Game of Owns: The Spoils of War

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Episode 378 – The Spoils of War
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A podcast meets to consider fire, fields, loot, and glory with the help of Westerosi rock icon Haley Bowery.


Seven thanks to Haley Bowery for her thoughtful work of ice and fire! Thank you for joining us!

When you play the game of owns, you win or you don’t write us your favorite parts of the new episode. Let us know below!

 

 

54 responses

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    1. Yeah I also felt you guys were strangely negative in this episode. It felt especially weird after so much gushing on the first 3 episodes. Just a strange vibe…

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    2. The Spoils of War was amazing, but there were some points I agreed with. Owns for this episode:

      Bronn – for ditching that gold in order to operate Qyburn’s scorpion AND rescuing Jaime from dragonfire.

      Arya – For showing everybody what No One has taught her.

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    3. I don’t understand why people are complaining about LF situation. it makes perfect sense that he is cornered based on the decisions he made:
      1. He chose to back the Bolton against the Lannisters and gave Sansa to them instead of giving her to Cersey. there was no way that he could forsee Cersey getting rid of the Faith the way she did.
      2. It made sense for him to make a move on Sansa right after saving John in the BoB. That was the highest point where he could get the most gratitude from Sansa. He couldn’t know how the trauma Sansa went through changed her (keep in mind that Ramsay was not a big player so LF had no reason to really know much about him)
      3. What can LF really do now? he has no option but to stay in the North. He cannot join Cersey cause he would be killed and has nothing to offer short of killing the Starks. LF couldn’t account for John becoming King in the North, or Bran and Arya coming back.

      so to all complaining, really tell me what can LF do differently that what he is doing in the show?

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    4. I don’t know why it hit them now that D&D have different style than GRRM. This was one of the best episodes in the show and to have in a way negative response to this episode was very strange. For seasons now this show has D&D’s spirit in it. What changed now?

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    5. Hi Game of Owns, love your podcasts. Though I don’t understand why you’re so dead sure that Bran has all the scoop on LF already. The word chaos triggered a memory from his visions, but I took it as Bran still needed time to sort out and process all there is to know about LF in his head.
      I’m hoping he has the wit to choose to focus his memory sorting efforts on LF at this stage of the game.
      I mean this creepy guy hanging around WF that no one is particularly comfortable with…. so get on it Bran. 🙂

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    6. Owns for this bitchin’ episode:

      Jaime for his “Oh brother” take on Bronn’s claim to have first smelled dead soldier shit at the age of five.

      The delighted smiles — for different reasons — on Brienne and Arya’s faces at the end of their great sparring scene.

      Arya’s next victim: that bug Bran has up his ass.

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    7. How the hell would you know how George RR Martin would do it? Insane to pan one of the very best episodes of the entire series. George still gets to finish his story if he so chooses. It is just a different story now.

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    8. mau,

      Yes. I love the books. However I definitely have some criticisms for the last two where I think he goes off the rails with storylines. However the details between books and show are so far diverged (not to mention show well beyond books) that to complain about the show not being the books is ridiculous. This Owns episode was full of annoyingly ridiculous commentary and I normally really like the Owns discussion.

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    9. It seems that these guys are finally realising that GRR Martin will never finish the books and instead of complaining about that, they prefer to lash out at D&D… So sad…

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    10. Reasons Dany attacked as she did (even though gold made it to KL)

      – Diminish Lannister troops Check
      – Destroy food supplies to shorten siege of KL. Check

      She also did it to get a W on the board and show power but the other two reasons will help her go forward now. Hypothetically her Dothraki could ravage through the countryside to Casterly Rock to round up the Unsullied if she wanted to do that now.

      And OWN to Dany for taking care of Drogon and standing her ground even though Jaime was charging full force

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    11. I think the comments about Martin not finishing the book series smack of ageism, and I have a good mind to complain to the government about them.

      Oh wait, the Republicans are in charge. Never mind.

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    12. Cersei’s Brain,

      Remember Bran’s vision of the shadow of a dragon over King’s Landing? I wonder if that will be Dany’s way of saying “In your face, Cersei!!” From a safe distance, I would hope. 😉

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    13. I also don’t get the LF in the North story line bashing. As if the LF’s and Varys’ of this world have never had setbacks. He is rattled. Bran’s rattling everybody these days. LF knows Arya knows he was at Harrenhal making nice with the Lannisters. And the only reason Sansa hasn’t said “Bye, Felicia” is because LF is Lord Protector, not Yohn Royce, who I suspect is there to keep an eye on LF and would also conveniently be there to offer Vale leadership and continued alliance when LF bites it. More importantly, Peter has the Lord of the Vale wrapped around his, well…. If Peter says Cousin Sansa’s being mean and Sweetrobin stomps his foot and tells the knights to come home, they go home.

