Emilia Clarke says she isn’t sure “anyone’s ready” for season 8

emilia

On the Red Carpet at the Golden Globes last night, Emilia Clarke chatted with Access Hollywood about the final season of Game of Thrones and, though she didn’t give away any plot details, she hinted at the immense emotional impact the finale is going to have.

During her brief interview after the Golden Globe awards ceremony, Clarke talked briefly about how much easier dying her hair Targaryen blonde has made her morning routine and raved about Oprah Winfrey’s powerful acceptance speech.

When asked about the recently confirmed two year wait fans will have to suffer through before getting to enjoy season 8, Clarke assured us: “It’s gonna be worth it.” She was, of course, evasive about plot details.

“I’m not saying anything! For heaven’s sake!” she laughed when asked if she’s been filming any Winterfell scenes. However, she did disclose her own reaction after learning the concluding events of of the show.

“I read the scripts [for] this season and I, in some kind of a daze, walked out of my house,” she said. “The only thing I took was my keys and about three hour later I arrived back home and I still hadn’t taken it all in.”

When asked if she’s ready for the end to come she answered: “I don’t know. I don’t know if anyone’s ready. I don’t know if TV’s ready”

176 responses

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    1. Well, at least we didn’t get the usual “bittersweet” stuff. Nice tease, Emilia. You’re good at it!

      oh…and hoderp!

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    2. The silver dragon,

      Shes still probably wearing extensions I assume?? I think she did it just because its the last season of thrones, and she actually wanted to have silver hair to commemorate it.

      Emilia just makes me smile 🙂

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    3. I believe that if they do a Peter Pan live-action movie again, Emilia must be Tinkerbell.

      She just radiates that character in every way.

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    4. You’d think she’d have bothered to get her roots done for the Golden Globes. Black tramlines are not a good look.

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    5. Sansa’s Knight:
      I’m calling it … she’s found out she does not survive … and the hair is her tribute to Daenerys

      Or maybe Daenerys cuts off her braids, as Dothraki do when they suffer a defeat? I thought she handled the loss of Viserion pretty calmly, but when she discovers that her dead dragon will now be used against her, that will not be so easy to shrug off – I could see her cutting off her braids to mark that.

      I doubt Emilia Clarke would go through many months of platinum blonde upkeep if she didn’t have to. She’s a very beautiful woman, but looks much better with her own hair color, IMO.

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    6. She’s so incredibly charming and beautiful. Her eyebrows always give a show.

      This particular interview made me a little bummed however since her reaction to the ending is extremely cryptic. She’s very attached to Dany so I’m sure any news of her death impacted her heavily. But she may also just be reeling from the end of the entire series. I won’t think too much into it, well at least anymore than I am already lol.

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    7. Violator:
      I believe that if they do a Peter Pan live-action movie again, Emilia must be Tinkerbell.

      She just radiates that character in every way.

      How did Jason Mamoa refer to her? Giggle-bubbles? She’s giggle-bubbles.

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    8. I love interviews like these, so much fun to read the discussions ^^
      we have a full year to go wild with speculations on what’s going to happen for the last year.

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    9. Not that I’m a Jonsa shipper, but I wouldn’t be surprized if Dany dies (I am not against her surviving either):

      If Dany does not start to wear armor, she can get hit by an arrow (or together with Drogon against NK). Luckily, she appointed Jon as her successor. Jon, who didn’t want to officially announce he’s called Aegon and had willingly given up his “claim to the Throne” to Dany, has to declare himself to be Aegon Targaryen in order to convince the south to agree with that succession (another option for uniting the realm would have been a Westeros battle against the Army of the Dead, but it looks like they will be stopped by North/Vale/Unsullied/Dothraki either in WF or at the Red Fork or KL). However, this causes Aegon to lose support of the North/Vale, because a Targaryen cannot be trusted, until they decide upon a political marriage with Sansa (although this fits better with the Asoiaf background than with the more modern GoT). Another advantage, this also fits with Sansa’s story (she wanted to become queen in the beginning) and frees up Winterfell for Arya (who wanted a holdfast).

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    10. fdr,

      ””… frees up Winterfell for Arya (who wanted a holdfast).”

      ________
      “I don’t want to be a lady. I’m not a lady. I don’t want to be a lady.”

      “You’re the Lady of Winterfell.”

      “Shut up.”

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    11. Sansa’s Knight:
      I’m calling it … she’s found out she does not survive … and the hair is her tribute to Daenerys

      The same they had said about Sophie Turner last season ..when she died her hair blonde…But Sansa survives ..Might the same about Danny..That Danny dies [with one way[childbirth] or another[nissa nissa,killed by NK and etc]as the 99% of the fans expect ..its just too predictable and if be the end like this ..will be 100% fan-service..Will be a big surprise if she survives at the end and someone else ..who nobody expects to dies ..Jon or Sansa or Tyrion..dies in her place.That will be bittersweet too.

      Sansa’s Knight:
      I’m calling it … she’s found out she does not survive … and the hair is her tribute to Daenerys

      The same they had said for Sophie Turner ..last season when she died her hair blonde too..but Sansa didnt dies..Actually i expect Danny to survive[while the other fans expecting her to die with one way or another] and someone else ..who nobody expects to die..dies in her place..Jon or Sansa or Tyrion.That will be bittersweet too.

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    12. Edward:
      She’s so incredibly charming and beautiful. Her eyebrows always give a show.

      This particular interview made me a little bummed however since her reaction to the ending is extremely cryptic. She’s very attached to Dany so I’m sure any news of her death impacted her heavily. But she may also just be reeling from the end of the entire series. I won’t think too much into it, well at least anymore than I am already lol.

      God i hope not..Someone else should to die in her place Jon or Sansa..those who nobody expects to die.

        Quote  Reply

    13. Artemisia,

      Everyone is expected to die. Sansa, Arya, Jon, Dany,Jaime, Cersei… there are theories about them dying.

      Only major characters whose death could really shock fans are Tyron and Sam.

        Quote  Reply

    14. mau:
      Artemisia,

      Everyone is expected to die. Sansa, Arya, Jon, Dany,Jaime, Cersei… there are theories about them dying.

      Only major characters whose death could really shock fans are Tyron and Sam.

      Yes i can see her giving birth to a child..to Jons child…Also her death will be Yes fan-service because every fan wants her to die with one way or another..And i agree with you for that all characters are in danger..only speculations we can do.

