ruthless plan and turn the Night King against Cersei and, if so, moving Bran closer to King’s Landing may be a part of it.

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    208. I am pretty sure some Dothraki have remained behind on Dragonstone, to protect it from takeover by MQCersei and Euron. Speaking of Euron, I don’t have a good feel for what his endgame is. It can’t be just to sleep with Cersei!

      Chilli:
      Why is everyone expecting Melisandre here? She’s not going to return to Winterfell. Davos threatened to kill her if she would return. The Night King won’t be killed in episode 3 when there are 6 episodes. The Night King will be killed in episode 5 or 6 somewhere around Kingslanding, and that’s where Melisandre will be. Btw, this is not a spoiler, just logical guessing.

      I agree. Especially because King’s Landing has FAR more people – hence future recruits in NK’s army – than Winterfell. Mel will be back with other Red Priestesses* and in KL. That’s where Davos and Jon will see her, and they will be happy for the help, provided they haven’t been recruited to NK’s army yet.

      * It’s interesting how the people in power in the Lord of Light’s religion are primarily FEMALE. We have seen male Red priests, but the High Priestess is a woman. As opposed to the High Septon (male). The citadel, of course, is male-exclusive.

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    209. Raenarys:
      ShameShameShame,
      JSchmeh,

      Ahh yes, that’s true. I forgot that bit there. But yes, I hope that Howland pops back up someway somehow as well. I feel like Dany is going to demand more proof. Unless she truly believes that Bran has visions.

      I hope not, especially with the limited time we have this season. Also, in my opinion, the drama would be FAR less if she demanded proof from Bran, Sam, Howland Reed, whoever, than if the realization came to her in time (perhaps during Episode 3 as she sees Jon with Rhaegal) on its own, and then the real drama was in what she was going to do with that information. Would she refuse to acknowledge Jon as the rightful heir and continue to press forward her claim, would she yield gracefully but continue to fight at his side, would she yield but would be ‘see ya, bye’ and fly off on Dragon back to somewhere warm?

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    210. I can’t believe some of the stuff I’m reading.

      In the preview for the next episode Dany and Jon are high on a hillside above the approaching AotD and Dany’s demeanour seems unchanged from how it was at the end of the previous episode.

      Do people actually believe she’s going to stop off in the godswood for a chinwag and some validation before then, and that it’s going to have no impact on her demeanour?

      You know who will be in the godswood with Bran next episode? Theon. And do you know whose home Winterfell was for years? Here’s a hint: not Dany.

      Last time Theon saw Bran was when he was humiliating him and beheading beloved family friends. Remember how the Ironborn also killed Maester Luwin and how Rickon is dead now, having been driven from the safety of his own home? Do you think Theon might possibly have something to say to Bran about everything he did? At the very least to heighten the emotional drama of their potential deaths? Or are they going to sit in silence during the episode until the Night King shows up?

      I’d say the odds of Bran delivering that line to Theon are vastly higher than they are of it being Dany, simply based on the known logistics and existing relationships.

      Why are people eager to concoct reasons why that line could or should be delivered to Dany instead of the far more obvious candidate?

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    211. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: Why are people eager to concoct reasons why that line could or should be delivered to Dany instead of the far more obvious candidate?

      It’s not so much debating who it should or shouldn’t be as it is simply raising and discussing other possibilities, like we do for just about everything. Our primary guesses for such things are often correct, but we’re also wrong a lot too.

      Yes, it does seem most likely to be Theon (if we want to believe that the statement Bran makes is IN the godswood before the shit starts). It’s also entirely possible that he says those things at a different time or place with someone else with him.

      WIthout saying that it won’t be, I did agree that I think it’s a bit of an unnecessary exchange between Branmotron and Theon at this point. Some very important conversations are never seen to be had but we’re going to have multiple regarding Theon’s requesting forgiveness? I’ve also never considered Theon to be THAT important… so there’s that on my part too.

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    212. Clob: Unless Daenerys simply decides to believe words of Jon’s family and friends, I still think she’s going to need real, solid proof.If Bran isn’t able to somehow magic other people into his visions of the past then what physical proof is there?Book!Daenerys may have figured it out simply from Jon riding Rhaegal…

      Maybe if Bran repeats Mirri’s words or describes something Dany saw in the HoTU?

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    213. ShameShameShame:
      Raenarys,

      Sam said he didn’t realize the significance of that diary entry at the time, so I don’t think so.

      I suspect (hope beyond hope?) that the writers haven’t forgotten about the existence of Howland Reed.This is the second time at least that the Starks have called the banners/instructed their presence at Winterfell and the Reeds completely ignored them.

      But didn’t we see Gilly reading from that diary, which Sam then handed to Little Sam to play with. Next we see him raiding the library and then them departing. We don’t see him returning books before he does so and it’s unlikely he’d leave any Citadel books behind in his former lodgings (because he’s too much a goodie two shoes and would want to return them one day, or failing that, they’re still books and this is Sam we’re talking about), so it’s very likely he has that diary with him at Winterfell.

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    214. Che,

      Why would Jon’s path suddenly be made easier (ie Sam has the book)?

      Wrecking the Citadel is a spectacle of power to infuse fear in the entire continent, and the Jon and Dany plot line gets stickier if the book is destroyed.

      Maybe Sam has it. I don’t think he does. Then Bran has to prove his powers to Dany.

      I do think the Citadel is toast. All of those non-believing book worms will roast in blue fire (ice?).

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    215. Tobias Umber,

      One last thought on this… going back to Dany’s vision in the house of the Undying.

      She reaches for the throne but never touches it. Instead she hears cries and goes to the cries.

      Symbolic of choosing love over the throne.

      Maybe with all proof of Jon’s claim destroyed, she ends up choosing to believe him and doesn’t go for the IT.

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    216. Tobias Umber,

      Yes, and the throne room is burnt and there is Snow on the throne, of course.

