There’s only a month left to Game of Thrones season 6 filming, but casting notices are still rolling in. Thanks to our sources, we have two role descriptions to share with you today. The newest ones to find their way to us offer more hints at the season 6 Northern plot. One of them is reminiscent of a book character who made a big impression in A Dance with Dragons, while the other is more mysterious.
The casting notice descriptions are tucked entirely below a cut for spoilers!
There are character names attached to the roles, but we have reason to believe that the names are fake.
First up, we have:
“Boyce”: He’s a callow young nobleman in his 20’s who has been thrust into a position of power before he is ready. They’re looking for an actor using a Northern accent, and one who is physically fit, can play somewhat hot-headed and can look rugged.
Our source says the character has a couple speeches in a scene with leading cast. He’s only expected to shoot for one day- December 16th- in Northern Ireland.
Our speculation: The need for a Northern accent, and the fact that this character is filming the same day as the character below points toward him being a Northern lord, one who has just come into his title. Which one? We’re thinking this might be the new Lord Cerwyn. The Cerwyns are a Northern family. Last season, Ramsay flayed the current lord for not paying his taxes. That would give the new young lord a reason to raise havoc with the Boltons in season 6.
The second character will surely cause a great deal of speculation among fans.
“Fletcher”: He is a fat nobleman in his 60’s. He has distinctive rugged features, a Northern accent, and a distinguished air. Our source says he has a stirring speech during which he unexpectedly shifts political allegiances.
The actor is only expected to shoot for one day- the same day as the above role, on December 16th, in Northern Ireland.
Our speculation: A fat nobleman shifting alliances? If this isn’t Wyman Manderly, the Game of Thrones fandom is being trolled hard with this character. With only one day of filming, clearly the show isn’t doing the whole White Harbor plot, but I think we guessed that anyway. Perhaps this is a meeting of Northern Lords, and this is a more streamlined version of the Wyman character who made such an impression with his speech in A Dance with Dragons.
What do you think, readers?
Hodor!
HODOR!!!
Are the names shown just placeholders as to not spoil anything?
Wyman fucking Manderly aaaahhh!!!
If it’s not Wyman Manderly, I’m just going to be upset. If I can’t have Frey Pie, can I at least get a proper the north remembers…sigh
Maceless Fan,
I am seriously hoping this is Lord to fat to sit a horse! If it is then I am going to need way more than one episode with him.
Judibatt,
Yeah, and because the casting notices keep leaking…like this.
Yeah, the second one is definitely Manderly or a Manderly stand-in. Cerwyn for the other one is a great guess I hadn’t thought about. Makes sense. Interested to see how all of this plays out.
The North Remembers and the mummer’s farce is almost done.
Tis the season for bada** speeches. I hope it’s Manderly.
If it is Manderly (or an amalgamation), I shall celebrate with pie!
That’s just GOTTA be Wyman Manderly.
Not sure what makes you think the other guy’s a Cerwyin, though. He could be anyone…
Sure wish we could get t-shirts with that W and the crow….
Probably gonna get a whole lot of the Boltons consolidating power in the north and things looking bleak next season until “Fletcher” delivers his speech and it becomes apparent many northern lords are conspiring to overthrow the Boltons.
O. M. G. Holy Seven!!!!! It’s Manderly!!!!!! It just has to! I’m freaking the hell out! The speech and the specific description as “fat” . We’re getting pies for dinner yeeeeessssss!!!!
Manderly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m having a seizure of joy right now.
In a way im hoping its not him and that he is one of the other noble lords with more scenes.
This season keeps getting better and better! I seriously thought Manderly was cut but I guess not! THE NORTH REMEMBERS!!!!!
Further proof that we will be seeing crannogmen in the Battle for the North. Just about every Northern Lord is being assembled, why should the Reeds be considered a Northern House if they don’t fight in the decisive battle, especially when Stark banners are called.
Well holy shit, I totally gave up on Wyman Manderly in GoT. I figured his plot would shift to the Umbers. Good on you D and D, if this is indeed the merman!
”Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos. They infest my city like roaches, and at night I feel them crawling over me.” The fat man’s fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. “My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder’s bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with his friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter…but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home.”
This has to be the stirring speech. Manderly plays up to the Boltons and Freys, but makes his true intentions known here. I honestly thought we’d never see this, and I’m so glad.
Just noticed these two men are shooting awfully close to Christmas. Surely it’ll wrap up by the 20th of December?
… The Mummer’s Face is almost done.
Wyman Manderly !?!?! OMG YES!!!!
SEASON 6! SEASON 6! SEASON 6!
Brace yourselves brothers, The Hype is Here.
I was always hyped for season 6, I loved season 5, not as much as season 4 but I loved all the same. Season 6 is probably going to be my favorite season yet 🙂
I think they nailed it on their prediction. The fat one is Wyman Manderly, 100%. I agree that the first one is Cerwyn. Being thrust into the role of Lord makes sense.
December 16th? One of the last days of filming, then, surely.
If they’re both only filming for one day, that’s pretty much means a single-scene part. I guess there must be some sort of gathering of northern lords that one or more of Our Heroes attends to try to win support against the Boltons.
On another point, there was another casting notice for a lord a while ago who some people speculated was Manderly, and was mentioned to have a lot of dialogue in his scene. The casting notice for that part didn’t mention anything about a Northern accent, which some people contrasted with the announcements for the Smalljon and Karstark and thus argued meant he likely wasn’t a Northerner; these announcements also mentioned Northern accents, and thus would tend to back that up. So that other lord must be for some other plot.
MANDERLY!!! 😀
Also… wasn’t Sophie supposed to be filming again in December? Perhaps Sansa will be involved in this scene too…
Ah, thanks Sue – so much. You’ve made not only my week, but my month! Wyman Fucking Manderly! Wheeeeeeeeee
Big Mac,
She probably is filming in December (particularly given some of the other people, like Rupert Vansittart, who we know are filming in December), but we don’t have any indicators on that either way. That supposition was made in response to a statement that she wasn’t going to be filming in October/November which subsequently turned out to be a miscommunication, since she’s been filming recently (and may be there now, based on a recent Maisie post, though we haven’t had any sightings).
Laura,
My mistake Milady, Brace yourselves Brothers and Sisters the Hype is Here 🙂
**rubs hands together, grinning**
Eeeeexcellent….. it’s all falling into place…..
……AND IT’S PIE TIME!!!!!
I really want ‘Boyce’ to be Rhaegar Frey 😉
“The North Remembers” speech is one of my favorite parts of ADwD….to see it on screen will be amazing…
Hope it’s Wyman. Slow news week!
Yes Manderly!!
Is Brendan Gleeson too much to ask?
MANDERLY!!! YES!!! YES!! YES!!!! YES!!!!
“Our source says he has a stirring speech during which he unexpectedly shifts political allegiances.”
I wonder if its he who convinces the North to follow Jon despite his bastard standing.
Rygritte,
The actor possibly playing Cerwyn is only filming for one day.
Does anyone know how to audition for these roles by chance?
Sean C., two scenes?
Rygritte,
Brendan Gleeson? Yes, please!! Where do I sign?
Isn’t it strange that they will film only for one day? Does it mean that they will not be in the battle? Ok “Fletcher” is old and fat but “Boyce” who is young and physically fit? Unless this leading actor he will be filming is Ramsay and then we know what his fate will be.
Wyman Manderly. It has to be him. Can we expect some pies on the menu?
Rygritte,
RpCola,
I don’t think proves anything. For example Glovers (they were in the show) seems to be missing much like House Dustin etc.
Geralt of Rivia,
It doesn’t really make sense that a brother and a sister who will be in a crucial battle will not share a scene at all. Even if Sansa will not make it to CB she will have at least an exchange of few words with her brother…
Geralt of Rivia,
Sansa pretty much has to go to Castle Black, simply because (a) they set up her going there and (b) from all the castings, etc., there’s not really any viable alternative destination at this point. The guy playing the Smalljon is in 2 episodes, the guy playing Karstark in 3, in both cases one of those episodes almost definitely being episode 609 — and these two new lords are probably in only one scene together.
I sincerely hope we get to see some Frey Pies. That (along with Theon hearing his name at the wierwood) was one of the things I was disappointed was not in Season 5.
Manderly – Heck Yeah!!
George rr Martin for Wyman Manderly!
Three cheers for Lord Lamprey. It’s about bloody time we get some Great Northern Conspiracy. Though any Manderley scene without Wylla’s speech would leave me feeling rather cheated. As a great admirer of Brendan Gleeson, I hope many of you are right. Ian McNeice (65) would do nicely, though he’s softer and lacks the physical force and even gravitas Gleeson brings to every role. But then, Manderley seems rather fey, unthreatening, and even a bit foolish to people who don’t know him. Two Freys didn’t take him seriously, and they became mincemeat. The North rules, okay.
I had no idea they were making that game into a movie, and instantly thought “God, why is Gleeson stooping to something like that?”
Aaaannnd then I went over to imdb and saw the cast list. Holy shit!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2094766/
Agree he’d be perfect for Manderly, but I won’t be too picky. The idea that the character made the cut after all is fantastic!
He looks exactly too big to ride a horse.
Maceless Fan,
the north remembers, hope is talking to davos
Brian Blessed for Wyman Manderly.
Yes, please let this be Manderly, and even more so, let this be BRIAN BLESSED!! GIVE A DUMB OLD BIRD A SECOND CHANCE!!
I submitted that design…the W with the crow and watchers on the wall beneath it. I wanted it on the upper left of the front of the shirt, you know, like where the guy on the horse goes on a polo, but not quite so small. I couldn’t get it to work in the program, but someone said to submit it via email, and they’d do it up. Unfortunately, it seems to have never gone through. I sent it from yahoo, which it turns out, has some glitch in terms of using the contactus link, so it seems they never got it. Ah well, I should have figured out a way to make it work int he program on my own. It just kept ending up too small.
Anywho…as everyone else has already said, that certainly sounds like Manderly. YAY!!!
Oh, that’s definitely him.
Ian McNeice would be perfect for Manderly. He was cast as Illyrio Mopatis for the original pilot, so D & D are aware of his work. He was excellent as the Newsreader in Rome, so we know he can give a speech. No matter who gets cast, couldn’t be more thrilled by this news.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Great design! Well done. If it ever comes to fruition, I will be first in line to buy one (or two)…especially if they came in white on black and black on white. 🙂
and in agreement with all…Yes! to Manderly and hopes that he brings the Frey’d pies!
Yes! YES! YESSS!!!!! Gods be good, I am quivering like a sack of suet in anticipation!!! OH! If we get THAT speach plus the broken man (especially from Ian McShane) this season. I CANNOT! I SERIOUSLY CANNOT!!! Please be season premier this weekend… PLEASE!!!!
Ok, I’m done. I need to go pant profusely in my easy chair now.
FFFUCCKK YESS!!!!
FREY PIES PLZ
“Fletcher” How very asoiaf-ish name. Har!
McNiece looks exactly like I imagined Wayman Manderly!!
Could “Boyce” be the new Lord Karstark? I know there was that other, more prominent seeming Karstark role cast a while back, but maybe that’s meant to be Arnolf and this is the proper heir? It would make sense that he’d be inexperienced/unready if his dad was executed and his uncle took over day-to-day stuff, and to give the Karstarks a bit more depth/attention in the “Who’s gonna follow the New Starks?” politicking.
Otherwise, yeah, the new Lord Cerwyn is the only one whose role entails being inexperienced/unready.
Wyman effing Manderly!! Soooo excited for this season!! Gotta have a viewing party for this character’s episode with pie, pie and more PIE!!
Thanks to all and sundry here at WotW for a tremendous off season full of news and hype and discussion and speculation and fun!! I love you people!! Life is GOOD!!
