Game of Thrones Season 5 Episode 9 – The Dance of Dragons – Open Chat

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Game of Thrones Season 5, Episode 9: “The Dance of Dragons”

Writers: David Benioff & D.B. Weiss
Director: David Nutter
Runtime: 53 minutes
Content Warnings: TV-MA: Adult Content, Adult Language
Synopsis: Stannis confronts a troubling decision. Jon returns to the Wall. Mace visits the Iron Bank. Arya encounters someone from her past. Dany reluctantly oversees a traditional celebration of athleticism.
Video Preview: Episode 9 Preview on Youtube

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Sue the Fury
Susan Miller, Editor in Chief of WatchersOnTheWall.com

744 Comments

  1. Hype. Hype. Hype.

    Hopefully this is a great episode. They have some great climactic material to work with. It may not reach the levels of “Hardhome”, but it doesn’t really need to. Personally, as long as Dorne at least climaxes well and the scene at Daznak’s is well realized, I’ll be happy.

  2. Ravyn,

    So much to pack in so little time, right? Maybe some of what I predict will happen this episode will happen in episode ten. A few hours and we’ll know.

  3. Ravyn:
    A man needs more than 53 minutes.

    A man also needs more then 10 episodes per year. A man would be foolish to ask the gods for more.

  4. Arthur, i answer you here.

    Then why showing that lovable scene with Stannis and the “you’re my daughter” speech? I really can’t get it. The only explenation is that he will at least try to save her. I really really hope that summary is a fake, otherwise Dorne won’t be the only bad written storyline.
  5. For book readers, looking the synopsis is pretty clear what will happen…except in the Stannis case.

    I’ll quote two people:
    “We’re not really beyond the books yet” Benioff & Weiss (they will not spoil the books in the 5th season)
    http://mashable.com/2015/03/24/game-of-thrones-season-5-producers/

    “Half my army is made up of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder.”
    Book Stannis, A Dance with Dragons

  6. Javi from Los Siete Reinos,

    And in the next Stannis-related chapter after the “pray harder” thing, he actually relents and lets them sacrifice some criminals, because the weather is getting awful and they hope the Lord of Light will clear it. But oookay.

  7. Blob,

    HOW is it badly written if they foreshadowed it all season,that’s exactly what that scene was about,foreshadowing how

    Stannis will have to make the most difficult decision in his life by murdering the daughter that he loves for the good of the million of others,that’s why he murdered Renly,wanted to do the same with Gendry. I feel for some reason when people don’t like how a certain storyline goes say it’s badly written,which is not the case here .
  8. The weirdest thing is that this has been set up for a LONG time. They’ve been teasing the whole Mel,Stannis,Shireen.Selyse conflict since season 3, and Mel told Selyse that Shireen needed to be brought along in season 4.
    This is not a last minute decision that has been made, they have been setting it up for a long time :'(

    I don’t want to see a little girl burned. GRRM already has enough tragedy in his novels. If this doesn’t happen in the books (which I doubt it will considering the separation of him and Shireen), I do question their decision to bog us down in so much darkness. They have to make it REALLY clear that Stannis needs to do this or everyone is doomed (ugh that felt wrong to write)

  9. Blob,

    Because D&D want you to know that Stannis does love his daughter and he does know it’s wrong to do what Mel asks but he does it anyway, because he is a fanatic asshole that will lie, cheat, steal and burn his own children alive to sit on the Iron Throne.

  10. I don’t get the people screaming ‘character assassination!’ As others have said, it’s been foreshadowed for a LONG time. Show and book Stannis have been willing to kill and burn anyone, even his relatives, if it meant making him king and “saving the realm.”

    This is the natural progression in his arc, and it’s been set up and foreshadowed for a LONG time. I understand that it’s hard for Stannis fans, but c’mon. I’ve been preparing myself for this for a long time.

    Now maybe the spoilers are fake, and Stannis becomes a hero and puts his family over the good of the entire realm. But I doubt it.

  11. I love the title. It really gets me excited !

    Today I thought about something that could happen : a speculation based on nothing but my watching of the series and some spoiler I’ve seen on the net

    What if the synopsis of episode 10 : “Dany is surrounded by strangers” means someting else than the Harpies or Dothrakis ? I think Drogon could bring Dany to Valyria (as we saw that he quite likes going around down there) and it could then refer to the Stone Men. Dothraki and Harpies are no complete strangers to Dany whereas the Stone Men totally are. And I think showing Drogon in the Jorah/Tyrion scene in ep 5 have another purpose than just decoration.

    If so, maybe a scene in ep 10 could contain a big reveal on the link between dragons and greyscale as opposed to WW ; as well as Dany visiting her past before truly getting to Westeros. Would’nt it be great ?

  12. I don’t think Stannis will burn Shireen. We know Mel shows up at the Wall by Episode 10, I don’t see her leaving Stannis so soon after he does what she wants him to do.

    I feel like this conflict is being introduced so that Stannis can decide on his own that he won’t kill innocents for the purposes of winning the war. In S3 it was Davos’s decision to free Gendry and defy the king. This is an opportunity for Stannis to have that moment of agency and decide that enough is enough.

    I also think it just makes more sense narratively if Stannis refuses Mel. If he burns Shireen, it will feel kind of similar to his past decisions, especially his choice to have Gendry killed. But the breaking off of his relationship to Mel would be a new direction for that storyline (for as long as it lasts…)

  13. I’ve waited for Dany’s big moment for so long, it just sucks it’s gonna get overshadowed by *that* other scene.
    Anyway, I’m still excited for the episode.

  14. HelloThere:

    Brandon:

    Yeah, it was foreshadowed for me in such bright, neon letters this season, that I would have predicted almost the exact sequence of events for this episode. I can even predict what’s gonna happen to this storyline in 5.10, and that will cause another meltdown amongst Stannis stans. Also the Winterfell storyline to come in 5.10 has been foreshadowed.

    Stannis has always been a rigid fanatic. He is completely blinded by the fact that he has to sit on the Iron Throne. The entirety of his arc from Season 2 onwards was all about this.

  15. Balerion The Cat,

    Fortunately Dany’s moment will be overshadowed only for book readers who will complain about Stannis characterization. I’m pretty sure that all the Unsullied will remember Dany’s scene most.

  16. Balerion The Cat,

    Which only shows how ridiculous this fandom is,how is Dany

    riding Drogon

    ,a moment that we have been waiting for 5 years,lesser than that scene,i just really hate this fandom sometimes,hopefully we are proven wrong but i doubt it .

  17. Is it possible that Daario is working for Littlefinger and that he is behind the SotH attacks for the purpose of keeping Dany in Meeren until he is ready for her in Westeros?

  18. urangutan21,

    Well, in the case of book readers, it makes sense. One of those scenes happens in the books; they may comment on how well it was done, but that’s about it. A change from the books creates more discussion, naturally.

    Of course, for Unsullied Dany flying on Drogon will be a greater deal.
  19. Hodor Targaryen,

    That’s what I have been telling my friends. Look at the long character arc of Stannis. Having him sacrifice a family member for the Iron Throne is a repeat of season 2 and 3. The Gendry situation in particular works to establish this moment of Stannis coming to his own realization, choosing the life of an innocent individual over the realm. And refusing to go through with it would be a more logical breakup point for Stannis and Mel than going through with it and Mel saying, “Whoops, wrong guy. See ya,” and heading to the Wall. Now, Stannis burning Shireen could happen; it’s been foreshadowed, yes, but the conflict has been foreshadowed, not the final decision.

    Also, has anyone bothered asking why Jon and the Wildlings stopped on the north side of the Wall?

  20. Anyone thinking that Shireen being burned alive, if it happens, will be a minor deal to non-book readers is insane. The pointless sadism talk will ramp up exponentially (and though I’ve defended the show from those charges in the past, I would verge on agreeing if this happens).

  21. Maybe Stannis docked his ships on the north side of the wall IDK, who cares.

    It’s not a big deal, should be looked over, it’ll give us a more dramatic scene of them walking up to the tunnel.

  22. 1. Stannis-related news
    2. Djokovic lost the Roland Garros final

    I’ll have trouble sleeping tonight; I think I may be needing some therapy.

  23. Brandon,

    EXACTLY! This is a moment that the show has been building to since “Blackwater”.

    Stannis didn’t listen to Melisandre then, suffered a crushing defeat, and vowed to never stray from her advice again. Melisandre is now advising Stannis that the only way to win this battle- his last shot at ever winning the Iron Throne- is to do this horrible deed. He was initially repulsed by the mere thought of it, but is now being faced with a desperate situation where his army is either about to desert him or die buried in the snow.

    Just because you don’t happen to like a story or because it doesn’t develop in the same exact way as it does in the source material doesn’t mean that it’s poorly written. This makes sense.

  24. JaimenotJamie,

    Yea, the question will not be about whether its in character or not for Stannis.
    That isn’t what bothers me.

    What bothers me is that, for the first time. I am beginning to agree with the “pointless sadism” argument. Not exactly pointless, but at some point, we get the message. This isn’t about happy endings or the hero winning.
    But that doesn’t mean we want to get emotionally attached to young girls in order to see them get burned to death.

  25. Mr Fixit: 2. Djokovic lost the Roland Garros final

    Yeah…and Djokovic lost to a “Stannis”! 🙂

    Now, if only Djokovic were Ramsay!

  26. Bear in mind that in some versions of that Greek myth the girl survives. In still others, she sacrifices herself willingly, heroically, and nobly for the greater good. As yet another alternative, the Bible’s Abraham ends up NOT sacrificing Isaac. His willingness to do so was enough to impress Jehovah.

    Whatever happens, we should remember that the people in this tale are us but not us. There might not be magic or Gods of wrath in our world, but there are in theirs.

    All this time we’ve been told that NOT believing in the supernatural is the true folly. The characters find themselves having to confront its reality more and more. As Jon did at Hardhome, Stannis might have to with R’Hllor.

    If he ignores R’Hllor, could that end up being his downfall?

    Meh, whatever.

    What I want to see: Stannis drives his sword through Mel’s heart, withdraws a flaming Lightbringer, and plunges it into Ramsay’s mouth. He then embraces his daughter as his men shout ‘Stannis! Stannis!

  27. Wow, if all the predictions are true…

    This episode is going to have one of the biggest emotional lows, followed by one of the biggest emotional highs of the series to date…

    It’s going to be a fucking emotional rollercoaster ride for sure. Tears of sadness and anger followed by tears of excitement and joy.

    IDK if we are ready for this…..

  28. Brandon:
    JaimenotJamie,

    How is Shireen being burned any more ‘sadist’ than Talisa, Robb, and Cat being slaughtered at a wedding?

    Well – there’s a difference between your enemies killing you, and you willingly executing your sweet innocent daughter for starters. Also, there was a specific plot mechanism from that event. The war, and the Starks involvement, was the central theme and plot of the story. That event served as a springboard for everything which followed. IF Shireen burns alive, we will see if it has a similar impact, but I think not. Stannis’ storyline just doesn’t interact enough with others for there to be the same plot reverberations.

    Subjectively, it seems to me to be this – one (RW) was plot driven. The violence was tangential to what it did to the overall story and what flowed from it. If this happens, it will seem to be about shock and sadism first, plot second.

    (And this is from someone who is neither a book purist, nor a critic of D&D/the show).

  29. It’s hard for me to imagine them creating a scene where they tie up a little girl, she begs for her life, and then they set her on fire…but we’ll see. Maybe Stannis stops it but she burns in Ramsay’s attack anyway?

  30. JaimenotJamie,

    This is exactly how i feel.
    Im a book lover and a show lover and still will be.
    This episode is going to be a roller coaster of emotions.

    But any work of art that makes you feel is better than something that makes you not care.

  31. i do hope HBO is more strict with its views and previews and screeners or whatevers from next season …

    looks like now episode 10 promo is leaked ..

  32. dragonbringer,

    I was hugely relieved by it actually.

    I know it’s impossible to keep anything secret these days, but this season has been ridiculous with the leaks.

  33. Do we know for certain if the episode ends with Dany flying off ? Because if so, I have a crazy/ridiculous but nonetheless interesting argument for why Shireen might not be burned.
    Can you imagine the burning of a young girl being placed anywhere but at the tail end of an episode ? because I can’t. Dramatically, it doesn’t make sense to me. Who will be able to give a fuck about Jorah fighting random guys in a pit and SOH attacking after they have just seen Shireen burn ? Who will be able to concentrate on anything after that point ? How will Daznak’s Pit have anywhere near the impact it needs to have after that ? I just can’t really see it, which is what leads me to believe that if the episode ends with Dany, then Shireen doesn’t burn.
    I know, it’s crazy, but that’s just my perception

  34. The anti-stannis feeling in here is appalling. I guess D&D’s mission is accomplished.

  35. JP Dayne:
    The anti-stannis feeling in here is appalling.I guess D&D’s mission is accomplished.

    I was anti-Stannis before the series began…

  36. dragonbringer,

    Thank you, and personally, I will take that as a good sign. If anyone KNOWS for certain what happens to Shireen, or in anyway has more than just speculation and IMDB leaks, don’t tell me.

  37. JaimenotJamie,

    I don’t agree with it being sadism at all and I also disagree that the plot would come second.

    Melisandre wanted to burn Shireen since season 4 lol
    She even told Selyse to that The Lord needs Shireen Baratheon and convinced her to bring Shireen with them

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45fqk-CqV_Y

    nobody can watch this scene and say that Melisandre burning Shireen is shocking or surprising

  38. So many possibilities, so little time. 53 minutes?!?!? Surely that’s not enough.

    I’m equally interested in Meereen. My guess is Dany waves bye-bye to a stadium full of carnage and hysteria (and gets a dragon’s-eye view of Essos). If so, probably next week’s episode will show Tyrion picking up the pieces and restoring order. He’ll also deal with Hizdahr, if Hizzie isn’t already charcoal. That episode may also show Dany and Drogon in the Dothraki sea. I *hope* tonight she has the foresight to officially name Tyrion her Hand of the Queen. Otherwise, it will be harder for him to do what he has to do.

    One other thing I so look forward to–Meryn Trant finally getting the Point. The Starks are on the prowl once more.

  39. ok. I don’t read show spoilers. I flipping hate them.

    While technically no one has posted the spoiler, the way everyone is talking about this particular event is definitely revealing what the spoiler is. Please stop doing this without posting a warning! K. thx.

    Below I’m going to talk about this plotline in response to the various comments above, not with any specific knowledge of spoilers, but assuming the people above me have been spoiled. So, there’s your warning. Also, there will be book spoilers.

    It seems ludicrous to me, based only on the information we have seen this season and in the books, that Stannis would completely willingly burn Shireen. The last we saw of him, he had outright rejected Melisandre’s proposal and even tossed her out of his tent in disgust. Previous to that, we saw that he actually loves her, which we aren’t specifically shown in the books. It drives me absolutely insane that every speculation about this event until these spoilers apparently leaked (first I heard of it) was in agreement with me that obviously Stannis would not burn his daughter willingly. Yet, now that spoilers have leaked people are saying that obviously he would. Furthermore, in the books, we know that Stannis is not even with Shireen. Many people, for a long time, have speculated that it will be a Selyse/Melisandre combo, or Mel acting alone, that will sacrifice Shireen.
    In the end, it’s the same old bullshit: whatever ends up happening, people will suddenly change their opinions and now that decision is “the only logical outcome”. Like, how OBVIOUSLY the only way they could have gone once Sansa was in Winterfell was her being raped, because reasons… Even though before there only a very small minority of people had predicted that particular outcome. Same goes here. A week ago everyone is saying Stannis obviously will try to save Shireen and fail. Now everyone is saying well obviously he will murder her for the greater good. This is bullshit. Please stop rationalizing. Try to consider the likilihood of this only with the info we actually have about the show. Thanks and good night.
  40. *show spoiler due to ep.10 preview, go away if you dont want to read it !!!!*

    sh*t !! I thought the leaked ep 10 preview would give us hints about whether shireen dies but it doesn’t actually,does it? 🙁 I will still be freaking out during the episode.. Still, Winterhell battle looks amazing
  41. The fact that sacrifice of Shireen is even the question, merely to win a battle over a worthless shits like Roose and Ramsay, is what bothers me most. How do Stannis or Mel know this is the battle that turns the tide? It’s a long way to Kings Landing. Anyone can rise up to oppose him between Winterfell and there. Just as five kings arose from “nowhere” when Robert died, some lords might rally around someone else. Plus he will have an even bigger battle when he gets close to Kings Landing. Who will be left to sacrifice then?

    Is Roose’s army that big, or is he mostly counting on the protection of winter weather to succeed? In their battle room, Roose and Ramsay were scoffing that Stannis had only 6,000 men. That seems a sizeable amount to me. If the North remembers, meaning the other lords of the North will not rally around Roose, how big could his army possibly be?

    What makes Stannis a king, thereby making Shireen’s blood the blood of kings? Wasn’t he only the Lord of Dragonstone? Or is just proclaiming yourself King enough? He has been neither officially crowned nor nationally recognized as king. Are they still using his kinship to Robert as the deciding factor?

  42. Joffrey’s Cunt,

    So episodes 1 to 4 got leaked, the inside the episodes for episodes 5 and 7 got leaked, screenshots for episode 9 got leaked ánd the preview for episode 10 got leaked. That’s quite a lot of mistakes.

  43. Blob:
    Arthur, i answer you here.

    Actually that scene proved once more that stannis doesn’t feel any affection for his daughter. He was very uncomfortable in that scene and forced himself to give her a small and cold hug. He said that only out of respect.

  44. Allison: It is known.

    It is known.

    (Personally, I think the loss of Dany’s backup singers is one of the saddest deletions from the book to screen. It is known.)

  45. ge2,

    On the contrary, everyone told him the best thing to do was kill her, but he went against them and sought out the best maesters/healers in the land and got her better.

    That’s how I read into it, but I guess we all can see it differently.

  46. ge2: Actually that scene proved once more that stannis doesn’t feel any affection for his daughter. He was very uncomfortable in that scene and forced himself to give her a small and cold hug. He said that only out of respect.

    This is the kind of thing I am talking about. NO ONE – I’m 100% willing to bet not you – said anything like this after the scene in question aired. Now, you’ve rewriten the scene in you head because of what you know (think) is going to happen. I call bullshit.

  47. Thronetender,

    And Robert himself was but a self-proclaimed king. Still, Gendry’s blood did seem to hold some power…

    I agree with your points overall. The Boltons don’t merit a supreme sacrifice. The White Walkers might. That’s why I think someone will be burned, but it won’t be who we think it is.

  48. Queenofthrones,

    Jeez,someone slept on the wrong side of the bed . Continue to believe what you want to believe,live into your own fantasy if that’s what makes you feel better,the fact is this plot point has been all but confirmed today and it’s better to get used to it now before the episode airs and not be bitter while it’s on .

  49. Season 2 Episode 10

    Melisandre: Thousands will die at your command. You will betray the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear…and it will all be worth it, because you are the Son of Fire, you are the Warrior of Light.

  50. Also Daario died but Jorah survived. Ramsay got away unharmed. I was happy with the episode, though I thought the CGI with dany flying drogon was a bit awkward.

  51. man… after all these leaks I’m starting to think the show runners are only interested in shocking shark-jumps for no sake other then to generate some talk on the web/watercoolers, feels like that trumps all even characterization. They really have fucked up Stannis.

  52. Queenofthrones,

    my feeling about the scene haven’t changed
    I think he realy did care about his Daughter

    unfortunately like Anakin skywalker he was seduced by the Dark side of the force lol

  53. mau:
    Season 2 Episode 10

    Melisandre:Thousands will die at your command. You will betray the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear…and it will all be worth it, because you are the Son of Fire, you are the Warrior of Light.

    Sometimes I feel like this is one whole big game for the the different gods that are gonna clash and the people are their pawns.

  54. mau:
    Season 2 Episode 10

    Melisandre:Thousands will die at your command. You will betray the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear…and it will all be worth it, because you are the Son of Fire, you are the Warrior of Light.

    Wow!

  55. i’d just like to take this opportunity to complain about some stuff i’m not exactly sure will happen
    because i’m a fucking idiot

  56. Arthur: flying

    LOL, you are certainly not that bright, are you? What you said HAS NOTHING to do with what i said. Of course he tried to heal her. She was his daughter, why would he let her die? It would have been dishonorable. LOL again.

  57. Rodrik the Reader:
    Bear in mind that in some versions of that Greek myth the girl survives. In still others, she sacrifices herself willingly, heroically, and nobly for the greater good. As yet another alternative, the Bible’s Abraham ends up NOT sacrificing Isaac. His willingness to do so was enough to impress Jehovah.

    You have raised a really interesting point I had never considered before… But I doubt they’ll go down that road. I hope his “willingness” is enough but I hope it’s something Stannis is never “willing” to do at the same time (it’s such a delimma). I’d rather:

    Mel steals her and heads North (for the greater ‘good’ she sees in the fire aka reviving Jon at the start of Season 6). Stannis finds out that his wife allowed it to happen, orders her to be killed, that’s the scene we see in the trailer of Selyse begging his forgiveness and him denying it. He kills Selyse, not burn her, abandon the “religion of Rhalor”, and continues the march to Winterfell for the “greater good”.
  58. Wow, I didn’t think Stannis would actually go that far. It seems I was horribly, horribly wrong.