      Dany still has a prophecy to fulfill… IMO Khal Drogo was her great love, and Jon’s great love was Ygritte. I frankly don’t think the show has shown Dany and Jon to be so fiercely in love. All we’ve seen is one night on the boat and a dragon ride.

      Not popular, I know, but if Dany gets a choice to be back with Drogo and Rhaego, she would take it in a heartbeat.

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    217. ShameShameShame,
      Yeah, no, I don’t think so… The show’s visuals and call-backs give a bit different impression, but I never felt that Drogo and Ygritte were the be-all, end-all loves of their lives while I read. It was also easier to create relationships and make them “believable” when that was a primary focus of the character storylines at the time. They’ve had to try and do the same for J&D while the focus of the entire show storyline is also thrown on top of them.

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    218. ShameShameShame,

      Jon/Dany seems very one-sided so far. Some people don’t want to admit it, but it does.

      Dany was making all the moves last season until Jon suddenly appeared at her door five minutes before the end of the season.

      Dany has now openly declared her love for Jon to another character, while the opportunity that we had to see Jon do the same cut away at the crucial moment.

      We had that weird moment in the premiere where Jon was distracted by the dragons while he was supposed to be engaged in a big romantic moment with Dany. Why did they break up this romantic moment like that? When Dany made a remark about staying together forever at the waterfall, mimicking Ygritte’s comments about “never leaving this cave”, Jon responded with a joke, I guess, about how old they’d become.

      If they’re trying to sell us on Jon’s deep love for Dany, then they’re not doing a great job of it. And there’s a lot more agreement on how ‘off’ this relationship feels than the proponents of this “ship” would like to acknowledge.

      We also had Dany insisting that Jon is “true to his word”, continuing the theme from last season about Jon’s supposed honesty (Cersei: “I know Ned Stark’s son will be true to his word”), in the same breath as admitting that she had essentially been manipulated into abandoning her quest for the Iron Throne to come and fight Jon’s war.

      I think there’s a real possibility now that Jon’s love for Dany is not quite as genuine as we’re supposed to believe.

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    219. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I really appreciate this comment, very well stated. Agreed.

      Jon and Dany’s love scene happened behind closed doors too. And even the snogging scene in the snow was interrupted by the dragon staring. So the great supposed love story is just not there.

      I suspect that the restraint has to do with the incest angle, but that also seems strange considering Jaime and Cersei.

      Remember when Leia kissed Luke “for luck” well before we knew they were twins? 😛

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    220. You make a lot of good points. The relationship has been as problematically written as Dany herself has been for the last few seasons. They started turning me off with the “mad queen” angle a while back (season 5 I think). We’ve already got the entitled, embittered, vengeful queen in Cersei. I hope to the gods that they don’t take that road with Dany too. Equally cliche and tropey (and repetitive re her own mother and Jon’s) would be her dying in childbirth, if she’s actually pregnant. While we can all debate Dany’s decisions, we should also do that for Jon, Tyrion, Varys, Jamie, etc etc. Dany listens more than Jon does. And he’s recklessly endangered more people than she has. I suspect he will in episode 3 as well. Everybody she’s executed, she’s given a choice. It would be very irritating if all the guys get hero/redemption arcs while leaving Dany’s legacy in the muck. So I honestly don’t ship them. I just want to see a fitting end to each arc. If they end up together, fine. If not, fine.

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    221. ShameShameShame,

      I do not know if it means that their relationship is not genuine from both sides. Jon seems to be very fond of her.

      So far, it is certainly presented as something that may not last – it is troubled.

      Their boat sex scene was presented without the first caresses and kisses, disrobing, tenderness, endearments often seen for a couple in love that is together for the first time. Alternatively, it was also without the first time urgency of say Robb & Talisa that had passion driven quickness. Even Arya and Gendry had more in their sex scene.

      Whatever it turns out to be, it lacks some the features that should make it the big important love story of the series. Maybe when they work thru their problems, we will get a love scene worthy.

      I expected them to get together as I think Jon’s role was to get the armies north and get Daenerys to her real purpose – that has been achieved despite the oddities.

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    222. ixora:
      You make a lot of good points. The relationship has been as problematically written as Dany herself has been for the last few seasons. They started turning me off with the “mad queen” angle a while back (season 5 I think). We’ve already got the entitled, embittered, vengeful queen in Cersei. I hope to the gods that they don’t take that road with Dany too. Equally cliche and tropey (and repetitive re her own mother and Jon’s) would be her dying in childbirth, if she’s actually pregnant. While we can all debate Dany’s decisions, we should also do that for Jon, Tyrion, Varys, Jamie, etc etc. Dany listens more than Jon does. And he’s recklessly endangered more people than she has. I suspect he will in episode 3 as well. Everybody she’s executed, she’s given a choice. It would be very irritating if all the guys get hero/redemption arcs while leaving Dany’s legacy in the muck. So I honestly don’t ship them. I just want to see a fitting end to each arc. If they end up together, fine. If not, fine.

      Cersei and Daenerys have been playing similar characters for a long time. Both are power hungry individuals desperate for the same job. You probably just did not notice.

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    223. So when I brought up Dany and her choosing love, based on her vision in the HotU, if I recall correctly, the crying that she heard before walking away from the throne was, was the crying of her dragons.

      When I say she chose love over the throne, it doesn’t necessarily mean she chooses Jon, or anything in particular for that matter.

      She didn’t touch the throne and moved away from it. That means something for someone so hell bent on getting the throne.

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    224. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      The scripts would say otherwise.

      Not to mention, Jon’s unwillingness to engage in big deceptions was literally a huge plot point in 707. If he was deceiving Daenerys, lying to Cersei shouldn’t have been an issue.

      I don’t disagree that the presentation of Jon and Dany’s relationship has been heavy on tell rather than show, but that’s simply bad writing.

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    225. Mango: Cersei and Daenerys have been playing similar characters for a long time. Both are power hungry individuals desperate for the same job. You probably just did not notice.

      I agree, however I believe that their motivations are entirely different. And those motivations are what make Dany a protagonist and Cercei an antagonist in the story.