THE NORTH REMEMBERS!! WOO-HOO!!
Wasn’t a Frey cast as a “hapless sly son to cruel father”?…
Perhaps his “hapless” is going to be a “Pie”…
Wasn’t a non-speaking role for Wendel Manderly cast for season 3 and that person was present at the red wedding? I vaguely remember reading something about that but it was so long ago.
ETA: Casting Compendium updated! http://www.bit.ly/1N0fv0m
So delighted to know that we won’t have to go without Wyman Manderly. Pie will be on my menu for sure the week of that episode!
A certain regular poster who never tires of lecturing us all that we need to give up any hope of seeing any Manderly in the show seems conspicuously quiet…
PIE!!!
#FreyPiesConfirmed
#GETHYPE
— now all we need is some Deepwood Motte, and we are good to go!!!
“Oh look, the pie!”
Yay, Manderly! I really enjoyed the Northern Conspiracy plot in the books (Winterfell Huis Clos, anyone?) and have been quietly disappointed that it had seemingly been scrapped in the show. In part, because that show omission generally means it holds less importance in the books and that just made me a little sad. This is great news to me, even if it’s only a small piece of S6.
Kilgore Tully,
The Karstark casting was outright called “Lord Karstark”, so one presumes that is indeed the actual lord. And this new guy is filming for one day in December, so there’s likely only one scene there, and the Karstark guy was described as filming in summer and fall.
SO. MANY. HYPE TRAINS. I can’t decide which one to ride…
http://imgur.com/zxLXz0o
Sean C.,
But it wasn’t originally specified as “Lord Karstark.” The original casting call was something along the lines of “Lord of a Northern House” and/or “Lord of a Northern Stronghold.”
Geralt of Rivia,
Sean C.,
It wasn’t, actually. Karstark and Umber had generic noble northern lord titles in the casting notices. But one of my sources confirmed it was Lord Karstark and Umber, and yes, this was quite a while ago- those scenes have already been filmed.
WYMAN! Oh hell yes.
ok at this point who isn’t hyped for Season 6
and any other ideas on who that other lord ? not talking About Manderly.
Hell.
Yes.
Manderly.
Sue the Fury,
Like, confirmed to be “The Heir of Karhold” Lord Karstark, or could that be a Karstark male and Castellan of Karhold who is referred to as “Lord Karstark” out of respect?
Sorry to pick nits when I do agree that new Cerwyn is very likely. It just strikes me that the Karstarks would be the most likely Northern family to have an internal disagreement about where to side (both in terms of reference to the books and in-show set up), if the show wanted to get into that.
Manderly Pie of Goodness and yummy word-salad of excitement…
Brendan Gleeson would be so awesome I’d turn my skin inside-out…
The North remembers is too good a line to leave out of the show; someone will use it, no matter how.
Could this be why they genderswapped Jonelle Cerwyn to “son of Lord Cerwyn” back in Season 5?
I sure hope so, I think her job is to get Northern Lords to help, I also hope we get Wyla’s speech.
Though I like Davos, I think it be more stirring if the words are said to an actual Stark.
Yeah I have hopes it’s actually Sansa, to reinforce the old ladies words to Lady Stark.
Makes me thin that their might be a :Northern Conspiracy” in the air.
Just thinking, Sansa knows Rickon and Bran are alive, what if she and Theon split, and Sansa runs into Manderly or other lord and have one of them look for Rickon, they did not cast Wex, they can give that part to Sansa; or Sansa and Theon both meet Manderly and Sansa tells them Theon saved her, guaranteeing Theon safe passage home.
Since Brienne looks to be in the RL she can’t do Davos part, and Davos is at the wall, so it would be tougher for him to meet Manderly unless he accompanies Sansa.
Genderswapped? If I remember right, lord Cerwyn also has a son in the books.
And yes, I’ve read your (subjective) article about position of women on GoT Wiki
I never cared much about Manderly – the book arc was just boring to me, it was just Davos sitting in a cell AGAIN. But if it’s just one day of filming, and if it makes others happy, I’m OK with it.
They can make up for him by casting some hot-while-rugged Northern candy as the other one. (Seriously, from all the Dothraki casting updates, it’s looking more and more likely that Daenerys is building herself a harem, not an army… and I totally approve! 😀 )
April/May cannot come soon enough! 🙂
Yes! May they cast an awesome actor
HOLY FUCKING MANDERLY!!!!!!!!!!! Yessssssss!!!!!!!! This is my favorite news so far. Season 6 is going to be amazing. This is what I’ve been waiting for!!
All my chins are shaking in excitement.
But will we get pies? I dunno…..
Firannion,
I’m certain you are talking about me. But I’ll let you know that I’m not posting for other reasons, my new job the biggest.
Also with 1 day of filming I’m still skeptical, and if this is Mandarly he will surely have very limited screen-time. Wich will only anger most of you.
I’m glad the people who wanted him are happy, but I’m still not convinced.
I’ll wait for Sue too confirm this, like she did with Umber/Karstark, if possible.
Better too be safe, then join the ”hype” train and be dissapointed.
Also, I never told anyone what they should hope for or not, I always presented my opinion, with the information we had, if we get more information then I will change my opinion accordingly.
Yaga,
Exactly my opinion.
I’m not really excited for this, but I don’t mind it either.
Glad people are happy, and hope they get what they want..Altough with 1 day of filming I doubt it.
I expect it’s actually going to be Wyman Manderly.
But I understand the need for streamlining. I guess it’s gonna be a short speech, akin to Loboda’s in Hardhome, for example. More like a wink to the fans, but I’m glad they include it !
Arkash,
If this ends up being Mandarly, then this is the most likely scenario, in my opinion.
EDIT; Think the speach is a given if he is in, doubt will get the
Hope we get the wyman speech and the Meribald speech.
This will be amazing.
Aguero,
This little scenario started taking shape, couple of weaks ago, in my head.
I think McShane will be Maribald, perhaps they will give him a bit of Elder Brother aswell, seams like adaptation 101 here in my opinion.
And I think he will give the speach too
Not sure if spoilers where neccesary here, but better sure then sorry.
Mihnea,
I agree. With only one day of filming, I doubt his role will be as significant as everyone assume and many people on this site seem to be overhyped.
Personally I liked lord Manderly in the books (at least his scene with Davos) but with Stannis being dead and Rickon not being on Skagos, his role will probably be just a cameo – a “nod” to book readers.
Last season we had a plot set on Winterhell himself and there were no noblelords, just a Ramsay allusion. Suddenly we had tons of northerns. We had only the Old Lady Remembers and the Loyal Old Man. Why they didn’t change that with a Lady Dustin of somesort?
Somehow, I had the feel this is implying this people are unite now under Jon/Bran/Rickon’s behalf instead of Farya/Sansa/Jeynsa… Shame.
Lord Parramandas,
Yup, seams the most likely possibility.
I still think Umber will take Mandarly’s role, with Rickons story, I mean.
Delighted that Manderly is in!
Fantastic character. Love the way he emerges from the shadows in ADWD.
I’m a huge fan of Brendan Gleeson, and he would do a great job of course. I’ve always doubted whether the role is (thus far) too brief for an actor of his calibre and renown though. And with all the White Harbour plot cut, and an appearance in only one episode, doesn’t it become even less likely Gleeson is attainable?
SlayerNina,
Shame? What shame exactly? If I remembet right, lord Manderly ordered Davos to find RICKON. And you don’t know what is Sansa’s role this season. Stop being such a downer.
Please D&D let it be the lord lamprey!
Lord Parramandas,
Don’t mind her, she just comes here too complain, she isn’t even going to watch this season..
SlayerNina,
Well, to be fair, there’s a chance and a possibility that the people in the books will rally for Rickon as well, as soon as Davos finds him. Sexists gonna sexist, what you gonna do?
Though that’s partly why I hope that Rickon will end up dying, to make the girls’ inheritance indubitable.
So we have house Umber, Karstark, Cerwyn, Manderly, Mormont, Hornwood making an appearance next season…. hype train!
As a little exercise, I tried to turn Manderly’s speech into something more succint and appropriate for the TV show, both in terms of length and references. The only assumptions are that Davos is still his interlocutor, and that there will still be some context regarding Wyman’s sons, the dead and the captive, though I admit that may be too much of an assumption.
Though the “mummer’s farce” line is a classic among some book readers, and I enjoy it myself, I kind of doubt it will remain intact, even if the rest of the speech is pretty much the same. “This farce”, “this fools’ farce”… pretty much anything would sound better on the show, considering the word “mummer” has been used like one or twice, and not since the early seasons.
In the books you don’t know if stannis is going to win against the boltons or not but maybe he wins it in the book because the manderly’s changed side but in the show they wanted jon to win against the boltons so i think they might make the same stannis story in the book but instead of stannis jon will be leading the army
sorry for my english btw
Luka Nieto,
I’m pretty sure they had plans to stay closer to the book with the Manderlys, and for whatever reason changed them. They actualy cast Wendel Manderly and had him get killed at the Red Wedding, except then decided to cut out all of his dialog and basically make him an extra. The only people who ended up knowing he was there were the eagle-eyed book readers who caught a glimpse of the Manderly sigil on a corpse for a brief moment.
I wonder if they decided to cut this plot in order to fit things into 7 seasons, and now that it seems to be going 8, they are putting at least part of it back in?
I like your adaptation, with the exception that I think the speech will be delivered to any Starks that are present since that will maximize the screen impact of the line “the North remembers”.
As for “mummer’s farce”, remember that the “mummer’s troupe” from the Mercy chapter in Winds of Winter is cast on the show for next season; if they call them “mummers” instead of actors in the show, the “mummer” reference in the speech is solved.
I think you’re essentially correct; that after they decided on the 8th season, they may have restructured aspects of the 6th season. No way they would be doing the Siege of Riverrun as late as episode 6.08 and have Danny still stuck on Essos by all indications by the time the end of the 6th season rolls around per current spoilers if they were only doing 7 seasons.
Sue the Fury,
Do you know who’s playing Damphair yet? That one has me most curious. I’ve heard nothing, but I’m really excited for some Kraken summoning and would love to know if any Name got the role!
I have not read the books, but the speech sounds epic. I am so looking forward to season 6.
We are going to get THE speech from Manderly??!! I am dancing with joy!! Since it is only for one episode, maybe, the season will end with words…THE NORTH REMEBERS!
Not to poo poo the Manderly hype…but anyone think it could just be one of the Umber characters? Seems like past reports stated Umber will be fighting for the Boltons, but I think we all know that’s BS (or terribly bad writing). I feel like the Umber party has to change allegiances.
Like others I reckon Ian McNeice would be great for “Fletcher” but I’d like to put in a word for the actor Paul Brooke. He’s the right age and shape, is the father of Tom Brooke(who played one of the Freys – lovely ironic casting if he’s Wyman Manderly) and he played the Rancor keeper in Return of the Jedi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Brooke
If it is Manderly it’s still dissapointing because of how little screentime he is going to have, which is definetely not enough for frey pies. Sorry guys.
In terms of actors Ian McNeice sounds like the best suggestion. I don’t just want a fat Wyman, I want an obese, jolly looking, underestimated merman we all love. Brendan Gleeson and Brian Blessed have very imposing, powerful and piercing looks. They would fit an Umber more.
Lord Parramandas,
Cley Cerwyn died at the Sack of Winterfell. Castle Cerwyn is currently ruled by Jonelle Cerwyn, his sister.
I honestly think so as well, but I wanted to have as few assumptions and changes as possible. It’d only change one line, anyway.