      I’d argue we’re about to see Peter at his most chaotic self because he is in a corner. Fighting all those battles in his mind. One last grand stand before his final comeuppance. Chekov’s notes, er, gun, have yet to be wielded for starters. The aforementioned Harrenhal. Fasten your sword belts; it’s going to be a bumpy but fantastic ride.

      On a side note, Jon meeting Dragon properly is a nod to his heritage, but I don’t buy dragons are only nice to Targs (Valerians as a whole, really). Like direwolves, they’re ancient, semi-magical creatures who are highly intelligent. They’re friendly to friendlies, and hostile to enemies. What would be cool to see — if jon is to be a literal dragon rider and not just a metaphorical one — is Rhaegal land behind Jon and roar back at Drogon: “Step off my rider, bro.”

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    14. Littlefinger is the only real “drop the ball” moment of this spectacular season.

      Honestly, they can write in as many meaningless monologues and side-glances… I am 100% convinced they have no idea what his schemes or motivations are… They just want it to look like he has them.

      I agree with Sues review of episode 3… Nothing he says or does matters anymore.

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    15. I have nothing wrong with u guys doing a venting session.
      But I’ve had those moments as well.
      But it does make for not a good listen when ur criticism is just “I was sad GRRM couldn’t do it first”

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    16. Having listened to the entire episode, I don’t feel like the GOO crew were nearly as negative on the episode as some. Zack, in particular, gushed quite eloquently about the battle sequence, and both Hannah and Haley made many positive comments about the episode overall. Most critiques seemed to center around three things: 1) Littlefinger’s role this season, 2) Arya and Sansa’s reunion being a monumental moment that the show beat GRRM to, and 3) the dragonglass cave scene. So, fair enough. Let’s take those one at a time.

      1) I understand the frustration with not seeing Peak Littlefinger, but I think that’s by design on the show’s part. Littlefinger thrives in highly charged political cauldrons like King’s Landing and the Vale, where he has powerful, self-interested lords that he can betray, deceive, and play against one another. He’s out of his element in the North. He wound up there because he thought that he could control it via Sansa, but Sansa is wise to his games now. Ideally he would abandon ship, but he has nowhere else to go, and his desire to have Cat’s daughter is his Achilles heel.

      So Littlefinger needs another angle. That’s why he approached Bran, to see if he could be worked … but Bran’s the Three-Eyed Raven, and sees right through him. No dice. And Arya … forget it. She sees Littlefinger with clear eyes, and has no agenda that he can manipulate (ditto for Jon). Even a master craftsman needs tools to do his best work, and Littlefinger’s toolbox is less well-stocked in Winterfell than it would be anywhere else. He’s running out of levers to pull … and he may be running out of rope.

      The books contain a prophecy from the Ghost of High Heart in which a maiden slays a giant (like the Titan of Braavos, House Baelish’s traditional sigil) in a castle made of snow. Many think that prophecy refers to Sansa ultimately dispatching Littlefinger in Winterfell. I think that’s the direction in which both the show and the books (if GRRM ever gets there) are heading. Sansa is LF’s weakness in addition to being his pupil, and the student has now equaled the master, if not surpassed him.

      As the tweet that Zack cited in this episode said, the wolves are circling Littlefinger. He’s going to have to make a bold move if he wants to climb any higher. And while chaos is a ladder, remember what comes next in that particular speech. “Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them.”

      Littlefinger may be about to fall. If the argument is that this is not the most compelling end for such a masterful player, fair. But if the argument is that the character’s been lost, I don’t agree. To me, this is an eminently logical end to his story, assuming that it is the end, of course.

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    17. 2) As for Arya and Sansa’s reunion, I can understand the reservations about the show beating Martin to such a major development, even if I don’t share that particular point of view. It is slightly odd that this idea is being raised now, after what is being widely hailed as one of the best episodes of the series. But I suppose that the revelation that the show is going to beat GRRM to both several critical scenes and ultimately to the end (and that GRRM may never finish the series at all) hits at different times, and affects everyone differently. Perfectly understandable!