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    226. Sean C.:
      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      The scripts would say otherwise.

      Not to mention, Jon’s unwillingness to engage in big deceptions was literally a huge plot point in 707.If he was deceiving Daenerys, lying to Cersei shouldn’t have been an issue.

      I don’t disagree that the presentation of Jon and Dany’s relationship has been heavy on tell rather than show, but that’s simply bad writing.

      I agree. And even with the problems in writing that love story, the scenes when they are together, especially when Jon takes her to the place he used to hunt as a boy, shows his affection for her. And his face when he looks at her, lights up, and we get those rare 5 star smiles from both of them looking at each other.

      Could the love story between them be better written? Yes!
      But bearing in mind the circumstances under which this relationship has been created, there is this element of desperation in it, facing humanity’s doom. It’s like love as the antidote for all that death that comes for them all. And in another level, the relationship in itself is a cause for further drama, because.. .Aegon – and they didn’t know that, so it’s a star-crossed lovers theme.

      While I would have loved the writers give their relationship more space and time to grow, I do understand why they didn’t – given the larger perspective of the story.

      To me it is one of the biggest love stories in the series – and I do feel for them, they both deserved to happy. But Alas,it’s Game of thrones. Love may not be enough. Or perhaps, it will be; we’ll find out what purpose it serves in the story – even if that is solely to break our hearts! 💔

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    227. Clob: Unless Daenerys simply decides to believe words of Jon’s family and friends, I still think she’s going to need real, solid proof.If Bran isn’t able to somehow magic other people into his visions of the past then what physical proof is there?Book!Daenerys may have figured it out simply from Jon riding Rhaegal…

      I’ll bring it up once again…
      The thinking on this is why I started my scenario months ago of Daenerys witnessing Jon not being burnt by fire.It would be PHYSICAL PROOF to her.Every time I bring it up people narrow mindedly mention Jon burning his hand early in the series and always say that Targaryens aren’t fireproof, and only Daenerys is on the show.We know all of that, but this is an adaptation!My scenario is that Daenerys believes that a true “dragon” can’t be killed/burnt by fire.Viserys was Targaryen but “not a dragon” in her eyes.It could be a trait Jon has acquired as he’s matured or through resurrection, or in other words, his dragon was awoken.

      If fire burns him it wouldn’t be proof that he’s not Targaryen, but if it doesn’t it would be 100% physical proof to Daenerys that he is.It doesn’t even need to be some huge display.She could simply ask him to stick his hand in a flame.Jon may do it believing he will be burnt anyway, and to even his surprise he does not…

      Jon already burned himself in season 2 when serving Mormont. As a book reader I already knew that he should be son of Rhaegal, but cannot be a Dragon. There is still a little chance they did that by accident and in S803 he might not burn to death and everyone will know.

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    228. Frank,

      In the books Dany also burns her hands in the fighting pit of Meereen, so it’s something deeper. Maybe, going through fire unburnt requires some psychological commitment? One way or another, the stake should be high, otherwise there is no ordeal in that.

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    229. Inga,

      GRRM said that Dany surviving Drogo’s funeral pyre was a one-time magical event.

      SiriuslyStarkTarg,

      To me it is one of the biggest love stories in the series – and I do feel for them, they both deserved to happy. But Alas,it’s Game of thrones. Love may not be enough. Or perhaps, it will be; we’ll find out what purpose it serves in the story – even if that is solely to break our hearts!

      In the book series? They haven’t even met.

      It’s only one of the biggest love stories in the fandom.

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    230. Sean C.: If he was deceiving Daenerys, lying to Cersei shouldn’t have been an issue.

      Well, I would argue that the whole point of not lying to Cersei may have been about winning Dany’s trust all along. That’s why it’s interesting that Dany is now parroting Cersei’s words from the Dragonpit about Jon being “true to his word”.

      How does she know he’s “true to his word”? Presumably it’s from his refusal to lie at the Dragonpit. And what did Jon ultimately lose by refusing to lie? Nothing. Cersei was never going to come north anyway.

      But what did he gain? Well, let Jon and Dany explain in their own words:

      Jon: “All I wanted was to protect The North. I brought two armies home with me. Two dragons… Do you think we can beat the Army of the Dead without her? You want to worry about who holds what title, I’m telling you it doesn’t matter”

      Dany: “All my life I’ve known one goal: the Iron Throne. Taking it back from the people that destroyed my family and almost destroyed yours. Until I met Jon. And now I’m here, half a world away, fighting Jon’s war alongside him. Tell me, who manipulated whom? … I’m here because I love your brother. And I trust him. And I know he is true to his word. He’s only the second man in my life I can say that about”

      At the very least, it’s an interesting prospect with existing potential in what’s been said and portrayed on-screen.

      What was written in last season’s scripts or what the producers and actors say in interviews doesn’t necessarily matter compared to what’s ultimately portrayed on-screen. If they decide to flip it all on its head, then all it means is that they hid their intentions well.

      If they have inadvertently stumbled across this potential twist and now stumble past it, I think that’d be a huge missed opportunity for the show.

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    231. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I think it’s a mixed situation (Dany as a powerful woman and a kind of saviour-figure obviously affected his feelings) but I have a hard time believing that Jon is only pretending to be in love with Daenerys, just to get her dragons and armies. Why didn’t he reply then to Sansa that he is better in manipulating Daenerys than she was in manipulating Littlefinger? Why would Sansa suspect that Daenerys manipulated him if Jon weren’t simply in love (according to the script, of course)

      Or was Sansa manipulating Daenerys into believing that Jon really loves her so she won’t change her mind about helping the North, after Sansa herself did her best the episode before to make Daenerys change her mind by being ungrateful… (irony off)

      Perhaps it could have been written more clearly, but Davos, Sansa and Tyrion voiced that they suspect Jon is in love, and Jorah had some jealous eyes too in S7. And S8E2 was clearly Jon trying to avoid Daenerys because he has a problem loving someone who is his aunt.

