Game of Thrones Memory Lane 201: The North Remembers

Stannis
Photo: gameofthrones.wikia.com

Throughout the first season of Game of Thrones, with the rise and fall of House Stark, we were frequently told that “Winter is Coming.”

In season 2, it was still not quite winter but something else ominous was on the horizon, and fans were warned before the season premiere ever aired:


war

This was one of HBO’s teaser posters released in advance of season 2. (The official key poster art featured a similar theme, but with the stag crown and a dramatic hand. Some of us in the fandom took to calling it the Triumphant Jesus poster.) The message was simple: War is Coming. Be ready.

The unstable new king of Westeros is the product of incest, and his mother helped murder the previous king. In the North, Robb has been crowned, while across the Narrow Sea, Daenerys rises from the ashes of her husband’s pyre with three baby dragons. On Dragonstone, we meet Stannis Baratheon, Robert’s younger brother and true heir, along with a fire-bearing priestess who burns the gods. And in the skies above them all is a red comet, a burning omen that takes on varying significance for many of them.

JoffreyBetween the dragons, the comet, and the Red god, you almost forget to worry about the White Walkers for a while.

In “The North Remembers,” after the TV-history-making execution of Ned Stark, Game of Thrones now had to move forward without Sean Bean’s steady protagonist at its center. Joffrey’s impetuous action led to a seismic shift in Westeros and in the story.  The young king doesn’t have the strength of his (presumed-in-the-public-eye) father Robert, and soon the nobles of the continent are tearing one another apart and taking sides in a battle for the throne.

In this episode, written by David Benioff and D.B. Weiss and directed by Alan Taylor, the characters and we the audience have to adapt to a post-Ned world. And that’s when the political story really begins. With the scattering of House Stark, we begin to see the first season was really just a prologue. Now, we’re off and running.

The premiere features several characters adjusting to their new roles in regards to power. Tyrion Lannister, assigned by his father to play Hand of the King, finds the part to his liking. Joffrey redecorates the Throne Room and abuses his position as a king at his nameday celebration, nearly killing a drunken knight until Sansa’s wits save the man. Bran’s gifts continue to develop as he experiences a wolf dream. Robb has a decision to make, whether or not to use his Kingslayer captive to trade for his sisters. Daenerys must become a leader and look after her remaining followers as they travel through the dangerous Red Waste. Cersei reminds Littlefinger very bluntly about the definition of power, shaking up the usually confident player.

MelThe new characters we meet on Dragonstone are involved in a fascinating internal power struggle that structures the episode. Loyal old Maester Cressen is afraid of the priestess and her influence over Stannis; her burning of the Seven on the beach has unnerved him and Davos Seaworth both. That Melisandre has power seems obvious- but will it bring Stannis greatness or ruin?

The maester makes a fatal move, vastly underestimating what Melisandre is capable of. Davos Seaworth witnesses her drink the poison along with Cressen. The maester dies, and Melisandre is unhurt. This incident sets the stage for their conflict over Stannis that will recur until the king dies in season 5, with Melisandre’s vision for him unfulfilled. She has great power, but there are flaws in the application and interpretation of it, as we’ll learn.

The examination of power- its benefits, joys, conflicts and costs- is one of the show’s main themes, and “The North Remembers” is a strong meditation on the subject.

One final thought, a major question for everyone going into the second season: without the leading character of Ned at the center, would fans still be along for the ride?

The answer of course was yes. Killing the man on the poster in season 1 (the heart of the story, we thought) was brilliant. Readers were hooked when George R.R. Martin did it, and viewers, however outraged, couldn’t help but be sucked in even more after the show carried it out.


Introductions: the Dragonstone gang including Stannis Baratheon, Melisandre, Davos Seaworth and his son Matthos. Jaime’s ill-fated cousin Alton Lannister turns up here. Craster and his daughter-wife Gilly are introduced when Jon and Sam go beyond the Wall, and we see Dolorous Edd for the first time. Ser Dontos Hollard makes a splash at the nameday party. Kovarro pops up in Dany’s khalasar. Daisy joins the brothel gang- it’s not going to end well for her.

RakharoAlso joining the show this year: Iceland and Croatia! The breathtaking snowy lands of the far North that Jon and Sam come across are genuine sights in Iceland. Croatia was added to the location roster, stepping in for Malta. Dubrovnik’s Old Town is very recognizable as King’s Landing, and many cities and sites throughout the country have become a part of Westeros and Essos since season 2.

Deaths: Poor Maester Cressen, played wonderfully by Oliver Ford Davies. Davies is very well known for his theater work, and for playing Sio Bibble in the Star Wars prequels. Summer departed in this episode- summer as in the season. The maesters send word that summer is over. Silver, Dany’s horse gifted from Drogo dies in the Red Waste. This is also the last we will see of Rakharo alive. In the next episode, all that appears is a head. In a shocking finale, all of Robert’s bastards in King’s Landing that can be located are murdered.


Maester Cressen’s poisonous Beautiful Death:

Cressen death

We were all stoked to see Stannis in season 2. And some people (a lot of people) were very ready for him. Right, Bex?

Stannis stan

The episode title, as well as being something of a reference to Tyrion saying ‘The Northerners will never forget,” is a famous quote from the books. The phrase was featured on a pre-season teaser poster. It’s an expression we’ll see called back again on the show in season 5:

The North Remembers gif

A Season 2 premiere-era favorite of mine: “Celebrity Story Time: Game of Thrones Author George R. R. Martin Reads Children’s Stories” (No, not really GRRM but damned accurate.)

Sue the Fury
Susan Miller, Editor in Chief of WatchersOnTheWall.com

102 Comments

  1. Ah, but just what does the North remember? I still am curious to see what that might be (other than a nice punchline).

  2. Just listened to the DVD commentary of Mother’s Mercy. D & D and David Nutter re-confirm Stannis is dead. Nutter reiterates that he thought it would be gratuitous that’s why he cut it the way he did. I call bull shit. Seriously doubt they would kill off a major character without showing any confirmation of his death.

  3. Notice that in the “I Stanned for Stannis” picture the original actress playing Selyse is shown in the background. They never referred to her by name but she is the only woman on the beach other than Mel and she’s standing by Stannis and leaves the beach with him.

  4. Wall Builder,

    The actress was an uncredited featured extra. Since she walks with Stannis, we fans assume she’s meant to represent Selyse but she was never confirmed or credited as such, so I don’t really count Selyse as being introduced at all.

  5. Just wanted too say that the casting of Liam as Davos and Carice as Mel where fantastic choices. Liam especially, he made me really love Davos!

    Wasn’t so convinced of Dillane as Stannis at first but by the end of the season he won me over. But it’s from S3 that I really started to love his performance and interpretation of the character.

  6. Tyrion’s plot is the highlight of the episode and, more generally, that story and Theon’s really lift up the season as a whole. Dinklage, especially, was really on fire this season. Looking back on the show as a whole, while his first Emmy win for Season 1 was not undeserved or anything, Season 2 is still Tyrion’s best season (of course, it’s also the fact the wasn’t up against Aaron Paul either of the times he won).