      For me, the crossing of this particular Rubicon came when I went in to ADWD expecting Tyrion to meet Daenerys … and I left that book bitterly disappointed. Then, in Season 5, the show gave us that meeting that I so eager for … and it was everything that I had ever hoped it would be. Better, actually! At that moment, Tyrion and Dany’s meeting in “Hardhome” became the definitive version of their first encounter in my mind.

      Then the show beat Martin to Jon’s resurrection … and that scene delivered in abundance. And then the Starks finally reclaimed Winterfell … and that scene delivered in abundance. And then Dany finally sailed for Westeros … and that scene delivered in abundance. So on and so on, to name only a few. And somewhere along the way, I lost what few sympathetic regrets I had about Martin not getting to tell his story first. It wasn’t malicious – it was just that the show was telling these particular stories at such a high level that I didn’t need anything else.

      The Arya and Sansa scene was another example of that. I’m not ashamed to say that for me, the definitive versions of Arya and Sansa are the ones embodied by Maisie Williams and Sophie Turner on the show. And so in my view, their reunion in this episode isn’t “fan fiction” in the slightest. It’s the definitive version – and not just because at the moment, it’s the only one that exists. Perhaps Martin will get to articulate his vision for the scene one day, but as far as I’m concerned, he has a very high bar to clear. And if he never gets, there, I’ll be perfectly fine with it, because what Game of Thrones gave me on Sunday night is more than enough.

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    18. I usually love this podcast and I listen to it every single week. But this week I was so disappointed. I loved this episode and I thought there were so many positive things to be appreciated and enjoyed about 7×04 and yet your recap this week only served to complain about the fact that we’re not living in a world where George R. R. Martin got his stuff together and finished the story ahead of the show. As a book reader and a show watcher I felt like you only nitpicked the smallest of details in an episode was overall really wonderful, instead of appreciate this incredible episode that was the result of so much character development and build up. It honestly kind of stole some of my joy over this episode.

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    19. 3) As for the scene with Dany and Jon in the dragonglass cave … I suppose this one is more subjective than the rest. I just happen to completely disagree. I thought that scene was beautiful and highly effective – it was one of my favorite scenes in the entire episode! I thought everything worked. The way it was staged, shot, and directed. Kit and Emilia’s chemistry. The Children’s inscriptions, which have been set up carefully and abundantly throughout the series. I had no problems with the pacing leading up to it, or how we got there – it all felt perfectly natural. If it didn’t work for you, it didn’t work – fair is fair. But I thought it was dynamite.

      (I also loved the scene on the beach where Dany asks Jon for advice, which the GOO crew all showered with praise).

      On a more substantive level, I don’t buy the criticism that Stannis and Melisandre should’ve known about the dragonglass cave. Stannis knew there was dragonglass on Dragonstone, but he didn’t know that it could kill White Walkers until Sam told him in Season 5. Furthermore, Stannis Baratheon doesn’t strike me as a man whose list of hobbies includes casual spelunking. As for Melisandre, she was far too busy barbecuing people on the beach to go exploring … and she didn’t pivot towards the true threat in the North until Davos showed her and Stannis the letter from the Wall at the end of Season 3. I see no reason to believe that either of them knew that this particular cavern was there, or why it was significant even if they did.

      Whew, that was a lot! Lengthy though it was, I hope that rebuttal comes off as fair. I did genuinely enjoy the discussion, so thank you, GOO! As always!

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    20. George,

      Agreed! Really strange vibe and it was a lot of wasted time spent complaining. There was so much to cover in a review of this episode and this podcast just did not deliver.

      Also – would it be possible for your part 2 podcasts to be released on Fridays?

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    21. Jared,

      You have to admit, LF’s plans and motivations feel very very very paper thin. Compared to previous seasons where it felt like he had schemes and plots that had been in the works for years.. Complex and intriguing schemes.
      The intrigue of the character has been lost.

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    22. HelloThere,

      I agree that his plans feel thin. But again, I think that’s intentional, not a creative oversight. I think that he’s out of his element in the North. He’s trying to get up to his usual tricks of whispering in the ears of powerful people and setting them against one another, but the Northerners are a different breed, and the person who should be most susceptible to his influence (Sansa) is resisting him so far. He has the Knights of the Vale, of course, but his control over them is tenuous with Robin so far away, and Yohn Royce would love to see him thrown overboard. He has to be more cautious – or perhaps more reckless – than he would ideally like.