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    232. ShameShameShame,

      That’s what I meant and Dany will have 3 ordeals of that type in the books (three fires). So Jon may have an ordeal with fire too and emerge unburnt (that’s the whole point of a traditional ordeal).

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    233. Sansa looking miserable and bratty again , will we see her show anything else,

      does anyone know the scene count for each character for the whole show,? she must surely be at the top,

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    234. sellsword,

      I believe Sansa was #4, or maybe #5, as of season 7. Jon, Tyrion and Dany are top 3, I just can’t remember if Cersei beat out Sansa. Will try and find it.

      ETA here ya go, scroll down for the chart. https://qz.com/1065792/game-of-thrones-every-character-ranked-by-screen-time-through-season-7/

      Top 10, in minutes, as of Season 7

      Jon 338
      Tyrion 337
      Dany 276
      Sansa 239
      Cersei 236
      Arya 224
      Jaime 199
      Sam 144
      Jorah 143
      Theon 136

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    235. fdr,

      We never saw what Jon’s answer to Sansa’s question was. Why not?

      Presumably Jon would never intend to admit any deception anyway, if he didn’t have to. He’d carry the burden for his people and his family, just like Ned did, and hope that they keep faith with him.

      Why would Sansa assume that Daenerys manipulated him? Well, Littlefinger did put the thought in her mind at the end of last season, that Jon might succumb to the dragon queen’s beauty.

      It might be worth noting that it’s only after Sansa has told Daenerys that Jon loves her that Daenerys delivers her lines about abandoning all her plans to come and fight Jon’s war and wonders “who manipulated whom?”. And Sansa’s response to that suggestion was like the archetypal epiphany reaction. They may as well have had a lightbulb appear above her head. And then she immediately changes tack with Daenerys, attempting to flatter and manipulate her herself.

      I think it can easily be argued that things are set up for Jon’s love for Daenerys to be revealed to be less sincere than first appeared. Whether they meant that or whether they follow through on it is a different question.

      I think it’d make a great twist and explain a lot of Jon’s strange and naive behaviour last season and this.

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    236. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Okay, I’m going to bite on this again 😉

      We never saw what Jon’s answer to Sansa’s question was. Why not?

      I think the answer is easy. Dramatic cut-away 🙂

      Sansa didn’t just ask Jon, “Are you in love with her?” She asked him, “Did you bend the knee to save the North or because you love her?” which is a different question — questioning Jon’s reasons for bending the knee rather than just questioning if Jon’s in love.

      And it is kind of a halting question because I do think love has coloured Jon’s decision and that’s why he made it so hastily and pretty emotionally before even talking to Sansa, Davos, etc. al. But Jon also bent the knee because he thinks Dany will be, as he told Sansa, a good queen. He pledged to Dany after he saw Dany fighting for the realm despite losing a dragon, he saw her putting aside her quest for the Iron Throne to defend the North, coming all the way to the Dragonpit to try and form a truce with archnemesis Cersei so that she can focus her all on defending the North, he saw her for “what [she] is”.

      Jon’s goal has always been to protect the North and the realm, it’s never been for a political goal. And he’s hardly afraid of making himself unpopular in the process. By pissing off a powerful ally by pretending to be in love with her to use her (and pissed would be an understatement if I was Dany here), Jon would be giving Dany a gift-wrapped reason to a) have reason not to help the North post-war or pre-war and/or b) go to war against him and the North if they survive – all for the sake of a title he doesn’t want.

      If Dany somehow found out about this plan before the battle, she could just be all, “Screw this, I’m leaving. Good luck guys!” Why would Jon risk making a bad situation even worse? What’s he protecting the North from in this case? He’d be risking not only Dany finding out before the battle and getting on out of there, but if the North survives, he’s risking the North’s chances post-war when it cannot survive on its own. Even if he were deceiving Dany, he still pledged the North to her and made that declaration in front of witnesses – how would Jon think he would get out of that one in this case? By right of conquest in a war against Dany or simply by reassuming a title he doesn’t want? At a time when the North needs help to rebuild and survive, if they survive?

      And what did Jon ultimately lose by refusing to lie? Nothing. Cersei was never going to come north anyway.

      If Jon had thought Cersei would put power ahead of the Zombie Apocalypse threatening to annihilate everyone, why would he and Dany trek all that way to King’s Landing and even bother with Cersei? Even Tyrion and Jaime, who know Cersei, thought Cersei would put self-preservation ahead of power for the moment. How could Jon know how insane Cersei really was to come up with the insane plan she did, assuring her own defeat, when Jaime and Tyrion didn’t even realize it until they were told?

      I don’t know, this theory doesn’t make a lot of sense to me for the reasons above. Jon’s goal is to protect the North but I don’t see how deceiving and pretending to love Dany helps him out with that.

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    237. Adrianacandle:
      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I don’t know, this theory doesn’t make a lot of sense to me for the reasons above. Jon’s goal is to protect the North but I don’t see how deceiving and pretending to love Dany helps him out with that.

      I’ve never found this “Political Jon” theory convincing either (it’s been proposed on other GoT discussion sites before). For instance, if Jon was only pretending to be in love with Dany, why did he still sleep with her *after* she had already promised to help him? If he were manipulating her, it would have made more sense to seduce her into sleeping with him *in order to* secure her promise. And why did he reveal to her that he was the true heir? If he were manipulating her, shouldn’t he have continued keeping it a secret for the time being?

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    238. Lunaselene,

      And that’s the thing. I don’t think the sequence of events really lines up to support this theory. As you said, Jon and Dany didn’t officially act on their personal relationship until well after Dany vowed to fight the Night King and after seeing him and the AOTD for herself, they didn’t act on their personal relationship until after Jon bent the knee to Dany. Jon didn’t have to lie and manipulate to get Dany to that point.

      Why would Jon need to boatsex Dany if Dany’s already on board with helping out the North? Why would Jon need to deceive and manipulate her at this point when she’s already agreed to help?

      While true, Ned was saving a baby, his nephew, by lying to the world about his identity. Who is Jon saving by lying to Dany that he loves her?

