Filming at Knocklayde, outlaws gather in Belfast

Knocklayde

Filming for Game of Thrones Season Six continues in Northern Ireland, with pictures and tweets from the area coming in!

There is continued activity in the Knocklayde area, near Ballycastle. Pink signs have been spotted as filming takes place at the Hillside Road.  There is a small stone bridge there, marking the old Ballymoney to Ballycastle railway line, which may be being used for filming.

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We previously reported  on filming in the area so it looks like the cast and crew are still sticking around for the time being!

Head over to The Ballymoney Times for a little more info, and thanks to Watcher Gravemaster for the link!

We’ve also had words from some of the actors in the area.  Ricky Champ, who’ll be playing the role of Flynn the Outlaw, tweeted this:

Jóhannes Haukur Jóhannesson shared a departure lounge picture:

Although he didn’t specify his destination, it seems likely he’ll be joining up with Champ for outlaw scenes, as we speculated here.  Looks like it’s all go in Northern Ireland for the foreseeable future!

229 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Could this be the last hearth? Or does the castle have to do with the outlaws storyline.

      I’m hoping its the last hearth with the small jon crowing the king of winter. A crowned black dire wolf on a white field.

        Quote  Reply

    2. Jon is resurrected
      FrankenGregor
      Outlaws
      Hibrid of Septon Meribald/Elder Brother
      Arya returning at the Riverlands/Sansa is free
      Brienne doing a fight
      Jaime in the Riverlands

      Welcome to the LSH hype train again…

        Quote  Reply

    3. Interesting indeed, I wonder what their role will be in season 6, I’m. Very interested in the outlaw plot line, does anyone know any more details on the outlaws of season 6 ?

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    4. StandOzone: Interesting indeed, I wonder what their role will be in season 6, I’m. Very interested in the outlaw plot line, does anyone know any more details on the outlaws of season 6 ?

      Yep.. that’s why they’re going back to film those last “little bits.”

      They had to wait for her to be done with her play in London! 😉

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    5. “Benioff and Weiss, when they write the outline each year, for last two years, we got to this one point and we read this one gag and thought ‘Oh my God, how the hell are we going to do that? But this is going to be incredible!’ And then it got pulled and we didn’t do it in Season 4. And then, lo and behold, in Season 5 there it was again. And it’s pulled again! But now, in Season 6, it looks like we’re going to do it. Fingers crossed they won’t chicken out,”

      Sorry but if we’re starting

      a LSH hype train I guess this was the first thing that made me think of her this season. However, I just can’t see her returning and I fear that if she returns this season, non-book fans will say “they’ve killed all the the interesting characters so now they’re reviving them all” or something so I just hope that they retain her affect on characters storyline’s like Brienne, Jaime, the Brotherhood and the Freys but don’t include her actual character: i.e. use Sansa or something or maybe just say the brotherhood acted on their own accord.

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    6. BaelorBalerionBaelish:
      “Benioff and Weiss, when they write the outline each year, for last two years, we got to this one point and we read this one gag and thought ‘Oh my God, how the hell are we going to do that? But this is going to be incredible!’ And then it got pulled and we didn’t do it in Season 4. And then, lo and behold, in Season 5 there it was again. And it’s pulled again! But now, in Season 6, it looks like we’re going to do it. Fingers crossed they won’t chicken out,”

      Sorry but if we’re starting

      a LSH hype train I guess this was the first thing that made me think of her this season. However, I just can’t see her returning and I fear that if she returns this season, non-book fans will say “they’ve killed all the the interesting characters so now they’re reviving them all” or something so I just hope that they retain her affect on characters storyline’s like Brienne, Jaime, the Brotherhood and the Freys but don’t include her actual character: i.e. use Sansa or something or maybe just say the brotherhood acted on their own accord.

      I would like to add that I am very sceptical of the word ‘gag’. It’s not a word I’d use to describe the resurrection or a respectable character… perhaps the word bears another meaning in the dictionary I’m not sure.

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    7. mau,

      What do you mean? the three eyed raven was in season 4 already? they said it hasn’t been pulled off yet because the writer’s keep pulling it out every season since season 4..

        Quote  Reply

    8. Speculation on the gag:

      1-melisandre shown without glamour for an instant?
      2-brienne getting her face bit off?
      3-coldhands?!

      I agree lsh wouldnt really be a gag

        Quote  Reply

    9. Riverland trees bear a strange fruit
      Blood at the leaves and blood at the root
      Black bodies swingin in the southern breeze
      Strange fruit hangin from the poplar trees

        Quote  Reply

    10. mau:
      BaelorBalerionBaelish,

      I think that is the Three eyed raven.

      But they’ve already shown the Three-Eyed Raven, that can’t be it. It’s something we haven’t seen at all. What else is there in this story that could’ve been included in seasons 4 and 5, but was postponed until season 6? Please, don’t say ice spiders.

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    11. Gag doesn’t mean what I think some of you are thinking it means. It’s a special effects term.

      I don’t know if I can define it properly since it’s not my area but I can give you an example- Catelyn and Walder’s young wife at the Red Wedding had neck gags. Those are the thing on their necks that help create the throat-cutting special effects. If you google special effects and “gag,” you can see other blood gags.

      Since it was a special effects interview, I think that’s what they meant, gag in that way. There are lots of potential scenes that you could use special effects gags.

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    12. Oh, the outlaws. We hadn’t heard from them in a while.

      I guess they’re going to merge Brienne’s encounter with the Brave Companions and her fight with Rorge.

        Quote  Reply

    13. Well it really depends who has been quoted saying this. I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions from the word “gag”, it just means something huge that’s not gonna be easy to film, is coming.

      Edit: was about to add that it’s likely an industry term but didn’t have the knowledge…thanks for confirming Sue!

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    14. BaelorBalerionBaelish:
      “Benioff and Weiss, when they write the outline each year, for last two years, we got to this one point and we read this one gag and thought ‘Oh my God, how the hell are we going to do that? But this is going to be incredible!’ And then it got pulled and we didn’t do it in Season 4. And then, lo and behold, in Season 5 there it was again. And it’s pulled again! But now, in Season 6, it looks like we’re going to do it. Fingers crossed they won’t chicken out,”

      From the wording it seems like it’s something difficult to do.

      Lady Stoneheart is not really difficult to do. Just ask Michelle Fairly to return and put some make-up on her.
      I would rather think it’s something about the white walkers, the dragons, the direwolves, the wall falling down or Kingslanding burning… Something technical difficult and very expensive.

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    15. BaelorBalerionBaelish,

      A “gag” is an industry term that usually means a physical special effect. So, the “gag” is not a plot-point, but a specifically described event in the script that effects people have to figure out how to do. IIRC the interview was with an effects guy on GoT. Could have to do with anything.

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    16. For me, the low-hanging fruit on the

      LSH

      hype tree (uh or something) is

      The Bower character description that was posted months ago on here, someone who is shooting on a day when members of the outlaw band are too (though I don’t know if that means now or back in August) — Bower is a “powerless servant who is numb to the horror he serves” who appears in one episode. I can’t figure out what this means…I mean LSH is a possibility, or maybe a new pet of Ramsay’s, or someone who has to deal with White Walkers or even Euron?

      But I have been disappointed before and am prepared to be again!!

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    17. Sue the Fury,

      Sue,

      Judging from what you know, do you think these outlaws are in any way affiliated to the Brotherhood without Banners or are they a different group entirely?

      Any chance of seeing Paul Kaye/Philip McGinley again? Thanks!

        Quote  Reply

    18. Season 8 will roll in and people will still be keeping an eye out for LSH. What’s with this obsession with her? The character’s one of Martin’s literary mistakes imo. I’m forever grateful to Ds for cutting her.
      Btw WiC has a photo from the inside of Riverrun and some interesting scoop about the siege and that big battle. hmm

        Quote  Reply

    19. Hmmm… that clears things up a little.

      Okay, so if we move away from Lady Stoneheart, could the gag be something like maybe snow in King’s landing? It’s tough to pin it down exactly considering this thing has been cut from seasons 4 and 5. Coldhands surely would’ve been a consideration for season 3 and 4 so I doubt his special effects would be the gag. I think the word gag is more like an effect which provokes a response like the blood gag Sue mentioned as opposed to the special effects used to add details to a landscape or to create dragons/white walkers.

      I really hope Brienne and Jaime’s interactions remain true to the books regardless of

      LSH’s

      inclusion. I’m really tired of show invented plot lines replacing parts of the books that I loved. I mean don’t get me wrong, last season had some superb show only material such as Olenna’s dialogue and Hardhome but I think that one season of show only material is enough for characters like Sansa, Jaime and Brienne.

      P.S. I actually enjoyed certain parts of Sansa’s storyline and Brienne’s scenes also but I think next season it would run smoothly if they returned to their respective book story lines to work towards George’s end game.

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    20. Balon’s bridge death is most likely the “gag” the effects person was referring to. However Melisadre without glamour that a person in this thread suggested sounds interesting option too (if the actress was covered in make-up, with different actress I do not think it would qualify as a gag). Since Brienne bit Hound’s ear of I do not think something similar would happen to her. And anything with dragon’s and white-walkers would be so plot relevant I can not see anything that could be just be left out and put in now. Coldhands would come too late I think, what would be his purpose anymore?

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    21. Let me simplify it. If you’re discussing anything to do with

      Lady Stoneheart,

      you need to cover it. Probably even responding to someone else’s comment about it, but people have a way of making very spoiler-y responses while thinking it’s perfectly innocent.

        Quote  Reply

    22. People that come on this site have either already read the books, or they are actually looking to be spoiled. I don’t see the issue with people having to hide LSH comments, as surely everyone on the planet Earth is aware of her now.

      I don’t think i’ve ever read someone moan on here about being spoiled. And if I am mistaken, i’m sure they were able to carry on living their lives.

        Quote  Reply

    23. Chinoiserie,

      Wonderful. I completely agree! I forgot about

      Balon’s death
      death. It would make perfect sense that this is what they were referring to. It’s something that the writers could have tried in season 4 and again in season 5 but never came to pass. And there is evidence to suggest it may happen this year. It also explains the word gag as the whole faceless man assassination surely involves balon falling from the bridge which by the definition I have come to know would be a special effects gag. I really want to see his death on screen and the aftermath. I hope it’s like the books but with more yara and less horn blowing and tattoo bleeding.

