Game of Thrones S5 ratings remain stable with episode three, total views outpace last season

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Are you enjoying Axechucker’s Twitter post? I know I am! Let’s nevertheless take a short break for some Game of Thrones numbers revealed today (and last night).

The initial airing of episode three was seen by 6.71 million viewers – which is comparable to last week’s number – and won the night, despite facing NBA playoffs. The repeat at 11 pm added another 0.8 million.

A more impressive (and ultimately more important) number is the one of total viewers. So far, the premiere episode has been seen by 18.1 million people, which is more than a million more than what episode one of the last season achieved in the same period, HBO reports. This means we’re on a good way to break the record of 19.1 million viewers per episode on average from last year. Check out the official press release after the jump.

GAME OF THRONES®’ highly anticipated fifth season premiere conquered 18.1 million viewers to-date (Linear Plays + Live+7 DVR + HBO On Demand/HBO GO + HBO NOW). That’s approximately 1.2 million viewers more when compared to last year’s first episode after a similar period of time (16.9 million). GAME OF THRONES ultimately averaged a gross audience of 19.1 million viewers per episode for season 4, becoming the most watched season of an HBO series on record.

125 responses

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    1. I think episode 4 will have a bump in live viewers after the ending to episode 3. Episode 5 will probably make it back over 7 million for the first airing. I’m still curious as to how episode 1 had as many live viewers as it did. That could wind up being the high water mark for the entire series, outside of maybe the series finale.

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    2. So the sky isn’t falling? David & Dan aren’t ruining the series? That’s a shocker! Lol

      My big wonder if…. What is the viewership numbers for US plus the world…..

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    3. Oberyn’s left eye,

      I don’t think they will ‘skyrocket’. It should have a 300,000-400,000 viewer bump, but I don’t expect it to be back up to the premier number. I am curious to see what the total viewership will be, once all of the platforms are tallied up, including HBO Now. I read where the first week in total viewers was 1.2 million higher than the first week of season 4.

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    4. UK viewing figures always take weeks to be issued, but the total for Episode 1 over 7 days – not just live – was 2.63 million. I guess this includes repeat viewings and online streaming

      To put in perspective for subscription only channels the next highest was 1.06 million for a live football game( that’s soccer) and the highest for any show was 8.94 million on free to view for a “talent” show

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    5. Montreal hockey Game was over by 9:00pm this night, but not last week. Maybe more Canadians were watching! 🙂

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    6. I can only imagine that the episode leaks must have had something to do with the drop after the premiere. I mean, previous seasons have dropped a little bit following the premiere, but certainly not that much.

      I guess we’ll just have to wait and see after episode 5 airs.

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    7. John M W:
      I can only imagine that the episode leaks must have had something to do with the drop after the premiere. I mean, previous seasons have dropped a little bit following the premiere, but certainly not that much.

      I guess we’ll just have to wait and see after episode 5 airs.

      Also this season, being the first of the new trilogy, is a bit of a slow burn. Plus Dorne looks run down, not sure why…I was expecting more lavishness

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    8. The Bastard:
      So the sky isn’t falling?David & Dan aren’t ruining the series?That’s a shocker!Lol

      Ruin? No. But the major illogical plot holes in the new Winterfell and Dornish plot lines are annoying. I guess some people are better at just accepting illogical reasons for characters’ behavior and rolling with it than I am.

      Of course, the TV Apologists here at watchersonthewall tend to defend all changes, no matter how embarrassingly bad they are. They are almost has whacky as the nuts over at westeros.org that can’t shut up about “Thug Brienne”.

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    9. Uggh, can’t wait for episode 5.

      I went just over 3 weeks without seeing any spoilers for the leaked episodes, but then saw some significant details on episode four last night. So close…

      Serves me right for looking at Youtube comments, really, but still I’m bummed. I hate whoever it was that leaked the episodes.

      That’s good to hear about the view-count success, though. Episode 3 was great, the season’s gaining some real momentum now.

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    10. Chad Brick: Ruin? No. But the major illogical plot holes in the new Winterfell and Dornish plot lines are annoying. I guess some people are better at just accepting illogical reasons for characters’ behavior and rolling with it than I am.

      Of course, the TV Apologists here at watchersonthewall tend to defend all changes, no matter how embarrassingly bad they are. They are almost has whacky as the nuts over at westeros.org that can’t shut up about “Thug Brienne”.

      They are like those radical jews in gaza and the palestinians from hamas…both annoying as hell

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    11. Chad Brick,

      I think people just want to enjoy the entertainment. I understand if some can’t look past some of the inconsistencies. I am bugged by them at times, particularly the shifting size of each army to suit the plot.

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    12. Chad Brick,

      I always knew Sansa was going to go back north, kinda glad they left out her circlejerk in the Vale and skipped to the meaty parts. Dorne should have been cut and just make Jaime hand of the king and kill him off in finale, that would have been a tighter season without jumping all over the place. I was hoping for Mereene to be burned down already and have Dany sailing towards westeros, but the show runners are being to nice trying to let GRRM catch up with them. Hardhome episode should be close enough to Winds of Winter territory I hope ehe.

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    13. Chad Brick,

      I just dont find the inconsistencies large enough to bother me in any way…In fact, I think they justified it well to work in the show universe. Come on.. “Welcome home Lady Stark, The North Remembers”…. Goosebumps :'(.. I just wanna see Sansa kill them all =)

      The only change I truly *hated* was the pure BS that was Qarth… that was awful.

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    14. Chad Brick: Ruin? No. But the major illogical plot holes in the new Winterfell and Dornish plot lines are annoying. I guess some people are better at just accepting illogical reasons for characters’ behavior and rolling with it than I am.

      Of course, the TV Apologists here at watchersonthewall tend to defend all changes, no matter how embarrassingly bad they are. They are almost has whacky as the nuts over at westeros.org that can’t shut up about “Thug Brienne”.

      Because lord knows, if we actually fully enjoy the TV show for its own sake, we must be “apologists”. Can’t possibly be that we just love the show.

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    15. Chad Brick: Of course, the TV Apologists here at watchersonthewall tend to defend all changes, no matter how embarrassingly bad they are.

      Or maybe not everyone shares your opinion.

      I’m still not sold on some of the changes, but I’ll wait to see where it goes before wringing my hands and passing judgement.

      pau: They are like those radical jews in gaza and the palestinians from hamas…both annoying as hell

      And yet, here you are. Hmmm.

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    16. I have no doubts the ratings will rise up for 505 !

      Oh, by the way, slightly off topic : I hope Dominic Carter will get a Curtan Call !
      Granted Janos Slynt was not the most memorable character out there but Dominic was great in the role and present almost from the first !

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    17. Chad Brick,

      How do you know the changes are illogical? You’ve seen 3 (maybe 4) episodes of a 10 episode season. I’ll reserve judgement on whether or not the changes make sense to me until I’ve seen the full season and know exactly how the changes effect the overall story and I’d suggest you should do the same. Who knows, maybe you’ll like the changes even better than the original source material? lol

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    18. Chad Brick: Ruin? No. But the major illogical plot holes in the new Winterfell and Dornish plot lines are annoying. I guess some people are better at just accepting illogical reasons for characters’ behavior and rolling with it than I am.

      Of course, the TV Apologists here at watchersonthewall tend to defend all changes, no matter how embarrassingly bad they are. They are almost has whacky as the nuts over at westeros.org that can’t shut up about “Thug Brienne”.

      There is nothing wacky about people taking the time out of their day to discuss a show they enjoy. There is certainly something wacky about people watching something and then spending hours bashing it.

      As for the illogical plotholes…. Do you know Lord Baelish’s plans fully yet? How do you know the are illogical? Not enough of the story has been told.

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    19. Glad to know that the total # of viewers remains high at 18.1 million. It is the most important of the viewership #s.

      Love the photo of dear, departed Slynt in this post.

      Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      Or maybe not everyone shares your opinion.

      I’m still not sold on some of the changes, but I’ll wait to see where it goes before wringing my hands and passing judgement.

      I agree and thanks for saying it before I could. So now everyone here is a TV apologist. Yeah…I don’t think so.