      Speaking of, also like you said, Jon was honest with Dany about his identity and told her before he told anybody else – after him, the information concerns Dany the most because they’re surprise family! 😉

      Plus, the consequences of deceiving and using a powerful ally like Dany by pretending to love her would be pretty disastrous. While I personally can’t see Dany going all fire and blood on Jon, she’d definitely have reason to and Jon would be risking another war. Plus, Dany is the one in this situation who’d have the most access to resources the North would need to rebuild and sustain itself post-war. Would Jon have to pretend to love Dany forever? I can’t think of what benefit Jon would be gaining other than Northern independence, which has never been Jon’s primary concern. It’s the primary concern of Sansa and the Northern lords.

      But is an independent North worth it if it can’t find the help to rebuild itself?

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    239. Adrianacandle,

      “Love is the death of duty.” Maybe Jon Snow finally learned that lesson?

      I don’t think he deliberately deceived Dany, but I do think his lackluster romantic expression towards her is HUGE for the narrative.

      Was he just holding back, because of the lesson Maester Aemon taught him? And then that paid off when he found out Dany is his “Aunt”, which we know freaked him out a bit?

      I think it will actually go deeper, and there is a more important reason we never got a sex scene from the supposed “most important romance” in the show.

      *cough* twins

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    240. ShameShameShame,

      I think we’re getting a bit into the subjective here (if we weren’t there already ;D). I don’t think Jon has a lacklustre romantic expression or that it’s going to mean something big for the narrative – but that’s totally dependent on the viewer so YMMV! 🙂 Also, I’m not a writer for the show, what do I know?? 🙂

      But I mean, he’s not going to go all lovey-dovey when in front of the Northern lords as Warden of the North (like that’d go over well, that’s all anybody needs) but I think there are examples where he’s been very affectionate with Dany.

      However, I do think in the beginning, for most of season 7, Jon resisted (‘love is the death of duty’, as you referenced) to remain single-mindedly focused on the AOTD but then Dany went and fought the army of the dead, vowed to defeat the Night King in spite of her huge loss, and this is what totally won him over. I mean, if Stannis was a lady when he declared their one true enemy was the AOTD, I think Jon’s eyes would go a bit heart shaped there too 😉

      But YMMV. And for the record, I do think it would have been so much better if Jon talked to his people before bending the knee, however much he wanted to. I think that was a decision with consequences he didn’t need at that time but – yeah.

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    241. Im all for shocking twists, but not at the expense of 8 seasons of character development.

      It needs to make sense. If Aegon turns out to be just another schemer like everyone else after all we’ve gone through with him and he’s just playing Dany, that would be…disappointing to say the least. I would go so far as to say it’s “jumping the shark” territory. That’s not in line with his character in any way, shape, or form.

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    242. Adrianacandle,

      I do understand all that, and I even agree with most of it, but what do you think the writers were going for when they decided not to show Dany and Jon’s first lovemaking session? I mean, this is GOT, no one’s shy, especially in the age of body doubles. Or not to have Jon declare his love, not even in private to Dany? Or to have their snog session interrupted by the dragon staring? Surely they could have had a more romantic/sexy makeout session at least… but no, it turned into a moment of comedy.

      Writers make decisions for a reason, and if this is supposed to be a great romance, why would they decide not to show that to the viewers?

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    243. ShameShameShame: Double tinfoil – Dany is Jon’s mother!

      Since we are at it: when Mirri Maz Duur was performing her blood magic, a pregnant Dany managed to time-travel and warged into Lyanna, exchanging fetuses with her. Thus Jon is actually the Khal Drogo’s and Dany’s son, which makes him the Stallion who Mounts the World.

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    244. ShameShameShame,

      They did show the sex scene, albeit montage style with Rhaegar and Lyanna’s wedding. The words “he loved her and she loved him” were said over it. i thought it was pretty obvious what the writers were going for.

      I don’t understand the logic that we have to have a prolonged, steamy sex scene in order to believe they love each other. They’ve spelled it out so many different ways that it really doesn’t need to be spoon fed to us at this point. Ramsey and Myranda had a couple of steamy sex scenes and they weren’t exactly in love with each other, so why do the rules change for Jon and Dany?

      Most everyone believes that Jaime and Brienne love each other, but they’ve never had a sex scene, so I guess they really are going to betray each other in the end?

      There’s been plenty of genuine moments of love in the show that were not shown in a “romantic” or “sexy” style. Gilly and Sam had sex right after Sam got his ass kicked. That certainly wasn’t a romantic love scene, but we all know Sam and Gilly love each other genuinely, yes?

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    245. It’s genuinely depressing to me that anybody could suggest that a character on a show called Game of Thrones, who already lied to his lover’s face for an entire season before abandoning her once his cover was blown, turning out to have lied and manipulated another character in order to save his family and his people and the entire continent from a zombie apocalypse that he’s been warning against for 8 seasons, would be a “jump the shark” moment.

      Honestly…

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    246. ShameShameShame:
      Adrianacandle,

      I do understand all that, and I even agree with most of it, but what do you think the writers were going for when they decided not to show Dany and Jon’s first lovemaking session?I mean, this is GOT, no one’s shy, especially in the age of body doubles.Or not to have Jon declare his love, not even in private to Dany?Or to have their snog session interrupted by the dragon staring?Surely they could have had a more romantic/sexy makeout session at least… but no, it turned into a moment of comedy.

      Writers make decisions for a reason, and if this is supposed to be a great romance, why would they decide not to show that to the viewers?

      I think they showed that part of their sex scene to work it into Bran’s VO revelation montage. Bran’s VO starts when Jon approaches Dany’s door with the, “He loved her,” and then Dany opens the door, “She loved him.” Then the whole flashback to the wedding/Jon’s birth/Lyanna’s “Promise me, Ned” and we get Jon and Dany doing the Relationship Upgrade! ….. And it’s Surprise Incest! Yikes! I think it’s supposed to set up the conflict to come with the Jon/Dany relationship, the “human heart in conflict with itself.”