        Quote  Reply

    24. We can know with certainty that the gag does not refer to LSH. Characters need to be in place for that storyline to happen. So it couldn’t have been something they were thinking of including for the past two seasons. Jaime wasn’t where it would happen. The entire season is based on putting characters in places. You don’t just “add” the LSH storyline into a season. Simple as that.

      Nice to see some real possibilities offered above.

        Quote  Reply

    25. My guess is that the “gag” refers to a scene with

      Nymeria and her huge wolfpack.

      They could have done this anytime in seasons 4 or 5.

        Quote  Reply

    26. Sue the Fury:
      Let me simplify it. If you’re discussing anything to do with

      you need to cover it. Probably even responding to someone else’s comment about it, but people have a way of making very spoiler-y responses while thinking it’s perfectly innocent.

      In deference to Sue who gives all here just what they want, and responsibly, covering as ordered is in order!

      Though… I am of the mind that it is silly to come to a site that gives information on filming, scroll down into comments, and then complain about finding a spoiler! I know it’s the book vs. the show that’s being “spoiled,” but the books have been out for a while.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Off-Topic Otto,

      No, there wouldn’t have to be any characters around. D&D just decided it wasn’t the right time to introduce the character yet .They could’ve shown

      LSH

      easily without any POV characters being near the Riverlands. Just like in the book. But I agree that it makes more sense in the show to wait until main characters are more in place.

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    28. Sullied by Knight: [ spoiler ] your spoiler comments [ / spoiler]

      Remove the extra spaces between the word spoiler and the brackets, and the front slash and brackets before publishing your comment.

      [ spoiler ] your spoiler comments [ / spoiler]

      you did follow the example?

      Remove the extra spaces between the word spoiler and the brackets, and the front slash and brackets before publishing your comment.

        Quote  Reply

    29. I have a question for all of you, when does the first Trailer for the season usually release ? If my memory is correct the season 5 trailer came out at the end of January right ? So if filming ends sometime in december, when do you guys think we will get the season 6 trailer ?

        Quote  Reply

    30. Chilli,

      I’m thinking it could be that huge Northern battle that they filmed. It is the first open field battle that they’ve done in full. Imagine a LOTR scale battle in GoT. *orgasms*

        Quote  Reply

    31. Matthew The Dragon Knight:
      I have a question for all of you, when does the first Trailer for the season usually release ? If my memory is correct the season 5 trailer came out at the end of January right ? So if filming ends sometime in december, when do you guys think we will get the season 6 trailer ?

      If they want to put us in agony, somewhere between 12/25/2015 and 01/01/2016.
      January mid point maybe.

        Quote  Reply

    32. HBO usually attaches the trailer to another original series’s finale or premiere to generate additional eyeballs.

        Quote  Reply

    33. January is pretty close, hope I can hold out until then. we are getting a lot of spoilers so I think i’ll manage XD looking forward to what they might show off in the trailer to get us all ready. scenes of the battle, the greyjoys, The dragons and dany, the siege, and some action scenes to get the blood pumping hopefully. getting pretty excited as the days go by.

        Quote  Reply

    34. Off-Topic Otto:
      We can know with certainty that the gag does not refer to LSH. Characters need to be in place for that storyline to happen. So it couldn’t have been something they were thinking of including for the past two seasons. Jaime wasn’t where it would happen. The entire season is based on putting characters in places. You don’t just “add” the LSH storyline into a season. Simple as that.

      Nice to see some real possibilities offered above.

      How can anyone know for any certainty? In fact, many of the pieces for a certain plot line are in place- characters we know who will interact with this certain “character” are rumoured to return to the Riverlands, not to mention the other castings (Freys, bandits, some dude who is a “slave to the evil he serves”).

      From a totally impartial standpoint (I’ve always said it wouldn’t happen on TV and really wasn’t a fan of that plot in the books), but now it really is looking increasingly likely this will come to pass. It’s not a case of simply “slotting” her in needlessly- she’s in the books. And presumably to serve a purpose. Therefore the character cannot simply be dismissed.

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    35. Yep. It seems they have confirmation of Brianne, Jaime, Pod and Bronn all sharing scenes around the Siege of Riverrun, around eps 7 or 8.

      This and the Bower description of being “a servant numb to the horror he serves” has me considering, for the very first time, that maybe LSH isn’t being cut, after all.

      All I need is maybe for the Riverrun Siege episode to be called “Hearts of Stone” and the LSH hype train will be complete. LOL.

        Quote  Reply

    36. I’ve no idea what the postponed bit is, but further to what others have said “gag” is apparently also commonly used in film and tv to describe stunts, so could possibly mean something that needs stunt performers as well as, or instead of, special effects. Not a book reader so I don’t know for sure if this would have fit into the story in S4 and 5, although I would have guessed so, but it might be

      someone falling from a height, like (presumably) a bridge?

        Quote  Reply

    37. Lulus Mum,

      That gag has be stumped, its some incredible they could’ve fit in season 4 and 5. I would have to think about this a bit.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Matthew The Dragon knight,

      Yep.

      It’s funny that for all the talk of season 6 going “off book” quite a bit of stuff that I had assumed D & D were cutting from the books (the Citadel, Kingsmoot, Riverrun, etc.) wasn’t actually cut at all, simply delayed to season six.

        Quote  Reply

    39. I like the idea that the gag pushed back since season 4 is N’s pack.

      Some corner of my brain keeps on muttering “full frontal Theon” but I sincerly know they’ll never go that road ! ^^

        Quote  Reply

    40. Matthew The Dragon knight,
      No clue here I’m afraid and have just made it even more complicated by widening the definition of what it might mean. My grandmother’s known as Gag to the rest of us and I’m pretty sure it’s not her, but that’s about the only thing I’d definitely rule out! 😉

        Quote  Reply

    41. Maybe LSH will happen after all. I thought it was cut and moved on. They moved the RL storyline to Season 6 and are doing LSH stuff. It will most likely be her Winter plot. The meat of that story arc rather than introducing her during Season 4 has a side thing. It is part of D&D’s condensing the storylines to the purpose they served for the ending.

      D&D have the Winter outline so maybe they know her purpose and are doing that instead of just having it as a side story. Where it was a few pages in the books and then nothing else after the end of Brienne’s chapter. Maybe LSH has a bigger role due to many characters converging on the RL. The later books look like the the North and RL have bigger roles. The story is shifting North of KL. I am not surprised that LSH has a bigger role in WOTW and DOS. The focus is changing in the story.

      This season will have lots of people ending up in the RL. It would be a good time to do the character. Especially with Arya coming back. It will be fine if there is no LSH in Season 6 though. It is not the end of the world.

        Quote  Reply

    42. I’m waiting for someone to confirm the WiC spoilers, because if they are true and the following things happen:

      Jaime and Brienne have an encounter that results in Brienne storming out of Jaime’s tent, Pod and Bronn talk, Brienne has a scene with Blackfish,then I think we’re looking at LSH/siege of Riverrun substitution material here and LSH won’t be showing up around Riverrun or be the catalyst that sparks Jaime and Brienne’s reunion. It’s still possible for her to show up closer to the Twins where the Brotherhood was last seen, to be a part of Arya’s storyline, but I don’t think Riverrun is where we’re going to find her.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Sue the Fury: Gag doesn’t mean what I think some of you are thinking it means. It’s a special effects term.

      It is not just a special effects term. On directors commentaries of DVD/BR, they often will use “gag” to describe the “punch line” of a scene. It’s rarely comical, but it means the same thing as in comedy in the sense that you build up to it, and then you deliver. Special effects/action often is involved, but sometimes just dramatic gestures or statements are it, too. For some reason, we “muggles” have come to use it only for humor.

      Tolkien fans were up in arms about this because Peter Jackson constantly referred to setting up the gags in scenes in the directors’ commentaries for Lord of the Rings. “See! He never took this seriously! It was all a joke to him!” Movie-types set the record straight: in theater and film, it means any punch line, not just a comic one (and not just a spoken one).

      That stated, in a story like this there is a very good chance that the gag will involve special effects and/or crazy stunts. (Most of PJ’s examples from LotR were like that, as there usually was some big stunt and/or effect to punctuate a set of scenes.) For example, something like the Wall coming down would be the gag of some scene: if/when that happens, there almost certainly will be some dramatic build up with some people racing to cause it and others racing to prevent it, or something like that. And then it will happen with (hopefully!) spectacular visuals and then be the main takeaway point from that scene. Stuff involving Dragons would be good candidates, too. No doubt there are lots of other candidates we could imagine without too much effort.

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    44. Off-Topic Otto,

      But the show has done just that: it never has added new characters until they were relevant. This is the first year that LSH would have been brought back: LSH had no part in Crows/Dragons (being in all of 1 page in both books), so unless they had invented a lot of stuff for her (implausible because they had to find stuff for the main characters to do, and it was a stuffed season as it was) there was no reason to introduce her.

      To the same end, Euron is being introduced this year de novo. He wasn’t relevant to the story before now, so he does not appear before now. There are numerous other characters like that this year. (And there will be again next year.)

      That said, at this point I really doubt that they will use LSH. The two characters she affects in the books probably will not be that important in the end-game, and with only three seasons left, they really need to concentrate on setting up that end-game.

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    45. Angela,

      Oh…

      I have to say I proposed the Nymeria’s pack idea when those news came out… I don’t think that D&D will invest such a gig for Balon’s fall or a Theon’s full frontal… the ice spiders is a good idea… that could happen when we first saw the Lands of Always Winter in S4, or Hardhome in S5 and now in S6 but anyway, in my heart… I hope that these news mean unCat… oh, such a lovely, sweet character 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    46. Dazzatron221b: I don’t see the issue with people having to hide LSH comments, as surely everyone on the planet Earth is aware of her now.

      Hardly. The vast majority of show-watchers do not read the books and pay zero attention to much about the show beyond news of when it is coming back. After all, what proportion of TV shows do you follow like this? I follow two like this: Thrones and Doctor Who; and lately I’ve stopped paying much as much attention to Doctor Who! (I actually had not heard any rumors that Missy was the Master last year: but it turns out that a lot of people speculated that she was. What can I say: the Capaldi era has not captivated me!) Now, I’ve heard people mention stuff in this detail about other shows occasionally, so I know it happens: but I never run in to it on my own.

      So, if LSH appears, then it will be quite a surprise to most of the viewers.

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    47. Wimsey,

      When you say… “the end-game” what do you mean?

