Game of Thrones returns to Winterfell for this week’s filming

Moneyglass

Photo: @SGuckin/Twitter

Busy days have come to Moneyglass, Northern Ireland once again, as the Winterfell set in the village has sprung to life. Trucks and trailers have filled up the lots around the set, and it appears production is well under way.

We broke the news exclusively on Monday of an exciting scene being rehearsed and then shot sometime this week involving Winterfell and a few leading cast members. (Visit our earlier post for complete details and seriously huge spoilers!)

Actor spoilers beyond this point:

Reportedly part of the big scene, according to our sources, is Sophie Turner.

Not long after a WotW reader mentioned spotting her at London’s Heathrow Airport on Monday, the actress shared a photo of her reunited with co-star Maisie Williams:

Bae caught me fishin’ ?

A photo posted by Sophie Turner (@sophiet) on

There’s no word yet whether Aidan Gillen, Iwan Rheon or Kit Harington have arrived in Belfast to join Turner at the location. As of Monday, Harington was still in London, but it’s only a short flight to Belfast.

207 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. “Harington was still in London, but it’s only a short flight to Belfast.”

      After what went down at Hardhome, I can understand why he’d want to avoid taking the Stena Line ferry.

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    2. “After the long summer, darkness will fall heavy on the world. The stars will bleed. The cold breath of winter will freeze the seas… and the dead shall rise in the North. ”

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    3. Maisie’s still working too, it seems. Back at the Emmy ceremony she talked about scheduling changes that would lead to her finishing early, which led to a lot of speculation about how much time she had left to work; given that it’s now past the midpoint of November, clearly she’s only going to get a few extra weeks, at most.

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    4. Ser Gerold Dayne:
      “After the long summer, darkness will fall heavy on the world. The stars will bleed. The cold breath of winter will freeze the seas… and the dead shall rise in the North. ”

      Gee, is the Stena Line ferry really as bad as that?

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    5. Not so off-topic, because I know I’m not the only one who loves Bronn: you can see Jerome Flynn in a main role in Ripper Street, a British series about the police struggle in Whitechapel just after the time Jack the Ripper was roaming that ill-famed London area. Clive Russell (the Blackfish) and Joseph Mawle (Benjen) appear in recurrent roles. Smaller parts are played by Michael McElhatton and Ian McElhinney. In one episode roles we recognize Iain Glenn, Kristian Nairn, Dean Charles Chapman, Paul Kaye. Seriously, it’s like playing Let’s see how many GOT actors you can recognize. It’s a good show, all drama and atmosphere and just a GOT fan needs while missing those wonderful actors.

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    6. Shy Lady Dragon:
      Not so off-topic, because I know I’m not the only one who loves Bronn: you can see Jerome Flynn in a main role in Ripper Street, a British series about the police struggle in Whitechapel just after the time Jack the Ripper was roaming that ill-famed London area. Clive Russell (the Blackfish) and Joseph Mawle (Benjen) appear in recurrent roles. Smaller parts are played by Michael McElhatton and Ian McElhinney. In one episode roles we recognize Iain Glenn, Kristian Nairn, Dean Charles Chapman, Paul Kaye. Seriously, it’s like playing Let’s see how many GOT actors you can recognize. It’s a good show, all drama and atmosphere and just a GOT fan needs while missing those wonderful actors.

      Second the Ripper Street recommendation – it has a host of GOT actors, is very well written and superbly acted. The latest season on Amazon was freaking fantastic, and I’m thrilled it’s going to continue.

      Word to the wise, though: watch with subtitles (for the Victorian language and references – heavy going in some parts) and Google near at hand. LOL I’m still worried about someone putting me on a watch list because of my Google searches for this show (arcane medical terms for gory scenes, terms for making explosives from the 19th century, etc).

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    7. Eh, I don’t really know what to make of that scene. Just doesn’t make too much sense based on what we already know about next season. Jon, Sansa, and Ramsay just hangin out in Winterfell after the battle, then for whatever reason a giant is trying to knock down the gate, and they fight him off? Also, I guess I just don’t like the implication that Ramsay could make it out of the big battle and still hold some usefulness that would put him anywhere but a swift execution or torture + execution. Obviously there’s a whole lot of context missing that might make that less nonsensical and more exciting for me.

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    8. Shy Lady Dragon:
      Ripper Street, a British series about the police struggle in Whitechapel just after the time Jack the Ripper was roaming that ill-famed London area.

      Do you know anyplace that streams this? My ability to catch it on BBC America has been the pits this year! 😉

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    9. SnowBowl,

      Having thought about this for a couple of days, and I’m sure I’m not the only one who has had this idea, I can see Ramsay, after losing at SnowBowl/BastardBowl, slinking away from the battle and high-tailing it back to Winterfell. In his mind, the Boltons legitimately hold Winterfell and either Roose, or Ramsay, if Roose isn’t still alive, is the Warden of the North as appointed by the crown. We don’t know if Ramsay has any knowledge of what’s transpired in King’s Landing, nor whether he knows (and I mean leading up to this scene, whatever it is), the Crown gave LF permission to go north with the Vale troops to depose the Boltons.

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    10. SnowBowl:
      Eh, I don’t really know what to make of that scene. Just doesn’t make too much sense based on what we already know about next season. Jon, Sansa, and Ramsay just hangin out in Winterfell after the battle, then for whatever reason a giant is trying to knock down the gate, and they fight him off? Also, I guess I just don’t like the implication that Ramsay could make it out of the big battle and still hold some usefulness that would put him anywhere but a swift execution or torture + execution. Obviously there’s a whole lot of context missing that might make that less nonsensical and more exciting for me.

      The scene is probably a negotiation (and maybe Ramsay gets killed by the Giant, it would be fun).

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    11. SnowBowl,

      Sue made a point of saying she chose “interact” over “talk” when reporting the initial spoiler. Executions aren’t the most conversational interactions. Just sayin’.

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    12. Are we discussing this?

      [snip the junk link]

      Can anyone verify anything?

      Is it total crap and I should just ignore it?

      I rely on y’all to set me straight on what is valid rumor v what is junk.

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    13. HotPinkLipstick,

      I choose not to believe anything of the sort, even though I would hope it was – and given certain circumstances, I could see it being true.

      I could also see it being total hogwash because GRRM…

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    14. HotPinkLipstick,

      I wouldn’t go far as to say it’s bullshit with 100% certainty, but I will say whenever I see something along the lines of, “a poster on reddit said,” I assume it’s bullshit until/unless there is some sort of concrete evidence which comes along later to confirm it.

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    15. In the books, the enmity between the northern bastards stems mainly from the ‘pink letter’ which Ramsay sends on foot of Jon trying to rescue ‘Arya.’

      In the show, if Ramsay has done in Red Wedding Roose then I see no reason why the two northern bastards could not bury their differences and unite to fight the threat from beyond the Wall together.

      NORTHERN BASTARDS UNITE AND FIGHT!

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    16. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      HotPinkLipstick,

      I wouldn’t go far as to say it’s bullshit with 100% certainty, but I will say whenever I see something along the lines of, “a poster on reddit said,” I assume it’s bullshit until/unless there is some sort of concrete evidence which comes along later to confirm it.

      Reddit, I know I know, I’m just needy and greedy. Of course, there is the possibility that Winds, except for the released chapters, is the full story and history of the Greyjoys and Sam’s Citadel adventures, with a splash of Drogon POV. (Flew over a city today, (insert 2K words describing city) decided to burn it.)

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    17. thremnir: In the show, if Ramsay has done in Red Wedding Roose then I see no reason why the two northern bastards could not bury their differences and unite to fight the threat from beyond the Wall together.

      So, you don’t think Jon might have a problem with how Ramsey has treated his sister (not to mention burning down Winterfell and killing the small folk.)

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    18. HotPinkLipstick,

      One thing that I know for certain is that on GRRM’s Not A Blog he has said repeatedly that when he gets the book off to publishing, he will make the announcement on his blog and not to believe anything else.

      Take that for what it is. But I tend to believe him.

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    19. HotPinkLipstick,

      That’s also an incredibly vague statement. Turned into his editor Anne Groel? Turned into his publishers? That and “first draft” has a pretty loose definition. For some writer/editor combos that could mean it’s all but done and just needs a copy edit, and for others it could mean the earliest complete rough draft, with lots of structural change still necessary. While there’s a Groel Q&A out there that says GRRM is pretty inflexible with the story (meaning a somewhat less involved editing process), it just goes to reason that with such long and complex books the final draft could be many iterations apart from the first draft.

      Still…encouraging! No matter the finality, it’s hard to imagine a complete TWoW draft not taking priority once it hits the editing/publishing stage.

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    20. HotPinkLipstick,

      Your imagined Drogon pov made me chuckle…thanks…and I’m right there with you on the “needy and greedy.” I just tend to be a skeptic when it comes to things like that. Were it not for this site proving to be so very reputable in what they report (both here and when the writers here were still on the old site), I’d be dubious about much of what I’ve read here. It’s why I don’t really read anywhere else, and don’t believe what I hear from elsewhere unless it’s been confimred here. Perhaps that’s a bit rigid of me, but I’d rather be skeptical and find out later I was wrong, than believe something, then find out later it was wrong.

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    21. HotPinkLipstick: Can anyone verify anything?

      Is it total crap and I should just ignore it?

      No one but GRRM can verify it (and sadly that’s not happening,)

      Whether you should ignore it or not is another matter. I’m having fun on the hype-train, but I’m not going to be crushed when I wake up tomorrow and find it was all a dream.

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    22. Martin has said many times, that when TWOW is done, he will announce it himself.
      No games/tricks.

      Anyway looking at Martins scheldule lately, I really, doubt he is anywhere near finishing it…

      But then, I’m a eternal pessimist when the books realese is concerned.
      I still remenber:”ADWD coming next year”. That was in 2005.

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    23. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      HotPinkLipstick,

      Your imagined Drogon pov made me chuckle…thanks…and I’m right there with you on the “needy and greedy.”I just tend to be a skeptic when it comes to things like that.Were it not for this site proving to be so very reputable in what they report (both here and when the writers here were still on the old site), I’d be dubious about much of what I’ve read here.It’s why I don’t really read anywhere else, and don’t believe what I hear from elsewhere unless it’s been confimred here.Perhaps that’s a bit rigid of me, but I’d rather be skeptical and find out later I was wrong, than believe something, then find out later it was wrong.

      Yeah, this place is generally rock solid on the reliability of spoilers. I do read other places because uh…you know, some topics bore me. And I blatantly try to change the subject, but it’s like fighting a tsunami.

      My biggest fear about Winds is not that it won’t come out. I can live with that. My biggest fear is that will come out and be total shit. There are certain characters in which I have invested and I want to know what happens to them. The Jaime/Brienne cliffhanger is killing me. If Winds comes out and doesn’t resolve that, I will shake my fist mightily towards wherever GRRM is currently located.

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    24. HotPinkLipstick,

      🙂 ….(is that thunder in the distance, or…)

      ——-

      Regarding the shot of M & S above, I’m not a fan of nostril shots, but…I repeat…I am not a fan of nostril shots. Just no…

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    25. HotPinkLipstick,

      I know what you mean. Part of my problem with my initial readings of AFFC was some of the characters in which I was so invested didn’t appear, and when they finally did in ADWD (I’m thinking specifically of Dany), it wasn’t at all satisfying (just my personal view). I would like to think a lesson was learned with that, and if TWOW is just too damn big to all fit in one book, it will not be divided like the last AFFC and ADWD were. I enjoyed AFFC much more on reread, because I already knew what happened to the other characters, so was not just trying to get through a bunch of stuff I didn’t care much about to get to the stuff I did care about. Rereading, however, did not mitigate, however, my disappointment with what was done (or not done) with Dany.

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    26. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      So…not much into the diarrhea parts? 🙂

      Sue, I have a friend in publishing who tells me there are no big fantasy releases set for February, 2016 at this time, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything either. *sigh* I was just hoping someone had something.

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    27. HotPinkLipstick:
      Are we discussing this?

      Can anyone verify anything?

      Is it total crap and I should just ignore it?

      I rely on y’all to set me straight on what is valid rumor v what is junk.

      A major problem with this rumor is that, from what we’ve been told by his editor, GRRM doesn’t turn in a “first draft.” It’s not how he works (at least any more). He turns in a final draft. Then they debate edits.