    Since this is Dontos’ only credited appearance prior to Season 4 in the finished product, one of the minor mysteries around Season 2 is all the rumours around the fate of this subplot (which I think was an omission that really harmed Sansa’s story in a bunch of ways). The weird thing is, you can see Dontos in non-speaking roles in both “Garden of Bones” and “Blackwater”, which means that they either hired the actor to hang around as an extra in a few crowd scenes for some reason, or they originally filmed more that got scrapped. For a while in the fandom there was a rumour that the producers found that the scenes they had filmed weren’t very good because of the actor playing Dontos, an explanation that never made much sense to me (the casting department has never failed that spectacularly), and certainly isn’t tenable since the show brought him back in Season 4. I’ve wondered whether, in the course of planning Season 3 alongside the putting-together of Season, 2 they decided to drop this whole plot because it didn’t fit with what they wanted to do going forward. Or maybe they just did decide to use the dude as an extra?

    Finally, and I was thinking about this since I was recently trying to game out which plotlines are likely to be delayed to episode 2 of Season 6, this episode begins Arya’s bad luck with season premieres in the post-S1 seasons (in the first season, the plot was a lot more concentrated). The show never has enough room to fit everything into the first episode of a given season, and Arya, a major character but almost entirely freestanding from every other storyline (other than the sync-up with the Red Wedding in Season 3), is one of the easiest to delay. She missed Season 3 and 5 entirely, and here has only a 2-second, wordless tag. Indeed, it’s notable that the only post-S1 season premiere where she has a substantial role, Season 4, occurs in a season where the big early events of the season have to be fit into episode 2 instead (the Purple Wedding).

  7. Sean C.,

    They explained why. Sansa dealt directly with LF, instead of doing it through Dontos. Wisely, the show always tries to bring major characters together.

  8. Yaga:
    Who was the Khal responsible for Rakharo’s death?

    In the next episode Jorah hypothesizes that it was either Khal Jhaqo or Khal Pono.

  9. Luka Nieto,

    No, I’m familiar with that. My point is whether they actually filmed a subplot and then cut it during Season 3 planning, or if the guy was indeed just an extra in other episodes.

    Regardless, it’s a cut I think really harms Sansa’s story, but that’s neither here nor there.

  10. You can tell the budget increased here…..except for poor Melisandre’s wig.

    I’m still convinced they should have saved this episode title for later….when the North actually remembers what it’s supposed to remember.

    As for the posters: seasons 1 and 2 had the best ones in my opinion. I guess with the minor exception of season 4, the other 3 left look like they were made in MS Paint.

    I love Edd’s one liners. As for the whole Wall/Beyond the Wall storyline: It was ok, but could have been improved. I think one of the mistakes was sidelining it a bit too much in the earlier seasons. I don’t know, however, if this was due to time constraints, or if it was an intentional decision. I see some slight improvement in how they’re writing Jon’s character (it’s taking a bit for the writing to catch up with the character’s age on the show, if that makes sense). Also, I love how Jon is disgusted by Craster. Interesting how he nods when Mormont asks him if he wants to lead. 🙂

    Dany’s storyline is super weak (I find it the least interesting of the season and was tempted to skip it when I rewatched the show last year, but it was a group viewing so…). On the other hand, this is probably the best season for King’s Landing (in terms of quality and acting). Great writing (especially for Tyrion and Cersei, whose scenes are always a delight).

  11. Sean C.,

    I agree about Tyrion. This is Peter’s best season. I also agree about Arya (which makes me think she might miss the season 6 premiere too). I’ll be surprised if we see her before episode 2. I’m just as confused about Dontos (cutting him harms Sansa’s storyline a bit here and it doesn’t seem like she has a lot to do as a result).

  12. Wimsey:
    Ah, but just what does the North remember?I still am curious to see what that might be (other than a nice punchline).

    Should have saved that title for season 6, if the North successfully overcomes its amnesia by then.

  13. Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,

    Purely on an acting level, I think the Beyond the Wall plot in seasons 2 and 3 suffered from the decision to film in Iceland. Those conditions were not particularly suited to filmmaking, beautiful as they were, and there’s a noticeable difference in quality between scenes filmed indoors (or outdoors in Ireland in season 3) and those filmed in Iceland. That doesn’t cover everything, such as the handling of everything to do with Qhorin, but it was a factor. Also, in Season 3 Jon’s plot needed more screentime than it got.

  14. LatrineDiggerBrian:
    Just listened to the DVD commentary of Mother’s Mercy. D & D and David Nutter re-confirm Stannis is dead. Nutter reiterates that he thought it would be gratuitous that’s why he cut it the way he did. I call bull shit. Seriously doubt they would kill off a major character without showing any confirmation of his death.

    He’s dead and filming a beheading is expensive. It makes no narrative sense for him to still be alive.

  15. Jon Snow’s Curling Iron: He’s dead and filming a beheading is expensive. It makes no narrative sense for him to still be alive.

    They could’ve done it without explicitly showing the beheading. They could’ve done a shot from behind the tree and show the blood splattering.

    And I disagree that it makes no narrative sense. He could have a redemption arc, or Brienne could save him out of guilt only to have him be tempted by Melisandre again and stab Brienne in the back. There is some stuff they could do.

  16. Sean C.:
    Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,

    Purely on an acting level, I think the Beyond the Wall plot in seasons 2 and 3 suffered from the decision to film in Iceland.Those conditions were not particularly suited to filmmaking, beautiful as they were, and there’s a noticeable difference in quality between scenes filmed indoors (or outdoors in Ireland in season 3) and those filmed in Iceland.That doesn’t cover everything, such as the handling of everything to do with Qhorin, but it was a factor.Also, in Season 3 Jon’s plot needed more screentime than it got.

    I agree with everything. Gorgeous scenery, but the snowstorms they were filming in were dreadful. I wanted more Qhorin as well (and maybe more development of the Jeor-Jon relationship and how Jon is affected by Robb being king). I’m probably nitpicking, but the Jon-Gilly meeting could have been handled a bit better.

    And yes Jon’s storyline needed much more attention in season 3. If I had a dollar for every time I had to explain what the deal was with the Wildlings to people and what Jon was supposed to do there….

    I think in season 3 they were so focused on the Red Wedding, that some of the storylines suffered a bit. But we’ll get there soon enough.

  17. LatrineDiggerBrian: They could’ve done it without explicitly showing the beheading. They could’ve done a shot from behind the tree and show the blood splattering.

    And I disagree that it makes no narrative sense. He could have a redemption arc, or Brienne could save him out of guilt only to have him be tempted by Melisandre again and stab Brienne in the back. There is some stuff they could do.

    Brienne’s been after his ass since season 2 to avenge Renly. No way she stood there in front of him reciting her CV to then change her mind. I hope I’m not being rude, but I’m just trying to spare you the disappointment.

  18. Wow – great synopsis, Fury….beautifully written! Loved the whole power theme that runs throughout this season.

  19. Jon Snow’s Curling Iron: Brienne’s been after his ass since season 2 to avenge Renly. No way she stood there in front of him reciting her CV to then change her mind. I hope I’m not being rude, but I’m just trying to spare you the disappointment.

    Nah no worries, I’m not like a huge Stannis fan who is really getting his hopes up for his return or anything. I’m just highly suspicious that there was no confirmation shown on screen. And I could see Brienne, who does have more than a shred of decency, not being able to pull the trigger on killing Stannis in his current pathetic state.

  20. Jon Snow’s Curling Iron: Should have saved that title for season 6, if the North successfully overcomes its amnesia by then.

    Well, Season 6 might be “The North is Forcibly Reminded” if the Walkers get through the Wall at the end!

    LatrineDiggerBrian: Seriously doubt they would kill off a major character without showing any confirmation of his death.

