Game of Thrones Nabs Two Saturn Awards and Sets Records for Sky Atlantic; Alan Taylor Wants to Return to Directing Westeros

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Game of Thrones picked up two awards at the 41st annual Saturn Awards Thursday night including Best Limited Run Television Series. Their second award of the night went to Maisie Williams (congratulations!) for Best Performance for a Younger Actor in a Television Series. Emilia Clarke was also nominated for Best Supporting Actress in a Television Series. A hearty congratulations to all the cast and crew! Follow the link for the full lineup of winners and nominees!

The Game of Thrones season 5 finale also became Sky Atlantic’s most watched entertainment program ever with a record-breaking 3.1 million views. This figure includes the 2am simulcast and 9pm broadcast on June 15th, as well as Sky+ recordings, and on demand viewings over the following 7 days. Sky is Europe’s leading entertainment company featuring live broadcasts and streaming.

Seasons 1-4 of Game of Thrones also broke 23 million downloads on Sky Box Sets.

In directing news, Alan Taylor (Terminator Genisys, Thor: The Dark World) took to zaptoit to convey that he wants to return to the world of Westeros.

Alan_Taylor_Game_of_Thrones

Taylor directed the infamous season 1 penultimate episode “Baelor” as well as the following Season 1 finale, Season 2 premiere, and Season 2 finale. Taylor says:

I want to. I keep telling them I want to. We actually had a conversation — David and Dan and I — about next season. It’s just making it happen for real.

Due to scheduling conflicts, Taylor was unavailable to return to Season 6 and commented:

It was Season 6 that we were talking about, and it wasn’t going to happen. I wanted it to happen, but it’s just a schedule thing. I’ll keep pinning my hopes on the next season.

We will too! Hope to see you soon, Alan! Head on over to zaptoit for the full interview!

And there’s your fix of Game of Thrones news! Would you like to see Alan return? Let us know what you thought in the comments below!

172 responses

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    1. It would be great to get Alan Taylor back for the last season. It would be fitting for a first season director to help bring about the inevitable reunion of certain characters.

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    2. Congratulations to Maise Williams. A well deserved award IMHO. She has always sold me on the character completely.

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    3. Off topic but, does anyone think we will eventually get that scene with the mad king, Brandon and Rickard stark that was shown in a season 1 trailer but never seen.

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    4. I’d love an all-star roster of past directors back for season 7 (pt. 1 & 2? probably). Taylor, McClaren, Nutter, Sapochnik, Sakirov, Bender undoubtedly. And then for no reason other than morbid curiosity: Jody Foster.

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    5. Shane Snow:
      Off topic but, does anyone think we will eventually get that scene with the mad king, Brandon and Rickard stark that was shown in a season 1 trailer but never seen.

      …missed that! But if it exists, I’m sure a weirnet vision wouldn’t be out of the question.

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    6. Shane Snow:
      Off topic but, does anyone think we will eventually get that scene with the mad king, Brandon and Rickard stark that was shown in a season 1 trailer but never seen.

      I’m hoping next season. If we’re getting Tower of Joy we’re sure to get that scene too.

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    7. Yes! Alan Taylor.That would be great.I hope Neill and Michelle will make comeback too for the season 7.I love their work.

      Maceless Fan:

      It would be fitting for a first season director to help bring about the inevitable reunion of certain characters.

      Wich one doyou mean? I would love to see Tyrion/Jaime/Cersei again together or Arya/Sansa.Which means it’s unlikely to happen.

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    8. Geralt of Rivia,

      Mostly Jon and Arya. Martin said that he intended for several of the characters to be together at the beginning, split apart, then come back together towards the end (like LOTR). The story never lets you forget the bond between Jon and Arya and I feel like they’ll see each other again. But other than them, Jaime and Cersei, all the Stark kids, Howland Reed and everybody, Theon and his dignity, and Clegane and Clegane (Gethype).

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    9. Maceless Fan,

      Oh Jon and Arya. Books really highlights the importance of their relationship. They seems to think about one another constantly throught the books. In the show not so much. They were supposed to be lovers in the original script (a bit weird), but that’s a bit changed to some degree. Well Ygritte is a lot like Arya…wild, Gendry is not so different from Jon. George maybe kept some parts and instead of their romance… he went to Ygritte and Gendry.

      I would like it to happen,but I think they will never see each other again.That would be one of the biggest tragedies in the aSoIaF and GoT.I can see reunion like Jon/Bran or Sansa/Rickon yes, but not all of them.

      Speaking of show. Jon’s mother will be revealed by someone else…I don’t we’ll see Howland ever in the show. Unless you believe HS=HR theory. I agree about Jaime, Theon and Cleganebowl.

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    10. My fantasy GoT Director’s list would go like this:

      Ep. 1 – Alan Taylor
      Ep. 2 – Alik Sakharov
      Ep. 3 – Michelle MacLaren
      Ep. 4 – Alex Graves
      Ep. 5 – Jeremy Podeswa
      Ep. 6 – David Nutter
      Ep. 7 – Alex Graves
      Ep. 8 – Neil Marshall
      Ep. 9 – Miguel Sapochnik
      Ep. 10 – Miguel Sapochnik

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    11. Shane Snow:
      Off topic but, does anyone think we will eventually get that scene with the mad king, Brandon and Rickard stark that was shown in a season 1 trailer but never seen.

      I’d love that. D&D have never talked about it, I think, and I can’t recall them ever being asked about it. Hopefully they cut it out with hopes to use it in the future.

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    12. Geralt of Rivia,

      I definitely believe that HS=HR, so I’m just waiting for HR to give up the charade lol. And I don’t blame you for thinking that Jon and Arya won’t see each other again, considering the track record of this series. But I think it’s gonna happen. Some good things will definitely happen in the end, along with all of the obvious bad shit that’s gonna go down. I would go so far as to say that Arya could be a candidate for the younger, more beautiful queen to cast Cersei down. Especially because compared to Dany, Sansa and Margaery, Arya is the only one who doesn’t want to be queen now or ever before. She’s the least obvious candidate and therefore the most likely. She’s like Jon that way. I’m aware of Martin’s original idea to have her and Jon together and I still think that it could still happen. Jon and Arya as king and queen of Westeros.

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    13. Shane Snow,

      I was talking about it couple of days ago.If those three boys from the recent casting news are truly Ned, Brandon and Robert.Yeah, they could use it. To show a bit of background about, how Robert’s Rebbelion started and fall of Targaryens.Otherwise I struggle to see why would they do this.

      I would greatly appretiate Rhaegar and Lyanna flashback. Knight of the Laughing Tree and how this romance started before we approach ToJ flashback.Littlefinger already mentioend Tourney of Harrenhal so maybe…

      There should be even some Ned scenes from season 1.Those scenes were cut from the show too.Isaac talked about it in one interview, so maybe, they will use those too in the near future.Ned’s confession before weirwood tree or something like this.

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    14. Maceless Fan:
      Geralt of Rivia,

      I definitely believe that HS=HR, so I’m just waiting for HR to give up the charade lol. And I don’t blame you for thinking that Jon and Arya won’t see each other again, considering the track record of this series. But I think it’s gonna happen. Some good things will definitely happen in the end, along with all of the obvious bad shit that’s gonna go down. I would go so far as to say that Arya could be a candidate for the younger, more beautiful queen to cast Cersei down. Especially because compared to Dany, Sansa and Margaery, Arya is the only one who doesn’t want to be queen now or ever before. She’s the least obvious candidate and therefore the most likely. She’s like Jon that way. I’m aware of Martin’s original idea to have her and Jon together and I still think that it could still happen. Jon and Arya as king and queen of Westeros.

      Arya is politely described as ugly in the books. More likely to be Sansa IMHO.
      Although… she could wear a beautiful face!

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    15. Ashara Dayne,

      There are actually conflicting accounts of how people see Arya. I mean she’s described as horseface and awkward when she was younger but later (especially when she was forced to dress nicely) she’s described as pretty. She’s also compared to Lyanna a lot, who they said had a “wild beauty”. And I feel like she’s described that way to throw us off the scent lol.

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    16. Maceless Fan,

      I would love to see this reunion, but maybe we’ll be pleasently surprised.

      I’m pretty much neutral to HS=HR theory at this point.There are some pros and some cons to this theory(more cons),but I just struggle to see how would crannogmen support The Seven, instead of the Old Gods.

      Since we’re talking about this. I’ve seen a theory based on the HotU scene from the show. When Dany was in the Throne room.Only one window was remained intact…”Seven Pointed Star” with blue rose in the middle of it. This could mean a lot of things, including that Jon is the true king (Rhaegar and Lyanna were married) or he’ll be crowned by HS in the light of The Seven.
      The strange thing is that blue rose seems to be connected to Dany in the show. Ned/Robert scene in the S01 talking about Dany, Daario and Dany in S03 and this one.SOme people thinks these are clus to R+L=D. It’s interesting neverthless.

      About young and more beautiful queen.

      Plenty of candidates from obvious ones Dany,Margaery to less obvious Arya,Sansa.I would say, it’s between Dany and Sansa.If I had to bet, it would be Dany. I just can’t see Kit and Maisie in any type of romance on the show, not to mention that I don’t want to see incest again and especially not in my favourite House Stark. I know that there is some history of incest even among Starks. I like their brother/sister relationship and how they can relate to one another in the books.But that’s it.

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    17. Geralt of Rivia,

      Jon and Arya would be incestuous in that they’re probably cousins, but that’s pretty common outside the Targaryens. Tywin and his wife were cousins and

      Alys Karstark’s uncle tried to marry her to his son.

      And by the time Arya and Jon see each other again they’ll be very different people.

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    18. Happy about the show and Maisie getting some well deserved awards.
      I’d like to see Alan Taylor returning as director, yeah. Same with Alex Graves and Neil Marshall.

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    19. Arya Havin’ a larf?,

      Emilia is awesome. She must be almost every men’s dream (mine too) with her personality,looks,talent etc , but this a bit too much. … “is on the verge of becoming quite possibly the most famous British actor who ever lived.”

      Maceless Fan,

      They’ll be very different,but I don’t think it means any romantic connection between them.It’s pretty hard to imagine Kit and Maisie in any romantic scene.If there is any romance for Jon in the future,it will be Daeny.All those parallels between them and build up to their meeting.Jon and Arya grew up together as brother and sister.Another problem.

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    20. Maceless Fan,

      Marrying Arya and Jon like it´s sometimes suggested is maybe a bit too much of a stretch, but granted, it could be possible in a logical, almost political way in Westeros.

      However, most importantly, it doesn´t fit one of the huge underlying matters of ASOIAF/GoT, which is the importance of family and finding one´s place in the world. I think Martin will reunite Jon and Arya, but not to fortify a political claim/ let her be Queen and him the chosen hero, but to prove that miracles happen, even in Westeros, and that there is nothing stronger than the bond between people who love eachother. Even though they may not really be brother and sister after all… By marrying Arya with Jon, GRRM would completely throw this message over board, reducing it to a maybe affectionate marriage (yes), but most of all a POLITICALLY motivated/convenient union. This would contradict all of what he was trying to get across.

      Think of LSH, which seemed to be introduced to explicitly show that the bonds of family can and will endure past the point of death, even if revenge for the lost is the sole motive of the return. If he had wanted to introduce her just for the “noose” and “sword”-part, Beric or any other guy/woman would have sufficed, but LSH is needed to show that there must be some sort of justice for the loved ones, even though these were already beyond the point of saving. It´s a bond that lasts unconditionally, so reducing LSH to a monster seeking blind, brutal revenge still gets this point across: If everything else is lost, once you have forgotten what your name or your purpose was in life, your family is the only thing that still matters.