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    28. HotPinkLipstick: Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      So…not much into the diarrhea parts?

      I’m not the one you asked, but for my part, the scenes of Dany sick, strung-out and hallucinating were considerably more interesting than chapter after chapter of Dany sitting on her throne thinking, “Hm, what shall I do today? Shall I marry this guy or that guy?”

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    29. Abort the scene.. I think it could play out something like this;

      First up, #snowbowl and a big battle including Starks, Umbers(with Rickon?) , Karstarks, Boltons, wildlings, etc. Ramsey meets them in open field (not what Roose would do but on the other hand – Ramsey will probably kill him and Fat Walda, and then burn them before the battle..). Ramsey is losing but retreats back to Winterfell which is now under siege.
      The Vale with LF (and Sansa?) joins Jon & Co and together Jon and LF (but why Sansa?) meet with Ramsey to make a deal.
      LF is a backstabber so he’ll probably betray Jon and Wun Wun saves the day.

      Not really, but maybe 😉

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    30. Gayle,

      I’m trying to remember, though – does Jon think that Ramsay burned down Winterfell? I thought that everyone on the show still thinks it was Theon. We haven’t had a Manderly moment or a Wex reveal or anything like that. On the show, if I’m remembering correctly, everyone still thinks that Theon wrecked Winterfell before the Boltons captured him and took over.

      On the other hand, everyone does know that Roose Bolton was at the Red Wedding. So, if Roose is dead (perhaps at the hands of Ramsay), maybe Show Ramsay is pretending to be a good boy? Still doesn’t make much sense if they’ve just had a giant battle, but if it’s BEFORE the battle….

      Still, the key word I think is “interacting”. Hopefully that interacting hurts Ramsay more than it hurts anyone else. Not sure about the giant, though. If not for the giant part, it would seem obviously to be Ramsay’s execution. I’m leaning towards Ramsay’s intended execution, then UnWunWun attacks (wight), allowing Ramsay to escape amidst the confusion and fight again in Season 7. When he will be reunited with Theon…..

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    31. HotPinkLipstick: So…not much into the diarrhea parts? 🙂

      I would have been perfectly fine with Dany only shitting all over a small portion of the Dothraki Sea, instead of, like, half of it. Yeah, I know that’s an exaggeration, but it’s how it seemed to me. To touch on Firannion’s comment, I may have had more patience for it if we hadn’t already gotten “chapter after chapter of Dany sitting on her throne thinking, “Hm, what shall I do today? Shall I marry this guy or that guy?””

      However, I’m the forgiving type, so if Dany finally does make it out of Meereen in the next book, much of her ADWD will be forgiven.

      And since I don’t think I’ve said this, the first time I see any Starks back together, I’ll probably get tears in my eyes.

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    32. Just a thought….

      Could Bran be controlling the giant by warging?? Perhaps bursting in to help or warn Jon/Sansa??

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    33. Just wanted to chime in to agree with the comments upthread about the fantastic reliability of this site. I haven’t posted much but I’ve been checking in every few days for updates since the end of the last season, and I think I’m officially an addict now. I really appreciate the work done to satisfy the rabid curiosity of the fans. This place is like the New Yorker of the GoT fandom, at least in terms of the fact-checking and the generally high tenor of the content. And I enjoy the discussion in the comments too. Thanks, everyone, for many good excuses to distract myself over the past few months.

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    34. Firannion: I’m not the one you asked, but for my part, the scenes of Dany sick, strung-out and hallucinating were considerably more interesting than chapter after chapter of Dany sitting on her throne thinking, “Hm, what shall I do today? Shall I marry this guy or that guy?”

      “If I look back I am lost.” Yeah, Dany didn’t impress me in ADWD. A lot of characters didn’t. A person here said that they had a greater appreciation of AFFC on a second read. I think that was only because you lowered your expectations. You shouldn’t have to do that to appreciate a book. The book should be better.

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    35. The way I can see the scene they described happening is..
      Ramsay gets hold of Sansa again. Jon goes to winterfell to deal with Ramsay so he would return Sansa to him. Ramsay is being ahole so Jon shows his strength by having Wun wun enter winterfell.
      That may make Ramsay piss his pants..

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    36. Chinoiserie: The scene is probably a negotiation (and maybe Ramsay gets killed by the Giant, it would be fun).

      I would bet that it’s after negotiations and that they have brought the captured Ramsay back to Winterfell to await the King’s Justice. The giant(s) might be upset because they don’t want to wait for some silly trial: they want Ramsay held accountable now for actions during Snowbowl. And by “accountable,” I mean pulled apart like a poorly constructed rag doll in the hands of the psycho kid from Toy Story.

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    37. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      AFFC/ADWD are riddled with problems: slow pacing, too much worldbuilding, the… exhuberant descriptions of Dany diarrhea… But I could forgive everything if only the books had a proper climax. Leaving out the books the the battles of Ice and Fire was a huge mistake, IMHO. It makes the books look unfinished, frustrating, with little to no pay off.

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    38. Davos’ Luck:
      Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      AFFC/ADWD are riddled with problems: slow pacing, too much worldbuilding, the… exhuberant descriptions of Dany diarrhea… But I could forgive everything if only the books had a proper climax. Leaving out the books the the battles of Ice and Fire was a huge mistake, IMHO. It makes the books look unfinished, frustrating, with little to no pay off.

      So…like a ruined orgasm?

      Glorybe, I’m on my third Blue Moon.

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    39. Davos’ Luck,

      I get ya, I do. I struggled through AFFC on first read. A girl I worked with at the time had just finished it and we commiserated together 🙂
      However, yes, upon re-read I really liked it. Then I got the books on audible to listen to them and found them even better and picked up on a lot I missed in reading (twice). Then I found this a few years ago and that also helped http://boiledleather.com/post/24543217702/a-proposed-a-feast-for-crowsa-dance-with-dragons

      The problem with the two books is they were supposed to be one and when broken up, well, that left AFFC without the typical climaxes and cliffhangers as it “ends” several chapters before ADWD does.

      Now that I think about it, we need to have Roy Dotrice cameo as a northern lord. I swear, that man could read a shampoo bottle and I would be enthralled.

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    40. Aryamad,

      Oh my gawd. I just watched it on YouTube because I could not remember that episode that well.
      I love it. I love him and the way he says “flesh” and how he explains the “flingin”. Aah, it’s the small things.
      Thank you 😉

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    41. I like the fact that one of best chapters in ADwD is just remembered for diarrhea ..

      Good work GRRm..if it was another character people would have swooning over what a great chapter it was

      Those who say that AFFC is much more enjoyable on the reread …I agree ..

      But rereading ADWd also improves the book lot …reread all chapters not leaving the ones you didn’t like in the first read …

      ADWd is still the better book than AFFC …AFfc only saviour is cersei …

      And also agree with that leaving out the battles was a mistake

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    42. Nah, I loved the Jaime and Brienne chapters of AFfC. Not a popular opinion, but I really felt those characters in a way I didn’t feel so many others.

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    43. HotPinkLipstick,

      Well I liked them too and yes its not a popular opinion especially in brienne case .

      For me its like this Jamie’s and brienne’s are similar to Jon and dany in ADWD..

      And cersei is like theon and davos in ADWD ..

      But cersei is enjoyed by everyone even those who don’t like her ..they like reading about how stupid she is …that’s some good writing there by martin

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    44. dragonbringer,

      I,GOD willing,will not re read AFFC,ever…I could barely get through it once…I practically swooshed through the pages; sometimes,even not know what people are talking about concerning that part of the story 🙁

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    45. Alex G,

      Which we will come to know in our re reads ..

      My favorite is dany and I don’t know what was happening and can’t remember all the names in her arc in ADWD at my first read …but after the second read I understood some parts of it …it tool me couple of re reads to know fully ..

      When we read book for a first time …we concentrate only on the plot development how the story is moving . and these two books doesn’t have that at all ..
      So we skim through the books fast and know that nothing happens in the last two books…

      But once we reread it we seem to focus lot on what we didnt notice in our first read and since we already know what’s going to happen it also helps …which will make it lot more interesting

      This is not my opinion alone …you can see the readers who come to enjoy both AFfc and ADWd lot more in their rereads..

      Both are poorly structured but good written..

      Also I like to read the chapters of pov’s of particular character separately….first dany alone from AGOt and AdWD and then Jon and tyrion and arya like it goes …which also helps to under stand what’s happening in their arcs more ..

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    46. Judibatt,

      Any time! 😀 I feel the same way about him. Loved listening to the audio books!! Although I could not take his versions of Arya and Daenerys very seriously. To me he does not convey… “young girl” very well in his voice. I thought he just ended up sounding a bit like a leprechaun. lol

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    47. sue….getting off topic for a sec…i’m new here and love the site and the story we are here for….solley!! i decided to post a comment that was in my mind and then have a little harmless fun….As u can see when reading posts here there is always humour and wild theories….if ppl want to get upset with my gags and attempt at humour (which is mine) then i dont see why i cant respond to them in kind…i have not nor will i comment meanly on someone elses comment cause its all speculation and questions as no one really has a clue whats going to be seen on screen next year and whats left on the cutting room floor. Just so u know…if anyone feels they need to comment in a negative way to my comments without having a clue what i’m typing about or in what mood…then i only think its fair i comment back to these ppl in the same way tthe commented on me….only better…:)
      i just hope a logical mind will see it for what it is and not reprimand the wrong person
      having said that…love the site…love the show…keep up the good work.

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    48. If you read AFfC and ADwD together in Boiled Leather’s chapter order and stick to the chapters involving The Wall, Cersei, Davos and Reek, you get a very cohesive and not at all bad book – although it still needs an edit.

      ETA: And an ending …

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    49. I have a thought, what happened to the other giant, Mag the Mighty, who Grenn and his boys killed in the tunnel in season 4. John told them to burn the bodies, however, I wonder if they got around to him?

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    50. HotPinkLipstick: So…like a ruined orgasm?

      What’s an orgasm? *sarcasm*

      HotPinkLipstick:
      Nah, I loved the Jaime and Brienne chapters of AFfC. Not a popular opinion, but I really felt those characters in a way I didn’t feel so many others.

      I really liked the chapters where Jaime was in Dorne..

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    51. Sergei Walankov:

      That’s just it, isn’t it? Cut their length by half, consolidate the number of POV characters, and include the proper climaxes that are now going to appear at the beginning of TWoW, and you have a pretty good book.

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    52. Wimsey: And by “accountable,” I mean pulled apart like a poorly constructed rag doll in the hands of the psycho kid from Toy Story.

      We can only hope.

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    53. I actually think you may be close to the mark here! Kinda makes sense. Someone else mentioned Bran warging Wun-Wun too (otherwise how will he know Jon is in trouble?) so perhaps this scene will be a combo of these possibilities.

      Mack:
      Abort the scene..I think it could play out something like this;

      First up,#snowbowl and a big battle including Starks, Umbers(with Rickon?) , Karstarks, Boltons, wildlings, etc.Ramsey meets them in open field (not what Roose would do but on the other hand – Ramsey will probably kill him and Fat Walda,and then burn them before the battle..). Ramsey is losing but retreats back to Winterfell which is now under siege.
      The Vale with LF (and Sansa?)joins Jon & Co and together Jon and LF (but why Sansa?) meet with Ramsey to make a deal.
      LF is a backstabber so he’ll probably betray Jon and Wun Wun saves the day.

      Not really,but maybe ?

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    54. Apollo,

      The fact that we know there’s going to be a big battle points to Roose death before this happens. We know, and Roose mentioned it in s. 5, that Winterfell is one of the strongest castles in Westeros and it would be stupid to meet your enemy in open field (as long as you don’t take Ramsey’s 20 good men and destroy an army before the battle begins of course…) if you can stay inside the walls and let your enemy freeze and starve to death outside.

      I also think that it’s more likely that the Vale forces joins Jon in a siege after the battle than to just aid them in the battle for a several reasons.

      On the other hand, we haven’t got any info that there’s going to be a siege at Winterfell at all..

      The Wun Wun/Bran-warging possibility is interesting. I’m not sure how they will make that possible on screen though since Bran is not present in that storyline.

      Hmm..

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    55. I think Jon is the prisoner (or possibly both Snow’s) and Sansa / Lightfinger are the captors. There is nothing to suggest that Sansa will be on the same side as her illegitimate brother. I think the armies of the vale swop in towards the end of the battle and capture both leaders.