    I guess I should’ve seen it coming. He had his brother assassinated and nearly sacrificed his bastard nephew after all. I hope he gets gutted before the season is over.

    “Old gods or new, it makes no matter, no man is so accursed as the kinslayer.”

  59. davyJones,

    Yeah man, because the books are so full of complex characterization for everyone and no shock scenes, also totally no cliffhangers at all! How is it a shark jump anyway? That happens when a show is nosediving and people behind it are desperate to get any attention, so they do crazy stuff.
    This is sad, but it has been foreshadowed since S4, so it didn’t “come out of nowhere”.

  60. Queenofthrones: This is the kind of thing I am talking about.NO ONE – I’m 100% willing to bet not you – said anything like this after the scene in question aired.Now, you’ve rewriten the scene in you head because of what you know (think) is going to happen.I call bullshit.

    If you are 100% sure that not me, than I can assure you that you are 100% wrong. I don’t give a fuck about you people, I just wanted to have a talk. Also the first seasons made it clear that stannis is not fond of his daughter at all.

  61. davyJones:
    man… after all these leaks I’m starting to think the show runners are only interested in shocking shark-jumps for no sake other then to generate some talk on the web/watercoolers, feels like that trumps all even characterization. They really have fuckedup Stannis.

    This was foreshadowed in S2. Season 2!!!

  62. Nathan Moore,

    Do people NOT read the post description? NO LEAKED PHOTOS/VIDEOS ARE PERMITTED IN THIS THREAD YOU FUCKING IDIOT.

    I’m outta here.

  63. Do whatever you want with Sansa or Dany, but don’t ruin Stannis again pls.

  64. If THIS ends up happening on top of Sansagate and other things this season…I don’t know. Wouldn’t HBO execs balk at this? Did they completely misjudge the audiences? I wonder after Sansagate knowing
    what was to come the showrunners suddenly realized “oh fuck we pushed them too far. Too far.”

  65. Syrio:
    Show’s writing has turned into a complete joke.

    So stop watching. I don’t mean to say the show is perfect and no criticism is allowed, but how tiresome are the lot of you, who show up only to say hyperbolic crap like that.

    Shark jumps, plot turned into a joke, etc. = all the short version of “boohoo, I don’t like it so it sucks”.

  66. Arthur:
    Maybe Stannis docked his ships on the north side of the wall IDK, who cares.

    It’s not a big deal, should be looked over, it’ll give us a more dramatic scene of them walking up to the tunnel.

    Agreed. 😛

    As a lifelong Star Trek fan I see this a lot: people catch odd logic discrepencies that one must be pretty close with the material to recognize and allow it to discredit the obvious effort to heighten drama. I can appreciate the compulsion but I always veer on the side of heightened drama in these cases (as long as it isn’t something well and truly moronic to the point of appearing as such to all who watch).

    Jon is heading home from this direction because it makes for good staredown cinematography and more on point an appropriate symbolism to viewers.

  67. we all know why this is happening, to generate some buzz and to have show only watchers love Dany more.

    The show wants us to hate Stannis and love Dany, goes back to that scene in Bravos where Davos is asking who’s left to support, this episode is the show runners way of telling us who we are supposed to support.

    Stannis’ entire characterization in the show is to remind us to root for Daenerys.

    “Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen.”

  68. Syrio:
    Show’s writing has turned into a complete joke.

    No it hasn’t, and it’s not bad writing either. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it’s bad writing. I don’t like LOTRs but I’d never say it was badly written, it just isn’t for me.

  69. Jeff O’Connor,

    Lol, yeah…

    I try not to get caught up in that little stuff, although the silliness (IMO) of the Dorne water garden fights, them just walking right up to the Prince in broad daylight and the Sand Snakes arriving at the same time was just silly. Again, (IMO).

  70. Morgoth: So stop watching. I don’t mean to say the show is perfect and no criticism is allowed, but how tiresome are the lot of you, who show up only to say hyperbolic crap like that.

    Shark jumps, plot turned into a joke, etc. = all the short version of “boohoo, I don’t like it so it sucks”.

    And I’m tired of your posts telling me how tired you are of my posts. So where does that get us.

  71. It’s funny, I didn’t really care care too much about the Sansa change, partially because I knew D&D were just giving her Jeyne Poole’s storyline and I understood why they would go that route.

    But now that they are butchering one of my favorite characters for shock value, I feel kind of sad. I don’t even want to watch tonights episode.

    Fuck Ramsay

  72. Tori Targaryen: No it hasn’t, and it’s not bad writing either. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it’s bad writing. I don’t like LOTRs but I’d never say it was badly written, it just isn’t for me.

    And just because you like it doesn’t make it good.

  73. mau,

    I’m not talking about internet peeps. You have a cute innocent girl who may be burned alive with her father’s consent. That’s going to piss in a lot of regular people’s cereal.
    Still, I wonder if GRRM has just as worse stuff in store.

    I think here some people (myself included to a small degree) are worried about the show’s existence whenever the story’s cruel and uncompromising nature comes into play. I could argue the strong narrative and thematic reasons why THIS happening works in the story but that’s not the issue at hand.

    I will tell you one thing: if this goes down we will lose Andy Greenwald.

  74. Great … !!!

    Come in here to join the excitement for this episode and just seen how the whole bloody episode’s been leaked plus a link for episode 10 promo.

    Well Done 🙁

  75. Turncloak:
    It’s funny, I didn’t really care care too much about the Sansa change, partially because I knew she D&D were just giving her Jeyne Poole’s storyline and I understood why they would go that route.

    But now that they are butchering the one of my favorite characters for shock value, I feel kind of sad. I don’t even want to watch tonights episode.

    Fuck Ramsay

    This is spoiler from TWOW, not for shock value.

  76. davyJones,

    oh please

    how stupid people must be saying this shit for seasons …did you forget just a couple of weeks before they had her dragon feed a master

    if you dont like the show then just stop watching dont go Bullshitting

  77. mau: This is spoiler from TWOW, not for shock value.

    It’s not a spoiler for TWOW. As everyone has pointed out the circumstances are entirly different. Shireen is at Castle Black, Stannis is presumed dead. This is character assassination dressed as a shortcut.

    If

    Shireen gets burned in TWOW it won’t be by Stannis.
  78. So are we just not using spoiler tags to discuss this anymore? Alright then…

    Joshua Atreides:
    mau,

    I’m not talking about internet peeps. You have a cute innocent girl who may be burned alive with her father’s consent. That’s going to piss in a lot of regular people’s cereal.
    Still, I wonder if GRRM has just as worse stuff in store.

    I dunno, Martin just might have something worse in mind for her. Mel sees some rather disturbing visions of Patchface in her flames after all…

  79. Syrio: And just because you like it doesn’t make it good.

    Art is open to interpretation. There is no right or wrong answer. What someone loves, another person might hate, but that doesn’t mean that the work is flawed.

  80. I don’t think anyone reading the books can seriously think that Stannis is going to end up on the Iron Throne. He’s a ‘b’ character at best and his days have always been numbered.

  81. Turncloak: It’s not a spoiler for TWOW. As everyone has pointed out the circumstances are entirly different. Shireen is at Castle Black, Stannis is presumed dead. This is character assassination dressed as a shortcut.

    If

    You don’t know that. They just simplified thhings.

    There is no proof that Stannis care about her in the books.

  82. Tori Targaryen: Art is open to interpretation. There is no right or wrong answer. What someone loves, another person might hate, but that doesn’t mean that the work is flawed.

    If there is no right now wrong answer then my statement that it sucks is not wrong.

  83. Tori Targaryen,

    This.

    It really is amazing how some of the posters who were absent in the comments for the last episode have come crawling back.

    It will never cease to amaze me that some people are only interested in bitching about a show that they are ostensibly fans of.

  84. mau,

    Yes they did just simplify things, but to a great damage to the character. In the books if it happens it will be Melisandre or Val to do it, as it has already been foreshadowed.

    Also seriously, Ramsay is untouchable in this series. The Ironborn fight and now this? Come on

  85. The Shireen scene has been leaked online. It’s got to be one of the most heart-wrenching things I’ve seen.
    For me, that’s it. I understood the Sansa scene, although I didn’t like it. In my opinion, and only that, I understand others think differently, the show has gone too far.
  86. davyJones:
    we all know why this is happening, to generate some buzz and to have show only watchers love Dany more.

    The show wants us to hate Stannis and love Dany, goes back to that scene in Bravos where Davos is asking who’s left to support, this episode is the show runners way of telling us who we are supposed to support.

    Stannis’ entire characterization in the show is to remind us to root for Daenerys.

    “Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen.”

    this is the biggest problem of the show, the writers obviously have their faves, its annoying seeing casual viewers always say that Khalesie is the coollest and should be on the iron throne, they are trying so had to make others look bad and make character assassinations of the other characters so that people will root for her… bleh…

  87. Turncloak:
    mau,

    Yes they did just simplify things, but to a great damage to the character. In the books if it happens it will be Melisandre or Val to do it, as it has already been foreshadowed.

    Again, you don’t know this.

    I won’t lie. “Stannis the Mannis” was always annoying to me and I find many of his fans delusional.

    I hope he will die in E10 and end this.

  88. I’m wigging out tonight to avoid all this but…

    IMDB guy is a troll who edits his posts.

    Have faith in Stannis the Mannis, because (rightfully so) HIS faith in Mel is not that strong. Not because he’s wishy-washy. If he was 100% sure it was the right thing, he’d do it. He won’t.

  89. Syrio: If there is no right now wrong answer then my statement that it sucks is not wrong.

    It’s not wrong to you. It’s your opinion.

    I think that’s the great thing with GOT, it causes such an uproar, just like modern art pieces. People claiming it’s not true art, while others think a painting or a display is a masterpiece. Art should be controversial, and apparently, GOT is doing just perfectly at that, just as ASOIAF.

  90. If people are not happy with the decisions that D&D are making, please stop watching.

    We all have different opinions on things, and that’s a good thing. When I don’t like something I see on TV I stop watching, and not continually watch and then bitch online about it. You’ll be happier, and people who are happy with the changes will also be happier.

  91. Tori Targaryen: It’s not wrong to you. It’s your opinion.

    I think that’s the great thing with GOT, it causes such an uproar, just like modern art pieces. People claiming it’s not true art, while others think a painting or a display is a masterpiece. Art should be controversial, and apparently, GOT is doing just perfectly at that, just as ASOIAF.

    Yes it is my opinion, and I’m going to keep saying it. Whether you like it or not.

  92. I also seem to recall ‘producer favourite’ Dany burning a semi-sympathetic serial rape victim alive as one of her defining character moments…

  93. mau,

    It just doesn’t make

    sense for Stannis to do it in the books. With Shireen gone the Baratheon line becomes extinguished.

    It may happen in the books the same way, but I have huge doubts. Also, it seems that Stannis earlier scene was setup to this grotesque thing. I feel bad for Oz as he has stated he will stop watching if Shireen gets burned.

  94. Dany doesnt freaking save Dany. He comes there to eat. He starts killing people and they try to kill him. Dany goes over and stops Drogon, and has a showdown with him. Whips him, tames him, and gets on him and flies away. He realizes that its his mom. Theres no helping Dany. Theres no cliche resuce scene, its more complicated.

    The Show? Drogon has magic powers and knows Dany is in trouble, and rescues her……………WHY!? D&D are just terrible at writing.

  95. Jeb:
    If people are not happy with the decisions that D&D are making,please stop watching.

    We all have different opinions on things,and that’s a good thing. When I don’t like something I see on TV I stop watching,and not continually watch and then bitch online about it. You’ll be happier,and people who are happy with the changes will also be happier.

    I agree with you, as I said to another poster about LOTRs, I’m not a fan, but I would never call it a complete joke, that’s just complete and utter nonsense. LOTRs just doesn’t do it for me but I respect it as a series of wonderfully directed and acted films, and a magnificently written series of books. I don’t tear them apart because they didn’t do what I wanted them to do. If I wanted to determine the outcome of a story, I’d write my own, play a game, anything else. With ASOIAF or GOT, I want to enjoy the story being told to me, I don’t want to dictate anything about it.

  96. Syrio: Yes it is my opinion, and I’m going to keep saying it. Whether you like it or not.

    Good for you 🙂

  97. Javi from Los Siete Reinos:

    I’ll quote two people:
    “We’re not really beyond the books yet” Benioff & Weiss (they will not spoil the books in the 5th season)

    Yeah. Sure. Never mind that they’ve confirmed a number of bits and pieces fans merely suspected (Night’s King, Valyrian steel kills WWs, etc). Fans familiar with both mediums can probably provide additional examples.

  98. We really don’t know what GRRM has in store so claiming that the show has left the books is getting ahead of things. GRRM said this season that D&D are loyal to the books. That tells me whatever beats are coming with the story are likely to exist in some fashion in The Winds of Winter. Including Sansa’s arc this season and whatever happens with Stannis and Co.

  99. Lady Wolfsbane:
    I’m wigging out tonight to avoid all this but…

    IMDB guy is a troll who edits his posts.

    Have faith in Stannis the Mannis, because (rightfully so) HIS faith in Mel is not that strong. Not because he’s wishy-washy. If he was 100% sure it was the right thing, he’d do it. He won’t.

    I think Stannis is one of the main villains, that’s his destiny. long with his fuck head god. The drown god and all of them are all fighting for power and they have chosen their champion. The Children of the forest are the true heroes in all of this

  100. People can be highly critical of a decision without it being some binary choice of praise D&D or leave. I’ve always been in the former camp but what is going down this episode has crossed a line for me. That line is probably different for everyone, and I’m going to keep watching, but I think it’s too much.

  101. Turncloak:
    mau,

    It just doesn’t make

    The real problem is that book readers now don’t know about this big deaths.

    There is no difference between this and RW, Oberyn’s death, or Ned’s death.

    But now, book readers don’t know if some death is show-only, or from the TWOW and ADOS.

  102. mau,

    Your quotation from 2×10 got me to thinking about all of this, and I wanted to post some reflections on the subject. The spoiler tags don’t seem to be working, so please be advised that there are spoilers for tonight’s episode and “ADWD” below…

    One thing that I find rather bizarre about this quotation, and about how everything has unfolded, is that the showrunners weren’t even sure that they were going to include Shireen. If I remember correctly, there was talk that the character was going to be omitted completely, and in the S2 scene in which Mel and Stannis create the shadowbaby, Mel refers to the stillborn children but not to Shireen. Then, Shireen was introduced in S3, and she was supposedly only going to be around for S3 (again, if I’m remember correctly, Kerry Ingram did an interview where she stated that she was pleased that she got to stay on through S4 and work with other actors, because initially, she was just contracted for S3). Certainly, at the end of Season 4, Melisandre begins dropping hints about sacrificing Shireen, which means that this event has been on the horizon for some time, but I certainly cannot believe that it has been on the table since S2. Couple that with the fact that this does not happen in the books (Stannis is instructing his men to fight for Shireen should he fall in battle!), and I cannot help but agree with those who are arguing that (a) this is an example of shock-programming taking precedent over narrative and characterization, and (b) it is perhaps the ultimate indication that the showrunners have never viewed Stannis as a grey character, and that they tend to “play favorites” as far as morality is concerned (Tyrion and Dany have not been pushed to the same grey areas as their literary forebears).

    I must confess that I’m very surprised things played out this way, for in the “Inside the Episode” for 5×04, it was clear that D&D very much loved the scene between Stannis and Shireen, and certainly, that scene resonated powerfully with the viewing public and the fanbase…now, how can we ever watch that scene again?

    Overall, I’m very disappointed that things have come to this for a variety of reasons, and I don’t know quite what to make of it all…Team Dragonstone has always been very dear to me as a book reader (from Maester Cressen’s prologue onward), and though I did not always care for the way in which these characters have been written on the show, I thought that the actors were brilliant in their roles and played off one another incredibly well. I suppose I can take some cold comfort in that, though I regret to say that I have watched the scene that will undoubtedly rattle everyone who watches the episode tonight; ironically, I think my horror toward what is happening in the narrative is equaled only by my frustration with the chaotic and inconsistent decisions that are currently shaping the narrative, though I suppose we have to make allowances in this regard given the absurd state of things at present (e.g. trying to adapt an incomplete book series into a television series.)

  103. Kyrion,

    Drogon comes exactly after she removes her floppy tails …she has been nervous all day and there was an assassination attempt on her

    they both save each other

    ghost comes the exact moment when jon has to make the decision to become a stark or remain Snow ..he makes his mind after seeing ghost

    but whatever sometimes people dont really understands the subtle meaning in the books like you just did …so they have to simplify it

  104. ge2: If you are 100% sure that not me, than I can assure you that you are 100% wrong. I don’t give a fuck about you people, I just wanted to have a talk. Also the first seasons made it clear that stannis is not fond of his daughter at all.

    k link me to your comment after that scene where you (or anyone) said that he clearly doesn’t really love her. I’ll be waiting.

  105. mau,

    Whatever. Guess I’ll just root for #TeamNightsKing from now on. Not going to pretend to quit watching the show like others will.

    Some really brutal deaths coming up. Will be interesting to see what critics like Andy Greenwald think about this episode.

  106. dragonbringer,

    I think Kyrion has a good grasp of it. There is no “saving” going on. Earlier in the season, Drogon stopped by, only to blow her off as a “half-measures” kind of gal. Did she attempt to tame him, to master him? No, she tried to pet him. Fuck that and he flew off.

    In Daznak’s, Drogon smelled blood and heard the noise. He recognized Dany only after he initially attacked her during his adhoc attack & gory feast. It was up to Dany to whip him and mount him, even as her hair was on fire. She has to demonstrate that she is ready for “full measure” then Drogon will acquiesce…but I doubt the show will go that deep.
  107. zoomzoonzom:
    Arya’s plot is the only one D&D are being faithful to.

    I wonder why.

    For this I am thankful. It’s been slow but consistent. Her arc has continuously moved forward, even with all the “filler” from last season with her and The Hound, which was great fun but also solid character development. I feel the same can be said for Jon and, to a lesser extent, Tyrion and Cersei.
    While it bums a book reader out, the direction of Stannis and Sansa and Dany’s arcs have been all over the map.
    Still enjoying it but pissed that Stannis is, as someone mentioned up thread, being painted as a monster to make us jump to Team Dany. I like Dany enough but Stannis has always been my OTK, so the blatant assassination of Stannis’ arc at this point feels like a last minute rush job to make Dany the only “hero”. Root for her because there is no one else. Meh.

  108. Turncloak,
    I apologize for not using spoilers…

    Prediction: Greenwaldwill drop the show and denounce it in a scathing article. We also lose Sepinwall and Laura Stone.

    IF THIS IS TRUE. This will be worse than Sansagate. What’s worse is that I will probably lose my Mom as a fan. And that saddens me as we both love this story.

  109. OMG! OMG! Drogon! He’s just about 4 years old, isn’t he? Yet how utterly magnificent he is as he arrives! Just totally badass! 😀

  110. Why D&D, just why?Damn.

    Poor thing and it will overshadow Dany’s big moment.Thanks boys.

  111. Hodor’s Bastard,

    Yes Drogon Stopped by but why exactly that moment he came and not before or after ..

    its no surprising that he came at the time when dany was in danger and needed protecting ..

    who said there will be no such thing like she will still try and control him in the show ..

    people need to understand this is fiction a story …there is more to that scene than Drogon just coming and burning

    the whole arc of her in AdwD is chaining the dragons and losing herself …its no wonder the book started with chaining the dragons and ended with the dragons being freed …and people like quaither try to remind her who she is and accept that ..

    Drogon came why exactly at that moment when dany removes the floppy ears and deciding she is not one of the meereenese and does not belong there ..

    As soon as she embraced that she doesnt belong there Drogon appears

    we also have more about Dragons sensing and going to their riders from TWOIAF like for Aegon and others

  112. Kells,

    It’s a CONSPIRACY,EVERYONE IS OUT TO GET STANNIS,seriously that’s exactly how you sound right now,he’s a FICTIONAL CHARACTER IN A FICTIONAL STORY,get over it ffs !

  113. Joshua Atreides,

    Goodbye then,i don’t care for bandwagoners,if the last episode isn’t proof that Greenwald is a bandwagoner,i don’t know what is . Just two weeks before he was about done with the show,yet now because everyone was praising the last one,he joined in like the good little sheep he is.

  114. urangutan21:
    Joshua Atreides,

    Goodbye then,i don’t care for bandwagoners,if the last episode isn’t proof that Greenwald is a bandwagoner,i don’t know what is . Just two weeks before he was about done with the show,yet now because everyone was praising the last one,he joined in like the good little sheep he is.

    And he even don’t like fantasy, but somehow he liked Hardgome?

  115. So um, anyone who is following the leak and thinks it’s fake hasn’t seen the vid proof, I guess. It’s on IMDb; there’s a clip.

  116. THIS JUST IN

    GRRM postpones WoW four more years to rewrite all of the Stannis chapters, claims total innocence.

  117. Re: Lommy – you don’t see the difference between brutal Lannister soldiers stabbing a kid and a quasi-protagonist burning his innocent daughter alive while she screams?

  118. Martin:
    Jeff O’Connor,

    WHERE?

    Go to IMDb’s message board and you’ll find the right topic. It’s been up for a while now.

    Something about “burning scene” in the title and it has more replies than anything else I saw.

    (Mods, if I said too much I genuinely apologize. I didn’t deliver the precise destination but I recognize that I came close.)