      There would be other examples and different approaches (sometimes even twisted or unhealthy ones) to that matter like Jaime/Cersei, Oberyn/Elia etc., but that would go beyond the scope of a WOTW-post. The point is: even if there is no immediate gain to expect from loving someone/your family in the cruel world that is Westeros, it should be held high unconditionally. Marrying Jon and Arya because it would now have the profitable element of being a suitable solution for Westerosi-problems could falsify this statement to quite some extent.

      So the problem is not the marriage of siblings per se, which truly is a common thing among noble houses, but the unsettling feeling that a calculated poltical decision was the last catalyst for a love that should exist in a similar form even without gains and advantages.

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    21. Maceless Fan:
      Geralt of Rivia,

      Jon and Arya would be incestuous in that they’re probably cousins, but that’s pretty common outside the Targaryens. Tywin and his wife were cousins and

      And by the time Arya and Jon see each other again they’ll be very different people.

      If R+L=J then aren’t Dany and Jon some kind of cousins? They would certainly have a shared bloodline from Aerys II and Rhaella albeit Jon’s would be mixed with Stark’s.

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    22. Since a couple of people have posted their thoughts on a beautiful final season director list, I figure I’ll join in as well. It’s a mostly mindless exercise in fun, and those are the best. 😛

      I’m writing this based on sort of a cross between my worst-case idea of S7 being literally just a ten-episode sendoff and my best-case scenario of S8 being a thing that exists: I’m going the route of there being 14 episodes split into 2 sets of 7, because why not. Also, I’m not going to include S6’s new directors, simply because I want to roll with a hype list based on previous directors only.

      7×01: Alan Taylor (start things off in style)
      7×02 & 7×03: Michelle MacLaren (develop things at a good clip)
      7×04 & 7×05: Alex Graves (some climax; some character)
      7×06: Neil Marshall (a big, semi-organized battle)
      7×07: Alan Taylor (close things out with pizzazz)

      7×08: David Nutter (huge events at the beginning of the end)
      7×09: Miguel Sapochnik: (throw him the money and watch the magic unfold)
      7×10: D&D (no, I’m serious: they nailed the feel-good beats in “Two Swords”)
      7×11: David Nutter (summarily rip those feel-good beats asunder with further tragedy)
      7×12: Miguel Sapochnik (the action-intensive side of a last, chaotic battle)
      7×13 & 7×14: Alan Taylor (the winding-up of the battle and the politically charged end)

      There are reasons I don’t think this could ever happen, including but not limited to the show’s understandable love of clumping together the episodes their directors each handle. I imagine that makes the craziness that is producing this show a bit easier to keep tabs on and that makes “7×08-7×12” or so more difficult to envision. Still, it’s an exercise in mindless fun!

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    23. When it comes to flashbacks, I most want to see Rhaegar but I also dread bad casting – that whoever they get to play him won’t measure up.

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    24. Geralt of Rivia:
      Arya Havin’ a larf?,

      If R+L=J is true … aunt and nephew.

      Thanks, I’m not good at working out familial relatives ( from a small family, me!).

      Not sure that Jon + Dany would necessarily end in “romantic” match either, just something important to the story.

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    25. Arya Havin’ a larf?,

      It’s ok.

      Show is very clear in this parallels with Jon and Dany. Three possible scenarios:

      Either story is trying to set them up as king/queen, lovers or simply leaders of people against the dead. Perhaps it could be combination of all those three options. I don’t think they will fight one another, because there is simply no point of doing that… White Walkers are threat to everyone. It seems to me like they’re almost Yin/Yang of GoT/ASOIAF … they complement each other in many ways.I’m not a Dany/Jon shipper.I ship Night’s Watch mutineers and White Walkers.I’m very keen for this loveable meeting. 😀

      Jon/Arya it’s worse, because they grew up together as brother and sister. It’s hard for me to imagine them being a romantic couple.Jon knows nothing (nothing new 😀 ) about his possible family relations to Dany. I’m not a big fan of incest relationships, but Jon/dany is acceptable one.

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    26. Omg Alan Taylor directed Thor 2! The final battle was shot at my University! Now I want him to return extra bad. Valar Morghulis is still one of my favourite episodes.

      Also yay Sky Atlantic! We never get UK news so this is a great gem

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    27. Mormont:

      Also yay Sky Atlantic! We never get UK news so this is a great gem

      Viewing figures here stayed pretty steady and rose post SansaGate episode – just to confound the doom-mongers!

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    28. Geralt of Rivia,

      When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.

      This quote, which appears thrice in the books, portends a Stark reunion during The Winds of Winter.

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    29. Congrats to Maisie! Those are some fantastic numbers for the show.

      Maceless Fan

      Shipping or thinking about potential political alliances, is interesting. When it comes to the show I think it is interesting to consider the casting that they have done. I am not sure if they did they casting with the end game in mind, but perhaps they might have had an idea where things could end up. I would think it might be something that they would consider.
      Honestly I would feel a bit bad for Kit, Sophie or Maisie if they had to act out a romance on screen. Sophie and Maisie practically grew up on the show, they started when they where around 13 or 14, I dont know, I bet it would be super awkward and the chemistry would properly not be good.
      There are for example a lot of people who like to ship Sansa with the Hound. But again if you look at the casting for the show then you know it is simply not going to happen.
      But on the other hand if you look at Emilia and Kit, they would make an adorable couple. If there is an alliance or marriage, from a show point of view it is more like to be Dany and Jon.
      But then on the other hand if Dany is actually infertile then it would be imperative for someone like Jon to marry someone else. That is of course if all of these characters actually survives the final battle. Perhaps something like this could even be GRRM’s final twist, Dany and Jon might actually fall in love but Jon would have to marry elsewhere in order to continue the Targaryen line. That might seem a bit bittersweet. Then there are many other options such as Margaery for example, if it has to be a Stark, Sansa would properly be the better or more acceptable choice, and she is the eldest.

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    30. bristolcity:
      Randa Noyce,

      Alex Graves too I hope (although it is very unlikely, probably due to PR stuff).

      Can someone tell me what Alex Graves said that did not please D &D? I keep seeing reference to this, but cannot find the source.

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    31. Ashara Dayne: Arya is politely described as ugly in the books.

      Actually, the books indicate that Arya is turning out much like Lyanna, who was supposed to be quite striking. At any rate, Arya is turning out pretty enough that (when washed!) the Faceless men suggest that she could become a courtesan rather than a Faceless person.

      That written, any Jon+Arya stuff probably is residual from the original drafts in the story, where GRRM was angling that way.

      Maceless Fan: Jon and Arya would be incestuous in that they’re probably cousins, but that’s pretty common outside the Targaryens.

      Marrying cousins also was pretty common among European nobility at some points in history.

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    32. Does no one want to see the Mad King in all his mad glory in flashbacks? I honestly feel that he is a very important background character whose actions influence the current story immensely.

      Geralt of Rivia: Show is very clear in this parallels with Jon and Dany

      The parallels were really strong this season till the end. That’s when the parallel was shattered for me. Tyrion joined Daeny. None for Jon. Daeny is getting more people around her, Jon less. Drogon was mostly away, but kept an eye on Mom (ep. 2) and came at a time of need (ep. 9). No Ghost for Jon, who actually turned up to defend Gilly and Sam at one point! So in my show-watching mind, Jon’s and Daeny’s stories will diverge in the last 2 seasons.

      Boudica: But then on the other hand if Dany is actually infertile then it would be imperative for someone like Jon to marry someone else.

      But, but, if she is infertile, how will she die of “childbirth”, which is one of the favorite theories of the book-reading internet fandom, from what I gather? 😀

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    33. Randa Noyce: But if it exists, I’m sure a weirnet vision wouldn’t be out of the question.

      They would have to change the weirnet quite a bit: there weren’t any weirwood trees in the room at the time!

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    34. Kay: But, but, if she is infertile, how will she die of “childbirth”, which is one of the favorite theories of the book-reading internet fandom, from what I gather?

      More to the point, how did she suffer a miscarriage at the end of Book 5? Of course, we don’t know that she could carry to term.

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    35. Wimsey,

      And to build on the fact that Arya is said to look alot like Lyanna, it is said often that Jon and Arya are very similar looking, so another point towards R+L=J

      And Catelyn was unhappy that most of her children favored the Tullys, and that Jon the Bastard got so much of a Stark look.

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    36. I’ve been thinking for a while now that it seems possible to me the guy who vowed to never have an offspring…but wants one and the girl who has been told she never can have an offspring…but wants one, together are going to have one. I’m no fan of this Jon/Dany pairing as I fear it’s a little too neat and fairytale like. But I think it’s going to happen.

      But what I would not be surprised to see at all is Dany dying giving birth and Jon dying in battle making their quick but passionate relationship Lyanna and Rhaegar 2.0 and their offspring becomes Jon Snow 2.0 and someone, possibly Tyrion or Sansa or both become Ned Stark 2.0 and raise and protect the kid. GRRM does love repeating stories ad has commented often how much history repeating itself in real life fascinates him. Makes for the “bitterweet” ending he’s promising as well. Jon and Dany love on through their kid = sweet, both are dead and the child is parentless = bitter.

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    37. Kay:
      Does no one want to see the Mad King in all his mad glory in flashbacks? I honestly feel that he is a very important background character whose actions influence the current story immensely.

      Oh no, I very much want that! But it’s one of those things that I might prefer didn’t happen unless there’s a full-fledged eighth season. The show is sometimes a bit too brief with its material and I’d love to see it given time to breathe wherever and whenever necessary.

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    38. Darkstar: Can someone tell me what Alex Graves said that did not please D &D? I keep seeing reference to this, but cannot find the source.

      I don’t remember his exact words, but the day after Jamie/Cersei rape scene in S4, he said something about it not being rape and the internet (already in white hot outrage mode), jumped all over his comments. I read a lot of other commenters, like over at i09, hoping he’d be banned from future episodes, and it looks like they got their wish (though I don’t know of any evidence it involved his comments, so much as the natural turnover for a series). The same thing might’ve happened to Bryan Cogman after the Sansa episode this year, but I imagine he’s inoculated somewhat by his producer status, and essentially being the third show runner. All this, justified or not, stokes the Internet Outrage machine’s theory that GoT is run by white dudes who are tone deaf to questions of misogyny and race, etc.

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    39. Kay,

      I feel the Mad King is very important to the story, as I believe that he was

      driven mad by the AA prophecy. I also believe that like AA he tried 3 times to forge lightbringer…Rhaella=Dany, Joanna Lannister=Tyrion or J/C and Lyanna= Jon. Rhaegar was simply doing his father’s bidding.

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    40. Ravyn,

      Yeah the loss of Graves was ridiculous. I hope Cogman doesn’t get shafted as well. At least we have Sapovchik. No one is safe from the SJW’s wrath not even Joss Whedon.

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    41. Boudica,

      I just think that Jon and Arya’s bond has been so strong, so much so that it has defined several decisions that both characters have made. They grew up together and were both basically kids when they last saw each other. But if/when they meet again, they’ll both be changed by their experiences. Dany and Jon don’t have any connection other then a possible familial one, so if they ended up together it wouldn’t have the same impact. It could happen for political reasons, but it would honestly feel forced compared to Jon/Arya. There have also been numerous allusions to how everything moves in a circle and that what has happened before will happen again. I feel like Arya is Jon’s Lyanna.

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    42. Ginevra,

      Given the present circumstances and locations of the characters it seems to me that a Sansa and Rickon reunion would be the most likely.

      All this talk about love/romance/marriage between Jon and leading female characters is mute. Jon Snow is dead, isn’t he??????? LOL

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    43. Boudica,
      But then on the other hand if Dany is actually infertile then it would be imperative for someone like Jon to marry someone else.

      I believe that this Mirri Maz Dur prophecy will come true, which means that Dany won’t be infertile forever:

      When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.