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    56. SnowBowl,

      Did you ever think that Sansa escapes to the vale and brings army, Jon gathers the wildlings and a giant, rickon (or Jon) gathers the northern lords and march on winterfell. Maybe it’s Ramsay on the inside and the stark children on the outside trying to get in.

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    57. Summers child:
      I think Jon is the prisoner (or possibly both Snow’s) and Sansa / Lightfinger are the captors. There is nothing to suggest that Sansa will be on the same side as her illegitimate brother. I think the armies of the vale swop in towards the end of the battle and capture both leaders.

      Not so bad… But in s. 5 when Ramsey tells Sansa about the new LC at the Wall, she doesn’t seem to hold any grudges against Jon, on the contrary, Sansa really seem to care about what’s up with him. We’re obviously talking about the show here

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    58. Ratj620,

      Sansa doesn’t need to make it to the Vale, The Vale is coming up to Winterfell. She just needs to escape and rally some Stark loyalists. There is nothing in her story arc to suggest she will side with Jon and an army of wildlings. Her story has been about how her childhood dreams for prestige and of becoming Joffrey’s Queen have lead to her families demise. On numerous occasions she has betrayed to protect that dream (Ayra and Micah, telling Cersei that the Starks were about to leave Kings Landing). Each time it happened it further severed a link to her family (Lady, then Ned and Arya).

      She has been under the “protection” of Littlefinger and he has taught her the potential power her “name” gives her. She will not yield that power to anyone now (particularly a illegitimate brother – she would see that as an insult to her family honour), she will slowly become cold and calculating and morph into a Cersei character. The symbolism is clear, she has no direwolf, her own selfish ambition to be become queen lead to Lady’s beheading, she is no longer a “Stark” IMO

      I don’t think those two Starks will be on the same side for a while.

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    59. Mack,

      More the books really. She may have affection for Jon, that doesn’t mean she will side with his Wildling army. She will still see him as an illegitimate brother, if other options are open to her (Stark loyalists for example) she will utilise those. Makes no sense to travel all the way to wall (she’s not stupid, its the first place Ramsey will look for her and Theon will probably figure that out as well) if a closer safe haven can be found.

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    60. Vegodread:
      I have a thought, what happened to the other giant, Mag the Mighty, who Grenn and his boys killed in the tunnel in season 4. John told them to burn the bodies, however, I wonder if they got around to him?

      That’s a great thought! It’d be pretty hard to drag a giant to a funeral pyre. Maybe Wunwun escapes wight-dom after all?

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    61. Tywin of the Hill:
      Remember one thing:

      Ramsay may not know much about Jon, but if he is clever he may decode the Stark “looks”. Plus, it is fairly open knowledge that Jon is the new LC of the Watch and if a bunch of black brothers come hootin’ and hollarin’ following a Starkyish-in-the-face leader, he may connect the plot dots. Ramsay may be lots of things, but stupid is not one.

      Petyr most likely knows a lot more about Jon… somehow??? Also add in the above info. Remember, he somehow knows about the secret promise and R+L=J theory as he was telling Sansa down in the crypts.

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    62. Summers child,

      Never said I thought Sansa would go to the wall. But I think LF is smart enough not to take Ramsay’s side against the rest of the north. Not in the first place anyway. Especially if he arrive late to the battle.

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    63. Summers child,

      Not expecting that this is right, exactly, but it’s at least as valid an expectation as the uber-agency Sansa savior. Sansa’s story seems to me on the edge of a knife, not firmly pointing in one direction as so many seem to think.

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    64. Summers child,

      There is no trace of that sort of ambition in the character, on the book or show (past AGOT season 1, anyway, and even in that case she wasn’t interested in political power, she wanted the romantic ideal that she’s been raised to see as the highest thing she could/should want). Sansa in the books resents her “claim” because of all the trouble it has brought her; in the show, the only person who has ever brought it up is Littlefinger in episode 504, which she was taken aback by, and it didn’t really go any beyond that. Conversely, both the books and show emphasize her desire to reunite with family (the show did that two episodes in a row later that same season).

      And in any event, in the show at least, Jon doesn’t have any claim to Winterfell, nor any reason to assert such a claim. It’s entirely against his character.

      In turn, it’s not in character for either to try to usurp Rickon, the rightful heir unless Bran returns.

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    65. I agree that it’s really possible that Jon will be Sansa and Littlefinger’s captive, and that the giant will burst in to defend him. However, I think there is a pretty simple explanation for that – won’t Jon, technically, be a Wall deserter as far as Sansa and the North is concerned? There can be political pressure on Sansa to show that she’s impartial, or beholden to tradition, or something, and so to execute Jon. Especially if Rickon shows up.

      e: A deserter who brought the wildings through, at that.

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    66. Summers child,

      Geez. I couldn’t even see this scenario. None of it makes sense to me. I would think Sansa is hungry for family, she is pretty much alone up there in the North….with Theon her only friend (the guy who took Winterfell from her family). To me it is a question as to how she views Littlefinger at this point. She may see him as her only friend…but she may not. There is much to be revealed for season 6. But I do not see that she would throw off her family if she had the chance to be with any of them. Including Jon.

      She would have to feel bitter about the way Ramsay treated her and by default, that bitterness could fall on Littlefinger. Guilty or not, he talked her into going to Winterfell to marry Ramsay, initially she refused to go.

      Now, maybe it is just the way of GRRM and D&D to build up a Stark reunion of some sort, only to let everyone down and come SO close, but it doesn’t happen. If anything I think Sansa has learned that what she wanted at KL is the farthest thing from what she would want now……if she even knows what she wants now. Other than to escape from Ramsay. (again, we are talking show only here)

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    67. Yaga,

      No. Where are these ideas coming from that Sansa all of a sudden will grow a pair and be all KL righteous about Jon Snow? She doesn’t really know the NW…doesn’t know that Jon was assassinated by them and now (most likely) is coming to take back HER home of Winterfell. Not for himself, I can guarantee that. His largest concern is the WW and what should be most important to everyone, how are they going to be defeated. We are coming to end game here. I just don’t see this little side drama playing out….Sansa captures the X leader of the NW? And wants to execute him? What????

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    68. Judibatt,

      I believe he’s suggesting that Jon could infiltrate Winterfell in disguise if Ramsay et al. haven’t seen him up to that point (which would depend on when in the season this is). That’s certainly a possibility.

      I think you’re overstating Littlefinger’s suggested knowledge. At most, it was indicated he may think R and L eloped.

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    69. Yaga: However, I think there is a pretty simple explanation for that – won’t Jon, technically, be a Wall deserter as far as Sansa and the North is concerned?

      This is something that is getting overlooked too often, I think! It should be a big issue in the next book and season. It should run parallel to Daeny convincing the Dothraki that she should not be stuck in widow’s prison.

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    70. Mack,

      Hi I’m not saying Littlefinger will take Ransey’s side. I think the army’s of the Vale will capitalise on both the Snow armies being greatly weakened by a large battle. I think the large battle will be a three sided conflict Littlefinger will have a “Warwickesque” moment and try to imprison both with the eventual aim of killing both Snow’s, playing kingmaker and crowning Sansa queen of the north.

      IMO Littlefinger sees himself as a puppet master, I think he would be much happier ruling through someone else rather than taking a crown himself.

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    71. Wimsey: This is something that is getting overlooked too often, I think!It should be a big issue in the next book and season.It should run parallel to Daeny convincing the Dothraki that she should not be stuck in widow’s prison.

      At least she has the advantage of Drogon. That would convince me.

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    72. Yaga,

      Pressure from who? If Jon is leading the anti-Bolton side at Snowbowl, and it sounds like he is, it wouldn’t seem like the Stark loyalists have an issue with it.

      In the books, it was even something that Robb commanded, so the Mormonts, Glovers, etc. would be in a position to let people know that. Stark enemies would complain, of course.

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    73. Wimsey: This is something that is getting overlooked too often, I think!It should be a big issue in the next book and season.It should run parallel to Daeny convincing the Dothraki that she should not be stuck in widow’s prison.

      Am I reading you say that the fact that the LC of the NW was betrayed and killed is not as important as he “might” be viewed as a deserter?

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    74. Wimsey: This is something that is getting overlooked too often, I think!It should be a big issue in the next book and season.It should run parallel to Daeny convincing the Dothraki that she should not be stuck in widow’s prison.

      Of course it doesn’t have to be Sansa who orders Jon’s execution as a NW deserter. We’re not sure who controls Winterfell at this point in the story. I suppose it could be either Ramsay or LF who fancies themselves Warden of the North. Getting rid of another Stark would probably suit both of them.

      Leaving aside the details of why LF and Sansa are back at Winterfell with Ramsay, one could imagine a pre-battle scene where Jon is trying to persuade them he’s not a deserter, and that the Others are coming. And of course nobody is inclined to believe him (You’re saying you were dead and now you’re not?? The Others are coming? The who???) but Jon is desperately trying to create a united northern force to resist the advance of the Others. He fails, and someone (Ramsay? LF? Sansa?) prepares to execute him as a deserter. That’s when Wunwun breaks through the gates and rescues Jon.

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    75. JCDavis,
      Well, I was working backwards through the scene, trying to justify the attack of the giant. Also, honestly, I think we can’t just have an all-out nice, constructive reunion between the Starks yet. It’s only Season 6/(7.5 or 8). So, I think it makes more sense that Sansa and Jon will be antagonistic in some way – and since, as you yourself wrote, Jon won’t have any ill-will towards Sansa, it stands to reason that Sansa has to be manipulated (by Littlefinger, by the Northern Lords) into a position hostile to Jon. Jon-the-deserter is as good a pretence as any.

      Also, “KL righteous”? It’s the law of the North that deserters from the Watch be executed, as well.

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    76. Sean C.,
      You’re assuming that Jon is leading the Northern Coalition. I think he merely comes to their aid and succour. There is no deciding evidence either way at this point, though, I think.

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    77. Yaga,

      Any “Northern coalition” would almost certainly require Jon’s involvement to come into existence. Who else is going to raise it? The various Northern lords that have been cast all have episode counts in the 1-3 range (with two of those four seeming to have only one scene, and the one with 3 episodes being the one many assume will side with the Boltons), which crimps any idea of Sansa doing it independently.

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    78. Summers child,

      I’ve been saying for a while – not at this extreme level though – that Jon and Sansa aren’t going to spend the whole season fighting on the same side, nor are they going to stay (physically) together afterwards.

      I cannot personally imagine that Sansa is going to run to Castle Black while Jon is dealing with his resurrection and the aftermath. Somehow she’s going to make it through the snow and winter with just Brienne and Pod and arrive at Castle Black and find her undead half brother? And then what? I think it’s much more likely that she ends up with the Vale forces or with Petyr, and that Jon receives a letter (mirroring the Pink Letter) either from her or Ramsey that causes him to leave the Wall.

      I don’t know if they’ll be dramatically at odds (I doubt that) but I don’t think they’re going to be in lock step all season the way some people are claiming.

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    79. Nadia,

      Why is it any less plausible that she goes to Castle Black than to wherever Littlefinger is, particularly since she has no idea where that would be (nor do the viewers). As well, if the Vale army arrives on the scene that quickly, what are they doing all season, since Ramsay has a huge army to fight Jon with in episode 9?

      Last season had multiple moments that seem to hint that reuniting with her family will be a big part of Sansa’s focus the following year, and certainly that Castle Black would be the first place on her mind to go.

      Moreover, Sansa going to CB first doesn’t mean that she and Jon stay in the same place all season. If they’re raising forces, they may split up, for instance; Theon apparently strikes off on his own fairly quickly, and if Brienne is initially involved (and it’s hard to picture an even vaguely plausible escape where she isn’t), we know she’s bound for the Riverlands at some point).

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    80. Yaga,

      Based on what we know about the season, Sansa and Theon need, fairly quickly, to get to a position of comparative refuge which can allow Theon to then depart for the Iron Islands (and, if you believe Brienne is involved in this, which to my mind is likely, enabling her to then head south for whatever reason). Sansa, in turn, could then turn her mind to whatever she’s going to do next.

      With that in mind, where is this place? The episode counts of the Northern lords preclude it being them, so you’re left with Castle Black or wherever Littlefinger is. The former seems far more likely than the latter, since it was set up last season, it’s hard to figure how LF being in the North that quickly fits into what we know of the rest of the plot, and it makes little sense that LF would let Theon go (battered as he is, he still has some potential political value).