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    20. Even less than last week.

      I don’t know about all of you, but my unsullied friends have been voicing their displeasure with the show lately and have been calling it “slow” and “boring”. It seems like interest with the casuals might be declining. We’ll need to wait for the E5 ratings to accurately determine if it’s true or not, though.

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    21. The Bastard: My big wonder if…. What is the viewership numbers for US plus the world…..

      That would really be interesting to know. Right now some films are doing way more biz outside the USA than in the USA. To point of turning double to triple the USA boxoffice.
      But finding out World-figures has so far been impossible unless on is talking pirating.

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    22. Yung Wolf,

      Its expected considering the source material. ADWD and AFFC are setup books for the endgame.

      But I love the slowed down pace, and the chance to just stop and examine the characters

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    23. I hear the “slow” complaints every year from certain sects. Even last year, lol.

      Some people just want sword fights, major deaths and insane cliffhangers ever episode.

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    24. Our Hockey game finished at 9 in Montreal (Canada), so fans were probably able to tune in on time for the episode’s airing, unlike last week’s airing~

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    25. I don’t care about the people complaining it is slow.

      Those people can go watch The Avengers Cinematic Universe, Fast & Furious Series, Transformers, and many many other movies.

      For the people who get bored with constant action and actually want some plot…. GoT is where it is at.

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    26. Yung Wolf,

      Even if some of the fringe casual fans stop watching the show, what does that matter? The show has 18 Million viewers by HBO calculations in the US alone. The numbers internationally are probably impressive as well. Not to mention the jugernaut it has become in home video sales and merchandising.

      GoT in the US could lose 2 million viewers on average from now to the end of season 7 and the show will still have a huge budget to complete the story. And for the people who enjoy the show, that is all that matters.

      I used to follow another show on television where fans were ratings obsessed. That never made any sense to me. Ratings should only matter for if the show will be cancelled or not. In GoT’s case, it matters if the show will get a big enough budget. Based on current numbers, the show is not at risk of getting cancelled and not at risk of getting their budget slashed. It’s a non issue.

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    27. Nymeria Warrior Queen: Or maybe not everyone shares your opinion.

      I’m still not sold on some of the changes, but I’ll wait to see where it goes before wringing my hands and passing judgement.

      And yet, here you are.Hmmm.

      I was here since day one…this people are the minority. Annoying but what can you do. (I’m talking about the ones that call martin a fat blob and have a linda vodoo doll, or those who hate on every little change D&D make)

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    28. You can tell who is who because the tv “crazy” apologetics want the show to finish in 7 seasons instead of wanting more (like they should, if the show is so good) and the “crazy” book purists want the show they hate so much to have as much seasons as possible. Uh

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    29. pau,

      I love the show and want it ended in 7 seasons. I just want a good ending. Thank god Benoiff is an amazing writer. He might be better then GRRM. There, I said it.

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    30. The Bastard,

      I don’t understand people complaining about how slow it is. You don’t need to have read AFFC/ADWD to know that large stories need to be paced like this, with intermittent “cooldown” periods that set up the next earth-shattering event. Did people expect season 5 to outdo season 4’s final plot points right off the bat? Was Tyrion supposed to squeeze through the sh*t hole in his crate, surf back across the Narrow Sea on a kraken and then chop off Cersei’s head with a Valyrian steel katana?

      This isn’t Breaking Bad where it makes sense to have constant tension and escalation from the first episode to the last; here, there are conflicts spanning entire kingdoms which the show-runners need to juggle very carefully. Or else we’d get burnt out, stop taking it seriously, and suddenly this awesome fantasy world would no longer feel real to us.

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    31. James:
      The Bastard,

      I don’t understand people complaining about how slow it is. You don’t need to have read AFFC/ADWD to know that large stories need to be paced like this, with intermittent “cooldown” periods that set up the next earth-shattering event. Did people expect season 5 to outdo season 4’s final plot points right off the bat? Was Tyrion supposed to squeeze through the sh*t hole in his crate, surf back across the Narrow Sea on a Kraken and chop off Cersei’s head with a Valyrian steel katana?

      This isn’t Breaking Bad where it makes sense to have constant tension and escalation from the first episode to the last; here, there are conflicts spanning entire kingdoms which the show-runners need to juggle very carefully. Or else we’d get burnt out, stop taking it seriously, and suddenly this awesome fantasy world would no longer feel real to us.

      That is one of the major problems with many television shows. They constantly pump up the volume just for the sake of doing so and it burns the show out. It also makes the viewers expecting something bigger and bigger to happen each week. LOST did this. And then at some point viewers realized half of the episodes had no point and the ending was garbage.

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    32. pau,

      A lot of those book purists only want the show to go on so long to give GRRM the chance to release as much of the books as possible. They still hate the show, and they’re still crazy.

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    33. cosca,

      And that is where a lot of the hate is coming from this year from the book purists. Any changes to the books are driving them insane. Not only does it change what GRRM did, it also speeds up the story.

      If Books 4 & 5 were good, perhaps I would mind more if the story changed. Personally, I think the show has made major improvements on the story.

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    34. pau,

      I think people who want a show to retain it’s quality want 7-8 seasons. I can’t name one great prestige drama that has lasted 9+ seasons. Most of them don’t last more than 6 or 7 seasons. I just don’t think average Joe tv viewer would stick with the show if they actually introduced most of the new characters from AFFC/ADWD and tried to stretch those books out over 2 seasons.

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    35. pau: I was here since day one…this people are the minority. Annoying but what can you do. (I’m talking about the ones that call martin a fat blob and have a linda vodoo doll, or those who hate on every little change D&D make)

      My bad, I read what you said as saying they were the majority, not the minority.

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    36. I don’t find the series slow at all. Any form of Character Development is welcome in my book.

      For the few who think the series is moving slow forget to compare Season 1 and 5.

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    37. Chad Brick: Ruin? No. But the major illogical plot holes in the new Winterfell and Dornish plot lines are annoying. I guess some people are better at just accepting illogical reasons for characters’ behavior and rolling with it than I am.

      Of course, the TV Apologists here at watchersonthewall tend to defend all changes, no matter how embarrassingly bad they are. They are almost has whacky as the nuts over at westeros.org that can’t shut up about “Thug Brienne”.

      You act like you book purist are important. Nobody gives a flying Pycell fuck about you guys. This is a TV show that gains viewership based on an hour of entertainment.
      I love my ASOIAF books but the cost I payed for them is not the same as I pay to watch this show and I don’t want to hang the pages side by side next to my TV like some idiot that does not know the difference.

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    38. Man – there sure is a lot of name calling. Do we have infiltrators from other websites coming in to start a ruckus? Guess I must be a crazy person because I actually respect GRRM, B & W, and love the books and the show. I just feel mighty lucky to be able to experience all. And used to like to read these posts before it turned into WW3 here.

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    39. Chad Brick: Ruin? No. But the major illogical plot holes in the new Winterfell and Dornish plot lines are annoying. I guess some people are better at just accepting illogical reasons for characters’ behavior and rolling with it than I am.

      Of course, the TV Apologists here at watchersonthewall tend to defend all changes, no matter how embarrassingly bad they are. They are almost has whacky as the nuts over at westeros.org that can’t shut up about “Thug Brienne”.

      I’ve found a large percentage of the overall viewership, both book readers and non-book readers as skeptical of the Sansa marrying Ramsay thing. Even I am a bit skeptical of it. But let’s wait and see what happens. At the very least, to D&D’s credits, there are reasons to do it. Having Jeyne Poole be in that position like the book has little to no impact on the TV viewer since Jeyne Poole is an insignificant characte rin the show (and largely is in the book). And using Sansa’s book storyline at this point, where she does absolutely nothing was never going to happen. They needed to add more weight to the Winterfell storyline and give Sansa something to do, so this is what we get.

      As for Dorne, I won’t discuss spoilers, but let’s just say that if they loyally followed the book in that storyline it would be a problem as a lot of that storyline is filler.

      D&D have made mistakes before (Shae, moving back the battle at the wall as examples). But overall they’ve done a great job and at times have even improved upon the storyline (Arya in particular). They deserve the benefit of the doubt.