      The website that shan’t be named (:cough: Westeros :cough:) has an interesting take on this prophecy, which is that most of the prophecy has been filled metaphorically already. The sun’s son (Quentyn Martell) rose in the west (left Westeros) and set (died) in the east (Essos). The seas (Dothraki) went dry. The mountains (pyramids of Meereen) blow in the wind (collapse). The only part that has yet to be fulfilled is the part that won’t be metaphorical, bearing a living child. And then that child will be Drogo.

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    44. Kay: he is a very important background character whose actions influence the current story immensely.

      All the characters that he directly influenced are dead, save Jaime: and Jaime already recounted what was important.

      That written, I think that a flashback might have worked better in the bathtub scene: actually showing us a deranged king while Jaime voiced over the same dialog might have been even more effective than that scene was. (That written, it was unusually effective despite it telling and not showing.)

      At this point, however, I think that it is water under the bridge.

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    45. Maisie is a fantastic actress, she deserves this!
      And I wish all the Sky Atlantic-s could be included in the count, somehow… I was one of those who followed the 3 a.m. episode, I’d love to know how many we were!

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    46. Ginevra,

      That’s an interesting theory but Mirri Maz gave Dany the same prophecy in the show and Quentyn (sun’s son) appears to be cut. And I’m not saying that some Dornish equivalent couldn’t take his place in the prophecy but it just hasn’t happened yet. What if that prophecy is literal in the sense that something happens that throws the whole planet’s rotation out of whack and the sun rises and sets in opposite directions?

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    47. Joshua Atreides,

      Even if so, then that just makes him part of the background plot, not the story. The Mad King is not currently inducing any identity crises in any of the main characters, and that is what it would take for him to really be relevant to the last two stories.

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    48. Queen of the Keys:
      Maisie is a fantastic actress, she deserves this!
      And I wish all the Sky Atlantic-s could be included in the count, somehow… I was one of those who followed the 3 a.m. episode, I’d love to know how many we were!

      My two cats and I did if that’s any help, that’s four of us 😉 I’m trying to work out what’s happening in the picture of Alan Taylor. He looks like he’s either explaining to Sophie how to backhand slap someone, using Peter as the recipient, or he’s knocking the woman to his right’s glasses off using an upward jab. Sorry, not getting my sunday night/monday morning GoT fix and suffering withdrawal symptoms which tend to manifest themselves in extreme facetiousness.

      Is it too early to start playing who do we think dies in series 6? (my guesses are Olyvar and Tommen, plus obviously LOADS of others but not sure who yet) or even who makes it to the end alive? Ironically the only person I would put good money on is Jon. Maybe not to the closing credits of the very last episode, but almost to the very end, perhaps sacrificing himself nobly for others at the last minute so he gets a death he would want rather than “For the Watch”. (I think he’s dead but am 99.9% certain he’ll be back, possibly a changed man, but very likely resurrected by Mel. Sorry, not trying to turn this into yet another is Jon dead thread…mmm poetry.)

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    49. Jeff O’Connor,

      Episode 1 : Miguel Sapochnik
      Episode 2 : Miguel Sapochnik
      Episode 3 : Alik Sakharov
      Episode 4 : Alik Sakharov
      Episode 5 : David Nutter
      Episode 6 : David Nutter
      Episode 7 : Jack Bender
      Episode 8 : Jack Bender

      Episode 9 : Alan Taylor
      Episode 10 : Alan Taylor
      Episode 11 : Jeremy Podeswa
      Episode 12 : Jeremy Podeswa
      Episode 13 : Michelle MacLaren
      Episode 14 : Miguel Sapochnik
      Episode 15 : Miguel Sapochnik
      Episode 16 : Timothy Van Patten / David Benioff & D.B. Weiss

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    50. Joshua Atreides:

      I feel the Mad King is very important to the story, as I believe that he was

      Yeah, agreed. I too believe he was driven mad by prophecy and tried to (and succeed? we may find out eventually) forge Lightbringer. If this is true, flashbacks involving him/about him may be important.

      Wimsey: All the characters that he directly influenced are dead, save Jaime: and Jaime already recounted what was important.

      We don’t yet know exactly all about the past, we can only surmise, and sometimes we can surmise wrong. He may yet have some role to play in the story of the current crop of characters. Or not. We haven’t come to the end of the series yet.

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    51. Wimsey: All the characters that he directly influenced are dead, save Jaime: and Jaime already recounted what was important.

      That written, I think that a flashback might have worked better in the bathtub scene: actually showing us a deranged king while Jaime voiced over the same dialog might have been even more effective than that scene was.(That written, it was unusually effective despite it telling and not showing.)

      At this point, however, I think that it is water under the bridge.

      I agree with this. If they were going to do a Mad King flashback, than an earlier season would have been the time to do the scene. Maybe the episode in Season 1 where Jaime and Ned talk about it. When Jaime says he killed the Mad King because of Rickard and Brandon. Ned replies basically BS you didn’t do it for my House and family. You did it for your own reasons. They should have shown the one that was cut. Too bad.

      I think it is a bit too late for lots of flashbacks.

      It looks like they are doing 2 next year. They may do a couple more for the last season.

      It would have been good to do a few peppered throughout the past 4 seasons. For example, Oberyn’s monologue about Elia w/ Tyrion last year. I look forward to the ones next season.

      First time posting. I hope I got it right!

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    52. Ravyn: The same thing might’ve happened to Bryan Cogman after the Sansa episode this year, but I imagine he’s inoculated somewhat by his producer status, and essentially being the third show runner.

      From Cogman’s tweets prior to U3, I got the impression that the controversial Sansa scene was more a push from D&D – or perhaps you meant because he implied that D&D were responsible for that scene? Here are the series of tweets from Cogman:

      Bryan: Thank you all for the kind words on #KillTheBoy. Very proud of it and of Jeremy Podeswa our director. But I do want remind everyone how TV works. This episode, like every episode, is due to the blood sweat & tears of every department and it begins and ends, on every episode with David & Dan. It’s their baby. It’s their hard work and dedication and creativity that make #GoT eps sing — and that goes for the episodes for which I’m credited. Again, thank you all for the kind words, I’m happy so many of you enjoyed it.

      Ravyn: All this, justified or not, stokes the Internet Outrage machine’s theory that GoT is run by white dudes who are tone deaf to questions of misogyny and race, etc.

      I’m particularly thinking that the Oxford Union interview did them no favors in that regard. A female fan asks about the controversy surrounding the Season 4 Jaime and Cersei scene that many criticized for what they considered to be a flippant portrayal of rape. Specifically, she asks what their thoughts would be toward dealing with this kind of material in the future because this caused so much of a controversy.

      David: I would hope that it would not affect at all our future writing on the series – the fact that it created controversy. I would hope that we would have the courage to write what the show demands….

      I love his second sentence. His first sentence could be seen as heroic because being unwavering in the face of overwhelming odds can be quite heroic. And it can also be quite stupid. I tend to see this scenario as the latter. I’m not saying they were wrong with that scene, but I do think that a wise man would take controversy of that caliber as a sign that he needs to reevaluate the situation to make absolutely certain the right decisions were made. If the world is screaming at you, you should be humble enough to consider the possibility you erred, and you should reassess to see if you did. But this statement sounds like they will never stoop so low as to give any attention to criticism, whether valid or not.

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    53. I did not know if I should have put that part of comment in spoiler tags. It is speculation about the next two seasons. I hope I did the spoiler okay and no unsullied got spoiled for next season. That was my first comment on this website. I figured better safe than sorry. The rest is about season 1 and 4 so I think I am good, right? I’ll find out.

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    54. Angela: First time posting. I hope I got it right!

      Well, you agreed with me, so I would say “yes” 😀

      To an extent, flashbacks like prior conversations are covered on the “previously on….” parts. (I know that Skye doesn’t do those, which is a huge disservice to it’s viewers: they really should assume that people have more to do with their lives than memorize TV shows.) If they do flashbacks, then they should show novel material that feeds the story.

      I thought that the one flashback that they did this year to start the season was superb for that in two ways. One, it informed the viewer about why Cersei was doing all the dumb things that she was doing: a desperate attempt to thwart prophecy. Two, it showed us that adult Cersei was little different than child Cersei: and the helped set up the whole “kill the boy/girl, become the man/woman” story. Cersei spectacularly fails to kill her inner girl (i.e., the unthinking spoiled brat with the subtlety of a bison stampede), and she fails spectacularly in her attempts to raise herself to “The Queen” because of it.

      Here is the big kicker: we don’t know what Season’s 6 story is. I am betting that it’s going to be something along the lines of choosing between sides when you either: 1) like members of 2+ sides, or 2) dislike members of all sides. However, that’s just a stab: it could be quite different.

      We do know that they will not do flashbacks just for “world-building.” So, if they are doing (say) young Robert, Ned and someone else, then it will either feed the story or one of the primary plots in someway. However, as I dont’ have a time machine, I don’t know how!

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    55. Kay,

      I think the idea of Jon, Cersei/Jaime and Dany being the offspring of the Mad King and siblings is just too delicious to pass up. Not to mention that half the Kings Guard was deployed to guard Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. They were probably following Aerys strict orders that his son must be protected, One could construe that Aerys thought any issue between he and Lyanna as his Stark broodmare would be important because it would mix the bloodlines of the First Men (the Starks which is the lineage of what the Nights King supposedly was ) and Old Valyria (Targaryen). BloodRaven I can see as a sort of a Rasputin for Aerys, perhaps even a mentor for he and Rhaegar who may have wittingly assisted his father for the greater good. Plus if Jaime and not Tyrion is the other head of the dragon with Cersei as the mad Queen in King’s Landing we would have history repeating itself with the Dance of Dragons II. Meanwhile to Tywin’s chagrin, Tyrion was his only son.

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    56. Angela,
      There’s probably an official definition (although I don’t remember ever seeing it) but I always go with cover anything at all which can’t be gleaned purely from show episodes which have already aired – better safe than sorry. (I once posted some speculation that wasn’t clearly labelled as such and people were NOT happy, although this was about an episode which had leaked prior to airing. Once I managed to reassure them I was guessing it was ok, but there was 10 minutes or so of “oh thanks lady you’ve ruined a major plot point” anguish and this was in the open chat shortly before that particular episode was due to start.) 🙁

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    57. Maceless Fan,

      I definitely got the impression that the sun rising in the west and setting in the east was the same conundrum in Planetos as it is here. I was thinking that if she travels west to go east, and if she goes west fast enough (i.e., faster than the sun speeds around the earth, on supersonic dragons), then the sun which has already set could rise (relative to Dany) in the west and eventually set in the east. But you’d need some ridiculously fast dragons, right?

      If the Martell meaning is right, I’m not sure what they’ll do in the show. They might ignore it because they’ve not emphasized the prophecies as much in the show.

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    58. Ginevra: From Cogman’s tweets prior to U3, I got the impression that the controversial Sansa scene was more a push from D&D – or perhaps you meant because he implied that D&D were responsible for that scene?Here are the series of tweets from Cogman:

      I’m particularly thinking that the Oxford Union interview did them no favors in that regard.A female fan asks about the controversy surrounding the Season 4 Jaime and Cersei scene that many criticized for what they considered to be a flippant portrayal of rape.Specifically, she asks what their thoughts would be toward dealing with this kind of material in the future because this caused so much of a controversy.

      I love his second sentence.His first sentence could be seen as heroic because being unwavering in the face of overwhelming odds can be quite heroic.And it can also be quite stupid.I tend to see this scenario as the latter.I’m not saying they were wrong with that scene, but I do think that a wise man would take controversy of that caliber as a sign that he needs to reevaluate the situation to make absolutely certain the right decisions were made.If the world is screaming at you, you should be humble enough to consider the possibility you erred, and you should reassess to see if you did.But this statement sounds like they will never stoop so low as to give any attention to criticism, whether valid or not.