He had like four scenes in ADWD, if I recall correctly: two with Davos in White Harbor and two in Winterfell. Even if they were pretty much faithful to the book, maybe amalgamating his two scenes with Davos into one, the one day of filming for the character wouldn’t be too little time to give us a decent amount of Manderly’s material from ADWD. However, can agree that the Frey pies are in all likelihood out, alongside all the Winterfell business.
Anyway, this is probably all mixed in with TWOW material, so the context of the scene will probably be pretty different, even if the point is the same.
And I thought this was going to be another boring day.
Luka Nieto,
I love what you did with the speech.
And it is such a good point about Davos. It would actually make more sense in the show to have this speech delivered to a sort of council of the Northern Lords (or x options) instead of Davos alone.
George,
I think that Davos will travel with Sansa to find Rickon and do politics with Northern Lords. La Sansa liberata will make it easier for the willing NL to march under Jon Snow Also she has to have a kind of protector and diplomat like Davos with her. It will make easier for him to forget Shireen and the audience might feel much more relieved that Sansa is in good hands…
dothrakian raven,
That’s actoully quite good. Would like too see Davos with Sansa.
Altough I still think he will be with Jon. Perhaps after Jon and Sansa meet?
Tywin of the Hill,
Yeah but Clay Cerwyn didn’t die on the show. He never appeared. So he’s still the heir (and now presumed lord) of Cerwyn. No genderswapping needed. It’s like how we never saw Smalljon in s3 so now we do, alive in s6. Same deal.
YES!
Manderly???… OMG, Season 6 looks EPIC!!!
Parramandas,
Mihnea,
I almost don’t agree 🙂 Sure, a day of filming in TV is about 4 to 6 minutes on screen. That’s not a lot but it can be enough to make an impression. I don’t think Olenna Tyrrel had much screen time the first time we saw her ?
And then someone said in the comments said :
Simeon
That could explain it. In just 4 to 6 minutes of screen time in one episode – (remember that proportionaly that is still a fair amount of screentime for a 55 min/1hour episode) – Manderly can make a significant impact.
Or 4/6min of screen time can be divided in two episodes.
And then we might see him again in season 7…
#justathought
Still I wonder how much screen time they really shoot in a day. It varies so much in tv from 4 to 6 minutes on average whereas cinema is pretty much the same 1min30 to 2 minutes per day. Anyone knows if D&D have specified anything about that ?
Mihnea,
It all depends on how they will do the whole Jon2 thing. There are questions.
Anyway I think that CB will be as lively with more than the usual boring resident cast as it was in the beginning of S5: Sansa, Brienne, Melissandre Davos, possibly Theon and of course Wun Wun… Furthermore when it comes to Sansa this is the momentum to solidify her as the political animal she is destined to be. There can be no other. Therefore she will be actively involved in the whole process of summoning the NL and I assume that it is not going to be easy for her. Then we will have the battle and then the reunion with LF…
Mihnea, I see this a lot from your posts
🙂
I for one think that Sansa hearing the speech from Manderly would be more dramatic plus actually fit better with the video medium then Davos, I like Davos; but I like Sansa even more and her convincing the Northern Lords would flow better knowing one of Neds girls is alive and seeking out her brothers.
come to think of it, when Liam states Sansa ( Sophie) is going to have a hell of an arc, this may be why.
By the way this link
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U9RWBql7YV3FMtOEqLw_pPDTKvNTDGxLrBP-6d_-F1g/edit
is excellent! Thank you and very well done!
I think Roose will be killed by these guys … Bolton pye is coming.
grailking,
Thanks! Really have a hard time spelling some words! Will correct myself!
Also I agree, I don’t think the speach will be delivered too Davos, I’m not sure who will hear it, but Sansa is a nice guess.
I’m really hoping for a reunion scene, at the end of which she very politely asks him if he wouldn’t mind killing her husband for her.
Hariette Tuttle,
This is what has me most excited.
This show frequently has characters appear in minor roles/1 episode one season, only for them to have bigger roles later, ala Berric, Podrick, Yezzan, Walder Frey, Rickon, Mossador, Yunkai zo Whatshisface, hopefully Doran, Ros, Olyvar, Marei (can’t believe she was around since season 1), Othell Yarwick (also same actor in season 1), Ser Meryn, hopefully Ser Ilyn.
Sure I’m forgetting some, but I really hope that Manderly joins the above list for future seasons, especially now that they have the budget to actually pay actors!
Yaga,
So you want rickon to die just so sansa can be relevant? Sansa is in limbo in this story, she is likely to die soon, she will never be the badass u guys want, some people are always going to be victims and losing her direwolf basically means she has lost her connection as a stark. Take ur feminist agenda somewhere else
Luka Nieto,
Umm he explained in the article why he thought it could be a Cerwyn. His thoughts actually make great sense. Ramsay killed the previous Lord Cerwyn in Season 5. The character is titled as a young man thrust into power. Can’t think of anyone else in the North that would fit that has been mentioned.
RpCola,
I don’t think Stark banners are being called. Secretly the Stark banners are coming together but they are not called. Also, no one has seen or spoken to the Reeds since Rob dispatched him to hold the neck which he has successfully done.
Stargaryen,
Thanks for the support, but I’m a she. “Sue” is usually a woman’s a name. 🙂
Has anyone made the WatchersOfKit website yet?
Dude, chill. We all have our show favorites.
Wyman Manderly and Howland Reed are by far my two most anticipated characters that haven’t yet shown up. I just hope that the one day of filming leaves the door open for a bigger Manderly role in future seasons.
OMG, I am so hyped…Apr/May seem so far away:(
It has to be Manderly and I am so psyched!
THE NORTH REMEMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Season 6 will be incredible!! Pieces falling into place. The missing part for the Northmen to come together to support “Jon Stark-aryen” is our still unseen but always present Crannogmen Reed. He is the only living participant to the Tower of Joy besides Jon. Being brought back to life isn’t enough (if that makes any sense). Reed seals the deal. He has to be present for this rally!!!! Does Bran summon him?
Oh and seeing Ramsey Bolton getting flayed on screen for at least 10 seconds would be pretty sweet too.
I agree with some of the other posters that Davos might go with Sansa. It will be like this:
Jon: Davos, quite being mopey and go see if you can’t bring these Northern lords to our side. Also, I need to keep you away from Mel.
Davos: Okay.
Sansa: I am going too. He is not a Northman, and they will be more likely to side with us if a Stark shows up.
Davos: Please don’t come. I already failed Shireen. I don’t want there to be less princesses in the world.
Sansa: Fewer.
Davos: Let’s go!
Newbietothegame,
I don’t even hate sansa, but you can’t wish death on another character just so the character you like can become queen of the north, especially when she hasn’t shown any qualities that would lead us to believe she is some bad-ass Joan of Arc character now. It is obvious that the northerners would rather rally around a male air than a female
Stargaryen,
Sue is a she. And her speculation does make a lot of sense; it fits. I was just pointing out it’s much less clear than the other description, which screams Manderly, while the boy Lord could be anyone, maybe invented. Cerwyn fits, though, I’ll grant you.
This is where people are so irritating in comments. You have me for 3/4 of this. But then you bring up a “feminist agenda”? Come on, relax.
Off-Topic Otto,
sorry I just got annoyed that someone wanted little rickon killed off like it’s nothing, just so sansa can be more relevant lol. I’ll be more politically correct next time
This news deserve a pie !!!
Also, I think we need at least another wilding character besides Tormund. I already gave up my hope of Val showing up (which confirms my fears that she won’t play a significant role in Winds of Winter), and it’s kind of unfair, since they gave Daenerys a harem this season.
FreeParking,
thumbs up.
Actually they can, it’s a fictitious story in a fictional land with fictitious characters.
This being said, Sansa being bad ass compare to say Arya being bad ass are two different things, both will handle the revenge for house Stark but from two different angles warrior side is all Arya, it’s the political bad ass the Starks lack, at least as far back as Rickard Stark and this would be Sansa’s part, there is enough written in the books to show she is more than capable for the role.
As far as dying there’s enough written in the stories that any and all these Starks can die, Sansa wasn’t guaranteed death just like she’s not guaranteed to survive the series.
Even when Paris said GRRM can’t kill Arya and he was questioned on Arya being safe he said he just told Paris that, so yeah even Arya isn’t a sure bet.
Brendan Gleeson and especially Ian McNiece would both be inspired choices for “Fletcher” and as we know, they tried to cast McNiece before for Illyrio, but he wasn’t available. Gleeson’s possibly unavailable, even for 1 day, given his filming schedule. Imo, McNiece may have the inside track on the part.
My choice: Brian Blessed, who at 79 is above the casting age range, but just imagine hearing that voice!
Now who would they cast as Wylla?
grailking,
yes technically you can wish death on any fictitious character, but if everyone supports the starks, why would anyone want a stark to die so another one can be uplifted, especially just because the stark is female.
Chuff it! I’m just going to wait for Season 6 to air. Plus, all anyone can do is wait for the next book.
oh wow…i so hope we get some
I can think of at least one boy named Sue ;P
Part of the problem is George left him out due to his age, a POV or a look at Osha once or twice in the books would keep him in peoples mind.
I see more people saying no more Stark deaths then calling for another, though Sansa seems to garner the most, reason for Rickon is because he’s been put aside so long with no indication of what he’s going through that some people lost any emotional tie with him, from a writing view and also political tension view his death would be shocking and on par with Neds and the Red Wedding, along with maybe history repeating it’s self with the Starks having to continue through a female to provide a future male.
Either way it’s a make believe story, I root for no more Stark deaths, if Sansa dies I will weep, finish ASOIAF then never read another GRRM book again. LOL.
Wilber’s Forza Danza,
Which will most likely be out before season 6.
I wonder how the Oldtown castings managed to get away from you, Sue
grailking,
Yea I can see how that makes people disconnect from rickon, I just want him to be called the king in the north, so maybe I also have my own bias like the people that want sansa in that position. It’s just opinions really lol
dothrakian raven,
I think that Jon will also be involved in the whole convincing the NL process. Mainly because he comes with a lot of baggage which will need to be cleared before the battles. These NL s will have to accept the facts that, first, he will be leading this battle as a Stark, second that he has deserted the NW and that he had a good reason for doing so. Third, that he is leading an army of wildlings, their biggest enemies for the past housands of years, through their lands. They would probably demand to know why these wildlings were let through the Wall in the first place, in which case they will need to be given some explanation of the coming WW threat, which is the most important thing here. And Jon would be the only one who would be able to convince them of this.
Wyman made my morning 🙂 Thank you Sue!
Lord Parramandas,
Well, I found more reasonable to introduce new northern lords on a nothern plot placed in the North instead on a future battle/meeting at the Wall. It would have more impact or can be used to build some propper political stuff instead of having the Winterfell plot featuring Ramsay’s being crazy, Myranda’s jealosy or an unnamed extra giving one of the most iconic phrases of the saga… They were not just to find Rickon or send Davos to find Rickon, you know.
It’s like when the Bolton’s (huge) army appeared onscreen. Where they were hidding those soldiers?
Not need to be rude.
Maybe there was not much to catch to begin with —Maybe there’s only one or two proper characters in the Citadel, and the rest are just there in the background, as extras or featured extras with a few lines. I would be shocked if that storyline was chock-full of relevant characters, both in the books and especially the show. Anyway, WOTW reported on a scene being filmed with Sam and a maester in Girona, so that’s at least one Oldtown character right there, whoever it was. That said, I wouldn’t expect characters such as Marwyn or Sarella unless we hear something that points to their inclusion.
Lord of Bones,
I think the problem is Rickon is boring as hell and didn’t had any character trait excepting “a cool warg” and “the little Stark”. And some people can be pissed if he inherits just for being male, his apparition felt cheaped if it solves all the problems of the North or because for his “fault” we didn’t see more of Osha.