    But Stannis is not a major character. The storyline only centers on him briefly in Season 5, where the “kill the child” gets a literal as well as figurative example, but elsewise, he is a foil for Davos’ storylines in the other seasons and in the books.

  21. LatrineDiggerBrian: He could have a redemption arc

    I’m going out on a limb here, but I think not even Game of Thrones could get away with giving a daughter burner a redemption arc.

    Jon Snow’s Curling Iron: I’m still convinced they should have saved this episode title for later

    Yeah. They probably used up the good ones early, because they’d never thought they ended up where they are now 🙂

  22. Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,

    This also is hardly an uncommon way to show a killing on TV or in movies. When you have a show like Thrones or Sopranos or Rome where there is so much killing, the producers and directors are going to feel the need to show it differently. It’s sort of like writing a paper in which you have to use the same word frequently: you start looking for any and every synonym that you can just to make the writing feel less repetitive. It’s the same concept here.

  23. Wimsey:
    Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,

    This also is hardly an uncommon way to show a killing on TV or in movies.When you have a show like Thrones or Sopranos or Rome where there is so much killing, the producers and directors are going to feel the need to show it differently.It’s sort of like writing a paper in which you have to use the same word frequently: you start looking for any and every synonym that you can just to make the writing feel less repetitive.It’s the same concept here.

    Very true. Thrones has had a fair number of beheadings, and let’s be real Stannis’ whole arc was also about how he’s not the Lord of Light’s chosen.

  24. Great introduction to Stannis, Mel and Davos

    Team Dragonstone have all been excellently cast, Selyse was on character and of course Shireen

  25. Wimsey:
    Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,

    This also is hardly an uncommon way to show a killing on TV or in movies.When you have a show like Thrones or Sopranos or Rome where there is so much killing, the producers and directors are going to feel the need to show it differently.It’s sort of like writing a paper in which you have to use the same word frequently: you start looking for any and every synonym that you can just to make the writing feel less repetitive.It’s the same concept here.

    Can you give another example that is similar to Stannis, where someone is killed off camera and there is absolutely no confirmation, i.e. no shot of the body or no mention of it?

  26. Two observations.

    1) Melisandre spoke of a hero who will draw a burning sword from the fire. It’s a bit different, than the Azor-Ahai legend from the books and I think we should take that into account, when we speculate on the future development of the events of the show.
    2) After Stannis drew his new sword from the fire, he left it on the beach (probably it became too hot), and then Davos picked it and carried to the castle. It looked so weird, but now I get the point: Stannis was neither the hero, nor a believer, and the burning sword was just a PR trick no-one took seriously.

  27. Wylie: Yeah. They probably used up the good ones early, because they’d never thought they ended up where they are now

    Well, there is the question of if this ever be an apt description of happenings. We almost certainly are not going to see the Northerners magically rally and wipe out the Lannisters: Winter is about to hit (and this time probably featuring White Walkers), and, let’s face it: if Cersei somehow fails to finish off the Lannister’s herself, Daeny is going to finish the job long before the Spring.

    Really, about the only thing to which this seems to apply is somewhat ironic: the Weirwood trees in the North “remember” lifetimes and lifetimes of happenings. However, the people in the North do not seem to have any share of that memory.

  28. Wimsey,

    It is totally ironic that the Northerners use the phrase as they do while it seems to allude to some important event from the past which could ultimately help understand what is going on with the seasons and the WW. Ultimately, I think it is important that Bran will be able to set his “vision puzzle” together and actually “remember” what the North should remember.

  29. Anon:
    LatrineDiggerBrian,

    When since do they think beheading is gratuitous?Lmao.

    Yeah good point. Plus, if their aim was to leave it as sort of a cliff hanger like a lot of the other stuff in the episode, why immediately after the episode did they scream loud and clear that Stannis is 100% dead?

  30. LatrineDiggerBrian: Can you give another example that is similar to Stannis, where someone is killed off camera and there is absolutely no confirmation, i.e. no shot of the body or no mention of it?

    The Sopranos ended that way quite famously. So did Blake’s 7. (Also the movie Butch Cassiday and the Sundance Kid!) I’ve been watching The Expanse and they have had at least one death that way so far. Doctor Who always does one death a year that way. Quite honestly, I’ve seen the “fade to black” death (which is I think the official term for it) so often that it barely sticks to the memory. If you think about it, it’s pretty common for characters like Stannis: lesser characters who cause problems for the main characters in some ways or others. Often they get a terse “he/she won’t be bothering us anymore” line afterwards and that is it.

    But as for “no mention,” that is entirely a negative evidence statement. Brienne has had zero subsequent scenes in which she did not talk about it. That was the absolute final scene of the year for that plotline. So, you cannot say that they did not mention it afterwards: there has been no afterwards yet.

  31. Wimsey: The Sopranos ended that way quite famously.So did Blake’s 7.(Also the movie Butch Cassiday and the Sundance Kid!)I’ve been watching The Expanse and they have had at least one death that way so far.Doctor Who always does one death a year that way.Quite honestly, I’ve seen the “fade to black” death (which is I think the official term for it) so often that it barely sticks to the memory.If you think about it, it’s pretty common for characters like Stannis: lesser characters who cause problems for the main characters in some ways or others.Often they get a terse “he/she won’t be bothering us anymore” line afterwards and that is it.

    But as for “no mention,” that is entirely a negative evidence statement.Brienne has had zero subsequent scenes in which she did not talk about it. That was the absolute final scene of the year for that plotline.So, you cannot say that they did not mention it afterwards: there has been no afterwards yet.

    The Sopranos ending is an apples to oranges comparison. The other ones I don’t know of, but it makes no sense that D & D would leave it as ambiguous / a cliff hanger only for them to have to explain what happened directly after. Either they made a mistake in portraying his death for that many people to be confused, or he’s still alive. I’ll go with the latter because they’re too good to make a mistake that big.

    Also, in rewatching the scene, Brienne clearly shows some hesitation before doing the deed. She pauses for a long while, hesitantly pulls out her sword, and looks more apprehensive than angry when she goes to do the deed.

  32. LatrineDiggerBrian: why immediately after the episode did they scream loud and clear that Stannis is 100% dead?

    Because it was never intended to be a mystery. They had to scream because some fans were pestering them with questions, no doubt in part inspired by the block of fans who were convinced that Stannis was somehow the “Hero” of the story and that he could not possibly be dead yet. We have seen this elsewhere: many of the justifications for dismissing the Pink Letter as a hoax were based at least partially on the idea that Stannis is going to be hugely important later in the story and thus could not be dead.

    But I think that the other issue is that shows like this get a lot of people who do not watch many other TV shows or films. They were relying on us recognizing a not uncommon visual representation of death when the person who is the focus of the scene is dying: cut to black.

    I remember this coming up for Lord of the Rings a lot: fans complained about different parts of cinematic arrangement that actually are fairly standard cinematic devices. (There were many fans who were convinced that the films actually were very poorly done; the fact that movie people praised the films only told the fans that movie people know nothing about film. And we wonder why fanboys have such bad reputations….. 🙁 )

    LatrineDiggerBrian: I’ll go with the latter because they’re too good to make a mistake that big.

    But, again, only a tiny fraction of viewers were confused by it. The vast majority of the viewers knew exactly what happened: after all, how many times had they seen this cinematic device before? It was not a mistake, anymore than someone using a word that 1% of the audience does not know is a mistake.