      As a writer myself, I’m actually on board with their philosophy. Once you start down the road of answering one group’s complaints, you start answering everyone’s, and pretty soon, you’re not in control of your own work anymore. Frankly, I think the show has consistently shown it to be one of the most feminist shows in TV history, with a string of strong, decisive, independent, and willful female characters. I don’t enjoy seeing sexual violence, but it seems like it would be white washing to remove it entirely, and I think when it is shown, as unpleasant as it is, I don’t necessarily find it gratuitous. When I saw the Jamie/Cersei scene, I didn’t even think it would be controversial since they seemed so freaky to begin with.

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    59. Wimsey: Well, you agreed with me, so I would say “yes”

      To an extent, flashbacks like prior conversations are covered on the “previously on….” parts.(I know that Skye doesn’t do those, which is a huge disservice to it’s viewers: they really should assume that people have more to do with their lives than memorize TV shows.)If they do flashbacks, then they should show novel material that feeds the story.

      I thought that the one flashback that they did this year to start the season was superb for that in two ways.One, it informed the viewer about why Cersei was doing all the dumb things that she was doing: a desperate attempt to thwart prophecy.Two, it showed us that adult Cersei was little different than child Cersei: and the helped set up the whole “kill the boy/girl, become the man/woman” story.Cersei spectacularly fails to kill her inner girl (i.e., the unthinking spoiled brat with the subtlety of a bison stampede), and she fails spectacularly in her attempts to raise herself to “The Queen” because of it.

      Here is the big kicker: we don’t know what Season’s 6 story is.I am betting that it’s going to be something along the lines of choosing between sides when you either: 1) like members of 2+ sides, or 2) dislike members of all sides.However, that’s just a stab: it could be quite different.

      We do know that they will not do flashbacks just for “world-building.”So, if they are doing (say) young Robert, Ned and someone else, then it will either feed the story or one of the primary plots in someway.However, as I dont’ have a time machine, I don’t know how!

      Haha! Thanks. I am a total newbie on WOTW.

      I want to find out about that scene. That is why I am looking forward to next season.

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    60. Lulu’s Mum:
      Angela,
      There’s probably an official definition (although I don’t remember ever seeing it) but I always go with cover anything at all which can’t be gleaned purely from show episodes which have already aired – better safe than sorry. (I once posted some speculation that wasn’t clearly labelled as such and people were NOT happy, although this was about an episode which had leaked prior to airing. Once I managed to reassure them I was guessing it was ok, but there was 10 minutes or so of “oh thanks lady you’ve ruined a major plot point” anguish and this was in the open chat shortly before that particular episode was due to start.)

      Exactly. I was thinking about it. It is not difficult to use the tags so I went ahead and did it. I’d rather not go through the drama. Just spoiler it and be done. No harm just inconvenient. If you are sullied or don’t care about spoilers, then you can click it.

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    61. Joshua Atreides,
      So keep in mind that I am only a show watcher, though very internet spoiled. I agree with you regarding the Mad King, but the one place I differ is

      in thinking that Tyrion and not Cersei/Jaime is his offspring. That, for me, will lead to a very bittersweet feel for Tyrion once he finds out and he’ll be mentally so divided. That he belongs to two such feuding families – Lannisters and Targaryens. For me, much more than the irony of the dead Tywin left behind with the dwarf as his only son, one of the three central protagonists, Tyrion, knowing he is half Targ and half-Lannister, will be much richer. He genuinely loves Jaime. The show was extra careful in emphasizing that and I think, Tyrion will at some point, have to go up against Jaime. As for the Kingsguard at the ToJ, I used to read many, many, terribly convoluted theories about why so many Kingsguards at the ToJ. The simplest explanation for me is: they were there under the King’s orders. 😀 The Mad King. As to why the Mad King did what he did for the sake of Prophecy, this is where I think a bit of flashback could be good.

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    62. Ginevra: If the world is screaming at you, you should be humble enough to consider the possibility you erred, and you should reassess to see if you did.

      But it’s not the world that is screaming at them. Just a small fraction of book readers who watch the show. Book readers who have no real idea of what’s to come in the last two? three? books. The majority of viewers did not have any issues with the Jaime-Cersei scene. I have watched the Oxford Union video many times, and I particularly love the way they handled that woman’s question. As showrunners they simply cannot please every single viewer.

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    63. Ginevra,

      Kay: But it’s not the world that is screaming at them. Just a small fraction of book readers who watch the show.

      And that’s a key point that showrunners for any series with a fandom strive to keep in mind: the most vocal aspect of the audience typically is very unrepresentative of the overall audience. Again, it’s not just SoI&F: it’s Doctor Who, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc. Joe and Jane Viewer really do not care if something from the latest episode contradicts something in a 1967 Dalek episode! Most fan complaints are variants on this, when you get down to it.

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    64. Kay,

      Yes. The Kingsguard were commanded to protect Lyanna at the ToJ as a directive from the King himself. There is no way that the Kingsguard would split their strength between the Red Keep and the Tower of Joy if the order was given by Rhaegar, the Crown Prince. So they must have been following the Mad King’s orders. Why? There are two possibilities.
      1. Aerys was aware as to what Rhaegar was up to with Lyanna Stark and wholeheartedly supported it.
      2. Aerys recruited Rhaegar in in his madness and utilized him as procurer.
      If you are familiar with the legend of Azor Ahai Reborn, the Warrior of Light then you will know of the story of the forging of the sword Lightbringer. It tool three attempts to forge Lightbringer so it would not break. If we apply this analogy to Aerys II he has had three attempts or three “wives” in which to forge lightbringer.
      1st attempt, oblivious to prophecy but out of his duty as a husband and to his extend his line: Aerys + Queen Rhaell= Rhaegar, Viserys and Dany
      2nd attempt, this time possibly out of sheer lust: Aerys + Joanna Lannister= Cersei and Jaime. Maybe even Tyrion.
      3rd attempt, out of prophecy. Aerys comes to believe he must create a child from Old Valyrian Blood (Targ) and the blood of the First Men (Stark): Aerys + Lyanna Stark= Jon Snow/Targaryen
      As his father’s procurer and willful participant in the Mad King’s “crusade”, Rhaegar is ordered to obtain a wife with the blood of the First Men for his father. So he commissions the Tourney at Harrenhall with Lord Whent (who was among the Kingsguard at the ToJ), bringing all the lords of the realm together. During the Tourney, Rhaegar works his charms on Lyanna, deliberately crowning her the Queen of Love and Beauty. This smittens her and gives her an opportunity to converse with him, an opening for Rhaegar (with the help of Whent perhaps) to abscond away with her person. Knowing the Starks will be an obstacle to fulfilling the prophecy he viciously executes Rickard and Brandon Stark, unleashing Robert’s Rebellion. Lyanna is brought to the Tower of Joy by Rhaegar and the Kingsguard and when the time is right she is visited by Aerys where she is raped and impregnated. As the war winds down, Rhaegar believing fervently in his father’s crusade marches on the Trident to meet with the rebel forces…the rest is history.
      But why the blood of the North? If the myth of the Night’s King being not just the 13th Commander of the Night’s Watch but a Stark as well, who was able to lie with a white walker/Other is true, than Aerys might have believed that the combination of Valyrian and First Men blood might play a factor in the defeat of the Long Night.

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    65. Angela,

      Welcome to WOTW. 🙂 It seems like you already had quite a kickstart in this forum since you stumbled across Wimsey, probably the most eloquent community-member on this website.

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    66. Knight of Storm’s End,

      Your entire argument is based on a premise that we have no reason to think is true: we have

      ample reason to think that the Kingsguard could and would take orders from a crown prince.

      Remember also that we know that

      Rhaegar knew that his father was insane, and that he had finally conceded to others that his father needed to be removed to others. (Admitting that a family member has totally lost it is very difficult: one of the big problems in getting people treated for Alzheimers and other forms of dementia is not just the patient being in denial, but his/her family members, too.) He was not blindly following any crusade of his father’s: we read at least two people in Dragons who recall that Rhaegar realized that after he (Rhaegar) put down Robert’s Rebellion, then he would have to do something about his father.

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    67. Wimsey,

      I think you replied to the wrong person, Wimsey … I didn´t post anything about Rhaegar or ToJ as of now, you probably wanted to reply to someone else. 🙂

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    68. Wimsey,

      Yeah it was me you meant to chew out. 🙂

      Having only read ADWD only once some details have slipped my memory. Especially about Rhaegar wanting to do something about his father afterwards. So Rhaegar may not have been a zealot of a probable AA prophecy that was affecting Aerys’ hold on reality, but that of a loving son unable to deal with his father’s mental illness.
      Now regarding the Kingsguard, there may have been a loyalty schism with one side following Aerys’ orders to the tee and the other towing Rhaegar’s line. I still believe that the Mad King being Jon’s father is probable given the evidence we have thus far, but Rhaegar’s participation (if not he being the sole perpetrator ) in Lyanna’s”abduction” has yet to be clarified for the author.
      I welcome any corrections made on my theory (and it’s a theory more so than an argument but I understand as to what connotation of that word) as it helps me to mold my theory in a more agreeable fashion. And it brings great discourse I think, as opposed to all the infighting this season has wrought.

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    69. Kay: But it’s not the world that is screaming at them. Just a small fraction of book readers who watch the show. Book readers who have no real idea of what’s to come in the last two? three? books. The majority of viewers did not have any issues with the Jaime-Cersei scene. I have watched the Oxford Union video many times, and I particularly love the way they handled that woman’s question. As showrunners they simply cannot please every single viewer.

      My “if” was intentionally an “if” and not a “when” for a reason. I don’t believe that the world has been screaming at D&D, but D&D implied that they hoped they would ignore any and all future controversy, that even if the world were to scream at them, and that includes book readers and non-book readers alike, D&D would hope that they wouldn’t listen. That’s essentially what David was saying when he said that he hoped he’d be able to always ignore controversy.

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    70. Arya and Jon mirror Lyanna/Rhaegar far more than Jon and Dany. Even the age difference is pretty much the same as the one Rhaegar and Lyanna shared(7-8 years). Arya’s an exact copy of Lyanna, and is turning out to be beautiful. History has a way of repeating in westeros, Rhaegar’s son aka Jon falling in love with Arya, who is an exact copy of Lyanna, in personality and looks, is literally like Rhaegar & Lyanna 2.0! And IMHO, I feel it’s going to happen. Romance has its dark side, Arya/Jon’s will be that they grew up as sibling(maybe not for them, but for the readers!) But they’re becoming 2 different people completely; Jon is currently dealing with death, I doubt he’ll be the same person once he comes back, and guess which character has the ‘death’ vibe going on in her story? Yup, Arya.

      As for, Jon and Sansa? Sorry, they aren’t even in the race; ”I have no need of blushing maidens looking to be protected, but I will take as many spearwives as will come.” “A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.” No groundwork whatsoever laid for them. Sansa has a thing for Sandor.

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    71. Joshua Atreides,

      We have no reason to think that

      Lyanna ever even met Aerys or that she evr was even in Kings Landing, or that Aerys ever knew exactly what was happening between Rhaegar and Lyanna. We do know that Aerys was very paranoid and worried that Rhaegar was seeking to overthrow him; that argues against any close collaboration between the two.

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    72. My theory on Rhaegar is that he met Lyanna because she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. In Meera’s story to Bran, Aerys sent Rhaegar to go and look for the mystery knight, but apparently he only ever found his shield, hanging in a tree (a Weirwood tree?). He could have found her, but she possibly convinced him not to tell who the mystery knight was and Rhaegar obliged. He kept her secret, but crowned her Queen of love and beauty instead, to honour her bravery (according to some), as a nod to her taking part in the lists. After the tournament, Lyanna went to go and stay with the Whents. We are told that Rhaegar was a frequent guest of the Whents. Thus they probably interacted and fell in love at Harrenhal before eloping.