How is that unfair? Daenerys is one of the two most important characters in the overarching story. Val is an incidental character: her sole purpose is to give Jon more internal fits about what the right things to do might be. However, as Jon has those in spades without her, Val is quite expendable.
Arya is one of the primary protagonists carrying the over-arching story of the series. She could die at the climax, but not before then. At this point, the surviving protagonists from Thrones sort of have to stay there until the end: otherwise, the series will just be a collection of stories rather than also being it’s own story.
I think that people also are misplacing their concerns. Whether the problems of the North ever get solved or whether we see more of Osha really are not big issues for the series. Neither Rickon nor Osha are main characters, and their sole purposes (like the issues in the North) are to present the main characters with different quandaries. Ultimately, those quandaries have to be steps along the way of the big picture questions involving the Walkers, R’hllor, etc. But that is all they are: steps for the main characters (particularly the Big 5 or 6).
Because it is their opinion? Just because it may not be popular with you or others, doesn’t make it not relevant to the person who commented. *shrug*
LOL. I will pay for this. My headcanon is Davos cheerleading at Dragonstone with a stag hat on his head.
I would expect them all to be one or two line Maester X and Maester Y characters. Indeed, Sam himself is only barely above a supporting character: somehow, the Oldtown stuff has to be tied quickly to one of the really important characters. (Who and how, I have no idea!)
The North Remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done.
I know that scenario is totally possible (especially when in the books they don’t know where is Sansa, if she’s alive or if she’s still “a Stark”). A huge turndown, but well.
My worries are about if in the show they’re gonna have Sansa being a victim, a plot device or crying and being passive again and Rickon’s gonna appear riding Shaggydog with a sword in hand.
It’s the idea of “I’m gonna do an awesome character giving him awesome skills so he/she’s more awesome”, like when they erased Tyrion’s journey and Barristan to have only Tyrion at the counsel, Arya changing faces (the most difficult magic on Westeros and she mastered it on three episodes) or Dany’s pet dragons. To me, it felt rushed and manipulative.
I’m happy to hear that Wyman Manderly will play a role this season, even if it’s only a brief one. Having him potentially deliver his game-changing speech at a secret council of Northern Lords – and perhaps in the presence of a true Stark – strikes me as a strong compromise between two less-palatable extremes. I was fully prepared for the fan-favorite character to be excluded entirely, or merged him with the Umbers – a completely justifiable condensation, but an unfortunate one. Yet while I held out hope that Manderly might appear, I did not want the show to spend an inordinate amount of screentime to Davos’s White Harbor/Skagos sidequest, which previous narrative developments (sending Rickon to Last Hearth, the death of Stannis) have rendered unnecessary. This development balances those two concerns nicely. The elegance of adaptation at work!
I also think it would be great if “Boyce” was indeed the new Lord Cerwyn. I always enjoy those little moments of in-show continuity when something that was casually referenced in a previous season becomes relevant later. Ramsay flaying the Cerwyns for tax evasion and installing their son as their successor could have served quite effectively as a passing example of how the Boltons deal with defiant vassals. But if the new Lord Cerwyn makes an appearance this season and winds up playing a role, however small, in bringing Ramsay down? That’s damn cool.
It’s also possible that he’s a representative of one of the other Northern houses that we know will take part in the big battle (e.g. the Hornwoods), but I like the Cerwyn speculation much better.
So, will the speech be post snowbowl, pre? to whom?
He has to be found / show up first; that sure looks like what Sansa wants (in show), all things indicate she cares for her family a lot in show and book.
I always stated Sansa and Arya would be responsible to getting House Stark back, Arya will take out enemies, Sansa forms the alliances or manipulates the political.
Hope I’m somewhat right.
Wimsey,
Yet, you like to read about the characters you like or found interesting, even if they’re not fanfavourites, important to the plot or main characters.
Sean C.,
So maybe she will witness his resurrection, revival, reborn or whatever we want to call it. Might be important. I just think it’s way too obvious, but one way or the other there will be Stark reunion. Last Hearth seems to be unlikely, but still it’s ahrd to get from Winterfell in this weather and stuff. Also Sansa and Theon will have to seprated o nthe way there, because Jon would gladly kill him for what he did to Robb and his family.
Wimsey,
It would be fun to have her in the show, but that’s unlikely now. Karsi was the closest to book Val. Val (Ice) and Mel (Fire). In my mind Val will play some role in TWOW. There is something about her and I think she will play key role in his resurrection, revival or reborn, but not like many people think love interest for Jon.
Just throwing it out there, not because I think it will happen but because it fits your criteria: the pet theory of a Youtuber I follow (“Enchantment of Eternity”) is that Tyrion will be sent to Oldtown by Dany for some reason or another, presumably something to do with dragons. I think something like that would be very much out of left field for Tyrion’s character, but it would fulfill your criteria that, if something relevant is to happen at Oldtown, it should involve more characters (and more important characters) than Sam.
Though Sam is a “main character” in the sense that he is a POV in the books and he’s part of the show’s starring cast, it’s true that he’s not really one of the story’s main characters. However, I have no trouble following Sam’s adventures in Oldtown on his own, because it’s not like I expect him to have a lot of screentime —but I do expect it to be significant: as usual, Sam and his knowledge will serve as a tool in Jon’s armament. In other words, Sam will probably find out something or other about the White Walkers.
Lord of Bones,
Dude, like the others told you – chill. Sansa is one of the characters I identify with (Arya being the other, lol), so obviously I want to get her in position of power at the end of her story. If that can happen with Rickon alive, all the better. It’s just that if she gets beaten, threatened, victimised and raped and her happy end is that her little brother, a virtual non-entity in both the books and the show, inherits… Well, this’ll be disappointing/annoying. And, like you yourself said – the northern lords are pretty sexist, and so as long as Rickon lives, they will probably prefer him. So… the calculus is simple.
SlayerNina,
I don’t think it’s Rickon you should be concerned with (well, maybe in the books!). Jon, though? Certainly.
My theory is that
Then, it’s to whoever wins against Euron for him. Young Griff or Dany.
e: uh, future book speculation including possible spoilers, I guess
I hoped we would see this this season, but nothing that points to a sack of Oldtown has been filmed, that we know of. Maybe it’s just going to be CGI ships and little else, as Sam and Euron alone certainly don’t warrant an elaborate action setpiece… but I wouldn’t hold my breath. I just think he we’d have heard something by now if the sack was to take place this season.
Nothing comes to mind. I wouldn’t hold my breath, either. Just feel lucky we got Wyman. Just as you did, I thought the Umbers were going to take over his role. Anyway, hopefully we’ll get some kickass Northern women if there’s some sort of meeting of Stark loyalists. Anyone holding out hope for a Lyanna Mormont cameo? I mean, it’s like the only explicitly Stark loyalist house in the show, as of season five, and we know Mormont soldiers will fight in the Battle of the Bastards, so it’s not THAT far from the realm of possibilities. 😛
Osha, Nymeria, Yara, Syrio and Loras in some kind of convention 🙂
Finn has shaved his hair
https://instagram.com/p/9_Xd8xDyyO/
Different medium, they can’t do every nuance of the book, it’s impossible; we be looking at a 20 year saga, I’m near GRRM age, I may not have 20 more years. :/
Sansa as replacement for Jeyne I understood, wasn’t 100% for it but it did make it more engrossing and kept people engaged in her story line ( which is the North or aiding the North), speeding Arya’s faceless man situation still fits the story still shows she rushes things etc.
SlayerNina,
Why is it a shame? Haven’t we’ve been told that most houses, Dorne excluded, do favor sons inheriting before daughters? The northern lords were not rallying for Arya, did you pay attention to what they were actually saying? They were rallying for “the NED’s” little girl. See the difference? Everything they were doing, everything they were willing to do, they were doing in Ned’s name. They loved Ned and by extension his children. By law and custom, Robb’s heir (without acknowledging his will) is Brandon Stark. Then comes Rickon, only then Sansa and last Arya. In times of war, you take those haggard and hardened men of winter and tell me they won’t rather rally behind a male Stark, especially one that is battle ready? I don’t see the shame, especially because it seems you are implying the shame rests with the show producers yet they are only following what has already been established in the books. Westeros is a patriarchal society with a bunch of sexists customs, else Brienne would have been made a knight ages ago. I see more shame in Balon Greyjoy overlooking Asha for the Sea Stone Chair because Asha is the type of leader the Iron Born really need and he knows it but won’t named her his heir because she’s a woman. That is truly a shame. Anyway, as for your implied criticism of how the producers are handling this, you have to remember that they had plan for 7 seasons and adjusted the story to that timeline. Then the money people probably beg, negotiated strongly enough that they gave in to the 8th season they did not seem willing to commit to. One additional season gives them more time to try to incorporate more subplots and they decided that the North is where they are willing to do that. And who can blame them, in the end the North is where all will be decided it seems.
I guess I am overly interested in the Oldtown events because of what we don’t know (and it’s been 10 years since we read anything, dammit!). So much speculation, like Maester conspiracies, “Pate”‘s agenda, Alleras/Sarella’s agenda, etc., have dominated the boards. The World book and other Targ stories dance around magical/historical truths surrounding the info in Oldtown so much, it is obvious that the author wants those gaping holes to be there, to be uncovered and communicated (hopefully) by Sam. I simply can’t imagine his adventure to be a red herring or unimportant. I anxiously await any news from Oldtown…
#TheSouthAlsoRemembers!
Btw, how in the world would Dany know anything about Oldtown?
Luka Nieto,
I thought that at least one Archmaester-type character would be cast, if only for expositional purposes early in the season. The “Distinguished Man” in his 60’s or 70’s who was mentioned in a casting call about a month ago seemed like he might be such a character. But I agree that Oldtown isn’t likely to feature as many new characters as some might hope, especially because we know that Sam and Gilly will travel to Horn Hill for at least part of the season.
It’s not ideal, but it could work. The show only has so much time and money that it can devote to elaborate battle scenes, and it looks like most of this year’s budget is going towards making the Northern battle one of the most spectacular sequences that we’ve ever seen. I’m all in favor of that, even if they have to tighten their belts and reduce the scale of some other action scenes in order to achieve that goal. We already know that the siege of Riverrun will be a fairly involved sequence, and there’s also the wildcard of whatever climactic conflict is going to happen out East, which we haven’t heard anything about yet either. The potential Oldtown assault definitely seems to be lower in the pecking order. Still, as long as the end result is edited more smoothly than Yara’s aforementioned attack on the Dreadfort, I think most people would be OK with that trade-off.
However, as you say, we’ve heard nothing about a potential Oldtown raid so far, so we shouldn’t get too far ahead of ourselves. 🙂
I want Wyla’s speech also, it be nice to have a young Stark actually hear the history the Manderlys and their respect for House Stark.
ghost of winterfell,
I agree that Jon will have to work on it as well but not before the CB situation is settled somehow. It is not clear if Jon will talk to Sansa about WWs and if so how she will react to this. I mean Sansa’s ascend to politics is not going to be like a sudden appearance of a born politician. She has just escaped from a horror, she will most probably find a brother and a family member again, in short she will need some time to get in the position to understand the whole picture, time which she might as well spend in the more limited Northern politics with Davos. It is Jon who has the bigger picture, that is WW threat at his disposal and it is a question how he is going to work on it. Will he choose to persuade the NLs to accept his and the Wildlings contribution in their fight against the usurpers of the North on the ground of their numbers or will he try to warn them for the danger behind the Wall? Or maybe both? Anyway it seems more suitable to send Sansa and Davos first t to do the groundwork.
Surely there will be an archmaster, hopefully Marwyn but that’s just wishful thinking. Sam has to meet someone when he arrives at the Citadel. The casting call you mentioned describes a distinguished man in his sixties or seventies, white-haired, with aristocratic features, great intensity and natural authority. It certainly fits the bill! This character could be anyone, really, but noblemen are usually described as such in the casting calls, and this one wasn’t. So it could well be an archmaester.