  33. Wimsey: Because it was never intended to be a mystery.They had to scream because some fans were pestering them with questions, no doubt in part inspired by the block of fans who were convinced that Stannis was somehow the “Hero” of the story and that he could not possibly be dead yet.We have seen this elsewhere: many of the justifications for dismissing the Pink Letter as a hoax were based at least partially on the idea that Stannis is going to be hugely important later in the story and thus could not be dead.

    But I think that the other issue is that shows like this get a lot of people who do not watch many other TV shows or films.They were relying on us recognizing a not uncommon visual representation of death when the person who is the focus of the scene is dying: cut to black.

    I remember this coming up for Lord of the Rings a lot: fans complained about different parts of cinematic arrangement that actually are fairly standard cinematic devices.(There were many fans who were convinced that the films actually were very poorly done; the fact that movie people praised the films only told the fans that movie people know nothing about film.And we wonder why fanboys have such bad reputations….. )

    But, again, only a tiny fraction of viewers were confused by it.The vast majority of the viewers knew exactly what happened: after all, how many times had they seen this cinematic device before?It was not a mistake, anymore than someone using a word that 1% of the audience does not know is a mistake.

    My goodness, no this is not some case of people not being able to understand some complicated cinematic device. That’s a bit condescending. And no it wasn’t a small percentage of viewers who questioned it, it was mentioned in every single article that did a review of the episode, and again, if the director and show runners have to come out to explicitly say that he’s dead, that probably means that a lot of the audience was suspicious. But anyway, we’ll see what happens in season 6.

  34. Wimsey,

    Stannis was a dead man anyway. His leg was wounded and bleeding badly. So, Brienne hesitated, because she understood that instead of grim justice she was giving him a mercy-killing. Had he survived a bit longer he would be flayed by Ramsay.

  35. Something that occured to me during my memory lane rewatch, is that the number of soldiers makes no sense. Robb Stark has called all his banners. All of them. He commands the entire army of the North and yet that only sums up to 20,000 men? How is this possible?
    Tywin claims he has 60,000 Lannister soldiers. Ranly’s force of half the Baratheon and the entire Tyrell army is 100,000 men strong. How can the combined forces of all the northern houses be only 20,000 men strong? It makes no sense…

  36. LatrineDiggerBrian,

    Not to drive this discussion further off topic, but I have to point out those last Stannis’ scenes in S5 seemed to be shot intentionally like a Stannis-POV. After he burns Shireen, we get that whole army-deserting, Selyse-dying, Mel-deserting sequence in a nice, shocked haze. After that, we get the battle (kind of) and then lonely Stannis walking through the woods.

    It would have been weird to see Stannis’ corpse in that scene: Our camera had just died. So, until we get something from Brienne suggesting otherwise, I see no reason to believe Stannis didn’t die.

  37. batfan:
    Something that occured to me during my memory lane rewatch, is that the number of soldiers makes no sense. Robb Stark has called all his banners. All of them. He commands the entire army of the North and yet that only sums up to 20,000 men? How is this possible?
    Tywin claims he has 60,000 Lannister soldiers. Ranly’s force of half the Baratheon and the entire Tyrell army is 100,000 men strong. How can the combined forces of all the northern houses be only 20,000 men strong? It makes no sense…

    My guess is because of the sheer size of the North (I think it’s bigger than the rest of the kingdoms combined). It would take longer to assemble all the troops (and Robb had to do it on very short notice and march immediately). I don’t remember if Robb had Tully troops from the Riverlands as well by then. But anyway.

    Also, I assume that Tywin and Renly had called their banners earlier. Tywin: when he sent The Mountain to raid the Riverlands. Renly: probably right after Robert died and, unlike Robb, had the time to also get married quickly and secure the Tyrell support.

  38. batfan,

    Because it’s the north, not a lot of people live there, like Canada is a bigger country than the United States, but the population of Canada is 30 million and Usa is 300 million. Tough cold weather is not really popular when it comes to decide where you want to live.

    LatrineDiggerBrian,

    The best explanation that I can give you to explain that Stannis is really dead is that it was the logical end of this character’s arc. He gambled everything, than lost everything, the only thing he had left to do was die. He lost his wife, his daughter, his army, his faith, and would have lost his friend Davos when he would have learned what he did to Shereen. To me it was the best one season dramatic arc any character have had on this show and I tought the end was absolutely beautiful. To bring him back would feel incredibly wrong, unlike Jon Snow who still has some business to settle with the night’s king.

  39. Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,

    What concerns me about that is that Mel has mentioned once or twice that she has the fire burning within her. She might end up being the sacrifice if Lightbringer makes it to the show.

  40. LatrineDiggerBrian: My goodness, no this is not some case of people not being able to understand some complicated cinematic device.

    If I was being condescending, then I would suggest that it’s small wonder that most people didn’t get it, as it would take an above-average level of intellectual sophistication or an above-average experience with cinematic devices to understand what happened. But I’m not: I’m stating that it’s a pretty standard cinematic device that many shows and films have used before and many will use again, and most of the time it will pass unnoticed because there will be nobody trying to find a loophole. You didn’t need to be Joe or Jane Sundance to appreciate it: Joe and Jane HBO viewer would do just fine.

    On the other hand, I would say that it is pretty conceited to assume that just because you are unfamiliar with something that it follows that Joe and Jane HBO viewer are, too. They didn’t get confused when this happened on, say, Deadwood: why would they get confused here?

    Inga: Stannis was a dead man anyway. His leg was wounded and bleeding badly.

    True! I remember more than a few people pointing that out at the time. Unless there was a maester around that other rock (and a damned good one, too), then Stannis was going to bleed and/or freeze to death shortly. Add to this that Stannis was, at this point, a man completely dead inside. He’d just killed the only person in the world for whom he had a shred of affection in the name of his god: not R’hllor, but Duty. Stannis was a soulless man who lacked any lust for life: but at that point he knew he was a dead man. It was fitting that his final words were basically a homage to his god!

  41. Inga,
    Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,

    Two common fan speculations suggest that there will not be a “reforging” of Heartburn or whatever Azor Ahai’s sword was. One is that the sword is still around, and a rather famous sword in Westeros. This has never come up on the show, but as it has received scant attention in the books, if it is important, then the show would not introduce it until the season it becomes important. (That could be this year.)

    The other is the speculation that part of the forging of Valyrian steel involved plunging the fresh steel into a human sacrifice. This is an old trope, and something that it seems real people did. (Because, you know, I want your power and all of that.) If so, then what it might have vaguely set up is why Valyrian steel harms White Walkers.

    Of course, it is always possible that there will be another forging of Anduril. Others have speculated that the Maesters have held the secret for making Valyrian steel and that they’ll make more swords this way. Or it might have nothing to do with Valyrian steel at all. The main point is that despite Mel’s insistence on ceremony, they might not need a new Flamethrower.

  42. W C-R:
    LatrineDiggerBrian,

    Not to drive this discussion further off topic, but I have to point out those last Stannis’ scenes in S5 seemed to be shot intentionally like a Stannis-POV. After he burns Shireen, we get that whole army-deserting, Selyse-dying, Mel-deserting sequence in a nice, shocked haze. After that, we get the battle (kind of) and then lonely Stannis walking through the woods.

    It would have been weird to see Stannis’ corpse in that scene: Our camera had just died. So, until we get something from Brienne suggesting otherwise, I see no reason to believe Stannis didn’t die.