  119. KFC:
    THIS JUST IN

    GRRM postpones WoW four more years to rewrite all of the Stannis chapters, claims total innocence.

    GRRM does have the advantage here – he effectively gets to focus-group some of his ideas to see how they are likely to be received.

  120. Turncloak:
    mau,

    Whatever. Guess I’ll just root for #TeamNightsKing from now on. Not going to pretend to quit watching the show like others will.

    Some really brutal deaths coming up. Will be interesting to see what critics like Andy Greenwald think about this episode.

    Andy Greenwald? Why should I care for Andy fookin’ Greenwald thinks? I’m sure as hell that I will keep watching the show, and so will 90% of those who now say they will not watch more. To all you “I’m done with the show” lot, see you here in a week!

  121. I’m not going to make my judgments until I see the episode but this could potentially be a fatal mistake for D & D and the show.

    This is a fantasy series first and foremost, this isn’t Rome or Deadwood or the The Wire where cruel things happen like they do in real life. Those shows had niche audiences.
    But this is an international phenomenon, it’s part of our culture, there’s Millions in merchandising alone! From a financial point of view you can only test the audience so much.

    I honestly believe D&D we’re writers in this regard not showrunners. Working 12 months of year has made them isolated from the fandom and the cultural impact that they don’t even consider what they are writing or the audience.

    In truth i have no idea how this will go down.

  122. Joshua Atreides,

    I don’t think we will lose either of them since they get paid to talk about it.

    I was holding out to hope that

    Stannis would not burn Shireen because it would remove all stakes from the upcoming battle of winterfell since people wouldn’t care who lived/died in it after that. I was wrong.
    On top of that we get an underwhelming Drogon

    scene which I actually expected after seeing the set pics with the sons of the harpy in the arena. So I’m not as disappointed by that as I saw it coming. But still, no dragon taming, that’s a shame.

    I’m intrigued to see how the ratings are for episode 10. I want to see if this will actually effect the needle or if people are just blowing smoke up their asses when they say they will quit the show.

  123. Dragonslayer: prev

    Wait a minute, I think only two episodes had “previously on”. I never recall any episode to have this other than two in this season.

  124. Turncloak,

    Historically, it’s mostly smoke-ass. I’d be surprised if that changed now, but I suppose it’s never out of the realm of possibility.

  125. Joshua Atreides:
    I’m not going to make my judgments until I see the episode but this could potentially be a fatal mistake for D & D and the show.

    This is a fantasy series first and foremost, this isn’t Rome or Deadwood or the The Wire where cruel things happen like they do in real life. Those shows had niche audiences.
    But this is an international phenomenon, it’s part of our culture, there’s Millions in merchandising alone! From a financial point of view you can only test the audience so much.

    I honestly believe D&D we’re writers in this regard not showrunners. Working 12 months of year has made them isolated from the fandom and the cultural impact that they don’t even consider what they are writing or the audience.

    In truth i have no idea how this will go down.

    Stannis Funko! Pop now w/ the charred remains of his only daughter

  126. JaimenotJamie:
    Re: Lommy – you don’t see the difference between brutal Lannister soldiers stabbing a kid and a quasi-protagonist burning his innocent daughter alive while she screams?

    After thinking on this for a while, I don’t think it’s as surprising as it at first seems. All the signs were there, stretching all the way back to what Mel told Stannis in the finale of Season 2.

    I’m thinking Ramsay’s little raid might be what ultimately prompts Stannis to go through with this insanity. It might make him unsure of his victory along with the terrible weather and sellswords running off.

    Regardless, fuck Stannis Baratheon. I hope he does this thinking it will ensure victory… then loses the battle anyway.

  127. Turncloak,

    That’s what I hate the most. Who cares who wins the battle of Winterfell now? If Sansa lives…great I guess.
    It seems D&D (and maybe GRRM) wished to balk convention and write the anti-Pelennor Fields. No good guys vs bad guys here. Instead we have the traitorous Boltons vs religious zealots.
    My only hope is that Dillane can save the moment, that in his defeat he will realize the great sacrifice was for nothing. That may be what D&D are aiming for.
    I guess it will be Brienne that will finish him.

  128. dragonbringer: Drogon came why exactly at that moment when dany removes the floppy ears and deciding she is not one of the meereenese and does not belong there ..

    As soon as she embraced that she doesnt belong there Drogon appears

    I’ll violently agree with you, but I’ll still maintain that a dragon needs to be challenged by the future rider and the rider needs to survive the aftermath of the challenge. Mental bonding comes later. I’m surprised that Drogon didn’t come and cause mayhem when R&V were screaming as a result of their mother abusing them with their chaining. In fact, Drogon could have been pissed at Dany for the chaining when he stopped by/flew off earlier this season, not because she was in “danger.”. 🙂

    In TP&tQ (story of the Dance of Dragons war), it was heavily described that dragons are violently hard to tame (like in many fantasy tales), nor do they have any bond with the rider until the rider rides/tames them. Many, many (even Targs) died trying to tame their potential dragon. Even Drogon should not acquiesce so easily.
  129. Turncloak:
    Davos’ Luck,

    Andy Greenwald is my favorite reviewer so I simply am interested in seeing his reaction. Is there something wrong with that?

    He hated Oberyn’s death, he hated Sansa’s rape, and he will hate this.

    He just wants happy ending, but he don’t want to admit that.

  130. I think the real problem here is that it’s not shocking in the same way as the Red Wedding or Ned’s death. It’s actually predictable and has been heavily signposted and foreshadowed. People have been speculating about it for a while and just hoping that there is going to be some clever twist or there is something more to it and it won’t actually happen.

    It’s distasteful and cruel, but also everyone saw it coming. That doesn’t make good television. I don’t think anyone thought Stannis was ever going to claim the throne, but up until now there was always the chance that he might at least polish off fecking Ramsay who is seriously outstaying his welcome at this point. As mentioned above, now there isn’t really anyone to root for in the North storyline.

    Actually maybe that’s why they chose to involve Sansa?

  131. It looks like Jon will warg into Ghost.That’s his only option to live or they postponed FTW to next season.
  132. Joshua Atreides:
    Turncloak,

    .
    It seems D&D (and maybe GRRM) wished to balk convention and write the anti-Pelennor Fields. No good guys vs bad guys here. Instead we have the traitorous Boltons vs religious zealots.

    But isn’t the subverting tropes something we all love about ASOIF and GoT.

    It is very original. We hate Stannis, and we hate Roose.

  133. On the topic of Shireen and her burning being an unredeemable act… I always found it a little troublesome that people rooted for the death of Mirri in season 1, whose ‘crime’ was destabilising the Khalasaar that burned her village and committed mass slaughter, mutilation and rape against her townspeople (as she says, she is a rape victim herself, thanks to Drogo’s Dothraki). Really, her murder of Rhaego (prophesised to be a great destroyer himself) and Drogo was, from another perspective, quite heroic. But we understand that Dany will be compelled to kill her in a horrific manner, and even cheer for it! Bizarre. I think the objection to Shireen’s burning is more along the lines of ‘it disturbs me’ or ‘I don’t like it’ rather than it not making any sort of character or narrative sense.

    Last week everyone was praising what reviewers liked to remind us was not a battle, but a massacre of thousands of men, women and children (so exciting!) I wonder how their morality will flip according to their emotions this week (the old ‘Boo! Hooray!’ mode of morality.)

  134. Geralt of Rivia,

    That or the Night’s King. Or even Mel belatedly. Somehow. Crazy as that sounds. Fact is, they could leave it on the cliffhanger we’re dreading and let 2016 sort it out. Which opens up possible avenues that now appear closed-off.
  135. Stannis is done, IMHO. He will die in episode 10, and, just before he dies, he probably will realize the atrocity that had just committed. And Melisandre won’t be back to the wall, so either Jon is warging Ghost, or For The Watch is next season.

  136. So I just found out the internet is on fire.. and the episode hasn’t even started yet. This is going to be worse than the Sansa rape thing, guys.. I hope you’re prepared.

    So all I gotta say is: Long live Renly, the vastly superior Baratheon brother!

  137. Hodor’s Bastard,

    i agree with what you are saying

    if you have looked at my post in the other thread i wanted her taming him more than anyone

    but the problem is this is completely different medium …where were these guys who are now complaining when they made scenes like Drogon snapping at dany …dragons breathing fire at dany and she running away from them

    all these people mocked that she is losing control of her dragons when those scene were never in the books…but now complaining because its shows that dragons always cared for her …dont you see the reason for their dislike because they showed drogon caring for his mother

  138. Just saw a clip of Dorne, very disappointed. It also confirms that the summary is 100% true.

  139. alina,

    You misunderstand me. I myself am not complaining. I am more concerned with the future of the series. I am withholding judgement until I see the episode. I am merely discussing the logic of their writing process in terms of thematic and symbolic development.

    And I love LoTR but it’s a little too black and white for my tastes.

  140. Maybe Melisandre is using the magic she used with BookMance on peoples perception of what is happening to Shireen…tho I don’t know why. She is a true believer and would know you cant fool the Lord of Light.

  141. Renly’s Peach:
    So I just found out the internet is on fire.. and the episode hasn’t even started yet. This is going to be worse than the Sansa rape thing, guys.. I hope you’re prepared.

    So all I gotta say is: Long live Renly, the vastly superior Baratheon brother!

    LOL, you must feel some schadenfreude now. After all this years arguing against the Stannis Hardcore Stans, I think you will be amused for their reactions in the next hours. Get some pop corn.

  142. Jeff O’Connor,

    They never done any clifhanger in the finale.By the look of it, Olly will do it this season.So…

    Night’s King is apparently supposed to be in this episode.It’s unofficial and so far pure speculation.I doubt that.That leaves us with only 2 options.Stannis dies and Mel will try to revive him.He will not raise, but it will be Jon instead or Jon will warg into Ghost.

    I just don’t understand Davos angle on all of this.Is he gonna change side from Stannis to Jon?When he’s gonna learn all of this, it looks like he is done with Stannis.And wtf is Sam doing still there.

  143. Ozy:
    Just saw a clip of Dorne, very disappointed. It also confirms that the summary is 100% true.

    Could you point me in the right direction of the summary itself? I never actually located that part.

  144. Hodor’s Bastard: I’ll violently agree with you, but I’ll still maintain that a dragon needs to be challenged by the future rider and the rider needs to survive the aftermath of the challenge. Mental bonding comes later. I’m surprised that Drogon didn’t come and cause mayhem when R&V were screaming as a result of their mother abusing them with their chaining. In fact, Drogon could have been pissed at Dany for the chaining when he stopped by/flew off earlier this season, not because she was in “danger.”.

    are you retarded? How was he supposed to heard their screams?

  145. Dear Sue & Mods,

    I actually regret now having joined this discussion today. It has gone out of control and impossible to delete comments as they happen.

    Please add a warning at the top in red, bold, capitalised letters that the episode has been leaked and people are discussing it. I honestly don’t want the episode ruined for others the way it has been ruined for me. These open chats generally constitute of people predicting things, not actual spoilers.

    Regards, Mustafa.

    Edit:

    I see now that you have done this on the above article. I just regret coming in this discussion.

  146. mau: But isn’t the subverting tropes something we all love about ASOIF and GoT.

    It is very original. We hate Stannis, and we hate Roose.

    In the TV medium you need emotional investment. This upcoming battle will lack that, especially if Sansa and Theon escape

  147. mau,

    That seems to be the goal then. I never really dug Stannis in the books but I am a Dillane fan so maybe I was hoping for a redemption arc but c’est la vie.

    But yes the anti-Pelennor.

    Only this time Eowyn will slay Theoden instead of the Witch King. Re: Brienne.

  148. Joshua Atreides,

    Really? You don’t see GOT as a show where cruel things happen like in real life? To me that’s what makes it unique in a fantasy setting. And I’m quite sure that’s pretty much the premis of the show. A fantasy story featuring elements of gritty realism, no?

  149. Davos’ Luck,

    I’ve been waiting for this day for years lemme tell ya. This is my second most anticipated day, right behind the day we see Stannis himself die.

    Then my journey of bitter vengeance will be complete and I’ll join my king in the afterlife.

  150. Jeff O’Connor,

    “Jaime and the royals of Dorne have a little chitchat and Jamie’s got that father gene going. “Why are you wearing that dress? Aren’t you cold?” he askes. ”

    Dorne is completely useless.

  151. If whats specualted with regards to Shireen actually comes to pass Lulu’s Mum is gonna lose her shit, cant wait to see her post

  152. Jeff O’Connor,

    If Davos was there.None of this would ever happen.He will rather die trying to do the right thing.No doubt in my mind.It’s interesting and pretty start of a big downfall for Stannis.

  153. Davos’ Luck:
    Stannis is done, IMHO. He will die in episode 10, and, just before he dies, he probably will realize the atrocity that had just committed. And Melisandre won’t be back to the wall, so either Jon is warging Ghost, or For The Watch is next season.

    LOL not this shit again. Jon is not a warg in tv show. So you people should stop with this non sense.

  154. amir az,

    They could leave it as a surprise.Jon’s famous scene is coming, and it’s the only logical thing to do.You can’t leave this on cliffhanger, because D&D are smarter than this.

  155. My thoughts on FTW.

    FTW will happen. Not sure if Mel will be there or not but it doesn’t matter. They will burn his body just like Aemon with his sword with him. Either the next morning or later that day the fire will awaken him as the Prince that was promised and Longclaw will be on fire. It will be reminiscent to how S1 ended with the fire waking the dragons and Dany.

    Thoughts?

  156. I was insanely hyped for this episode.
    One of the greatest sequences ever is about to be on screen.
    But all this Stannis drama is going to ruin it all.
    The backlash will be ridiculous.

  157. mkbean,

    Yes it will happen and cliffhanger is nonsense.

    Most likely: He will warg into Ghost.

    Less likely: Stannis is badly injured or dead.So is Jon at the Wall.Mel is trying to revive him ala Thoros with Beric.Bam Jon is the one raising up.

    Pure fanfiction:Night’s King will be there.He looked at Jon like: interesting guy, good addition to my army.

  158. Renly’s Peach:
    Davos’ Luck,

    I’ve been waiting for this day for years lemme tell ya. This is my second most anticipated day, right behind the day we see Stannis himself die.

    Then my journey of bitter vengeance will be complete and I’ll join my king in the afterlife.

    My apologies for calling Renly a thive. He was right and he knew what stannis was all along.

    May Renly rest in peace. He woulda been the greatest king in Westeros.

  159. Not sure if this has been proposed yet regarding Stannis and Shireen. If so, forgive me.

    Has anyone considered Shireen burning without Stannis’ approval? We all know selyse is batshit crazy and will do anything Mel asks…but what if Mel and Selyse go behind his back and burn shireen after he forbids it? What ya’ll think?

  160. hey ,rejoice episode 9 seems to be the best ,500+ people already gave it a 10 on imdb :)))

  161. FTW… Considering the Night’s King was rumored to be in 5×10, I dunno if that’s even pure fanfiction at this point. I’d rather it didn’t go that route, mind you.

    Anyway, thanks for the stuff on the summary, to those who helped out. All caught up. Man, the reddit ASOIAF thread is on fire. Huge upvotes to anyone who finds a way to trashtalk D&D. So much animosity.

  162. Andrew:
    Not sure if this has been proposed yet regarding Stannis and Shireen. If so, forgive me.

    Has anyone considered Shireen burning without Stannis’ approval? We all know selyse is batshit crazy and will do anything Mel asks…but what if Mel and Selyse go behind his back and burn shireen after he forbids it?What ya’ll think?

    You might wanna go to the other thread. Folks in here know 5×09 inside and out at this point. You won’t get “hmm, that’s interesting” — you’ll get a yes or no on if you’re correct.

  163. Morgoth,

    Well I mean, it doesn’t HAVE to be like the books. It just has to be not terribly written and stupid. This is walking dead level writing, and D&D have been doing it all season.

  164. Ozy,

    Stannis fans will obviously lash out. But even more than that, portraying a little girl getting burned @ the stake is going to push a lot of people too far.
  165. Roose On The Loose:
    If whats specualted with regards to Shireen actually comes to pass Lulu’s Mum is gonna lose her shit, cant wait to see her post

    Oh yeah! She’s gonna freak, cause yeah, that’s some shit right there. My kid called me up at work to tell me.
    This is gonna be tough.

  166. Jeff O’Connor,

    I don’t think its just a cinematic point. They would have the choice of going south and then marching thru the war torn north where northern lords would attack them or go north, land above the wall and march without anything in the way straight to the Castle Black tunnel.

  167. Jeff O’Connor: Anyway, thanks for the stuff on the summary, to those who helped out. All caught up. Man, the reddit ASOIAF thread is on fire. Huge upvotes to anyone who finds a way to trashtalk D&D. So much animosity.

    Do you think that Reddit is bitter and mean? Wait and see the comments at Westeros.org tonight… If you had the stomach to go there, of course (I certainly don’t).

  168. Maybe I’m wrong here, but, the general sentiment that I’m getting from the posts that I’m reading is that the majority of the anger over this episode is simply yet another variation on “That wasn’t in the books! I HATE it! D&D are pissing all over George’s vision with their stupid fanfic, etc., etc., ad nauseum“. Wow, guys; I didn’t realize that some of you had access to George’s manuscript of TWoW and know the exact direction in which he’s taking the plot in the next 2 (or 3, 4, 8?) books. If so, please share the goods! I’m dying to know! [/sarcasm]

    Pardon the snark, but my point is that NONE of us here actually know what the fuck George plans to do with these characters in the upcoming books outside of what happened in the leaked chapters he’s put out so far. D&D have made numerous changes to the timeline of events that have happened in previous books, so, who is to say that this event- or, Gods forbid, something even worse- isn’t going to happen at least in some form in Book 6 or 7? To be perfectly blunt, it is utterly asinine to criticize the show for failing to achieve fealty to source material (assume Lewis Black voice) THAT HASN’T EVEN BEEN PUBLISHED YET! Oh, and for those of you who say that

    Book Stannis would NEVER sacrifice an innocent child that he’s raised from birth to achieve his ultimate glory as the the chosen son of the Lord of Light, I have two words for you: Edric Storm. Show Stannis was WAY more conflicted about killing Gendry than his literary counterpart was about sacrificing Edric, and Edric was both younger and more attached to Stannis (Stannis practically raised him as his own in the books) than was Gendry.

    Yes, of course people are free to criticize this development in the plot if they don’t happen to like it (I think it’s SUPPOSED to be tragic, emotionally gutting, unsettling, disturbing, etc., etc., but what do I know?), but people who are calling this a betrayal of George’s story honestly do not know what the fuck they are talking about. Rant over.

  169. Damphairintheshowplease!,

    I am fully aware of what GoT is and I love it for what it is. But mainstream audiences didnt watch Deadwood or the Wire or Rome. They got into the show because it’s an epic fantasy. Maybe I underestimate them.

    That said, having thought about it, the death of Shireen will mean the end of Stannis at Winterfell. In the end Stannis will realize it was all for nothing. Dillane can sell this. This is why they made him enthralled to Melisandre. I predict Brienne will end Stannis after his victory, and Mel will try to save him, save Azor Ahai and as many have speculated this will raise Jon instead.
    It works brilliantly if you put aside the loss of Shireen and the backlash it causes.

    I now have a feeling that Shireen/Patchface’s song prophesied this: stone (greyscale re: Shireen) will burn and awaken a dragon…Jon

    It also parallels with Dany’s “rebirth”. A woman/girl (Mirri/Shireen) sacrificed to allow another to be reborn.

  170. It wouldn’t feel right to me if Jon came back any other way than through Mel. She’s been unusually interested in him since she first laid eyes on him in The Children. I also felt like one of the reasons they had Mel and the BwB meet up in the first place was to run the idea of resurrection by her.

    Also, didn’t Carice van Houten say she has another scene with Jon before the end of the season?

    I dunno. Seems like all signs point to Mel reviving Jon, if not this season then the next.

  171. HelloThere:
    Its times like this I wish I wasn’t so entrenched in the GOT fandom.

    A wise person once told me, “EMBRACE THE SCHADENFREUDE!”

  172. Kyrion,

    GRRM has hinted many times in the books that the dragons know how Dany feels. they can read her feelings due to the bond they have with her as their mother. in the books Quaith says that to Dany. in the show, we dont see Quaith as much thus the producers, thankfully tbh, have added that aspect. plus it gives the dragons MUCH more depth than simply us seeing them as wild beasts. The direwolves seem to have these form of almost telepathic connections with the Stark children even when warging is not involved. why is it that dragons are not allowed to have that sort of depth and ability. for goodness sake, dragons in LOTR were considered cool for their intelligence. this is a much improvement. the only thing that saddens me about this though is that we wont see Dany taking control of Drogon and mastering it like she did in the books. at least that would have put an end to the whole “u cant control ur dragons” crap

  173. I wish it was a little longer…Even 5 extra minutes (58 minutes) could have made a big difference to the episode’s quality.

    At least it’s not as short as one of the ones before (51 Minutes).

  174. With all “Will Stannis burn her, or not?” going on upthread, I find it interesting that no one seems to be considering the third possibility – that Shireen burns accidently during the raid. I suppose to R’hllor, it is all the same.