I think that with however many battles we’ll be seeing throughout/at the end of this season, just a “Sam is in Oldtown, sees CGI ships on horizon, cut to black/next scene, next year we see the aftermath” would be enough. My point was more in regards to ‘whom will you attach Sam to next’, not how to realise this visually.
I think that the more interesting question is, will we see Gilly with him. On one hand, he promised her that they won’t be separated; on the other, her arc as Sam’s love interest is basically done with, isn’t it? So it’s either drop out of the narrative for her or drop dead.
e: I mean, I just hope the story goes that he drops her safely off with his family, and *then* goes to the next plot point, *not* that she insists on going with him and then dies randomly because now he has to act as foil for maesters and pirates, and there isn’t enough screentime for interactions with her.
Danny,
You said, Ned’s little girl. But it was his girl, girl they have met (and Lady Dustin said that Farya’s cries -yes, because they know Jeyne was not Arya- were more horrible than an army attacking them or something like that). Ralling for Jon’s (a virtually stranger)… it’s not the same vibe.
And yes, Westeros is horrible, awful and sexist. But I don’t understand the point of making it even more horrible, awful and sexist. That’s not Westeros, is a living hell in which every nice interaction had disappeared or changed by a mean interaction. Why Arya didn’t enter at the Temple at the first try, for example? What was the point of having her waiting outside? What was the point of being almost attacked by some strangers of the street, and then Jaqen “saves” her? What was the point of making the FM girl being mean to Arya? What was the point of the catcallers? What was the point of stablish Trant as a paedo? And so on with every character and plot.
And about how they handed things… Less screentime on brothels, generic battles, tertiary/quaternary characters, added plots or develop their original characters can do miracles, just saying 😉 Given that most of the scenes are around 3-5 minutes… Well, Hardhome was awesome, but nothing but fireworks. That was more than Dorne or Arya in 10 episodes. If they don’t have time enough to stick to main characters, they shouldn’t use it in less important things.
I mean unfair for Jon, every time a wildling chick is into him, she dies !! Besides Val is cool, “up, up, ser kneeler”
And also unfair for me, I’m certainly not looking forward to a season full of half-naked dothraki male models, I want some northerner chicks 😛
The thing is, neither the wildlings nor the Starks represent Ice, Targs & Rhollor= Fire is pretty clear, but to the wildlings/Starks the Ice is bad, a thing of the others/walkers, “winter is coming”= “prepare yourself, shit’s gonna get ugly”
We know that the Targs:
but I fail to see where is the whole Ice part in the Starks (warging is a CotF thing). And it must be important, since, well, it’s called Song of Ice and Fire
Yaga,
I’m sorry if I came off aggressive, but what if sansa’s fate is to always be a victim. Remember the stark children have a great connection with their direwolves, this is even more apparent in the books. Lady is dead and it occurred because sansa took the side of the lannisters over her family. This is just my theory, but maybe she is meant to represent a character that is in purgatory or limbo, never fully broken, but also not completely redeemed and always needing someone for assistance and support. I’m not saying it is great story-telling or what people would like, but it could be direction of her story, especially in the books. I can see them changing things in the show though
When Ramsay told Roose his clash with the Cerwyn’s, I somehow pictured the new Lord Cerwyn as
Yaga,
I don’t think her arc is “done” just because they are more or less a couple now. Indeed, that’s generally considered the start of a new arc, so to speak. Gilly is probably the closest thing to a true civilian among the main cast, and is unlikely to ever be central to events, but I think she is a valuable piece of the narrative tapestry precisely because she’s so different in that regard.
I have a hard time seeing Sam being separated from Gilly on an ongoing basis, given how much time has been spent on the relationship, and the paucity of other characters in the vicinity.
Luka Nieto,
I’m sure it’s Cley Cerwyn.
No where in book did she betray or choose Lannister over family, in Darry she told her father the truth, she didn’t expect to be called and when she was she chosed neither side and got burned.
Ned already basically threaten Cersei, you don’t think she have the roads watched or the docks?
Sansa was really naive, and foolish but neither evil or sinister, she could not understand why she could not say goodbye to Joff even if Mordane went with her, yet Arya could goto Serio and also he could go back to WF with her.
The worst she his guilty of is getting herself and Jeyne captive as hostages, everything else is on Ned,Cat, Jamie, Cersei,King Robert,Robb, Joff, LF and Varys.
I think this is why D & D bypassed Sansa running to Cersei, it wasn’t what drove Neds or the Starks downfall.
O_o,
Except the Starks have a greatsword that goes by the name of Ice. They have one Brandon “The Builder” Stark who allegedly built a magical wall of Ice to protect human kind from the Others. They even had another Brandon that went by the nickname “Ice Eyes”. If there’s one house in Westeros that represents the Ice/Winter side of the equation, those are the Starks.
They need to have Brian Blessed as Wyman. There is no one who could do a better job. No one!
TheTouchOfFrost,
That’d be just so fucking amazing that I don’t even dare to dream. Please God, let D&D and/or Nina Gold be fans of the wonderful Brian Blessed. Granted, his performances are usually way too camp for Game of Thrones, but the appropriate direction would result, I believe, in a wonderfully fierce and dangerous Manderly. He certainly can play the jolly fool, too.
yeah, there’s a reason they are known as Kings of Winter.
Mihnea,
Not to worry Minha 🙂 there are people from all over the world here at Watchers on the Wall not only native speakers/writers of English who should actually appreciate the effort the world makes to speak and spell english correctly 😉
Cheers 🙂
Mmmm could well be completed unrelated to GoT, but if it is perhaps head shaving is part of some kind of punishment for Loras?
Hariette Tuttle,
Oh, I don’t mind it, if it’s told politly. I always try to get better. 🙂
George R. R. Martin should play Wyman Manderly. He looks the part, and it’s not like he has anything else to do.
Luka Nieto,
His demeanour is perfect. He’s from South Yorkshire so can easily do the accent and oozes charisma. Because he’s such a character people forget that he’s a very solid actor too!
Plus the stories he could tell would keep the rest of the crew in stiches/amazed. Amongst other things, he’s saved a man’s life up Everest, punched a Polar Bear, sparred with the Dalia Lama, delivered a baby in a park, survived a plane crash and is the oldest man to have ever hiked to the north pole!
Hopefully I did.
I was thinking GRRM last night doing Manderly, take a page out of Hitchcok’s playbook.
Yaga,
Heh, speculation is just that: unless you got it from hacking GRRM’s laptop, that is!
That might be Sam’s fate: GRRM does use lesser protagonists and 3rd party POVs to let us “see” some events. I am skeptical of the Maesters having much important information- they will no doubt scoff at the notion of White Walkers returning – but the alternative is that Sam pieces together the key info from books that the Maesters keep in the fantasy sections of their libraries.
grailking,
You where polite, don’t worry! 🙂
Luka Nieto,
I see Ian McNiece getting the part. A) He fits the part of Wyman Manderly almost too perfectly and B) HBO recycles actors from their other shows alllll the time (he was in Rome). Huisman = Treme, McShane = Deadwood, to name a couple
grailking,
I never said that sansa was responsible for the fall of the starks lol, i’m talking about her decision to not back arya’s story when joffrey attack her and the butcher’s boy, this led to the death of lady, which symbolized a disconnect from the rest of her family. It wasn’t her fault and I agree she was naive, but it still doesn’t change what occurred. Many people make naive mistakes and still pay the price in life
Luka Nieto,
Yeah, Sam is a low-tier protagonist, not just a 3rd party PoV. But he still is pretty minor in the whole scheme: he does best as a strong supporting character on the show, I.e, a sort of Hermione analog.
Was he the town crier in Rome?
SlayerNina,
Actually, I don’t. I tend to get irritated when I read things that are not germane to the story.
Lord of Bones,
If she had told the truth, Joffrey would have beaten the hell outta her when they had married.
Plus, Cersei would have still wanted a wolf dead for attacking the prince.
Her silence changed nothing.
Lord of Bones,
The “mistake” was well explained by Ned. Sansa had had it drilled into her that women were supposed to blindly defend husbands, fiancée, etc. She had also had “do not lie” drilled into her. Faced with a moral paradox, her mind imploded. But Lady was doomed the moment Joffery attacked Micah.
And his life ain’t easy. 🙂
McNiece would work as well. It’s a more likely casting choice, for the reasons you stated and that he was in fact already cast in Game of Thrones —he was Illyrio in the pilot, but couldn’t come back for the series.
I just… want to hear Brian Blessed’s famous bellow in Game of Thrones.
Yes what a great document! I totally missed that Robert Aramayo is confirmed for the Tower of Joy. He screams Howland Reed to me because we know he is there. If we see Howland in this famous flashback, I would certainly hope we see him in present day this season as well. I think we are all just uncertain when/how/why he is going to enter the picture. It would make most sense to me to see him either in Bran or the Northern story lines but who knows?!
What we need not forget is that Roose Bolton’s army is not all made of Bolton men so I expect a lot will happen within Winterfell and throughout the North as his influence starts to wain with Sansa escaping and other news circulating throughout the North. This will certainly build to the epic battle being foreshadowed towards the end of the season.
The thing is, She did backup her sister’s story to Ned, but when she was unexpectedly called to tell the truth to the King she plead the fifth.
I felt she was put in a damned if I do or damned if I don’t situation, why Ned did not offer some moral support I don’t know, but in show he explained why Sansa did what she did.
I think personally a wolf was dying that night no matter what.
GRRM said Sansa played a part small as it was, he also said he didn’t understand all the hate Sansa generated.
Maybe he did not portray her situation enough as naive as he felt he did?
O_o,
As I’m thinking about it. Not resurrection (that would happen on the show, mixed it up) really…more likely to heal Jon. While his soul is inside of Ghost. There is something about Val I can’t quite figured it out.
Luka Nieto,
I would like to see Lyanna Mormont. There will be some kind of big meeting between Northerners or ate least that’s what I think. Some people suggest that Jon could meet her and you know that she has the same name like his aunt. These little subtle hints to you know what.
She lied to Robert about the Arya/Joffrey fight to protect Joffrey, and she told Cersei that Ned was planning to leave King’s Landing. Sansa has always been incredibly stupid and selfish, and I think she’s the next Stark to die.
Sure, they call themselves all that, just as Tormund calls himself many things and swears his member is as big as Jon’s arm, or the Lannisters think of themselves as lions. That’s all, names, they really don’t have the kind of relation with ice, that the Targs and Mel have with fire. In true they are closest to nature and to the CotF.
Wimsey,
Understanding why Sansa chose to act like she did, acknowledging the fact that we are dealing with a naive 13 year old girl with a major crush who also happens to not have the best relationship with her tomboyish sister, doesn’t really change the fact that she chose not to back her sister’s story and thus betrayed her in a sense. Sure, the consequences may have still been the same even if she had chosen to tell the truth but that is not the point. Sansa acted cowardly, and I venture to say that she acted as 80% of kids her age would in the same circumstances, and her cowardice led in a way to the death of not only a direwolf but also a boy, let’s not forget the boy.
I love Sansa and I want her to be safe and happy but she did betray her sister and in a way her father when she ran to Cersei to tell her of Ned’s plans. She did not bring about the Starks’ downfall and she’s not responsible for her father’s death but she also did what she did, regardless of whether she understood the severity of her actions or not. No one is saying she acted with malice but she made mistakes and suffer incredible awful consequences, some completely undeserved.
Luka Nieto,
Looks like McNiece is a shoe in. Not a bad choice but Brian just has much more of the north and Manderly about him.