    They didn’t necessarily have to show his corpse, they could’ve used sound effects or blood. Watch the clip again and tell me that Brienne doesn’t look apprehensive after he says “go on do your duty”.

  43. SebLeblanc:
    batfan,

    Because it’s the north, not a lot of people live there, like Canada is a bigger country than the United States, but the population of Canada is 30 million and Usa is 300 million. Tough cold weather is not really popular when it comes to decide where you want to live.

    LatrineDiggerBrian,

    The best explanation that I can give you to explain that Stannis is really dead is that it was the logical end of this character’s arc. He gambled everything, than lost everything, the only thing he had left to do was die. He lost his wife, his daughter, his army, his faith, and would have lost his friend Davos when he would have learned what he did to Shereen. To me it was the best one season dramatic arc any character have had on this show and I tought the end was absolutely beautiful. To bring him back would feel incredibly wrong, unlike Jon Snow who still has some business to settle with the night’s king.

    I agree that it could’ve been a logical end to his character arc. But I could also see ways where he could’ve survived and still have a part to play in the story.

  44. As a collective unit, Season 2 is my least favorite season of Game of Thrones. However, I still adore it wholeheartedly whenever I’m watch it and think that there are some truly great episodes and exceptional moments to be found! 🙂

    And I must say that “The North Remembers” is probably my second-favorite season premiere, after “Two Swords”. GOT premieres have a reputation for being slower-paced episodes that set the table for what’s to come (like the finales until recently), and this one definitely does lays that necessary groundwork. However, everything feels more confident and self-assured here, like the creative team knows they’re playing with house money a bit after the resounding success of Season 1.

    The flow between scenes set in different parts of the world is also much-improved. Obviously, the red comet is a tremendous help in that respect (in addition to being a potent thematic symbol and a damn cool visual to boot)!

    The debut of Stannis, Davos, and Melisandre is one of the very few times that the show introduces us to new characters without using a pre-existing character as a conduit (though Stannis was mentioned in Season 1). However, the scenes on Dragonstone are so strong that such a step is unnecessary – all three characters are concisely and expertly drawn, and feel like a completely natural part of the world (despite the decidedly unnatural magic that Melisandre wields). It’s like they’ve always been there.

    This is the first time I’ve re-watched these scenes since Stannis’s downfall and death at Winterfell. I’m very interested to watch the progression of Stannis throughout the series now that I know how his story ends. I’m not sure how I’m going to cope with the introduction of Shireen in Season 3. 🙁

  45. Wimsey: If I was being condescending, then I would suggest that it’s small wonder that most people didn’t get it, as it would take an above-average level of intellectual sophistication or an above-average experience with cinematic devices to understand what happened.But I’m not: I’m stating that it’s a pretty standard cinematic device that many shows and films have used before and many will use again, and most of the time it will pass unnoticed because there will be nobody trying to find a loophole.You didn’t need to be Joe or Jane Sundance to appreciate it: Joe and Jane HBO viewer would do just fine.

    On the other hand, I would say that it is pretty conceited to assume that just because you are unfamiliar with something that it follows that Joe and Jane HBO viewer are, too.They didn’t get confused when this happened on, say, Deadwood: why would they get confused here?

    True!I remember more than a few people pointing that out at the time.Unless there was a maester around that other rock (and a damned good one, too), then Stannis was going to bleed and/or freeze to death shortly.Add to this that Stannis was, at this point, a man completely dead inside.He’d just killed the only person in the world for whom he had a shred of affection in the name of his god: not R’hllor, but Duty.Stannis was a soulless man who lacked any lust for life: but at that point he knew he was a dead man.It was fitting that his final words were basically a homage to his god!

    The irony here is you’re going on this spiel about intellectual sophistication and cinematic devices, and then you’re going and comparing the ending to the Sopranos to the death of Stannis which are two completely different things. Just about the only thing they have in common is ambiguity, but other than that, it’s a silly comparison.
    I’ve watched Deadwood and there is no comparison in that either, so not sure what you’re talking about.

  46. I absolutely love the scene when Robb confronts Jaime in his cell. The first half of Season 2 is when Robb is at the peak of his success, and from the way that the Young Wolf carries himself, we get a sense of just how strong and dangerous he has become in his new role as a field general and King in the North. Bryan Cogman just tweeted out yesterday that the day they shot the scene in which Richard and Catelyn mourn Ned’s death, he knew that they were going to expand Robb’s role in Season 2 (https://twitter.com/b_cogman/status/709600391311196160)

    Smart move! I love Richard Madden’s performance, and his work really deepened my affection for the character. I like Robb in the books, but he’s mostly an archetype who spends most of ACOK fighting his battles “off-screen”. Elevating Robb to a major protagonist in Season 2 and 3 was a necessary step, in my opinion, as it gave his eventual downfall the weight it might have otherwise lost in the translation from book to screen. Ultimately, that decision ensured that the show’s vision of the Red Wedding was as devastating as it was.

    But time for that later! Right now, my guy Robb is doing well, and knowing that he’s ultimately doomed means that I relish every win he gets, even if it comes at the expense of Jaime (who’s probably my favorite character overall). Anyway, great work from both Richard Madden and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau here.

    (The most common criticism that I’ve seen of Robb’s elevation from book readers is that it came at Catelyn’s expense to a certain extent. I understand that point, but honestly … and I know I’ll get disagreement on this … that’s a trade that I’m willing to make, as much as I love Michelle Fairley’s work).

    The slaughter of Robert’s bastards has a case to be made as the most brutal acts of violence this show has ever depicted. It tends to get overlooked because the characters who are killed are all played by extras, but when you consider what’s happening, it’s utterly horrifying. It makes for a powerful final sequence as children are torn from their mothers’ arms and butchered as Ramin Djawdi’s excellent track “The Throne is Mine”, signifying that Joffrey’s reign of terror has begun in earnest. And I love the final image of Arya and Gendry traveling down the Dark Hedges, heading north. They’re being hunted, and they’re in terrible danger, even if they don’t quite realize how much … yet.

  47. LatrineDiggerBrian,

    If you have theories as to what Stannis could do next if he’s still alive please do share them. I think he is dead but I’m open minded if you think he could do something that really contribute to our main story it’s fine but I just can’t think of anything.

  48. Wimsey,

    Alright, in the spirit of not-piling-on, I’m going to pivot a bit here.

    I don’t watch much TV. Deadwood, Sopranos- these words mean nothing to me. But, Game of Thrones (moreso than other series? But ASOIAF moreso than other books) has a lot riding on characters as being unequivocally dead. Speculation might abound anyway (Rhaegar=Mance!), but there’s huge value in actually showing people dying, if only to keep the cast of maybe-living smaller. Even if there were real reasons to cut away (lots of beheadings, Stannis was dead anyway), it’s hard to imagine they outweighed the GoT-specific necessity of showing Stannis’ head roll. What works for other shows does not necessarily work here.

    This all assumes, I think, that D+D directed that scene perfectly (according to my taste, which I cannot imagine anyone here not sharing). But, that’s another argument.

  49. SebLeblanc:
    LatrineDiggerBrian,

    If you have theories as to what Stannis could do next if he’s still alive please do share them. I think he is dead but I’m open minded if you think he could do something that really contribute to our main story it’s fine but I just can’t think of anything.

    Some kind of redemption arc? It’s besides the point anyway, I’m just going on the fact that he was never shown to be killed on camera and Brienne looks very apprehensive before “killing” him.