        Quote  Reply

    15. fdr:
      Not that I’m a Jonsa shipper, but I wouldn’t be surprized if Dany dies (I am not against her surviving either):

      If Dany does not start to wear armor, she can get hit by an arrow (or together with Drogon against NK). Luckily, she appointed Jon as her successor. Jon, who didn’t want to officially announce he’s called Aegon and had willingly given up his “claim to the Throne” to Dany, has to declare himself to be Aegon Targaryen in order to convince the south to agree with that succession (another option for uniting the realm would have been a Westeros battle against the Army of the Dead, but it looks like they will be stopped by North/Vale/Unsullied/Dothraki either in WF or at the Red Fork or KL). However, this causes Aegon to lose support of the North/Vale, because a Targaryen cannot be trusted, until they decide upon a political marriage with Sansa (although this fits better with the Asoiaf background than with the more modern GoT). Another advantage, this also fits with Sansa’s story (she wanted to become queen in the beginning) and frees up Winterfell for Arya (who wanted a holdfast).

      I dont think this will happen. all the fans expect Danny to die with one way or another..and Jon to be king..If this happen will be fan-service completely..I will be surprise if Danny lives somehow and Jon or Sansa dies in her place ..characters who nobody expects to die ..Jon is born to die in the battlefield with the NK /defeating him..and to be the next NK[he will make a pax between the living and the dead and will be their new leader..leading them back to the Lands of Always Winter] and Sansa [whos death is foreshadowed heavily in the books and sometimes in the show]will die probably eaten alive by some WW direwolves [like she did with Ramsay]or killed by Arya slicing her throat with Catspaw [as she did with Littlefinger].Sansas dreams to be queen never will happened..Sweet dreams in GOT never happened or they become nightmares.

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    16. For anyone interested, Game of Thrones has made it through to the final stage of voting for the National Television Awards in the UK! It is one of the final five shows nominated for Best Drama, and will be up against Call the Midwife, Casualty, Doctor Foster and Liar.

      It is voted for by viewers, and anyone in the UK can vote through the NTA website at:

      https://www.nationaltvawards.com/vote

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    17. Is it too much to ask for Dany to die like Gollum? Die saving the world but not as a hero? Because everything that happened to her so far has been fan-service. She’s been on top since season 2, even though she’s done fucked up shit. Other characters have died for the lesser mistakes. She proved time and time again that she is not responsible ruler and she is not worthy of the great power that she has.
      After burning so many guilty and innocents alive, the only way to balance her arc is for her character to go down in flames.

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    18. Alba Stark,

      Thanks Alba. Wouldn’t normally vote for anything like this but decided I had to do my bit for GOT. My guess is Dr Foster or Liar as the world and his wife seem to have seen them (except me). Can’t see GoT doing it simply because it’s not on mainstream Tele.

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    19. So much for the scripts were locked down, it seems Emilia had them in her house!

      Obviously going to be some big twists in the final six episodes and some major deaths.

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    20. House Monty:
      I am probably not ready.

      Seeing anyone other than Dany or Cersei on the Iron Throne would just suck.

      Really, I’d say there is no chance of Cersei being on the throne, Dany is a possibility but only if Jon dies (and I feel she is more likely to do that than him).

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    21. Carole H:

      Thanks Alba.Wouldn’t normally vote for anything like this but decided I had to do my bit for GOT. My guess is Dr Foster or Liar as the world and his wife seem to have seen them (except me). Can’t see GoT doing it simply because it’s not on mainstream Tele.

      Agree – to be honest, I was surprised it made the final five given that the main four channels are usually where these awards go. It is sadly rare for any Cable/Sky channel shows to make the shortlist, never mind win.

      In any case, my vote was also added to the tally!

        Quote  Reply

    22. mau,

      Is this turning into another Dany’s dying/Dany’s baby sub-thread?

      👿

      Is someone going to predict that Dany’s baby will fight Cersei’s baby in Season 8, Episode 5: “Battle of the Incest Bastards”?

        Quote  Reply

    23. mau:
      Artemisia,

      Everyone is expected to die. Sansa, Arya, Jon, Dany,Jaime, Cersei… there are theories about them dying.

      Only major characters whose death could really shock fans are Tyron and Sam.

      Sansa dying would be pretty shocking I think.

        Quote  Reply

    24. Jon Snowed: Really, I’d say there is no chance of Cersei being on the throne, Dany is a possibility but only if Jon dies (and I feel she is more likely to do that than him).

      I think an ending where both of them die is lame fairy tale bullshit.

      The two remaining contenders for the throne who are actually grew characters lose? Come on. That does not happen in real life.

      Although I do agree Cersei has zero chance

        Quote  Reply

    25. Artemisia: Yes i can see her giving birth to a child..to Jons child…Also her death will be Yes fan-service because every fan wants her to die with one way or another.

      Are you saying here that every fan wants Daenerys to die?? If so that is completely false. Believing that it’s probable or expecting her to die in the end isn’t the same as wanting her to. I’d hate it.

      I personally believe that the story will end with Jon & Daenerys both dying or both living, not just one surviving. Nothing has changed my belief that ASoIaF is ‘the story of J & D,” and now we’ve had a character straight out call them “Ice” and “Fire” (Melisandre). The story being about how they came together to unite and save Westeros, dying in the process or living on to lead the people in ‘peace and prosperity.’ I’d obviously prefer the latter as I will be pissed for a long time if they die, but I’m prepared for that possibility.

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    26. I kinda hope this show ends w/o us finding out who takes the iron throne.

      It would just feel so weird after years of speculation, to actually have an answer in stone lol

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    27. Here we go again with the “fan service” b.s.

      This term is more overused than “fake news”.

      It’s fan service if Dany dies!
      No wait, it’s fan service if Dany lives.
      Hold on, it’s actually fan service if Jon lives.
      Totally wrong bro, it’s fan service if Jon dies.

      I bet if someone scoured the WOTW comment sections for the last year we’d see literally every possible ending be considered fan service by one commentor or another. Give it a rest already.

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    28. dany is fire, night king is ice:
      Is it too much to ask for Dany to die like Gollum? Die saving the world but not as a hero? Because everything that happened to her so far has been fan-service. She’s been on top since season 2, even though she’s done fucked up shit. Other characters have died for the lesser mistakes. She proved time and time again that she is not responsible ruler and she is not worthy of the great power that she has.
      After burning so many guilty and innocents alive, the only way to balance her arc is for her character to go down in flames.

      AND NOW YOU PROVE THAT YOU ARE ANOTHER ONE DANNY HATER PRICK..SANSA FUCKINSHIT FAN…Danny is better than Sansa,Jon,Stannis and Cercei..Sansa betrays her own family for Geoffreys love ..lead them to their death in the beheading of her father and to the Red Wedding and give her pussy without second question to Ramsay..causing her own rape and does absolutely nothing for to defend herself..just crying like a 10 years old spoiled brat ..Jon betray his vows and his NW brothers sleeping with a slut Wilding bitch .Stannis killed his own innocent brother for to take the Throne and also killed his innocent daughter because a zealot religious slut bitch told to him that is AA[and cheated his wife with her] and Cercei killed all those innocent nobles..along with the Tyrels and her own son..just because High Sparrow in S5 punished her for her own crimes[he did well]..Danny killed only those who have been deserve to die..The Slave Masters the rapists Khals and the bloodthirsty Lannisters army //The Masters had raped,tortured and killed innocent slave womens and childrens ..because of their stupid slave trade tradition and their misanthropic political system that had caused the death of thousands innocent peoples without reason ..The Khals had raped ,killed and enslave thousand innocent womens and childrens..because of their misogynistic savage way of life..And the Lannisters soldiers who had raped,pillaged,tortured and killed everyone in South Westeros ..The Greedy Lannisters they had killed entire noble families ..like the Raynes,the Casterlys,The Martells,The Tyrells,The Starks and the Targaryens for to take the Throne easily with their bloodthirsty soldiers and allies doing the dirty job..Danny has commit the most less [but fair]atrocities ..You should clean your mouth with chlorine before talking for her.