Shame they’re not casting Mors Umber as Brian could nail him too!
As great as Brian Blessed is, I doubt he’ll be in it. As fit as he is for a big guy, he turns 80 next year and he’s had to cut back after he collapsed on stage from a heart condition in a production on King Lear this year.
But he would be awesome.
She did not really lie, she stayed neutral, her mistake, as far as with Cersei we don’t know what was said, Sansa wanted to say goodbye, she wanted to talk to King Robert but was scared of him, so she went to the Queen who already knew Ned’s intentions all Cersei needed was when to strike.
How hard would it be to manipulate a 12 year old, oh Sansa darling the Prince is in council, wait here or I can have him see you off at the ship by the way what ship are you sailing?
Done!
Yup real sinister, just saying Sansa’s part was really small compared to Ned’s, Cersei, Robert,Cat, LF,Varys,Slynt and Joffs, and to be truthful the Hound could have let Mycah go but decided a 10? year old should die.
Micah was dead before Sansa was even called before the king period, reread the book.
Micah’s death isn’t on Sansa, it’s on Joffry, Cersei, the hound and unfortunately Arya had a part in his death also, part of her stupid side.
Ned and only Ned told Cersei of his plans when he met her in the Godswood of KL, from that point on Ned was doomed; she already was watching him just like LF and Varys.
The first thing she do is watch the roads and docks, the Godswood talk was 2 or3 days before Ned was planning on his kids leaving, he even stated in the books that he could not let his family safety be in the way of him doing what must be done.
So he put his house second to his honor of confronting Cersei and thinking she run with her children.
Bad decision,bad,bad.
Yes, he was!
HAHAHAHAHA! Well-struck, Ser or Milady. You just made my day.
Thank you.
Yes, he be good
How can you say she didn’t lie?? Robert asked what happened, she could have told the truth but prefered to say she didn’t remember in order to protect her precious wedding to Joffrey. It’s not being “neutral”, she lied.
As for the Cersei thing, you have a strange way of explaining the story! Sansa went to Cersei to tell her they were leaving King’s Landing, Cersei didn’t ask for her in the first place. So, Sansa is responsible. I’m not saying that she caused the doom of her family, but she did two major mistakes.
grailking,
But you are glossing over Sansa’s actions here. Regardless of Ned’s mistakes and their horrible consequences, Sansa still went to the Queen and told her about what his father was going to do. It is not, I am sure, intended as a betrayal but it is a betrayal. Your father is telling you something in confidence, you going to a stranger and telling her what you father told you is a betrayal of his trust in you:
“It was for love,” Sansa said in a rush. “Father wouldn’t even give me leave to say farewell.” She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning.
Also, if I had a sister and I was in Arya’s situation, I would expect my sister to back up my story regardless of how great our relationship is or is not. If she didn’t, I would feel betrayed and trust her little or not at all from then on.
come to think of it, has there been ANY word of John Bradley/Sam being seen anywhere there was filming? Can’t remember anything about Sam or Gilly being seen, only the news about casting of the other Tarleys.
Excellent choice, I can picture him right now. After reading what the rest of you had written about Manderly and the awesome speech, it will be so great to see him on screen. Not too keen on
but everything else about his appearance is exciting.
I’m not glossing over Sansa’s stupidity, all she wanted was to say goodbye, and all she knew is they were leaving and ships name, she’s not privy to anything else.
On the note of Arya, if she at least contemplated what Sansa said in the field, maybe all could have been avoided.
Sansa and Arya were young and foolish, Ned was plain dumb, Robert was weak, Cersei was a B, and Joff a D and Micah, Jeyne and others paid.
Of course behind the curtain lays a puppet master or two pulling the strings and using incidents for chaos.
I’m just saying Sansa and Arya’s parts are small compared to the adults.
Got to be some sort of fallout between father or son, or reconnection, not to confident on that knowing how Randyl Tarley is.
Do tou think Sam will say the child is his?
Moka,
I don’t think that Sansa did lie. I suspect that she simply could not grasp what was happening. Beautiful golden princes do not behave as Joffery did: so what she thought she saw could not have happened.
John and Hannah were both spotted in Spain for a while.
The more I think about it I think the two people burning from the pyres will be Rickon and Osha. Especially if the rumors are that the Umbers are fighting alongside the Boltons. I foresee the Starks being completely ridden of their family name by the end of the series. Their blood may live on through Sansa and Arya who I think will be the only ones living at the time the story concludes. Jon will most likely be a Targaryen, although I secretly wish he was Ned Stark’s bastard. In years to come the Stark family will be a story to tell about, how they fought bravely and honorably. Martin has already said it won’t be the peachy ending we’re all expecting and in that I truly don’t see Rickon making it. I figure he’s been held captive at this point. It would be plenty easy for the Umbers to say they’ve found them. Oh, the only thing I think I see possibly happening is Bran actually having a kid somehow. I think he’ll transform into the Raven and never be seen again, but thats the only possibility I see. People will flip when Rickon dies saying its cruel to kill children but think of some of the gruesome things we’ve seen thus far. Its been mentioned he cant have children due to his condition but I’ve seen a chick give birth to smog on this show so prove it.
Thanks. Couldn’t remember. It must have been one of those multi-leak days, where info was gushing from all portals, and nobody had spare love to give to poor Sam and Gilly. I like them being part of the mix, their relationship is a break from intrigue and mayhem, plus I believe Sam’s brain is going to help save the day.
Thronetender,
John Bradley and Hannah Murray were seen repeatedly in Spain for filming, but no filming pics were leaked. Just a ton of photos of them with fans on the street and such.
We don’t actually know that this is true. In the ‘present’ we only have Mirri Maz Duur’s description to go by, and no way of knowing whether she is telling the truth or just twitting Dany. Her handmaidens only confirm that Rhaego was stillborn and deformed, but there are lots of potentially fatal birth defects. As for earlier Targaryens, GRRM makes it clear that not every bit of lore that makes it into the histories is literally true.
Mihnea,
Hey, good luck on your new job!
I think he will tell Papa Tarly that Little Sam is his. I doubt he would want to raise a completely unrelated child at Horn Hill. I don’t think Sam will get an “Atta Boy” out of this, but who knows?
Gilly is the bigger question. I have stated before that I don’t see much more to mine out of Sam and Gilly’s relationship. They were already bickering like an old couple last season, and the sex was their climax (literally and figuratively). The only places I see left for them are either death or a happy ending for her by staying at Horn Hill. Plus I have trouble seeing Gilly wanting to leave Little Sam behind, and the show has already established that the Citadel forbids women. It ultimately depends if the show needs someone for Sam to talk to, and if that role can’t be filled by someone else.
Another thing, if Sam’s stop at Horn Hill is the bulk of his season, Sam saying goodbye to Gilly is certainly a more power emotional climax than just saying goodbye to the baby.
Maester of Ceremonies,
Brendan Gleeson could have been a star on this show, hoping to see him as Lord Commander would have been great, but I don’t see him joining, although anything is possible with Ian McShane joining the cast. Gleeson is a Hollywood gem.
Except that Sue already has confirmed that Rickon is not one of them….
Given that Rickon is very much a background character, I doubt that GRRM is referring to him when he says this. Moreover, GRRM’s warnings really have been: don’t expect this to be “good” triumphing over “evil” a la Lord of the Rings. He might very well be shooting for a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” conclusion where any “victory” will feel tainted because some group or entity that didn’t deserve to suffer (or at least no more than any other one) is going to have to suffer.
Nathan Baratheon,
We know for a fact that Rickon is not the one to be burned alive. He might die, but he’s not tied up to that cross. Javi from L7R said something about identities of those characters, but don’t know what it was. I guess something with one of them being still alive last season. Davos will be at the Battle, but maybe he will be the one to be there.
Sansa lied. She had to choose between standing up for her sister and supporting Joffrey. She chose Joffrey.
No feminist agenda here; just mainstream tv. No way an abuse victim will be out as easily as you imply. If she is, they can just as well kill off the cripple or helpless dwarves. An abuse victim is destined to make a stand – on tv, at least.
And I really think being polite won’t kill you. You should try it sometime.
That’s not lying: that is disloyalty. Except that it’s loyalty because women are supposed to stand up for their husbands/fiances over everyone else. But that’s what GRRM likes to do, and what the Game of Thrones story was all about: what do you do when you have an “Thou shalt never X” and a “Thous shalt not do Y” when the only way to not do X is to do Y?
Moreover, the question is: what did Sansa believe happened? After all, lying is not being incorrect: lying is deliberately asserting that something is true (or false) when one thinks that it actually is false (or true). A color-blind man is not lying when he says a red ball is brown: he thinks that it is. He actually is lying if he claims that it looks red to him: even though it is red, he cannot possibly see that.
Add to this that Sansa is not particularly bright: and dumb people are very good at not seeing things that they do not want to be true. Sansa believes that Joffery is a Golden Prince: so, seeing him not act like that is going to difficult for her to accept. Accordingly, her brain probably rejected what she saw. Moreover, Arya was involved. Isn’t Arya the one always causing troubles? And isn’t Arya an ugly little sister? We all know that that sort never is up to any good: heck, they might as well be bastards!
So, my bet is that by the time they were “testifying,” Sansa honestly had no idea what she had seen and what she had imagined.
Let’s just recap here what we’re getting in Season 6, just in case we’re not all clear:
–The Northern Conspiracy
–Some kind of epic battle involving six armies
–Wyman Manderly!
–The Dothraki coming back
–A new fun two-man partnership of Jorah and Daario
–A new old two-man partnership of Jaime and Bronn
—HODOR
–Max von Sydow stepping in as the One-Eyed Raven
–The return of the Blackfish
–The Greyjoy pirates and the return of Yara
–Walder Frey
–The Tower of Joy (!!)
–More Varys & Tyrion together
–and Ian McShane.
So, yeah. I’m going bonkers.
Greatjon of Slumber,
Yes, that post says it all. S6 will be amazing.
Wimsey,
Sansa had already told her father the truth of what happened. When she was asked about it in front of the King, she lied and said she didn’t remember.
Greatjon of Slumber,
I’d only make one teeny little change to your post:
Ian McfuckingShane. 🙂
I initially thought that Danny’s baby weird stuff was consequence of Jorah carrying Danny to the tent while Mirri worked her mojo.
But another Targ baby-dragon? Lore or not, it’s one hell of a coincidence. Either there’s something in there or Martin is trolling us big time.
Greatjon of Slumber,
I love lists!
I am going to add Izembaro and the mummers because I crave everything about the Mercy chapter from TWoW.
Chickenduck,
To be fair though , despite collapsing on stage he returned 20 minutes after it to finish the play! HE has a pacemaker now but that shouldn’t stop him pursuing his career further if not in quite as demanding physical regimes. He’s a tough old bastard and I’m sure he could hack the one day’s filming required.
We can but dream…and hope!
I would still love to see Wilko Johnson back at least for a cameo as Ilyn Payne after his miracle recovery from cancer.
FreeParking,
Gilly telling Sam she’ pregnant might be a bit of an alternative climax just as he is about to leave for old town – and a reason to stay alive.
Lord of Bones,
“yes technically you can wish death on any fictitious character, but if everyone supports the starks, why would anyone want a stark to die so another one can be uplifted, especially just because the stark is female.”
Fans/viewers who want Sansa to succeed, even at the expense of Lil Rik, arent necessarily pulling for because of her gender. That’s your assumption. People for various reasons like and root for her character and I can wager it has little to do with just her uterus.
wanderer,
I dunno. I think there’s a certain section of her fan club who are all about the uterus.