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    40. Cersei’s Brain:
      Man – there sure is a lot of name calling.Do we have infiltrators from other websites coming in to start a ruckus?Guess I must be a crazy person because I actually respect GRRM, B & W, and love the books and the show.I just feel mighty lucky to be able to experience all.And used to like to read these posts before it turned into WW3 here.

      I started out lurking on WIC back in the day, moved over here during the Great Migration, and have maintained my lurker status since. I used to be able to depend on WOTW to offer up a tasty mix of praise and criticism of the show in all its various threads. But lately it seems that any criticism, whether well thought out or off the cuff, is almost immediately met with snide remarks and/or labeling of the person offering a dissenting opinion.

      I came to the show as a book reader and my experience as a viewer has been more positive than not. I understand that the very nature of an adaptation requires changes to the source material and have been (mostly) able to roll with those changes, But it’s disconcerting, not to mention uncomfortable, to witness the vitriol that’s been occurring since this season’s premiere and which has been directed at folks who have problems with the plotlines as presented. And it seems to me, more and more, that if you don’t tow the majority party’s line, you’re not welcome here anymore.

      Let’s be realistic. D&D aren’t gods. They’re not perfect. Neither is GRRM. All parties have made errors in they ways they’ve chosen to present this particular story. It doesn’t have to be ‘everything is perfect’ or ‘everything is shit’ when it comes to the show or the ASOIAF series. There is a middle ground to be had. I really wish more folks would try to remember that and act accordingly. This isn’t a freaking contest about who’s right and who’s not or whose story is being better told. It’s a forum for the exchange of ideas and varying opinions, not a battleground. Or at least it shouldn’t be. Not long ago I could count WOTW as one of the few places that felt welcoming to me and where I could come to read posts that would make me laugh and think and allow me to chill with like-minded (or not) folks. Now it’s just stressing me the fuck out.

      No one needs to tell me if I don’t like what’s going on, I can leave. I’m well aware of that, but I’m also hopeful I don’t reach the point where that’s the choice I have to make. I simply felt the need to share my opinion on behalf of other long-time lurkers who may be feeling as out of sorts as I have lately. I have huge respect for the mods around here, most of whom I’ve followed since long before many of the posters on WOTW discovered the awesomeness of these folks behind the curtain and what they’ve given us here. But a website like this is ultimately a reflection of the people who participate in it. I’d just like to see a more balanced, fair-minded (and dare I say, polite) representation of all opinions. And with that I bid you all a good night and resume my lurker status.

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    41. Chad Brick,

      Chad Brick: Ruin? No. But the major illogical plot holes in the new Winterfell and Dornish plot lines are annoying. I guess some people are better at just accepting illogical reasons for characters’ behavior and rolling with it than I am.

      Of course, the TV Apologists here at watchersonthewall tend to defend all changes, no matter how embarrassingly bad they are. They are almost has whacky as the nuts over at westeros.org that can’t shut up about “Thug Brienne”.

      Why are you here? And please do not say nasty things about Brienne. Or quote people who say nasty things about Brienne. Or whatever.

      I read the books. I watch the show. I am happy. With both. Get over it!

      This is the coolest place on the web for Game of Thrones discussion. Please do not infect it with negativity. There are other places you can do that. Please. Thank you.

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    42. Stella:
      Chad Brick,

      Why are you here? And please do not say nasty things about Brienne. Or quote people who say nasty things about Brienne. Or whatever.

      I am not saying nasty things about Brienne. The purists (mostly guys, of course) over a westeros.org do, however. The “Thug Brienne” meme relates to her drawing first against the Hound (and again against LF’s knights). Of course these same guys were probably irate when Lucus switched Han Solo from shooting first to shooting second vs Greedo, but apparently a woman who draws first is automatically a thug. In fact, Brienne’s E3 scene was of the best she has had in a while. I was getting tired of the crap-on-Pod schtick and am glad it is over. She also remains the biggest wild card in S5, and I am enjoying that. She could result in everything from the reappearance of a certain someone to some sort of Able-esque role in Winterfell. Who knows?

      I love the show. It is my favorite show on TV by far. The books are among my favorite things I have ever read. That doesn’t somehow obligate me to be silent in my criticisms. Maybe D&D couldn’t have done better given the constraint of trying to cram almost two book’s worth of material into one season. But in doing so, they have had to make a lot of compromises, and the seams are pretty easy to see if you look. The butterfly effect problems will only get worse from here, I expect. D&D can escape some of the problems by either ignoring and dropping them, or by their often used brute-force exposition method (where the audience is supposed to swallow what was said but not think through the consequences), but this can get old quickly for those who do think them through. My suspension of belief can handle dragons. It can’t handle jetpacks and a Moletown Walmart capable of feeding 100,000 people, or even an army of several thousand for an extra fortnight just so we can get some Mel/Jon almost-seduction. GRRM, in contrast, handles this kind of matter extremely well, which is one reason people love the books so much. D&D just glide over a mass of contradictions. Perhaps the medium forces them to, but it doesn’t need to be as bad as it is.

      Oh, and then there is Chekov’s third leech. It has been stuck on the wall for almost two seasons now. That’s just bad story-telling, period.

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    43. Chad Brick,

      Didn’t Balon Greyjoy die offscreen in one of Catelyns POV chapters? Maybe the writers want to show his death on screen, or just have someone talk about it before segueing to an iron islands scene. Problem Solved but then again it will suck because it wasn’t like the books.

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    44. Chad Brick,

      I never understood the jetpack complaint. There are only ten episodes. The story dictates that sometimes weeks will pass over the course of an episode or 2. It’s been this way since the start, when Ned and company traveled from the North to Kings Landing in less than two episodes. Catelyn also traveled from Winterfell to KL to the Riverlands in less than 2 episodes. Why, because the story required it.

      I’m not sure I understand the complaint about feeding the wildlings and Stannis’ army either. Did Jon not mention to Stannis in this last episode that the NW could not afford to continue to feed them? And don’t they face the same problems in the books? Or are you saying there should be a scene where the wildlings are shown basically starving? In which case I would counter, who is to say a scene like that won’t happen in a future episode?

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    45. The show has been a little bit creaky lately with respect to those plotlines that are radically different from the books, but I think it’s wrong to see this as a reflection on the abilities of the writers. As a book writer, GRRM can organically go wherever the story takes him – the very reason he went from television to writing books in the first place. But the Sansa-to-Winterfell and Jamie-to-Dorne plotlines are there because the showrunners had problems to solve, which were to do with the constraints of the medium. I don’t think it should be a surprise that these might now flow as gracefully as the material derived from the book, at least while they’re setting things up.

      That said, Sansa’s change of heart on going to Winterfell needed more work.

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    46. Well, it has gotten rather emotional here lately, on both sides. (If you want my opinion, well, I’m still here, I still very much like the show.)

      But back on topic: Here’s hoping the total viewership for episodes 2-4 ends up being at least comparable to that first episode and higher than last season. If it does, there’s no reason to worry. (Please, Old Gods and the New, make it so.)
      If it drops somewhat, then there’s risk of HBO rethinking their approach somewhat (less or no screeners, not so open with say even this site, …).
      If it drops a lot, then there could be risk of HBO wanting to slash the budget somewhat for the remaining seasons.

      Now on the bright side, whatever it ends up being, GOT will get the full run (7 seasons and maybe something extra on top of it) with hopefully a sufficient budget.

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    47. The Bastard:
      pau,

      I love the show and want it ended in 7 seasons.I just want a good ending.Thank god Benoiff is an amazing writer.He might be better then GRRM.There, I said it.

      Of course you do…you”re one of those I was referring to 😉

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    48. cosca:
      pau,

      A lot of those book purists only want the show to go on so long to give GRRM the chance to release as much of the books as possible. They still hate the show, and they’re still crazy.

      Lol yes, and the tv jihadists want the show to finish in 7 for exact same logic, but in this case to fuck Martin over. That is exactly what I was saying. It’s. The same. Fucking. Thing!

      So funny 😉

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    49. Stella:
      Chad Brick,

      Why are you here? And please do not say nasty things about Brienne. Or quote people who say nasty things about Brienne. Or whatever.