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    29. Jon Snowed: Really, I’d say there is no chance of Cersei being on the throne, Dany is a possibility but only if Jon dies (and I feel she is more likely to do that than him).

      Then to ask..why they had her crossing/conquering an entire Essos,be the Queen of this continent ,free slaves,taking 3 armies,try to conquer Westeros,loosing 3 important allies ,saves[falling in love] Jon Snow and his team from their potential death/suicide ..loosing Viserion also and having now her pregnant with Jon Snows child ..just for to die and Jon[who has do less important things than her and has suffer less than her] to be King? All this have been FOR NOTHING?That has 0 logic..and ,makes 0 sense …really.Jon fanboys/girls they suffer from lack of common logic.

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    30. Artemisia: Then to ask..why they had her crossing/conqueringan entire Essos,be the Queen of this continent ,free slaves,taking3 armies,try to conquer Westeros,loosing 3 important allies ,saves[falling in love] Jon Snow and his team from their potential death/suicide ..loosing Viserion also and having now her pregnant with Jon Snows child ..just only for to die as sacrificed lamb and Jon[who has do less important thingsthan her and has suffer less than her] to be King? All this have been FOR NOTHING according to you?That has 0 logic..and ,makes 0 sense …really.Jon fanboys/girls they suffer from lack of common logic.

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    31. *Sigh*

      Mods, please will you do something about this?

      This isn’t the first time. That really shouldn’t be acceptable.

        Quote  Reply

    32. Artemisia,

      I believe this website is known for the respect each of us has for the other. I find your reply to be very aggressive, and the language not quite in line with the style of this site.

        Quote  Reply

    33. Artemisia,

      Why resort to name calling? It makes you’re entire argument seem unhinged. I also don’t see what the need to drag those other characters was. The user you replied to simply shared his opinion (one I disagree with btw) but it definitely didn’t merit you attacking him/her in the aggressive manner that you did.

        Quote  Reply

    34. House Monty: I think an ending where both of them die is lame fairy tale bullshit.

      The two remaining contenders for the throne who are actually grew characters lose? Come on. That does not happen in real life.

      Although I do agree Cersei has zero chance

      it will be or both die or both live ..and be King and Queen [he needed her for to give birth into his legimate children and she needed him for to be his queen and to rule along with him on the IT]..there is no middle ground[one to live and the other to die]..Or win both or die both

        Quote  Reply

    35. Jaime of Tarth:
      Artemisia,

      I believe this website is known for the respect each of us has for the other. I find your reply to be very aggressive, and the language not quite in line with the style of this site.

      For to put some peoples in their rightful place ..you should to be little bit aggressive ..for to have them pay attention carefully in what you say especially..Im little bit aggressive [i say the truth and im honest in what i say ] but also i can be very kind most of the time [tha its true too]..We all have some bad things and some good things inside us….

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    36. Jay Targ:
      Artemisia,

      Why resort to name calling?It makes you’re entire argument seem unhinged. I also don’t see what the need to drag those other characters was.The user you replied to simply shared his opinion (one I disagree with btw) but it definitely didn’t merit you attacking him/her in the aggressive manner that you did.

      To be honest..Im one of those that nobody pays attention to his/her theories.Good.My theories are not so popular but true..and everyone calls me crazy[im little bit for to be honest] because i say things that most probably are true or they have the chances to be true..When everyone says that Danny dies[as nissa nissa or childbirth and blah blah blah]and Jon will be King..i say or support the opposite[the thing that nobody doesnt like or afraid to hear[Everyone hates the truth and loves the lie,..is in our nature] ..but unfortunately is true or has all the chances to be true..Im going on my own way in the theories and i have my small amount of supporters and im OK with it..If all there agree or disagree with me i respect their opinions..nothing more..nothing less..Simple things…very simple things

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    37. Mr Derp,
      I really want to make a poll about how many people EXPECT Dany/Jon/both to die versus how many people WANT them to. That way, the meaning of ‘fanservice’ will finally be decided. 😀

      I remember reading many a thread on Reddit throughout the years, though, with not just an expectation that Jon will kill Dany in a Nissa Nissa kind of deal, but with one very… how shall we say it, giddy?… about it, too. Just for that, I want Dany to be the one to survive. 😀 (Plus, of course, she has more to do than Jon after the NK is dead, she has that entire revolution she’s been talking about all those seasons to effect. It would be extreme bad form on DnD’s and especially GRRM’s part to take it from her and give it to Jon.)

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    38. Artemisia,

      ”AND NOW YOU PROVE THAT YOU ARE ANOTHER ONE DANNY HATER PRICK..SANSA FUCKINSHIT FAN…Danny is better than Sansa,Jon,Stannis and Cercei..Sansa betrays her own family for Geoffreys love ..lead them to their death in the beheading of her father and to the Red Wedding and give her pussy without second question to Ramsay..causing her own rape and does absolutely nothing for to defend herself..just crying like a 10 year old spoiled brat…”</em€

      ********************
      ”…Jon betray his vows and his NW brothers sleeping with a slut Wilding bitch .Stannis killed his own innocent brother for to take the Throne and also killed his innocent daughter because a zealot religious slut bitch told to him that is AA[and cheated his wife with her] and Cercei killed all those innocent nobles..along with the Tyrels and her own son..just because High Sparrow in S5 punished her for her ownly crime…

      ——————————
      Just a stylistic suggestion:
      Starting off a comment/rant by telling someone [in caps] that he or she is “another one [sic] Danny Hater Prick” and [again in caps] a Sansa F*ckinshit Fan; and stating in uncouth terms that Sansa ”gave her pussy without second question to Ramsay and causing her own rape and does absolutely nothing for her to defend herself just crying like a 10 year old spoiled brat” , which insult two sets of fans and condemns a raped character (as asking for it; causing it; not defending against it; and for crying about it), impel whoever’s reading what you wrote to discount it as the ramblings of an angry misogynist.
      Surely you can engage in meaningful criticism without the slurs and the invective, can’t you?

      “Jon betray his vows and his NW brothers sleeping with a slut Wildling bitch.”