She’s the least Stark of all of Ned’s kids and doesn’t seem to understand the north. Fair enough some people liking her but personally she’s always seemed quite a non-event for me. The little girl lost thing was fine for a season or two but has gotten tiresome. Last season was her best in the show yet so hopefully we can get more of that. I don’t care if we get a strong , independent Sansa. As long as she’s interesting then that’ll do me fine.
Just having Manderly does not mean that we get the “Northern Conspiracy.” Indeed, I will be surprised if the “Northern Conspiracy” that many fans are anticipating even appears in the books! At this point, none of the major characters are in positions to be a part of it.
I think that Ned knew that she had been there and heard some version of it from Sansa. It was not clear at all that Sansa told Arya’s (truthful) version.
Nathan Baratheon,
“Martin has already said it won’t be the peachy ending we’re all expecting”
GRRM only said : I think you need to have some hope,” he said, referencing the manners in which sagas end. “We all yearn for happy endings in a sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending. People ask me how Game of Thrones is gonna end, and I’m not gonna tell them … but I always say to expect something bittersweet in the end, like [J.R.R. Tolkien]. I think Tolkien did this brilliantly. You can’t just fulfill a quest and then pretend life is perfect, he said. Life doesn’t work that way.
Bittersweet in the context of what GRRM is referencing could mean a variety of things, but it sure as heck doesnt mean it will end on a sore/depressing note. On his recent Northwestern panel, he griped about how current sci-fi fiction series are too bleak. That should give readers/fans a hint he’s not preparing to gut our hearts out LOL
Wimsey,
No, she was able to explain it to Ned earlier. She understood, initially. By the time we next get a chapter from her (at the KL tourney), her memory has changed to more or less correspond to what she said at trial, but we have no idea what she was thinking at the time of the meeting (it’s one of the more notable points for a POV character that is not actually told from their POV, which is an interesting narrative choice).
Sansa is not dumb; she’s naive. GRRM makes a point of telling us that she’s an extremely talented student (e.g., better at writing than her brothers who are several years older, plays multiple instruments) and showing her tremendous mastery of the intricacies of courtly manners (which she shows from the beginning, e.g., when she first meets Barristan and Renly). Her lack of understanding of how court really works is a result of her age, her sheltered lifestyle, and lack of proper guidance.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Why cameo? I do not understand why he would appear in a cameo? He wasn’t a memorable character apart from a couple of scenes and his performance was nothing special. In my opinion he was a miscast. I think it would be best to replace him if the character comes back in some form which is not the case as it seems…
Just to clear up on Sansa as dumb, if you believe it, this person disagrees and he’s the only one who truly counts on the matter:
Greatjon of Slumber,
Great list. STOKED! Don’t forget some kind of stark children flashback.
Also, though there is nothing explicitly confirmed, I am really hoping to get some insight/further exploration into the phenomenon that is grayscale!
Then why would Ned have called Sansa forth to, in essence, testify on Arya’s behalf?
A direct quote from the books:
“They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”
That seems pretty clear.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I don’t think that needs to be spoiler-tagged. But otherwise, yeah, from that and Ned’s subsequent reaction to Arya’s anger at Sansa not backing her up (which is the only reaction he has to the whole event, somewhat bizarrely), what Sansa said corresponded to Arya’s statement.
Well for me, it’s simple,she is a normal everyday child of her time and station no superduper powers (as of yet) and what powers she may get will be based on what skills of life she picks up on, this doesn’t mean she won’t gain some sort of power that could be useful ( I think she’s a sensitive empath), but she knows court life not to be able to take advantage yet, but she should get there, people like her, Tyrion Hound, Margery, Robert Arryn and some people use her because she’s green and young but like SR she knows people want her for her name and what they can get out of it.
Sansa is her father’s daughter more so than Arya, this has nothing to do with Starkness, she is Stark to the bone, hopefully she learns more then dad.
My bias is I rarely read fantasy, just LOTR and ASOIAF and I tend to favor political narratives over super power what ever characters, I like all the Starks, Sansa first Arya last even behind Rickon.
Thats me, also in real life even in medieval and present times 90+ percent of people lived ordinary boring lives .
I root for the ordinary person who succeeds on their own learning lessons of life along the way, the only real wish I have for Sansa is that she manages to keep a good portion of her humanity and empathy.
I root for Samwell for basically the same reasons.
Ned should never have killed Lady. One doesn’t simply kill a rare direwolf without consequences. He should have been as savvy as Arya and let Lady go in the forest….joining Nymeria. Ned was cursed the moment he slit innocent Lady’s throat…and in that moment he failed Sansa as well. The two Westeros champions (Ned and Robert) could have gone in a less brutal, more compassionate direction and put Joff’s idiocy/silliness in its place…instead “Promise Me” Ned failed his kids.
Of course, goofy Ned started the whole ASoI&F tale in the north by killing a man under false/ignorant pretenses. (I wonder if Bran will ever figure that out)
Arya proved (is proving) to be the savvy one…prescient.
grailking,
Just curious: What dialogue or events from the books and/or scenes from the show prompted you to conclude that [“disregarding Starkness”], Sansa “is her father’s daughter more so than Arya”?
She’s naive like Ned, trust in people like Ned, she follows protocol like Ned, doesn’t truly question the system like Ned, Sansa looks like mom, but acts like dad, Sansa is also like Lyanna in regards to songs and stories,Arya looks like Ned and Lyanna but a bit more wild like Lyanna and not as trusting like her mom, Arya makes rash decisions like her mom and Lyanna and like Lyanna and her mom goes against the system norms ( not saying it’s a bad thing ), both girls fail to notice the consequences of their actions due to their ages.
Sansa’s traits are more in common with Neds, Arya’s with her mom, both have some Lyanna in them.
grailking,
The whole “who is the most Stark-like” debate is reductive, in my opinion (the whole notion of a uniform family mindset is misleading, anyway; Ned, from all indications, isn’t much like Brandon or Lyanna). All of the Stark kids have influences from both their parents. There was a really neat overlapping chart I saw one that outlined how each of Sansa, Arya and Bran paralleled different aspects of their mother and father’s personalities, lives and experiences; I wish I could find that again.
Ned may not have been politically astute, but to label him “goofy” misconstrues his actions and motivations. He was a stoic, a fatalist, and a man of honour. Sadly, those qualities are generally not valued these days.
As brand new Hand, he HAD to obey Robert’s orders to have Lady killed, and at least had the honour and stones to do the job himself. None of that would have happened had Sansa not privately told her father the truth and then publicly changed her story. If he’d known she would do that, he might even have avoided that confrontation with Robert AND Cersei. And in Kings Landing, in my opinion, she betrayed her father and her family by going to Cersei. Worse yet, by then she had seen enough of Cersei in action to surmise that was ruthless, but she still tattled to her. GRRM himself has said that Sansa was partly responsible for Ned’s death,–it was one of his Thus Spake George-type pronouncements a few years ago, but I no longer know where or when exactly.
I think I remembered that, but I don’t have it.
I think she chose not to offend the dangerous powerful family in which she has been sold. Cersei is the Queen (the most powerful woman on Westeros) and everybody’s know that Robert is a cheater. Giving her upbreeding and how her mother was supposed to be to another man, her aunt was kidnapped and raped and her other aunt married to a man who could be her grandfather, I think Sansa was right about not pissing off her future husband.
Noone’s never gonna blame Arya for being outside doing risky things and desobeying his father (she must know that), a noble playing with a peasant, something forbidden at the time and dangerous for the peasant (she must to know that) and for stricking a prince, a punible crime (she also must know that)?
Martin uses the POVs to create bias on the readers, so they can choose the character they like. Sansa being introduced from Arya’s POV (a more likable character to modern tastes + sassy girl + underdog vibe vs cheerleader girl) maybe had that collateral effect. Some people didn’t realise in their first interaction that Sansa was not mocking her sister (Arya thought she did), not insulting the prince (when her sister was on the same room) and aswering to Jon’s nasty comment (he looks like a girl) with “half-brother” (which is not an insult).
I wonder what happened if Sansa was the first POV.
Yes…I generally agree with that assessment of Ned. I used the term “goofy” (which was mainly in jest to get a reaction) only in context of the opening scene, where Ned, as warden of the north, slayed this “stark raving mad” NW deserter without questioning his motives….and he used it as a “teachable moment” for Bran. That extreme reaction, without sending a raven to CB to confirm with Mormont that this man was indeed on a lost ranging mission and needed further questioning, was not a “teachable moment,” imho. To paraphrase your thoughts, that is a quality about leadership that is “generally not valued these days.” Hence…”goofy”.
Being scared shitless and witless deserved death? How the heck did he get south of the wall, after all? But honorable Ned cast his judgement impulsively and decisively…not very parental or Hand-like. (This is why I wonder if the well-rooted Bran will ever learn this about Ned)
To me, that moment showed the fatal flaw in Ned’s character…he didn’t see the whole picture. Hence the “Lady” decision, the naivete in KL trust and gameplaying, the subsequent naive backlash from Sansa, among other things, doomed Ned. Like you said, “not very politically astute” at all. But that is why this tale is so interesting!
Although I believe there was a better way to handle “Lady” (take her back to WF, release her with Nymeria, give her to another…just not kill another innocent to appease an idiot royal child…), the goal of the whole scene from a plot perspective, in addition to noting Ned’s fatal flaws, was to get rid of the direwolves before reaching KL. GRRM couldn’t have had direwolves in KL…THAT would have been ridiculous! 🙂
I’m not talking about being a Stark or Tully or not a Stark or not a Tully, I’m talking mannerism, body language thought processes etc.
If you have kids, or friends other family members etc.
you can see some take on habits of certain family members,whether or not they look like that particular person.
As far as Ned and his siblings, I think we are seeing Jon Arryns influence on him, I don’t think Brandon or Lyanna were fostered anywhere; but we know Ned was.
While I’ve accepted that the short filming time for “Fletcher” means that we’re unlikely to see Frey Pies as it was set up in the books this season, I’m still hoping that some kind of “pies” make their appearance in the show in some way, shape, or form. If not this season, the hopefully next season. That scene was seriously one of the best instances of revenge being served to the Boltons / Freys in the books. Maybe it’ll be the prelude in the much-speculated “Red Wedding 2.0”?
I agree, somehow evil must be punished.
Just to play devil’s advocate….what is evil though? Yes, the Freys and Boltons are disgusting and I wouldn’t mind seeing them obliterated, but are they “evil” because of the RW? (Some could say “yes” for simply breaking guest rights, but that is another argument) Walder felt betrayed by Robb and Cat. Roose and others hated Robb’s strategies and felt betrayed by the Karstark decision. Then, from Tywin’s perspective, “it was better to kill a few at dinner rather than thousands at war.”
We, the audience and Stark supporters, want vengeance (or dire consequences) for the RW but from a civil war perspective, it was advantageous from the opposite side. There are Lannister supporters throughout Westeros. Furthermore, how are the Targs perceived in Westeros? Evil? Crazy? Adored? Respected? They killed thousands. When Dany invades Westeros and kills thousands of indigenous folk, is she evil?
Even more extreme…Are the WWs evil or misunderstood? From what perspective? We’ll find out!
Hodor’s Bastard,
Well said, HB! I love reading your posts. And how can we call the Boltons “evil” when Manderly pulls the pie thing? Isn’t that also evil? The point is that atrocities occur on all sides–no one is all good or all evil. The good lies in understanding and acceptance. [steps off of soap box]
Still looking forward to that speech and think that they could quickly introduce some petulant Frey boy that we instantly hate, then have him disappear just before dinner… heh heh…
Oooh…I quite like that! Thx. “Fletcher” should be a fun moment. Also, ToJ should be quite revealing as well! Why, Arthur, why????
Well Ramsey and LF better get theirs quick, I considered them evil, Killing for a cause or definite injustice might be wrong and punishable but I don’t know if I call it evil.