      I read the books. I watch the show. I am happy. With both. Get over it!

      This is the coolest place on the web for Game of Thrones discussion. Please do not infect it with negativity. There are other places you can do that. Please. Thank you.

      Tbh it’s you who is giving bad vibes and negativity. Chad is expressing valid concerns in a civil manner. You’re jumping at his throat for no reason. What is your problem, can’t accept soneone with different opinions than yours?

      You are the epitomy of all that is wrong in the internet

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    50. amplifyme: I started out lurking on WIC back in the day, moved over here during the Great Migration, and have maintained my lurker status since. I used to be able to depend on WOTW to offer up a tasty mix of praise and criticism of the show in all its various threads. But lately it seems that any criticism, whether well thought out or off the cuff, is almost immediately met with snide remarks and/or labeling of the person offering a dissenting opinion.

      I came to the show as a book reader and my experience as a viewer has been more positive than not. I understand that the very nature of an adaptation requires changes to the source material and have been (mostly) able to roll with those changes, But it’s disconcerting, not to mention uncomfortable, to witness the vitriol that’s been occurring since this season’s premiere and which has been directed at folks who have problems with the plotlines as presented.And it seems to me, more and more, that if you don’t tow the majority party’s line, you’re not welcome here anymore.

      Let’s be realistic. D&D aren’t gods. They’re not perfect. Neither is GRRM. All parties have made errors in they ways they’ve chosen to present this particular story. It doesn’t have to be ‘everything is perfect’ or ‘everything is shit’ when it comes to the show or the ASOIAF series. There is a middle ground to be had. I really wish more folks would try to remember that and act accordingly. This isn’t a freaking contest about who’s right and who’s not or whose story is being better told. It’s a forum for the exchange of ideas and varying opinions, not a battleground. Or at least it shouldn’t be. Not long ago I could count WOTW as one of the few places that felt welcoming to me and where I could come to read posts that would make me laugh and think and allow me to chill with like-minded (or not) folks. Now it’s just stressing me the fuck out.

      No one needs to tell me if I don’t like what’s going on, I can leave. I’m well aware of that, but I’m also hopeful I don’t reach the point where that’s the choice I have to make. I simply felt the need to share my opinion on behalf of other long-time lurkers who may be feeling as out of sorts as I have lately. I have huge respect for the mods around here, most of whom I’ve followed since long before many of the posters on WOTW discovered the awesomeness of these folks behind the curtain and what they’ve given us here. But a website like this is ultimately a reflection of the people who participate in it. I’d just like to see a more balanced, fair-minded (and dare I say, polite) representation of all opinions. And with that I bid you all a good night and resume my lurker status.

      Well said 😉

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    51. As a book reader and someone who is slightly pissed off with the show recently I don’t want them to increase it over 7 seasons as to give GRRM time to finish his books. That’s a stupid argument. I’m even fine with them if they want to cut out complete story lines. But like many book readers we’re worried that they’re making characters do/take/make illogical decisions/actions that will ultimately make the show not believable (as a whole).

      I don’t hate D&D, and they done an amazing job working with what they had from material and transferring that to the screen, but they should have planned ahead. They followed the books to a certain point (red wedding) and decided to unfollow them all of a sudden after, and they’re creating major plot holes in the process (well in my opinion anyway); just to create impactful scenes and shocking moments (because they feel like they need to live up to the pace of what they’re continually outpacing). From the very start they should have sat down (knowing they only contracted people for 7 years) and said look we’re going to need to cut this and this out and thus we need to adapt and have these major characters like Varys not working against their future selves and all of a sudden jump ship (a seemingly stupid move from a rather intelligent person).

      We (majority of book readers) don’t have a problem with changes, on the contrary, changes are keeping us entertained, but the changes need to logically make sense. I’ve said this before, D&D have asked for patience and said their changes will make sense once we understand the full picture. So I’m waiting for the full picture to judge them wholly on what they’ve ‘created’. But a man can be worried.

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    52. Mustafa. S.:

      I was refering to a very vocal minority on both camps. I feel pretty much like you do, although I would prefer 8 seasons. I also understand that circumstances have changed and D&D probably don’t have as much control as they used to over the show. And probably are a bit tired of spending so much time working away from home

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    53. Mustafa. S.,

      They have planned ahead. They planned Ramsey/Sansa from S2.

      And about Varys. He testified against Tyrion and he saved his life. Is that illogical for you? Or isn’t, because that was in the books?

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    54. Man I am so happy that the show runners are competent and none of the people whining will ever be in a position to affect this show or its direction. Book readers are just insufferable. I’m amazed the show is as streamlined/comprehensive as it is, and I hope they change anything and everything that needs to be changed so they condense thousands of pages into less than 600 minutes of TV.

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    55. A bit OT, but I just finished my first binge rewatch of Season 4 (a bit later than usual) and it’s even better than I remember it. Some of the weaker spots — lack of progress on Dragonstone and the Wall, for instance — barely register when I view the season as one 10 hour-long movie. I am now convinced S4 really was the best season to date. It feels fabulously smooth, well-plotted, and rich in character. Episodes 6-10 are probably the best 5-episode run of the show thus far, even eclipsing the great eps 6-10 of Season 1.

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    56. Kappa:
      Man I am so happy that the show runners are competent and none of the people whining will ever be in a position to affect this show or its direction. Book readers are just insufferable. I’m amazed the show is as streamlined/comprehensive as it is, and I hope they change anything and everything that needs to be changed so they condense thousands of pages into less than 600 minutes of TV.

      Wonderfully said.

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    57. Kappa,

      They’re doing a really good job so far with the AFFC/ADWD,but people will always criticize them.As a book reader,I’m pretty much happy with the changes that have been made and we’re getting straight to the endgame without boring parts like in the books.George is taking his time to build up the key moments and sometimes it’s frustrating.It’s a damn good TV show.I could imagine 8th season or 15-16 episodes in the 7th season.We’ll see how it goes.

      Hopefully that the ending will be good and same like in the books.Benioff talked about it(it will be practically very similiar),because I can’t stand Jon/Dany a happy ending ever after or smething like that.I know a lot of my non book readers want it ho happen,but I have faith in GRRM and D&D.

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    58. Geralt of Rivia,

      It’ll definitely be a bittersweet ending, the show hasn’t shied away from hard-hitting moments. Of the 6 principal POV characters (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa and Bran) I foresee half of them being dead by the end of it. Ruthless and tragic, it’s going to be heartbreaking.

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    59. Annie Wilkes,

      Sand Snakes are pretty much like in the books according to people who has seen leaked episodes.Alexander Siddig as Doran Martell is to me perfect casting choice and Indira Varma/Ellaria is another success.You can question her motives,because in the books she’s against vengeance and mourns Oberyn.Trystane is ok.

      People expect boring stuff,but have this feeeling that it will be actually a pretty good arc in this season with Doran’s speech as the highest point.I’m intrigued to see how all of this will pan out in Dorne with Jaime there.If Trystane is Aegon or not…if D&D will do Dorne supports Dany,because she will invade Westeros rather sooner than latter.She needs alliance from Westeros and this is could be a logical choice through Trystane/fAegon Dany marriage proposal.

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    60. Kappa:
      Man I am so happy that the show runners are competent and none of the people whining will ever be in a position to affect this show or its direction. Book readers are just insufferable. I’m amazed the show is as streamlined/comprehensive as it is, and I hope they change anything and everything that needs to be changed so they condense thousands of pages into less than 600 minutes of TV.

      When you say book readers I guess you meant book purists. D&D are book readers too. It’s starting to feel like Farenheit 451 😛

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    61. Annie Wilkes,

      We shall see..I know alot of my friends that didn’t bother watching on the day the episodes aired live simply because they already had watched the leaks..

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    62. pau,

      Yeah I think that’s what he meant to say,..I myself am a book reader but my world doesn’t come crashing down around me the moment D and D decide to change something about the story from the books..I’m looking at you Strong Belwas,Dario’s blue hair,lady SH,cold hands, and Riverlands Jamie plot!