  175. Bareeq:
    Kyrion,

    GRRM has hinted many times in the books that the dragons know how Dany feels. they can read her feelings due to the bond they have with her as their mother. in the books Quaith says that to Dany. in the show, we dont see Quaith as much thus the producers, thankfully tbh, have added that aspect. plus it gives the dragons MUCH more depth than simply us seeing them as wild beasts.

    Yeah, thank god they leeched as much of the magic and mysticism from a fantasy series as they could. Thank you for zero prophecies and bare minimum magic, D&D.

  176. Geralt of Rivia,

    Perhaps. I do kinda like the idea of him coming back to life while on the funeral pyre, mirroring Dany’s scene in Season 1. I’ve always been in the “Jon is Azor Ahai” camp anyway, even more so after Hardhome.
  177. RBloodworth,

    Love the avatar name! I’m looking forward to see how your alter ego survived a hellfire missile in a cave while stuck in a wheelchair with emphysema.

    That said, having dismissed my initial reaction I am beginning to see the narrative worth to this change. Given Shireen’s song and it’s poetic portents it seems Shireen will be burned by Melisandre instead.

    The showrunners have decided to turn Stannis into a tragic figure.

  178. Dame Pasty:
    Jeff O’Connor,

    I don’t think its just a cinematic point.They would have the choice of going south and then marching thru the war torn north where northern lords would attack them or go north, land above the wall and march without anything in the way straight to the Castle Black tunnel.

    Yeah, true that. Plenty of reason, then.

  179. lala,

    Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m not. We were discussing mental bonds between dragons and riders and other possible bonds. Get with the program before you insult.

  180. Davos’ Luck: Do you think that Reddit is bitter and mean? Wait and see the comments at Westeros.org tonight…If you had the stomach to go there, of course (I certainly don’t).

    I went there literally once, in 2012. Already, it was a bloodbath. Never again. 😛

  181. It was fun liking you for a few weeks Stannis. I don’t mind the change though, it’ll just be painfull to watch.

    And Westeros.org will be a scary place tonight.

  182. Robb Snow,

    It would come out of nowhere.No hints of his abilities, but they can make this happen.

    There is some strange connection between Night’s King and Jon.There is theory about some sort of aggrement between Starks and WW.Maybe you are right and while they will burn his body, Mel will try to revive Stannis only to realize something.Only 3 options, but I think we will see the finale outcome.Cliffhanger is bad.

  183. Mel burning Shireen as a result of the ‘pink letter’ is plausible – which will raise Jon instead of Stannis, who may or may not be dead.

    The main show/book difference would therefore be in the characterisation of Stannis.

  184. Frederick B.,

    I wonder how many people from that lovely forum of happiness and reasonable argument will… ehem, ehem… “quit the show.” Coincidentally, they will quit for about a week, just in time for the finale. Hopefully I’m wrong and some of them actually stop watching, at least in regards to the most vociferous and ravenous voices in that wretched hive of scum and villainy, such as Lindaaa.

  185. Jeff O’Connor: Anyway, thanks for the stuff on the summary, to those who helped out. All caught up. Man, the reddit ASOIAF thread is on fire. Huge upvotes to anyone who finds a way to trashtalk D&D. So much animosity.

    Reddit was on fire after S4E10 also.

    They hate show, ant still watch it. I fear for their mental health

  186. This is totally out of character, Selyse would definetly burn shireen but stannis? never, man i fucking hate how D&D are so biased to Dany and make her the Saintly Hero and how they Portray Stannis as a villain.

  187. mau,

    I think they all pretend to hate the show, but secretly love it. Why else would they keep coming back to it over and over again?

  188. IH8DANY,

    Yes. So out of character! Remember how he totally wasn’t ready to kill Edric Storm in the books, a child he had known for years as he lived in Dragonstone, if it meant getting him closer to the Iron Throne? Or maybe it was… completely the opposite.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’d love for Stannis to grow a heart, which seemingly started to happen in “Sons of the Harpy”, but Stannis NOT being willing to do ANYTHING if it means winning the Throne would be out of character, not this. I’d accept it, because it would mean Stannis telling the religious fanatic to FUCK OFF, which I’d enjoy tremendously, and it would mean Stannis would be a bit more likeable. But that’s patently not what’s planned for him, and I accept it, because I’m not a child. It’s not out of character, and we don’t know its purpose narratively, though I imagine it means Stannis is not long for this world. Brienne may get her wish after all.

    Selyse is a bit more puzzling though. I guess that, even if you consider your daughter a sign of your weakness and failure, it’s still your daughter, at least when she’s gonna be burnt to death.

    Robb Snow,

    Masochism. To each their own, I guess.

  189. Luka Nieto:
    Frederick B.,

    I wonder how many people from that lovely forum of happiness and reasonable argument will… ehem, ehem… “quit the show.” Coincidentally, they will quit for about a week, just until the finale.

    After E10 they will quit the show.

    For 9 months.

  190. IH8DANY:
    This is totally out of character, Selyse would definetly burn shireen but stannis? never, man i fucking hate how D&D are so biased to Dany and make her the Saintly Hero and how they Portray Stannis as a villain.

    How is she portrayed as a saintly hero? She has fucked up plenty of times.

  191. Dany is a much nicer character in the books.

    I still can’t wait for her big moment! Not gonna let some Stannis stans ruin for me
  192. Morgoth: How is she portrayed as a saintly hero? She has fucked up plenty of times.

    meh.. “Stannis The Mannis” fanatics…

  193. Now that I am prepared for this scene, I can move on to speculating about what this may mean for other characters.

    Did the leaked summary say that Stannis sends Davos off to CB for supplies? If yes, then what is up next for Davos? Is he at The Wall for Jon’s resurrection? Or does he head back to Stannis’ camp prior to the start of the battle? I can’t imagine that Davos will continue to support Stannis after Shireen is burned. Does he offer his support to the North, specifically Sansa and go searching for Rickon?
  194. Tormund will sit on the Iron throne, He is the Prophesied Azor Ahai, It is known. #TeamTormund

  195. IH8DANY:
    This is totally out of character, Selyse would definetly burn shireen but stannis? never, man i fucking hate how D&D are so biased to Dany and make her the Saintly Hero and how they Portray Stannis as a villain.

    I should think you’d be rejoicing in your H8 of Dany, personally. They’ve gone to such great lengths this past two seasons to depict Daenerys’ myriad mistakes that some of my friends who haven’t read the books but practically wielded big “Dany for President” signs are wondering what’s up with that.

  196. JP Dayne:
    The anti-stannis feeling in here is appalling.I guess D&D’s mission is accomplished.

    You can blame GRRM for my long anti-Stannis stance. A guy who uses religious fanatics for his political gain is no one I stand behind, beginning with Ronald Reagan (the first time I could vote) up to and including fictional characters like Stannis. But that’s cute how you tried to blame D&D.

  197. mariamb,

    They send him away, so he can’t watch this horribly twisted scene.he would do something,but this signalize the end of Mannis.

    I speculate on the matter.Maybe Stannis is well and truly done -> maybe dead in the finale.Anyway Davos will never ever support Stannis, after what happned.D&D could go along and bring Davos to Jon’s side.It looks like Sam will be there too.

  198. mariamb,

    I don’t know about the future, that’s TWOW material, but I’m pretty sure Davos will function as a sort of Pink Letter to Jon in 5×10. Of course, that’s more “plot function” than “character” but… again, that’s TWOW speculation I won’t venture into.

  199. I don’t know why people would necessarily be so upset about Stannis sacrificing Shireen. His entire choice is just a variation of the Philosophy 101 “trolley problem”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

    Stannis has always displayed the qualities of a utilitarian. In replacing the unknown “fat man” of the classic versions of the trolley problem with his own daughter, the writers have upped the ante quite a bit. The fact that Stannis has to judge from a position of extreme moral hazard makes his decision all the more difficult. The question of whether you would personally commit a relatively small evil in order to prevent a greater evil is as old as the hills, and there is no right answer. Watching the utilitarians who answer “yes” to this question being put to the test is just good story-telling.

  200. I think most of the pain the book readers feel about this (and I’ve also read the books) is because they don’t know what to expect any more. In other words, the same way show-only folks felt about Ned, the Red Wedding, the Viper, etc. The show kicks you in the teeth – it’s just that most of us book readers already had been kicked in the teeth when we read it before and haven’t had to feel the pain during the actual show itself.

    The rest of the pain is crying of the Stannis fanatics. Never understood them, and I kinda find it funny, actually.

  201. I remember from Season 3, Davos said that line about Gendry that even one boy wasn’t worth killing to gain a kingdom. Davos will be done with Stannis. I think they’ll keep him in Jon’s story going forward as an advisor/father figure type. They seemed to have a nice chemistry in their few scenes together.

  202. Renly’s Peach:

    I’ve been waiting for this day for years lemme tell ya. This is my second most anticipated day, right behind the day we see Stannis himself die.

    Then my journey of bitter vengeance will be complete and I’ll join my king in the afterlife.

    I chuckled. This thread needs more levity because I’m real close to calling in a therapist as is. This will be a long night. Anyone wanna meet me at the bar and share an exceedingly strong alcoholic drink? Or ten?

    I’m curious. Do they admit peaches into heaven?

  203. Simeon,

    Or it could just be “that scene” is a line crossed for some. Is it so hard to comprehend to you that some might find it so, considering what it involves?

  204. Organized a sick day for tomorrow, i have a feeling I’m going to need many many yeast laden beverages to deal with this

  205. HelloThere:
    I was insanely hyped for this episode.
    One of the greatest sequences ever is about to be on screen.
    But all this Stannis drama is going to ruin it all.
    The backlash will be ridiculous.

    No, the Stannis drama will not ruin anything at all, unless you let it ruin it. Stannis stans will try their hardest to be overdramatic on every possible corner of the internet. But just from Drogon’s arrival, the Daenerys scenes will live up to everything for me. It’s all about the mystical bond between her and Drogon for me, and the way he arrives, reinforces that for me. He has been that way from birth (remember how he sang on her shoulders and everyone else bowed before them the morning after his birth?) This scene will be all about that.

    Renly’s Peach: ’ve been waiting for this day for years lemme tell ya. This is my second most anticipated day, right behind the day we see Stannis himself die.

    Perhaps your second most anticipated day will come soon to a TV screen near you? 😀

  206. HelloThere,

    You’re exactly right. I like Stannis as much as I like any character from the books, but I never understood why Stannis had such a following.

    In truth, I think the Shireen scene isn’t going to leave as big a mark with general TV watchers as everyone seems to think. I saw one person saying Dany’s big moment is now ruined because of what happened to Shireen. Dear oh dear, the drama lol But I think the general public will be all over Drogon’s big surprise.

  207. If FTW ends with Jon’s resurrection, as most fans believe, than I could see Davos finding renewed hope in the Starks and deciding to back them instead.

  208. Davos’ Luck,

    the westeros.org people are fair. Personally I think there’s too many D&D apologists on this site. It’s much worse then any hate you’d get on westeros, especially when the hate is for realistic things like bad writing and poor decisions by the show runners.

  209. The thing with Stannis for me, is I never really “liked” Stannis but I respected him.

    I remember his argument with Davos about using magic to get the Iron Throne, he said something like. “The Targaryen’s used Dragons to conquer the seven kingdoms, dragons are magic.” And I was like, that’s true.

    Yes Stannis burned some relatives alive and other people and possibly was going to burn Gendry, but he knew it was wrong and was troubled by it and sought out Devos. Maybe he still was going to do it, but he knew it was wrong and was never forced to make that final decision thanks to Devos.

    So yes Stannis is a religious nutcase that will use dark magic to obtain his one and only desire but up until this point it was kind of forgivable and overall what he was doing was trying to secure his claim to the throne, that’s fine, I respect that.

    But going as far as he is rumored to go tonight, that’s horrible and beyond understanding. I think everyone will lose all respect for him, show watchers and fictional characters connected to Stannis as well. I can’t see Devos being cool with this or even his average soldier.

    Stannis is done, even if he wins, he’s done, put a fork in him.

  210. Regarding Jon and Davos, does anyone remember the Jon/Davos scene that was shown being shot in a behind the scenes video? I assumed it had been cut because it did not appear before Davos left the Wall, but now I am wondering if it will show up. Also, in an interview with Kit Harington, he mentions that the Jon/Davos relationship is something he found interesting, but all they have shown of that is Davos basically telling Jon that Stannis is the right man to follow. Sorry for not providing links, I cannot remember where all this stuff was.

  211. To be honest i do not think Stannis will die in the finale, as he still has a role to play in TWOW, which season 6 will be based upon, But then again, No one is safe,

  212. Simeon:

    The rest of the pain is crying of the Stannis fanatics.Never understood them, and I kinda find it funny, actually.

    Naah, they will find their inner utilitarian soon enough and come to the very philosophically defensible conclusion that Stannis made the right choice. It takes a Mannis to so personally and horribly commit the lesser evil, in order to prevent the even greater. Most wishy-washy pansies like Dany end up getting lots of people killed because they refuse such a burden.

    History is replete with people correctly making similar decisions, such as Truman’s decision to use atomic weapons on Japan. Hundreds of thousands died, many quite horribly, because Truman signed a peice of paper….and many millions lived.

  213. Valaquen,

    Valaquen, I understand your point, you’re right… Mirri was ctually doing sth good… I didn’t like khal Drogo, by the way. But! I believe there is still a little difference… Shireen is an innocent bookish litte girl who hasn’t done anything towards anyone. So, it is more painful and morally wrong for Stannis to do that, it is more evil than burning a woman who killed Dany’s child and left her husband numb. But yes, people are hypocrites, they crave for things and feel disgusted but what they don’t get, sometimes. Still, Shireen’s horrific death would be a worse thing to happen.

  214. Bookwankers going ballistic. And in a week, we will be out of books.

    What a day. What a lovely day !

  215. It’s because people have grown kinda attached to Shireen over the last few seasons. Her and Davos are the only really good and likeable people on Team Dragonstone, and having to see her die like this (by her own parents no less) is a bitter pill to swallow.

    It won’t “ruin” the show of course but it will be very tragic and difficult to watch, and will turn fan opinions firmly against Stannis. So no matter who wins the upcoming battle at Winterfell, the audience will lose.

  216. Brenjen,

    I hope Stannis doesn’t die, the actor who plays him has a powerful a presence as Charles Dance, that guy is awesome, every scene he just owns it.

  217. The main issue I have is not necessarily that Shireen gets burned, even though it seems like unnecessary shock value, but that they have Stannis go along with it and show no emotion or remorse. After that nice scene with Stannis and Shireen in E4 it looks even more like cheap shock value to upset the audience. Who cares about the Battle for Winterfell now, it is one monster(Stannis) vs another(Boltons).

    They could have had Melisandre sacrifice Shireen against Stannis’s will therefor they get their shocking scene without ruining Stannis. I assume they didn’t want to do that because they need Stannis and Mel to remain together and didn’t want to turn him against her. There was a way around that, she could have convinced him after the fact that is was something that needed to be done so he eventually forgives her. It wouldn’t be perfect but it certainly wouldn’t look as bad as him going along with it.

    This totally going to overshadow Dany’s big scene that everybody has been looking forward to.

  218. Xanth,

    Then why are you here,have you ever thought that all this ‘bad writing” stuff is in your head and you all are still obsessed about the books ? It must suck being your kind,hate and bitterness is all you know .

  219. It’s interesting that in the Inside the Episode

    D&D reference “When George told us about this scene” when talking about Shireen burning

    I wonder how that’s going to work out in TWOW, but it’ll be funny if all the book purist shitstorm that’ll happen is about a scene

    from the books
  220. flintwielder:
    Bookwankers going ballistic. And in a week, we will be out of books.

    What a day. What a lovely day !

    Where?

    If you are going to flagrantly insult people, at least back it up.

    Xanth:
    Davos’ Luck,

    the westeros.org people are fair. Personally I think there’s too many D&D apologists on this site. It’s much worse then any hate you’d get on westeros, especially when the hate is for realistic things like bad writing and poor decisions by the show runners.

    It’s always funny when people come in and make your point for you right after you argue it, isn’t it?

  221. Salvatore Leone:
    Xanth,

    Then why are you here,have you ever thought that all this ‘bad writing” stuff is in your head and you all are still obsessed about the books ? It must suck being your kind,hate and bitterness is all you know .

    Oh, Salvatore comes in and scores an own-goal for Xanth as well! Keep the insults flowing…and keep making his point.

    And seriously, you are defending crap like Dorne or fifty of the best Ironborn warriors fleeing from dogs?

  222. Renly’s Peach,

    magic?? then what was last episode??? what about this episode with the pits, where the scene has been promised to be one of the most incredible scenes on the show?

    as for the prophesies, D&D have said endless times that they would have loved to showcase the prophesies in the books especially what happened in the house of the undying the way it was in the book. one of them even said that that was one of his fav parts of the book but they couldnt do so because they had a very limited budget during the early seasons.

  223. I agree with JamesL. This is some Vince Russo-level Swerve type crap just for shock value.

  224. HonestAbe:
    Stannis’s beard looks so glorious in that spoilerish clip

    Agreed! Not quite Tormund level, but pretty good for a southerner!

  225. And I really hope they don’t leave Jon’s “death” as a cheap cliffhanger like GRRM did in the books. After E9 people are going to start getting really sick of all this bleakness and sadism, in fact they already are, ending Jon’s story this season with him being stabbed to death might be the finale straw. They need to show the aftermath of “FTW”. I’m not getting my hope up though because D&D seem to love to wallow in the bleakness and sadism so they probably think Jon being stabbed to death is a cool cliffhanger to end the season with.
  226. JamesL,

    Since it’s supposedly going to “break the internet”, imagine whatever would piss you off the most… that’s probably what will happen. LOL

  227. To all the people railing on about the Shireen scene for not being in the books, I’m pretty sure now that it’s actually adapted from TWOW

  228. Chad Brick,

    So,two scenes across 5 seasons ? I can easily point more trash from the books if i wanted to,especially the last two turds and you haven’t proved shit,keep thinking your some kind of intellectual and i will continue not giving a fuck .

  229. The only way Stannis can redeem himself now is if he starts sacrificing those who are leaking all these damn spoilers.
  230. JamesL,

    When Stannis realizes it was all for nothing…Dillane will knock it out of the park. This is Greek Tragedy.

    This is the one change that I feel was not done for shock value.

  231. JamesL,

    Yup, let´s treat ourselves to some torture porn with Jeyne Poole so we can lighten up that bleak D&D mess.

  232. Chad Brick,

    Can we now separate Show Stannis from Book Stannis? I’m pretty sure none of the Stannis’ “fanatics” will excuse this scene, especially since it doesn’t happen in the books… where the fanatics come from.

  233. HelloThere,

    According to him, they do, in the Inside the Episode. Though I didn’t know that had also leaked this week.

    Interesting if true. Some people will have to eat their words I guess. They won’t, of course. They’ll just assume “it will make sense as written by GRRM.” Oookay…

  234. fly on the Wall,

    Oh I hope this is true!

    Overall if the audience now has both Stannis and the Boltons as threats to Sansa that suggests that episode 10 may have some badass Sansa moments. It also raises the suspense to her escaping as well.

    And Brienne will kill Stannis.

  235. fly on the Wall:
    To all the people railing on about the Shireen scene for not being in the books, I’m pretty sure now that it’s actually adapted from TWOW

    Are we to assume that STANNIS burns Shireen alive on the march to Winterfell in TWOW?

  236. fly on the Wall,

    Did he really say that?! Wow, what if it is from the books? I wonder if he knew they would get backlash so he made sure to mention “when GRRM told us about this scene”.

  237. Stannis was my backup king if Jon doesn’t make it. No more. Stannis, you are on my shit list!

  238. HelloThere,

    Apparently on HBO Go it’s released with the episode. So that’s very possible then.

    That would quell some of the outrage, I think. Or just transfer it on to GrrM as well as D and D.

  239. Gatsby:

    Honestly, I’m glad I found out now. Would have had a hard time going to sleep afterwards. I have work tomorrow.
    I felt so bad I’m watching the actress sing the “Long Song” from Dr. Who at the Prom:
    “Rest now, my warrior…”.

  240. Stannis could not be a threat to Sansa, he needs the North at his side, and i Sincerely doubt Brienne will kill Stannis, i am thinking the Opposite..

  241. Morgoth,

    You don’t think so? I’d say on an average day they are much more fair then what i’ve seen in the comments section here. Some of the stuff here is pretty ridiculous, especially on this particular article.

  242. fly on the Wall:
    To all the people railing on about the Shireen scene for not being in the books, I’m pretty sure now that it’s actually adapted from TWOW

    That’d be a pretty amazing feat for Stannis since he’s near Winterfell and she’s at the Wall in the books.

  243. I posted this in the Episode 9 Preview thread as speculation. “It’s a horrible to think about but I have been worried about Shireen’s fate since Red Velvet told Stannis at the end of season 2, “you will betray the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear, and it will all be worth it.” My fear for Shireen intensified last season when Mel told Selyse that “the Lord needs” Shireen. I am going to be really devastated if poor Shireen is harmed. I’m pretty sure it’s inevitable that Shireen isn’t long for this world. It’s going to be horrifying when something bad happens to her. 🙁 Poor Shireen.”

    Seems like Shireen’s fate was sealed since the end of Season 2. This won’t happen in the next two books, I hope.
  244. Salvatore Leone:
    Tori Targaryen,

    I don’t know,considering all the leaks today,i will believe anyone,even if they say that Jon Snow will turn into a whale .