      Because I see two big events… 1) Dany taking Westeros; 2) the White Walkers invassion. I don’t think neither of them will take 10 episodes. Gods, that would be boring. There’s a lot of room for side events in S7 and S8. I mean, Dany will be in Westeros in S7, but there will be room for set up the White Walkers invassion as well for other arcs.

      e.g. Jaime and Brienne stuff with LSH

      Maybe Jaime won’t survive S7… because he won’t be important for the “end-game” but he has to have and end… well,

      LSH could be his end, and the begining of other stuff for the end-game.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Wimsey:

      That said, at this point I really doubt that they will use LSH.The two characters she affects in the books probably will not be that important in the end-game, and with only three seasons left, they really need to concentrate on setting up that end-game.

      Wimsey, I will bet you 20 American Dollars

      that she does appear in Season 6.

      Up for it?

      Off topic: Maisie really killed it in Doctor Who this weekend, if any of you non-Whovians want to check it out. She had some really great dialogue/scenes with The Doctor.

        Quote  Reply

    49. kit_hepburn,

      I hope most of that is bullshit.

      Umbers fighting with the Boltons? Blackfish replacing LSH? My hype train needs R’hllor.

        Quote  Reply

    50. StandOzone:
      Angela,

      Oh…

      I think it is either LSH or the wolf pack. Those are the things that were missing from Season 4. ASOS had LSH and the wolf pack. They cut them from that season. So, I think it is the missing RL stuff. D&D just moved it to where it would have the most impact. When a bunch of characters are coming to the RL for their storylines.

      The two traveling duos of Jaime /Bronn and Brienne/Pod, Arya, BF is back, and it looks like the leftover BWB is back. If you are going to do LSH, then Season 6 is perfect because there will be solid stories to put her in. They can merge the two revenge plots of Arya and LSH w/ the leftover BWB together. It would come full circle for Arya too with her Season 3 storyline. GRRM likes to bring stories back around and show how different it is after a couple of books. Could you imagine if Arya met up with BWB again with LSH as their leader? I would like to see that happen. Her undead Mom traveling with the BWB going after Freys. It would be so messed up yet good at the same time. You never know though. I could be wrong though.

      That is totally messed up what I just speculated.

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    51. One of Roose Bolton’s 20 good leeches,

      IIRC from the books…

      Freys still hold the Greatjon, I’d be surprised if the Umbars turn on the Boltons. Wiki says half the Umbars are with Stannis under Whoresbane…maybe that half (if any survived in show) will join Jon?

      ETA: It’s not confirmed show that Rickon is with Umbars, is it?

      In books, Manderly tells Davos that Rickon is in Skagos

        Quote  Reply

    52. One of Roose Bolton’s 20 good leeches:
      kit_hepburn,

      I hope most of that is bullshit.

      My guess, and it’s just a guess, is the stuff about

      Pod, Brienne, Jaime, and Bronn being at Riverrun is accurate. We already knew Brienne and Jaime would be there, and Pod and Bronn seem to go where Brienne and Jaime do, respectively. The info. about the scenes in the tents may even be accurate. As for the Umbers fighting for the Boltons, though, I think that’s inaccurate. We already pretty much knew the Karstarks would side with the Boltons (it’s what’s set up in the books, and I don’t see any reason, even though the Karstarks didn’t do the tricking Stannis thing in the show, they wouldn’t end up fighting for the Boltons, anyway), but I don’t think there is any way I hell the Umbers would side with the Boltons. The only way, in fact, I think it would even appear the Umbers are siding with the Boltons is if they transpose the Karstark trickery onto the Umbers…in other words, the Umbers will pretend to support the Boltons, then turn on them. The last we knew, Rickon was heading for The Last Hearth. Why in hell would the Umbers decide, instead of fighting for the rightful heir to Winterfell, to support the Boltons who not only slew the Starks, but members of their own family? It make no sense…none whatsoever.

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    53. Luka Nieto: The interview was with a special effects guy so… yeah, it’s a special effects gag, in this case.

      Oh, sure : it certainly is here. It just is a somewhat more general term. I don’t know what it would be in this case. LSH does not really work: yes, there would be effects, but it would not be a big “punchline” type of effect the way that, say, the Wall coming down or Drogon torching a Dothraki temple or Jon killing the White Walker. The latter two do not seem like good candidates: they were not things that might have happened in the last two years.

      So, color me stumped.

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    54. Wimsey,

      Ah, that happen in show, did it? I forgot, so thx for confirm. Do you remember if Greatjon is a Frey hostage in show? If not, then yeah I call shennanigans on

      Umbers joining Boltons against Starks

        Quote  Reply

    55. A special effects gag usually involves bodily harm. You can’t actually hurt someone, so it has to be a gag or a joke. It’s things like that dude’s neck that Hodor broke. The prosthetic was a gag. The 48 different ways Neil Marshall can make a head explode…all gags. Theon’s missing fingers. Gag. Throat slits, dismemberment, flaying…. The sausage was a prop.

        Quote  Reply

    56. Angela,

      Regarding the Riverlands, I like your thoughts here.

      While I do not think the gag comments point directly to

      LSHeart’s appearance, I am still hopeful we may get her. I am thinking the gag may be something as “mundane” as ice spiders. Potentially Balon’s death. Or maybe even Nymeria pulling a decayed corpse from a river…
      Re: LSH. I agree, we don’t yet know the relevance of her TWOW plot after the meeting with Brienne and Jaime, and if GRRM figured the scene featuring ‘one word’ was important enough for their stories moving forward to leave them both on this cliffhanger, I am inclined to believe that DnD will follow suit, rather than adapt completely new material for them to move through.
      The thing that has thrown everybody off is the time at which they have chosen to introduce this character (if, in fact, they do). I was in the camp that thought (hoped) we would see her in season 4’s opening scene, or closing scene. I then reluctantly gave up the cause. But I never thought they would use this to close out season 3, as many hoped, as that would cheapen the RW and ultimately yeah- it was just too early.
      It seems more likely to me now that they would wait until after Jon’s resurrection to show her. It seems she and Jon have unfinished business. I don’t believe her monologue back in S3 about reluctantly saving the sickly bastard was just further character development. I think it had more to do with the future relationship between the two of them.
      Re: The Riverlands. Historically, the Riverlands is the region where many battles were held that ultimately decided a war’s outcome. I think it likely we will see this pattern repeat itself. At the very least I believe we will see events of high importance play out here.
      I am hoping Arya starts warging- maybe in the absence of dreams thus far, the show suggests that her blindness induces this? How rad would it be if she starts entering into the consciousness of a big fucking bitch of a wolf at the head of a fearless pack- and ultimately sees the aforementioned decayed corpse of her mother pulled out of the river?? I think this would be a great motivation for her to give the HOBAW the finger and make for westeros. I think “casual viewers” “show apologists” “book purists” and whatever ridiculous term gets thrown around to describe fans these days would all be stoked at this bit of storytelling.

        Quote  Reply

    57. Luka Nieto,
      special effects ?
      Spiders as big as hounds ? the white walkers always play a big role every season.
      sigh…
      this is going to bother me for weeks.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Laura,

      I would bet against it. I have stated many times before that this is the season where she would be brought back if they were going to do so (in response to “Why were we not given a cliffhanger after Season 3? after Season 4? after season 5?”)

      However, at this point I am beginning to become skeptical. I suppose that I could see them doing something like the Missy unveil last year on Doctor Who: but my concern is whether LSH can possibly effect any of the really important characters. At this point, I am skeptical.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Sister Kisser,

      This could well be the year that Arya starts showing those abilities. People have asked why this did not being earlier, and the answer is pretty simple: it was never relevant to the story being told that season, and the show does not include plot elements not relevant to that season’s story. However, it could become important in Winter. (Let’s hope it does: it will be crummy writing by GRRM if it does not!) And therefore it might be worth putting in the show this year.

      So, if it is ever to be done, then now is the time.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Sister Kisser,

      I’m with you here. They gotta introduce Arya having

      wolf dreams/warging into Nymeria. I wonder what will ultimately motivate her to go back to the Riverlands specifically? Will she actually see LSH through Nymeria? I’m assuming in the show timeline that it’s been a while since Nym dragged Catelyn out of the river, so maybe Arya sees Cat through Nym’s dreams? Perhaps Arya just concludes that Nymeria’s still alive and sets out for the region of the Riverlands where she last saw her wolf (Inn at the Crossroads/Darry lands).

      Fun speculation!

        Quote  Reply

    61. Blind Arya gets her warg on & reconnects with Nymeria or sees something personally disturbing through her eyes in the Riverlands. The Waif tries to punish Arya for Trant. Arya has to escape & decides to find her direwolf because where else is she going to go and because she thinks Nymeria is all that remains of her pack. Or perhaps the play makes her want to find and save her sister if she is still alive since she has the skills now to infiltrate & eviscerate.

        Quote  Reply

    62. didn’t D&D want bran to be the only

      warg of the starks ? so bran could be special or unique ?

      or I could be mistaken. well they also said they wasn’t going to do flashbacks either, we all know how that turned out. if I understand correctly

      Jon and Arya are in the perfect position to discover their warg abilities,

      and it would fit right in their story arcs no problem.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Matthew The Dragon knight,

      Arya, in the books…

      …knowingly wargs a cat when she is blind, using its eyes to see the Kindly Man and smack him. It’s after that that she goes from blind Beth to Mercy.

      Of course, I have no idea how the show will move through these events 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    64. Robb Snow:
      James Rivers,

      No. Fucking. Way. How did I miss that casting description? That’s almost a little too specific.

      The train kept a rollin’…

      I’m even more surprised nobody noticed anything odd about THIS casting notice from a few months ago:

      “Female, early 50’s. Looking for an actress with a strong resemblance to Michelle Fairley, but preferably with extensive scarring on the neck, and an overall corpselike visage. This is a great role for an experienced actress with such an overwhelming thirst for vengeance, the grave itself cannot quench it. This character will shoot four episodes, and host the Christmas special, as well.”

      I think the hype train had better be ready to accommodate a whole bunch of hop-ons.

        Quote  Reply

    65. King in the North Carolina,

      Hold on a second, that can’t be right. if there was a casting notice that obvious someone would have posted it already, and no one would be guessing if that character would be on the show. which leads to A it was posted awhile ago and proven fake or B no one saw it, highly doubt letter B.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Thank you to everyone who is providing us with all this info and thank you WotW and its commenters for teaching me so much about GoT!