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    63. I could be wrong, but maybe what Mustafa. S. was referring to re Varys was the fact that at the start of the show he was trying to aassassinate Dany via Jorah (and very nearly would have succeeded if it wasn’t for Jorah having a change of heart), but now it turns out he’s been backing her the whole time. Kinda doesn’t really make sense to me. It works fine in the books cos of the Griff storyline where he’s not backing Dany, but in the show it seems a bit strange. Perhaps I’m remembering things wrong, or I’ve missed some vital info along the way that explains this, but I can’t think of what that might be. Any thoughts on this?

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    64. Why do people that anyone who doesn’t think the show is perfect gets attacked here. That’s not what happens. There was a largely civil debate on the Sansa Ramsay storyline on the recap thread with several people expressing concerns.

      It’s the people who are constantly negative that annoy others. Those are the ones called trolls.

      It’s always hilarious to me when people are shocked that a fan site for the show has show fans on it though.

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    65. Steve,

      I’m fairly biased regarding Varys but I have always believed that he and Illyrio supported the Targs V, A, and D in that order (maybe V & A were switched in priority…there is no proof) ….from a book perspective. Varys was also two-faced with KL (Baratheon/Lannister regimes). He protected the Targs even though he initiated kill orders from the king. Jorah was critical in that position…protecting Dany from the setups.

      When V got killed in the show, since there is no A, all secret external Targ support shifted to D.

      Also, I don’t believe the hogwash that Jorah kidnapped Tyrion in book and show. Varys/Illyrio handed Tyrion to Jorah. In the books, it was to get Tyrion (via Haldon) out of the way (so they could focus on A) and to get depressed Jorah back on track. In the show, it is simply to use Jorah to escort Tyrion to Slaver’s Bay while Varys goes back west to prep….or so I assume. 🙂 But in both scenarios, Jorah and Tyrion’s trip east will get a bit convoluted.

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    66. pau: When you say book readers I guess you meant book purists. D&D are book readers too. It’s starting to feel like Farenheit 451

      Of course, around here, anyone who criticizes anything of consequence in the show and simultaneously notes that criticized element was different from what occurred in the source is immediately labelled a “purist”, or worse.

      In fact, there are no “purists”. Every last GoT fan on earth understand that cuts and changes must occur in a book to film adaptation. Rather, there are show fans that can handle or even enjoy criticism of the show, and those that simply cannot. The latter defend even the most inconsistent plot holes and cringe-worthy moments, to what end I cannot fathom.

      Maybe I watch shows in a different way than you. For example, I loved the scene with White Rat back in E1. Great stuff, even though it was not literally in the books (though certainly stuff like it was happening in the background). You probably enjoyed it too. But I bet your first thought as he walked over to his chosen prostitute and handed her some coins wasn’t “Hmmm, I wonder how Dany is paying the Unsullied? Is it money looted from Astapor or Yunkai? Or is she taxing the Meereenese? How does the Targ IRS work?”. GRRM has done an awesome job of dealing with this, and readers actually have a pretty good idea how people are getting paid or fed (or not), for example. Obviously, the show has to skip by this stuff, and this is fine IF there are plausible explanations for it. Other times, like when Stannis says he is going to hang around Castle Black for a couple more weeks for no apparent reason (note that his army would be consuming a couple tons of grain per day, plus fodder for the horses, and the Bolton defenses aren’t getting any weaker), bug me. Stannis telling Jon and his merry band of 50 to burn tens of thousands of wildlings makes no sense at all, either. There is no way the show-Watch could control, let alone execute, the wildlings. Even though the book-Watch had ~10 times as many men after the big battle at the Wall, Stannis still had to leave a contingent at the Wall to help out and guard his family. Of course, show-Stannis has more soldiers, so he could afford to do so, but it sure didn’t sound like he intended to or had even considered it. To me, these are just holes in the plot, which D&D may plug or may just ignore. Perhaps this doesn’t bother you, but it does bother a lot of other people. Either way, plot holes are like a disease. Plug one, you create two. Ignore one, and you create three. The butterfly effect builds up pretty quickly.

      The big trap that I am starting to see in this respect is that D&D’s changes are starting to build up so much that characters no longer logically would take the course of action they took in the book at roughly the same point. Thus characters have to go completely off-book, or engage in something that is rather irrational from their show-perspective because they have better options in the TV-universe that they did not have at the analogous moment in the books. This concerns me.

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    67. Chad Brick: Other times, like when Stannis says he is going to hang around Castle Black for a couple more weeks for no apparent reason (note that his army would be consuming a couple tons of grain per day, plus fodder for the horses, and the Bolton defenses aren’t getting any weaker), bug me. Stannis telling Jon and his merry band of 50 to burn tens of thousands of wildlings makes no sense at all, either. There is no way the show-Watch could control, let alone execute, the wildlings.

      On your first Stannis point, I thought Stannis meant that his army would be gone within the fortnight in order to avoid the coming snows. At least, that is how I interpreted it.

      On your second Stannis point, maybe that is the grand Stannis levity in play, given Jon’s decision to stay and Mance’s previous mortal decision? Stannis wants Jon to find some useful role for the wildlings…it is truly Jon’s burden.

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    68. The high ratings for episode one, followed by some fall reflects what is being adopted. I know that I attacked book 4 like a maniac, only to be disappointed. Then I started tearing through book 5, only to be disappointed again.

      The show has to change that, if it is to keep any viewers at all; for anyone who thinks that any ratings fall is a result of D&D’s divergence from the book material is living in a fantasy world where GRRM knows all, and divergence from his godliness will bring a curse.

      D&D are trying, mightily, to keep their viewers by converging characters, arcs, creating some sort of a beginning-middle-end to storylines that wandered aimlessly through the last two books. Would forcing Brienne to ride around, no aim in sight, for an entire season up the ratings? Would Sansa sitting at Baelish’s feet at the Eyrie for an entire season up the ratings? Would having Jon go through food storage for an entire season up the ratings? How about Tyrion sightseeing, and contemplating turtles, and asking, ad nauseam, “where do whores go?” Would that help? Really? Truly? What about reducing the time the show gives to characters we love by introducing the Greyjoys? That help? No. No, it wouldn’t.

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    69. Maria,

      What a load of horse sh1t. Book 4 (although many of my friends found it to be boring) was one of my favourite books. Book 5 was even better. I don’t know how anyone who consider themselves a fan of the series (ASOIAF) can say this book was boring or that book was boring. I love the entire series, I might prefer one book over another, but there isn’t any of them that I found to be boring. What plots you found boring were the most entertaining for me. Sam & Brienne’s chapters were some of my favourites! I loved every one of them.

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    70. I hope everyone keeps perspective on this by realizing that it honestly doesn’t matter *what* the ratings are… it only matters how much HBO thinks it’s making versus spending.

      Sure, the ratings tanking to season one levels when the show wasn’t as well known would give them huge pause for a renewal for a seventh season – but nobody really expects that, do they? Every reader of the books in the world could suddenly get upset at a development in the series they don’t like and stop watching, and the ratings would still not drop a few million (that’s just common sense).

      We’ve had four years of increases, but with the new ways people can watch, the screener downloads, word of mouth, etc., a constant upward trend is unsustainable. At some point the ratings were going to have to level out, and it’s pretty much done so. At the top, relative to last year. And that’s fine. It’s still HBO’s flagship series, and if it maintains anywhere near these ratings, and doesn’t undergo an enormous drop — again, it’s COMPLETELY illogical to think it will — it will go for seven years, maybe longer if they want.

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    71. Shaz,

      I don’t expect any massacre,but I just can’t see all of them still alive.GRRM originally planned that Jon/Dany,Tyrion/Bran and Arya will be alive at the end of the story,but that was in 1993.Things could change.Well,let’s just enjoy the ride and we’ll see.

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    72. mau:
      Mustafa. S.,

      They have planned ahead. They planned Ramsey/Sansa from S2.

      And about Varys. He testified against Tyrion and he saved his life. Is that illogical for you? Or isn’t, because that was in the books?