    Obviously a Beluga.

    With red eyes.

    He and Ghost can high five flipper to paw in the Shivering sea.

  245. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    How about this badass Queen in Meereen? Our best chance for better future.I just can’t see Jon sitting on that ugly thing.He will be Aemon 2.0.

  246. Let’s try to curb this WotW-versus-Westeros-ism, please. Just a humble request. I already regret saying what I did about Westeros.org being too down on the show the one time I checked out the site; it’s the truth and I stand by it, but it’s not like “our” site doesn’t have some strange creatures too. I think the problem with both sites is probably that once one black-and-white philosophy (“this show is perfect” or “this show is filth”) becomes pervasive, it becomes addictive. Bandwagoning on either end for the sake of a kind of fanatical zealotry isn’t the healthiest thing to do, and it totally happens both ways.

    I don’t think this show has ever had an episode that was lower than a 6 or 6.5 on the ol’ rating scale, myself, and I don’t think that’ll change tonight, either, but I respect that some people might even think it’s never had one higher. And plenty of folks on both overall ends of the spectrum are capable of pointing out the exceptions in their perspective — “oh, well, Hardhome was really good, actually” and “huh, I gotta admit, The Dead Lands didn’t do it for me” — without converting to some fabled internet opinion magic deity and insisting everyone else convert or die. 🙂

    We should keep such binaries to the Binars, I say.

  247. mariamb,

    I’d like that as well. It would make an interesting parallel to Dany’s acquiring of Tyrion as an advisor, and I’d always gotten the sense that if Stannis bit the dust that Jon would end up taking charge of Team Dragonstone, or what’s left of it.
  248. Luka Nieto,

    I’m pretty sure they are upset over the fact that Stannis is getting along with it. Assuming you have read the sample chapters from TWOW, can you see Stannis doing such a thing because he is desperate on his march?

  249. Tori Targaryen,

    Hmm… I don’t know if you saw, BUT PROVIDING LINKS TO LEAKED CONTENT WILL GET YOU BANNED. Plus you already know the website–it was just HBO Go. But you can see for yourself soon enough.

  250. I was never somebody recognisable on here but I’ve spent the better part of these past 5 years enjoying each day being on this site and reading the back and fourths of everybody. This is a great community. I’ve invested much time and money into my Ice & Fire fandom. Most of us have. Obviously I picked my favourite character for my name on here. I probably only posted 30 times though. This all being said it is regretful that I say I’m no longer into this story. Maybe we are all wrong. In which case I’ll stay. But Shireen dying, let alone by the hands of Stannis and some pyre, is not for me. Shireen deserved much better than this. I wish you all the best of luck in the wars to come.

  251. Greenjones,

    No, it would just quell some of the outrage. It is GRRM’s story and characters so he can do whatever he wants without causing fan backlash. Similar to outrage about sexual violence in the show and the silence from fans about the pervasiveness of it in the books.

  252. Ironborn:
    Luka Nieto,

    I’m pretty sure they are upset over the fact that Stannis is getting along with it. Assuming you have read the sample chapters from TWOW, can you see Stannis doing such a thing because he is desperate on his march?

    Honestly, I could.

    Because George is a marathon writer if ever there were one. You read the things he says in that sample chapter, and to me, it clicks as a red herring. He’s not capable of such acts, supposedly, at that time; he’s giving the heroics and he’s consciously meaning every bit of it. But George is a marathon writer, and there’s so much room for things to change in Stannis’ life over the course of the rest of his chapters.

  253. Hodor’s Bastard,

    Yes! And I find it much more calming to think about the issue of dragon bonds and mastery than to consider what might actually be happening in tonight’s episode.

    (runs away singing La La La as loudly as she can)

  254. JamesL,

    It was on HBO Go earlier. I’m afraid it’s been pulled until the actual, not-accidental release.

  255. LaughingStorm,

    Uhh,you do know Stannis will return to the Wall at some point if he wins,also maybe he has a different reason for burning her in the books,like the Lord of Light giving him power to fight the WWs or something .

  256. Well, off the topic of GoT.

    WTF is up with HBO this season? Amateur night at the Apollo?

    Maybe you can’t blame them for the first 4 episodes being leaked, or maybe you can for trusting to many people with them and not putting the property security checks in place to prevent what happened.

    But now this? How the hell do tools on IMDb get all these episodes ahead of time and have the ability to screencap this stuff?

    I personally don’t mind to much, lucky for me I am a bookreader and kinda know whats going to happen.

    But next season everyone is going to be in the dark and not really have a freaking clue to what is going to happen.

    So at that point if HBO fucks up like they have this season it will most definitely soften the emotional impact of watching and learning about storylines falling into place live.

    HBO needs to do a major overhaul of their practices of protecting unreleased episodes in the future from being hacked and spread out throughout the net before it airs.

    There’s not much they can do after it airs, but damn keep a lid on it before its release please!

  257. Mr Fixit: Do I sense a fellow NextGen fan? I heartily approve.

    Big fan of all five shows, actually. But that was a once-in-a-lifetime niche opportunity, haha.

  258. Arthur,

    This happened with the Walking Dead plenty of times too because the shows are too popular and unfortunately there are people working on these shows that simply don’t give a fuck and leak stuff out . It happens with some movies too .

  259. I wonder: will Davos or someone ever bring up the fact that Balon is still alive, thus casting doubt on Mel’s little blood ritual and by extension her magical abilities in general? I feel like it should at least be mentioned before Stannis runs off to sacrifice his own daughter, for the sake of drama if nothing else.

  260. The Onion Knight,

    You chose a great name. I don’t blame you for throwing in the towel tho. I have a feeling We’re heading towards the thickest and darkest part of the story. The horrors of the wars to come is only beginning. :/

  261. Fan (over)reactions during season 5:

    Episodes 1-5: The season is OK. Maybe a bit slow, but not too bad.
    Episode 6: OMG!!! WORST SEASON EVER!!! GoT IS RUINED!!! HORRIBLE FANFICTION!
    Episode 7: OK, season pretty good, I guess.
    Episode 8: OMG!!! BEST SEASON EVER!!!! F-CKING AMAZING!!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!!
    Episode 9: OMG!!!! WOSRT SEASON EVER! GoT IS RUINED!!! HORRIBLE FANFICTION!

  262. Robb Snow:
    I wonder: will Davos or someone ever bring up the fact that Balon is still alive, thus casting doubt on Mel’s little blood ritual and by extension her magical abilities in general? I feel like it should at least be mentioned before Stannis runs off to sacrifice his own daughter, for the sake of drama if nothing else.

    I’m not totally up-to-date on everything, but wasn’t there a rumor about Yara appearing in the finale or something? She may blurt that he’s dead one way or the other. But… well, that’d be a bit late for what you’re pointing out, of course, yeah.

  263. Simeon:
    Fan (over)reactions during season 5:

    Episodes 1-5: The season is OK.Maybe a bit slow, but not too bad.
    Episode 6: OMG!!!WORST SEASON EVER!!! GoT IS RUINED!!!HORRIBLE FANFICTION!
    Episode 7: OK, season pretty good, I guess.
    Episode 8: OMG!!! BEST SEASON EVER!!!!F-CKING AMAZING!!!!UNBELIEVABLE!!!!
    Episode 9: OMG!!!! WOSRT SEASON EVER!GoT IS RUINED!!! HORRIBLE FANFICTION!

    True.

  264. Luka Nieto,

    Big difference. Edric was Robert’s bastard. Shireen his own daughter. Also, it’s one thing to have intent and it’s a completely different matter to follow through with it

  265. So is there any chance that

    this is a glammer and they swapped Shireen for Selyse/random extra?
  266. Salvatore Leone:
    LaughingStorm,

    Uhh,you do know Stannis will return to the Wall at some point if he wins,also maybe he has a different reason for burning her in the books,like the Lord of Light giving him power to fight the WWs or something .

    And Mance could be Rhaegar. Burning Shireen isn’t the problem, its who burns her that is. If Mel did this like I think she will after reading the Pink Letter it would make sense not Stannis.

  267. LaughingStorm,

    True. But Stannis is a dead man anyway. Fuck him. Here is my ranking of potential monarchs now:

    1. Jon
    2. Tyrion
    3. Night’s King
    4. Dany

  268. Jeff O’Connor: Big fan of all five shows, actually. But that was a once-in-a-lifetime niche opportunity, haha.

    I applaud your quick wit. We have to make the best of any opportunity that presents itself.

  269. Turncloak:
    Luka Nieto,

    Big difference. Edric was Robert’s bastard. Shireen his own daughter. Also, it’s one thing to have intent and it’s a completely different matter to follow through with it

    I gotta say, fringe perspective here but I grew up in an orphanage system without family relations and it always kind of makes me flinch a little bit when people say a man is guiltier of sin when it’s his own flesh and blood. Within the context of the lore I totally get it and respect it and all that jazz. But from a removed stance, killing a kid is killing a kid. Both depictions were game for it.

  270. This is why a hate leaks. Many people is speaking shit of the episode before it even airs. People who see that is going to watch the ep like “this is shit” and they will think its shit. I think we should relax and just enjoy the episode, which i think it´s going to be fantastic. I´ve read the books and I love them, but I also love the show, and I think that many of the ones who post in this site think as I do. Those who want to blame shit on D&D were praising them a week ago, so stop being childish haters like some of westeros.org (I also like that website but sometimes they are really harsh and annoying towards the show).

    Just enjoy, and if you don´t like the episode or the changes, no problem, but stop following others opinions.

  271. Turncloak,

    That’s obscene. Killing a child is killing a child. Morally there is no difference. And Stannis didn’t stop himself with Edric, he didn’t decide not to go through with it; Davos saved Edric behind Stannis’ back, for which Stannis was willing to execute Davos.

    So much white-washing with Stannis… I enjoy the character, but come on. He has done this before, or tried to, anyway.

  272. Okay I watched the clip now, I really wish there was at least tears swelling up in Stannis’s eyes, I think the scene would be much more powerful if Stannis showed some reluctant emotion about what was happening. I think it is clear they are going for a Greek Tragedy situation here. This sacrifice will not work and he will be devastated it was all for nothing.

  273. Wow this article is awesome…

    According to it, the Night’s King is Jon Snows distant ancestor!

    “Meet the Night’s King. In the books, here’s merely a figure of legend, a former Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch who fell in love with (and gave his soul to) a beautiful female White Walker. He was eventually defeated by the combined might of the Starks, the Night’s Watch, and the Wildlings. But Thrones has shifted this figure from myth to actual character, dubbing him the leader of the White Walkers. If he shares his origin with his book counterpart, then he is actually Jon Snow’s distant ancestor.”

    That’s so awesome! Here is the link.

    http://www.bustle.com/articles/88177-9-answers-about-game-of-thrones-white-walkers-so-you-can-finally-know-more-than-jon

  274. On imdb there is a thread called Satannis Unappreciation.Well that escalated quickly.

    Just one question.

    Liam did one interview (I found it) and he mentioned one scene of Red Wedding proportions.Do you think this scene with poor Shireen is the one he’s refering to?Because if not, Davos presence at Wall make suddenly even more sense.If it’s like a numerous deaths.I swear, if they kill Wun Wun.Eghhh. 🙁

  275. Arthur,

    The White Walkers in the show aren’t pretty, but they don’t look like skeletons. More like… slightly mummified ancient ice people.

  276. Luka Nieto,

    I am just saying, the book version of how The Others look, according to GRRM, are like those Irish Faery Sidhe things, but with glassy/icy Skin.

    And I can see how that Night’s King guy was tricked or whatever to give her his soul.

  277. Luka Nieto,

    I agree but I also “cautiously” hold (held?) onto a Stannis arc that involved him becoming less reliant on voodoo. Did he practice voodoo when he defeated the Greyjoys during the ironborn rebellion? It’s really not a “redemptive” arc or “white-washing” of Stannis…just some movement in a non-voodoo, self-reliant direction would be interesting. He is supposed to be this incredible commander, dammit.

    Then again, maybe he is indeed a selfish, narcissistic asshole. But I read him a bit differently in ADwD.

    Maybe there is something “absolute & intentional” about his initial “saving of Shireen” that we don’t know?

  278. Simeon:
    Fan (over)reactions during season 5:

    Episodes 1-5: The season is OK.Maybe a bit slow, but not too bad.
    Episode 6: OMG!!!WORST SEASON EVER!!! GoT IS RUINED!!!HORRIBLE FANFICTION!
    Episode 7: OK, season pretty good, I guess.
    Episode 8: OMG!!! BEST EPISODE EVER!!!!F-CKING AMAZING!!!!UNBELIEVABLE!!!!
    Episode 9: OMG!!!! WOSRT SEASON EVER!GoT IS RUINED!!! HORRIBLE FANFICTION!

    Atleast get that right.

  279. White Walkers look like ice humanoids with armor to me… not mummies… not zombies. I guess you just see what you want to see.

  280. Arthur,

    I dunno. Perhaps the Others we’ve seen in the show aren’t “pure” like the Night’s Queen might’ve been. They’re just humans who were transformed into White Walkers through unknown magic, accounting for their strange looks.

    Just a thought.

  281. GeekFurious,

    I didn’t mean mummies exactly… Just sort of ancient ice people who are so old that they are slightly mummified, if that makes sense?

    My point was they look dignified, not like skeleton monsters.

  282. I guess I missed the part about how GoT was supposed to be an uplifting, gentle, ‘good people always win’ type of story from now on….

  283. Stella,

    Good idea. I will run away as well and at least have a good dinner. Have a good episode, all!

    (I’m too jaded to do the “la-la-la” thing though) 🙂

  284. I don’t think some people here realize that the show isn’t made to please them, it’s telling a story. It’s kind of disappointing how certain people can’t distinguish that simple fact. Plenty of men and women were upset to see Robb and Cat dying, but this doesn’t change that the story went on with every other character. Much more terrible things happen every day in the real world and life still always goes on. If you can’t take a character’s death, then you should probably move on to something else.

  285. Zalos:
    I don’t think some people here realize that the show isn’t made to please them, it’s telling a story. It’s kind of disappointing how certain people can’t distinguish that simple fact. Plenty of men and women were upset to see Robb and Cat dying, but this doesn’t change that the story went on with every other character. Much more terrible things happen every day in the real world and life still always goes on. If you can’t take a character’s death, then you should probably move on to something else.

    The thing is that the book readers already knew Robb and Cat were dying, so that softened the blow for them. There is no such softening for Shireen — so finally bookreaders and showwatchers are in the same boat, with regards to dealing with a painful death.

  286. Zalos,

    I think you misunderstand people. The problem isn’t that the show isn’t appealing to everything they want, people want Rob Stark not too die? Oh well, it happened, but at least it made sense and the story was well written. People aren’t mad about the certain scene that happens this episode, they are mad that it makes no sense, is poorly written and is there purely for walking dead level shock value. In fact that whole sequence is pretty ridiculous, right down to Ramsey and his 20 men. The point is that when the story is bad, its really damn bad. D&D are great at adapting, their show original material a majority of the time doesn’t make sense and is, in many ways, a bad story.

  287. Xanth,

    Why? Explain to me the ridiculousness, explain to me how it is badly written, please, without appealing to the books, opinions or exaggerations.

    It’s funny the claim that D&D are bad at making stuff up, just after last week, which was one of the many examples of D&D improving on the source material by tightening the story and having a main character be part of all main events.

  288. Luka Nieto:

    The White Walkers in the show aren’t pretty, but they don’t look like skeletons. More like… slightly mummified ancient ice people.

    Huh, to me their faces look almost tree-like, like they’re made of bark.

  289. I wonder if HBO anticipated the uproar this would cause and deliberately leaked the episode as to armour some people for the event? That way for those who know they won’t be as jarred by it and will consider the Dany scene even better than they would initially?

  290. Pigeon: I guess I missed the part about how GoT was supposed to be an uplifting, gentle, ‘good people always win’ type of story from now on….

    Hey now, the very end of the episode is quite …. ahem …. uplifting! Up, up and away! 😉 🙂

  291. Xanth:
    Zalos,

    I think you misunderstand people. The problem isn’t that the show isn’t appealing to everything they want, people want Rob Stark not too die? Oh well, it happened, but at least it made sense and the story was well written.

    It makes perfect sense if you are not Stannis the Mannis fanatic.

    This scene has been built up from S2.

  292. Will spoiler it as not sure what we can talk abtou and what not!

    If things go the way they seem to be going then I must say I’m disappointed as it appears to be another attempt at shock value over story and if the battle of Winterfell happens then the viewer will hate both sides and not have as much interest in who wins.
    It also appears they are now pretty much just setting up Stannis to be killed by Brienne and trying to get the viewers on her side more.
    Although it doesn’t look good, I think she may survive. That guy pushing his way through the crowd must have some role, possibly to tell Stanis that Ramsay is attacking or some other such news. I also feel as though there needs to be seperation between Stannis and Melisandre as she needs to go to the wall so his stopping the sacrifice wold cause a pretty major wedge between them. Interesting as to where Davos is during this incident as I doubt he’d sit and let it happen. Has he been sent away (was the picture of him giving Shireen a going away present evidence of that).

    We shall see but I worry D&D may have gone too far this time and I must admit it’s the first time I’ve thought that.

    On a sidenote, does anyone find this leak pretty weird? I mean like some have said it may be deliberate to soften the blow but it also may be deliberate to swerve people. Either way they either need to tighten things up for next season or stop with the bullshit!

  293. Luka Nieto,

    Stannis is burning his heir. Even if he were to win the Iron Throne, there wouldn’t be any Baratheons to follow him. It makes as much sense as for Stannis to burn himself.
    And just because some of the OC has worked, the not-so-great show creations are not improvements in retrospect. Just because the battle at Hardhome was enjoyable, does not make the Sand Snake’s Attack, Yara’s dreadfort trip, etc. good writing.

  294. I am not reading any of these comments, but damn, I am almost afraid to watch

    Fuck me…….

  295. Xanth:
    Zalos,

    I think you misunderstand people. The problem isn’t that the show isn’t appealing to everything they want, people want Rob Stark not too die? Oh well, it happened, but at least it made sense and the story was well written. People aren’t mad about the certain scene that happens this episode, they are mad that it makes no sense, is poorly written and is there purely for walking dead level shock value. In fact that whole sequence is pretty ridiculous, right down to Ramsey and his 20 men. The point is that when the story is bad, its really damn bad. D&D are great at adapting, their show original material a majority of the time doesn’t make sense and is, in many ways, a bad story.

    Yet again, whiners logic is = I don’t like it, so it’s poorly written, stupid, nonsensical, blahblah. No arguments, no elaborating, just ‘edgy’ words to feel like a professional critic.

  296. Reema,

    Stannis isn’t sterile.

    Even if Stannis couldn’t produce more heirs, if Mel’s vooodo is real, this isn’t a bad decision, tactically, coldly. They’re all (including Stannis and Shireen) going to die there of cold and hunger. Killing Shireen will solve that, according to Melisandre. Stannis is all about the “greater good”; so it makes sense. As for morally… I’d hope for Stannis to tell the Red Fanatic to go fuck herself, it’d be thoroughly satisfying, but this is more in character, unfortunately.

  297. Darkstar:
    I am not reading any of these comments, but damn, I am almost afraid to watch

    Fuck me…….

    This comment escalated quickly!

  298. Luka Nieto,

    No, but it’s been established in the show that Selyse has only had stillborns and miscarriages and impregnanting Melisandre will kill him. Plus he’s not getting any younger. Would it be more resonable for him to adopt Gendry???

    Edit: Ok I see your point, though burning Shireen still renders Stannis’ campaign useless.

  299. Joshua Atreides,

    HBO did not purposely leak anything, this information came from the same person that leaked spoilers for episode 7 and 8. Episode 7 and 8 leaks didn’t get as much attention because there were no shocking scenes. This time she also uploaded video as proof. Her cable provider uploads the episodes a day early on demand.

  300. Reema,

    Kings have never set aside their sterile wives to produce heirs. Of course. This is such a silly argument…

  301. Reema:
    Luka Nieto,

    No, but it’s been established in the show that Selyse has only had stillborns and miscarriages and impregnanting Melisandre will kill him. Plus he’s not getting any younger. Would it be more resonable for him to adopt Gendry???

    If he dies at WF, he will not have to worry about IT, heir,…

    And if he don’t want do die….. Well…

  302. mau,

    Exactly. Yes. Shireen is his heir. We get that.

    However, if you believe Melisandre (and Stannis does), the situation is this: either Shireen dies in a sacrifice; or Stannis, Shireen, Selyse and the whole army die of cold and hunger after Ramsay’s attack. Again: the greater good… which in this case isn’t very good, neither tactically nor morally, but it’s better than the alternative.

  303. Luka Nieto,

    However, if you believe Melisandre (and Stannis does), the situation is this: either Shireen dies in a sacrifice; or Stannis, Shireen, Selyse and the whole army die of cold and hunger after Ramsay’s attack. Again: the greater good… which in this case isn’t very good, neither tactically nor morally, but it’s better than the alternative, at least tactically.

    Yea, you can rationalize the decision all you want but the show chose to concoct the entire situation. They didn’t have to go down this route to tell the story.

  304. About FTW:

    They could show Jon’s eyes going white and warging into ghost. But personally this has always seemed like a bit of an useless solution to me.