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    81. While I think Sansa will try to head to CB, I don’t think she’ll make it all the way.

      To get to CB from Winterfell she would have to go straight through Umber territory. For Jon to get to Winterfell from CB, he would have to go straight through Umber territory. I’d think the Umbers would have people watching out for anyone coming through their lands, thus my guess is both Sansa and Jon may end up at The Last Hearth, or some Umber outpost.

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    82. Yaga,

      Yes…you are correct that the North is who is most likely to execute someone for deserting the NW. But we still have no clue about how that is going to come into play, with Jon’s Rez, what happens with the rest of the NW? The Wildings? With regards to Sansa she has been gone from WF for quite a long time now. Her knowledge is of a young teenager when she leaves for KL to marry Joff. How things changed. How does her mindset all of a sudden leave what she has known and been exposed to for years now back to what she would have known as basically a kid in WF? She didn’t see the beheading for this treason that Brann did at the beginning of the show and oh by the way, where is Brann in all this? He isn’t going to let something happen to Jon, I just can’t see that. It is a big leap in my mind. Though Sansa has uttered a few strong sentences, she is still pretty timid after all is said and done, as far as we have seen in the show. Maybe you are right and she all of a sudden jumps off a wall and becomes all badass Sansa. But it will have to be shown to me before it seems a realistic argument. Not that I don’t respect your viewpoint, I am just having a hard time thinking this is how it will go.

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    83. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      I considered this a good possibility at the outset of the season, but given that the Smalljon, the only Umber character we know of, is in only two episodes (one of which, you would have to think, is episode 609), the Umbers being Sansa and Theon’s place of refuge doesn’t fit.

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    84. Summers child,
      A very interesting post about Sansa’s story arc. She is not a character I am generally too interested in, but the arc you describe would make her extremely interesting and if it came to pass at the end of Season 6, would definitely prompt me to go back and look at each and every Sansa scene from the beginning. It’s worth noting that two people she has spent a lot of time with during her formative years in the show, are Cersei and LF.

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    85. Sean C.,
      Honestly? I think this is plot-dictated. I.e. if the plot decides that Sansa can find a good shelter in some random village (or an abandoned ruin or a wolves-defended godswood) while a villager travels as a messenger to contact Lord Umber, I’ll be fine with that. I don’t see her getting to Castle Black. She’ll meet Jon, yes, but in the scene that we are just speculating about.

      JCDavis,
      Well, in the speculation I proposed, the other people around her – the Northern Lords – would press her to remember the fine Northern traditions of beheading people. It wouldn’t be an epiphany or anything like that.

      As for what happens at the Wall, that’s interesting, yes.

      In the meantime, I’ve realised that there is also exactly the mirror possibility. I wrote that Jon shouldn’t bear Sansa ill-will, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be true. So, Jon may have Sansa and Littlefinger captured – accusing Sansa of ‘going Southern’, betraying the North, and whatnot. Possibly he may be led to think that she was sincere about marrying Ramsay, and want to execute her together with the husband. The giant attack would, obviously, prevent that, too. Somehow.

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    86. Yaga,

      That falls into the realm of things that could theoretically happen, but why would it? The showrunners have evinced a strong preference for characters to actually interact and a budgetary preference for consolidating locations (both also worth keeping in mind vis a vis the prospect of Jon and Sansa meeting before the very end of the year) — so sure, they could stick Sansa in a random village for several episodes (though we haven’t heard anything about characters that would fit such a scenario), but why would they? If anything, that’s the sort of thing that gets condensed out of the books in being adapted to TV.

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    87. JCDavis: Am I reading you say that the fact that the LC of the NW was betrayed and killed is not as important as he “might” be viewed as a deserter?

      Very few Northerners will view what Thorne, Marsh & Co. did as “betrayal” in either the books or the show. The Watch’s purpose (and thus the LC’s job) is to keep Wildlings out of Westeros: and by actively aiding the Wildlings, Jon has betrayed that duty. (And, no, nobody is going to buy the stories about the White Walkers; and nobody who meets Jon is going to buy the story that he did die but subsequently revived.)

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    88. Sean C.:
      Yaga,

      Pressure from who?If Jon is leading the anti-Bolton side at Snowbowl, and it sounds like he is, it wouldn’t seem like the Stark loyalists have an issue with it.

      Yeah, I don’t think the Northern lords or Sansa are going to concern themselves too much with Jon being a deserter. I mean, someone gives him the Stark armor and presumably he has some sort of leadership role in the battle. So I don’t think this is going to be Jon/Wildlings vs. the North/Sansa vs. the Boltons. There will be some Stark loyalists who align themselves with Ned’s bastard; desertion be damned.

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    89. Wimsey,

      Again, so what I am reading is you are thinking that for S6 Jon is either captured/killed, chased and on the run living the life of some sort of vagabond? No one will believe him, everyone thinks he is a traitor? Or worse because who the hell really knows what or who he is after he is Rezzied? So what end is there for Jon Snow? Just fall on his sword and really become one of the blue eyed folk?

      I am one that happens to think that Jon is NOT going to be one of the ones standing at the end game, but I do think he plays a significant part of that end game, with Daeny. It is hard to imagine that he could do that being imprisoned, killed or on the lam for any length of time.

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    90. JCDavis: Again, so what I am reading is you are thinking that for S6 Jon is either captured/killed, chased and on the run living the life of some sort of vagabond?

      In some way, yes. He is going to have to win people over from a very difficult vantage, much like Daeny will have to do. From what we are seeing, the Winter story must somehow involve the dilemmas caused by trying to win over people who would rather see you dead or otherwise removed.

      And as for your other statements, well: why would anybody believe him? How can someone let the Wildlings into Westeros and not be a traitor? The members of the Watch who killed him clearly do not believe whatever they heard about Hardhome If they do not believe it, then why would people who never even have seen Wights believe any of this?

      And, yes, Jon will be there at the end. He and Daeny are the two most primary protagonists in the overarching series. There should be a story that transcends the 5 or 6 individual stories within the series: and that can only be communicated by how the parallels in personal evolution for Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Bran and Arya (and perhaps Sansa) lead to the final “damned if I do, damned if I don’t” decisions that cap off the over-arching story.

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    91. JCDavis,

      He’s at the battle leading the Wildlings if spoilers are to be believed. Not leading the united North. My theory is that at the end of the battle the Others make an appearance and that’s when the various armies/survivors unite against a common foe, with Jon assuming a leadership role on the battlefield, since he’s the only person there who’s fought the Others or knows anything about them. (I’m assuming the North wouldn’t follow a Wildlings advice on the Others). Then Jon assumes an ongoing leadership role leading the resistance against the Others in S7 and 8.

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    92. Lisa0527: That’s a great thought! It’d be pretty hard to drag a giant to a funeral pyre. Maybe Wunwun escapes wight-dom after all?

      Yeah but they would have had to drag him somewhere, the corpse was blocking the tunnel. He might have been in the pyre with Grenn and Pip. The tunnel was clear when the Wildings went through, or Wun Wun might have been upset to see a dead giant there. That’s my insightful contribution for the day.

      Except to wonder exactly HOW D&D are planning to show Sansa’s escape from Winterfell after the jump. Everyone keeps saying, oh she made it to Castle Black or she made it to a Northern house — HOW? Obviously she did make it without great injury, but neither she nor Theon was really dressed for the weather; every step they made would leave tracks in the snow; there’s an agitated army swarming around. After seeing how Jon is rezzed, this is the question I want answered quickest when the season starts.

      We know pretty much that Dany is going to be ok, she has a dragon and the weather is warm. Arya will be bumping around for a while, but she will be ok. Not-Jaqen is just waiting in the wings to smack her when she messes up, he won’t let anything too bad happen to her. (other than making her blind, I guess) Bran is safely wrapped in tree roots, and has Hoder and Meera for company. Rickon is going to be ok, they showed him as feisty and brave. They aren’t killing another young kid so soon after Shireen.

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    93. Yaga,

      Sansa working with Davos would also be more efficiently accomplished by her going to Castle Black, i.e., where Davos currently is, instead of Davos randomly running across her in a village in the middle of the frozen North. And the only reason Davos would even undertake such a mission (though he has no leads, and the Umber episode count indicates they’re likely only entering the narrative at the very end) would be if Jon sent him, so one imagines such a meeting would lead to them getting in touch.

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    94. Sean C.,
      Honestly, since there are no filming spoilers about this, we are both basing our speculation on intuitions. And we may not even so eventually hit the same note as that that DnD will choose. So I think I’ll bow out of this particular discussion.

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    95. In considering how Sansa will react to Jon’s arrival, there are a number of as-yet-unknown variables that should influence her. One is that we simply do not know how she will identify him before they are face-to-face. The one photo we have of Kit on the battlefield shows him garbed as a Stark, yes; but he may not change into those clothes until he gets inside Winterfell. We don’t know for sure who his companions will be, what colors they will fly, what sigils they will bear before the ‘Six Armies’ converge, in what order they will arrive. We don’t even know what name or title he will be using after his rez. If an army of Wildlings shows up at Winterfell’s gates crying ‘the King of the North!’ or ‘the Reborn One!’ or ‘the Master of Death!’ and Jon is dressed in skins that aren’t black, she’s unlikely to realize that it’s her half-brother until she sees him up close. I could see her regarding him as Winterfell’s enemy at first, especially if Littlefinger is advising her once again.

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    96. Mack,

      In the book’s this happens too. Since she became Alayne Stone, she began to understan better her half brother and feels sort of proud that he got so far in life…

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    97. Lisa0527,

      Where has anyone said that he’s leading the Wildlings and NOT the North? He’s in Stark gear and there are Wildlings + Northern armies. There’s no indication one way or the other about his role and who is/isn’t with him.

      Also we’ve been told repeatedly no Others in this battle.

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    98. Yaga:
      Sean C.,
      Well, the way I imagine it, she’ll first have some episodes with Theon and possibly Brienne, and then Davos will join her in a version of his ADWD adventures.

      Now there’s a possibility that hadn’t crossed my mind: What if Davos became Theon’s escort/guardian en route to the Iron Islands? It would make use of his seamanship skills, and we know that he knows how to negotiate with pirates. Very off-book, but an intriguing direction for Davos’ arc, perhaps.

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    99. Thronetender: Except to wonder exactly HOW D&D are planning to show Sansa’s escape from Winterfell after the jump. Everyone keeps saying, oh she made it to Castle Black or she made it to a Northern house — HOW?

      If only she had a brother who was a Tree God or something like that!

      Nadia: He’s in Stark gear and there are Wildlings + Northern armies. There’s no indication one way or the other about his role and who is/isn’t with him.

      Strictly speaking, he is in Northern fighting gear: it is not specific to the Starks. And there are a lot of ways that Jon could come by this.

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    100. Wimsey,

      That’s fine, but there’s still no indication that he’s ONLY leading the Wildlings or that it’s in some way Jon/Wildlings vs. anyone in the North.

      Now, it could be that it’s Jon/Wildlings vs. Sansa/Vale/North vs. Ramsay/North. But that’s just as much a stretch.

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    101. Sean C.,
      “I think you’re overstating Littlefinger’s suggested knowledge. At most, it was indicated he may think R and L eloped.”

      Don’t know so much about that last part and what LF knows. He seems to (rather clearly) give the “You know nothing, Sansa Stark” face and stops just short of giving all of those secrets away. That was a pretty long pause and if it was for nothing, then I’d rather Sansa use that empty space to explain the meaning of her belt buckle necklace 🙂
      And I don’t take Jon Snow as the cloak-and-dagger type. Especially after a battle when all guards would be on their toes… if they are indeed headed back into a Bolton held Winterfell. We will see.

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    102. Judibatt: Don’t know so much about that last part and what LF knows. He seems to (rather clearly) give the “You know nothing, Sansa Stark” face and stops just short of giving all of those secrets away

      We have some hints that there are rumors that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar. However, we have zero indication that there are any rumors connecting Jon to that. If the former rumors do exist, then LF probably would have heard them as this is the sort of thing that would be heard in Kings Landing. But we’ve been given no means by which LF could have heard anything connecting Jon to this: the world seems to take it for granted that Jon is Ned’s son.