  50. Wimsey,

    If that is the case, the only new named swords they might introduce this season are

    Dawn, Dark Sister (though I think Arya already mentioned it in season 2) and/or Blackfyre. And the Tarly one perhaps (forgot its name). My guess is that Dawn seems like the best candidate (since it’s made in a different way than the VS swords), but I don’t know how Jon would come in possession of it if he’s truly AA. Dark Sister seems more within his reach if Bran finds it and sends it to him via Meera (but even that might take a while).

    I don’t think Mel will sacrifice herself to bring Jon back (besides her visions with the Bolton banners and Arya, there’s also the promo picture of her for season 6). She’s definitely safe this season. Maybe resurrecting Jon weakens her in some way, with R’hllor’s fire now keeping Jon warm as opposed to her (she did reference the fire keeping her warm in season 5). In that case, Jon would literally be the sword (“sword in the darkness” and all that) and if R+L = J, then R is Azor Ahai and L is the sacrifice.

    The whole Azor Ahai is very unclear to me. Maybe we’ll get a History and Lore video next year about him.

    If it’s a known sword, then Bran and Bloodraven might provide the exposition (especially if Dark Sister is with them, which would lead into a discussion about the sword). If it’s the maesters, then I guess Sam finds out something about this (he’s got to have something to do in Oldtown anyway).

  51. Big Mac:
    LatrineDiggerBrian,

    There is no redemption to be had after you burn your daughter.

    Jaime Lannister tried murdering an adolescent and also killed his cousin in cold blood, and people seem to have no problem with his redemption arc. Not saying Stannis could ever fully redeem himself, but like Jaime, he could try to do what’s right.

  52. Michael McElhatton does a bad-ass job again.. Loved this one so much.

  53. Does anyone else think that Tyrion looks like Dr. House in the face? Especially season 5 for some reason.

  54. W C-R: but, Game of Thrones (moreso than other series? But ASOIAF moreso than other books) has a lot riding on characters as being unequivocally dead.

    This is a view that fanbases always have about the cinematic adaptations of their books (Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, SoI&F) or for “cult” TV series (Doctor Who, Star Trek) or films (Star Wars). However, the data say differently: even TV/movie series with big fanbases succeed or fail based on how the general viewership accepts the series. (And that often is opposite of how the fans do!) Like all other hit series with fanbases, the vast majority of the viewers are not “fans”: most of them last thought about the show when they saw Jon lying in the snow and thought to themselves: “Geez, another Stark died? Oh well, he’s probably off to make movies….” and who will next think about it seriously when they watch the premier in April. They are not spending a lot of time wondering who is alive or dead!

    W C-R:Even if there were real reasons to cut away (lots of beheadings, Stannis was dead anyway), it’s hard to imagine they outweighed the GoT-specific necessity of showing Stannis’ head roll. What works for other shows does not necessarily work here.

    The same rules apply to Thrones as apply to all of the “serial” TV series, and Thrones is so successful because it does what the other highly successful (both in terms of critical and popular success) series do. Now, I do agree that the fans of series with fanbases judge the shows or films by unique rules: but fans always are a small fraction of viewers. You might not watch cable or Internet TV series,: but Joe and Jane Viewer do, and that means that they judge Thrones with the same criteria that they use (or used) for Dexter, the Tudors, the Sopranos, House of Cards, Deadwood, Orange is the New Black, etc.

    What you wrote might typify the huge difference between the general readers/viewers from the “Fans” (be it for Thrones or Harry Potter or Doctor Who or Lord of Rings or etc., etc.). You mentioned that Thrones need different rules: and what it seems that fans want are the rules of documentaries rather than the rules of stories. A documentary certainly should show the body. However: Thrones is a character drama, not a documentary: it is succeeding because it’s a really good character drama despite having magic, dragons and swords. And this “cut to black” death is the sort of cinematic device that you put in character dramas that the Thrones audience watches.

    Take this scene in particular. We’ve gotten the whole scene pretty much from Stannis’ PoV (insofar as film can do that.) We see a man who is dead inside already going through the motions, but taking what almost certainly are mortal wounds: He takes these with a resigned sigh more than anything else as he slumps to the ground (with the camera drooping to make us “droop” too). It is pretty obvious to the us by now that we are seeing him on his way out. But instead of drifting out, we see (and from an angle as if we, too, were slumped on the ground) Brienne appearing as an avenging angel. Words are exchanged, and everything stops when Brienne swings: because that is when Stannis would stop seeing anything.

    From the point of view of a character story, that is a very effective way to portray the death of a protagonist (even one who was a protagonist just for a year). And that is what Jane & Joe HBO Subscriber are paying to see. Joe and Jane HBO Subscriber are not sitting around wondering who is alive and who is not, so they do not need to see the body. Their conjectures are very basic ones such as “What are the motives of the White Walkers?” “Is Melisandre’s God a ‘god’ or a ‘demon’?” “Will things ever get better for the Starks?” or “Will Jon ever meet his mother?” And HBO is making the show for Joe and Jane HBO Subscriber because for every one of us that has heard that some people think that Daario is Euron, there are dozens and dozens of Joe & Jane HBO Subscribers giving HBO their $$$ for these types of shows. If they want documentaries, then they’ll watch the History Channel: but on HBO they want character dram and things like cut-to-black POV death.

  55. What I love about this episode is Cersei’s slap across Joffrey’s face. Also the scene in the beginning where Tyrion crashes Joffrey’s name day celebration… The way Tyrion exits that scene and leaves Joffrey baffled is priceless.

  56. Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,

    One of my biggest complaints with S2 is how they handled Jon’s arc. I wonder what the reasoning was while writing for this character in this season. He was commiting one fuck up after the next for the entire season, most of which never happened in the books. I am not just talking of the big ones, where the NW brothers were killed as a direct consequence of his decision to not kill Ygritte and then losing her. But even in Craster’s, glaring at Craster, staring at his daughters knowing that it would antagonise Craster, he had to be reprimanded by Mormont for this. Following Craster as he took his son away to sacrifice to the WWs, but then getting knocked out by Craster and his sword taken from him. Even in his interaction with the Halfhand, he seemed pretty clueless. So much so that people actually started taking Ygritte literally when she would say “you know nothing’.
    I wonder if they decided on this arc so that his subsequent growth would seem more marked in comparison. Or maybe to provide a contrast to Robb, who at that time seemed to be mature beyond his years as he handles the pressure of being KitN? Whatever the case, I wish Jon had a better arc this season. And Kit Harington’s acting at that point did not help either.

    Going to my favorite parts of this season, it was definitely KL, Theon and Arya. Arya and Tywin’s interactions, on the other hand, was an example of the show improving on the books! I have always admired how Maisie matched Charles Dance in terms of her performance in their scenes together. Their interactions were some of my favorite scenes in S2. Also agreed that this is Tyrion’s best season in terms of performance as well as his story arc.

    Dany’s arc this season was her weakest, imo. But the same was true in the books too.

    Overall, this is the least favorite season for me. Still a very good one though.