    I think Jon will simply be injured and he will recover by conventional means. He might be in a coma for a while like Bran was, and while he is in a coma Bran could communicate with him, just like Bloodraven did with Bran.

    The other solution is to use Jon’s, Taragyen heritage where he is burned on a pyre but stands up out of the flames. This seems unlikely.

    Looking at the most recent photos of Kit Harington, it really seems like he is growing his beard out. That look would work with someone who has been on their sick bed for a while or someone who is in a coma. Therefore I believe Jon will be gravely injured but he will not die, or need resurrection.

  305. JamesL:
    Luka Nieto,

    Yea, you can rationalize the decision all you want but the show chose to concoct the entire situation. They didn’t have to go down this route to tell the story.

    Why don’t?

  306. JamesL,

    Of course not. They didn’t need to be a war at all either. Any drama, actually. Some of you forget this is a story they are telling, a drama, not a real History. I don’t WANT Shireen to be burnt. She’s one of my favorite characters. In fact, I’d love Stannis’ blackened heart to grow so that he becomes a full-fledged human. But those are the wishes of a fan, and thankfully I’m not in charge of writing this story.

    Also, how am I “rationalizing”? That’s the moral scenario they’re presenting. It’s not my headcanon. It’s a classic case; the trolley problem. It’s been in stories since the dawn of time —the concept of the “greater good”, which Stannis has embodied in this show since the beginning (in his mind, anyway.) This is what the show is presenting, the conflict that Stannis has to dealt with: Either I kill my only daughter and heir or she, alongside I, my wife and everyone else in my army dies, which —if Melisandre is right and I must be king when the Long Night comes— means everyone in Westeros eventually dies as well. “What’s the life of my daughter and heir against life itself?” That’s the question they’re presenting. It’s a worthwhile question, not just a cheap shock. It’s not even a shock… they’ve been building this up since frigging season two.

  307. This is natural end of story for a man who killed his own brother using dark magic. He is a monster. A fanatic.

  308. It’s weird when people say ‘didn’t have to’ or ‘that was unnecessary’. According to whom?

    When writers/show-runners create stories, they don’t literally have a gun to their head. There is no being forced to take a story a certain way because it’s the only path to take. They make deliberate choices as to what to portray, what to cut, what to expand upon, which characters to spotlight and so on.

    Obviously they thought that their choices made the most sense dramatically for the show. What would impact the audience most. We can disagree with their creative choices, but in the end, they had their reasons and did think it was a good choice to go that way – based on what the show has already established.

    Unless, it’s once again a ‘they didn’t do it like that in the books’ thing. Which is not a good enough argument, in my opinion.

    Does it make sense in the show itself? That’s a better question. And we’ve had foreshadowing for this since season 2.

  309. TheTouchOfFrost,

    I don’t buy his duty demagogue.

    I am a Targaryen supporter and I think that Robert was usurper, and Stannis is even more.

    In my oppinion Baratheons are thieves and they don’t have right to IT.

  310. mau,

    But you don’t deny it’s existence. There are very few true monsters in this show/universe. The only ones I think who are truly evil because they enjoy it are Gregor Clegane and perhaps Roose Bolton. Maybe Joffrey too, but I think he was just a spoilt brat amped up to 100.

  311. TheTouchOfFrost,

    Maybe I was speaking from my own personal experience, but any man who can kill his own blood for power or duty or some other bs is a monster.

    Gregor Clegane didn’t kill Sandor. Roose didn’t kill Ramsay. Yet.

  312. Hey, you guys! GRRM has a new post in his Not-a-Blog.

    Oh wait, he doesn’t mention Stannis or Dany or Episode 9 at all. Instead, he’s talking about all the books he’s reading and the shows he’s binge-watching. Carry on, and don’t expect TWOW until around 2018 or so…

  313. Dnis,
    LOL

    He enjoys life . I do not mind that.

    And I’m not interested in his books any more. I will read them, ofc, but I don’t care.

  314. mau,

    But there is reason for what he’s doing other than enjoyment. I’m not saying I agree with it or consider it a valid reason but there is still reasoning.. the same as Roose I guess . Gregor enjoys the things he does. The systematic rape and murder of most everyone he comes across when he has no reason to makes him a true monster. Heck, he even made me feel sorry for Vargo Hoat when he got his hands on him!
    On the flipside, Tyrion killed his father. Does that make him a monster?

  315. mau,

    I hope not.Jon deserves something better.Irone Thrones is not a happy place and he will be even more miserable.Dany maybe.

  316. mau,

    yeah, pretty much my feeling now too.

    I get the conflict, its as old as ages. Its just hard to see this happen; I know this is a medieval based society and such choices were made, but its hard for us to deal with when talking about a child. I keep having to remember that George and D&D have had conversations about wha tthe end game was going to be. so I am assuming that they figured this out to bring the story to the close it was meant to be. Not saying its right, but wondering if we should give this a chance.

    BTW Mance was a king, why didn’t they just use him? They were burning him anyway….

  317. Five more minutes.

    For the last three seasons I’ve had a group come over every episode, which is great because while HBO is free at my complex the reception has always been inexplicably dreadful. Occasional skips and stutters, standard-definition with lots of unfortunate fuzz factor, the whole nine yards. But a friend would bring their laptop and we’d go with their Verizon Xfinity account to avoid that. Perfect pristine quality. Unfortunately everyone is busy tonight (of all nights!) so I’m stuck with poor picture and audio for tonight. Alas. Argh.

    But it’ll still be Game of Thrones and regardless of this leak I bet I’ll still dig it. End sounds fantastic regardless. I look forward to rewatching in superior fidelity later.

    Heeeeere we go.

  318. TheTouchOfFrost:
    mau,

    But there is reason for what he’s doing other than enjoyment.

    His reasons are problem for me.

    I think that Stannis is a great character, he is interesting, because of his dark moments, but I don’t think that he is better person than Tywin or Roose.

    On the flipside, Tyrion killed his father. Does that make him a monster?

    In some way, yes, but Tyrion’s reasons were more legitimate in my opinion.

  319. Luka Nieto,

    Of course, this has been building since S2. That doesn’t mean that it can’t still be shocking, particularly after their sweet scene and discussion about greyscale. Is it a “cheap” shock? Well, that’s up to each viewer to decide for themselves.

    Stannis believes that his rationale – “the life of my daughter v. life itself” – is correct, as you point out. It is horrific but it can be a question for discussion. Another question for discussion is the entire nature of parenting in this story: parents who place their own self-determined quest ahead of their well-being of their children. This may be the most egregious example but Stannis isn’t alone.

  320. I honestly hope the Iron Throne gets melted into a useless pile of metal by one of Dany’s dragons. It’s done nothing for Westeros but cause unrelenting death and torment for the people. Kill it with fire.

  321. I hope this doesn’t turn out like Babylon 5-cramming a lot of stuff into a season (S6/GoT) for fear of cancellation. I think many fans will lose some interest when the series goes fully off the books…

  322. Cat of the Canals:
    I hope this doesn’t turn out like Babylon 5-cramming a lot of stuff into a season (S6/GoT) for fear ofcancellation. I think many fans will lose some interest when the series goes fully off the books…

    Season 4 was Babylon 5’s best, I think. What it did to Season 5 is another story though.

    GoT isn’t going to be fearing cancellation though.

  323. Robb Snow,

    That’s what Daenerys implied to Tyrion by “breaking the wheel”; breaking the system of warring Great Houses, including House Targaryen in her list, as it is crushing the smallfolk. She basically talks about ending feudalism, honestly (to be substituted for enlightened absolutism, one assumes.)

  324. ash,

    Or perhaps a better use for Renly…or either of the Greyjoys if he got hold of them…or even Master Aemon!

  325. ash:
    mau,

    BTW Mance was a king, why didn’t they just use him? They were burning him anyway….

    In the show, they said he was “king of lies”.

  326. I just want to say that I predicted exactly how the Shireen burning scene would play out back when the Episode 9 photos were released, Selyse unexpectedly losing her shit and all.

  327. urangutan21:
    Kells,

    It’s a CONSPIRACY,EVERYONE IS OUT TO GET STANNIS,seriously that’s exactly how you sound right now,he’s a FICTIONAL CHARACTER IN A FICTIONAL STORY,get over it ffs !

    Seriously? Haha…I didn’t realize he was fictional. Thanks for the heads up. It won’t be the first time a writer(s) has cast dark clouds around one character to boost the cause of another in the eyes of the viewer/reader. As a Stannis fan, it just bums me out. Simple as that. It is plain as day that he was never meant to be the “one true King” but it doesn’t mean I didn’t wish for it, as a viewer and reader. The path D&D seem to be taking leaves him without any possible redemption, even in my eyes, so my apologies if my poo-pooing of this direction has caused the caps lock on your keyboard to get a work out. Geesh.

  328. mau,

    Politically no but he has displayed love and mercy more than either of them. Unlike them he hasn’t had his loyalty and efforts rewarded so you can see how he has become bitter. Tywin has shown love for his wife and his sister and even his father and chlidren in a weird way. It’s just he has a very very tough love approach! Roose, well he seems devoid of emotion. Have yet to see him express any sort of emotion towards anyone. He only sees people for how he can use them including his own family.

  329. M,

    It’s all been a bit too obvious for me as they’ve not exactly been subtle with the hints. Was hoping it was a feign but I guess not.

  330. If Jon is coming from Eastwatch after returning Stannis’ ships, why are they North of the Wall?

  331. Also, I saw these bits from the episode 10 preview that I think are connected:

    There’s the shot of Brienne and Podrick approaching a stone doorway, looking at someone or something. There’s then a shot of Sansa standing with stone behind her saying “If I’m going to die, let it happen while there’s still some of me left.”

    Judging from the lighting on Sansa’s face and on Brienne and Pod in the scenes, I think that Pod and Brienne finally meet Sansa. So I suppose Brienne and/or Pod are telling her that her planned course of action–staying? Escaping?–will be risking her life, which leads to her answer.

  332. I’m genuinely out after using Stannis’ characterisation and poor Shirren for cheap shock value. I’m a hypocrite, I should have stopped watching after the showrunners treatment of Sansa.

  333. Awesome episode! Three epic episodes in a row! It’s sad there’s already only one left though.

    I hope that “sacrifice” turns out to be an extremely regrettable mistake on Stannis’ side of the plot. Poor Davos… And even more so: poor Shireen…

  334. Wow, Dany has a telepathic link to Drogon!

    She mentally called upon him and he came there breathing fire in a second!

    That was awesome!

  335. JamesL:
    Yea I know it sucks but you will all still be watching.

    Is it the same people threatening to quit who already quit 3 weeks ago?

  336. Never said so many “Fucks” and “Fuck you”s in a single hour in my life, and I generally knew what was coming. Fuck.

  337. mariamb,

    A

    nother question for discussion is the entire nature of parenting in this story: parents who place their own self-determined quest ahead of their well-being of their children. This may be the most egregious example but Stannis isn’t alone.

    This. How does that famous poem go? “They fuck you up, your ma and pa”?

  338. This episode was great. Maybe the leaks lowered my expectations, but I was pleasantly surprised. Stannis-lovers need to grow up.

  339. F*ck Stannis! And F*ck George for telling D&D that’s how Shireen dies!

  340. Robb Snow,

    I honestly hope the Iron Throne gets melted into a useless pile of metal by one of Dany’s dragons. It’s done nothing for Westeros but cause unrelenting death and torment for the people. Kill it with fire.

    Heh, I wonder if indeed this does happen at the end. No one is on the throne. People go back to how they are living without worrying about a leader. Not that it will help them – there is always someone who becomes a warlord and takes over some group or another. Chaos. And in the meantime, the WW walk the earth. mmmm

  341. Woah, so George actually planned this!? That’s what D&D said in the “Inside the Episode” segment.

  342. That was pretty fucking terrible CGI for Drogon. 🙁 A huge letdown and distracting to me, but my Unsullied husband didn’t mind, he was still excited.

  343. So, Stannis survives in the books, falls back to the Wall, and sacrifices Shireen to save the world? If not, D&D have some splaining to do.

  344. Beyond THAT scene…

    So nothing really happened in Dorne again. Meryn Trant is still breathing and likes very young women. Ugh!

    Daznak’s Pit was incredible. Glad that Jorah is back on the team. Tyrion saving Missandei made me happy in an otherwise very unhappy episode.

  345. Well, that was really scraping the bottom of the barrel this season D&D. Where is the logic? Stannis does not even have evidence that Gendry’s leeching worked yet. No Balon death. So how can it possibly follow that he would believe fully in Melisandre. He should have at least captured Yara and confirmed her father was dead before being able to justify it to himself. Spectacular set pieces are not making up for poor story telling for me.

  346. Why did I come into this thread. Was not expecting future book spoilers. Urgh.

    PS- I’m so tired of all these children who WILL NEVER WATCH THE SHOW AGAIN NU-UH! not because of quality, but because the story takes a turn they don’t like. Grow the fuck up. Jesus.

  347. I hope all the people vowing to quit the show and never watch again will do everyone a favor and actually quit.

    Oh and I’m glad that Stannis actually killed Shireen so now everyone can stop pretending he’s some sort of do-gooder.

  348. I am shell shocked after Shireen. Was Dany’s scene awesome? Fuck if I know.

    That was worse for me that the RW. Fucking Red Velvet better be dead by the end of this, and fucking Stannis deserves what he gets. Our Onion Knight better do something about this.

  349. Well, I really loved that episode.

    Of course Stannis burning his daughter was horrible but hey, that’s Stannis for you, a fanatic that will sacrifice anything to get what he thinks is his. Brainwashed by that Red Lady…

    Drogon was awesome, was it ‘The Avengers’ quality CGI, no. But was is freaking awesome for a TV show, yes!

  350. That was an incredible episode. That last sequence was brilliant.

    I’m tied up in knots about Shireen, though. But then of course I’m prepared for the “how can GoT do this?” comments from people who obviously haven’t been paying attention for the previous 48 episodes (thousands of people DIED AND TURNED UNDEAD LAST WEEK but why quibble…)

  351. Tori Targaryen,

    Because all the bits you mention are internal monologue and narration, and thus impossible to show onscreen.

    TV is a visual medium. It’s shocking that people haven’t hoisted that fact in yet after five years.

  352. As expected: Bookwankers going ballistic. Lulz. Only another week and your reign of terror will be over.

  353. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    So, Stannis survives in the books, falls back to the Wall, and sacrifices Shireen to save the world? If not, D&D have some splaining to do.

    Likely he sends a raven with orders?

  354. I actually thought Daznak’s Pit was pretty poor, especially when Dany just casually strolled up to Drogon and none of the Sons of the Harpy thought to attack her. And her riding a dragon. . . .I mean, they did the best that they could, but that stuff just doesn’t translate well onto TV.

  355. If anyone bothered to watch the “inside the episode” it is revealed that GRRM told D/D about this. It’s going to be in the books.

  356. Very good episode, Dorne still seems lacking somehow, but perhaps that’s just me. The Pit fighting was wonderful.

  357. The Stannis scene overshadows everything else. It’s the first change that legitimately pisses me off. I just can’t see Stannis doing that, especially for Winterfell. I guess we’ll see where he goes, but it sort of takes the emotional energy out of the Siege of Winterfell. It’s a battle of monsters. I guess we’re supposed to root for the White Walkers.

  358. While that scene with Shireen was truly gut wrenching, if you watch the inside the episode, this is a plot point that GRRM shared with D&D, so the book purists don’t have a leg to stand on here.

  359. Didn’t like that one. Weak writing and the theme was a downer. Pissed at Stannis. One of the worst things portrayed. Along with the running horse on fire.

    Plot holes galore. And its clear they’re not wrapping up virtually any storylines. They even added at least one with Mace Tyrell and this dumbass Iron Bank crap. We’re cliffhanged until next season on just about everyone’s story.

  360. For all the people losing their shit… if it hasn’t been said already in big giant flashing letters: Immediately watch the “Inside the Episode”.

    There is a clear implication that D&D are adapting

    straight from the pages of TWOW when Stannis burns Shireen. Benioff says “when George first told us about this it was one of those moments where i remember looking at Dan and it was just like gah it’s so horrible and so good in a story sense because it all comes together from the beginning. The very first time we saw Stannis and Melisandre they were sacrificing people on the beaches of Dragonstone. And it’s really all come to this… it all leads ultimately, fatally to Shireen’s sacrifice”
  361. I wrote a little haiku about this episode:

    No no no no no
    No no no no no no no
    No no no no no

  362. house snow,

    I think it has been explained. He has to touch her with the infected part of the hand which he of course has covered…

  363. I don’t believe Shireen is dead until I see her dead body on the ground. Why? Because if Stannis is really NOT the Prince Who Was Promised (and it’s widely believed that he isn’t) and Mel was WRONG about that then burning Shireen would have been for nothing. Personally, I think her greyscale will save her. Isn’t there supposed to be something special about greyscale? And with the coming of the White Walkers there is supposed to be magic released in the world, like there was when Dany was able to hatch the dragons’ eggs in fire and she herself did not burn when she climbed onto Khal Drogo’s pyre. When they went right from that scene to the one in Draznak’s Pit and Drogon came down burning people I thought that there would be a parallel to the burning of Shireen with the burning of Jorah. And because he now has greyscale it would protect him from fire. I could see all of this foreshadowed. Am I nuts or does anyone else want to wait for next week’s episode to see what has actually happened to Shireen?

  364. Arthur: Drogon came regardless, he sensed something. There is no denying they have some kind of mental link.

    Oh they absolutely have a mental link. He came because she was in danger and he sensed it. He was not in the slightest bit interested in eating anyone. He spat out Harpies, lol! He was gonna stay there taking bolt after bolt till all the Harpies were gone. But then he and Mom flew up, up and away.

    I was dead wrong about Hizzy. But Tyrion was right, Hizzy and Tywin would have got along famously. All about tradition! Even if it means murder as sport.

  365. Moonlight,

    I haven’t watched yet but I have always said dragon riding would come off cheesy on film. As long as they just filmed her rising up and not flying about Mereen it shouldn’t be too bad. I hope GRRM finds away around this and doesn’t have characters actually riding dragons into battle in the finale books.

  366. Stannis and Melisandre are going straight to hell ~ where they can rot with their stupid Red God. Good for Selyse. What’s too bad about Shireen’s death is that my boyfriend and I looked at each other and said: “well – it’s just a silly TV show ~ it didn’t really happen or anything.”
    But what came next ~ which should have been the “fantasy” part of the whole episode seemed so real, so unexpected, so well-executed and so stupendous, that we were just sitting on the edge of the bed ~ shaking. Drogon is unbelievable ~ the way he swooped in, the way he “T-Rexed” the bad guys, and the way he burned those ISIS guys (oops – I mean Harpy guys) with such precision. Incredible! And Drogon’s face in close-up – all bloodied but wanting to protect his Mother. Wow.
    They just didn’t need to kill Shireen.

  367. Dany scales escaped leaving her entourage behind in danger… Twice. Including hubby to be. Bitch is a worse wife than she is a queen.

    Loved Dorne. Seems like we’re having more scenes next episode, I heard Jaime’s voice on the trailer.

    First episode with no Sansa.

  368. Moonlight,

    Yes of course it was a little unbelievable. But its fantasy, yes Dany basically walks up, pulls a spear from Drogon’s neck then pets him and while they are looking into each others eyes lovingly everything ceases around them and no one throws a spear or does anything to Dany.

    You could just think to yourself, Drogon burned and tore apart a lot of them, maybe they ran, maybe they were to scared to do anything the few that threw spears at Drogon, Drogon ate.

    So just relax and enjoy it for what it is, a great fantasy sequence and stop with the nitpicking on such trivial things.

    Was it unrealistic nobody threw a spear at Dany, yes… But so are Dragons.

  369. house snow:
    So does Dany have greyscale cause jorahdefinitely touched her

    I don’t think it becomes contagious until in much later stages, otherwise Tyrion would have it because Jorah touched him repeatedly to wake him up on the beach.

  370. Speaking of breaking the internet, the IMDB message board crashed as soon as the ep finished. LOL

  371. I thought the Pit was great: tense, emotional when Drogon appeared.

    presumably Hiz wasn’t the Harpy….
  372. even I, a non book reader, can tell that this stannis portrayal is very off. it Doesnt surprise me that George had this coming in his version of the story, but clearly George’s version, timeline, events, and the journey to that fateful decision is going to make sense by the end of it. in this episode and season it makes no sense. desperation for shock value – which, clearly when they got this confirmation from george – it was shocking to them – and thought it would work on us at this point. – It did, shockingly bad.

    the point of my post? Book Readers have plenty leg to stand on to be outraged with this poor execution of the stannis story arc.

    again – disappointed in the Pit sequence – Drogon didn’t look that great, definitely ran out of budget money after hard home, but what really pisses me off, is the scene with Danny being surrounded by SoTH was clearly shown in promo material by HBO leading up to the Season Premiere. Thanks HBO, for half revealing part of the 9th episode climax.

  373. Well, since I was one of the ones who already knew what was going down, here’s my “I’ve had a full day to process that” statement on the episode in general:

    Everything shy of Dorne was decent to incredible. Dorne hurt it, though, and Arya probably should have had more of a resolution to her not-exactly-her-best season plotline this episode, too. Here’s hoping 5×10 gives her a bigger payoff, even as I wish her climax this year wasn’t just “Meryn Trant is a dick; kill him.” But it’s OK, I’ve come to realize Thrones has separate climaxes for its various arcs, and they fire off at varied intervals. Happens in the books, besides.