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    103. Wimsey,

      That TOJ sequence is going to be one hell of an important scene. I think people could easily be convinced that Lyanna ran off with Rhaeger, like you said. But a hidden son – even an illegitimate one – would seem implausible to most, unless there’s someone there with an impeachable account to confirm it.

      Is even Howland Reed that? It might be enough for the North to accept Jon as Lyanna Stark’s son (instead of Ned’s) but is it for anyone else?

      Also, it seems if he IS brought back from the dead, that’s much more substantial than whether he’s the outcome of some prophecy, which I imagine many people (including Jon) will have a hard time believing.

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    104. It’s been quite a while that Osha has been in the north with Rickon. It’s possible she has relayed the story of what happened to her husband, and because of her helping Rickon, there’s a chance she has been able to gain at least some trust. Thus, it’s possible some of the northerners will be more likely to believe in WW/wight threat. I also don’t think the northern houses will think it’s perfectly fine the NW murdered their Lord Commander, especially given, bastard or not, he’s a Stark, and as far as they know the son of Eddard. After all, while, yes, the Wildlings have been a huge issue for those in the north, the main job of the Night’s Watch is not to protect the areas south of the Wall from the Wildlings, it is, imo, as it says in the vows, to protect the realms of men. If some of the northerners do know of and buy Osha’s story and her knowledge of what is happening beyond the Wall, I don’t think they will all view Jon letting the WIldlings thorough as a betrayal, and again, I don’t think they’re going to be perfectly fine with the Night’s Watch murdering their Lord Commander. I’m also not one who thinks it likely they will view Jon as a deserter.

      Yes, there are a lot of “if’s” in there, but I don’t think it so cut and dry that all nothern houses will view Jon as a turncloack for letting the Wildlings through, thus think it was a-ok for the Night’s Watch to murder him.

      Sean C
      For some reason, I thought the Smalljon would be in 3 episodes, but in looking back, I see I got him confused with one of the other Northern Lords.

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    105. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      I doubt that one Wildling’s tale will mean anything. Insofar as the Northerners are concerned, she is an illegal immigrant and of a people that will tell any lie to get what she/he wants. If they accept that their is any truth to her story, then they will decide that she imagined the oart about her husband bevoming a wight.

      Ned Stark got first hand testimony regarding the Walkers return, and dismissed it as the ravings of a madman. Others will do the same. They will not accept that this is true until they have to do so.

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    106. Nadia,

      I doubt they will believe Howland just like that if he makes it to the show in the present time. He will need some bulletproof evidence and even that might not convince everyone. What kind of evince is that?

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    107. Geralt of Rivia,

      That’s why I’m saying, the fact that he’s the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna in the end might not mean all that much to Westeros. The fact that he was resurrected and his ACTIONS – that will be more meaningful. And the fact that we, as audiences, will know that he might be the song of ice and fire while he’s doing all that.

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    108. Nymeria Warrior Queen: It’s been quite a while that Osha has been in the north with Rickon. It’s possible she has relayed the story of what happened to her husband, and because of her helping Rickon, there’s a chance she has been able to gain at least some trust. Thus, it’s possible some of the northerners will be more likely to believe in WW/wight threat.

      I’m inclined to think that there is more skepticism at the Wall itself about the existence of WW/Others simply because the NW members come from all over the Seven Kingdoms. People of the North have heard tales of them from the cradle onward, and may be more inclined to accept that there is at least some kernel of truth behind the folklore. True, Ned didn’t believe that deserter, but he felt uneasy about his decision to execute him and maybe was just in denial that the Long Night might come again. The Umbers being literally the Last Hearth south of the Wall would have the most lingering family traditions about the Wildlings being not the only deadly threat from north of the Wall, I would imagine. In my view, their coming around to believing Osha’s story is plausible.

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    109. Wimsey,

      Hey, if you think Osha protecting Rickon and getting him to safety won’t gain her any credibility whatsoever with the Northerners, not to mention the time she has had with them to gain their trust, in addition to other stories possibly filtering down to south of the wall, so be it. You have your opinion, and I have mine.

      As for Eddard’s decision, at that point, what the deserter said did sound like the ravings of a mad man. At that point, there had been no other indication of anything particularly “different” happening. In my view, Eddard seemed to start questioning whether there may have been something to what the deserter said rather quickly.

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    110. Wimsey:
      How can someone let the Wildlings into Westeros and not be a traitor?

      Do you have an estimated episode for season 6 when we will be watching the future assassination of the traitor Ser Alliser Thorne who himself let thousands of Wildlings + 1 giant in Westeros coming from Hardhome, instead of leaving them North of the Wall?

      Or do you think it was all just a clever plot to capture the thousand wildlings + 1 giant with 100 (tops) crows at his disposal.

      I hope you do otherwise your theory is looking pretty shaky. Not that it was solid to begin with.

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    111. HotPinkLipstick: I loved the Jaime and Brienne chapters of AFfC. Not a popular opinion

      I agree, and don’t understand why Brienne’s ‘wandering around’ gets so much hate. It is through her eyes primarily that we get to see the terrible effects on the smallfolk of the War of Five Kings and the other machinations of the ruling class. She’s like the war correspondent sending us back pictures of starving refugees, destroyed farms and villages and so on. Without that PoV it could all just look like some big game with minimal consequences except to bored, jaded rich people. Her chapters take it all to a much more human scale.

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    112. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      I tend to more be in agreement with your assessment. It is hard for me to think that the LC of the NW is killed and no one seems to care, the fact that the person is actually Jon Snow (one main character in the whole series), means even more. I just don’t see how D&D and/or GRRM leave that hanging as an okay move on the part of the NW. Something has to happen. Also he wasn’t alone at Hardhome….Edd was there for sure and saw. At least that is two and there IS Tormund…even though he is a Wilding….he is big and strong and would stand well behind Jon’s claims. And tho Daeny has a dragon, Jon has a Giant. Right? Not that we agree on everything, but at least there has to be SOMETHING…..the members of the NW that stabbed Jon can’t go unpunished….which leads me to……..

      Wimsey

      You and I had a quasi debate over on TORC prior to Deathly Hollows, regarding Snape killing Dumbledore. I said that he would have to pay for that, you took another viewpoint. My reasoning is that you can’t take a character like Dumbledore, who was in the whole series, very popular with readers and movie goers, just be jettisoned out the window by, of course, none other than Snape (who most of the people at that time did not trust yet) and there be zero consequence. And though Snape turned out to be kind of a good guy in the end, he got his comeuppance. I feel the same about the NW. Jon Snow is too central to the story to have him killed with no other action for that following. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. Didn’t then and doesn’t now. Jon Snow gets killed, rezzied and then run out of town on a rail by the very people who killed him? Just typing it seems out of place. But that said, I am willing to wait and see what happens. Or of course be tutored further. 🙂

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    113. Nadia:
      Lisa0527,

      Where has anyone said that he’s leading the Wildlings and NOT the North? He’s in Stark gear and there are Wildlings + Northern armies. There’s no indication one way or the other about his role and who is/isn’t with him.

      Also we’ve been told repeatedly no Others in this battle.

      These are set spoilers from this site and Winter is Coming. No photographic proof was provided, so unconfirmed.

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    114. Lisa0527,

      You know, I found the set pics and the “battle of the seven armies” title very confusing. His battle gear is Starkish and I imagine that would represent the North. But at this point that’s just speculation. The only thing that’s sure IMO is that Wildlings won’t accept anyone else as leader from the Westerosi side. I suppose it could be a mix between Northmen and Wildings.

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    115. Firannion,

      I’m not certain of anything, I just like to think of possibilities. Osha has been with them for a while, now, and even though Rickon is very young, I’m guessing he would support Osha’s story, at least in terms of how she helped Bran and Rickon escape Winterfell, then helped protect them after. He can also confirm, although maybe it’s kept secret, before Bran and Rickon parted, they were traveling with Howland Reed’s children. These are all things I think would help Osha gain some trust from Northerners. I neglected to mention all the ravens sent from Castle Black throughout the 7 Kingdoms regarding the White Walker threat and calling for help, which would also help buoy whatever Osha tells them about what is happening beyond the wall.

      I agree with you those both in the southern kingdoms and from the southern kingdoms would be much less likely to believe. I also agree those from the north, especially so far north like The Last Hearth, would be more likely to believe.

      Time will tell how it all shakes out.

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    116. Lisa0527,

      Yes I’ve seen all of those. None of those imply that Jon is there just leading the Wildlings and not the northern armies, or that he’s not with the northern stark allies present. Can you please find me the specific spoiler that says he’s only leading the Wildlings?

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    117. Thronetender:
      Except to wonder exactly HOW D&D are planning to show Sansa’s escape from Winterfell after the jump.Everyone keeps saying, oh she made it to Castle Black or she made it to a Northern house — HOW?Obviously she did make it without great injury, but neither she nor Theon was really dressed for the weather; every step they made would leave tracks in the snow; there’s an agitated army swarming around.After seeing how Jon is rezzed, this is the question I want answered quickest when the season starts.

      Hey, Sansa’s got a cloak with a hood; that already makes her better-dressed for winter than any other main character in the North, none of whom ever wear any sort of headgear (how Jon and Sam’s ears haven’t frozen off, I couldn’t tell you). Her clothes look reasonably thick; since she was expecting rescue, I assume she put on whatever her best travel clothes were. Theon, I agree.

      As to the rest, I suspect the answer is “plot fiat”.

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    118. Nadia,

      But who is even going to belive he was resurrected? A few Wildlings saying so will hardly be considered evidence. Melisandres’s words will carry no weight. Indeed, having people believe this might make matters worse for Jon: they might then view him as some “wrong” and/or “evil.”

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    119. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      I doubt that the Ravens’ message will be taken seriously. The Lords of Westeros have too many real problems to worry about fairy tales: and particularly when those fAiry tale messages originated from the bastard son of a traitor who himself committed treason by letting Wildlings into the country

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    120. Wimsey,

      He could simply just say his men tried to kill him, ducking the whole “resurrection” part. In any event, I don’t think the show is likely to get bogged down in that matter — they already had Davos talking about how Jon should leave, and he’s a fairly honourable sort.

      In the books, moreover, GRRM has had Robb designate Jon as his heir and clear the way for him to leave the Watch, which senior Northern nobles like Mormont and Glover know about. For them, this won’t come out of nowhere. While the show hasn’t included that part, one can presume that in simplifying the plot the writers aren’t going to unnecessarily complicate Jon’s story, which would involve rallying support.

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    121. Wimsey,

      You presume that the show is going to have tons of Stark supporters care about him leaving the Watch. As for ‘deserter’, that will depend on how it goes, in any event — per GRRM, there are precedents for people leaving the Watch.

      We already know from the books that Robb’s nobles consented to the arrangement.

      I imagine there will be tension around the Wildlings, since that’s been a live part of the narrative.

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    122. Wimsey,

      You’re right, Wimsey…every single Lord in Westeros who received a raven will view Jon exactly as Alliser Thorne did/does (bastard son of a traitor), even the northern lords, thus will discount the information the ravens carried as complete bullshit.

      /end sarcasm

      btw – If every Lord in Westeros, including the northern Lords, believe Eddard was a traitor, and would look down on Jon in part because of that, why would any of them protect Rickon, or fight for any Starks? For that matter, why was Robb able to rally the North? He may not have been a bastard, but he’s the son of a traitor, at least the way you’re trying to set it up.

      You keep digging in your heels and discounting any possibility other than how you are so certain things will play out. We will all find out with certainty sometime next spring.

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    123. Wimsey:
      Sean C.,

      But that still leaves Jon as a deserter and a traitor.

      I am putting my tinfoil hat on. What if Davos has the decree from Stannis, that would have made Jon a Stark if he would have taken the knee, in his posession?
      It would make things a lot easier. But then again, this is GoT….

      Edit: We all know Jon SNOW is dead….just saying..

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    124. Newbietothegame,

      I doubt that would matter. In the hypothetical instance where there are Northerners hung up on this, the decree from a dead king that they didn’t follow wouldn’t count for much.

      From the practical perspective, the casting of the Northern lords, to my mind, weighs against the idea that bringing them over to Jon’s side is going to be a huge dramatic problem. We’ve got:

      – Lord Karstark, in 3 episodes (1 of those presumably 609); a lot of people have pegged this character as a probable Bolton ally, which is a decent bet, particularly since we’ve gotten more minor lords.
      – Lord Umber, in 2 episodes (1 of those presumably 609).
      – Lord Manderly*, in 1 episode (quite possibly 1 scene).
      – Lord Cerywn*, in 1 episode (quite possibly 1 scene, and indeed, the same one scene as Manderly).