      In a Jaimie POV chapter, Rhaegar’s final words to Jaimie is also quite telling. He tells Jaimie to stay behind and take care of his family (why not the other members of the Kingsguard?). He also said something about many things that would change once he returns from battle, and that there was no point in having regrets over “paths never taken,” if I remember correctly. I have always taken this to mean that he was referring to that fact that he regretted not having removed his father form the IT earlier, as Aerys was letting the realm disintergrate and responsible for (if indirectly) starting the rebellion. Afterall, he murdered the father and brother of the woman he was purportedly in love with.

      On a side note, maybe Rhaegar even gave Lyanna back Tohrren’s crown that Aegon took 300 years ago. I it might be in her crypt where Ned put, but this is just crack-pot.

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    73. Morna the Witch: I have always taken this to mean that he was referring to that fact that he regretted not having removed his father form the IT earlier, as Aerys was letting the realm disintergrate and responsible for (if indirectly) starting the rebellion.

      Connigton also recounts that, by the end, even Rhaegar could see that Aerys was nuts. Again, admitting to yourself that a parent has totally lost it is not an easy thing to do: that Rhaegar was slow to acknowledge what was obvious to everyone else is just normal human behavior.

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    74. Ravyn,

      Do you really think D and D care about what the virgin losers mouth around the web.hahaha,that’s so sweet of themselves to think they have that much power . Alex Graves didn’t come back because he said he was burned up or probably like Taylor some schedule thing,why did you suddenly jump to the conclusion that the virgin losers who complained about him was the cause of him not returning ?

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    75. Wimsey,

      So you know for a fact that Aerys didn’t visit Lyanna when she was in the ToJ? Because there are gaps to fill in, and it’s not implausible that Rhaegar under his father’s orders brought Lyanna to the ToJ. When did I mention that Lyanna met Aerys? If Aerys needs the blood of the First Men than the Stark daughter would be the best option. It doesn’t matter what she looked like.

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    76. House Ray,

      Melisandre has a lot of work to do! That said, he ain’t dead. It was probably rock salt used as a warning. There are numerous stills of Farrell with McAdams, Kitsch and co from scenes that haven’t aired yet. Unless it was a cut scene.

      The show needs more Dan Dorrity. And I’m digging McAdams’ Antigone. Vaughn is improving as well.

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    77. brashcandy:
      As for, Jon and Sansa? Sorry, they aren’t even in the race; ”I have no need of blushing maidens looking to be protected, but I will take as many spearwives as will come.” “A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.” No groundwork whatsoever laid for them. Sansa has a thing for Sandor.

      LOL, Sansa having a thing for Sandor in no way precludes a Jon/Sansa endgame. There’s plenty of evidence for a Jon/Sansa endgame:

      -Jon=king, Sansa=queen foreshadowing
      -Sansa praying for “a hero” to strike off Janos Slynt’s head, and Jon doing just that in ADWD
      -Sansa’s sympathy towards bastards and wishing she could see Jon again
      -Jon thinking of Sansa singing while she brushed out Lady’s hair paired with “You know nothing, Jon Snow”
      -lack of a close sisterly/brotherly bond, possibly to make the relationship less icky
      -outline originally had a Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle, with Tyrion falling in love with Arya – it seems possible that Sansa’s been swapped in for Arya

      Also, Kit Harington “joked” about Jon’s thing for redheads. Maybe he knows something we don’t? 😉

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    78. Joshua Atreides,

      Yeah, I know about the Azor Ahai prophecy, about the swords tempered unsuccessfully in water, in a lion’s heart, and the final one successfully in his wife’s breast (Lightbringer).

      By the way, Show told us, via Littlefinger to Sansa, that Aerys, Rhaegar, Lyanna along with practically everyone else, was at the Harenhall tourney.

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    79. House Ray,

      TD S2ep2 spoiler thoughts below:

      OT: Geez…True Detective pulled an “FTW” on the main character in the second episode! Total setup. I must admit it took a second viewing to finally get into TD last week. This week was better but man…that ending! Ughh! This season of TD may get really good as the female detective takes the lead. Lots of political/business/psychological exposition drags it though.

      I’m glad TD is there to fill the void. I just can’t think about GoT S6 yet. Too frickin’ conflicted about the way S5 concluded (similar to how I felt after reading ADwD, I guess). I don’t even know what to look forward to in S6. Weird.

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    80. Kay,

      Oh that’s right, so Aerys was at the Tourney in the TVuniverse. Is this just the dialogue namedropping, or is it a setup for

      Aerys organizing the kidnapping?

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    81. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I think with the political exposition Pizzicato is trying to emulate The Wire or some expansive modern Neo Noir. It’s this complexity that makes season 2 or True Detective less immersive than season 1. In season 1 we are in Cohle’s headspace and Marty’s to an extent. Whereas in this series we have to decide which characters to invest in.

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    82. Joshua Atreides,

      More TD OT thoughts:

      I think it is intriguing but it takes me two viewings to connect the dots regarding the LA metroline business & investment stuff. Love the highway and industrial metaphors representing the many complex layers and ugly connections (?). That is so LA. I realize NP (I love his book, Galveston) is doing the writing like he did last season, but this season feels like a novelist has written the screenplay rather than a screenwriter writing the screenplay. In any case, it seems to be building nicely. I think Vince Vaughn (Frank) is stiff though. Poor Ray! Who saw that coming?

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    83. Ginevra,

      We’ll see, but I will remain a bit sceptical about this. Just in case. hahaha You know Starks and their luck.

      Kay:

      The parallels were really strong this season till the end. That’s when the parallel was shattered for me. Tyrion joined Daeny. None for Jon. Daeny is getting more people around her, Jon less. Drogon was mostly away, but kept an eye on Mom (ep. 2) and came at a time of need (ep. 9). No Ghost for Jon, who actually turned up to defend Gilly and Sam at one point! So in my show-watching mind, Jon’s and Daeny’s stories will diverge in the last 2 seasons.

      They shared a lot parallels this or in any of the previous seasons. Not everything in their storyline needs to be parallel.

      Assassination attempts on both, both lost wise advisor(Aemon, Ser Barristan), both seeking advise from the people and go with their instincts (Aemon and Missandei/Daario), both gain unexpected ally (Tyrion and Tormund), both trying to go against the long written rules.Night’s Watch and widlings … slavers.Both executed people in this season Mossandor and Jano Slynt (Jon swing the sword,Dany ordered it) and it goes on and on.

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    84. Congrats to Maisie! I would like to see Alan Taylor return to ‘Game Of Thrones”. Then again I would also like to see Tim Van Patten return, and most definitely Neil Marshall. I am glad Jeremy Podeswa is coming back in Season 6!

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    85. Wimsey: To an extent, flashbacks like prior conversations are covered on the “previously on….” parts. (I know that Skye doesn’t do those, which is a huge disservice to it’s viewers: they really should assume that people have more to do with their lives than memorize TV shows

      I think we’ve had this conversation before but I disagree. “previously on…” segments do a disservice to viewers by ham-fistedly sign-posting what’s about to come.

      Of course I accept that the vast majority of GoT viewers are not as engaged as you or I and do not keep track of all the minor characters or watch episodes multiple times or remember all the details of previous episodes. That’s fine. But I have been that ‘casual’ viewer on many other programmes – specifically I’m thinking of those programmes (often HBO) with layered plots and multiple characters and scripts that don’t feed the audience with a spoon… The Wire and The Sopranos are good examples. And I would have hated “previously on…” on those.

      I was invested enough in the programmes to engage brain and pick up as much as I could. I’m quite sure I didn’t always get every last detail. I’m sure I sometimes mixed characters up or didn’t get the significance of every plot. But both were incredibly rewarding to watch; and a HUGE element of that was the element of surprise. Which would have been completely undermined by “previously on…” spoon-feeding me what is about to come. You need to give the viewer some credit; trust in your own writing and trust they are invested enough to come on the journey with you. “previously on…” to me is a TV programme’s way of saying “we don’t trust you to remember or think for yourself..”

      I know it’s not a big issue (and hey you can just forward through them right), but it is a bug-bear of mine and although I don’t give Sky credit for much else, I will give them a lot of credit for not including these.

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    86. Ross,

      I think HBO and to an extent Benioff and Weiss are afraid to take risks with this series because of this “casual audience”. If they treated all their demographics like those who watched The Wire for example Game of Thrones would be an even greater series than it already is.
      Would the show be as popular with all the subtleties of the novels included? Or would it be cancelled after two seasons?

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    87. A question if anyone knows: who exactly would be Tommen’s heir if Myrcella, Stannis and Shireen are all dead?

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    88. LordDavos:
      A question if anyone knows: who exactly would be Tommen’s heir if Myrcella, Stannis and Shireen are all dead?

      My best guess..

      If Margaery were to get pregnant by Tommen ( Show!Tommen as Book!Tommen isn’t yet old enough) then any of their male children would be the heir (they’d most likely ignore the fact that Tommen has no Baratheon blood). Since the Targs have been disinherited, the Great Council would probably meet to choose a new bloodline if Tommen dies without issue. They could I suppose theoretically invite any living male Targ back of course, or even Dany if they decide to go female.

      Gendry of course is a possibility as a royal bastard but there could be contention over whether he really is Robert’s son ( and of course he is still rowin’ ).

      Even Tarth has a very tenuous claim apparently through some Targ blood ( GRRM said this allegedly) – so King Selwyn or Queen Brienne anyone 😉

      Failing that and if the shit goes down – whoever wins the throne by conquest.

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    89. M,

      Since when has it been foreshadowed for Sansa to be a queen?? It’s the exact opposite. Arya has been foreshadowed to be a queen by Ned. “You will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princesses and lords.” He said that when Sansa was actually the one who was betrothed to the prince, the author is obviously making a point here. Sansa doesn’t even want to marry anymore. It’s funny that people think characters who think of each other for 4-5 times are going to end up together than the ones who were going to fall in love in the original outline, and think of each other always in all the books, Jon and Arya’s is THE relationship in the books, it has been highlighted way too much for it not to be. Also, you don’t think about kissing someone when you don’t have any feelings towards that person. GRRM confirmed he played around with Sansa/Sandor.

      Sansa showed sympathy for bastards only after she was put in the same place as them. Of course she would want to see Jon again, he’s the only brother she thinks she has left. While he didn’t even care to spare her a thought after hearing about her marriage to Tyrion. ‘You know nothing, Jon Snow.’ is him thinking about Ygritte. Arya was the one he was ready to break his vows for. ‘Stick ’em with the pointy end.’ She was in his thoughts when he was getting stabbed.

      Lack of bro/sis bond will make them suddenly okay with this? LMAO. He refers to Sansa as his SISTER, while with Arya he thinks whether she’s his sister anymore, or was she ever. His arc in adwd was heavily about saving Arya. And why would GRRM swap Sansa with Arya? Tyrion never fell in love with Sansa. He was going to cross the narrow sea aka where he is now aka where Arya is now aka the free cities, and fall in love with Arya But I doubt Tyrion/Arya will ever happen. But Jon/Arya seem to be on the table in the books, IMHO.

      Kit Harington is proof for nothing. Jon doesn’t have a thing for redheads, he has a thing for sassy heroines who can fight aka Ygritte/Val. Guess who they are similar to. He even compares Ygritte to Arya many times.

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    90. Arya Havin’ a larf?,

      Even the Baratheon line would have accepted a female heir if no male heirs in that immediate family were alive, like the current Queen of England. Myrcella would have been after Tommen, had she survived, or at least that’s what the books implied. But it was just that the Targaryens went strictly by birth order without considering gender (because dragons are genderless?) that the Dornish questioned why Myrcella wasn’t crowned ahead of Tommen.

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    91. brashcandy,

      Jon/Arya will never happen in the show or in the books.It was his original idea, but that’s in the past.That’s why he introduced Gendry and Ygritte to the story.So he kept it some way.
      I don’t want probably my favourite relationship from the books turned into romantic one.They grew up as brother/sister and just imagine Kit and Maisie.Since books and show will be very similair in key aspects of the story.Sorry no.