      Dany’s only just declared her love for Jon to Sansa in this latest episode so I’m not sure if it’s that one-sided if Jon hasn’t yet. Interviews with cast and writers tell us they are but Jon’s a whole lot more reserved on that front than Dany is. Ygritte was making all the “you’re mine and I’m yours” declarations while she and Jon were together but Jon only declared his love for Ygritte when she was about to shoot his face with an arrow a good season and a half into their relationship 😉 And then again in season 5, well well after that relationship was over. Even when Tormund asked Jon in 410, “Did you love [Ygritte]?” Jon didn’t answer there. So I’m not sure if this choice that he hasn’t yet is something all that big.

      But I think there are quite a few moments between Jon and Dany that aren’t interrupted by staring dragons 🙂 However, perception is going to vary from viewer to viewer.

      And again, what do I know? However, I personally don’t see the story making much of an issue with the things you’ve pointed out.

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    247. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I’ve got some Lexapro if you need some 🙂

      And ygritte already knew he was full of shit. She specifically told him that when they were about to climb the Wall. Jon doesn’t lie or deceive very well. Almost none of the wildlings actually believed Jon was being truthful, so there’s that.

      Also, since when is every character on Game of Thrones a backstabber or a willing participant in the game?

      Ned lied to his own wife to protect Jon’s life. Does that mean he would also deceive and murder too? I think you know the answer to that.

      Not everyone on this show is a player. Jon is just like Ned.

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    248. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      There’s a big big difference between the situation with Ygritte and Dany.

      Jon was put into a position where he was assigned to go undercover and get info on Mance’s attack – to defend the Wall and the realm against an attack. Jon never intended to fall in love with Ygritte, he never intended to sleep with her, he didn’t want to fall in love with her but he did. Part of him even wanted to stay with Ygritte – but staying with Ygritte meant attacking the Wall, attacking the realm. That was a direct case of love vs. duty.

      This UCL theory posits Jon is manipulating Dany and pretending to love her just to get her dragons and resources to defeat the Night King so Jon can also retain Northern independence. But the thing is, Jon’s motivation isn’t Northern independence. It’s protecting the realm. Dany isn’t attacking the Wall. In contrast, she’s vowed to help defeat the Night King and Jon didn’t need to lie or manipulate Dany for her to do that. What good would come out of Jon deceiving Dany and pretending to love her so he can use her? Other than Northern independence, which has never been Jon’s primary goal, I can only think of consequences.

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    249. Juri,

      That’s exactly the tinfoil I was referring to. The show has only touched on Bran’s ability to screw things up when he messes with time, and yes, the blood magic ritual that “sacrificed” the SWMTW was sketchy as beans (more so in the book).

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    250. ShameShameShame,

      I have never heard that theory before! Wow.

      Yikes.

      I don’t know quite to make of that but… if aunt/nephew was bad… XD

      Buster: Sister’s my new mother, Mother. And is it just me, or is she looking hotter, too?

      Lucille: Well, why don’t you marry her?

      Buster: Maybe I will!

      Michael: We’re veering away from relatability again.

        Quote  Reply

    251. If the show has Jon and Dany declaring their love for one another, one could always claim that they’re lying.

      If others mention that they love each other, one could always claim that they don’t truly know.

      Instead we literally have Bran talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna saying “he loved her and she loved him” over the images of Jon and Daenerys… in essence functioning as an omniscient narrator. It doesn’t get anymore conclusive than that lol. Yet we still have people refusing to follow the narrative.

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    252. Adrianacandle,

      The twin idea been kicked around a lot, especially as a parallel to Luke and Leia in Star Wars. But sometimes the NK himself (Darth Vader – the Dark Father) is papa. Heh.

      One of the sketchy parts of Drogo and MMR’s blood magic ritual in the book is the wolf shadow and the “man wreathed in flames” dancing in the tent. Lots of possible hocus pocus afoot, fun to speculate.

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    253. Juri:
      Adrianacandle,

      Lucille (earlier that day): I don’t care for Arya.

      Oh, god, that’s definitely one of my favourite lines.

      And another Mother Lover favourite XD

      Buster: How about a turtle? I love those leathery little snappy faces.

      Michael: You certainly have a type.

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    254. ShameShameShame,

      Wow… the twisted part of me kind of loves that… Twincest is what drew me into the show because I couldn’t believe it but I couldn’t not watch…

      What does that say about me…. Maybe I’ve got some deep reflection to do….

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    255. If you contrast Jon/Ygritte and Dany/Drogo with Jon/Dany, the Jon/Dany stuff has been far less developed because of the timeline the writers chose. On top of that, what has been shown has frequently been interrupted — either by Branmotron’s voicover and Jon’s mother clinging to life in the middle of blood-soaked sheets; or by the dragons, twice; or we see them at a distance as the “old men” watch on and talk about the advantages of their pairing before Varys concludes that “nothing lasts”. It’s either that the writers intentionally aren’t really letting us invest in their relationship like we did with the others. Or that they actually want us to but haven’t written it well enough!

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    256. Mr Derp,

      Is it possible that getting better at lying and learning to play the Game of Thrones better than Ned and Robb, whose naivety and honesty got them killed and which Jon was specifically warned against emulating, could be part of that character development you were talking about?

      Adrianacandle,

      There’s really not much difference between the situations.

      What it basically comes down to is that Jon did what he needed to do, including lying, breaking vows and pretending to be something he’s not, in order to achieve his aim of ensuring his people’s survival.

      Btw, I haven’t said anything about Northern independence. I’ve never suggested that Jon’s goal has been anything other than gaining Dany’s assistance in ensuring his people’s survival.

      Why would he need to manipulate Dany? How about because even after the death of Viserion and her pledge to defeat the Night King and Jon bending the knee she still had one eye on the Iron Throne, saying, “I can’t pretend that Cersei won’t take back half the country the moment I march north” at the Dragonpit.