      * Using WOTW’s guesses, since they’re both good and it simplifies discussion.

      If Jon was going to be fighting a major (figurative) battle to win over Northern support for his cause, you’d expect these guys would be around longer. Instead you’ve got 2 guys who probably exist only to change sides in short order, 1 guy whose role will probably be mainly about reintroducing Rickon, and 1 guy who a lot of people think is going to be with the Boltons.

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    125. Sean C.: You presume that the show is going to have tons of Stark supporters care about him leaving the Watch.

      Actually, I am not assuming that there are going to be tons of Stark supporters, and I am thinking that there will be a lot of Northerners who very much care that Jon has let the Wildlings south of the Wall.

      Nymeria Warrior Queen: You’re right, Wimsey…every single Lord in Westeros who received a raven will view Jon exactly as Alliser Thorne did/does (bastard son of a traitor), even the northern lords, thus will discount the information the ravens carried as complete bullshit.

      Why would they give it any credence? The White Walkers are the stuff of legend. If they ever existed, then they disappeared long, long ago. They are not threatening to invade the Wall. They would take this as seriously as you or I would take warnings that Sasquatches are going to take over North America.

      Here is what will get their attention: the stories that Jon let Wildlings south of the Wall. The reason why they maintain the Wall is to keep Wildling north of it. Now, the Wildlings will not pose the immediate threat to the southerners that they do to the northerners: but the prospect of a mass of people who are even less civilized than the northerners and the shift in dynamics it will create in the north will leave them uneasy.

      As for digging in heels, it is rather the reverse. People here have dug in their heels that the Northerners are going to put the fact that Jon is Ned’s son over Jon’s treason and desertion. However, the Northerners all send younger sons and bastards to the Wall: and they all know the duty of those sons is to keep the Wildlings out of the North. They all know that those sons are supposed to stay in the Watch until they die. No one here has yet to any good reasons why the Northerners should make some exception for Jon. (And, no,

      Robb’s Will won’t cut it: the Northerners know that Rickon is alive, and even if they know about Robb’s Will, then Rickon still would be put before Jon as a clearly “trueborn” son. Besides, if this was going to be important, then it would have been on the show, and it would have come up in either of the last two books. This is just a Mt. Molehill.)

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    126. Firannion: I agree, and don’t understand why Brienne’s ‘wandering around’ gets so much hate.It is through her eyes primarily that we get to see the terrible effects on the smallfolk of the War of Five Kings and the other machinations of the ruling class.She’s like the war correspondent sending us back pictures of starving refugees, destroyed farms and villages and so on.Without that PoV it could all just look like some big game with minimal consequences except to bored, jaded rich people.Her chapters take it all to a much more human scale.

      Three points, and this coming from someone who actually likes Brienne’s story:

      1. Brienne has 8 chapters in Feast, the most of all PoV characters after Cersei. Even though her story has thematic and narrative value, did she really need that many chapters, especially after the relative economy and tightness of the first three books?

      2. Your point that “she’s like the war correspondent sending us back pictures of starving refugees, destroyed farms and villages and so on” is valid, but it is worth mentioning that both Arya’s chapters in Clash/Storm and Jaime’s chapters in Feast also serve this function to a degree. I can understand those who believe Brienne’s to be overkill.

      3. When you take into account that Feast skips over half of the core PoV cast and doesn’t do all that much with those that remain in the book, is it really odd that people quickly lose patience with some of the more… peripheral characters and plots?

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    127. Wimsey:
      As for digging in heels, it is rather the reverse.People here have dug in their heels that the Northerners are going to put the fact that Jon is Ned’s son over Jon’s treason and desertion.

      I think people are going to put the Starks ahead of the flaying, traitorous Boltons, seeing as most of the North is against the Boltons. I expect the Wildlings are going to ruffle some feathers, but if it was going to be a huge part of Jon’s arc, again, you would expect the Northern lords to be bigger presences in the narrative.

      And the will does matter. Major Northern lords know about it; whether or not they now prefer Rickon as heir, Robb still okayed his leaving the Wall. There is no reason to discount a plot development just because it wasn’t mentioned in ADWD; people still remember it, and it isn’t relevant yet, nor was there any context in which it could have come up. As for why it’s not in the show, probably because the show is going to simplify events.

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    128. Sean C.: Hey, Sansa’s got a cloak with a hood; that already makes her better-dressed for winter than any other main character in the North, none of whom ever wear any sort of headgear (how Jon and Sam’s ears haven’t frozen off, I couldn’t tell you).

      LOL I’ve always wondered that too. As far as I can remember, the only other character shown wearing a hood was Ygritte. And Lord of Bones had that thing over his face, don’t know if it covered his ears tho.
      Wimsey hinted that he thought Bran was going to be of some help to them, which would be cool, but I can’t figure out how messages would be relayed. Is he going to warg into her somehow? I once said I didn’t care how much I had to suspend disbelief about her rescue, as long as somehow she gets away from Ramsay. So if that candle defied physics and wind and kept burning, and Brienne and Pod just happen to be at the bottom of the wall, that’s ok with me.

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    129. Thronetender,

      One can’t rule out Bran being involved, though I’m skeptical of that happening this early; it sounds like he’s going to be focusing on flashbacks for at least some of the season, and giving the characters a quasi-omniscient ally when they’re just fighting normal soldiers poses dramatic problems.

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    130. http://winteriscoming.net/2015/10/26/exclusive-spoilers-from-inside-the-siege-of-riverrun/

      Oh wow, all Umbers siding with the Boltons reports their source. That is tough to swallow. I had supposed the dynamics had changed now that Whoresbane no longer has a nephew hostage that he needs to protect by siding with the Boltons but on the opposite side! Looks like Stannis being taken out of the equation early gave the show the possibility for a complete rewrite of the alliances in the North.

      Thank you for the link, Lisa.

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    131. Lisa0527,

      I doubt that Mormonts would support Bolton under any circumstances. Some of the Northern lords (not many of them) will side with Jon+ Wildlings and if he is with Sansa. Even better. Karstarks and Umbers might be with Boltons.

      Jon’s reputation will be far from being the best. Wildlings, being practically a deserter. Maybe that’s why Sansa is the key and they will meet. Together they can gather some lords to fight with them. You know, Northerners hate Boltons even more than Wildlings. Northerners animosity towards Wildlings could be a huge factor after the battle of the North. When Boltons are defeated.

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    132. Do we think that Jon will be considered “the Starks”? I would have thought not, given that he’s now leading an army of Wildlings, who are the traditional enemy of the North. The northern lords have Sansa and Rickon, and know Bran is likely alive. So they have plenty of Starks to rally around. Why would they consider a deserter from the NW, a traitor who let the Wildlings through the Wall, who’s now leading an army of enemy Wildlings, as “the Starks” rather than “the enemy”? Don’t get me wrong. I completely believe Jon will eventually assume a leadership role in the fight against the Others. But he’s got some ‘splaining to do before that happens. At some point the northern lords will realize who the real enemy is, but I don’t think they’re there yet.

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    133. Sean C.: Sansa’s got a cloak with a hood; that already makes her better-dressed for winter than any other main character in the North, none of whom ever wear any sort of headgear (how Jon and Sam’s ears haven’t frozen off, I couldn’t tell you).

      Real-life Northerners grow up with Moms who never tire of lecturing them, ‘If you’re cold, put a hat on! Ninety percent of body heat is lost through the head, you know that!’ But Hollywooders don’t, I guess.

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    134. Lisa0527,

      Among other things, that presumes that Sansa and Rickon themselves don’t have anything to say about it (book Rickon is still a preschooler, of course, but the show version is noticeably older).

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    135. Sean C.: I think people are going to put the Starks ahead of the flaying, traitorous Boltons, seeing as most of the North is against the Boltons.

      In the end, that might be the case. But it is not going to be the case immediately. Yes, the Boltons are bad: but the Boltons are bad Northerners, and bad northerners still are better than Wildlings.

      Geralt of Rivia: Jon’s reputation will be far from being the best. Wildlings, being practically a deserter. Maybe that’s why Sansa is the key and they will meet.

      One thing to wonder is: how much will Jon advertise who he is? If he does not tell them that he is Jon Snow, then they will not know: it’s not like people know what other people look like.

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    136. Wimsey: In the end, that might be the case.But it is not going to be the case immediately.

      Again, considering how comparatively short a span the Northern lords are looking to be in the narrative this season, it can’t really take that long.

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    137. Wimsey,

      Well, since you know exactly how everyone views Jon, and exactly how they’re going to react to Jon, not to mention the fact no one in Westeros who received a raven will give it even an iota of credence, why don’t you tell us what happens in the rest of the story.

      You’ve been presented with several reasons and possibilities by a variety of people as to why things may not go the way you think they will. You may dismiss them all, and that’s fine, but thus far you’re the only one I’ve seen who considers only one possibility based on how you interpret certain things.

      It reminds me of when you said Sansa was too dumb/befuddled/whatever to tell Ned the story of what really happened with Joffrey and Arya. Even after you were given a direct quote showing Sansa had, in fact, told Ned what really happened, you just kept on as though the quote didn’t exist. No, I’m not saying this is a matter where a quote could prove something as correct or incorrect, but it’s the same m.o.

      If the Northern Lords receive Jon differently from how you’re so convinced they will, if even one does, it’s going to be hilarious seeing your reaction. I’m guessing it will be just like last year, where you refuse to admit you were wrong.

      And, hey, if it turns out you were right all along, and it happens exactly as you seem so convinced it will…everyone will view Jon as treasonous, and a deserter, and no one, not even a single northern lord, will believe in the threat north of the wall..I’ll admit you were right.

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    138. Nymeria Warrior Queen: Well, since you know exactly how everyone views Jon, and exactly how they’re going to react to Jon, not to mention the fact no one in Westeros who received a raven will give it even an iota of credence, why don’t you tell us what happens in the rest of the story.

      It is not how they feel about Jon Snow the Person. What I do know (and what we should all know) is how the Northerners feel about the Wildlings, what the Northerners feel the purpose of the Wall is, and how the Northerners feel about deserters from the Watch. To this end, we know how they will feel about any John Smith who: 1) lets Wildlings through the Wall and, 2) deserts the Watch. Jon Snow himself has nothing to do with it: it is what someone who does what Jon did and probably will do that counts.

      Nymeria Warrior Queen: You’ve been presented with several reasons and possibilities by a variety of people as to why things may not go the way you think they will.

      Actually, I really have not. What I’ve seen are vague assumptions that the Northerners will view the Boltons as a greater threat than the Wildlings. I’ve also seen vague assumptions that the Northerners put loyalty to Ned Stark and his children above everything else, including the rules and purpose of the Night’s Watch. I see no reason to suppose that either of these will be the case. Indeed, it would be much more realistic if the Wildlings lead to the northerners putting aside their squabbles in the face of the common enemy.

      Nymeria Warrior Queen: ven after you were given a direct quote showing Sansa had, in fact, told Ned what really happened, you just kept on as though the quote didn’t exist.

      If I was given such a quote, I don’t remember that! Of course, that would explain why I ignored it, too: it’s hard to pay attention to quotes that you don’t see! And doesn’t the book have quotes from Sansa herself claiming that the wine had muddled her wits? (Of course, those came long after the events: and by then she would have mauled her own memory, as people are wont to do.)

      Nymeria Warrior Queen: If the Northern Lords receive Jon differently from how you’re so convinced they will, if even one does, it’s going to be hilarious seeing your reaction.

      If it is different, then it will border on being a plot hole. After all, Jon could not abandoned his post to join Robb’s army. As was pointed out, his friends basically saved his life by bringing him back. And the Northerners cannot suddenly just welcome in Wildlings because of their own disputes: if they were willing to do that, then why are they so hung up on maintaining the Wall?

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    139. Wimsey,

      You know enemy of my enemy is my friend.

      See the thing is that Wildlings might be a bigger concern for Northerners after the battle. The Boltons are currently the enemy of the state and I can imagine WW would be the next. They’re not far away from invading the country and it depends when will they attack. They might give them room for this North vs Wildlings or not. While some Northerners would be against Jon based everything that’s been said there, some might be with him. Not to mention Sansa could be there to vouch for him.