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    92. Shipping wars? Is this what Game of Thrones has been reduced to? We don’t have strong evidence of any relationships in this series, peeps, so George could go every which way but loose.

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    93. Joshua Atreides,

      The books state that

      Harrenhal was one of the only times that Aerys left Kings Landing in his later year. So, yes, we pretty much know that Aerys never went to the Tower of Joy.

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    94. Ginevra,

      Pretty much everything Ginevra said. We don´t know which characters will be the most important in WOW, we don´t know if there will be some “deus ex machina”, we don´t know what Daenerys is effectively up to, we don´t know what will happen to Euron and Victarion, we don´t know what even triggered the appearance of the Others again, we don´t know their agenda, we don´t know what will happen to the NW; the point is, we don´t really know anything, we can guess, sometimes these are more educated guesses, sometimes quite vague stretches of plotpoints, but in the end it is all the same: we have no idea what will happen, GRRM can completely mess with us and we wouldn´t even be aware of it. We might think that there is strong evidence for this theory as of now, only to realize in the end that all of it actually served to bring across an whole other point. Evidence can be misleading, however obvious it seems initially. 🙂

      …It could even be someone like Edric Storm/Gendry ending up on the Iron Throne or the Iron Throne will cease to exist or lose it´s significance gradually. The point is, besides a few corner marks and a couple theories that make more sense than others, we are oblivious to what will come in WOW and thus even more in terms of GoT, which doesn´t even need to be completely faithful to the books…

      So to make a conclusion: GoT and ASOIAF is all about the journey, the twists, machinations and ultimately the bonds between characters. There will be wars, yes, but putting the strongest focus on which wars are to come and reducing characters achess-figures in those wars doesn´t really hit the point… They are the focus of the story, the wars revolve around them, not the opposite. So “shipping wars”, like Ginevra said so accurately, should be not be the focus of all of this in the end.

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    95. Ginevra,

      Not shipping wars really. I only ship Night’s Watch members involved in Jon’s death with Ghost, Wun Wun or White Walkers. If you know what I mean.

      It’s just Jon/Arya lovely brother/sister just can’t be (at least in my mind) turned into romantic/incest one. There is strong evidence on Jon/Dany, but I don’t ship them.It’s just that evidence is there and I’m only stating the obvious.Obviously there is much more to Game Of Thrones than that.

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    96. Geralt of Rivia:
      brashcandy,

      Jon/Arya will never happen in the show or in the books.It was his original idea, but that’s in the past.That’s why he introduced Gendry and Ygritte to the story.So he kept it some way.
      I don’t want probably my favourite relationship from the books turned into romantic one.They grew up as brother/sister and just imagine Kit and Maisie.Since books and show will be very similair in key aspects of the story.Sorry no.

      Says who? You? Since when has GRRM cared about what the fans want. He has a story to write, it’s foreshadowing and the books I’m talking about. You can’t exclude possibilities just because you don’t want them to happen, and then present them as facts. I don’t think Jon will get with either starks girls on the show. I’m talking about ASOIAF that there has been some foreshadowing. Sorry for breathing, jeez.

      The show and the books will have the same endgame, but that doesn’t mean it’ll go there in the same direction. The books are the books, and the show is the show. I think even the author is tired of repeating that.

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    97. Ross: I have been that ‘casual’ viewer on many other programmes – specifically I’m thinking of those programmes (often HBO) with layered plots and multiple characters and scripts that don’t feed the audience with a spoon… The Wire and The Sopranos are good examples. And I would have hated “previously on…” on those.

      I find those invaluable on other Series programs that I watch. I have far too much to do with my life to remember small details about 99% of the TV shows that I watch. I found that to be really true when watching the most recent House of Cards: much as I like the show, I couldn’t even remember the names of most of the supporting cast or what they were supposed to be as people. The flashbacks prepped me ahead of time.

      Arya Havin’ a larf?: Gendry of course is a possibility as a royal bastard but there could be contention over whether he really is Robert’s son ( and of course he is still rowin’ ).

      The Baratheons have been around for a long time. There would be Baratheon cousins and members of the other Great Houses who were descended from Baratheon daughters also would be in line for the Throne. All of those would get priority over a bastard if only because their society believes that bastards are innately inferior to “true borns.”

      The fact that GRRM has not told us who the “Harry the Heir” equivalent for Tommen is tells us that he has not been planning for this to be an issue. (Indeed, good old Cersei no doubt would have these people eliminated in “subtle and cunning” plans that would be obvious to pretty much everyone!)

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    98. Ginevra: Shipping wars?

      I think that it’s impossible to avoid those, sometimes!

      brashcandy: Since when has GRRM cared about what the fans want. He has a story to write, it’s foreshadowing and the books I’m talking about. You can’t exclude possibilities just because you don’t want them to happen, and then present them as facts.

      Ah, but what is a fact is that GRRM initially had this idea in mind but then discarded it. So, what “foreshadowing” you think you’ve read probably are vestiges of that. For myself, I see no foreshadowing: only that Jon and Arya were both (to some degree) similarly “different” from their siblings and thus reasonably close. I think that this might be a hint of sorts (not true foreshadowing, but not a proper clue, either) that Jon is Lyanna’s son, not Ned’s: Jon is “naturally” close to the one who is most similar in looks and nature to his mother.

      If there is any foreshadowing for Arya’s romantic future, then it is with Gendry: Robert told Ned that he had a son and Ned had a daughter, so let’s unite their houses. Obviously Robert was referring to Joffery and Sansa, but Joffery wasn’t his son, and Sansa was much more Caitlyn’s daughter than Ned’s daughter; Gendry actually is Robert’s son and Arya is much more a Stark daughter than is Sansa. So, Robert’s request will (strictly speaking) come true, like all good foreshadowing does: and like all good foreshadowing, the fulfillment will be completely ironic.

      However, when GRRM wrote that, he still was planning that the series would end 6-7 years in the future, when Arya would be a woman (by Westerosi standards) rather than a girl. So, that might have gotten discarded along the way. (Of course, given that Westeros will consider Arya a woman at menarche, she still might be a woman at the end of the series: isn’t she 12 or 13 in the books by now?)

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    99. Wimsey: I find those invaluable on other Series programs that I watch. I have far too much to do with my life to remember small details about 99% of the TV shows that I watch

      Fair enough, it’s personal preference at the end of the day. I don’t watch much TV, so personally I find it quite easy to recall details from the few programmes that I do watch.

      Joshua Atreides: I think HBO and to an extent Benioff and Weiss are afraid to take risks with this series because of this “casual audience”. If they treated all their demographics like those who watched The Wire for example Game of Thrones would be an even greater series than it already is.

      I think that’s a fair comment. And my only real complaint about season 5 was its lack of subtlety; more so than previous seasons, although it’s a hard thing to measure.

      There is a line where foreshadowing becomes telegraphing (Olly….); I felt it the programme crossed that line a few times this season. I still loved it of course; but it definitely felt like the storytelling was more ‘obvious’ in places than in previous seasons.

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    100. brashcandy,

      Ok. Still it’s a bit weird even in the books for them to be romanticly involved. Arya will always be his little sister and again hopefully GRRM will not turn this into romantic one.Why it can’t be just family love between them? Just two characters who cares about one another,without any romantic feelings between them.

      Which foreshadowing exactly? Just out of curiosity.

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    101. Wimsey,

      Agreed. Gendry is also a possibility for Arya. But she hasn’t mentioned him at all in her recent thoughts, while Jon is always there in her thought ”She wondered if he would still call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore.” Jaime was suppose to be king in the original outline and there was some foreshadowing for it in the first book, but since GRRM dropped that idea there’s no foreshadowing for it in the recent books, but with Arya/Jon there thoughts have only gotten stronger. Also Jon’s whole adwd arc revolved around Arya. ”What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?” Also ‘I want my bride back x3” was what was going in Jon’s head when he decided to march to winterfell, I find that line very shady. I’m not sure from whose thoughts it is from.

      GRRM said Gendry and Arya have different destinies or something like that about them. Sandor/Sansa he confirmed, but he has never confirmed anything about the former. Of course we should take all of it with a grain of salt since we all could be reading everything wrong xD

      She’s probably 12 by the end of ADWD. Also I don’t think GRRM will care about the age if he wants to go there with Arya/Jon, he wrote the mercy chapter despite her age.

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    102. Joshua Atreides,

      The demographics for most of the cable tv series overlap heavily. Chances are good that most of the Wire audience is watching Thrones: but as Thrones has a much bigger overall audience, it is getting additional viewers, too.

      Ross,
      To be honest, the only things I watch are TV series like Thrones and Doctor Who. However, that does nothing to reduce the competition for memory that the rest of life provides me! (I cannot remember anything on last year’s Doctor Who at this point: it did not grab me so I have not thought about it since then.)

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    103. Geralt of Rivia:
      Ginevra,
      Not shipping wars really. I only ship Night’s Watch members involved in Jon’s death with Ghost, Wun Wun or White Walkers. If you know what I mean.

      So bestiality, giantality, and otherality. Gotcha. Seriously, I’m picking up what you’re putting down.

      It’s just Jon/Arya lovely brother/sister just can’t be (at least in my mind) turned into romantic/incest one. There is strong evidence on Jon/Dany, but I don’t ship them.It’s just that evidence is there and I’m only stating the obvious.Obviously there is much more to Game Of Thrones than that.

      Right. Because GRRM would never write about incest. Never, never, never.

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    104. Hodor’s Bastard:
      Joshua Atreides,

      More TD OT thoughts:

      Jury’s still out for me after the second episode. I miss Louisiana!

      Wimsey:

      The Baratheons have been around for a long time.There would be Baratheon cousins and members of the other Great Houses who were descended from Baratheon daughters also would be in line for the Throne.All of those would get priority over a bastard if only because their society believes that bastards are innately inferior to “true borns.”

      The fact that GRRM has not told us who the “Harry the Heir” equivalent for Tommen is tells us that he has not been planning for this to be an issue.(Indeed, good old Cersei no doubt would have these people eliminated in “subtle and cunning” plans that would be obvious to pretty much everyone!)

      For sure but we can only go on what we know and the characters GRRM has already introduced, though I’m certain that he will bring in at least 500 new ones for TWOW!

      I think Gendry has most likely served his purpose as far as the meat of the (book) story goes, and he’s content to smith at that inn or row his way around the world (show).

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    105. Someone pointed out on another board that all the endgame pairings, at least the new ones, have to start getting set up pretty soon in the show–Jon/Ygritte took 1.5 seasons to set up–and the only one near enough to Jon for there to be any setup of the kind is Sansa. The reason Outline Arya/Jon could even be a thing is that Arya was north like Jon was. Dany’s stuck in Essos; Arya’s still stuck with the FM and likely to be so for the next little while. TV Sansa’s north and likely to head Jon’s way; that tidbit Ramsay dropped about Jon being Lord Commander was included for a reason, I’d imagine. Dany and Arya can’t romance Jon if they’re on the other side of the world and likely to remain so for most of or even all of Season 6. Otherwise, we get a scenario like this:

      Jon: Hey.
      Dany/Arya: Hey.
      Jon: So…I’m your nephew/cousin.
      Dany/Arya: HOT.
      Jon: Marry me.
      Dany/Arya: I thought you’d never ask.

      Also, the outline isn’t much of a basis for argument when it comes to Sansa’s fate, since we’re already off-outline when it comes to Sansa: it seemed to me that the outline strongly hinted that she dies…unless Sansa continues to be doomed in the book/show, and there’s plenty of support for that possibility, in which case she won’t wind up with anyone.

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    106. Ginevra:
      Right.Because GRRM would never write about incest.Never, never, never.