      Uh, no. He did not betray his vows (only to “father no children”; nothing forbidding fornication), and at Qhorin Halfhand’s direction he infiltrated the Wildlings. He didn’t betray his NW brothers; his intel saved them.

      One other thing: Ygritte was not a “slut Wildling bitch.” She was ferociously in love with and loyal to Jon Snow.” 💋🔥🏹

        Quote  Reply

    39. Ten Bears:
      Artemisia,

      ”AND NOW YOU PROVE THAT YOU ARE ANOTHER ONE DANNY HATER PRICK..SANSA FUCKINSHIT FAN…Danny is better than Sansa,Jon,Stannis and Cercei..Sansa betrays her own family for Geoffreys love ..lead them to their death in the beheading of her father and to the Red Wedding and give her pussy without second question to Ramsay..causing her own rape and does absolutely nothing for to defend herself..just crying like a 10 year old spoiled brat…”</em€


      ********************
      ”…Jon betray his vows and his NW brothers sleeping with a slut Wilding bitch .Stannis killed his own innocent brother for to take the Throne and also killed his innocent daughter because a zealot religious slut bitch told to him that is AA[and cheated his wife with her] and Cercei killed all those innocent nobles..along with the Tyrels and her own son..just because High Sparrow in S5 punished her for her ownly crime…

      ——————————
      Just a stylistic suggestion: Starting off a comment/rant by telling someone [in caps] that he or she is “another one [sic] Danny Hater Prick” and [again in caps] a Sansa F*ckinshit Fan; and stating in uncouth terms that Sansa ”gave her pussy without second question to Ramsay and causing her own rape and does absolutely nothing for her to defend herself just crying like a 10 year old spoiled brat” , which insult two sets of fans and condemns a raped character (as asking for it; causing it; not defending against it; and for crying about it), impel whoever’s reading what you wrote to discount it as the ramblings of an angry misogynist. Surely you can engage in meaningful criticism without the slurs and the invective, can’t you?

      “Jon betray his vows and his NW brothers sleeping with a slut Wildling bitch.”

      Uh, no. He did not betray his vows (only to “father no children”; nothing forbidding fornication), and at Qhorin Halfhand’s direction he infiltrated the Wildlings. He didn’t betray his NW brothers; his intel saved them.

      One other thing: Ygritte was not a “slut Wildling bitch.” She was ferociously in love with and loyal to Jon Snow.”

      i didnt say..that she doesnt love him..but that he betray his NW brothers siding with the Wildings for her..massive mistake ..that lead them [the NW guys]to betray/ kill him in S5..Dont you remember?

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    40. Mr Derp: I bet if someone scoured the WOTW comment sections for the last year we’d see literally every possible ending be considered fan service by one commentor or another. Give it a rest already.

      This is nothing. Just wait until 2019 when the final season airs. The Twitter/social media meltdowns will be epic then.

      joey:
      Looks like the top secret scripts was a lie. Might also lend some validity to the ones that were leaked online.

      The so-called “leak” from last year may be 100% fake, but some of the plot elements sound quite plausible. I wouldn’t be surprised if they turned up in the final season.

      I think the end will be very polarizing.

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    41. Wow, what a nasty turn this thread has taken. Or was this a preview of what a Mad Queen meltdown in Season 8 might look like?

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    42. Sansa’s Knight,

      I honestly think this is exactly it. I’m betting that Dany does die and her death will be the last huge shock of the series. It’s just too perfectly Game of Thrones-y to set her up as the big hero all along and have her suffer a tragic demise. Dany or Jon will die in the end and Jon’s parentage has been too built up for him to all of a sudden die…again.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Flora Linden: I think the end will be very polarizing.

      Yea, it’s going to be a dumpster fire for sure. We’re still a year away and people are already arguing over how disappointing the ending will be. I love this show, but, it’s just a show. I think some people invest a little too much of their emotions into it. It’s fun to speculate, but it’s hard to have conversations with fans who take things too seriously.

        Quote  Reply

    44. David: Jon’s parentage has been too built up for him to all of a sudden die…again.

      I kind of agree with you. IMO Jon’s been set up as the martyr type, but why would they have him be the secret heir of the iron throne just for him to die again? It’s one of the many mysteries I can’t wait to see resolved.

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    45. dany is fire, night king is ice,

      “You’re a conqueror, not a ruler.” -Daario Naharis
      “All rulers are either butchers or meat.” -Daario Naharis

      I know it’s highly unlikely that such a thing will happen, but I’ve long thought (and stated here before) that it would be rich irony indeed if Daenerys, whose thirst for ruling has grown exponentially since her brother’s death, turned out to be either a terrible or incompetent ruler, while Daario, the mercenary with little ambition in whose hands she left Meereen, steps up to the challenge and becomes Daario the Great.

      /removes tinfoil hat

        Quote  Reply

    46. dany is fire, night king is ice:
      Is it too much to ask for Dany to die like Gollum? Die saving the world but not as a hero?

      For what it’s worth, I think comparing Dany to Gollum goes too far. He was a pathetic, grotesque shell of a person who was thoroughly enthralled to the power of the ring. While I do think Daenerys is too committed to seeking personal power above all else, and that Season 8 is not going to go well for her, I don’t think she’s nearly as far gone as Gollum was, and her death – if it happens – won’t be an echo of Gollum’s.

      Since ADWD I’ve thought that Daenerys’s arc is going to be like Anakin Skywalker’s: extraordinary orphaned youth of great power who suffered from insufficient mentoring, starts out idealistically with very good intentions but falls prey to inner demons especially when love & fear come into the mix, goes dark, ultimately redeems himself by sacrificing himself for the greater good.

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    47. Artemisia,

      ”For to put some peoples in their rightful place ..you should to be little bit aggressive.”
      ———————

      I, and many others, reject your premise: It is nobody’s responsibility to put other commenters “in their rightful place” with “aggressive” language, especially if you are unilaterally determining what their “rightful place” is.

      Anyway, let’s not argue about this. Just please try to tone down the invectives and expletives. Okay? I think you’ll find your points come across better that way.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Really? I’d argue it’s mis-direct just like back in GOT/S1 where Ned was built up as the hero, or the way we directed to believe Rob would avenge his father only to fall quite brutally. Dany was built up in the meantime the fact there was a rightful heir to the throne was hidden in plain sight.

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    49. Gwidhiel: For what it’s worth, I think comparing Dany to Gollum goes too far. He was a pathetic, grotesque shell of a person who was thoroughly enthralled to the power of the ring. While I do think Daenerys is too committed to seeking personal power above all else, and that Season 8 is not going to go well for her, I don’t think she’s nearly as far gone as Gollum was, and her death – if it happens – won’t be an echo of Gollum’s.