      He did testify against Tyrion, because he had to; he was being compelled to by Cersei. But at the end of Season 2, he told Tyrion he would never forget what Tyrion did at Blackwater, even if the rest of the world did. That fact, plus the knowledge that, as Varys has said this season, Tyrion is a ‘man of talent’ who certainly could have some great impact on future events, has made Varys’ choices completely understandable.

      Varys is not a villain, nor is he a hero; he’s a calculating man with his own agenda, but more importantly, he’s a creature of stability. A strong, stable government is something he thrives in; a chaotic government usually leads to people like Varys being shot/stabbed/etc.

      Considering he was banking on a Targaryen return as early as season 1 with his scenes with Illyrio, his actions in Game of Thrones have been entirely consistent all the way through. He only had to bet on a different Targaryen when Viserys died, but he’s still on their side.

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    73. Mustafa. S.

      I’m a fan of the books, though I don’t like the last two. I got into the series very late, toward the end of last season. It’s fine that you thought the bits I found dull were exciting; it’s all subjective. All that means is that I understand D&D’s choices, as I don’t believe the last two installments would translate well into a tv show.

      I’ll go back to Brienne: I think the show does a better, less gender-stereotyped job with her than the novel. In the novel, Brienne is a woman in love, first with Renly, then with Jaime. Romance is the default motive for women, and this romance makes her a bit pathetic–Renly is gay, and she never seems aware of that. Brienne is asked to go after Sansa, but her quest is ineffective. She’s involved with new characters, and dead-end side quests. Her pov describes a war-torn Riverlands, which is nothing new, as Arya’s pov described the same thing, earlier. Her fights don’t show off how good she is, as she fights people the reader doesn’t know.

      In the show, she finds Arya and the Hound, which ties her quest to major charcters, rather than complete strangers. She defeats the Hound, not more strangers. That underlines her ability as a fighter; anyone who can defeat the Hound is good at what they do.

      She then meets Sansa, and follows her, which keeps her in the main story rather than sidelined with Dick, Hyle, Maribald, LS. She wants to save Sansa and avenge Renly by killing Stannis, which she is capable of; she defeated the Hound. She’s not pathetically in love with Renly but loves him, as a friend. She knows that he’s gay, so she’s not ignorant of his reality. Her story humanizes Renly, too. Now we know why he was popular.

      I think these are improvements. It’s all subjective.

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    74. To the people who don’t get why Varys is going against his former self (it was regarding his anti-dany/pro-dany sudden shift in the show). Varys is a person who is pursuing stability and control (he’s the opposite of little-finger in the political game).

      Maria,

      Regarding Brienne, in the books she had her own story, she went from being a secondary character to a forefront one.

      In the series and it’s becoming very obvious now after episode three:

      Brienne is taking over Mance’s storyline from the books (with regards to Winterfell). The reason why I think they’re doing it is back to the bathtub scene with Jamie from a few seasons ago (when he was trying to tell her you swear so many vows, that you always end up in a situation where you’re forced to break one vow for another, and that kills you inside)… She’s going to have to decide probably between saving Sansa (who is also acting as Alayne-stone-heart), saving Pod, and/or killing Stannis (they already built up to why she wants to avenge Renly and reminded the viewers this episode)… What makes this so special in the books is we know how her and Jamie’s storyline ended (the cliffhanger)… But the significance of the decisions she was about to make there (in the books) was build up to for two books… So I hope they do it justice (with their change). Oath-keeper-breaker.

      So I hope this makes you and others realise the importance of where her story was going in the books and why she met who she met, and how opposing/similar those characters are/were to each other.

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    75. What a lovely comment section here. OK, confess, who cried him/herself a river when they cut *Edd, fetch me a block* ? Sacrilege !

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    76. flintwielder,

      I kind of forgot about that line, I haven’t picked up ADWD since 2011. I remember Jon was going to hang Janos but his internal monologue said killing an unarmed man is not right, instead he just wanted to cut his head off the Stark way. Ed fetch me only cat was never in the back of my mind, just the hanging part.

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    77. I’m ok with most changes. I enjoy the show for what it is (an adaptation that can’t be an exact copy of the books) and I also enjoy the books (though I must admit AFFC and ADWD were dissapointing). Are there things I’d have liked to see included on the show? Things I wish they had done different? Yes, of course, the show is not perfect, but what a lot of book readers seem to forget is that, neither are the books.

      For years I have seen people complaining about the show, not because of the things they had done wrong, but because is was not exactly like the books, I’ve seen so many times the “is not like in the books” argument used against the show that it has lost all meaning to me, and is really hard to see so many people hate-watching the show just because things are not exactly like they want them to be. I’m tired of people accusing the show of being sexist because it has female nudity and rape when the books had Dany wearing a one-tit robe for a whole book, and chapter after chapter of Arya seeing people being tortured, maimed and raped. I’m tired of people not letting the Lady Stoneheart thing go, I’m tired of seeing people insulting D&D for making changes, I’m tired of the arrogant attitude of some book readers that think people need to read the books to be a true fan, I’m tired of people not understanding that adapting AFFC and ADWD during two seasons would kill the show, I’m tired of people just hating the show year after year after year. And I think the recent uprising of show-defenders is just more people like me getting sick and tired of reading the same old complaints from the same people over and over again.

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    78. Mustafa. S.:
      To the people who don’t get why Varys is going against his former self (it was regarding his anti-dany/pro-dany sudden shift in the show).

      There’s no shift in the show whatsoever. Both book!Varys and show!Varys supported Targaryen restoration from the beginning, as evidenced by the scene with Illyrio that Arya overhears in Season 1/Book 1. The only, admittedly significant, difference is that book!Varys has a two-pronged plan with Viserys (later Dany, who was only a bargaining chip in the beginning) and YG, while YG appears to be cut in the show. But that is beside the point where Dany is concerned as she was always an important part of Varys’s plan.

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    79. lol. As someone who is a book fan first, I find it morbidly amusing that people complain that “only cat”, a minor change in dialogue, is somehow “sacrilege”. jesus. Get some perspective you wailing drama queens.

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    80. Cameryn: He did testify against Tyrion, because he had to; he was being compelled to by Cersei.But at the end of Season 2, he told Tyrion he would never forget what Tyrion did at Blackwater, even if the rest of the world did.That fact, plus the knowledge that, as Varys has said this season, Tyrion is a ‘man of talent’ who certainly could have some great impact on future events, has made Varys’ choices completely understandable.

      I think there’s more to why Varys decided to deliver such damning evidence in Tyrion’s trial. Well, as damning as any evidence in a show trial is. By getting Tyrion condemned to death and then freeing him, Varys leaves Tyrion with no choice but to do exactly what Varys wants him to do. Conveniently for Varys, Tyrion’s anger at being condemned to death by his own family probably keeps him from seeing the role that Varys played.

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    81. cosca:
      pau,

      That actually isn’t what you said at all. You should probably be more clear in your posts.

      Haha well you know what they say, “A word to the wise…” 😉

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    82. Mustafa. S.,

      I agree, Mustafa. It is probable that Brienne is taking over parts of Abel’s role in the books, and her arc all but demands that she get stuck between choosing one vow over another (“protect Sansa” and “kill Stannis” being an obvious pair). In the long run, though, Brienne has to arc back to Jaime. There is no satisfying resolution to her story that I can imagine that does not have them meeting again, and Jaime choosing Brienne over Cersei was a major element of the book character growth that is not the type of thing one drops and then claims with a straight face that one is “going to the same place” as GRRM. That phrase needs to mean a lot more than “same butt on the Iron Throne in S7E10”.

      Now that Brienne has dumped her absurdly negative attitude towards Pod, I am happy with her story. Yes, it is a deviation from the books, but it is keeping their spirit and makes sense given the constraints of the medium and all the other changes that exist within the TV-specific world.

      Changes from the books do not bother me. Sometimes they are pretty cool, in fact. It is inconsistencies, illogical behavior, and incomplete or poor story-telling (the third leech, for example) that I dislike and criticize.

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    83. Arkash:
      I have no doubts the ratings will rise up for 505 !

      Oh, by the way, slightly off topic : I hope Dominic Carter will get a Curtan Call !
      Granted Janos Slynt was not the most memorable character out there but Dominic was great in the role and present almost from the first !