      Not to mention the Stark family tree contained near-Targaryen levels of intermarriage: not brother/sister, but a lot of uncle/niece and cousin/cousin. Could be setting up a cousin/cousin Stark pairing (although that doesn’t really weigh in favour of Arya vs. Sansa). Also, the only other Sansa Stark recorded in the Stark family tree, Rickon’s daughter, married her father’s half-brother, a “Jonnel” Stark.

      There are plenty of arguments against both Jon/Arya and Jon/Sansa, but “GRRM would never do it because he hates writing incest pairings” is not one of them.

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    107. To the powers that be at TWOW,

      The post season 5 hangover is coming on harsh and strong. It is very hard to adjust from having daily content to maybe weekly. A suggestion perhaps. Could TWOW site introduce an off season post to be featured every week? An interesting suggestion would be a character a week analysis, focusing on the differences between book and show counterparts. Another option alternatively, would be to compare and contrast characters from the book/show to their possible real world inspirations. These or some other idea would help the fans navigate their way through the long night and provide some sort of distraction from the lack of GOTness. The sooner the better. Because winter is coming in a couple of months.

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    108. M,

      In the show, Jon won’t get with either stark girls I feel. That’s why they had the ‘I still love her’ line in the show about Ygritte. If it happens, I agree in the show, it’ll be with Sansa. But if it happens in the books, it’ll most likely be with Arya.

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    109. Knight of Storm’s End:
      Angela,

      Welcome to WOTW. It seems like youalready had quite a kickstart in this forum since you stumbled across Wimsey, probably the most eloquent community-member on this website.

      Thanks. 🙂

      We had an interesting discussion about flashbacks.

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    110. Wimsey,

      Fair enough. I declare my theory officially quashed. I won’t bring it up again.

      That said, in regard to GoT’s demographics I believe that because there is a greater audience than other HBO series like The Wire, Rome or Deadwood, the outcry about various depictions of violence and misogyny in these shows don’t bring about a larger response as opposed to a very popular Adult fantasy series. This also supports my theory that the show is a condensed (as opposed to “dumbed down” ) presentation of the novels because it caters to a broader audience.

      Or maybe because of the rise of social media in the past decade and the advent of the Social Justice Warrior culture/outrage culture, people would attack shows like the Wire from the past for the same things they attack Game of Thrones.

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    111. brashcandy:
      M,
      In the show, Jon won’t get with either stark girls I feel. That’s why they had the ‘I still love her’ line in the show about Ygritte. If it happens, I agree in the show, it’ll be with Sansa. But if it happens in the books, it’ll most likely be with Arya.

      If Sansa and Arya were tertiary characters, X/Arya endgame pairing in the books could easily turn into X/Sansa endgame pairing in the show. As it is, though, they’re both first-tier characters, and I doubt that their endgames would be considered interchangeable. If it’s Jon/Arya in the books, it will be Jon/Arya in the show, and likewise for Jon/Sansa.

      Furthermore, if Jon is the endgame king–and I don’t see anything in Season 5 that changed my mind on that score–whoever his endgame mate will be is not just a matter of their love lives, as she would likely be the endgame queen. Arya winding up as queen would not at all be the same as Sansa winding up as queen.

      As for the incest angle, I don’t know what would be psychologically weirder: Jon winding up with the woman who’s the spitting image of the stepmother he so resents and the biological mother of those he always saw as siblings, or winding up with the woman who’s the spitting image of his biological mother in looks and in temperament. Freud would have a field day with that shit.

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    112. Hodor’s Bastard,

      Total set-up indeed :P!

      ]Wait, are you referring to “the only way I will take a vacation is if I croak”? Normally one wouldn’t think of taking that at face value.

      Arya Havin’ a larf?, and here I was looking forward to your reaction about smoking an e-cig being too much like “sucking a robot’s dick”. Whole car discussion was classic TD. It would have fit perfectly in season 1, in my opinion.

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    113. So, Resurrected Azor Ahai Jon Snow and Faceless Woman Arya Stark as a couple. Okay, let’s ship it. 😉

      He will fulfill the AA prophecy with Faceless Woman Arya Stark. She will change her face to Nissa Nissa and he will stab her, in the heart, with Longclaw. It will become Lightbringer. Then, Resurrected Azor Ahai Jon Snow will defeat the Night King. The Long Night will end. Everyone lives happily ever after!!!

      Yay! I’m kidding.

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    114. Im super confused coming into this thread as I have not kept up with the comments ….

      However, I am loving all the references to Jon as though he will be back <3
      That makes me happy… LOL

      Edit: Also, I never imagined Jon would get with one of his “sisters”.. Dany maybe, but that would be too cliché for GRRM.

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    115. M:

      As for the incest angle, I don’t know what would be psychologically weirder: Jon winding up with the woman who’s the spitting image of the stepmother he so resents and the biological mother of those he always saw as siblings, or winding up with the woman who’s the spitting image of his biological mother in looks and in temperament. Freud would have a field day with that shit.

      Both are extremely weird. Either way he will end up even more messed up. That is saying something because we are talking about Starks. They have set a very high bar.

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    116. Tormund’s Woman:
      Hodor’s Bastard,

      Total set-up indeed :P!

      Arya Havin’ a larf?, and here I was looking forward to your reaction about smoking an e-cig being too much like “sucking a robot’s dick”. Whole car discussion was classic TD. It would have fit perfectly in season 1, in my opinion.

      Was a bit bored by the episode TBH, kept getting distracted and can’t say I’m impressed at all by CF and RM. I don’t know Vince Vaughan at all but I think I like him the most which is odd since a lot of people seem to dislike him or think he’s not right for this kind of show.

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    117. M: If Sansa and Arya were tertiary characters, X/Arya endgame pairing in the books could easily turn into X/Sansa endgame pairing in the show. As it is, though, they’re both first-tier characters, and I doubt that their endgames would be considered interchangeable. If it’s Jon/Arya in the books, it will be Jon/Arya in the show, and likewise for Jon/Sansa.

      Furthermore, if Jon is the endgame king–and I don’t see anything in Season 5 that changed my mind on that score–whoever his endgame mate will be is not just a matter of their love lives, as she would likely be the endgame queen. Arya winding up as queen would not at all be the same as Sansa winding up as queen.

      As for the incest angle, I don’t know what would be psychologically weirder: Jon winding up with the woman who’s the spitting image of the stepmother he so resents and the biological mother of those he always saw as siblings, or winding up with the woman who’s the spitting image of his biological mother in looks and in temperament. Freud would have a field day with that shit.

      Jon won’t end up as king, IMHO. I do think it’ll be easier to change the girl he falls for in the show, since they didn’t even bother highlighting Jon and Arya’s relationship in the show. If they can have Sansa instead of Jeyne winding up in Winterfell and be raped, when in the books, she’s at the Vale and totally away from this nonsense, then I won’t put it behind them to change this. I don’t think they’re gonna go with Jon and Arya in the show, frankly. While in the books, GRRM has been building their relationship since book 1, not something that just suddenly comes out of the blue, or they only mention each other 2-3 times. In twow, it’s completely possible for Arya to go to the wall, after she hears about his death. If GRRM wants it, he’ll make a way. And Arya/Jon have had more build up than any female, Jon has been paired with by fanfic writers. The kind of emotional reaction Jon/Arya will get if they get together in the books won’t be followed by any pairing.

      They’ll both be weird, but hey, that’s ASOIAF. We have a 15-16 years old running away with a 22-23 years old, Dany falling in love with a rapist and a man who is double her age, compared to that, J/A seem less on the ‘dark’ side.

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    118. Joshua Atreides: This also supports my theory that the show is a condensed (as opposed to “dumbed down” ) presentation of the novels because it caters to a broader audience.

      Much of is also streamlining to make it coherent storytelling on television. How you want to tell Story X and Plots A-D on TV often is very different from how you want to deliver the same Story X and Plots A-D on page. What works in one medium often does not work or is even counterproductive in the other.

      The analogy I always use is a Great White Shark and a Tyrannosaurus rex. Both tell very similar ecological “stories” but have to do it very differently because one is marine and the other is terrestrial. Book Screen is much the same.

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    119. Ginevra,

      As I’m thinking about this “It will never happen in the books or show.” I should probably change this one a little bit. My mistake. It’s George after all.I should probably consider this a possibility in the books (thanks to brashcandy link), but sure as hell hope that’s not the way forward for them. Funny thing is…if the endgame is truly Jon/Arya in the books, as someone mentioned here,same should be in the show.

      brashcandy,

      Thanks for the link. I don’t want this to happen, but yeah it’s interesting. There are hints to it.

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    120. brashcandy: Jon won’t end up as king, IMHO. I do think it’ll be easier to change the girl he falls for in the show, since they didn’t even bother highlighting Jon and Arya’s relationship in the show. If they can have Sansa instead of Jeyne winding up in Winterfell and be raped, when in the books, she’s at the Vale and totally away from this nonsense, then I won’t put it behind them to change this. I don’t think they’re gonna go with Jon and Arya in the show, frankly. While in the books, GRRM has been building their relationship since book 1, not something that just suddenly comes out of the blue, or they only mention each other 2-3 times. In twow, it’s completely possible for Arya to go to the wall, after she hears about his death. If GRRM wants it, he’ll make a way. And Arya/Jon have had more build up than any female, Jon has been paired with by fanfic writers. The kind of emotional reaction Jon/Arya will get if they get together in the books won’t be followed by any pairing.

      There’s a big difference between a major character being parachuted into a book-only minor character’s storyline in the show as a filler arc and a major TV/book character’s endgame being given to another major TV/book character. Jaime wound up getting parachuted into the Dorne storyline, but that doesn’t mean that the writers will have Tyrion hook up with Brienne or what have you.

      I do agree that Jon/Arya in the show is unlikely, but if Jon/Arya is an endgame pairing in the books, I have no doubt it will be so in the show as well.

      After Season 5, assuming he comes back, it seems pretty clear, to me at least, that Jon will be king at the end of the series.

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    121. M,

      I’m going to have to disagree here. Jon/Arya on the show seem very unlikely to happen, while in the books, they seem very likely. Jon’s relationship with either of the stark sisters will be out of the blue in the show, cuz there is no build up, whatsoever. And they’re getting close to the ending(suppose to be S7, right?) either they’ll change the girl he falls for, or they’ll keep Ygritte as his one true love or whatever.. maybe they might go there with J/A in the show, but seems unlikely, because if they do fall in love it’ll be based on their feelings for each other, not some political stuff, I feel. So those feelings would need build up. GRRM said D&D know the endgame, but not all of it. So, stuff like this can be changed. I doubt they know who’s going to fall for whom.. just about the more important stuff, who will win the battle of dawn, who’ll die, who’ll survive, etcetera, etcetera. I may be wrong, but this is D&D, they made Stannis burn Shireen, which may not exactly be the same in the book, they showed the rape of a major character which has not happened in the book, 2 major characters meeting, which might not happen in the books the same way.

      Jon will die. Arya will meet the same fate, I feel.

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    122. Geralt of Rivia: unny thing is…if the endgame is truly Jon/Arya in the books, as someone mentioned here,same should be in the show.

      I think that GRRM went a different route a long time ago. In that scenario, Tyrion also was in love with Arya. This got transplanted to Tyrion being in love with Shae and marrying Sansa. Tyrion and Arya also were at the Wall or north of it; now, Tyrion and Arya both are in Essos.

      That written, I really doubt that GRRM is going to return to Tyrion falling for Arya and vying with Jon for her. My guess is that Jon, Tyrion and Arya will make similar contributions to the final story that GRRM always intended: but he went a different path before he published the first book.

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    123. M,

      Why should there be a king at all? Maybe the monarchy will get abolished and will be replaced by the United Free Republics of Westeros.

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    124. goodkinghenry:
      M,

      Why should there be a king at all? Maybe the monarchy will get abolished and will be replaced by the United Free Republics of Westeros.