      With all the casting news so far. I think is far to say there will be one big meeting much like in Hardhome between NW and Wildlings. Not more than that. It’s not everyone is not going to believe him or that they will believe him. Much like Hardhome where certain Widlings believed in what he said. Much like what Lords in Westeros might do. Some might agree and others don’t.

      As for Jon’s identity. You’re joking right? His hair…that’s his trademark and every mother and her child knows this. 😉

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    140. I really like to see how this is going to happen ..

      We see people saying that jon will be having similar moment like dany like she did in the pyre and everything. .

      But those comparisons are only made in glorious scenes not controversial…why does Jon gets free pass in that .

      Iam guessing he will be burning the mutineers in 4 th episode parallel to dany burning the hut in dothraki sea..
      And both wildlings and dothraki will bow down to them respectfully ..

      I dont know how many of u know about Apple martini and other hardcores jon fans and dany haters from westeros.org who spent years saying how dany will be having a bad rep and all that …and Jon will be correct in assuming dany killed her brother to gain power …

      Now i wonder will they same about jon …a bastard boy where bastards are not trusted at all , a deserter of nights watch and leading the savages that westeros had been fighting for thousands of years..and possible usurper if he gets winterfell

      Mind you iam not saying jon will be having bad rep or hard time …but those who were preaching the same things for dany by twisting things to their favor….will they now able to do the same for their favorite snow

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    141. At the risk of getting involved in the argument I will point out that there are a few things that we explicitly know from the show and book.
      – deserters from the NW are executed
      – the NW has forgotten the true purpose of the Wall. Whatever it was built for, they now see their primary duty as keeping the Wildlings north of the Wall.
      – the Wildlings raid south of the Wall, murdering and pillaging, and are perceived as a threat, and the enemy, by northerners
      – nobody south of the Wall believes the Others are real (maybe some do in the book, what with that wriggling hand Allister brought to KL)
      – the members of the NW are sworn to not get involved in the politics of Westeros
      – members of the NW who leave the Wall to get involved in the politics of Westeros are regarded as traitors, and would be executed if caught
      – Jon Snow is a bastard. There has been no evidence that Robb’s will was delivered to anyone, or that anyone believes Jon is the legitimate Lord of Winterfell
      – the NW vow is for life, for this night and all nights to come. There is no evidence that death followed by resurrection frees you from your vows
      – the Boltons are horrible, horrible people. And most of us want them to die horrible, painful deaths. But we haven’t seen any real evidence that the northern lords are planning a revolt (other than possibly Manderly?). We don’t know who they hate or fear more…the Wildlings or the Boltons
      – there remain Stark loyalists in the north (Mormont at least), but not all northern houses will likely support the Starks against the Boltons
      – there is no evidence that the northern lords see Jon as a potential leader of the northern armies

      It’s possible to come up with all sorts of more or less plausible, and very interesting and compelling, theories that suspend one or all of the known facts. But if you’re arguing that your theory is “fact”, the onus is on the theorizer to prove it. The onus is not on the person stating the facts to prove that your theory is wrong.

      In other words, if you tell me the moon is made of cheese it’s not my responsibility to prove you’re wrong. It’s your responsibility to prove you’re right.

      So I have to say I have some sympathy for Wimsey’s position in this “discussion”. Everyone is free to speculate all they want. That’s one of the only good things about the wait for the TWOW. Time to speculate and theorize at will. But speculation isn’t fact. Can’t we just enjoy our theories for what they are. Theories and speculation, rather than lawyering up and trying to prove each other wrong?

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    142. And about the will of Robb ..

      We assume that he named Jon but we don’t know yet and we don’t the details of his will..

      Because of what GRRm said back in June or July in an event when he said that what you think happened did not happen in regards to the will …iam just paraphrasing …iam sure one can find that article and link it …

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    143. Lisa0527,

      While it’s true that Wildlings murder, raid and pillage the North for a very long time. They are not responsible for the death of many Starks (their liege lords). Northerners loyalty to Starks is well known. Much like houses loyal to Martells in Dorne. Lyoalty to House Arryn in Vale is even stronger, I might add. Not to mention that Ramsay is flaying people right, left and center…no matter who.

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    144. dragonbringer,

      I honestly doubt that Jon will be burning anyone. I can see him killing Thorne but that’s all. Olly was in a way right. Wildling did kill his family and in his age everyone else would be pissed at Jon. I can’t see him killing a kid. Even by a fire. Wildlings bowing down? I don’t think so in a way Dothraki would…I mean literally. I can see them acknowledging Jon as some worthy to follow. Only if he walks out pyre or something and that’s unlikely to happen.

      Visery’s death or other acts can be used by Aegon’s propaganda.

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    145. Geralt of Rivia,
      Except, as has been pointed out multiple times, it’s entirely possible to be pro-Stark and anti-Jon. You just have to fall into the mindset of ‘Jon Snow has broken the time-honoured Watch laws and oaths and is now abusing the Night’s Watch forces to usurp Rickon and Sansa Stark. Oh, and he’s also bringing his band of cannibal dirty immigrants to help out, as well– And the dead southern king’s red whore as well! Have you heard the one about how she supposedly resurrected him? Yeah, ‘resurrected’, I’d like to be resurrected that way, too, if you get what I mean– Well, this Lord Commander likes his redheads, if stories be true. Not that I fault him, but he’s a bastard and an oathbreaker, all the same.’

      The Northerners are traditional and honour-bound, and had some very bad experiences recently as well. That does not speak to a great openness of mind.

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    146. Judibatt,

      How can he “decode the Stark looks”? He hasn’t seen a male Stark in his whole life.
      There hasn’t been any mention of [crows joining the army against the Boltons.]
      And yes, he’s stupid, very stupid. Only a stupid person would castrate their most important ironborn hostage, flay the lord of House Cerwyn, and do it in front of the new lord.

      Unless Baelish had a spy in the NW draw him a picture of Jon Snow, he knows as much as Ramsay. He doesn’t seem to know more about Lyanna and Rhaegar than the average Westerosi noble.

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    147. Wimsey: In the end, that might be the case.But it is not going to be the case immediately.Yes, the Boltons are bad: but the Boltons are bad Northerners, and bad northerners still are better than Wildlings.

      I expect you’re correct, Jon’s a bastard, any surviving member of the Night’s Watch will say he defected from the Watch (with the exception of the ones that were at Hardhome) he’ll be associated with Melisandre (assuming she survives the resurrection process, and I expect she will; Thoros of Myr seems to be doing fine) and most of Westeros regards the Others as a fairytale; therefore I expect Jon to be resurrected right away, either in episode 1 or 2, he’s got way too much to do and much convincing to perform ahead of him otherwise…and even then I expect some not to believe Jon until the Wall comes crashing down and they see the Others for themselves…

      I expect he will secure Castle Black without much of a problem (after all, there are way more Wildlings there now than actual members of the Night’s Watch…) but AFTER that, he’s going to need all the help he can get (Sansa? Davos? Rickon? Bran through the Trees Network? Littlefinger through Sansa? A Spell by Melisandre? All of the above?)

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    148. Firannion: Real-life Northerners grow up with Moms who never tire of lecturing them, ‘If you’re cold, put a hat on! Ninety percent of body heat is lost through the head, you know that!’ But Hollywooders don’t, I guess.

      FYI, it’s a myth that 90% (or 80% or 45%) of body heat is lost through the head. Body heat is spread evenly throughout the body. Otherwise if somebody went out in the bitter cold, they’d only need to cover their head and could be naked otherwise and be perfectly fine, since only 10% of body heat would be lost that way.

      http://www.onemedical.com/blog/live-well/body-heat/

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    149. My Season 6 speculation, based on filming spoilers, book spoilers, and what we’ve seen on TV so far:

      I think Sansa and Theon will initially head out to Castle Black. Sansa did find out that Jon Snow is now the Lord Commander, after all, and it’d seem to be a logical place to head to.

      They will likely run into Brienne and Pod at some point (probably by the first or second episode), then the group will attempt to head to Castle Black.

      I don’t think they’ll be successful. At some point, the group will break apart. Theon will head to the Iron Islands to do the Kingsmoot thingy. Brienne will head down to the Riverlands (to look for Arya)? That means Sansa needs to be bound to a “safe spot” for the time being. My guess is Sansa ends up in the Last Hearth to meet Rickon and the Umbers, where she thinks she’s safe. It is not until after Brienne and Theon are sent away that we find out the Umbers are not Stark loyalists. Now the Umbers have both Sansa and Rickon.

      The Umbers bring Sansa and Rickon to … I don’t know. Littlefinger? The Boltons? This is the part of Sansa’s story where I really don’t know what’s going to happen.

      Eventually, we end up at the point with the interaction between Littlefinger, Sansa, Jon, and Ramsay. Then SnowBowl?

      I think I just confused myself even more than I was before trying to type all of this out. There’s little that makes sense. We know what Sansa’s “Point A” is, and we generally have an idea of what Sansa’s “Point X” is, but I don’t know how we get from Point A to Point X.

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    150. Lisa0527,

      I have heard this theory before but how could a united army even with Jon as the leader beat the white walkers. He is the only one with a sword that can kill them and the others will keep on going even if they have their arms cut off. It would be a blood bath and totally wipe out any of the northern armies. I think the whites wont cross the wall until the last episode.

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    151. JamStark,

      Yeah, I don’t see how the White Walkers showing up at the battle would result in anything other than the complete annihilation of the Northern armies.

      Josh L.,

      The only Umber character we know of is only in two episodes, which would seem to preclude such a story. Beyond which, the idea of the Umbers not being pro-Stark is dubious to me (I know some Reddit posts have claimed that); if they’ve had Rickon this whole time but are looking to exploit that with some other party, why have they not done so?

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    152. Looks like a lot of strong opinions from all different view points. It was interesting reading through them. I do have a question how do we know Jon commits Treason? We have no idea how he leaves the NW or if he does? Why is everyone assuming he commits Treason? Did I miss a spoiler? Just because he is near Winterfell does not mean he LEFT the NW and is not going back.

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    153. Sean C.:
      Wimsey,

      You presume that the show is going to have tons of Stark supporters care about him leaving the Watch.As for ‘deserter’, that will depend on how it goes, in any event — per GRRM, there are precedents for people leaving the Watch.

      I imagine there will be tension around the Wildlings, since that’s been a live part of the narrative.

      I think many people keep forgetting that although the series is fantasy fiction, it is based on medieval history. We try and frame the story in the context of modern life and our laws and accepted norms.

      Without Robbs will, or some other compelling (and by compelling I mean ratified by a top ranking noble or the church) evidence Jon will remain illegitimate (remember Roose had to get Royal approval to legitimise Ramsey), and in medieval times that made you lowest of the low. It is unusual that Jon was brought up with his siblings and if I remember correctly this is referred to in the books.

      No lord will follow Jon until this evidence surfaces. It would call into question the entire hereditary system which keeps them “above the salt” and in power in their own kingdoms. Even when he goes to the wall he is a Snow regardless of who is father is. He has to earn the respect he eventually gets (where as other “lordlings” get special treatment as evident in the first chapter and episode of GoT)

      In my opinion he will be leading the wildings (initially – then lead the armies of the North combined), and I think the really interesting storyline is how they will ratify this issue. Perhaps the evidence of his heritage is in old town and Sam will happen across it. Jon’s my favourite character but his journey to universal leadership will need a catalyst – where’s Manderly when you need him.

      I also think we have to view the Rickon debate in a similar way. Osha is nothing to any one, is a wildling with no status at all, lower than a servant, and shes a women. The only place this is different is Winterfell, purely because of the unique set of circumstances Winterfell was in when she arrived. No lords there, most of the army and high ranking people of the castle absent. She is initially sent to the kitchens to work as a kitchen maid, but ends up befriending/ playing nanny to Bran (mainly down a shared interest in old stories). I imagine she will have been sent to the nearest kitchen or dungeon once they reached the Last Health. I don’t think they will necessarily believe her stories. They might have reverence for stories about the WW due to an oral history passed down generation to generation, but not based on her testimony.

      Rickon as a minor will have no power or influence at all. All his power will be passed to whoever is acting as his “lord protector”. So his respect for her and testimony of her heroism will count for little IMO. ”

      What! A wildling women, rescuing you, impossible – she should be at home knitting? I think the little boy is making up stories” “I’m sorry, your husband was killed by what? Umm I think it may be that time of the month. Best go and have a little lie down pet, whilst us men sit around, drink and pretend to know what’s going on”.