    But Dorne! Oh, Alexander Siddig. Why did they give you a role like this? Doran is alright, but he’s surrounded by whatevers. 5×09 shouldn’t have had 45 seconds dedicated to the Sand Snakes slapping match. Nothing in this show is likely to ever enrage me to a tenth of the extent that some things have clearly enraged others, but that was a solid 9% right there. Now when I do my annual rewatch later I’m going to have to remind myself, “ooh, ooh, and in the 49th episode, two of the Sand Snakes are being dumb. Hype.” >_>

    That’s all the negativity I can really afford, though. I’m fine with the Stannis arc, which obviously makes me a very lucky fan this evening. Shireen, well, I of course feel terrible for losing. My heart aches, and I will see Stannis burn.

    Daznak’s Pit was exceptional, but I’m seeing scattered complaints that they turned a gripping political thriller into a cheap action setpiece. I never really found Meereen a “gripping political thriller” in ADWD, myself, so I can’t say I feel it. They did good here. Also, Emilia Clarke’s best acting. Like, ever.

  374. JamesL,

    Unfortunately, they do show her rising above the city. Not only that, but she’s seen circling one of the pyramids.

  375. BostonDave: We’re cliffhanged until next season on just about everyone’s story.

    Maybe they aren’t completely “off-book” then. LOL 😉 Hey, at least it’s only cliffhanged for a season and not a decade…

  376. Jorah is not giving anyone greyscale, particularly Dany, come on! It would be direct contact, not from unafflicted skin.

  377. ok…..that “Inside the Episode” segment “When George told us this was going to happen” I mean, how? It’s a weird segment becasue they don’t really say anything after that. I’m not even sure HOW it happens. Really hope Martin speaks up or something.

  378. Hahahhaahaha

    To all you Stannis fans….you deserved that. Mutha fucker needs to get his. The North and Robb remembers.

  379. Arthur,

    Hmm, I wasn’t under the impression that I was “nitpicking,” more so that I simply didn’t like the scene. I happen to love fantasy, and I like Game of Thrones very much, but silly me, I didn’t realize I had to like every scene to be considered a proper fan.

  380. So seriously, Jon took the ships back to Eastwatch, so why was he North of the Wall again? Makes no sense.

  381. HBOsWail:
    even I, a non book reader, can tell that this stannis portrayal is very off. it Doesnt surprise me that George had this coming in his version of the story, but clearly George’s version, timeline, events, and the journey to that fateful decision is going to make sense by the end of it. in this episode and season it makes no sense. desperation for shock value – which, clearly when they got this confirmation from george – it was shocking to them – and thought it would work on us at this point. – It did, shockingly bad.

    the point of my post? Book Readers have plenty leg to stand on to be outraged with this poor execution of the stannis story arc.

    again – disappointed in the Pit sequence – Drogon didn’t look that great, definitely ran out of budget money after hard home, but what really pisses me off, is the scene with Danny being surrounded by SoTH was clearly shown in promo material by HBO leading up to the Season Premiere. Thanks HBO, for half revealing part of the 9th episode climax.

    That is some impressive spin there.

  382. Moonlight,

    It’s always going to look unrealistic, since dragons are imaginary.

    I know, I know , it’s a scary thought … put down your Pernography for a few minutes and go outside for a change.

  383. BostonDave:
    And its clear they’re not wrapping up virtually any storylines. They even added at least one with Mace Tyrell and this dumbass Iron Bank crap. We’re cliffhanged until next season on just about everyone’s story.

    Just like the books, then.
    We are right on track.

  384. As this episode has already aired now I feel the need to say this. The show is now into the territory of books that have not been written and I get a real sense that SOME people are going to denigrate the show so loudly for no other reason than the fact they don’t want the show to continue until they know/ read what happens, I believe it is a selfish and instinctively puritanical mindset. I love the books but this show and its creators have literally done more to ensure the next book flies of the shelves in record numbers than anyone except GRRM any so called book purist should be thankful this show has done this for the wonderful books that are ice and fire. Suck it up and enjoy the ride I know I will. But alas if you must holler bloody murder know that I disagree and encourage you to stop watching

  385. Jstoru,

    So true~

    And we’re entering unknown book zones left and right, which means there’ll be more reactions now. It’s going to be expected. Enjoy the show as it is as it’ll be the only adaptation we’ll have of this series for who knows how long.

  386. Fuck Blood Magic, fuck the Lord of light, fuck this old system of belief that worship
    Azor azai myth and the sacrifice of his wife…

    (in the book as in the show, it was obvious Stannis would burn his daugther …

    No wonder Rhllor was never popular in Westeros, as a believer you have to sacrifice your family, your blood, but it is family not religion that build the 7 kingdoms…

    Stannis will never succeed in his quest. I just hope he realize before the end that he choosed the wrong path and legetimize Gendry on his dead bed…

    ** sorry for my english

  387. Did you guys catch when Doran mentioned FOUR of Oberyn’s daughters? Sarella ftw!!!

  388. Moonlight,

    Sorry if my reply came out that way. I didn’t mean to offend you or question your opinion, that’s fine you don’t like that scene because it’s “unrealistic nobody tried to kill Dany when she was with Drogon.”

    I was just saying sometimes you have to turn your brain off a little to appreciate a fantasy sequence like this that’s all.

  389. Bye bye Hizdahr.
    I thought he would stay longer with us, especially because he never married Dany.
    It would be cool seeing him and Tyrion fight for the control of Meereen.

  390. Valaquen,

    I don’t know….too much happening at the wall in the books……there’s no spoiler button on this comment thing, so I won’t say anything, but just seems like there isn’t time for a raven to be sent and orders carried out.

  391. So I guess Mel burns Shireen at the Wall in TWoW. Without Stannis present? Or does Mel deliver Shireen to Stannis’ camp first? Weird. Very confused.

  392. Awesome episode.

    (edit to avoid spoilers – sorry don’t know spoiler code)

    Sorry to the haters, but I can only say well done to all involved with this episode!!

  393. KG,

    Forgive me, but don’t you think that’s a bit extreme? Is it so bad that I didn’t like that one scene? I said myself that they did the best they could, I just didn’t particularly enjoy it. I see no need to be so aggressive.

  394. I was thinking about Mel’s leeches, saying 4 kings would die. Greyjoy is probably still alive, so that leaves………….Stannis? Will he be the fourth one to die? Then in comes Jon and Dany…..?

    I so wanted one of those soldiers to kill Mel. Just one would be all it would take….

    That dragon was incredible. I want to rewatch just those 10 minutes or so repeatedly for a few days

  395. I’d say Davos finds out what’s happened somehow, throws in his Stannis chips and stays at the Wall
  396. Ghost:
    So seriously, Jon took the ships back to Eastwatch, so why was he North of the Wall again? Makes no sense.

    You could easily say bad weather and the ships were overburdened. They probably decided they couldn’t make it to Eastwatch and landed early.

  397. Ginevra,

    That’s really awesome, all the book purist people who were saying how D&D ruined Stannis and all their normal crap can suck it, that scene is right from GRRM.

  398. HBOsWail:
    even I, a non book reader, can tell that this stannis portrayal is very off. it Doesnt surprise me that George had this coming in his version of the story, but clearly George’s version, timeline, events, and the journey to that fateful decision is going to make sense by the end of it. in this episode and season it makes no sense. desperation for shock value – which, clearly when they got this confirmation from george – it was shocking to them – and thought it would work on us at this point. – It did, shockingly bad.
    the point of my post? Book Readers have plenty leg to stand on to be outraged with this poor execution of the stannis story arc.

    Pretty much this.
    So… If Stannis does end up doing this in the books it means a lot of things as all bookreaders will now. Pretty huge spoilers.

  399. Moonlight,

    You are lying. They show them fly over the stadium and out of it with the Harpy Pyramid in the background… IT was really very well made!

  400. I have never cried during a movie or tv show. Shireen burning got me very close.

    Still on Team Stannis.

  401. Moonlight,

    No problem, I used to fight and battle people on this site and it’s just wasted energy.

    I try to be friendly and respectful, we are all the fandom and I love everyone here and can disagree politely =)

    I just try to point out stuff that will perhaps make people rethink things.

  402. Fuck Stannis! That iron pot robot brain ugly demon spawn of Lord of ass!

    Renly was right all along!

  403. dothrakian raven,

    Isn’t that what I said? They show her rising above one of the pyramids. I’m not sure why so many people are upset that I didn’t like the dragon scene; just because I don’t like something doesn’t mean anyone is prevented from liking it themselves.

  404. I thought I would hate the Stannis assasination, but I didn’t mind. He’s a character. The episode was really good. Dorne finally became intriguing and I’m sure we’ll get Dorans long game next week. Doran and Areo are both awesome actors / characters, even if the sand snakes kinda suck. I blame the accents.

    Curious the Davos fallout, that relationship feels point of no return. No Littlefinger or Varys.

    And no one shedding a tear for Harzoo :(. He just wanted to respect his cities tradition. And now he is dead. RIP. Even though I still think book Harzoo is the harpy

  405. Stannis the Mannis!!! One true king! You will bend the knee, or he will destroy you!

    Did I miss any more hypable quotes? Well, don’t believe the hype…unless it involves Clegane Bowl, which is confirmed. GET HYPE!!!

  406. Hardhome was a bit better action sequence,but Daznak’s was still glorious:tense,emotional and Dany’s flight was amazing, but some things were off.Plot armour of Ser Friendzone?How he throw spear kinda over the top.No guards with the Queen?Dorne was meh for most part,but Alexander Siddig is great.Arya stuff was good.The Wall not much happened.Shireen that was brutal.No comment on this.Absolutely horrible.This Olly kid is pretty annoying.

    Overall great episode,but Hardhome episode was overall a better episode.Still Dance of Dragons was good and Meereen,Braavos in particular.

  407. Ok here’s my bet for story/character condensing next season

    Jorah moves into Barristan’s place, Daario, uneasy when there’s no fighting and resentful of J’s return, looses Viserion and Rhaegal in an attempt to make up for standing like a chump during the start of the attack and gets fried.

    I have no proof of any kind, that’s just my best guess.

  408. Maceless Fan:
    Did you guys catch when Doran mentioned FOUR of Oberyn’s daughters? Sarella ftw!!!

    Doran specifically said Ellaria is mother to four of his nieces. She’s only the mother of one of the three Sand Snakes shown so far, so in show canon there are at least 6 daughters of Oberyn. Did he ever mention last season how many he had??

  409. Lololololo

    Fuck all you Stannis lovers.. He sucks and has always sucked and killed Robb and now his daughter. Suck it.

  410. The Bastard:
    I have never cried during a movie or tv show.Shireen burning got me very close.

    Still on Team Stannis.

    You still support that false pretender? He’s nothing else but a puppet pawn for the demon god.

    Now I know who wrote the pink letter.

  411. HBOsWail:
    even I, a non book reader, can tell that this stannis portrayal is very off. it Doesnt surprise me that George had this coming in his version of the story, but clearly George’s version, timeline, events, and the journey to that fateful decision is going to make sense by the end of it. in this episode and season it makes no sense. desperation for shock value – which, clearly when they got this confirmation from george – it was shocking to them – and thought it would work on us at this point. – It did, shockingly bad.

    the point of my post? Book Readers have plenty leg to stand on to be outraged with this poor execution of the stannis story arc.

    Agreed. The Stannis arc was too rushed if they were going to end it like this, and I can’t see him doing it for the Iron Throne. If he thought he needed to do it as a desperation ploy to stop a White Walker horde, then maybe. But D&D have said that Stannis is the villain, and their portrayal cemented that tonight. Megalomaniacal Stannis vs. Pyschopathic Ramsay Bolton… maybe we’re supposed to root for the White Walkers.

    That scene made the pit scene pretty irrelevant to me. I was stuck on Shireen.

  412. Brandon,

    Because those deaths had purpose. The red wedding was a plot point that was vital to the story. This was making us watch the senseless murder of a little girl while listening to her agonized screams and watching her father’s uncaring face.

  413. clk:
    Bye bye Hizdahr.
    I thought he would stay longer with us, especially because he never married Dany.
    It would be cool seeing him and Tyrion fight for the control of Meereen.

    Sheeps bladder. Same they gave to Talisa.

  414. Moonlight,

    Don’t confuse sarcasm with aggression. I can be much, much worse – ask anyone 😀

    You need to get thicker skin if you plan to get into debates online.

  415. Used To Be King Stannis: You still support that false pretender?He’s nothing else but a puppet pawn for the demon god.

    Now I know who wrote the pink letter.

    He is a great character. He will kill eveybody in his family to get on the Iron Throne.

  416. Moonlight,

    You said above the city which is not true. They didn’t circle the pyramid even. The pyramid was the background as they took off and reached a level above the stadium. Which was logical. It’s your right not to like it but do not use as proof things that didn’t happen…

  417. Ser Alliser is a hard bastard but he falls just on the right side of bad when it comes to the crunch.

  418. wycoff,

    I don’t know how it will happen in the books, but I never expected Stannis to survive until the WW invasion.

  419. Rygar,

    (Romantic music swells as we ride off into the sunset – flamewars igniting in random forums just from the force of our passing.)

  420. KG,

    Perhaps it’s because I wasn’t really looking to debate with anyone. . . .we were talking about a CGI dragon, not national health care. But you are right, it appears I simply misinterpreted what you said.

  421. gewa76,

    Haha that’s funny, I watched that movie sooo much as a kid, over and over, it got me into reading and everything!

    Such memories!

  422. asdf:
    I thought I would hate the Stannis assasination, but I didn’t mind.He’s a character.The episode was really good.Dorne finally became intriguing and I’m sure we’ll get Dorans long game next week.Doran and Areo are both awesome actors / characters, even if the sand snakes kinda suck.I blame the accents.

    Curious the Davos fallout, that relationship feels point of no return.No Littlefinger or Varys.

    And no one shedding a tear for Harzoo :(.He just wanted to respect his cities tradition.And now he is dead.RIP.Even though I still think book Harzoo is the harpy

    When he was late to the games and she asked where have you been? I thought maybe he set this all up (the Harpy attack). But he died too. Or did he? 😉

  423. Chrysee: Doran specifically said Ellaria is mother to four of his nieces. She’s only the mother of one of the three Sand Snakes shown so far, so in show canon there are at least 6 daughters of Oberyn. Did he ever mention last season how many he had??

    Well in the books, Ellaria was never the mother of Tyene, Nym, or Obara. The show made her the mother of different children. It basically opens the door for Sarella.

  424. Chrysee: Doran specifically said Ellaria is mother to four of his nieces. She’s only the mother of one of the three Sand Snakes shown so far, so in show canon there are at least 6 daughters of Oberyn. Did he ever mention last season how many he had??

    I think Oberyn said last season to Cersei, he had 8 Kids.

  425. Since there is Targaryen blood in the Baratheon history, maybe Shireen will be blessed with some of that immune-to-fire stuff and we’ll see her next week?

    One can hope, right? 🙂

  426. Alix the Direwolf:
    Well, that was really scraping the bottom of the barrel this season D&D.Where is the logic?Stannis does not even have evidence that Gendry’s leeching worked yet.No Balon death.So how can it possibly follow that he would believe fully in Melisandre.He should have at least captured Yara and confirmed her father was dead before being able to justify it to himself.Spectacular set pieces are not making up for poor story telling for me.

    Yeah…I got a lot of grief here for pointing out the same issues in last week’s episode.
    I’ve not seen today’s but not surprised by your opinion.

    In short…agreed.

    D&D pitched GoT to HBO with the Red Wedding. D&D’s inspiration and dedication to rational motivations and actions died after season three. They abandoned intrigue for often thinly justified shock moments.

  427. Am I the only one who thinks that Hizdar is going to somehow end up alive and turn up like a bad penny next week?

  428. Arthur:
    Blob,

    Because D&D want you to know that Stannis does love his daughter and he does know it’s wrong to do what Mel asks but he does it anyway, because he is a fanatic asshole that will lie, cheat, steal and burn his own children alive to sit on the Iron Throne.

    And we thought Aerys was nuts………Stannis has jumped the shark.
    Oooooo, just wait until Davos Seaworth finds out!

  429. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    wycoff,

    I don’t know how it will happen in the books, but I never expected Stannis to survive until the WW invasion.

    Stannis wrote the pink letter. He is desperate and is asking for Shireen and “Reek”?

    Ramsay never got to him. So the night watch will send whoever is in that pink letter down

  430. Predictable fans…. story doesn’t go in direction they want it to….. complain that the show is finished.

    Saw this after the Sansa Rape episode. And the fans still came back in droves after Memorial Day.

    GRRM is to blame for Shireen getting burned.

  431. KG,

    Well, I was hoping for a swerve. I’m not shocked by Shireen’s death, just the manner of it. Stannis can die now.

  432. Ron:

    D&D pitched GoT with the Red Wedding. D&D’s inspiration and dedication to rational motivations and actions died after season three. They abandoned intrigue for often thinly justified shock moments.

    Thank you for giving us the most succinct summary of aFfC and ADwD possible. Couldn´t have put it any better.

  433. wycoff,

    Yes. I think perhaps nothing else matters except the Big Battle to come between the White Walkers and the Red God (however that is to happen is anyone’s guess). All these other characters we’ve grown close to over the years mean absolutely nothing because they are all going to die anyway. At the end will be left only the ‘special’ people who have some sort of special power – the Starks because they can warg – the Targaryens because they have dragons – and perhaps the Ironborn because they live in the water and the White Walkers for some reason cannot enter it. All theory based on what I see as foreshadowing, but it all remains to be seen.

  434. I think the big message of this episode was, “Stannis is NOT who you guys are supposed to be rooting for. He, too, is one of the bad guys.”

  435. The Bastard:

    GRRM is to blame for Shireen getting burned.

    Unfortunately, that brutal truth will be met by a tidal wave of denial.
    How will those poor souls cope when S6 starts ?
    No tWoW to cling to.

  436. Brandon:
    JaimenotJamie,

    How is Shireen being burned any more ‘sadist’ than Talisa, Robb, and Cat being slaughtered at a wedding?

    Because she’s a child being burned alive which is a hell of a lot more frightening and painful than a stabbing. Good lord……

  437. I’m worried for Jon now. No way D&D are going to have him associated with Melisandre. So, looks like it is up to Bloodraven or Bran to save him.

  438. Far, far better than I expected. STILL not quite there with Stannis truly BELIEVING in Melisandre and her bloodmagic… but it was 95% there. And it’s done.

    Never been this depressed for a fictional character since Wash on Firefly. How will my Shireen/Rickon wolf/stag babies exist now?

    Bravo…

  439. I for one am glad Stannis burned Shireen!
    To have burned others and then save his daughter would have made him a self-serving hypocrite. While he may not be a true believer in R’hllor, he is a true believer in his destiny! On some level I can respect that.

  440. gewa76:
    I don’t remember the NeverEnding Story being so violent.

    While, it’s no where as dark as ASoIaF, the second half of the book gets relatively, pretty dark.

  441. But D&D have said that Stannis is the villain, and their portrayal cemented that tonight. Megalomaniacal Stannis vs. Pyschopathic Ramsay Bolton… maybe we’re supposed to root for the White Walkers.

    Ayup.

  442. Not sure it’s been discussed yet but does anyone think that:

    Hizdahr is still alive and faked his death. he was rather late to the pits
  443. flintwielder: Thank you for giving us the most succinct summary of aFfC and ADwD possible. Couldn´t have put it any better.

    took me a moment to realise what you were saying here (maybe its the early hours of the morning?) but i agree. In fact, after season 3, and the “inside the episodes” materials were available.. and they talked about their ambition to just make it to the red wedding – i feared this would happen – well what will drive them after that? this thought scarcely came to mind but has again tonight thanks to your post. and i absolutely agree – i don’t know if its true for George (though i suspect it kinda is, he’s already achieved his goal to break hearts several times) but for D&D i think its true – some factors – they want to wrap up the show as quickly as possible – its obvious. The care, dedication etc has waned. It really shows this season – and i actually felt it began in Season 4. Season 1 – 2 – 3 all had a very similar tone to them. It was season 4 that this story began to feel much like a TV Show. (i know only a few people will know exactly what i mean by that).

    kthxbye

  444. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    wycoff,

    I don’t know how it will happen in the books, but I never expected Stannis to survive until the WW invasion.

    I thought that he would take Winterfell. I thought the he’d still be there when the Wall falls, and I thought he’d be the first the face them. I thought that he’d be convinced that it was his destiny to beat them as the Lord of Light with his false Lightbringer, and I thought that he would die fighting them.

    My conception of Stannis was that he had a noble streak underlying his singlemindedness. He would do what he thought was right without compromise, but he wouldn’t do it just to aggrandize himself. I guess you can still make that argument now, but it’s much harder to give him any sympathy. Show Stannis is now basically megalomaniacal crazy man. The change was too abrupt. The show didn’t really even have an equivalent of Stannis’s version of Napoleon in Russia (that great ADWD chapter detailing the misery of Stannis’s march).

  445. i dont think hizdar died …

    there was something fishy with hizdar in this episode ..he came late and said something like make sure things are prepared

    for those who saying that Jorah touched Dany …

    Dany helped and touched the victims of Palemare ..she didnt got affected by them

  446. I am curious to see where this leaves Davos. He can’t stand by Stannis after this.

  447. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    That is a very good point you make. Because there is no way going back for Melisandre. She has to march to WF with Stannis.