        Quote  Reply

    67. Morgan,

      Maybe that’s the red carpet event, you know when everyone involved with the show and critics I think watch the show before anyone else. The thing is I believe a previous season premiered on March 31st, so good find if that’s what he is talking about.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Matthew The Dragon knight,

      I don’t think that Jon will ever warg on the show unlike Arya. There is a chance and judging by GRRM comments Nymeria and her pack will play a critical role in the end. As for Jon he might not need that at all. He was killed with no warging involved and probably will be resurrected.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Wimsey,

      Matt,

      Rygritte,

      We shall see about the wolves, and Arya. I will be encouraged if Jaime, or anybody, passing through the inn at the crossroads happen upon rumors of a giant fearless pack of wolves led by a massive direwolf…

      Then we’ll know it’s on. We shall see.

        Quote  Reply

    70. One of Roose Bolton’s 20 good leeches: Umbers fighting with the Boltons? Blackfish replacing LSH? My hype train needs R’hllor.

      About those spoilers on WIC:

      I’ve read the rumour that the Umbers will be against Jon. I first thought it was untrue, but once something is confirmed twice it is difficult to deny.

      I wonder if Sansa somehow becomes involved with Umbers. I dont think the Stark would stand against each other, but what if Sansa and Jon ended up fighting on opposite ends.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Boudica,

      Umbers might be Bolton allies, but only to switch sides?

      Last time we heard about Rickon. He,Osha and Shaggydog were on the way to Last Hearth.

      Confirmed twice? Apart from WiC who else? Is there any time or need or a Stark feud? Dany is coming sooner or later and White Walkers will attack sooner or later. They will need to move from those Northern affairs to a bigger picture that is WW.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Boudica,

      Confirmed twice? When was the first time?

      The Umbers going against Jon does make sense though. And it would make things more interesting, I think. Then the question would be whether they are really loyal to the Boltons or whether they are planning their own betrayal. Also what would Sansa’s role be in this case?

        Quote  Reply

    73. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      I also think

      the first part about Riverrun will be correct. The source could be an extra who has witnessed the scenes with Brienne and Jaime. But I don’t think a Riverrun extra would know things about the north.

      Or the source is someone from the crew, but he could lose his job by telling this to WISC.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Guys guys guys.

      What people need to remember is that Jon may have risen from the dead but who’s going to believe that? To the rest of the world he’s still a bastard and a night’s watch deserter. Why would the umbers or any other house want to back him and his army of wildling savages? Think about it

        Quote  Reply

    75. Geralt of Rivia: Umbers might be Bolton allies, but only to switch sides?Last time we heard about Rickon. He,Osha and Shaggydog were on the way to Last Hearth.

      Confirmed twice? Apart from WiC who else? Is there any time or need or a Stark feud? Dany is coming sooner or later and White Walkers will attack sooner or later. They will need to move from those Northern affairs to a bigger picture that is WW.

      Yes,

      on second thought the Umber might just replace the Manderly’s. They could pretend to join the Boltons and betray them. That would be perfectly in line with the Great Northern Conspiracy.
      It is much more logical. If Rickon has been at Last Harth all of this time, then the Umbers have been protecting him from the Boltons. If the Umbers where on the side of the Boltons then they could have delivered Rickon to them ages ago.

      I ve seen it on Reddit:
      https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/3nxa95/spoilers_alltheory_can_i_get_an_update_on_what_we/
      Here the original comments was deleted but you can still make out that the Umbers side with the Boltons:
      https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/3mdr09/jon_snow_lives/

        Quote  Reply

    76. Does anyone know if they are done filming at the Riverrun set completely? Or has filming still been going on after that last picture Sue posted, where it looked like there was some siege aftermath?

        Quote  Reply

    77. BaelorBalerionBaelish: What people need to remember is that Jon may have risen from the dead but who’s going to believe that? To the rest of the world he’s still a bastard and a night’s watch deserter. Why would the umbers or any other house want to back him and his army of wildling savages? Think about it

      That is also very true. If the Umbers have been keeping Rickon safe all of this time then they might also be a bit weary of Jon in the beginning. If Rickon is actually with the Umbers, that is.

      But it also depends on the circumstances, how desperate are they to get rid of the Boltons? I think the Boltons are universally despised in the North. In books we see that they are even willing to back Stannis. Everyone is the North knows that Jon grew up in Winterfell and that he was raised very similar to him true born siblings.
      If Jon goes around the North with an army trying to rise support against the Boltons, even as bastard they might go for it.
      Or perhaps this is where Robb’s will or last wishes could come in. If they knew that Robb named Jon or wanted to name Jon as his heir, then it would be pretty easy for them.

      Now I am actually wondering what exactly the Nights Watch will do after Jon’s assassination. I bet they will send letters to everyone in the North that Jon was killed by the Wildlings. If Jon then suddenly reappeared again with the Wildlings by his side then people would realize that the Nights Watch was lying, or at least that there is some sort betrayal going on.

      ghost of winterfell

      You need to delete all of the spaces in-between the words for example [ spoi should be [spoil.

        Quote  Reply

    78. ghost of winterfell,

      Yes I agree, I honestly dont think that the Vale army will be involved with this battle at all. There where absolutely no signs of Vale banners or anything, and no one reported seeing Vale banners. Aidan Gillen was also nowhere to be seen, and other actors associated with the Vale such as the actor for Yohn Royce has confirmed that he will only be shooting again in December. I do think that this will solely be a battle of the North.

      I guess this person knew something and speculated on the rest of the details, that is why I didn’t take it very seriously when I saw it originally. But the part about the Umbers seems true enough now.

        Quote  Reply

    79. Boudica:
      ghost of winterfell,

      Yes I agree, I honestly dont think that the Vale army will be involved with this battle at all. There where absolutely no signs of Vale banners or anything, and no one reported seeing Vale banners. Aidan Gillen was also nowhere to be seen, and other actors associated with the Vale such as the actor for Yohn Royce has confirmed that he will only be shooting again in December. I do think that this will solely be a battle of the North.

      I guess this person knew something and speculated on the rest of the details, that is why I didn’t take it very seriously when I saw it originally. But the part about the Umbers seems true enough now.

      There were photos before here or on WiC what confirmed the Vale’s army at the North. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    80. Boudica,

      Thanks. I’ ll try again!

      Jon taking the wildlings support may actually be a hindrance to him though, when it comes to the other Northern houses. As far as the northeners are concerned, the wildlings are their biggest enemy/ threat and have been so for thousands of years. So if they had to choose between two sides, one the Boltons and second, a wildling army ( even if it is led by the bastard of winterfell) what would they choose. They may consider the wildlings a bigger threat than the Boltons. At the very least Jon will have to improve his persuasive powers!

        Quote  Reply

    81. ghost of winterfell,

      That is very true they could have the same problems with him as the Nights Watch. Especially the Umbers, their suffered the most under Wildling raiding parties.

      But if Rickon has been residing at Last Harth they might have gained some small appreciation for Ohsa. But that is still just one person against a whole army.
      I dont know like I said it depends on how desperate they are, I think. If Rickon is there it also means that they have been planning to somehow launch an attack against the Boltons. Jon could just be that final cog to drive them forward.
      I think they will be concerned for Rickon, bastards does have a bad reputation at times. They might want to see if Jon is threat for Rickon.

      Of course I think Jon’s main concern will always be the White Walkers, he would want to unite the North against the White Walkers. He does have a giant with him, perhaps he could persuade someone in the North, that if there are giants around then there might also be White Walkers around.

      This could be a tricky situation.

        Quote  Reply

    82. Boudica,

      Thanks for the links.

      Umbers switching sides could be great, because otherwise it would be confusing why would they do that. That would ultimately reduce the need of Manderly’s even tho I would like to see them and especially Wyman Manderly.

      I agree with you about Northerners being suspicious of Jon. Not everybody is going to believe him being reborn and to them he would be just a deserter from Night’s Watch, Wildlings reputation is far from best in the North, Red Priestess might be with him (not Old Gods but R’hllor)) and Jon might be usurping Winterfell from legitimate son of Ned Stark in their eyes. I never expected that it will be easy for Jon to convince Northerners to cooporate, but this whole Umbers among others not trusting Jon and Wildlings makes sense. Some Northerners might trust him but Umbers might not be one of those and Karstarks are cleary for me. Another thing is White Walkers stories which none of them would believe or most of them.

      Robb’s will never made it to the show if I remember this correctly, right?

        Quote  Reply

    83. Let me remind everyone of the post with the leaked picture that shows Jon wearing a certain uniform. I do not believe it is just Jon and Wildlings against Bolton or combined northern forces.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Newbietothegame,

      That’s right.

      Jon, Wildlings and what I believe will be some other Northerners such as Mormonts, Hornwoods, Glovers might be there too. Not all Notherners will be against Jon, but Umbers might be extremely careful and suspicious of Jon with Rickon being in Last Hearth. Their last hope.

        Quote  Reply

    85. The gag she’s referring to, and I’m 99.9% certain I’m correct so there is no need to investigate this any further, is

      the burning of the Tower of the Hand. If you all remember the large amount of fuel being stored for a huge event. Well, the only thing I can think of that would require that much fuel and could have been done in season 4 or 5, would be the burning of the Tower.

      So, mystery solved. You’re welcome.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Well that

      Jon – Umber thing, if it happens , it will not be something unlogic . I also believe they might change side the last minute and Boltons will end surrounded. All this Sansa and Rickon will unite Northern Lords to support Jon to take the North didn’t sound right.

      it sound too good to be GoT.
      I am not sure if people in the North know where Sansa is at the 9 episode…maybe she hides or something…
      One director said that fans will be very happy this season, assuming most of the people are Stark fans… a battle win and even a RW 2 will make most of the audience happy.

        Quote  Reply

    87. BaelorBalerionBaelish: I would like to add that I am very sceptical of the word ‘gag’. It’s not a word I’d use to describe the resurrection or a respectable character… perhaps the word bears another meaning in the dictionary I’m not sure.

      I think the “gag” is the burning of the Tower of the Hand. Remember all the fuel seen being stored for a massive fire? Well the only thing I can think of that would require that much fuel, and could have taken place in either season 4 or 5, is Cersei’s burning of the ToH. Her literary descent into madness is beginning to make its way to the tv show.

        Quote  Reply

    88. I’m afraid to say that you guys are overthinking the gag thing.

      Sorry to ruin the fun, but it wouldn’t be something as dependant on the plot as LSH or something like that because, even if D&D briefly considered putting her in season 4 or 5, that wouldn’t reach as far down as the special effects supervisor. Even the ice spiders are a stretch, unless major rewrites went on. Falling off a bridge is also out; that’s not a remotely interesting challenge.