      Agree

      Sometimes there’s some rather unfashionable roles on the periphery, but while the main cast often gets the majority of the Kudos it has to also be said the peripheral characters play a much more substantial roles to generating the vibe of the drama then given credit for

      Eg the guy playing Qyburn is dong fantastic, same with Pycelle etc, they are exactly what they are meant to be and their book characters brought to life,

      And of course Janos Slynt was played very well by Carter from series 1 up until now

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    84. This website is similar to Tolkien websites that I was a part of during the making of LotR’s. There were book purists and those who had never read the books <—-blasphemy!!

      The purists thought that Peter Jackson TOTALLY messed the movies up and the movie goers (as proven out by the sales) went wild for the movies.

      Truth be told, the purists will never be satisfied with a telling of a story on screen because they have already seen every move in their head. Deviation from that seems tragic to them. I have read many times LotR's and two times ASOIAF. I can separate the two – book/show and enjoy them for what they are.

      I think that D & D, as did Peter Jackson, are making a superior product, something that will prove and last through time, long after it is gone from the last season. HBO will be making money off this show for decades. It was a good bet for them, they made the right call.

      Unlike Peter Jackson, D & D have had the benefit of spending an extraordinary amount of time with GRRM. It is my firmly held belief that GRRM will NOT be able to finish barely book 6 let alone book 7 before the show does. While I have waited a very long time, I feel that maybe his time would be more productively spent working in collaboration with D & D from this point forward. He can choose to change things when the books are written, his choice. At the least he would know that "most" of what is in his head can be reproduced fairly by D & D, as they were able to do IMHO in the first four seasons. #forwhatitsworth

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    85. Chad Brick,

      Tbf the Pod thing was supposed to be insight into her frame of mind after being rejected by Arya, obviously we see the turnaround in that she has decided to follow Sansa anyway despite being rejected

      Agree, I figured she would be playing More Umber role of being conveniently outside the Winterfell walls when Theon and Sansa/Jeyne Poole jump off, maybe there will be some Abel/Mance there too?

      I do reckon she will go back down to RL in S6 to meet up with Jaimie

      Thematically the Dorne trip to rescue Myrcella might actually work well if Jaimie is there to help consolidate the rescue of Sansa in terms of choosing Brienne, eg Jaimie rescues one daughter on behalf of Cersei and then another on behalf of Cat/Brienne and probably hook her up with the Blackfish at least if not LS (which I expect in the books after they get her out of the Vale)

      Instead of the RL “no” moment, Cersei presumably won’t want him to leave KL after her WoS moment, but instead we get “no” and he chooses to leave KL and meet up with Brienne in the RL to help out with Sansa and obviously mores stuff presumably goes down with IMO Tommen to get killed in first half of next season so Myrcella can be Queen and Cersei being booted out by seasons end by another protagonist while Jaimie is in RL

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    86. I remember fondly when everyone here loved the books and wanted the show to be great, respected Martin for being the author of this shit we’re obsessed about and D&D for bringing us a wonderful adaptation.

      Anyone who disrespects Martin or the showrunners is a douche bag in my book. Anyone who attacks D&D (or the show!) to defend Martin is an imbecil and anyone who attacks Martin (or the readers!) to defend D&D is a fucking idiot. Lately we’re seeing much o the latter than of the former, but I guess it’s because whereas 5 years ago we were all book readers, now the unsullied are probably the majority.

      Can’t we just all love each other? 😛

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    87. JCDavis:
      This website is similar to Tolkien websites that I was a part of during the making of LotR’s.There were book purists and those who had never read the books <—-blasphemy!!

      The purists thought that Peter Jackson TOTALLY messed the movies up and the movie goers (as proven out by the sales) went wild for the movies.

      Truth be told, the purists will never be satisfied with a telling of a story on screen because they have already seen every move in their head.

      The Tolkien purists were particularly livid that Peter Jackson scrapped most of the second half of “The Return of the King,” specifically the ‘scouring of the Shire’ stuff. There was a lot of pushback at the time, most importantly that – dramatically speaking – following up the climax of your story with “and this happened the day after” is a really bad move… somewhat understandable in a book, completely inappropriate in a visual story. Yet a resounding number of Tolkien fans answered this very simply: “you shouldn’t have filmed these novels at all.” You can’t ever win. 🙂

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    88. pau:
      I remember fondly when everyone here loved the books and wanted the show to be great, respected Martin for being the author of this shit we’re obsessed about and D&D for bringing us a wonderful adaptation.

      Anyone who disrespects Martin or the showrunners is a douche bag in my book. Anyone who attacks D&D (or the show!) to defend Martin is an imbecil and anyone who attacks Martin (or the readers!) to defend D&D is a fucking idiot. Lately we’re seeing much o the latter than of the former, but I guess it’s because whereas 5 years ago we were all book readers, now the unsullied are probably the majority.

      Can’t we just all love each other?

      To be fair, the tone here is almost heavenly, when you compare to places like, oh, the westeros.org forum. Sometimes I think they want someone’s firstborn, over there.

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    89. Cameryn: The Tolkien purists were particularly livid that Peter Jackson scrapped most of the second half of “The Return of the King,” specifically the ‘scouring of the Shire’ stuff.There was a lot of pushback at the time, most importantly that – dramatically speaking – following up the climax of your story with “and this happened the day after” is a really bad move… somewhat understandable in a book, completely inappropriate in a visual story.Yet a resounding number of Tolkien fans answered this very simply: “you shouldn’t have filmed these novels at all.”You can’t ever win.

      I am as big a Tolkien fan as there is. I’ve read LotR 34 times and the Hobbit over a hundred times. (6th grade was really boring!). I used to hang out on places like theonering.net all the time. I can’t really remember anyone making the claims you are assigning to Tolkien “purists”. I suspect they are mostly a figment of your imagination, as are GoT “purists”.

      Was I disappointed that the scouring got cut? Sure. Was I anything remotely approximating “livid” about it? Not in a million years. It was perfectly understandable. However, the decent from a great LotR movie series to the video-game cartoonish Hobbit series…THAT was unpleasant. Better than nothing, yes, but far from great. I worry about GoT heading in the same direction. S1-4 were pretty tight to the books, S5 and presumably behind are starting to deviate wildly. Maybe D&D can keep the quality in their alternative universe, but sometimes I doubt it.

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    90. Chad Brick

      I was a TORC site user for 13 years and did some moderating there. The purists would flame a n00b right off the boards in a heartbeat. There were bans right and left because of the level “discussion” heated to. And I can tell you this, if you didn’t know every word of HoME the Sil and LotR’s, you weren’t even worthy of the purists time to reply to. I always felt pretty dang savvy on all things JRRT. I felt like an idiot when I would sneak into the “books” forum. Oi.

      I also had an account at TORN and you are right, they were much more behaved over there. And TORN had the best “movie” news as the run up to FotR’s was taking place.

      I had some major issues on some of the things PJ did in the three movies, but overall I give it an A for effort. I totally agree with you that The Hobbit movies look like a ride at Disneyland in comparison and what was it with Kili and the elf chicka? *shudder.

      But back on topic here…I still do see that there are book purists out there spreading the hate as much as those who can see the works from both sides, love.

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    91. Mr Fixit: There’s no shift in the show whatsoever. Both book!Varys and show!Varys supported Targaryen restoration from the beginning, as evidenced by the scene with Illyrio that Arya overhears in Season 1/Book 1. The only, admittedly significant, difference is that book!Varys has a two-pronged plan with Viserys (later Dany, who was only a bargaining chip in the beginning) and YG, while YG appears to be cut in the show. But that is beside the point where Dany is concerned as she was always an important part of Varys’s plan.