      Since ADWD I’ve thought that Daenerys’s arc is going to be like Anakin Skywalker’s: extraordinary orphaned youth of great power who suffered from insufficient mentoring, starts out idealistically with very good intentions but falls prey to inner demons especially when love & fear come into the mix, goes dark, ultimately redeems himself by sacrificing himself for the greater good.

      Thats Danny goes be like Anakin Skywalker is not hinted in the show..Jon has more hints/possibilities to go on the dark path..He after his resurrection has become more cold/dark personality and little bit entitled/selfish ..He has more similarities with Anakin Skywalker than Danny.

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    50. Jon Snowed:
      Really? I’d argue it’s mis-direct just like back in GOT/S1 where Ned was built up as the hero, or the way we directed to believe Rob would avenge his father only to fall quite brutally. Dany was built up in the meantime the fact there was a rightful heir to the throne was hidden in plain sight.

      The same should to said and for Jon..that will be fair..He is built to be a hero..but i see him like Rob and Ned had a not so heroic end..Or he will be like Anakin Skywalker ..the villain and will live or he will die as the good guy..Ned and Robb they have been good guys but they die.

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    51. I see Dany as a complicated mixture of incredible compassion and arrogant self-righteousness. You really can’t compare her to many fictional characters tbh. And you cannot really predict her end. Because any end for her is at the same time predictable and shocking.

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    52. Wolfish:

      I know it’s highly unlikely that such a thing will happen, but I’ve long thought (and stated here before) that it would be rich irony indeed if Daenerys, whose thirst for ruling has grown exponentially since her brother’s death, turned out to be either a terrible or incompetent ruler, while Daario, the mercenary with little ambition in whose hands she left Meereen, steps up to the challenge and becomes Daario the Great.

      /removes tinfoil hat

      Hey, I like this! I agree that we’re unlikely to ever see it (I’m afraid that, at least for the show, we’re done with Meereen), but it makes an awful lot of sense.

      I have a lot of sympathy for Daenerys Targaryen, even though I have a laundry list of criticisms of her and her actions. She’s largely self-taught, and besides her lack of direct mentoring she also has a lack of role models to fashion herself after. She has no family – and I think that’s actually one of the central themes of her story.

      Cersei once told Sansa that the more people you love, the weaker you are. That’s some warped advice, but I think Daenerys might actually embody Cersei’s desired love-free state. After leaving Daario behind in Meereen, Daenerys said, “I said farewell to a man who loves me, a man I thought I cared for, and I felt nothing.”

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    53. Wolfish:
      dany is fire, night king is ice,

      “You’re a conqueror, not a ruler.” -Daario Naharis
      “All rulers are either butchers or meat.” -Daario Naharis

      I know it’s highly unlikely that such a thing will happen, but I’ve long thought (and stated here before) that it would be rich irony indeed if Daenerys, whose thirst for ruling has grown exponentially since her brother’s death, turned out to be either a terrible or incompetent ruler, while Daario, the mercenary with little ambition in whose hands she left Meereen, steps up to the challenge and becomes Daario the Great.

      /removes tinfoil hat

      That will not be in the show ..Instead of Danny i see Sansa becoming a bloothirsty/powerthirsty Queen[behind Jons back] in Winterfell..She has already inherit Cerceis way of thinking and Lissas personality issues..she has a psychosis for Jon and is jealous of his relationship with Danny..in the same level that Lissa was jealous for Catelyn/Littlefinger relationship.She will try commit atrocities next season against Jon/Danny and her family..and will killed by Arya or Jon for that.Sansas destiny is death by a family member hands..as Ladys death was.Instead Dannys destiny is not the Throne but to have a home[the House with Red Doors and the Lemon Trees] and to have a family with Jon..things that she never had..but want.

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    54. David:
      Sansa’s Knight,

      I honestly think this is exactly it. I’m betting that Dany does die and her death will be the last huge shock of the series. It’s just too perfectly Game of Thrones-y to set her up as the big hero all along and have her suffer a tragic demise. Dany or Jon will die in the end and Jon’s parentage has been too built up for him to all of a sudden die…again.

      Jon will be also shockingly and unexpected to die…Danny is expected from the majority of the fans to die..so i dont think so..The sweet part of the ending will be she surprisingly survives ..The bitter+ unexpected will be Jon dies actually.

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    55. I could even see Dany surviving, but rather than taking the throne, leaving it all behind and going away from Westeros.

      I can think of 800 endings for her, lol

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    56. I saw BryndenBFish having the same discussion with Joanna Robinson on Twitter, they believe Dany will die and whilst most of us who are heavilly invested in the story can see it (potentially) coming there are huge amounts of casual viewers who will have their minds blown. Dany dying will be a bigger shock than Jon even if they now know he’s the rightful heir.

        Quote  Reply

    57. I agree at this point it would be surprising to see Sansa die, if you’d have asked before before S6/S7 I would have said she’d be a prime target but at this stage her final arc seems to be clearly with ruling the North once Jon ascends to the Iron throne or dies in the final battle.

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    58. Sorry by I see absolutely zero foreshadowing that Jon will turn “bad” in this story he may die but in my opinion that would be terrible story telling.

        Quote  Reply

    59. I certainly agree Jon isn’t 100% safe, both him and Dany had plot armour until the latter reaches of this story but neither are safe now. For me at least the fact that Jon is the rightful heir gives him a little more plot armour than Dany but I wouldn’t put my mortgage of either of the surviving.

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    60. Jon Snowed,

      Given how many things D&D either glossed over or ignored entirely in S7, I’m afraid I agree with you. But it’ll still really piss me off if, after everything Daenerys & Co. did in in Slaver’s (ahem, Dragon’s) Bay, at show’s end we don’t see where that region is headed politically.

        Quote  Reply

    61. Ten Bears:

      I, and many others, reject your premise: It is nobody’s responsibility to put other commenters “in their rightful place” with “aggressive” language, especially if you are unilaterally determining what their “rightful place” is.

      Anyway, let’s not argue about this. Just please try to tone down the invectives and expletives.Okay? I think you’ll find your points come across better that way.

      +1!

        Quote  Reply

    62. Grandmaester Flash:
      Don’t you have any homework to do, Artemisia?

      Its Eastern Europe there[Greece]..7 hours forward from USA,, and i have finish with my job today[tomorrow again]..so i have free time now to talk/write as much as i want..Im 28 and i have finish university years now[2013 ]..so i dont have homeworks anymore.

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    63. fdr: If Dany does not start to wear armor, she can get hit by an arrow (or together with Drogon against NK).

      Someone can get killed by an arrow while wearing armor, and someone can survive being hit by an arrow without wearing armor.

      Artemisia: Danny is expected from the majority of the fans to die..so i dont think so..

      They did not take into account what fans expects with the ending. For one thing, they probably got it from Martin, who has had it for decades. For another, nobody creates decision trees based on what the fans expect.

      However, we can flip-flop this. What the fans expect probably will happen simply because, between the lot of us, we’ve picked up on where the story is going.