  57. Now an ex-lurker butting in here…

    I have one concern about Stannis’ final scene:
    He is sitting with his back to a tree (a fairly sizable one), Brienne approaches form and stands to his left, when she swings she does it forehand, from her right side towards her left. it’s not quite horizontal, but close enough. Bottom line her swing as pictured on the show would have to pass through the tree to get to Stannis…

    Do I want to see Stannis alive? NO! Nor do I believe Brienne has significant qualms about an execution (remember the lay with lions scene?) but the editing etc did leave a little doubt in the back of my mind

    With that said about the only thing that would make a “Stannis lives” scenario acceptable to me is if he’s the one being burnt by the Boltons.

  58. off topic
    A cool episode title for next season would be
    The Hour of the Wolf.
    backing off now XD

  59. Have to agree with the people who say this is their least favourite season.

    It has good scenes, like Arya and Tywin, but it suffers the same problem S3 will have. Every episode is a build up for the ”big” one in EP9. That makes the first 8 episodes quite boring.

    There are good scenes and individual stories but put it all togheter and it doesn’t really work. Too many storylines in one episode and to much jumping around. I’mm glad they changed this from S4 on, also liked that they made more episodes exciting, like EP7-10.

  60. Sean C.:

    Also, in Season 3 Jon’s plot needed more screentime than it got.

    I think we can agree on that. Jon spent not nearly enough time with the Wildlings prior to scaling the Wall. I’d like to have seen more interactions with Mance and with Wildling culture in general.

  61. Mihnea,
    Season 4 really was the best so far, wasn’t it? The deaths of Joffrey, Lysa and Tywin… so much payoff. Let’s hope Season 6 beats it!

  62. batfan:
    Something that occured to me during my memory lane rewatch, is that the number of soldiers makes no sense. Robb Stark has called all his banners. All of them. He commands the entire army of the North and yet that only sums up to 20,000 men? How is this possible?
    Tywin claims he has 60,000 Lannister soldiers. Ranly’s force of half the Baratheon and the entire Tyrell army is 100,000 men strong. How can the combined forces of all the northern houses be only 20,000 men strong? It makes no sense…

    The arguments among the book fans on this particular topic have never ceased. Common consensus appears to be that because North is vast and thinly peopled, it takes a disproportionately long time to summon all the troops. Since Robb was in hurry to free his father and sisters, he marched south with what he could get in a reasonable amount of time. Or something. Sound plausible enough, I guess.

    There is a likely numerical screw-up in this episode however. When Robb talks to his mother about a potential alliance with Renly, he says together they’ll outnumber Lannisters 2:1, which should be nowhere near the truth. Robb seems to be basing this on the initial army numbers: 100,000 Renly’s + 20,000 Robb’s is double the Lannister’s 60,000. But we know that the Lannisters already lost almost half their army that had been commanded by Jaime, so they should have no more than 30,000-40,000 by that point. Also, as Greatjon mentioned last season, Riverlords surely joined Robb after he had broken the siege of Riverrun. We have no numbers there, but it’s bound to be in the thousands. So, taking all this into account, Renly and Robb probably have at least 3 or 4 times the men compared to Tywin.

    Numbers geekery over.

  63. Yaga,

    If not for Pedro, I would rank S4 as my 2nd most liked season, after S5.

    But Pedro was amazing as Oberyn! He made a character that I thought was decent in the books, into one of my most favourite characters in the show!

    Anyway both S4 and S5 are very close too me. It’s just those amazing performances from the likes of Pedro, Dance and Peter during the trial, that make it better then S5 for me.

    This is exactly why I’m excited for Euron. A character I think is decent in the books but sometime simply over the top and badly written, I can’t wait too see what Pilou and the writers do with him.

    Him having both eyes is a very good start!!

  64. Jared,

    My thoughts exactly. When I view Season 2 as a whole, it lags a bit, all the storylines don’t quite gel together, but… and it’s a big but… individual episodes are just so damn good! 2×07 A Man Without Honor is probably the weakest — maybe my least favorite episode of the whole show so far — but the rest are a treat! How can I dis a season that gave me all that King’s Landing, Theon, Arya, and Stannis goodness (taken together these story arcs comprise, what, over 80% of screen time)? So yeah, still a very fine and enjoyable season.

    The premiere, North Remembers is next to Two Swords my favorite GoT premiere, brimming with magnificent, well-shot and well-acted scenes. Everything from Tyrion’s arrival in King’s Landing to foreboding and oppressive Dragonstone to Robb’s camp and his war council is so richly atmospheric. And the comet: a perfect touchstone to bring it all together. I need me some more Alan Taylor!

  65. Mihnea,

    Yeah, one of the things I liked in S4 especially, and to a lesser extent S5, was how they staggered the big moments across multiple episodes, instead of all piling up into one or two big episodes. (right from ep 6 to ep 10, not to mention ep2). So it felt like something exciting was happening in every episode. S5 had this from ep 8 onwards. It looks like S6 will be more like S4 in this matter. There will be big episodes right from the beginning.
    Having said that, I still liked S3 a lot, because a lot of the “slower episodes” were very well made, with some excellent moments and are among my favorite episodes (kissed by fire, the climb, and now his watch is ended). Its only S2 that I did not like much.

  66. Mr Fixit,

    I think Kit Harington had fractured his ankle just as they were about to start filming for S3, if i am not mistaken? Maybe that is the reason for his reduced screentime?

  67. I’m a huge tyrion ( Peter D) fan

    so to rank his seasons I will say
    5) season. 5

    4) season 3

    3) season 4

    2) season 1

    1) season 2

    and this episode was a perfect setup. …..for him ….
    and I wasn’t at all interested In stannis when he was introduced. …overall this episode was perfect starting episode for season 2….

  68. I find the slaughter of Robert’s bastards in this episode very difficult to watch, I do think they were a little unnecessarily graphic with it. I know it sets up Slynt’s demise, but … gosh it’s horrific.

    And whoever said they dread Shireen being introduced in S3, I agree… and actually that entire storyline is very much discoloured for me now based on the end result. Will I be cheering Stannis on again when I re-watch Blackwater, wondering ‘what if’ and ‘what might have been’? Nah, not so much…

  69. Jon Snow’s Curling Iron,
    Im heri happy they could the majority of the Dontos subplot. In the books, it didnt really work, in my opnion. It begins at the start of the second book and doesnt ger resolvd until the back hæld of the third book. Im glad however that they kept it the way they did, since We have the character without gettibg annoyed that it arena to lever pay off, until or actually pays off.

  70. Matthew The Dragon knight:
    off topic
    A cool episode title for next season would be
    The Hour of the Wolf.
    backing off now XD

    Yes!! If I don’t get a Dance of Dragons mini-series, I’d be happy with this title here.

    Or…. A Time for Wolves

  71. ghost of winterfell,

    Yes I agree with everything. Loved the Tywin/Arya interactions. I was on the edge of my seat wondering if he’d suspect who she was.

    I still think it took them a while to age up the writing for Jon like they did for the character. It felt like they were writing for a character that had Jon’s age in the books and not on the show. Still, that doesn’t account for everything.

    I think what you said about providing a contrast with Robb might be one of the reasons. Robb had to step in his father’s shoes and grow up quickly, but as the season passes and we go through the 3rd one, Robb starts to show his age and inexperience. Whereas Jon begins to develop more in the third season, especially once he climbs the wall (that’s a huge turning point for his character in my opinion). It’s an interesting contrast. In that case his growth does seem more marked (like you said) and it also (funnily enough) mirrors Kit improving as an actor in the future seasons. It’s like he grew with his character and made it his own.