      His motivations are the same as ever. He wants power- eventually, ideally, the Iron Throne. And he wants Sansa to rule by his side. But by admitting that to her in the Season 6 finale, he ceded power to her. It was a moment of weakness for him. It may cost him dearly.

      I agree that at this point in his arc, the character isn’t nearly as compelling to watch. And because he was so eminently watchable when he was in his ideal environment, that’s disappointing. But I’m OK with it, because it’s the decisions that he’s made that have removed him from his ideal environment and placed him on hostile terrain. Littlefinger has bet everything on Sansa. That may have been wise at one point, but he’s compromised by his obsession with her. She’s backed him into a corner. So now, to paraphrase the Mockingbird himself, one of two things will happen. Either this cornered creature will find an opening and strike a deadly blow … or he will finally get got, and all his troubles will come to an end. Given his effective track record, one can never rule out the former possibility, but I believe that the show is setting us up for the latter.

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    23. Jared:
      HelloThere,

      I agree that his plans feel thin. But again, I think that’s intentional, not a creative oversight. I think that he’s out of his element in the North. He’s trying to get up to his usual tricks of whispering in the ears of powerful people and setting them against one another, but the Northerners are a different breed, and the person who should be most susceptible to his influence (Sansa) is resisting him so far. He has the Knights of the Vale, of course, but his control over them is tenuous with Robin so far away, and Yohn Royce would love to see him thrown overboard. He has to be more cautious – or perhaps more reckless – than he would ideally like.

      His motivations are the same as ever. He wants power- eventually, ideally, the Iron Throne. And he wants Sansa to rule by his side. But by admitting that to her in the Season 6 finale, he ceded power to her. It was a moment of weakness for him. It may cost him dearly.

      I agree that at this point in his arc, the character isn’t nearly as compelling to watch. And because he was so eminently watchable when he was in his ideal environment, that’s disappointing. But I’m OK with it, because it’s the decisions that he’s made that have removed him from his ideal environment and placed him on hostile terrain. Littlefinger has bet everything on Sansa. That may have been wise at one point, but he’s compromised by his obsession with her. She’s backed him into a corner. So now, to paraphrase the Mockingbird himself, one of two things will happen. Either this cornered creature will find an opening and strike a deadly blow … or he will finally get got, and all his troubles will come to an end. Given his effective track record, one can never rule out the former possibility, but I believe that the show is setting us up for the latter.

      He’s the reverse of Ned. Ned, the ultimate Northman, went South to King’s Landing in season one. There he was a fish out of water and was destroyed by the political animal that is Littlefinger. Now Littlefinger is in the North and he’s the “fish out of water” that will be destroyed by the Starks. His politics are useless against a Cersified Sansa and the magical element that he couldn’t possibly account for, an all-seeing Tree God that has the body of Bran and Arya turned into a magical waterdancer/assassin/ faceless woman.

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    24. Terrible owns and you guys just complain for the sake of complaining now trying to fit in like ya’ll know the story or are better experts to the art. Sure, I see it in other entertainment subs from video games to movies. Everyone is a marketing expert now or writing expert straight from their living rooms lol

      To those wondering about littlefinger and his schemes not working well this is what it looked liked when Robb went to the Riverlands. You can cry that Robb Stark was a great strategist and he would never do this or that but we know what his demise was.
      Littlefinger gambled on Sansa because she was so naive at one point and looks like it’s backfiring. It doesn’t matter if its in the boring Vale from the books or Winterfell but there will come a point he’ll lose it all and die. How soon? I don’t know but hopefully soon enough.

      Horrible Owns episode 3 out of 10 rating

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    25. mau,

      But I could also understand why that wouln’t feel interesting to watch, because Ned felt so lost there, just like LF is now. But remember it seemed like Ned was going to win before he lost 😉

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    26. Not sure if my comments got deleted or it just didn’t go through but I just want to say this was not a very good Owns episode. The podcast didn’t make sense and the complaining felt like for sake of complaining.
      As for littlefinger we’ve all seen our characters hit their low from Cersei Tyrion the Starks, Tyrells etc… Why should littlefinger be any different?
      It fits more realistic Littlefinger “skills” not working properly in the North or this late in the game. Will he bounce back? I don’t know but from reading the books and watching the show it’s all about patience

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    27. George,

      I totally agree. LF was so sure of his powers of manipulation that he didn’t factor in how different northern people are. Jon’s kingship was the first indication that things aren’t going to play out like he wants them to. Jon throttling him was probably a shock too. He thought that mentioning his love for Sansa may lead to Jon asking for further assistance from the Vale in return for Sansa’s hand. That was a huge miscalculation. This is where Sansa proves she is better at the game than he is. She has had to learn and adapt to each location and situation. LF is still playing his kings landing game.