      I’m still surprised how people have never realised that Varys was using Dany & Viserys as a distraction from the very start. Let’s not forget Varys wasn’t focused on Dany from the start, it was Viserys, who is the exact opposite of someone he wanted to sit on the Throne (he wasn’t just, he was selfish, nor was he even loved by millions). Varys already had his future leader (Aegon), but he wanted to remain in KL and remain useful and relevant (so that he can control things and prepare for his arrival later). What better way to remain relevant and useful than to not only distract everyone away from your REAL contender for the Iron Throne (Aegon), but be the only source of information bringing in details regarding the “last” surviving Targeryen (that’s why he initially wanted her/veserys alive). The master of whispers is useless without whispers. Her importance and her rise towards leadership isn’t something he intended or even helped her achieve, but in the books he began to realise her importance later on, he probably wants her as a wife/aly for Aegon (and he also knows the value of her dragons).

      So to say he was supporting only DANY from the start is ridiculous (which is what the show is implementing), especially since he worked against her long-term goals several times (or tried his best to delay her arrival too (using Jorah).

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    92. Chad Brick: I am as big a Tolkien fan as there is. I’ve read LotR 34 times and the Hobbit over a hundred times. (6th grade was really boring!). I used to hang out on places like theonering.net all the time. I can’t really remember anyone making the claims you are assigning to Tolkien “purists”. I suspect they are mostly a figment of your imagination, as are GoT “purists”.

      In addition to JCDavis’s comment… You obviously have had no contact with any of the Tolkien societies that exist across the globe. They were relentless in their criticism of Jackson’s changes to their beloved works. They even made it into the national news press with their disdain for the changes made to Return of the King. This was really a thing, and theonering did report on it, even if their tone was lighter.

      (PS there’s no need to be condescending, as of all of this is in my head. Read asoiaf.westeros.org for a few hours and then tell me there’s no such thing as a book purist there.)

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    93. amplifyme,

      Not long ago I could count WOTW as one of the few places that felt welcoming to me and where I could come to read posts that would make me laugh and think and allow me to chill with like-minded (or not) folks. Now it’s just stressing me the fuck out.

      No one needs to tell me if I don’t like what’s going on, I can leave. I’m well aware of that, but I’m also hopeful I don’t reach the point where that’s the choice I have to make. I simply felt the need to share my opinion on behalf of other long-time lurkers who may be feeling as out of sorts as I have lately. I have huge respect for the mods around here, most of whom I’ve followed since long before many of the posters on WOTW discovered the awesomeness of these folks behind the curtain and what they’ve given us here. But a website like this is ultimately a reflection of the people who participate in it. I’d just like to see a more balanced, fair-minded (and dare I say, polite) representation of all opinions. And with that I bid you all a good night and resume my lurker status.

      Well said; stick around, we reasonable-like readers/watchers need to stick together. Maybe we can gang in strength and bring back some civility to the conversation.

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    94. JCDavis

      But back on topic here…I still do see that there are book purists out there spreading the hate as much as those who can see the works from both sides, love.

      I am sure you can find some of the people of whom you speak on other sites, but their number is negligible and they are stupid. I cannot recall seeing any of them here. What I do see here (on this very thread, no less) are personal insults against people who rationally criticize specific choices the directors have made. These folks are just as bad as the purists.

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    95. Chad Brick: I suspect they are mostly a figment of your imagination, as are GoT “purists”.

      Those Got purist are not a figment of anyone’s imagination, they live in Westeros.org and had made almost impossible for anyone who likes the show to go there.

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    96. Daniela: Those Got purist are not a figment of anyone’s imagination, they live in Westeros.org and had made almost impossible for anyone who likes the show to go there.

      But not around here…we just have a couple of guys who you can spot from miles on.

      Also this handful of book purists vent their frustration with D&D, whereas the show jihadists attack fellow commenters with valid concerns and Martin, who really has nothing to do with the show yet is constantly berated in this forums

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    97. pau,

      I wasn’t talking about this site, truth is this place is usually really nice. I found it just a few days ago and I’m impressed by how many people are able to discuss the show and the books (and what they like and dislike about them) in a polite manner. Is quite refreshing.

      I just disagree with the idea that book purist don’t exist in the GOT fandom, I’ve been in Westeros.org and the attitute towards the show there is toxic, every change is terrible, they call the show fanfiction, they go after everyone who openly enjoys the show with post after post of why the show is terrible and why true fans hate the show…

      But I do agree with you pau, this site is probably one of the best places to discuss the show. Hope it remains that way.

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    98. Daniela: they call the show fanfiction

      A growing portion of it is. Do you deny this?

      I’ve been in Westeros.org and the attitute towards the show there is toxic, every change is terrible

      I just went over to westeros.org, picked the top thread in the TV show section, and read the entire 11 pages worth of comments. There was not ONE post that could be described as toxic, and only a handful that could even be described as negative (such as concerns about upcoming scenes coming off as cheesy).

      I think you are entirely exaggerating the number and toxicity of “purists”. Their number is not zero, but it is laughably close.

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    99. Chad Brick,

      Of course the show is not fanfiction, is an adaptation, is not the same. Fan-fiction requires no permission from the author, D&D had to buy the rights from GRRM to make the series happen, GOT creates revenue (a lot) that benefits both the HBO and GRRM, fan-fiction can’t generate any kind of profit or else the author can be sued for copyright infringement. So no, the show is not fan-fiction.

      If you use fan-fiction as a work based on a existing story not made by the original author, you may consider GOT fan-fiction, but then The World of Ice and Fire book is fanfiction, because it was not written by GRRM, it was written by two of his fans. And yet you never see anyone use the term fan-fic to talk about that book, why? because GRRM gave his permission and revised it. The same way he talks with D&D about where the show is going and gives his input on the general plotlines for each character every season, and until season four, he wrote an episode every year.

      GOT is not fan-fiction, is an adaptation of a book series that needs to make changes because books and tv are different mediums and what works in one not always works on the other. GRRM sold the adaptation rights to the HBO, and that means that is an oficial product approved by GRRM, even if some of his fans hate that idea.

      Regarding Westeros, to each his own, maybe you like it more because you agree with what people there think, for someone who enjoys both the show and the books, that place is pure vitriol, full of people who wath GOT just for the sake of hating on it and never consider the reasons behind the changes.

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    100. Daniela:
      pau,

      I wasn’t talking about this site, truth is this place is usually really nice. I found it just a few days ago and I’m impressed by how many people are able to discuss the show and the books (and what they like and dislike about them) in a polite manner. Is quite refreshing.

      I just disagree with the idea that book purist don’t exist in the GOT fandom, I’ve been in Westeros.org and the attitute towards the show there is toxic, every change is terrible, they call the show fanfiction, they go after everyone who openly enjoys the show with post after post of why the show is terrible and why true fans hate the show…

      But I do agree with you pau, this site is probably one of the best places to discuss the show. Hope it remains that way.

      Welcome to the site, then! 😉

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    101. Chad Brick,

      That’s interesting. I went over there yesterday, was in the same section, and the top thread had a title with something about “Ranting and Raving.” I read about 5 or 6 pages of it. It was exactly what the title said…ranting and raving over anything and everything. Mind you, I’d gone over because I was in the mood to read some meltdowns over tiny things, as I find it somewhat amusing to a point. That thread certainly delivered.

      To be fair, though, there are some people over there with a lot of information and some good insight. I just don’t frequent there because I found sifting through what I view as extreme negativity something I wasn’t willing to do.

      To touch on what some have said about LoTR, I think those films are the reason I am able to take changes with this story as in stride as I do. LoTR was…I don’t even know how to describe what those books meant to me throughout my life. Beginning as a teenager, and for many years, delving into those books (and accompanying material) became my escape and my solace. When it was announced films were being made of them, I was both ecstatic and nervous. What I learned from those films is even though there were things which were omitted/changed/what have you, and I had problems with them, what we got (especially in the extended editions) was brilliant, imo. I still love those films. They will never be the books, but they are amazing in their own right. That taught me to be much more open-minded about page-to-screen adaptations.

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    102. That’s funny. I just went over to westeros again, picked a topic that would be sure to bring out the worst in people (changes to the Loras plot / character) and outside of a couple homophobic posts that were slammed by others, saw nothing but reasonable discussion of the show, its differences with the book, and various in-westeros and real world relations and implications of such. There was little that could even be called “vitriol” no matter how much you stretched the definition. There is far more “anti-purist” vitriol on this very thread than vitriol I could find there.

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