      It has to be something that happens on the show often, isn’t dependant on a particular storyline, and relies on effects. So, probably a particularly gory and visually interesting way to slice up a person, or something like that.

      Not exciting, I know. But that’s just much more likely.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Why, oh why, did I go to WiC and read the comments? While there is a discussion about the Umbers, “Matt” (who claims that his sources are “100% accurate”) makes a dire prediction about

      Ghost

      which I wish I hadn’t read. In WotW I trust, however.

      As for the “gag,” give me a seat on the Nymeria hype train.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Off-Topic Otto: Gag for the wolfpack is a good bet.

      It really isn’t. That would be too related to a specific storyline; even if D&D had thought about including it in Season 4 and 5, I very much doubt it’d have reached the ears of the VFX guys. It’s also not interesting or exciting; the difficult part is making the real wolves do what you want them to do in the green screen room. Adding them into the scene and making them appear larger is not remotely challenging. It’s tedious, mundane work.

      An interesting direwolf-caused death, though? Maybe.

      Off-Topic Otto: Or how about actually showing somebody being flayed alive?

      That’s much more likely.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Re: that potentially spoilery Reddit post linked upthread…

      I tend to think that the poster knew what they were talking about, since it’s not intuitive to state with such certainty that the Umbers would be opposing Jon. I’m a bit worried as to what that means for Rickon if the poster is correct in assuming that the Umbers have truly betrayed the Starks and sided with the Boltons.

      With that said, that same poster also claims

      that there are Vale soldiers involved in the battle, when there’s no filming information to back up that claim

      , so we’ll see as to who’s telling the truth, LOL.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Anybody who thinks the S6 “gag” that got pulled from S4 & S5 has anything to do with

      Lady

      fucking

      Stoneheart

      is totes wack.

      That is NOT the sort of throwaway “maybe we’ll do this” type of thing that can be initially “in” a season (twice) and then just pulled without any major concerns.

      I get that it’s something that would probably be the very last shot of an episode, if not the season itself, which makes it seem like it could be pulled and saved for next year without effecting the season as a whole… but I’m sure one of the first things decided every year is what the epic “end of season” shot is gonna be… and it’s never the sort of thing where you later say, “nah, maybe we’ll throw it in next year, i’m supes tired of filming right now guyz.”

      Any opinions to the contrary are, again, totes wack.

      Ridiculous.

      Cleganebowl confirmed. The SFX “gag” will be the geysers and rivers and ‘splosions of blood and gore.

        Quote  Reply

    93. M,

      Meh, even other WiC posters are calling BS on “Matt”. Either Sue confirms it, or it’s “pix or it didn’t happen” for me.

      OT, but sad to see peeps hating on WotW in the comments there. The commentors at westeros.org are way more WotW friendly (which is how I found this site to begin with).

        Quote  Reply

    94. M,

      I don’t think that really says anything. If you’re making up fake spoilers for your own amusement, obviously you will assert your confidence in them.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Just a bit of wild speculation, but if those reddit spoilers are correct about the Vale troops fighting on Jon’s side and taking into consideration what Liam Cunningham said about Sansa’s plot being good this year, do you guys think Sansa could kill Littlefinger this season? Hasn’t it been speculated that Sansa would be the one kill him? If she becomes disillusioned with him and she meets up with Jon/hears about what he is doing I don’t doubt that she would side with her brother. She may end up killing Littlefinger and getting the Vale troops to fight alongside Jon. But, is season 6 too early for the chaos climber to die?

        Quote  Reply

    96. Name *,

      I can’t find the WiC post, but it says

      Tullys, Brienne and Jaime fighting (possibly about Sansa), Bronn and Pod happily hanging around and the Umbers and Karstarks joining Bolton’s side on SnowBowl.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Name *,

      Here’s what L7R posted on the northern news:

      We’ve talked several times about the battle that will take place around Winterfell, tagged as the Battle of Bastards or the Battle of the Six Armies.

      On this occasion, our friends at WiC bring us information yet to be published: The Bolton army led by Ramsay Bolton will be backed not only by the Karstarks but also by the Umbers.

      We had already discovered that Jon’s side would have the support of various northern houses, like House Mormont per example, wildlings and even Davos . . . however, until today no one had published that the two northern houses that will be featured most prominently next season (besides the Boltons) will be supporting the Dreadfort.

        Quote  Reply

    98. The idea of the Umbers

      legitimately siding with the Boltons is preposterous. The rumor is either bullshit, or the Umbers are pulling a Wyman Manderly.

        Quote  Reply

    99. Sister Kisser: through the inn at the crossroads happen upon rumors of a giant fearless pack of wolves led by a massive direwolf…

      They will show rather than tell. For example, they might show them stumbling on wolf kills, or hearing/seeing wolves in the distance. People talking about it is fine in books because everything is communicated verbally in books. However, it’s a very poor way to do it on TV.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Thanks for the translations. It sounds more like they’re repeating it than confirming it, so I’ll wait to see if Sue confirms it before I fully believe. However, it could be quite interesting, I think, if the Umbers pretended to be fighting for the Boltons and then (hopefully!) switch sides. Perhaps they attack the Bolton troops from behind/within and open up Winterfell’s gates for Jon and co. What will happen with the Karstarks? I can imagine that they’d fight for the Boltons with no intention of double-crossing them, but will they get destroyed or will what’s left of them afterwards somehow join up with Jon’s cause?

        Quote  Reply

    101. Boudica: I bet they will send letters to everyone in the North that Jon was killed by the Wildlings. If Jon then suddenly reappeared again with the Wildlings by his side then people would realize that the Nights Watch was lying, or at least that there is some sort betrayal going on.

      More probably they will say that he was executed for abetting a Wildling invasion. When they see Jon alive, then they will think that the execution was botched.

      But this (once again!) brings us back to a huge question: how is Jon going to convince any Northerners that he is not a traitor/deserter who should be executed? He’s in a very similar plight as Daeny is in with the Dothraki. (This is why I keep harping on story: all the protagonists have to have some parallels in their character evolution or there is no story.) We have a good idea how Daeny will do it: the Dothraki will see that Drogon is her tool, and because the Dothraki respect strength so much, this will sway them to consider her an exception to their usual rules.

      But how is Jon going to do it? That he is alive will make people think that the reports were wrong, not that the NW was lying or that Jon was being betrayed. That he is with Wildlings will only reinforce this idea. If he has Melisandre with him, then that might even further damage his credibility.

      Now, I know some people think that Jon will now be Azor Ahai, and that he will speak with reverb in his voice, that his eyes will glow, steam will rise from his boots and that he will move with some eerie inhuman grace, etc. However, one thing that Jon & others certainly will learn in the end is that AA was just a man who happened to be in the right place at the right time: and that is all that Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, etc. will be. And to that end, Jon needs some agency to convince people not simply to follow him, but even just to leave his head on his shoulders.

      And, of course, this might set up why the Umbers might initially side with the Boltons. It would not be siding with the Boltons so much as it would be uniting against the Wildlings and the Traitor Snow. If so, then how is Jon going to change their minds? (Rickon and Sansa could be key here, too.)

        Quote  Reply

    102. Luka Nieto,

      It’d make sense too, the whole line about putting it off season after season.

      In Season 4 Ramsay flayed the Ironborn at Moat Cailin.

      In Season 5 we saw the flayed bodies of Lord and Lady Cerwyn, and the old lady who was acting as a go-between between Brienne and Sansa was flayed too.

      So there’s been the potential for a few seasons now for a gruesome special effects scene where they show somebody being flayed. That could quite possibly be the effects “gag” they’re talking about.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Luka Nieto,

      It’d make sense too, the whole line about putting it off season after season.

      In Season 4 Ramsay flayed the Ironborn at Moat Cailin.

      In Season 5 we saw the flayed bodies of Lord and Lady Cerwyn, and the old lady who was acting as a go-between between Brienne and Sansa was flayed too.

      So there’s been the potential for a few seasons now for a gruesome special effects scene where they show somebody being flayed. That could quite possibly be the effects “gag” they’re talking about.

      Watching THAT would make me gag.
      Pun intended.
      I just don’t see that happening. You guys being excited about that makes me worried.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Wimsey:

      And, of course, this might set up why the Umbers might initially side with the Boltons.It would not be siding with the Boltons so much as it would be uniting against the Wildlings and the Traitor Snow.If so, then how is Jon going to change their minds? (Rickon and Sansa could be key here, too.)

      They may be taking advantage of the situation, as well. Jon, the wildlings and a bunch of Northerners are going to make an attempt for Winterfell which has a chance of success. If they do turn on the Boltons, then they may already be inside Winterfell which will be an ideal place to reveal (either in person or in word) that they have Rickon and say that the other Northerners (in Jon’s army) should turn away from Ned Stark’s bastard and follow a trueborn Stark. In that way, the Boltons are defeated, the traitorous bastard has been dealt with and the Umbers gain respect (and power?) because they sheltered a Stark. Which comes back to your point; how is Jon going to deal with this?

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    105. I think the gag is bran and 3 eyed raven be present at tower of joy but not physically… It easily could be something the kept thinking bout putting in but held off

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    106. Name *:
      Just a bit of wild speculation, but if those reddit spoilers are correct about the Vale troops fighting on Jon’s side and taking into consideration what Liam Cunningham said about Sansa’s plot being good this year, do you guys think Sansa could kill Littlefinger this season? Hasn’t it been speculated that Sansa would be the one kill him? If she becomes disillusioned with him and she meets up with Jon/hears about what he is doing I don’t doubt that she would side with her brother. She may end up killing Littlefinger and getting the Vale troops to fight alongside Jon. But, is season 6 too early for the chaos climber to die?

      My guess is that’s exactly how Sansa’s arc will end in S6. Remember, she has shot scenes with Aiden at the WF set a while back. I really can’t see much more that LF can add other than either ruling the North as regent or trying to unite the North, Vale and Riverlands to march on KL to usurp the throne. Sansa’s next meeting with him cannot go well considering what has happened and she will no doubt be told some home truths by the Northern Lords or even Brienne.

      Besides which- she has a prophecy to fulfil:

      I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow. [/ spoiler]

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    107. Geralt of Rivia: Robb’s will never made it to the show if I remember this correctly, right?