      My own would go to See Davos for being everyone’s embarrassing grandad and Bronn for channelling Chief Brody.

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    28. I have to agree with the majority of comments here.

      About Littlefinger particularly, look at where he is. His skill set is almost useless in the North, where they see themselves as a species separate from Southerners. They’re not interested in playing the game of thrones. They want peace for their people, and to survive Winter. He has very little to work with. Like every other character in this series, he isn’t infallible or immortal. His only value is being Lord Protector of the Vale. The North certainly doesn’t value his scheming and slithering. His greed and ambition led him to the one place that would serve him the comeuppance he deserves. A wise man would take pause after Bran’s comment and Arya’s staredown. But Littlefinger is a narcissist, not a wise man. Live by the scheme, die by the scheme.

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    29. It’s always fascinated me about the contradiction of praising Martin’s story for realism but treating all the top schemers(Baelish, Varys, and to a lesser extent so far, book Doran) like super geniuses who see and plan for everything. Both book and show Varys have had their plans blow up multiple times and book Doran spends more time cleaning up the messes his family makes than enacting some master plan to rule Westeros.

      From the end of season 6 I saw LF’s story as a kind of inversion of Ned’s season 1 story. The things that made him so formidable in the South don’t work in the North. I can respect people not thinking that is a good story, but the constant going on about it is getting old.

      Also maybe some poor word choices with criticisms maybe. Saying the Arya/Sansa reunion somehow cheapened Martin’s work is grossly unfair to everyone involved. And I say this as someone who would not be watching the show if the book series were finished or near finished. Also saying Arya was mocking Brienne was just a bad read of the scene in my opinion. It was obviously a mix of confidence in herself on Arya’s part as well as respect for Brienne and wanting the same in return.

      This is one of my favorite GOT podcasts so I was very puzzled listening to this installment.

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    30. George,

      This is an excellent observation! Well said!

      Silent Sister,

      Exactly. It’s tempting to see Littlefinger as this eternally Machiavellian genius, because he’s been so effective for so long. But no Machiavellian genius is eternal. Littlefinger is human and he’s fallible, just like every other character in this story. And when human, fallible characters find themselves in situations that they don’t understand, or situations where their skill sets don’t fit their circumstances, they stumble and fall. Sometimes they recover, and climb higher than ever (Cersei, Dany, Jon, etc.). Other times, they pay for that mistake with their life (Ned, Robb, Oberyn, etc.). Littlefinger is not immune to that – he’s just managed to keep himself out of that adverse situation longer than most, but now, he’s somewhat stuck. Time will on which side his coin will fall.

      As I said, I’m sympathetic to those who think that Littlefinger is less compelling to watch than he used to be. I just think it makes narrative sense as to why. Schemes and chaos were Littlefinger’s bread and butter, and when he isn’t sewing them successfully, he doesn’t have the natural charisma of say, Robb Stark, to keep us enthralled even as he slowly falls. As a result, after looming so large for so long, he now looks rather small. But that’s a feature of the story, not a bug.

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    31. Thanks for the ep!

      My two Owns go to Dany for making a decision that is not burning whole cities to the ground. It’s a low threshold I know, but considering Olenna’s advice, well, I feared the worst. And the other to Jaime for the charge with the spear. It was visually stunning for me.

      Also my other special Own goes to Maisie. I know she’s not a character but honestly, she rocked every freaking scene she was in and Winterfell is better for her being there.

      Jared,

      I see you picked the much hated “fan-fiction” term one has used in the podcast. But it would be fair to mention that the commentator who used the word “fan-fiction” to describe how she felt sounded almost embarrassed and extremely reluctant to call it that. It was the commentator who run the podcast (the gentleman) who suggested the word anyway. It’s worth mentioning also that the same person who felt so sad Martin didn’t get to say it first specifically said it was the first time she felt that. Anytime a reveal happened before she was glad the show was doing its own thing and moving forward. No one bashed Benioff and Weiss or lashed at anything.