    I agree about Dany’s arc (and her acting didn’t help either lol). Plus, that “Where are my dragons” line is so ridiculous. I’m still deciding between season 2 and 5 as my least favorites, but I enjoyed Jon’s arc more in 5 so I’m tempted to give that one the edge.

  72. Jon Snow’s Curling Iron:
    ghost of winterfell,

    I still think it took them a while to age up the writing for Jon like they did for the character. It felt like they were writing for a character that had Jon’s age in the books and not on the show. Still, that doesn’t account for everything.

    I think what you said about providing a contrast with Robb might be one of the reasons. Robb had to step in his father’s shoes and grow up quickly, but as the season passes and we go through the 3rd one, Robb starts to show his age and inexperience. Whereas Jon begins to develop more in the third season, especially once he climbs the wall (that’s a huge turning point for his character in my opinion). It’s an interesting contrast. In that case his growth does seem more marked (like you said) and it also (funnily enough) mirrors Kit improving as an actor in the future seasons. It’s like he grew with his character and made it his own.

    Book Jon did not fuck things up anywhere near the way show Jon did though. I think the show writers maybe wanted to give him a deeper arc in terms of his character growth, so they wanted to show him learn his way through his mistakes

    Its interesting, Robb chose love over duty, whereas Jon chose duty over love.

  73. Wimsey,

    Say “Joe and Jane HBO Subscriber” again!

    Say “Joe and Jane HBO Subscriber” again, I dare you, I double dare you, MotherF#$*er, say “Joe and Jane HBO Subscriber” one more GD time.

    -Jules Winfield, huuuuge GoT fan

  74. Jon Snow’s Curling Iron:
    ghost of winterfell,

    I still think it took them a while to age up the writing for Jon like they did for the character. It felt like they were writing for a character that had Jon’s age in the books and not on the show. Still, that doesn’t account for everything.

    I think what you said about providing a contrast with Robb might be one of the reasons. Robb had to step in his father’s shoes and grow up quickly, but as the season passes and we go through the 3rd one, Robb starts to show his age and inexperience. Whereas Jon begins to develop more in the third season, especially once he climbs the wall (that’s a huge turning point for his character in my opinion). It’s an interesting contrast. In that case his growth does seem more marked (like you said) and it also (funnily enough) mirrors Kit improving as an actor in the future seasons. It’s like he grew with his character and made it his own.

    Book Jon did not fuck things up anywhere near the way show Jon did though. I think that maybe the show writers wanted to give him a deeper arc in terms of character growth, so they wanted to show him learning his way through his mistakes?

    Its interesting, Robb chose love over duty and Jon chose duty over love.

  75. Liam is doing a lot of promoting for GOT6. I think he will have a major role to play going forward.

  76. ghost of winterfell,

    True. I’m sad a lot of the good decisions and administrative work Jon did in the NW didn’t make it on the show. I guess they didn’t see it at super entertaining for TV, but it offers a lot of insight into his character and growth. It would have been an interesting comparison to whatever Dany was doing in Meereen. My only hope is that he comes back early and we get to see that growth in season 6.

    “Love is the death of duty.” 🙂

  77. Jon Snow’s Curling Iron: Yes I agree with everything. Loved the Tywin/Arya interactions. I was on the edge of my seat wondering if he’d suspect who she was.

    He certainly worked out quickly that she was not simply some peasant girl. However, something Arya showed here was the ability to lie glibly and convincingly. In a way, I think that this was a firing of a gun hung right off in the first season: because Arya (unlike, say, Sansa) was comfortable associating with the lower classes, she understood them a lot better than would most people of her class. Could she fool another peasant? Maybe not: but she could fool another noble.

    As luck would have it (and given how much bad luck Starks have, she was bound to get some good luck!), she played on Tywin’s base instincts, too. A good man does whatever he can to further his family’s fortunes. So, although it would not occur to him that a peasant would have a good enough character to think that way, if one did, then that is what he’d do.

    Jon Snow’s Curling Iron:Plus, that “Where are my dragons” line is so ridiculous.

    How was that “ridiculous”? That is what someone would say in that circumstance. Geez, she sounded just like my mother did whenever she lost track of one of my siblings for more than 5 seconds.

  78. Matt Coleman: Joe and Jane HBO Subscriber”

    Joe and Jane HBO Subscriber, Jane and Joe HBO Subscriber
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    Er, what do I win?

  79. ghost of winterfell: Book Jon did not fuck things up anywhere near the way show Jon did though.

    Book!Jon certainly did not feel that way! He was constantly dreading that he would be remembered infamously for letting the Wildlings into Westeros. His advisors also were constantly reminding him that he should be killing them or sending them back north, and at one point one even tells Jon that Jon is committing treason by doing what he does.

    It is too bad that the show could not find analogs of Jon’s ideas about building the Watch for the future. However, and as you note, administrative stuff like that makes for pretty poor TV or film. (The Simpson’s episode skewering the Star Wars prequels has a field day with that.) To that end, I think that the Hardhome excursion was a good cinematic replacement for that: it showed Jon thinking “outside the box” and emphasized the really important dichotomy: Jon sees the White Walkers as a threat trumping that of the Wildlings, but Thorne’s and others’ hatred of the Wildlings prevents them from seeing that themselves.

  80. Wimsey,

    Good point about Arya. And she’ll definitely improve her lying skills later on with the Faceless Men. I’m interested to see how she’ll use her training. Sansa eventually learned how to lie when she covered for Littlefinger, but she still has a long way to go.

    As for Dany, it’s a combination of the line itself and how it was delivered. There’s a reason why that line gets parodied a lot.

  81. LatrineDiggerBrian: Can you give another example that is similar to Stannis, where someone is killed off camera and there is absolutely no confirmation, i.e. no shot of the body or no mention of it?

    Adriana La Cerva in The Sopranos S05E12. She is executed by Silvio Dante for being FBI informant and the last time we see her, she is running into the woods with Silvio following her with a gun. We hear two shots and that is all. Many fans speculated that Adriana was still alive and even more, the actress was listed for season 6 premiere, only to reveal that her apperiance was only a vision. When the producers were asked about her death, their response was almost identical to the one of Stannis. They didn’t want to show her death out of respect for the actress.

  82. leepfrog: LatrineDigger

    I’ve heard a lot of people say this, but the truth of the matter is, Robert M. Ball who is the artist, has absolutely no contact with the show runners or producers. He’s just an artist who was contracted by the HBO marketing team to do the art. Near 100% change that he doesn’t know any of the shows secrets. If Stannis was still alive, very few even on the production would know about it.

  83. Lord Parramandas: Adriana La Cerva in The Sopranos S05E12. She is executed by Silvio Dante for being FBI informant and the last time we see her, she is running into the woods with Silvio following her with a gun. We hear two shots and that is all. Many fans speculated that Adriana was still alive and even more, the actress was listed for season 6 premiere, only to reveal that her apperiance was only a vision. When the producers were asked about her death, their response was almost identical to the one of Stannis. They didn’twant to show her death out of respect for the actress.

    There was never any doubt in my mind that Adriana was dead. Off camera gun shots is different than an off camera sword swing. And The Sopranos wasn’t the type of series where Adrianna would’ve somehow escaped and it be left as a cliff hanger. That wouldn’t be in tune with Dave Chase’s writing of the series up until then. And Silvio was never hesitant before shooting Adrianna like Brienne was before “killing” Stannis. Go back and look at it and tell me she isn’t conveying apprehension. She even half heartedly pulls the sword out of its scabbard.

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