      Of course, in this case, I see no evidence that the majority of fans expect Daenerys to die. Nor is the the sort of thing (like, say, who Jon’s parents were) where “group think” really applies. Oh, true: their is a vocal contingent that wants her to die, but that seems to come largely from the pool of fans who refuse to accept that Daenerys is one of the primary protagonists. (I’m not certain that most of that crowd understands what a “protagonist” is, which might be a big part of the problem!) Moreover, we now are in a different area: we are not talking about what people think will happen, but instead what people wish to see happen.

      (The reverse got conflated last year: the showrunners were accused of “Fan-servicing” when many long-held and popular conjectures were confirmed; but true fan-servicing would have been providing what a plurality of fans wanted to see, such as Tyrion being a dragon-rider, not what a plurality of fans inferred would happen.)

      Ten Bears: I remember. The NW traitors betrayed HIM, their Lord Commander – NOT the other way around.

      Ah, here we are in a fuzzy area of interpretation! You are supposed to be loyal to the Lord Commander. You are supposed to be loyal to the vows of the Nights Watch. The “Nationalist” contingent of the NW genuinely thought that they could be loyal to the commander or loyal to their vows, but not both.

      On the other hand, it is overly simplistic to say that Jon truly was a traitor. Yes, he was supposed to keep Wildlings out of Westeros. However, Jon also recognized that there was a still greater danger in keeping them out of Westeros. The Nationalist contingent never genuinely accepted this.

      This is the meat of the SoI&F story. There is no “good” or “evil” to which one can slavishly adhere: instead, there are a load if “if / else if / else” statements that contradict each other in different circumstances.

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    64. dany is fire, night king is ice: Is it too much to ask for Dany to die like Gollum? Die saving the world but not as a hero?

      Gollum did not die a hero: in no way did he intend to sacrifice himself for other’s and in no way was his action for anybody other than himself. Gollum dying was a eucatastrophe (or, if you prefer, Deus ex Machina): Tolkien always intended us to read it as an act of Eru (god) that was a reward for Frodo’s perserverance.

      At any rate, this is a fundamentally different type of story. The overarching story itself is about enduring damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-do-not circumstances. If one of the main characters sacrifices him/herself, then we do not see them living with the consequences of his/her actions. Now, sacrificing a secondary character might be in play: but that means that the main character has to live with the gambit for the rest of his/her life.

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    65. Jon Snowed:
      I saw BryndenBFish having the same discussion with Joanna Robinson on Twitter, they believe Dany will die and whilst most of us who are heavilly invested in the story can see it (potentially) coming there are huge amounts of casual viewers who will have their minds blown.Dany dying will be a bigger shock than Jon even if they now know he’s the rightful heir.

      Danny dying will be predictable,cliche and complete fan-service..everyone expects her to die..If she stays pregnant[for sure]i see her death possibilities decreased ..because of 9 month and + pregnancy armor[turned on]..Instead i see Jons possibilities increased heavily and his plot armor turned off..You had put/pay too much hope/attention[as the others fans do] on that Danny dies/Jon rules..you will be disappointed at the end…..You should to play with possibilities as i do ..not to lean in your own predictions.

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    66. I feel the fandom has gotten more bloodthirsty than D&D and George at this point lol. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Big 5” all survived the end of the series. In fact, that is what I’m predicting will happen, all the while delivering George’s promised bittersweet ending.

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    67. Artemisia,

      The only part of this statement with which I might agree is the idea of Daenerys ending her story arc in Braavos, in the house with the red door and the lemon trees; it might make for a satisfying conclusion for her to return to the safest place of her girlhood, both physically and psychologically, and for that place to be in a city founded by escaped slaves.

      As for Sansa: I think you fundamentally misunderstand the character. Ned didn’t kill Lady because she had done something that warranted her death; quite the contrary. Ned killed Lady because her execution had been demanded in place of Nymeria’s by the then all-powerful Lannisters, and his sense of honor demanded that he perform the deed. After all, he could only have imagined what terrible things Joffrey would have had done to Lady while she lived, or with her remains once she was killed. If we are to believe that the direwolves’ fate directly reflects that of their respective Stark siblings, then in conclusion an innocent Sansa will be executed and Arya will run free—as Lady was executed and Nymeria now leads her own wolfpack.

      As many other fans have noted many times, one of the greatest weaknesses of D&D’s adaptation is that they have given such short shrift to the Starks’ relationships with their direwolves, while heaping time, energy and bucketloads of cash on Daenerys’s relationship with her dragons. Remember that in the books (if I recall correctly, you have read them), Sansa is the only one who has nary a hint of warging ability (even Rickon, at three years old, has messy “wolf dreams,” and Shaggydog’s temperament, emotionality and unpredictability reflect Rickon’s own). Sansa certainly loved Lady, but her strong girlhood loyalty to her Tully self, which far, far outweighed any sense of a Stark self, precluded her having become a warg.

      Although in the show only Bran is clearly shown as a warg, I think D&D will ultimately show Sansa as the only Stark child whose Stark identity has been shaped not from lifelong devotion to House Stark and its sigil, but from having learned—in many, many difficult ways—that her glamorous fantasies of southron life were constructed of nothing but minstrels’ lies… as the Hound tried to tell her many a moon ago.

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    68. Wolfish:
      Jon Snowed,

      Given how many things D&D either glossed over or ignored entirely in S7, I’m afraid I agree with you. But it’ll still really piss me off if, after everything Daenerys & Co. did in in Slaver’s (ahem, Dragon’s) Bay, at show’s end we don’t see where that region is headed politically.

      Other characters had commit more atrocities than her..She is the last on the list of the GOT characters that had commit atrocities ..On the Top 3 are No1= Stannis ..killed his daughter for a stupid prophesy and his brother [with dark magic] for the Throne and cheated his wife with a crazy religious slut bitch ..No2= Sansa ..betraying her family[leading them to their deaths] for the love of Geoffrey,lied about the Army of the Vale ,costing Rickons life and almost Jons life in the BOTB and being jealous for Jon/Danny..that would make her to commit something very bad to them next season ..making Jon or Arya angry with their dark sister and kill her ..No3=Cercei ..she fullfiled the MK promise to kill with wildfire innocent peoples[as she did in S6]..she lead her childrens to their deaths making massive mistakes one upon another for to take power in her hands ..squeeze over their dead bodies and kills everyone who dont agree with her or doesnt like her [innocent or not]in her bloody/crazy path..This shows in us who has commit the most gruesome atrocities in GOT..and its not Danny..100% true.

        Quote  Reply

    69. Artemisia,

      Overcaffeinated much?

      I didn’t write anything about “atrocities.” I didn’t even indicate whether or not I thought Daenerys committed any. In your zeal to defend your favorite character, you’re reading things that people haven’t even written into their comments!