      Honestly to read some of the comments here…

      Also, the cave of exposition to be used for putting two characters together where they are meant to develop sexual attraction, they specifically say they understand why it happened. The writers have a set number of scenes to make that relationship happen and putting them in a confined space usually works just didn’t for them. They also point out that Dany asking for Jon’s opinion on the beach of what would he do (?) was ten times more powerful and it worked better than anything else so far. All of them agree that there’s a shitload of potential between these two characters to get them there.

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    32. TormundsWoman,

      You’re right, it is fair to say that. Please understand, I wasn’t intending to call anyone out. I did pick up on everything you mentioned about that exchange from listening to the episode, from Zack’s gentle, thoroughly non-malicious prompting of the term, to Hannah’s reluctance to employ it. I don’t think that the two of them were bashing the show or Benioff and Weiss in any way – I know that the GOO crew love the show (I’ve been listening to them talk about it for five years). They’re working through their feelings about it in real time, as are we all!

      I wish I could have avoided even mentioning the term myself. I personally loathe it, quite apart from anything related to this specific discussion, and feel a strong twinge of annoyance whenever anyone uses while talking about the show moving beyond the books. By strict definition, I’m of the opinion that being an officially licensed adaptation that GRRM has consented to and profits from automatically disqualifies the show as a whole from being labeled as such, but I don’t like it even when people use it to talk about individual divergences, expansions, or choices with which they disagree. That’s because far too often, the term has been laughably misused and grotesquely overused, particularly by people who are infinitely less eloquent, insightful, and fair-minded in their opinions about the show than the GOO crew. That was not the case in this conversation. I understood what Zack and Hannah were driving at. It just so happens that on the particular point of Arya and Sansa’s reunion, I have a different opinion. And so I expressed it.

      As for the Dany and Jon scene in the dragonglass cave, that scene was far more subjective. For me, the scene worked like gangbusters on absolutely every level. GOO had some reservations, even while acknowledging that it served its necessary purpose. Totally valid and fair! And we all loved the scene with Dany and Jon on the beach, so there’s common ground to be foun

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    33. I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who felt the same way. I’m usually fine with criticism, even if I don’t agree with it. But this kind of felt like overkill, even for me. Your other episodes are great though, and this is one of my favorite GoT podcasts.

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    34. Thank you, GOO for the wonderful insights, but heaps upon heaps of thanks to the GOO community for such wonderful continuation. Y’all have provided a wonderful read this beautiful morning. Maybe, you could help me complete some observations that could be just me hat weaving too much tinfoil:
      The first time Brienne and Pod met Arya, she had just lost all hope in the Vale. Their first conversation was about training with a little thrown in about their fathers IMS. We know how that ended.
      The next time Brienne sees Arya she is pushing Bran across Winterfell’s courtyard followed by Sansa. Pod whispers about honor, duty and pride quite similar to the way he whispered “that is Sandor Clegane. The Hound” way back in the Vale. LF is watching from above with no idea who Arya is, yet.
      Here is where Reynolds wrap has convinced me that I am a genius: Breinne and Pod are sparring, “Don’t lunge! Don’t go where the enemy leads you! And, dont…….” Enter Arya, blah blah ” you swore a vow to protect both of Caitlyn Stark’s daughters…” Revealing to LF who she is, sideways glance to Sansa b/c she hadn’t shared that info. Epic water dancing v. Hound style. Sansa stalks off acting all season 1. Me thinks LF should have listened to Brienne; don’t lunge at this chance to create chaos. Don’t follow Sansa cuz she is only feigning being wounded so you will pursue. LF has no fallback position. Yonn Rhoyce leads the army of the Vale and LF accused him of betraying Sansa to the Bolton’s.
      Likely, me reading/hoping too much, but, I truly would like to see LF outmaneuver himself.

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    35. I love your podcasts and even enjoy listening to critical observations. But I’m surprised at the grumpiness here. It felt very book readers vs. show watchers, which I’ve always found to be one of the more infuriating parts of the GoT fandom. I never really got that vibe before from your podcasts.

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    36. I have to admit, I’m beginning to get a little disappointed by the analysis presented on this podcast. Although I agree somewhat with the Littlefinger complaints (that the show isn’t using him appropriately anymore) having two of three hosts complaining about how they don’t like ‘battles’ and then spending part of the time talking about said battle in regards to how sexy Jaime and Bronn are…? I think the hosts are possibly the wrong commentators of the episode.