      No Robbs will was never featured, and even in the books it might just be one big red herring. But at the same time if they have shown Robb announcing Jon as his heir or talking to Catelyn about Jon being his heir, might have given away to much at an early stage. If his will was mentioned then people would expect something to come from it, or people will just simply forget it.
      The Tower of Joy was somewhat of a similar situation, they couldn’t show it at an early stage because it would give to much away, or people will just forget about it. But I dont think Robb’s will is really necessary here, it is just something that could be useful, so we’ll see.

      This whole situation in the North might be quite strange.

      They might not trust Jon that much especially if he shows up with the wildlings. But the Umbers could also be playing for time, they might watch or keep an eye on Jon during the battle in order to determine his character, and then they might switch sides. Perhaps they might also know something about Wildling culture and they might know that the Wildlings wouldn’t just support Jon without a good reason.
      But it is difficult to say, they will not have the full support of the North, and some families might still have hostage left from the red wedding. Once the Boltons are overthrown then they would properly support him.
      I wonder if the Mormonts knows about Longclaw, that Longclaw was given to Jon because he saved Jeor Mormonts life? That could at least help his standing with the Mormonts.

      Sansa’s situation is potentially also quite interesting. From public appearances they might make some interesting assumptions about Sansa. First she was married to a Lannister, and then after escaping from Joffery’s wedding she ends up in the North married to Ramsay Bolton, and then she escapes from him.
      Perhaps they will just assume she was a pawn, but some Northern Lords might also be suspicious about her loyalties.

      It would be the easiest to rally around Rickon.

      M: Re: that potentially spoilery Reddit post linked upthread…

      I think this might be a case of half truths, this person perhaps really knows about the Umbers, but the rest sounds like speculation. I am not sure how well some of the extra’s actually understands or watch the show.
      I dont believe the part about the Vale. I think it would be suicide for Littlefinger to march the army of the Vale into the North with those raging blizzards.
      It would much easier for Littlefinger to go to the Riverlands, there he can strike out easily to any place he wants to. He might just try to grab power in Kings Landing against the Sparrows. Why care about the North, when Kings Landing could soon be up for easy pickings?
      But that is just my speculation, there were no sign of the Vale at the Saintsfied so I dont believe the Vale will be involved.

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    108. Name *,

      I really doubt any of the Stark kids would go against each other. Rickon in the show is old enough to remember Jon very well and what he will remember is that he loved Jon and that Jon loved him. Rickon is, if they maintained any of his personality from the books, feisty and headstrong, he will eventually do as he thinks is right. There’s also Bran, don’t forget Bran. Bran can communicate with any of them, he wouldn’t let his siblings go at each other.

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    109. Danny:

      I really doubt any of the Stark kids would go against each other.Rickon in the show is old enough to remember Jon very well and what he will remember is that he loved Jon and that Jon loved him.Rickon is, if they maintained any of his personality from the books, feisty and headstrong, he will eventually do as he thinks is right.There’s also Bran, don’t forget Bran.Bran can communicate with any of them, he wouldn’t let his siblings go at each other.

      Oh no! I wasn’t saying that I think Rickon himself would try to work against Jon (I want a Stark reunion where they’re all having a big group hug and sobbing onto each other’s shoulders!), but the Umbers might. How much of a say in military and political matters would a boy (even a Stark boy) get? Eh, I don’t know! I just want season 6 right now.

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    110. Newbietothegame: This. I hate to say it, but seeing Ramsey being flayed I might enjoy.

      Are you me? Watching a realistic portrayal of someone being flayed sounds completely revolting, but I could manage if it was Ramsay. He can’t die slowly or painfully enough for me, but things aren’t fair and he’ll probably have an amazing life and outlive everyone 🙁

      Oh and agree, it sounds like the sort of thing that special effects people would love to have a go at as a challenge but couldn’t really be shown in any detail, which is probably a good thing!

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    111. Wimsey: More probably they will say that he was executed for abetting a Wildling invasion. When they see Jon alive, then they will think that the execution was botched.

      But this (once again!) brings us back to a huge question: how is Jon going to convince any Northerners that he is not a traitor/deserter who should be executed? He’s in a very similar plight as Daeny is in with the Dothraki. (This is why I keep harping on story: all the protagonists have to have some parallels in their character evolution or there is no story.) We have a good idea how Daeny will do it: the Dothraki will see that Drogon is her tool, and because the Dothraki respect strength so much, this will sway them to consider her an exception to their usual rules.

      But how is Jon going to do it? That he is alive will make people think that the reports were wrong, not that the NW was lying or that Jon was being betrayed. That he is with Wildlings will only reinforce this idea. If he has Melisandre with him, then that might even further damage his credibility.

      Now, I know some people think that Jon will now be Azor Ahai, and that he will speak with reverb in his voice, that his eyes will glow, steam will rise from his boots and that he will move with some eerie inhuman grace, etc. However, one thing that Jon & others certainly will learn in the end is that AA was just a man who happened to be in the right place at the right time: and that is all that Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, etc. will be. And to that end, Jon needs some agency to convince people not simply to follow him, but even just to leave his head on his shoulders.

      And, of course, this might set up why the Umbers might initially side with the Boltons. It would not be siding with the Boltons so much as it would be uniting against the Wildlings and the Traitor Snow. If so, then how is Jon going to change their minds? (Rickon and Sansa could be key here, too.)

      Yes, the Nights Watch could also say that Jon was helping the Wildlings to invade to invade the North. The small thing with that is that Stannis was also planning the very same thing. Stannis has already let some Wildings pass, and they might know about that. So I am not sure about that situation, but perhaps they will still use it. Or perhaps they will never even have the time to send a message to anyone. The Wildlings might just attack them before they can send out any messages, there are only 50 or so Nights Watch members.
      I was thinking more about them using the situation that Stannis has already let some Wildings pass the Wall, and these ungrateful Wildlings/ Savages, killed the Lord Commander for his courtesy. But who knows they can spin the situation in many directions.

      Yes, I agree completely about Dany’s and Jon’s parallel arcs. I think they did a great job last season to show some parallel dilemmas at the same time, and they will very likely do the same thing again this season. We can properly expect a lot of Dany, Jon and Tyrion airtime this season, as they might also give some parallels to Tyrion as well.

      It is easier to determine what will happen with Dany since she has a dragon. I dont know I have always had the feeling that everyone of the main characters, especially Dany, Tyrion and Jon will all play a specific role in the endgame. Dany is a conqueror and people believe in her when they see those dragons, fire and blood. Tyrion understand the politics and Westeros, he might be the one who could specifically help to unite the Lords within Westeros.
      Jon on the other hand has always seemed to me like the negotiator/ peacemaker. He has real empathy with different sides, and that is what might be needed at the end.

      When it comes to the show they haven’t really explored that side of Jon much, they have concentrated much more on making Jon more of an action hero. Which is understandable in many ways when it comes to TV. But perhaps this might be an opportunity where we might see more of Jon the negotiator. And perhaps that is how he will persuade some of the Northern houses to join the cause.

      Lol, I really, really hope we will never ever see Jon with a reverb voice, glowing eyes and steaming boots. Heck, I am still holding out a slight hope that Jon will be healed in the books, and that he will not need any resurrection. (Properly a fools errant).
      But a lot of people really enjoy the mystery part of ASOIAF, and they enjoy placing all of the clues together to try and figure out who Azor Ahai might be. It will be interesting to know simply because all of the fan theories and speculation, but for myself I would find it more interesting if it is was never spelled out directly. That being said this is a fantasy novel, and they do often contain some type of a savior figure, so it wouldn’t surprise me if GRRM, still play out some type of version of that.

      Sansa might also have some problems with some of the Northern Lords. She was first betrothed to Joffery, and then she married a Lannister. After escaping from Kings Landing with Joffery’s death, she ends up in the North and gets married to Ramsay Bolton while her husband is still at large, then she escapes again and land up with her half brother/ or with the Umbers/ or whoever likely Littlefinger. Obviously Sansa was just a pawn in other people’s games all along, but it might look a bit suspicious from the outside.
      Anyways, I might be wrong but I think Sansa would be much more successful in the Vale or in the Riverlands, generally just with Southern Lords. She has been learning and observing Southern politics.
      I dont know, I just dont see Sansa being that successful with Northern Politics, the only Northerner who successfully played Southern Politics was properly Roose Bolton.
      The Northerners are just a bit different, they do actually take more after the Wildlings when it comes to these matters.
      If they can successfully manage to capture Winterfell, and they decide to go further South then I could see Sansa playing her hand.

      The key to the Umbers specifically seems to be Rickon. This mostly depends on if they have been harboring Rickon. If Rickon has been with the Umbers during all of this time, then it means that they are protecting him because they plan on making him the Lord of Winterfell in the future.
      Under these condition it would be very reasonable if they are weary of Jon or Sansa. With all of the betrayal going on they might not trust their intentions. And they are also the family who has encountered the most problems with the Wildlings, so that would make them extra suspicious of Jon.
      So Jon would either have to negotiate with them and come to some sort of an agreement, or he will have to prove himself on the battlefield.
      Ironically like the Wildlings that might also count for something with them. So perhaps warrior Jon would still be necessary in the end.

      My feeling has always been that Jon is much more of an negotiator, or an arbitrator, while his fighting and battlefield prowess are a little bit more downplayed within the books. Perhaps they could focus more on that side of his personality. But they might go in a different direction then the books.
      But he is also the lead by example type as we saw at Hardhome, so that might actually sway Umbers. I could see a situation where the Umbers first evaluate Jon or Sansa before being swayed by him.
      Or Rickon is not really at the Umbers, and they just plainly side with the Boltons, that is another possibility.

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    112. Boudica: No Robbs will was never featured, and even in the books it might just be one big red herring.

      GRRM himself has not made it a red herring: it is mentioned in one scene, and never mentioned again. A proper red-herring is basically a Chekhovian Gun that is fired in some way we didn’t expect: it looks like it’s going to be relevant to the “main” mystery, but it turns out to have a (relatively) innocent side explanation.

      The will is more probably is a “Mt. Molehill”: that is, a molehill that we fans have built into a mountain through years of discussion. However, if GRRM never does anything with it in the book, then we can no more fault him for that than we could fault him for numerous other small background details that are just background details. (Much more important things were discussed in that scene: in particular, it was yet another rehanging of the “Who is Jon’s mother?” gun.)

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    113. Boudica: The small thing with that is that Stannis was also planning the very same thing. Stannis has already let some Wildings pass, and they might know about that

      If they did, then so what? That does not make it OK! Or at least that is what the Northerners would think/feel.

      Boudica: When it comes to the show they haven’t really explored that side of Jon much, they have concentrated much more on making Jon more of an action hero.