What LF, Ramsey, LSH ( at least when she’s kills innocents), Joffery, and though he’s whitewashed in show, Tyrion did some kills I would deem evil, killing for personal gain, or your slighted or doing it for pleasure to me is evil.
Found it:April 10, 1999
Regarding Sansa
Your question re Sansa…
The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned’s downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned’s plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc… but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King’s Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc… all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.
Ned’s talk with Littlefinger was certainly a turning point, though I am not sure I would call it =the= turning point. There were other crucial decisions that could easily have changed all had they gone differently. You mention Ned’s refusal of Renly, which was equally critical. And there is Varys to consider, as well as the minor but crucial player everyone forgets — Janos Slynt, who might have chosen just to do his duty instead of selling the gold cloaks to the highest bidder.
So… all in all, I suppose my answer would be that there is no single villain in the piece who caused it all, but rather a good half dozen players whose actions were all in part responsible for what happened.
Hope that helps.
(And let me add that I am always astonished to be reminded how fiercely some of my readers argue these points. It’s gratifying to know I have readers who care so much, although if truth be told sometimes I get the scary feeling that you people know these books better than I do… )
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1017
Sean C.,
I covered it because it was a direct quote from the books. Yeah, it really didn’t need to be, but I’d rather cover things that don’t need to be, than not cover things which should be covered.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I fully agree Ned should not have killed Lady!
SlayerNina,
Whatever her reasons were for lying, it doesn’t change the fact she lied. As for blaming Arya, not only is Arya not responsible for Sansa’s choice to lie, had Jofrrey not acted like the vile lil shit he was, the whole scenario would not have played out the way it did.
dothrakian raven,
Possibly because he is a minor character so a cameo would be fine. There’s no need for him to come back at all although he is a name on Arya’s list. I thought he played it very well. He had the perfect look and didn’t need to say anyhting. Who knows, he may have appeared more often if he hadn’t been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and was expected to die. He even turned down chemo because he preferred to live out his last days writing his music and not have that inhibited by the treatment. They guy made a miraculous recovery due to radical surgery. I think it would be a nice touch if he came back and there was some minor resolution for the character. Personally, I thought he played the small role perfectly.
grailking,
I just find her lack of doing anything remotely interesting makes her a dull character. People moaned about her in Winterfell last season in the show but it was a wise change as things actually happened! I really couldn’t enjoy yet more of Sansa’s ‘Novel of Manners’ which sadly seems to be where the book is going. In the context of the other stories it makes her exceedingly dull and a bit of a non-event. More meaty stuff like last season for her please.
TheTouchOfFrost,
I wish the best for him and I am glad he came stronger after his serious health problem but I was not impressed by him as KL’s butcher and after three seasons of total absence I don’t see why he should come back. Arya’s list includes Cersei and if I remember well the Mountain, not to mention the Red Priestess ( I think Melisandre made it in that list).
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
She didn’t lied exactly though. She didn’t say the truth, but not a lie either. Given she’s an “unrealiable narrator” (or she’s plain crazy, after the BW scene and the Eerie I’m wondering how well adjusted she is), maybe she wasn’t lying when she said “she didn’t saw it/didn’t remember it” (it happened three days ago), but who knows.
Arya was responsible about what happens to Mycah, her sister, her direwolf or Lady. And Mycah just run away without a second thought on Arya and she’s like “poor Mycah” lol
PS: I feel I’m beating a dead horse here.
Yes, they managed to make the plot even more non-event. Whatever happened in WF, was on Ramsay’s plot, not Sansa’s or even Theon’s.
Jeyne Poole was the weak excuse to redeem Theon and to show Bran warging a tree, Jon breaking his vows and the start of the “northern conspiracy” (ghost of WF included). And if you only left the first but developing the adventures of Ramsay (with Myranda, his father and the 20 good men)…
To me, I found much more funny LF scheeming (and yes, I love Myranda Royce, I’m biased here) than Ramsay’s doing the usual. Even Sansa from season 2 and 3 had more scenes, agency and sass than those hybrid of Jeynsa.
Novel of Manners are awesome. It’s what happens in KL and there are the stronger plots overall, those involving Tyrion, Cersei, Varys, the Tyrells or LF, hands down. Even the Wall (usually the boring part of Westeros) improved this season with the presence of Stannis. Didn’t enjoy the creepy version of Downton Abbey? XD
SlayerNina,
Yes, in my view, she did lie. No, she didn’t tell a false story about what happened, she said she didn’t remember, even though she did, because she told her father what really happened. Thus, while it wasn’t as bad of a lie as it could have been, she still lied. To put the responsibility for what happened on Arya is taking all responsibility away from Joffrey. Had he not acted like the little monster he was, none of what ended up happening would have.
If you want to blame it all on Arya, that’s your prerogative, but you will not convince me, so there’s really no point in continuing this particular disagreement.
dothrakian raven,
Don’t need of his presence (a cameo would be fun, though), but those eyes were creepy… And I always wondered if he’s one of those characters who knew than he seems. He was on Aerys court, after all.
Her manners are smoke screens, if they follow the books and know the ending, then it looks like Sansa is going to do something big or important, for the good or the bad I don’t know, but all indications are it’s for family, she may die for family, she may marry the Night King for all we know like taking on Persephone’s cloak ( one of my tin foil thoughts ), during Spring ,Summer and Fall live South, Winter back up North of North.
I think of all the POV’s she has a 360 degree rotation on where she can go ( with GRRM’s,help) and to me that’s what’s fascinating about her.
I could go for some pie…
I can’t agree with the Sansa-As-Victim argument. Sansa is a survivor. She’s suffered many a horror but has never given up. She’s learned to put on whatever face she needs to get through her situation, and has occasionally bested her tormentors in conversation. Not only did she choose to save herself (or die trying), she saved Theon, the man who betrayed her family and ultimately destroyed her home because she has compassion. In typical storytelling, her lack of a direwolf protector would make her seem a goner, but GRRM is a bit more surprising than that. It seems clear to me she’s learning to be a smart, just and strong ruler in some manner. People have argued here that she’s not a killer, but it seems we forget she would have pushed Joffrey off a bridge had the Hound not stopped her. Arya is the Stark I fear will not make it.
People don’t refer to Theon as a victim. He was basically a hostage his whole life, rejected by his family, made terrible choices, and later broken by Ramsey. In time, Sansa likely would have been broken as well. But “victim” just seems an unfair label. I went into the series hating her like everyone else, but the gal has grown on me.
We’ll all find out how it ends eventually.
That might be the end of my Sansa love song. Can’t promise anything.
Arya’s not responsible for Sansa’s lie, on the other hand Joffery was a d—, and Arya should have heeded Sansa’s warning, once Arya struck the little shit any chance of someone coming to their senses was lost.
We don’t know what could have been, maybe Sansa could have talk the little man to put down the sword, maybe not, but even that small chance vaporized, so at least to me Arya has a hand in Mycah’s fate, but it was joffe’s lie and Cersei’s vindictiveness and the Hounds allegiance that got Mycah ultimately killed.
Also Ilyn Payne is recited, Johnson’s facial expression scared the wits out of me and the wife 🙂
Also he’s still roaming around I think he is still a threat for Sansa.
dothrakian raven,
Not really sure what more he could have done with the few scenes he had playing a mute but hey whatever. All those others you’ve mentioned will have their stories resolved. Ilyn doesn’t have to come back as he is by no means essential to the plot but it would be a nice detail. Plus I’d hardly call him a butcher. He was the royal executioner/King’s Justice. He’s one of the few characters that has been at court since the days of Aerys and his jest about the Mad King is one of the pivotal moments of the degeneration of relations between Tywin and Aerys.
grailking,
She really needs to deliver soon as she’s been a passenger in the story so far. If I had to speculate , I sense she will become more of a Cersei/QoT type character as opposed to the Lyanna She-Wolf that some people seem to want her to be (sorry Arya’s already got that role covered!
I think he’s out of Sansa’s story. I could see him getting killed by Arya or SH as in the books he’s accompanying Jaime around the Riverlands and with his hand in Ned’s death someone will want revenge. As a character I do have a certain amount of sympathy for him as a lot of the time he’s just following orders and seems pretty ambiguous to them…plus he had a good point about it being Tywin running the kingdom!
On a sidenote, the album Wilko Johnson refused chemo to complete that he did with Roger Daltrey last year( Going Back Home) is well worth checking out.
Here’s Ilyn rocking out! 😛
No doubt, in my mind anyway will be the Starks version of QOT, the Stark that her house truly needs.
I do not see Sansa as Cersei 2.0, at least as long as she shows empathy and humanity.
Sadly I am following the Paris news, my son has a female friend there, she’s ok, just senseless killing.
grailking,
In being Cersei-like, Imean she’ll use some of her tricks. I don’t think we’ll see master manipulater Sansa in the story but she’ll do one or two things that show that is the direction she’s heading in her later life.
I still think she’ll find her way back to the Eerie and become the major player there and that the Ramsay rape/interaction was a substitute for what Harry the Heir will become.. Or I could see her taking over at the Riverlands. I think her destiny is not to rule the north though. Her personality is more adapted to the more southernly kingdoms now and she would be more effective having power there.
Terrible news. Hope everyone is ok. It seems that the circle of violence and hate continues. Just hope this doesn’t become another Afghanistan/Iraq.
Lord Verwyn and Lord Manderly
Cerwyn to be in the north but Manderly in the RL as part of any RW revenge arc IMO…
Oh man, The hype train just keeps on coming with this show
SlayerNina,
Sansa didn’t call Jon ‘half brother’ after she heard what Jon said about Joff. She said he gets jealous because he’s a b*stard.
So Jon’s comment about Joffrey is ‘nasty’, but Sansa following that with ‘Jon gets jealous because he’s a b*stard’ is just truthful and not all condescending, I guess. LMAO.
I find this hilarious because I found Jon’s comment about Joffrey to be a dismissive putdown and truthful as some men can look feminine just as did Sansa’s comment about Jon. He IS a b*stard but it is also meant to be a dismissive putdown.
LMAO. This is why sometimes I can’t with Sansa stans. Y’all do experience some of the worst stuff thrown at your fave (holla out to two of my own faves Cat and Cersei) but this kinda nonsense I see far too often when Sansa stans defend Sansa. This is a minute example where Sansa’s framed as just being truthful and notatallaninsult (even though she didn’t actually say what you stated she said) while Jon’s comment ALONE was nasty. lol ok.
Is it okay that people put down Sansa to prop up Arya or any of the Starks, for example? Nah. But, when fans who present themselves as more conscious and often leftist in their analyses do just like sexists/haters do in putting down other characters, it makes me laugh and it makes me side-eye them. /Minor rant over
Anyways, I am excited for this casting news. I am waiting for Sansa to be an active agent this season in regards to the Northern Lords. I am excited for a potential Stark reunion.
Hodor’s Bastard,
I somewhat agree with this. I don’t think there is much point in quantifying people as good and evil, other than the irreparably psychotic, I guess.
Like, the Dornish killed Daeron I under a peace banner. We’re never told if those who did the deed were punished for breaking this taboo. This situation is different from the Freys/Boltons pulling the RW though as Daeron was the aggressor trying to invade and colonize their lands. But, the moral dilemma comes from the fact that they committed a war crime, a taboo, in the pursuit of a justifiable goal – keeping colonizers out of their lands and to prevent more people from dying needlessly. Obviously, history worked out in the Dornish favor as Baelor forgave them for Daeron’s death and a few generations later Dorne was brought into the realm via a marriage.
I’m sure people can compare Manderley and the Dornish reaction to Daeron’s conquest under the theme of taboos. I can’t really justify the RW, but I’m sure there’s devil’s advocates who can.