        Quote  Reply

    70. Wolfish:
      Artemisia,

      The only part of this statement with which I might agree is the idea of Daenerys ending her story arc in Braavos, in the house with the red door and the lemon trees; it might make for a satisfying conclusion for her to return to the safest place of her girlhood, both physically and psychologically, and for that place to be in a city founded by escaped slaves.

      As for Sansa: I think you fundamentally misunderstand the character. Ned didn’t kill Lady because she had done something that warranted her death; quite the contrary. Ned killed Lady because her execution had been demanded in place of Nymeria’s by the then all-powerful Lannisters, and his sense of honor demanded that he perform the deed. After all, he could only have imagined what terrible things Joffrey would have had done to Lady while she lived, or with her remains once she was killed. If we are to believe that the direwolves’ fate directly reflects that of their respective Stark siblings, then in conclusion an innocent Sansa will be executed and Arya will run free—as Lady was executed and Nymeria now leads her own wolfpack.

      As many other fans have noted many times, one of the greatest weaknesses of D&D’s adaptation is that they have given such short shrift to the Starks’ relationships with their direwolves, while heaping time, energy and bucketloads of cash on Daenerys’s relationship with her dragons. Remember that in the books (if I recall correctly, you have read them), Sansa is the only one who has nary a hint of warging ability (even Rickon, at three years old, has messy “wolf dreams,” and Shaggydog’s temperament, emotionality and unpredictability reflect Rickon’s own). Sansa certainly loved Lady, but her strong girlhood loyalty to her Tully self, which far, far outweighed any sense of a Stark self, precluded her having become a warg.

      Although in the show only Bran is clearly shown as a warg, I think D&D will ultimately show Sansa as the only Stark child whose Stark identity has been shaped not from lifelong devotion to House Stark and its sigil, but from having learned—in many, many difficult ways—that her glamorous fantasies of southron life were constructed of nothing but minstrels’ lies… as the Hound tried to tell her many a moon ago.

      I agree..but if she doesnt had fall stupidly in love with Geoffrey ..then there wouldnt have been dead Starks..She is 50% responsible for what happen to her and her family all this seasons ..She should to have been like Arya..smart and wicked mind..not with the head on the clouds ..She also has start to play dirty in Winterfell now who Jon is far away ..and im worried that she is jealous/crazy about Jon/Dannys relationship ..as her aunt Lissa was for Littlefinger/Catelyn ..and will try to hurt Danny/her baby or to turn Jon against his pregnant wife..To be honest..i see her turned on another onme Cercei or another one Lissa and starts goes berserk …her intention and her character is pretty gloomy.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Wolfish,

      That’s a great Sansa/Lady analysis. Cool. 😎

      Jay Targ:
      I feel the fandom has gotten more bloodthirsty than D&D and George at this point lol.I wouldn’t be surprised if the “Big 5” all survived the end of the series.In fact, that is what I’m predicting will happen, all the while delivering George’s promised bittersweet ending.

      All Big 5 surviving isn’t likely. My personal death pool:

      Most likely to survive – Sam, Davos, Tyrion, Sansa, Gilly, young Sam

      Most likely will die at the end – Cersei, Jaime, Dany, Jon, Euron, Arya, Beric, Melisandre, Drogon, Rhaegal

      Not sure, could go either way – Theon, Yara, Sandor, Brienne, Pod, Bronn, Tormund, Varys, Bran

        Quote  Reply

    72. Wolfish:
      Artemisia,

      Overcaffeinated much?

      I didn’t write anything about “atrocities.” I didn’t even indicate whether or not I thought Daenerys committed any. In your zeal to defend your favorite character, you’re reading things that people haven’t even written into their comments!

      Thats because i know what i will face in the fandom ..i can read their minds before i can read what they writing..Its not easy for me and not fun at all ..but simply i can.I know what are my + and my –

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    73. Artemisia: Thats because i know what i will face in the fandom ..i can readtheir minds before i can read what they writing..Its not easy for me and not fun at all ..but simply i can.I know what are my + and my –

      Can you read what’s in my mind right now?

        Quote  Reply

    74. Flora Linden,

      Thank you!

      Artemisia,

      If I had the power of telepathy I’d be spending my time in far more constructive ways than arguing with other GoT fans. Like being Queen of the Universe or something. /snark

      You can’t possibly “read [everyone’s] mind before [you] read what they are writing.” It’s an insult to other commenters and to the spirit of this site to make baseless assumptions.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Wolfish:
      Flora Linden,

      Thank you!

      Artemisia,

      If I had the power of telepathy I’d be spending my time in far more constructive ways than arguing with other GoT fans. Like being Queen of the Universe or something. /snark

      You can’t possibly “read [everyone’s] mind before [you] read what they are writing.” It’s an insult to other commenters and to the spirit of this site to make baseless assumptions.

      Ok ..then i like that telepathy clash we you and me have now..lol..acceptable and respected every opinion there..

        Quote  Reply

    76. Artemisia: Thats because i know what i will face in the fandom ..i can readtheir minds before i can read what they writing..Its not easy for me and not fun at all ..but simply i can.I know what are my + and my –

      I’ve met people like you before.

      I didn’t like them.

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    77. Artemisia: January 9, 2018 at 2:29 pm

      Grandmaester Flash:
      Don’t you have any homework to do, Artemisia?

      Its Eastern Europe there[Greece]..7 hours forward from USA,, and i have finish with my job today[tomorrow again]..so i have free time now to talk/write as much as i want..Im 28 and i have finish university years now[2013 ]..so i dont have homeworks anymore.

      28, you say? You come across more like a twelve-year-old.

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    78. Anyway, getting things back to a more sane direction, one of the things I’m looking forward to in season 8 is Jorah meeting the lady bear of Bear Island. It should be an interesting meeting between the two Mormonts. It’ll also give Lyanna something to do other than the usual “I may be small but I’m tough” angle. Or, maybe it won’t, I dunno. Either way, I’m looking forward to it!

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    79. Artemisia,

      In this thread I’ve seen both Ten Bears and Wolfish respectfully engage with your posts (some of which were absolutely bonkers). They have modeled constructive English-language discussion for you, and given suggestions about how you could engage with others in this community in a way that might allow you to be heard in a more positive light.

      I’m quite new to this community, and my free time is limited so I’m more often just reading rather than posting, but what draws me here is the intelligent discussion and the spirit of inclusiveness, in which different opinions can be shared without insults, or childish emotional outbursts. In this thread you have stood out as someone who violates those two principles.

      You complained upthread that you are “one of those that nobody pays attention to his/her theories.” Speaking only for myself, I tend to skip over posts that look like rants intended to shout down anyone who disagrees with the writer’s passionately held beliefs. Because I sense that they’re not interested in my perspective. You cannot “conquer” other minds, you can only try to persuade them.