    So it remains to see how Jon’s fate will be depicted. It opens also, I know it sounds silly, the LSH gate a bit more for the next episode. We have to see what this shocking moment in ep 10 will be…
  448. Who shall ultimately sit upon the golden throne?

    “You poop or you die!”
    — John Oliver

  449. This episode was emotionally devastating. Shireen’s death hit me harder than any other death in the show’s history. What a terrible decision: I mean by Stannis, not necessarily by the writers. I feel like it was a wrong writing decision too, but since GRRM apparently told them, I guess it can’t be. It’s GRRM’s decision, and he knows Stannis best. (Not that GRRM can’t make writing mistakes, e.g. Darkstar, but on the whole he’s the best judge of good writing for his series.)

    Poor Shireen. Poor, poor Shireen. A pure, good, loving child, dying in one of the most horrible ways imaginable. Screaming for the father she loved, who she thought loved her – even screaming for the mother she thought hated her. A helpless child at the mercy of evil.

    I was rooting for Stannis before this, but now the opposite is true. I hope Brienne ends him. And that’ll just highlight how awful and vain Shireen’s sacrifice was, which makes it even more upsetting, if that’s possible.

    I had been looking forward to this episode mostly because I felt it would reveal whether Hizdahr was cooperating with the Sons of the Harpy or not (I really grew to like what the show did with him). I was relieved to see that he wasn’t on their side, as I felt that was consistent with how he was written on the show. I’m sorry to see him go, but it’s better for a character to die than for their character to be assassinated (if that makes sense). A character that goes on living when they’re no longer who they’re supposed to be is worse than a character that dies having been true to themselves.

    What’s awful is that Stannis was trying to be “true” by sacrificing Shireen. You can see that in the conversation he had with her beforehand. He doesn’t see any alternative. He has to embrace “destiny,” no matter how much he hates it. But he was wrong, wrong, wrong, and nothing can make him right.

  450. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    There is only one hope for him and that is Ghost.Hopefully we will see the aftermath of FTW and not some lame cliffhanger like in the books.Enough of that.

  451. wycoff,

    Agreed, the fighting pits scene (which actually pretty good) was ruined by the death of Shireen.

    I’m not sure I buy that the Pink Letter in the book was written by Stannis and that Shireen will eventually die by the hand of her father like in the show. I think this is D&D just taking the story wherever they feel like going. It makes no sense, because in the books Stannis is not religious really, and does not take Mel, Selyse or Shireen on the the march. D&D just want Stannis to be seen as a villain, which makes me think he will lose vs. the Boltons and the writers want to lessen that impact. Before the whole North is destroyed by the White Walkers. There will be nobody able to fight them.

    This season has been weird; it has great episodes (like Hardhome) but is easily the worst so far. While I have not actually criticized them until now, I fear for the future seasons with D&D aka “Seven Seasons or bust so we can do other shit”.

  452. I am still calling it the season of the actors. This show has gone from a tribute, to an adaptation, to a mockery. All of the subtlety and complexity of the books is gone. I am not trolling. I have been a supporter from the beginning. This is more about expressing my disappointment. But watching this season….We lost a beautiful medieval love story (Arienne and Arys) only to have it replaced with..IDK pick something, debauchery of some kind designed to titillate rather than something romantic and interesting. The quality fall off in the writing has been really hard to watch. Stannis (WTF?) Jon(WTF?), Dorne? Some of those actors I have been a fan of for a long time. Then there’s Dany (Jaw drops). (takes a breath) Okay, I’ll stop.
    Thankfully DnD did something right. The actors this season-across the board-have been exceptional. They really have made the difference when considering whether or not I want to continue watching. I’m not sure I will after this season. Clearly we’re moving into “last two novels” territory. If I do continue to watch, it will largely be to watch the actors.

    The North Remembers.

  453. jennyofoldstones:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Why isn’t Jon warging?Can’t he warg?Is he not like the other Stark kids?

    I agree. That needs to be established to some degree soon. And Arya as well, what the hell? I’m sure that GRRM made it so Arya is a warg for a reason.

  454. God darnit.

    I knew she was toast as soon as her and Davos were giggling about how Ser Swann got burnt to a crisp during the Dance of Dragons.

  455. Scott4567,

    I think Jon is one of the characters who has finally been done justice this season. Don’t understand why he would be on your ‘WTF’ list.

  456. Stannis’ men are regularly burning people in Dance. He’s long burned anyone who wouldn’t worship a God he doesn’t really believe except for the part of making him king. He murdered his brother by making a demon baby shadow. Asha makes clear in the book thatnhes a misogynist but we know he follows everything his priestess says… because she assures him that he’ll be king. Stannis has always had ambition that trumps hs honor. He might raionalize to blind himself to that fact but readers weren’t supposed to blind themselves to it. Some seem to have lost sight of that.

    Rygar:
    Lololololo

    Fuck all you Stannis lovers..He sucks and has always sucked and killed Robb and now his daughter.Suck it.

  457. Color me unimpressed with this episode.. I’m not at all trying to be a hater/troll. I LOVE this show, and am very dedicated to it. This episode just did not have that flair to it. The Shireen scene was sad, and intense, but Dany’s scene with her riding off on Drogon, just seemed cheesy as hell. Her character to me is just so boring, and lame. I loved the part with her and Jorah, but after that it just went into the crapper.

  458. Estelindis,

    Great post, I’m sti not over it though, not even a little bit. I want stannis to die now more than RAMSEY. I can’t believe I’m saying that since last epi he was in my top 5. Ugh. Couldn’t agree more re: HIZZY. Poor guy… I mean, slaver scum, but the best of them.

  459. Don’t you kind of want Stannis to live and sort of deal with the reality of what he did. Quick death = easy way out?

  460. This is the first time that I feel completely unimpressed & have no excitement for next week’s episode. I actually am thinking about not watching the show until after the books come out now. I am worried the books will be ruined by watching too much cutting and combining of the story in the show – just don’t know about this…sigh

  461. Bryan,

    Bryan:
    Not sure it’s been discussed yet but does anyone think that:

    I thought so at first as well (the first angle of his stabbing made it look superficial). He looked gravely wounded in his last scene in the episode, however.

  462. I see some people wondering if the show will reveal the Harpy. Haha! You guys! Forget all of that. Like it never happened. That’s over now. We’ve travelled that short cut and got to where we needed to. It doesn’t matter anymore.

    You’re dealing with writers who didn’t even feel the need to explain who attempted to assassinate Bran in the first season. They literally just forgot about it. Remember, the show will get to where the books are, but just via a different path. And because D and D are tired now, that path will be rode roughshod.

  463. Ugh, I thought Stannis might be the vehicle by which a Stark comeback would happen.

    Apparently not.

    The Stark bannermen not helping him in the show should have been a foreshadowing I think.

    Still, not buying that the guy that said “…that you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt!” would burn his only heir.

    Chriss,

    Indeed.

  464. Moonlight,

    I agree with you as just because it’s a scene depicting fantasy does not mean it should be done in a unrealistic and shoddy manner. The scene was not that well written and they could of at least had Jorah win his fights on his own merit. Him throwing the spear was a bit silly as well (I bet he did javelin in college), they should of had him shout and/or had Tyrion or Daario kill the assassin.

    The Dorne stuff was rather disappointing and oh goody we get to see more of the wooden Trystane next season! Doran will have to have one hell of reveal next episode to redeem the dornish storyline but I am not sure I will care. I doubt there is enough storyline to go round for Ellaria and the sand snakes and surely a couple of them have to die (as perhaps Ellaria should have today)

    I am not a book reader (although know most of the storylines) so only assume Meryn Trant’s paedophilia is based upon a him/another character from the books as I can’t help thinking it was unnecessary (isn’t he already enough of a cunt!)

    I am disappointed with the Stannis storyline as he was character I liked (since his speech in season 2 episode 8) and now I am only concerned how Sansa’s storyline plays out now. Surely the writers should have realised that it would affect the way the audience perceived Stannis and thus making the battle for Winterfell an anti-climax.

    As some other commentators pointed out, since they were travelling by ship; Jon and the wildings did not have go via the wall. Not sure how this will play out in the next episode but Jon and the other members of the nightswatch could have returned to the wall in episode 10 after dropping off the wildings. So the episode 9 scene could either have been cut or showed Jon and co try and deal with the aftermath of hardhome.

    Brienne is going to have a kill list bigger than Arya’s – Ramsey, Walder Frey/what’s his name frey, Stannis, Littlefinger, that guy who looked at her funny …..

  465. Turncloak,

    In the “Inside the Episode” following episode 9, they reveal:

    George R.R. Martin told D&D that Stannis apparently *does* intend to kill Shireen. It just hasn’t happened in the books (or the leaked TWOW chapters) yet. Spoilers for The Winds of Winter. We’ll find out when & how eventually.

    Bit perplexing when Stannis says: “I have a duty to my daughter. If I am dead, seat my daughter on the Iron Throne or die in the attempt. There will be no burnings.”

    How we get from that to the sacrifice of Shireen will have to wait.

    Will G.R.R.M. get TWOW published prior to S6? We can only hope.

  466. This is my first season reading GoT websites after each episode. I think it will be my last. Never seen so many people just complain about something they watch every week.

  467. whit,

    This will happen in the book I know it. D&D just did us a favor to cutting that plot short and let us stop supporting whom is the son of the demon this whole time.

  468. Cersei’s Brain:
    This is the first time that I feel completely unimpressed & have no excitement for next week’s episode.I actually am thinking about not watching the show until after the books come out now.I am worried the books will be ruined by watching too much cutting and combining of the story in the show –just don’t know about this…sigh

    I hated watching Stannis sacrifice Shireen this episode, but I don’t know what it would take for me to stop watching the show- probably something bizarre like transporting the characters to 1950s New Jersey to fight the Sharks and the Jets. I’m completely invested in the story and the acting. Stephen Dillane has made Stannis come alive these past few seasons, and he’s just one of many exceptional actors. When you add to that my sinking suspicion that the books will never be finished, and it makes my choice an easy one.

  469. Dorne was still a disappointment. Will never understand why Doran wasn’t given more screen time. Do we expect to see more of Dorne in the finale? If so, is Doran’s plan revealed? Does he have a plan? Or was his plan to send Boy Band Trystane to KL to fill the seat on the small council?

  470. Finally having watched what everyone has been going apeshit about — this was overall a really great episode. Just like with episode 6, the most emotionally intense scene is apparently the one everyone wants to crap on, but it’s the exact scene that makes the episode powerful. Daznak’s was actually anticlimactic for me … but that may be because I knew it was going to happen. Shireen’s scene was just insanely gripping and had that impending dread — where you could see what was coming relentlessly and had no way to stop it.

    Dorne was again somewhat weak, but much improved from the earlier scenes, maybe because the Sand Snakes were kept to a minimum. Didn’t seem like a lot happened there – Jaime could have sent a raven and got the same result. Unless there’s another scene in the finale, it seems like a fairly pointless diversion.

    Interested to see what’s in store in the finale – FTW is looking inevitable, but will that be the end or is there something to see after that…?

  471. Chriss:
    I see some people wondering if the show will reveal the Harpy. Haha! You guys! Forget all of that. Like it never happened. That’s over now. We’ve travelled that short cut and got to where we needed to. It doesn’t matter anymore.

    You’re dealing with writers who didn’t even feel the need to explain who attempted to assassinate Bran in the first season. They literally just forgot about it. Remember, the show will get to where the books are, but just via a different path. And because D and D are tired now, that path will be rode roughshod.

    Yep, we should have taken the long road: Three seasons of food inventories, torture porn, travelogue, cryvasse, where do whores go, diarrhea, turtle counting and an additional 36546 POVs to check on the food and the turtles.
    Dang, D&D really missed that stellar opportunity.

  472. The Bastard:
    This is my first season reading GoT websites after each episode.I think it will be my last.Never seen so many people just complain about something they watch every week.

    If you stay long enough, you’ll become one of us. Honestly, if you can, you’re better just avoiding forums altogether.

  473. Cersei’s Brain:
    This is the first time that I feel completely unimpressed & have no excitement for next week’s episode.I actually am thinking about not watching the show until after the books come out now.I am worried the books will be ruined by watching too much cutting and combining of the story in the show –just don’t know about this…sigh

    I’m just so sure that’s true.

  474. whit,

    I actually feel more confident there’ll be greater than 70 episodes with this show than I ever have before, after this season. I’m thinking 74-76 somehow, with a year split. There’s just no way.

    Don’t ask me why I could possibly have thought otherwise when all I had to go by was the super-slow source material, haha.

    Anyway, I don’t agree that the quality of the series has dropped much but I’d agree that this has been a more uneven year than ever before.

  475. flintwielder: Yep, we should have taken the long road: Three seasons of food inventories, torture porn, travelogue, cryvasse, where do whores go, diarrhea, turtle counting and an additional 36546 POVs to check on the food and the turtles.
    Dang, D&D really missed that stellar opportunity.

    Torture porn? Surely we can’t have another full season of that!

    I get it, the show can do no wrong in your eyes. It’s all perfect. No doubt you just wish D and D could jettison the books altogether and come up with their own arcs. More Of their Dornish delights, more Craster’s. Well you’re probably in luck. They’ll no doubt have a very heavy input next season.

  476. flintwielder: Yep, we should have taken the long road: Three seasons of food inventories, torture porn, travelogue, cryvasse, where do whores go, diarrhea, turtle counting and an additional 36546 POVs to check on the food and the turtles.
    Dang, D&D really missed that stellar opportunity.

    But that was in the books, so it is great by default!

  477. sai,

    Hahaha you are very right. I don’t know what they’re planning to do with Littlefinger, but the only thing I liked about sending Sansa to Winterfell this season was that it put an end to her scenes with him. I hope she’s learned not to trust him, and I do think she’ll take much more kindly to Brienne now. I still have a hunch that she might be pregnant, but I suppose we’ll have to wait until next week to find out.

  478. Scott4567,

    The quality fall off in the writing has been really hard to watch. Stannis (WTF?) Jon(WTF?), Dorne? Some of those actors I have been a fan of for a long time. Then there’s Dany (Jaw drops). (takes a breath) Okay, I’ll stop.

    What’s wrong with Jon? He has been great this season. And Dany’s story may not be great in the show but it mostly sucks in the books too.

  479. Chriss:
    I see some people wondering if the show will reveal the Harpy. Haha! You guys! Forget all of that. Like it never happened. That’s over now. We’ve travelled that short cut and got to where we needed to. It doesn’t matter anymore.

    You’re dealing with writers who didn’t even feel the need to explain who attempted to assassinate Bran in the first season. They literally just forgot about it. Remember, the show will get to where the books are, but just via a different path. And because D and D are tired now, that path will be rode roughshod.

    Cersei, fo sho

  480. Come on guys… I know a lot of you are emotionally drained after tonight, watching a sweet little girl be burned to death by her own father, then watching Dany jump on Drogon, emotional swings like that can be taxing and wear you down.

    Just remember, this is a TV show, no one really got burnt.

    This video hasn’t failed to put a smile on my face and I offer it up to all of you to turn your frown upside down!

    This video owns the internet! U have to click the link in the YouTube window, it wont play as a little YouTube box…

  481. I don’t understand how half the episode could be terrible while the other half great.

    The show is going mcbain level subtlety and shock value,
    this is basically the Davos/Shireen/Stannis scene
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyANa71gvU

    what a way to botch a character, if Shireen is burned by Mel and Selyse in TWoW, it fits in with their character motives. But hey lets just have Stannis do it so we can prove hes evil and maybe itll generate buzz for a week, shock value!

    And D&D claim stannis never changes his mind, lets all forget he said no to Mel last week…

  482. I really don’t see how this can happen in the books.

    Stannis isn’t going back to the wall. Mel is AT the wall, so what, she’s gonna send a raven to Stannis saying “let me burn your daughter” or have her sent down to Stannis to burn. Plus, she has the whole Jon resurrection thing to do, unless Jon’s in some sort of almost dead coma and this all happens while he’s out of it or warging or something. Just doesn’t make any sense of how this could happen considering where everybody is in the show and the things going on at the wall.
  483. I see lots of folks complaining about GRRM using phrases over and over – but I want to take a minute to point out that D&Ds writing is getting very predictable. They always telegraph when someone if about to die – so obvious with the Daavos/Shireen interaction. There is only a sunny minute this season when someone is going to get it

  484. Chriss: If you stay long enough, you’ll become one of us. Honestly, if you can, you’re better just avoiding forums altogether.

    I’m starting to realize that. I am going to stick it out for the end of the season. I need to stay away from the sites after that.

    I watch each episode and love them (mostly). And then I read people just ripping it apart for no reason.

  485. Watching the encore.

    Christ, Alexander Siddig looks fantastic for 54. DS9 needs a Netflix miniseries NOW. (Man, I’ve made like four Star Trek references and counting in this thread. I don’t know that happened.)

    I’m finding myself zoning out of of emotional rawness with the Shireen scenes. Just can’t do it again so soon. Alas, THE scene is en route…

  486. Simeon,

    I feel the same as him. I loved the Arys – Arianne love story. Even if you think Arianne was using him, Arys’ love for her was undoubtable. And that just serves to make it all the more tragic.

  487. Maester of Ceremonies:
    Turncloak,

    In the “Inside the Episode” following episode 9, they reveal:

    Will G.R.R.M. get TWOW published prior to S6? We can only hope.

    It would be stunning if GRRM doesn’t manage to get TWOW before season six, but not surprising. Think about it- ADWD was released when Season 1 premiered. He has managed to make it 5 years without releasing the book or even giving any indication that it is close to being published.

    I think that ADWD’s problems stem from poor editing, and I think that the poor editing is a result of rushing it out the door to coincide with the premier of GOT. I have a feeling that if TWOW is released before next season, it will be at least as slapdash. If he doesn’t get it released, then I wonder whether there will be repercussions with his publisher- he’ll be costing them a fortune. I’d love to know what his contract says.

  488. In fairness, Jon’s character arc has been good, and Hardhome while strictly show cannon, was cool. but Sam and Gilly? That’s only one. There are several, which in my opinion would have made for higher quality narrative.
    Yes Arianne and Arys is a love story. It is this romance that gives rise to the queenmaker plot. but is doesn’t matter, none of it is in the show! Yikes, I’m channeling AngryGOTfan. smh

    The North Remembers.

  489. Chriss: Torture porn? Surely we can’t have another full season of that!

    I get it, the show can do no wrong in your eyes. It’s all perfect. No doubt you just wish D and D could jettison the books altogether and come up with their own arcs. More Of their Dornish delights, more Craster’s. Well you’re probably in luck. They’ll no doubt have a very heavy input next season.

    Awwww. Maybe Mr. Martin could speed up a little. Then again, what for ? A faithful adaptation of aFfC/aDwD would have given you those three seasons I described before. We don´t really need more of that, so we should be happy GRRM gave them the essentials.

  490. So what should have Stannis done?

    March forward? Sit and wait? Both mean certain death. Therefore, retreat was the only other option. Retreat would involve mass casualties along the way, and even if he and his family did survive, they would be powerless traitors who would eventually be hunted down and killed. I am actually pretty glad most of the people here are not in charge, as it would ensure that monsters like Ramsay ruled the world forever.

  491. Chriss,

    You’re dealing with writers who didn’t even feel the need to explain who attempted to assassinate Bran in the first season. They literally just forgot about it.

    Better to forgot than to include that crappy reveal. By the time season 4 came around the audience had already forgotten about it or no longer cared who tried to assassinate Bran anyway.

  492. JamesL:
    Chriss,

    Better to forgot than to include that crappy reveal. By the time season 4 came around the audience had already forgotten or no longer cared who tried to assassinate Bran.

    Is that the way to do it then, in the future? A blueprint for TV shows? Set up a big mystery and just ignore it long enough for your audience to forget.

    I agree that the reveal wasn’t especially strong, or even that big, but it closed it. That was important. It wouldn’t have been hard for them to fling it in, especially since they made a big deal out of it in season one.

  493. Arthur:
    Moonlight,

    Sorry if my reply came out that way.I didn’t mean to offend you or question your opinion, that’s fine you don’t like that scene because it’s “unrealistic nobody tried to kill Dany when she was with Drogon.”

    I was just saying sometimes you have to turn your brain off a little to appreciate a fantasy sequence like this that’s all.

    But please don’t forget that nobody tried to kill Jon when he was hugging Ygritte as she died. Also the wights didn’t try to kill him after he defeated the white walker and collapsed to the floor. And I’ll go even further and say it was pretty unrealistic that the Wights that fell from the cliff waited so long to do so instead of doing it at the very beginning. And… (allow me one more please) when Sam was surrounded by Wights and WW and the next season there was just a single Wight following him, that was the most unbelievable moment for me in the series.

  494. Chriss:
    Simeon,

    I feel the same as him. I loved the Arys – Arianne love story. Even if you think Arianne was using him, Arys’ love for her was undoubtable. And that just serves to make it all the more tragic.

    Well, calling it a tragic tale of a guy being used would be one thing, but I would never describe that as a “beautiful medieval love story.”

    Not that what we got for Dorne was all that good — that’s one area, like Qarth, where the show really dropped the ball.