      Last year actually did quite a lot of that for Jon. Action wound up being involved: but the whole Hardhome rescue required a lot of pleaing-of-case by Jon to both sides. And, like Daeny, he really takes the high ground: one thing tha certainly will be important in the end is both of their desires to help the commoners, and their desires to kill as few of the “bad guys” as possible along the way. (People get upset about Daeny toasting one Noble: but her advisors say: “kill them all.”)

      Boudica: My feeling has always been that Jon is much more of an negotiator, or an arbitrator, while his fighting and battlefield prowess are a little bit more downplayed within the books.

      The books do not really give us much of that. There are a couple of negitations scenes: but GRRM (not being George Lucas, thank the old and new) gives us the beginnings and ends. And as for the “action,” action in books never has as much action as it does on TV/film. We just do not imagine the business of a true action scene. Oh, we might hold one or two people in our heads, but you cannot properly envisage a Hardhome or a Seige of Castle Black: and no writer can paint the scenes as vividly as film can because the very act of describing so much stuff would set the deeds apart by pages and moments of reading. The saying for TV and film is “show, don’t tell”: but for books, it’s “tell because you cannot show.” And for some things, showing is much, much more effective than telling.

      Boudica:

      And as a proper Stark, the fact that Jon is his half brother does not mean that Rickon will show him any leniency for breaking his vows and betraying Westeros to the Wildlings. If that is how it is presented, then Jon is going to have to convince people that he is a special deserter, just as Daeny has to convince the Dothraki that she’s a special widow.

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    114. The guy who posted the photo of the battle on reddit back then said that

      Rickon would die during the battle, Jon would appear to loose against the Boltons and then Sansa & LF would arrive with the Vale army in the end to save the day…

      If that’s true, I can see Sansa make some kind of speech a la Queen Elizabeth at Tilbury and then be proclamed Queen in the North, thus the interview where Liam said she would have an amazing arc this season.
      If the Vale army arrive in the end, of course they wouldn’t have been there to film for two months like the other armies… and it’s not like we had a lot of pics of that set anyway.
      Sophie was actually spotted in Belfast on September 13 & 14, while Snowbowl was being filmed. One or two days of filming is enough to make an appearance at the end of the battle. It’s the fighting itself which take time to film and she won’t be part of it.

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    115. Newbietothegame,

      Well, I don’t know, perhaps the Umbers bring him for legitimacy… I also heard some rumors that Ramsay would bring him as some kind of hostage, I didn’t believe that rumor back then but now, why not.
      I seem to recall that Art Parkinson was seen in Belfast during the filming of the battle, but I’m not sure.

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    116. Danny:
      Name *,

      I really doubt any of the Stark kids would go against each other.Rickon in the show is old enough to remember Jon very well and what he will remember is that he loved Jon and that Jon loved him.Rickon is, if they maintained any of his personality from the books, feisty and headstrong, he will eventually do as he thinks is right.There’s also Bran, don’t forget Bran.Bran can communicate with any of them, he wouldn’t let his siblings go at each other.

      Part of me want to see that… A dance of wolves 😛 Rickon the savage pawn a la Joffrey 2.0 or Dany 2.0, Bran the tree, Sansa being pissed because Rickon stole her rights and Arya being a psycho without redemption…

      They have a lot of issues to resolve.

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    117. Lulus Mum: Are you me? Watching a realistic portrayal of someone being flayed sounds completely revolting, but I could manage if it was Ramsay. He can’t die slowly or painfully enough for me, but things aren’t fair and he’ll probably have an amazing life and outlive everyone

      Oh and agree, it sounds like the sort of thing that special effects people would love to have a go at as a challenge but couldn’t really be shown in any detail, which is probably a good thing!

      Curse that show; just kidding…there are a few people I would not mind seeing killed on the show. But none of them are as despicable and worthy of death as Ramsey;

      not even Stannis IMO; and I hated what he did to his child

      By the gods, Ramsey has to die, preferable in season 6. I hope one of his victims will get revenge. Long, drawn out revenge (insert evil laughter here). But I could settle for Wun-Wun stepping on the bastard.

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    118. Newbietothegame: Why would Rickon participate in the battle? Is he not awful young for that?

      Not on the show. The actor is 14, and they’ve basically had time progress about a year per season for everyone save Baby Sam.

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    119. I cleary remember a post what was suggest that the Vale’s army is at the North. And there was picture too.
      And only that makes sense. Petyr wants the North, with Sansa. He voted for Stannis, but Stannis failed. But if Littlefinger still wants the North, he will need Sansa. So he will come with an army and with Royce to helps Jon.(and helps Sansa+Rickon too maybe)

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    120. Newbietothegame,

      As much as I would like for Theon or Sansa (or both) to personally end Ramsay in a poetic and gruesome manner, I doubt either will get the opportunity. I do hope however that he somehow loses his, ahem… manhood at some point during

      Snowbowl. Perhaps Ghost can help there.

      For great justice!

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    121. Phil Necro,

      Grenouille,

      The more I think about it, did we not discuss this ‘news’ in a previous post; a while ago?

      Until Sue posts pics of the Vale army in the North, I don’t buy it. I am not saying it won’t happen, but I take the posts from reddit and WiC with a grain of salt.

      Death to the Boltons!!

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    122. Phil Necro: Petyr wants the North, with Sansa. He voted for Stannis, but Stannis failed.

      well, what he really tried to do was play off Stannis and the Boltons against each other. And he sort of did: but Stannis did not inflect near the damage on the Boltons that LF would have hoped.

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    123. Wimsey: Not on the show.The actor is 14, and they’ve basically had time progress about a year per season for everyone save Baby Sam.

      I sure hope they move the baby up in age. If I see Gilly carry him around for another year…well….that would be just bad story telling. If D&D have something against working with toddlers, just let the poor kid get ill and demise.

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    124. Newbietothegame: If D&D have something against working with toddlers, just let the poor kid get ill and demise

      Nobody works with toddlers! That is why TV babies go from infants to 5 year olds (played by small 8 year olds) in single seasons.

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    125. Off-Topic Otto: how about actually showing somebody being flayed alive?

      They’ve already done that with Theon’s pinky. The special effects guys even referred to it as a gag in a production video.

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    126. Newbietothegame: If D&D have something against working with toddlers, just let the poor kid get ill and demise.

      It’s not like we see the baby often. Likewise, they don’t have to show us the toddler often. Just swap the baby-shaped object in a towel to a cradle with a toddler-shaped object. I hope they do it.

      Anyway, to be fair, little Sam was not so little last time we saw him. Just take a look. That’s a big freaking “baby”. Not a two year old or so, as he should be, but still. He looks like an enormous potato.

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    127. Wimsey: Nobody works with toddlers!That is why TV babies go from infants to 5 year olds (played by small 8 year olds) in single seasons.

      Ahh, still better than eternal baby Sam. I hope little Sam went through a growth spurt.

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    128. Sister Kisser:
      Angela,

      Regarding the Riverlands, I like your thoughts here.

      While I do not think the gag comments point directly to

      I just thought it was RL related because they said it was a gag cut from Season 4.

      LSH and the wolf pack would be in season 4. I could be incorrect. Ice spiders would be good too.

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    129. Angela,

      You are right-

      it could have been season 4, or 5… but given Brienne and Jaime’s story arcs (it appears the invented stuff for both of them last season was just kicking the can until they were ready to head back to RL), and as Whimsey will tell you- it didn’t make sense for them to introduce her until now, when her character matters (if they do, and if she does).
      My point was really that I don’t think the gag comment necessarily points directly in her direction, and I agree with somebody above who suggested that an FX crew member would probably not speak publicly about her character in this way. I am hoping for SPIDERS AS BIG AS HOUNDS, or something with WOLVES (dragging a corpse from a river??). As Luka has pointed out- it could be something more trivial- yet another unique death perhaps? Who knows. Will be exciting to watch this season and guess which gag was referenced.

      Also- her corpse would be really fucking decayed by this point. Right? How will they manage this?

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    130. Wimsey,

      I know you don’t consider Brienne or Jaime to be top tier characters- but I do. I think they are at least at Bran level (his supernatural powers notwithstanding. I am thinking about their importance and involvement in the story thus far, and their likely involvement with other leading characters as we get closer to the endgame).

      You mentioned not imagining LSH’s relevance to any major characters. The books lead us to believe that LSH is indeed critically involved in their outcomes. I am skeptical that DnD will completely invent the fates of Brienne and Jaime, despite inventing some “stuff” for them to do along the way.
      Also- I am increasingly inclined to believe that LSH and Jon will cross paths. This is more of a hunch than anything, based on their pre-death relationship being unique and complicated, and having no resolution. And though I won’t go so far as to assert that we will, I do hope we get her in the show.

      Just some thoughts as I catch up on comments

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    131. Sister Kisser,

      Brienne certainly is not on par with Bran: she was a secondary character until Crows. Jaime did not become a protagonist until Storm. Bran on the other hand has been a protagonist since Thrones. And that really is important: GRRM cannot use Brienne’s or even Jaime’s character evolution anywhere near as effectively as he can Bran’s at the climax of the overarching tale. And, of course

      Cersei has foreshadowed Jaime’s death: they will die together, and of course, her “little” brother is going to kill her. So, Jaime won’t be there at the end.

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    132. Wimsey,

      By protagonist, do you mean in this instance a “point of view” character? I did not say Jaime, nor Brienne, were protagonists- rather, that I believe they are top tier characters (informal term) in this story. No, they are not as central as Tyrion, Dany, or Jon- but Jaime’s actions have informed and indeed shaped the outcomes of several important characters and events, including one of the above “big 3”. Bran’s entire story arc, after all, was initiated by Jaime’s actions- featured early in Thrones and of course as the final scene of the first episode of the show. It’s hard for me to see how Bran could be considered “more central” to the story, thus far, than Jaime. I doubt any casual viewers would consider this so. I do not deny that this view could change by the endgame.
      As for Brienne, well her main role so far has been to facilitate Jaime’s “redemption”. I will concede here. Nevertheless, I think she may have something more in store in act3. She wields valaryian steel, and somehow manages to find her way into the heart of a major players story at every turn.

      I don’t remember all the details of the Valonqar prophesy- but I seem to recall a conventional belief is that Jaime is to strangle Cersei? Does he then kill himself? Or are you suggesting that Tyrion kills them both? I remember Tyrion having dream about killing Jaime? under the Rock…. I could look this all up, but alas, I’m lazy and don’t care much for the wiki

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    133. Wimsey: If they did, then so what? That does not make it OK! Or at least that is what the Northerners would think/feel.