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    37. Jared:
      TormundsWoman,

      I wish I could have avoided even mentioning the term myself. I personally loathe it, quite apart from anything related to this specific discussion, and feel a strong twinge of annoyance whenever anyone uses while talking about the show moving beyond the books. By strict definition, I’m of the opinion that being an officially licensed adaptation that GRRM has consented to and profits from automatically disqualifies the show as a whole from being labeled as such, but I don’t like it even when people use it to talk about individual divergences, expansions, or choices with which they disagree. That’s because far too often, the term has been laughably misused and grotesquely overused, particularly by people who are infinitely less eloquent, insightful, and fair-minded in their opinions about the show than the GOO crew. That was not the case in this conversation. I understood what Zack and Hannah were driving at. It just so happens that on the particular point of Arya and Sansa’s reunion, I have a different opinion. And so I expressed it.

      I think people are severely overestimating their ability to pick apart and distinguishing George’s Major Plot points vs. so-called TV show “fanfiction”. D&D have repeatedly said that while certain things would be different, “certain key plot points would be the same.” While George himself has said “There will be Spoilers. It is was it is.” I take them at their word. That was the whole point of the Endgame discussion that D&D had with George and HBO executives back in 2013, when it became apparent the show would surpass the books.

      For example, I expect the Field of Fire 2.0 to happen in the books, but instead being between Dany and Dothrakis vs. Fagon and the Tarlys. Since Fake Aegon was cut from the show I expect that a lot of his plot has been absorbed by Cersei and the Lannisters (and thus the mention of the Golden Company by Cersei in this episode)

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    38. I would like to defend the GOO crew from all the bashing for a second. It’s an initial opinion they had to watching the show on their podcast, so it can take a turn to negative town if they want it too. I think after a few re-watches and some the next podcast it’ll lighten up a bit and won’t seem so harsh. The reality is a lot of the show now is “fan fiction” it’s officially licensed fan fiction but fan fiction none the less. Stannis is nowhere near Shireen to ok burning her, Bran is never leaving that cave etc. I for one enjoy the show more knowing most of this will play out differently when Winds comes out, but am ok when someone feels bummed out. Zack and Hannah please don’t temper you’re reaction to the episodes because some think it’s to negative, most of us want it honest.

      Nick Hartley does not sow!

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    39. Nick Hartley:
      I would like to defend the GOO crew from all the bashing for a second. It’s an initial opinion they had to watching the show on their podcast, so it can take a turn to negative town if they want it too. I think after a few re-watches and some the next podcast it’ll lighten up a bit and won’t seem so harsh. The reality is a lot of the show now is “fan fiction” it’s officially licensed fan fiction but fan fiction none the less. Stannis is nowhere near Shireen to ok burning her, Bran is never leaving that cave etc. I for one enjoy the show more knowing most of this will play out differently when Winds comes out, but am ok when someone feels bummed out. Zack and Hannah please don’t temper you’re reaction to the episodes because some think it’s to negative, most of us want it honest.

      Nick Hartley does not sow!

      Nah they were ridiculous on the podcast. Another thing is that they try to Downplay the cave and say wouldn’t Stannis and Mel know about the cave it’s just right there.
      Reminder…. Stannis did know and mentioned it to Sam but he didn’t give a shit about Dragon Glass. How far did he go in the cave we don’t know but it was unimportant to him.
      Stuff like that just adds to how horrible the podcast was as if they weren’t trying to pay attention and their mind was elswewhere like “Oh George”

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    40. Own to Dickon for making damn sure Jamie stops f-ing up his name.

      Future own to whichever character refers to the Spoils of War battle by D&Ds name. “She won the loot train battle”.

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    41. Nick Hartley:
      I would like to defend the GOO crew from all the bashing for a second. It’s an initial opinion they had to watching the show on their podcast, so it can take a turn to negative town if they want it too. I think after a few re-watches and some the next podcast it’ll lighten up a bit and won’t seem so harsh. The reality is a lot of the show now is “fan fiction” it’s officially licensed fan fiction but fan fiction none the less. Stannis is nowhere near Shireen to ok burning her, Bran is never leaving that cave etc. I for one enjoy the show more knowing most of this will play out differently when Winds comes out, but am ok when someone feels bummed out. Zack and Hannah please don’t temper you’re reaction to the episodes because some think it’s to negative, most of us want it honest.

      Nick Hartley does not sow!

      Hmm…
      I think the “hold the door” thing shows us that Bran, contrary to what people thought, will indeed leave the cave…

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