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    154. MiaMoon:
      Looks like a lot of strong opinions from all different view points. It was interesting reading through them.I do have a question how do we know Jon commits Treason?We have no idea how he leaves the NW or if he does?Why is everyone assuming he commits Treason?Did I miss a spoiler?Just because he is near Winterfell does not mean he LEFT the NW and is not going back.

      We don’t know he committed treason per se, but he was accused of it by the FTW mob, he was murdered for it, and we have leaked S6 pix of him in Stark garb and not the NW uniform. Seems the treason accusation hanging over him is a good bet.

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    155. Wimsey: If it is different, then it will border on being a plot hole. After all, Jon could not abandoned his post to join Robb’s army. As was pointed out, his friends basically saved his life by bringing him back. And the Northerners cannot suddenly just welcome in Wildlings because of their own disputes: if they were willing to do that, then why are they so hung up on maintaining the Wall?

      So, if GRRM or D&D allow even one single Northern Lord to receive Jon differently than you think they should, it will border on being a plot hole??? Wow.

      btw – There’s quite a difference between thinking not every single Northern Lord will view the Wildlings being let though the Wall as a treasonous act, especially in light of information they may have received regarding the threat from beyond the Wall (oh, I know, you’re convinced every single Northern Lord will poo-poo it), and saying the Northerners will suddenly just welcome the Wildlings.

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    156. Summers child,

      Would the Umbers really act like that though? Having been close friends with Eddard, they might be a bit more down to earth.

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    157. Josh L.: it’s a myth that 90% (or 80% or 45%) of body heat is lost through the head.

      Reality-based or no, it’s the sort of thing that Moms say – like “You could poke somebody’s eye out with that thing!”

      I also wonder if it is closer to the truth if you count all the body heat that is lost via breathing out through your nose and mouth, which after all are in your head.

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    158. Firannion: Reality-based or no, it’s the sort of thing that Moms say – like “You could poke somebody’s eye out with that thing!”

      I also wonder if it is closer to the truth if you count all the body heat that is lost via breathing out through your nose and mouth, which after all are in your head.

      You might not lose a greater percentage of heat off of your head than off of other body parts, but it’s definitely true that the ears are susceptible to frostbite. I know a guy who was out in the wilderness in a northern high elevation location, wasn’t wearing a hat, came inside, reached up to scratch his ear, and the bottom part of the ear came off in his hand.

      Maybe Jon’s Targaryen blood keeps him warm enough to maintain his ears, though.

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    159. Am I the only one who saw this?

      Irish Thrones
      Irish Thrones – ‏@IrishThrones

      S6 filming at Magheramorne (The Wall & Castle Black)in Ireland continued & a ‘White Walker army’ was on scene!

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    160. A few elements to throw in the discussion on what the lords of the North do with Jon, that I have not seen commented but that may play a role on what happens next season.

      -The first one has to do with Jon’s abilities. His leadership qualities have been recognized by a long list of intelligent people and seasoned leaders, both allies and enemies alike: Tyrion Lannister, Jeor Mormont, Samwell Tarly, Aemon Targaryen, Qoring the Halfhand, Tormund Gianstbane, Mance Rayder, Alliser Thorne (yeah, even him!), Stannis Baratheon, Davos Seaworth, Melisandre, Karsi and other wildling leaders. Heck! Even the Nighst’s King recognized it.

      Last season he went to the lions’ den and managed to convince enemy leaders to do what he wanted (a really crazy proposition, btw), even after he admitted he had put an arrow through Mance’s heart! Yeah, he had the support from Tormund, but still, it has been pointed out several times throughout the seasons that despite his young age, he has the ability to sway people to his side.

      -Furthermore, he is experienced in battle and now he has an army of his own. Most of the seasoned leaders from the North were massacred at the Red Wedding or at Kings Landing, and few of them abandoned their allegiance and joined the Brotherhood Without Banners; so experience+leadership qualities are in short supply in the North, and therefore a good combo to have at hand, especially for the lords who oppose the Boltons.

      Jon has lead missions and battles (Craster’s, Castle Black, Hardhome). Even if the lords considered him a traitor and a turncloak, they might consider “using” him to conquer their immediate goal of battling against the Boltons and later on decide about his fate as a deserter from the NW.

      -I don’t think Sansa and Rickon, after all what has happened to them and their family, would initially have a cold, political response towards Jon. On the contrary, I suspect their initial reaction upon meeting him would be of joy. One more of the wolf pack is alive! Even if they later checked themselves and said “dad would have chopped your head off for defecting from the NW and so we have to carry our duty”, their initial response could give Jon some time to present his case to some of the Northern lords and even to Littlefinger (if he’s around,) who I think would very quickly value having a brave leader with his army to fight his battles for him.

      -Even if all the people who can talk about the WW and the wight army are dismissed by the northeners (why would they pay attention to Osha, any other wildling, or to Dolorous Edd, right?), Jon still has a giant and an enormous direwolf by his side (both creatures thought to be from fantasy land).

      So what could the Winterfell scene be about? Another alternative: maybe, LF and/or other Lords from the North agree with Jon to use him as bait to get Sansa in exchange, keeping Ramsay busy salivating about how he’s going to punish the NW’s deserter, and boom! Wun Wun comes to the rescue to let all (but Ramsay) out!

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    161. Lisa0527,

      Dammit I would like for Thorne, Olly others to meet White Walkers instead of Jon’s vengeance. But I guess Jon will deliver a swift revenge.

      I can imagine scenario where Jon would leave the Wall…basically deserting it for a good reason. While Edd and others would like to go with him. Jon would refuse this and let them guard it. I now that script that was posted even around here was extremely fake, but that ending sounds reasonable. The Wall crashing down, Edd getting killed with all remaining members of the NW and ressurected by NK.

      GhostCR,

      You raised couple of valid points. People are underestimating Jon’s charisma, leadership skills. I’m not saying that people will follow immediately, but I can see some of them actually working with him even with his status and reputation. After the battle it might be even better.

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    162. Lisa0527,
      Geralt of Rivia,
      If so, it’s pretty cool! The Watch abandons its duty, and, right on cue, the WW are able to cross the Wall. Pretty symbolic, even! Almost as if the exact numbers of the Watch did not matter as much as their 0/1 absence/presence.

      I’m looking forward to Season 7. (Yeah, to be PC, I should probably say I’m looking forward to *this* season, but by all accounts it’ll be still just clearing out some sidequests before the main event.)

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    163. Lisa0527:
      Am I the only one who saw this?

      Irish Thrones
      Irish Thrones –‏@IrishThrones

      S6 filming at Magheramorne (The Wall & Castle Black)in Ireland continued & a ‘White Walker army’ was on scene!

      If that spoiler is correct, then yep, the Wall is coming down on episode 10.

      Also in this episode, I would guess, the newly minted “Stallion that Mounts the World” (Danny) finally sets sails for Westeros.

      Are we sure that they’ve doing 8 seasons, not 7 ? LOL

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    164. George,

      According to a recent interview with Emilia, it can be anything from a split season 7 to full 8 seasons. As if they do have more material than for 10 episodes, but less than for 20. Sounds pretty reasonable, once the endgame starts rolling it can’t be too far to the end. And a lot of people, including me, have been expecting something similar. (Or 7 seasons + movie, or ideas like that.)

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    165. Geralt of Rivia,

      I agree with you. I don’t think everyone will follow him right away. But he can get through to some of them (the smartest ones or the most experienced, as has been the pattern with him in the past), and that can be enough to postpone his potential execution to a later moment, when events may end up making it completely irrelevant!

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    166. GhostCR,

      I always have a hard time picturing what the forum would be for him to persuade the northern lords of anything. How does a bastard and deserter leading an army of Wildlings get an audience at a northern court? Maybe through Sansa’s intervention? Just don’t see a really obvious path for Jon to do this persuading, other than on the battlefield?

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    167. Lisa0527: I always have a hard time picturing what the forum would be for him to persuade the northern lords of anything. How does a bastard and deserter leading an army of Wildlings get an audience at a northern court? Maybe through Sansa’s intervention?

      Jon has to do it himself. Whenever we consider the possible plots, we have to remember that the plots have to serve a story. All of Jon’s plotlines have had to do with him convincing other people that he is someone who is capable, who means well, and who is doing the “right” thing. (You can ditto this for Daeny.) And the identity crisis that causes for Jon always feeds whatever story GRRM (and then B&W) were telling in that book/season.

      To this end, it cannot be handed to Jon. (This is probably the single biggest flaw of the idea that Jon will have allies waiting for him: protagonists have to earn things, or there is no story.) Even another protagonist such as Sansa cannot hand it to him, although Sansa in some way aiding Jon independently certainly would work. (After all, in some way, Sansa’s actions have to parallel Jon’s, even if Sansa contributes much less to the story than does Jon.)

      All of this stated: when have Jon’s paths ever been really obvious in advance? This is the first time we are getting snippets of Jon’s actions without having read them first. If we had just gotten snippets of Hardhome without first having read the details of Dragons, many of us would have had wildly incorrect predictions about how that came to pass.

      (We can say the same of Daeny: and, no, using Drogon does not count as “someone else doing it for her” as Drogon essentially represents one of Daeny’s tools.)

      Yaga: If so, it’s pretty cool! The Watch abandons its duty, and, right on cue, the WW are able to cross the Wall.

      Well, one other possibility is that the Watch is forced to abandon it’s guard. Ramsay is going to think that Sansa and Reek are going to the Wall: and if he does go there and she isn’t there, then Ramsay is going to turn the place over while looking for them. And, yes, he’ll flay everyone he doesn’t kill first.

      Alternatively, something could happen that brings down part of the Wall somewhere else In many ways, this would make more sense. After all, the Watch has people in multiple places: so, losing Castle Black does not mean that the NW has abandoned the Wall. Or at least this means that there will be NW members on the Wall somewhere when the WW get through: there is not going to be some “mystical” force keeping the WW out while a single sexually frustrated convict in black stands on the ice.

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    168. Luka Nieto: Well, he’s the same guy who claims LSH is coming with an army next season, so I’d take his “scoops” with a grain of salt.

      How many more predictions of LSH’s imminent return will it take before she catches Jesus for most failed predicted returns? 😀

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    169. Lisa0527,

      Yeah, Sansa might help in this much like Tormund did in Hardhome with Wildlings. But ultimately Jon’s speech, honesty and Tormund vouch for him convinced some of the Wildlings. Ultimately Jon’s action will speak louder than words in the end. That’s why his parentage is not as important as some might think it is.

      Wimsey,

      He doesn’t have to do it all by himself.

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    170. Geralt of Rivia: He doesn’t have to do it all by himself.

      It has to come about largely from the protagonist’s actions: otherwise, it becomes arbitrary, which is a great sin in literature and cinema. As I noted, there could be some key contribution from another protagonist: but if Jon really is going to convince people to not nick of his head for being a traitor and a deserter (which, after all, he really is given the mandate of the Night’s Watch as most people understand it!), then he has to do something to win he should-be executioners over.

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    171. Lisa0527,

      Well, he is a bastard alright, but he was Ned Stark’s bastard, and Ned did not hide him under the rug. Judging by Jon’s recommendation to Bran episode 1, he accompanied his father and Robb. I imagen Ned did not only take him to beheadings, but also in some of his trips around the North.

      In the books Jon adviced Stannis on the route to follow to WF, and on the mountain clans’ leaders and other people who could lend support to his cause against the Boltons

      . He knew this first hand, not from other people’s accounts.

      Furthermore, since he wrote to everybody asking for help for the NW, I’m sure all the Northern lords knew that Ned Stark’s bastard had been chosen LC.

      Why would the Northern Lords listen to him? I don’t know… Why would sworn enemies like the Wildlings lend him an ear when he was, of all things, the King Crow? However they listened because they were in a dire situation.

      The North is facing troubling times too: winter is finally getting there, there are troubling news from King’s Landing, there are opposite factions in the North (the North remembers” movement and those siding with the Boltons), there are swirling rumors about what’s going on North of the Wall (surely there have been many other wildlings spreading the news, not only Osha) and yeah, thousands of Wildlings south of the Wall who probably would only listen to Jon.

      I believe at least some of lords might want to talk to the bastard.

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