      Now in Season 8 we hear Dany declare that she put her ambitions aside to fight Jon’s war specifically because she loves him and trusts him. Not because the Night King killed Viserion… not because everybody agreed to fight together… not because she felt duty bound to defend the people of the Seven Kingdoms… but because Jon had won her trust and affection.

      Why would he take the risk? Because he’s certain everybody’s doomed without Dany’s assistance. Seems like a pretty good reason.

      And who says he would have any intention of Dany or anybody else ever finding out? Everything seemed to be going to plan until someone informed him that he was shagging his aunt.

      Now let’s assess the alternative analysis of Jon’s decision-making: 1. He needlessly gave up his crown, even after Dany pledged to fight the Army of the Dead, knowing full well that it’d infuriate his people, because he’d come to the conclusion that she was simply amazing; 2. He refused to lie to Cersei because he’s a doltish honourable fool (to paraphrase Robert & Jaime) who would risk the breakdown of a vital truce for no apparent reason; 3. He was simply so overcome with love and lust that he couldn;t resist jumping into bed with Dany, regardless of the consequences or how it might look to his family and his people.

      How does any of that make more sense or make Jon look any better than the theory that every decision Jon made was calculated to ensure Dany’s support and loyalty in the oncoming zombie apocalypse that he’s been fighting since Season 1?

      As a Jon Snow fan, I consider my theory vastly preferable to the possibility that he’s just a naive, reckless, lovestruck dope who can’t lie, can’t keep it in his pants and gives up his kingdom unnecessarily.

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    257. The comparison doesn’t hold up well if you drill disk beyond them being women who seek power (Sansa does as well). Cersei didn’t necessarily want to be queen of the seven kingdoms — she just wanted her family and only her family in charge, and her own sense of agency within that construct. She ascends to the throne after all her children die. Along the way, she is absolutely ruthless to enemies. By contrast, Dany wanted the throne, and to return from exile, since season one. Every one of her enemies was given the opportunity to choose the outcome for themselves, which at the very least meant not opposing her. Cersei never gave anybody that opportunity. Dany has also, in great measure, had egalitarian causes that benefitted people other than herself — also something Cersei could never claim, as nobody but her family ever counted to her. So…the Cersei/Dany comparison doesn’t extend very far.

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    258. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: Is it possible that getting better at lying and learning to play the Game of Thrones better than Ned and Robb, whose naivety and honesty got them killed and which Jon was specifically warned against emulating, could be part of that character development you were talking about?

      Well anything is possible, but we certainly haven’t seen Jon get any better at lying or manipulating people, have we? if so, when? Dany said that Jon “manipulated” her into fighting the AOTD with him, but Jon wasn’t lying about any of it or deceiving her in any way. He was 100% honest with her. There is no history of Jon lying for personal gain. It’s not in his character. Just look at what Jon did at the dragonpit a mere 3 episodes ago.

      Characters have to stay true to themselves. We can’t have Jon be who he is for 8 seasons only to turn heel at the last minute just so the audience can have an “oh no he din’t” moment.

      If there will be a break between Jon and Dany, it will be obvious to all parties involved. I don’t there will be any deception about it. At least, not on Jon’s part.

      Everyone who’s been deceitful in this show already had a history of it, and it felt organic when it happened. If Jon pulls some kind of Red Wedding scenario on Dany at the end then it would be tantamount to character sabotage at its worst, IMO.

      We’ll find out soon enough 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    259. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      What it basically comes down to is that Jon did what he needed to do, including lying, breaking vows and pretending to be something he’s not, in order to achieve his aim of ensuring his people’s survival.

      But Jon doesn’t need to manipulate and pretend to love Dany to get her to fight the Night King. Dany’s already on board for that. Dany’s not attacking or planning to attack the realm like Ygritte and Mance were. Jon doesn’t view Dany as a threat.

      Btw, I haven’t said anything about Northern independence. I’ve never suggested that Jon’s goal has been anything other than gaining Dany’s assistance in ensuring his people’s survival.

      I only mentioned Northern independence because I was really thinking about what possible benefit could come from Jon manipulating Dany and pretending to love her when Dany has already vowed to help defeat the Night King after seeing the AOTD for herself. Before they boatsexed. Before Dany declared she loved Jon. The only possible answer I can come up with is Northern independence and I don’t think that’s Jon’s first concern.

      Why would he need to manipulate Dany? How about because even after the death of Viserion and her pledge to defeat the Night King and Jon bending the knee she still had one eye on the Iron Throne, saying, “I can’t pretend that Cersei won’t take back half the country the moment I march north” at the Dragonpit.

      But Dany said that before the death of Viserion, before 706. Near the end of 706, Dany vows to fight the Night King and set aside her quest for the Iron Throne – not through any manipulation or lies on Jon’s part, but because Dany has seen it for herself. She goes to the Dragonpit meeting to propose a truce with Cersei. Dany has no intention of fighting Cersei before the AOTD is dealt with. Only after all that was when Jon and Dany boatsexed. I don’t see a need for Jon to manipulate here.

      Now in Season 8 we hear Dany declare that she put her ambitions aside to fight Jon’s war specifically because she loves him and trusts him. Not because the Night King killed Viserion… not because everybody agreed to fight together… not because she felt duty bound to defend the people of the Seven Kingdoms… but because Jon had won her trust and affection.

      When Dany said this, she was responding to Sansa’s suspicion that Dany seduced Jon into giving up the crown. Dany was convinced by Jon to fight the Night King – but not through any lies or manipulation on Jon’s part, he wasn’t pretending to be in love with her at this point, but because she saw the threat Jon was speaking about was true and she saw it for herself, she saw it was real and coming. And this happened well before the boat sex, before Jon bent the knee.

      Plus, this is obviously not just Jon’s war. It’s a war threatening to wipe them all out, a war Dany didn’t initially believe in until she saw it for herself. In 706, we see why Dany agreed to fight – she has seen the AOTD for herself, the Night King killed her dragon, and, “You have to see it to know.”