      It will be a yet to be introduced character, Rufus T. Firefly singing:

      “The last man nearly ruined this place, he didn’t know what to do with it.
      If you think this country’s bad off now, just wait ’til I get through with it.”

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    125. goodkinghenry:
      M,

      Why should there be a king at all? Maybe the monarchy will get abolished and will be replaced by the United Free Republics of Westeros.

      GRRM has stated more than once that he knows who will be sitting on the Iron Throne at the end. I believe D&D have said the same thing. This implies that there will be a person on the throne at the end, and as of right now, Jon looks to me like the only likely candidate.

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    126. Pretty interesting that a good month after the finale Emilia Clarke is trending again, just for repeating what she said about Jon Snow having a ’50/50′ chance of being revived next season (based on her personal beliefs, not any inside knowledge). Guys, our show is big.

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    127. brashcandy:
      M,

      I’m going to have to disagree here. Jon/Arya on the show seem very unlikely to happen, while in the books, they seem very likely.Jon’s relationship with either of the stark sisters will be out of the blue in the show, cuz there is no build up, whatsoever. And they’re getting close to the ending(suppose to be S7, right?) either they’ll change the girl he falls for, or they’ll keep Ygritte as his one true love or whatever.. maybe they might go there with J/A in the show, but seems unlikely, because if they do fall in love it’ll be based on their feelings for each other, not some political stuff, I feel. So those feelings would need build up. GRRM said D&D know the endgame, but not all of it. So, stuff like this can be changed. I doubt they know who’s going to fall for whom.. just about the more important stuff, who will win the battle of dawn, who’ll die, who’ll survive, etcetera, etcetera. I may be wrong, but this is D&D, they made Stannis burn Shireen, which may not exactly be the same in the book, they showed the rape of a major character which has not happened in the book, 2 major characters meeting, which might not happen in the books the same way.

      Jon will die. Arya will meet the same fate, I feel.

      You might “feel” that Jon and Arya will die, but something more than feeling is required if you’re going to base your argument on that.

      The pairings of the top-tier characters definitely qualify as “important stuff” GRRM has told D&D. D&D sat GRRM down and made him go character by character for future plot arcs. It’s fair to say that GRRM didn’t tell them where each and every character of the thousands in the books end up, but if you think that D&D don’t know exactly where and with whom (if anyone) the major Targs, Lannisters and Starks end up, you’re kidding yourself, especially if there’s a king/queen pairing that comes out of it.

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    128. M,

      We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Only time will tell. Also, GRRM said a lot of people will be sitting on the Iron throne before the end. I don’t take that as a definite that there will even be an Iron Throne in the end. Also, with the way you’re saying that D&D know major things that happen to characters, then I feel worried for Sansa’s fate in the books with the way she was treated in this season. Rape is a major thing to happen to a character.

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    129. brashcandy:
      M,
      We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Only time will tell.Also, GRRM said a lot of people will be sitting on the Iron throne before the end. I don’t take that as a definite that there will even be an Iron Throne in the end. Also, with the way you’re saying that D&D know major things that happen to characters, then I feel worried for Sansa’s fate in the books with the way she was treated in this season. Rape is a major thing to happen to a character.

      GRRM had a recent interview where he specifically made reference to knowing (or D&D knowing, can’t recall) who sits the Iron Throne in the end, but you’re right, time will tell.

      As to your worry about Sansa, if D&D really do consider themselves free to make shit up regarding the top-tier characters’ endgame pairings, based on everything I’ve seen in the show, TV Sansa will end up crawling back to a magnanimous Tyrion.

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    130. M,

      Thar would actually be a perfect pairing and the ultimate step of growth for Sansas character. Her seeing past the superficial physical flaws and appreciating a true Prince.

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    131. If you think the show is working towards the same endgame, then it doesn’t appear Jon/Arya is in the cards. Show Jon doesn’t mention Arya that much. They have that one close scene, where she really is presented as his little sister and nothing more. There are no internal monologues on the show, obviously, but D&D can highlight what’s important. The fact that there’s really been no emphasis on that relationship other than they were siblings and he looked out for her tells me that’s not a relationship in the long run. Indeed, the book references are likely vestiges of the old plan.

      Furthermore, the show undid one main sign by having it be Sansa in Winterfell. The fact that Jon was willing to sacrifice everything to save Arya is important in the book, but by skipping fake Arya they skip that whole relationship-based point. If anything, they brought Jon back into Sansa’s orbit (and not at all saying there’s a relationship there, just that she might meet him again).

      Also while GRRM might present incest a lot, show GOT has really clearly multiple times presented it as a perversion. You don’t get love struck internal monologues. You get a twisted relationship, illegitimate children, a crazy queen and an almost rape. The show hasn’t glamorized the incest at all. That tells me they don’t have to go the route of white-washing it for two of the most loved characters, the “good guys” in Jon and Arya.

      It’s just not happening.

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    132. Great thread!

      Giralt of Rivia said something that revived an idea I had years ago. It was about the blue rose and Dany. Although I have mixed feelings about it, I think the books and especially the show point in the direction of a Dany and Jon union. If and when THEY marry, it will be a marriage of equals. GRRM is a history buff. He would know that Lancastrian king Henry VII married Yorkist princess Elizabeth of York, and together founded the House of Tudor, choosing as its emblem the Tudor Rose. That rose consisted of the Red Rose of Lancaster and the White Rose of York. I think the blue rose more logically represents Jon and is an indication that Dany will marry him. And since Dany is Fire, their emblem will be a red and blue rose. And I think they will rule equally, as Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castille became equal monarchs of Spain when they united it. Their motto was “tanto monta, monta tanto, Isabel como Fernando”. A rough translation is “It’s the same, Isabella like Ferdinand.” And like D and J, they were kin–second cousins. GRRM surely knows all this too. So Dany, queen by right and queen by marriage, is the young queen who will replace Cersei, despite everything Tywin and Robert did to eradicate the Targs. Poetic justice!

      And Wimsey reminds us of Arya and Gendry’s connection. Arya, whose avatar is Nymeria Queen of wolves, is the new Lyanna (but hopefully won’t die in childbirth or any state in the series). Gendry is more than a bastard. The fact that he is special is shown in his survival and that he instinctively kept that helmet Ned wanted. Show Gendry replaces the more noble Edric. In the book he was even knighted by Beric Dondarrion. Probably Gendry hasn’t been rowing all this time. Maybe he’s become a warrior and perhaps will eventually lead House Baratheon. And be a worthy partner for the warrior-princess of House Stark. Ned and Robert would be chuffed.

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    133. Also if they survive is it crazy that Sansa and Tyrion could end up married. The show has made nods to moments when he treated her kindly, and he’s no Lannister any longer – and he killed the man who planned robs death.

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    134. If Jon is still alive and becomes king he wouldn’t marry a Stark for political reasons. He’s grown up a Stark/Snow. It would be about unifying Westeros.
      I wondered if Jamie would be pressured to step in as ruler if Tommen dies next season/book.

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    135. M: GRRM has stated more than once that he knows who will be sitting on the Iron Throne at the end. I believe D&D have said the same thing. This implies that there will be a person on the throne at the end, and as of right now, Jon looks to me like the only likely candidate.

      I disagree. “No one” could the answer to who sits on the throne, as is “Someone, who only rules over a fragment of the splintered empire”. Barring dragons, Westeros is probably too big and too divided to be stable.

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    136. Wimsey,

      In other words given the Dickensian cast of characters, elaborate set pieces, machievellian politics coupled with a twisting narrative tapestry any adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire would be unable to please everybody? I am one of those people that believe HBO and D&D are doing their best given its budget and globe charting shooting schedule and taut post-production period. Unfortunately through its very nature, a seamless translation from page to screen of ASOIAF would be implausible.
      I think what debilitates the series from truly achieving greatness is time constraints, 10 episodes is not enough in my opinion. Even friends of mine who love the show have stated this. I think this season in particular shed some light on that weakness. If you condense the majority of two books into one season and hope against hope that the audience will read between the lines, two or three more episodes would help in fleshing things out.
      Reading posts from Unsullied on various sites one can glean that their primary gripe is that the conversation between characters in the previous seasons were less confining than they were in season 5. Dialogue and character nuance served only to push the plot forward. I think we would have less people upset about Shireen and Stannis’ fate with an extra episode dealing with the plight of Stannis’ army. Or how the Sparrows simply took over King’s Landing. But alas that is a dead horse that has been beaten to a ruddy mess.
      Essentially, the success of any adaptation is dependent on the myriad factors affecting a production of the is magnitude. Game of Thrones was destined to be polarizing to the fandom.

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    137. Stark Ravin’ Rad

      The War of the Roses comparison is always interesting. GRRM widened it out to Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Targ and threw in a rose house, Tyrell, for good measure. The initial conflict in ASOIAF is Stark v Lannister/Baratheon. But the roots of the current wars are in Robert’s rebellion which was Targ v Stark/Baratheon and Dany kind of resembles the exiled Henry Tudor figure though she wants a restoration of the Targs – the old Plantagenets – rather than a new house of Plantagenet descendants.

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    138. Chad Brick: I disagree. “No one” could the answer to who sits on the throne, as is “Someone, who only rules over a fragment of the splintered empire”. Barring dragons, Westeros is probably too big and too divided to be stable.

      First of all, hearty congrats to Maisie for the well-deserved recognition and award. I’ve just started re-watching the series from the beginning – Maisie was always good, and has gotten better. Her transformation from mischief maker to killer has been an amazing journey. These won’t be her last awards.

      As far as whose backside will be warming the Iron Throne in the end? – No-one. An empty, frozen throne with a burned out roof has been shown in two different prophecies.

      We all know that the character who most resembles GRRM is Cousin Orson – thunk, thunk, thunking his little beatles. We know what an eager student of history GRRM is, how he loves Tolkien and LOTR, and how broken he felt at the scourging of the Shire.

      Using those things as guide and example, Kings Landing in the west will become a forgotten, barren suburb of a new capitol in the east, most likely Bravos. All the bankers are in Bravos; they will own everything in the end, anyway. This is much like Rome became a backwater to Constantinople after the Romans messed everything up by being too greedy and concerned with private luxury, and not concerned enough that their subjects had food to eat. Or united enough fast enough in fighting the invading Goths (White-Walkers) even though they had ample warning.

      And George wants to scourge a shire, he NEEDS to scourge a shire, and thunk almost everyone in it – but not just a shire, he wants to scourge the whole continent of Westeros. I’ve moaned in the past about him leaving everything bleak and windswept, but have kind of come to terms with it, as long as our favorite heroes are able to get their asses safely across the sea.

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    139. Thronetender:
      As far as whose backside will be warming the Iron Throne in the end? – No-one. An empty, frozen throne with a burned out roof has been shown in two different prophecies.

      Which two prophecies show an empty frozen throne? I could only remember seeing that in the show, a throne room covered with snow (Snow), I believe, during the prophecies at the House of the Undying, but when I went to read that part in the book, I didn’t find the part where they talked about an empty throne room but rather one with an old man on the throne:

      Finally a great pair of bronze doors appeared to her left, grander than the rest. They swung open as she neared, and she had to stop and look. Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.” Drogon shrieked, his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on. –ACoK, Pages 526-527

      I kind of thought this was Mad King Aerys telling Jaime he was going to burn the city with wildfire and let Robert be king of charred bones and cooked meat, king of ashes. So this was more of a look back to the past than into the future.

      I’ve been reading and really enjoying the foreshadowing of Robin Hobb, whose real name is Megan Lindholm (Ogden). And she did an event with George where, at one point, they were asked questions of each other’s works. They asked Robin Hobb who would sit the iron throne, and she answers as a book reader and a book writer who presumably knows a great deal about setting up big reveals. When she said “Jon Snow,” George said, “Hey, Jon Snow likes that.” I guess this is hardly proof, but I would have expected more of a “You think Jon Snow will be king, do you?” if it were untrue.

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