      The Northerners simply dont like the Wildlings, much like Jon’s Nights Watch brothers. I think they can go in many different directions with this. As I said I am not even sure they will have the time to send out any messages.
      In the books there is some hints here and there that the Wildlings and the Mountain Clans might have some contact or understanding with each other. But obviously this matters nothing for the show.

      Wimsey: Last year actually did quite a lot of that for Jon. Action wound up being involved: but the whole Hardhome rescue required a lot of pleaing-of-case by Jon to both sides. And, like Daeny, he really takes the high ground: one thing tha certainly will be important in the end is both of their desires to help the commoners, and their desires to kill as few of the “bad guys” as possible along the way. (People get upset about Daeny toasting one Noble: but her advisors say: “kill them all.”)

      Yes Jon was placed in a position last year where he had to do a lot more negotiating and compromising. They might extend that theme further in season 6. There has always been strong parelles between Jon helping the Wildlings and Dany’s fight against slavery. The difference between them in this regard is their overall motivation. Dany is fighting for the Targaryen name and to get herself back into Westeros. Jon’s fight has always been against the White Walkers. By trying to unite the North, Jon’s motivations will also start to coincide more with his personal desires, and that at least should be interesting.

      The issue about Dany burning the Mereneese noble is an interesting one. Do I care that she did it? No. The Mereneese and that noble are not really fleshed out characters, so we simply dont care. But what if she took a Lord from Westeros for her dragons to burn and eat? Whatever her advisers say, such an act in Westeros would not be that well received. But it is certainly very Targaryen. Dany has a very strong sense of justice, thus far she certainly committed more morally questionable acts then Jon. But as the series continues I expect to see characters commit a lot more morally questionable acts.

      Wimsey: The books do not really give us much of that. There are a couple of negitations scenes: but GRRM (not being George Lucas, thank the old and new) gives us the beginnings and ends. And as for the “action,” action in books never has as much action as it does on TV/film. We just do not imagine the business of a true action scene. Oh, we might hold one or two people in our heads, but you cannot properly envisage a Hardhome or a Seige of Castle Black: and no writer can paint the scenes as vividly as film can because the very act of describing so much stuff would set the deeds apart by pages and moments of reading. The saying for TV and film is “show, don’t tell”: but for books, it’s “tell because you cannot show.” And for some things, showing is much, much more effective than telling.

      Yeah, dont get me wrong I love the action sequences. It is understandable why they would go for action on the TV, people also generally enjoy the action the most. Showing Hardhome rather then just hearing about it really brought the message about the White Walkers home in a way that would have been impossible otherwise. They also have Kit Harington who is seeming good at filming sword fighting so it makes much more sense to use him as much as possible for the action sequences, instead of the Sandsnake type of characters. Even in the situation with the Umbers they could still use Jon’s fighting and battlefield prowess. That is a matter that might count for something with the Umbers.

      Writing is also mostly depended on the “show dont tell”, technique, it is just applied a bit differently. And there some authors such as Bernard Cornwell who can really paint and show and a battlefield through his words.

      Wimsey: And as a proper Stark, the fact that Jon is his half brother does not mean that Rickon will show him any leniency for breaking his vows and betraying Westeros to the Wildlings. If that is how it is presented, then Jon is going to have to convince people that he is a special deserter, just as Daeny has to convince the Dothraki that she’s a special widow.

      I am not sure how much in charge Rickon will be of the situation, but yes it will be interesting to see what exactly Jon does to convince some of those Northerners. Drogon will obviously help Dany, or her closer bond with Drogon.
      These are also special conditions in the North, they do have White Walkers approaching. As bad as it might be for Jon to be a deserter at the head of a Wildling army, lets not forget who he is really up against. He is up against the likes of Roose Bolton who betrayed and helped to killed off a lot of Northern Lords, and Ramsay Bolton who is riding around the countryside flaying Lords in front of their heirs.

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    134. Sister Kisser: By protagonist, do you mean in this instance a “point of view” character?

      No, I mean the central characters that create the story by how they evolve and how they come to grips with common identity crises. Being a PoV character is a necessary condition of a protagonist, but it’s not a sufficient one: sometimes authors (including GRRM) use other characters to provide a 3rd party perspective on the main characters.

      The one oddity about a series like this is that the series itself has protagonists (Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya, Bran and perhaps Sansa), but each individual story has those 5 or 6 (Sansa really was not in the Crows/Dragons story) plus others (Ned, Catelyn, Jaime, Cersei, etc.)

      The big issue is that the Song of Ice and Fire “superstory” should be driven by the Big 5 or 6. The ultimate conclusions should reflect the common ways in which those 5 or 6 characters have evolved from the people they were in Thrones to the people they are in Dream.

      Now, other characters will contribute to the plot: like, say, Jaime tossing Bran out of a window, lots of other people will do things that force the Big 5/6 to evolve. But it is the deed that is important, not the character him/her/itself that is important.

      As for the relevant foreshadowing, that comes when

      Cersei makes that statement that Jaime could not be dead because she and Jaime will depart the world together as they entered it together. That’s not prophecy – nobody hearing it would think it anything other than a poetic notion – but if Jaime does die while killing Cersei, then Cersei will have inadvertently told us in advance what was going to happen. That’s classic foreshadowing.

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    135. Philemon the Jamaicon: If time hasn’t progressed in the story for baby sam, then it hasn’t progressed for anyone else either.

      Except, of course, that they mention how much time passes quite frequently. You also are meant to take time from the long distances travelled (although, of course, fans see “jet packs” instead of going “hmm, several days or even weeks elapsed”: this seems peculiar to fans!)

      Basically, this is a continuity error very likely caused by the fact that it is almost impossible to have toddlers and very young kids on TV and movies. That is why infants magically turn into 5 year olds (played by older kids than that) over single summers between seasons.

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    136. Wimsey,

      Come on, Wimsey! Don’t put “jet packs” criticism on fans not being reasonable. Benioff and Weiss are well aware of how odd it looks when some characters travel the length of Westeros of Essos in months (which only takes an ep) while baby Sam is not aging more than a few days. Producers succeeded in joking about these issues, adopting the “jet pack” for Jamie traveling for example. I would just accept it with good grace and take it in stride as they did, instead of passing judgement on a whole fandom for not trying to find all kinds of twisted reasonable explanation for something that’s obviously a bit of an oddity.

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    137. Luka Nieto: Just take a look. That’s a big freaking “baby”. Not a two year old or so, as he should be, but still. He looks like an enormous potato.

      Sam looks as old as he should: 12 months, give or take.

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    138. BaelorBalerionBaelish:
      “Benioff and Weiss, when they write the outline each year, for last two years, we got to this one point and we read this one gag and thought ‘Oh my God, how the hell are we going to do that? But this is going to be incredible!’ And then it got pulled and we didn’t do it in Season 4. And then, lo and behold, in Season 5 there it was again. And it’s pulled again! But now, in Season 6, it looks like we’re going to do it. Fingers crossed they won’t chicken out,”

      Sorry but if we’re starting

      I think and I hope they include her. More clues than any past season!

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    139. TormundsWoman: Don’t put “jet packs” criticism on fans not being reasonable.

      Why not? Tolkien fans were unreasonable in the same way. The Fellowship was marching around. Then they were “instantly” at somewhere different. So, the time was not communicated! But it was: when you see a completely different mountain range behind a group of people, then you know that a bit of time has elapsed.

      Insofar as I can tell, Joe and Jane Viewer have no problem accepting distance as time. The only two places I have observed people assuming “apparition” is in Tolkien fandom and SoI&F fandom!

      Mr Fixit: Sam looks as old as he should: 12 months, give or take.

      At this point, shouldn’t he be closer to 2?

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    140. Wimsey,

      Who knows what your Joe and Jane Viewer are thinking?! LOL However my Joe and Jane Viewer are not blind. My Joe and Jane Viewer saw how much Tommen and Myrcella have grown between season 3 and season 5 and asked themselves why Sam has not evolved much especially at an age where the development should be exponentially more visible. I am assuming you have kids or at least been around some so I don’t have to explain the developmental milestones of a baby from birth to 1 yr & 6 months old (I took that as random age but it is probably close to where baby Sam should be)

      Joe and Jane Viewer maybe do not WANT to be spoon fed about how time has elapsed exactly the same for KL and Dorne and has slowed down some for the North however, they are gracious enough to not make a HUGE big deal about it.

      And you can put it on whoever you want but pointing a mistake or incongruence out is not the fault of the person who notices. It’s like saying: let me get this financials out to the shareholders and if nobody notices a 2MM dollar mistake on the P&L, then it’s not a mistake. If someone points it out, I’ll just say it’s on them that they noticed!

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    141. Sister Kisser:
      Angela,

      You are right-

      I don’t know about how they would deal with the corpse stuff. Unless, It would be difficult to have her corpse resurrected 3 years after the RW. Unless we have the timeline completely wrong. That would be the only way. They could say that 1 season= 1 year is not correct. I don’t have any clue how they could pull that off if they introduced LSH in Season 6. We have to wait for the season. The gag could be anything. Ice Spiders would be cool too.

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    142. Here is the reason why Rickon’s death would not be a big deal (I am in the camp thinking he is definitely a goner in S6)

      The last words Ned said to Jon in S1 was “You may not have my name, but you have my blood.”

      Now think about these words with respect to the whole R+L=J theory

      Everyone is concerned that without Rickon, the Stark family name/line will end. Really? So what if the Stark name can no longer be passed on? We have seen that Blood is what matters, not the name or house.

      Westeros is in a feudal society that appears to not be working, in the same respect to how feudalism did not work in European history. Look at all of the destruction and chaos it causes for innocent people when Houses decide to go to war with one another.

      Even the words of Rhilor continually states the power of blood, king’s blood. Look at how Mel looks at Jon Snow, a boy with no name and a bastard child of Winterfell. It’s his blood that matters. The Stark blood will live on with Jon, Sansa and Arya but the name may die with Rickon but so what I say. Blood takes presedence over names, titles, houses, etc. Magic is taking over Westeros and neither the Red God nor the Others will really care about these trivial things. They will, however, take notice of family bloodlines and their is something about Stark blood and possibly Targaryan blood that makes them special or powerful.

      Mark my words. Rickon’s eventual death will appear to be gut-wrenching to team Stark and will mainly be shown for the dramatic effect, but in the big picture of things it won’t matter too much.

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