      Why would he take the risk? Because he’s certain everybody’s doomed without Dany’s assistance. Seems like a pretty good reason.

      And Dany has agreed to assist without any manipulation on Jon’s part. Jon didn’t have to pretend at anything to get her to this point. Dany agreed after she saw the AOTD for herself.

      And who says he would have any intention of Dany or anybody else ever finding out? Everything seemed to be going to plan until someone informed him that he was shagging his aunt.

      So was Jon going to pretend to love Dany forever?

      Now let’s assess the alternative analysis of Jon’s decision-making: 1. He needlessly gave up his crown, even after Dany pledged to fight the Army of the Dead, knowing full well that it’d infuriate his people, because he’d come to the conclusion that she was simply amazing; 2. He refused to lie to Cersei because he’s a doltish honourable fool (to paraphrase Robert & Jaime) who would risk the breakdown of a vital truce for no apparent reason; 3. He was simply so overcome with love and lust that he couldn;t resist jumping into bed with Dany, regardless of the consequences or how it might look to his family and his people.

      How does any of that make more sense or make Jon look any better than the theory that every decision Jon made was calculated to ensure Dany’s support and loyalty in the oncoming zombie apocalypse that he’s been fighting since Season 1?

      Because Jon didn’t need to manipulate anybody to get Dany on board.

      Jon saw Dany fighting for the realm, declaring she will defeat the Night King even after suffering personal loss. That’s going to win Jon over. That won Jon over to supporting Stannis, despite his neutrality and despite telling himself he shouldn’t. Yeah, I truly think Jon believes Dany would be a good queen for Westeros. And as the series progressed, Jon has become more and more about unity.

      And Jon’s reasons for not lying to Cersei make sense – who’s going to believe anything anybody says if all people are doing is lying? Who’s going to trust Jon again after he publicly swears to Cersei that he’ll remain neutral in the war between her and Dany but it turns out that was a lie?

      Jon went to bed with Dany well after he bent the knee. In this case, protecting the realm and falling in love with Dany doesn’t conflict like protecting the realm and falling in love with Ygritte conflicted. It conflicts with what the North wants but Northern independence isn’t essential to defeat the army of the dead and certainly might be compromised if they survive. And I think there’s a good narrative choice as to why Jon did this: to create some drama between Jon/Dany/and the North.

      Between Jon pissing the Northern lords off vs. the risk Jon would be taking if he were pretending to love Dany, was manipulating her, and just using her to get what her to do what she’s already agreed to … I think the latter risk is greater.

      I still can’t see what Jon gets out of manipulating and deceiving Dany when Dany’s already agreed to help him.

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    260. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Gah, amendment! I’m sorry!! I see that line is from 707, “I can’t forget what I saw north of the Wall. And I can’t pretend that Cersei won’t take back half the country the moment I march north.” I was thinking of another line from 705.

      Yeah, which is the whole reason she’s in King’s Landing for a truce, waiting to see if Cersei will agree or not. Once Cersei appears to agree, Dany seems satisfied. Even after learning the truth in 802, Dany doesn’t seem concerned about Cersei – she only resolves to fight Cersei after the battle is done. I’m not sure how Jon would need to pretend to love her in order to keep Dany on track? Jon didn’t have to pretend to love Dany, he didn’t have to lie to Dany, to get her to agree to fight the AOTD. Dany’s own observations got her to that point, showed her what they’re facing, and when she realized the truth to Jon’s words. I’m not sure how she’d need Jon’s love to convince her to do keep her promise after she saw the AOTD for herself?

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    261. Crap, another amendment. Jeeze. By “Dany doesn’t seem concerned about Cersei – she only resolves to fight Cersei after the battle is done,” I mean that Dany doesn’t appear to have any intention of fighting Cersei before the AOTD. Yes, Dany’s clearly pissed about Cersei.

      Sorry about that!!

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    262. The show made it very clear. We literally have Bran talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna saying “he loved her and she loved him” over the images of Jon and Daenerys… so those words are functioning as an omniscient narration. It doesn’t get anymore conclusive than that lol.

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    263. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      He better be an idiot than doing something like that to be called a genius..

      This is exactly what scares me the most..if jon or Starks do anything like this they will still be admired while the others will be slaughtered for doing something like this..

      Last week I saw how Sansa must backstab dany after the war with NK is over and now this one…

      Don’t you guys see these actions make them look like the very thing they were fighting against lannister and freys and boltons..or is it ok to do against dany..

        Quote  Reply

    264. Anyway, as far as I’m concerned, the “most important love story” in the show isn’t Jon and Dany’s, even if they are the main characters. It’s Brienne and Jaime’s. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    265. Just catching up on this article then going to re-watch episode and it’s then finally time for episode 3.

      Somehow I’ve not been up to speed with the various articles posted by Watchers this week so I’m really going in blind. These pics add to the excitement so here is my take:
      – Tyrion will start in the crypts but leave. Varys will stay and I think die.
      – Jon/Dany looking down. Honestly this really confuses me why they suddenly end up there given the AotD have arrived. Also we know Jon is involved in the fighting.
      – Jamie next to Brienne also surprises me given we know he makes it back to the battlements. He looks terrified here though so most likely they make a hasty retreat inside the castle, probably Pod falls outside.
      – Sansa/Arya. I think you have this spot on, almost certainly it’s coming from the first few minutes.
      – Sansa in the crypts, I’m confused here. Is she giving the evil eye to Missandei or Varys possibly?
      – Jon looks worried, something bad has happened. I suspect this is deep into the episode unlike the others.

      Let’s see how correct I am in a couple of hours!

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    266. ShameShameShame:
      Dragonbringer,

      I think the Dothraki deserved a more powerful place during endgame, for sure.One single Haka by a bloodrider would have endorsed Dany very effectively to, say, Lady Lyanna Mormont.Instead I fear they and their horses will have the most severe losses, after abandoning their entire culture to follow her.

      The Dothraki are savages though, they are far from “good guys”, they will very likely be wiped out before the end of the story in my opinion.

        Quote  Reply

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