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    80. Mr Derp:
      Anyway, getting things back to a more sane direction, one of the things I’m looking forward to in season 8 is Jorah meeting the lady bear of Bear Island.It should be an interesting meeting between the two Mormonts.It’ll also give Lyanna something to do other than the usual “I may be small but I’m tough” angle.Or, maybe it won’t, I dunno.Either way, I’m looking forward to it!

      Me too!

      Also: poor Jorah.

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    81. Mr Derp:
      Anyway, getting things back to a more sane direction, one of the things I’m looking forward to in season 8 is Jorah meeting the lady bear of Bear Island.It should be an interesting meeting between the two Mormonts.It’ll also give Lyanna something to do other than the usual “I may be small but I’m tough” angle.Or, maybe it won’t, I dunno.Either way, I’m looking forward to it!

      It will be a very interesting encounter! I wonder if Jorah will stake a claim to Bear Island or, as was the case with his insistence Jon kept Longclaw in Beyond the Wall, he will renounce all claims to it. I tend to suspect the latter – should they survive, I think he would see his place as being by Daenerys’s side.

      With Jaime and Team Jon/Daenerys heading to Winterfell, there is so much potential for exciting reunions and first encounters. I have a long list of them I am excitedly looking forward to, but accept that – as was the case with the Dragonpit Summit – there may not be time to give all of them the screen time they deserve.

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    82. Gotta say I totally agree with you both here. Seems this place has become worse over the last few months. All we seem to get now are a series of nonsensical babbling or hurling insults. It takes all the fun out of these debates, and especially when they’re dominated by two or three people behaving this way. A lot of the regulars don’t even seem to post anymore. Shame 😬

      Gwidhiel,

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

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    83. Wimsey,

      The putported “betrayal” by Jon of his NW brothers I was responding to and disputing was the assertion that

      “Jon betray his vows and his NW brothers sleeping with a slut Wilding bitch.”

      In my mind, his cave romp with Ygritte dod not betray hos NW brothers, and was not a volitional act When Rose Leslie’s chsracter announces to you “I want you to see me. All of me”, strips down to nothing, and enbraces you…you’re in no condition to be making political decisions. And as Sam established, fornication is not forbidden by the NW vows: fathering children is.

      Ygritte: I want you to see me. All of me.
      (She strips, and embraces him)
      Jon: We shouldn’t.
      Ygritte: We should. Why are you still dressed?
      (Jon heads “south” with his tongue)
      Ygritte: You know nothing, Jon Sno–oh!

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    84. Gwidhiel,

      I’ve already pictured Lyanna Mormont tossing high-dose levels of snark at Jorah if he shows up on Bear Island. I wrote something about this a while back but never posted it… Lemme find it and see why.

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    85. Ten Bears:
      Wimsey,

      The putported “betrayal” by Jon of his NW brothers I was responding to and disputing was the assertion that

      “Jon betray his vows and his NW brothers sleeping with a slut Wilding bitch.”

      In my mind, his cave romp with Ygritte dod not betray hos NW brothers, and was not a volitional act …

      …And as Sam established, fornication is not forbidden by the NW vows: fathering children is.

      Yup!

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    86. Ten Bears:
      Gwidhiel,

      I’ve already pictured Lyanna Mormont tossing high-dose levels of snark at Jorah if he shows up on Bear Island. I wrote something about this a while back but never posted it… Lemme find it and see why.

      Oh, please do!

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    87. I’m not sure if there’s any need for any substantial interaction between Jorah and Lyanna. He’s already been stripped of his title and, based on his conversation with Jon re. Longclaw, he seems pretty certain that he’s forfeited any birthrights.

      I wouldn’t be surprised to see Lyanna give Jorah a bit of grief as part of some broader expression of distrust or dissatisfaction directed towards Daenerys and/or Jon though.

      I’m not sure if D&D will be able to resist making Lyanna the mouthpiece for any display of Northern dissent, pride or loyalty. Delete as appropriate.

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    88. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      I’m not sure if there’s any need for any substantial interaction between Jorah and Lyanna. He’s already been stripped of his title and, based on his conversation with Jon re. Longclaw, he seems pretty certain that he’s forfeited any birthrights.

      Good point, yes.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      I’m not sure if D&D will be able to resist making Lyanna the mouthpiece for any display of Northern dissent, pride or loyalty. Delete as appropriate.

      I agree. As I’ve contemplated various directions they could go in Season 8, one path that seems *possible* is for a political marriage between Jon & Sansa to be demanded by the Northern lords once Jon’s heritage is revealed. While I’m not convinced that’s going to happen, what I do feel pretty sure about is that if it does, Lyanna Mormont will be very vocal in supporting it – she might even be the one to bring it up in the first place. A callback to the snark she gave Sansa in Season 6 about her marriages.

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    89. Gwidhiel,

      That sort of talk is considered blasphemy by many. But I haven’t completely ruled out that possibility either, especially if the conclusion is GRRM’s. It’d certainly be a way to resolve the future of House Stark, which is something I doubt GRRM will leave open-ended.

      But I think Lyanna’s more likely to get her sass on when the bloke she fiercely championed as King turns up back at Winterfell and introduces everybody to the new Queen they didn’t ask for.

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    90. I think Emilia is sad that the Queen she’s portraying is not as good as she thought. It’s probably why she was in a daze after she read the season 8 script.
      Hopefully Dany dies in a satisfying way.

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    91. Ramsay's 20th Good Man:

      That sort of talk is considered blasphemy by many.

      I fully expect that at least one scathing rebuttal replete with accusations of bias for or against this character or that will make its appearance in due time.

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    92. Gwidhiel:

      I agree. As I’ve contemplated various directions they could go in Season 8, one path that seems *possible* is for a political marriage between Jon & Sansa to be demanded by the Northern lords once Jon’s heritage is revealed.While I’m not convinced that’s going to happen, what I do feel pretty sure about is that if it does, Lyanna Mormont will be very vocal in supporting it – she might even be the one to bring it up in the first place. A callback to the snark she gave Sansa in Season 6 about her marriages.

      Why would the Northerners demand a political marriage between Jon and Sansa? Jon is a Northerner and Ned Stark’s nephew. He would have the support of Arya Stark who loves him dearly and Bran Stark. If Jon’s Targaryen lineage is revealed and he is the heir to the Iron Throne, the Northerners would be happy that one of their own is in KL. Being a Targaryen is not going to suddenly change who Jon is as a person – he still has Ned Stark’s blood running through his veins and holds true to Ned Stark’s teachings.

      If anything, we will see folks suggesting a Jon/Dany marriage (LF already brought this up) so that Dany will not have to fight Jon for legitimacy and they can both rule as Queen and King.

      Jon is either going to die fighting the NK or sit on the IT. He does not have to marry Sansa for either of those things.

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    93. SerNoName,

      Agreed. Jon won’t do an about-face and immediately reject his Stark heritage, or the teachings from Ned that he’s held dear his entire life; that would be fundamentally contrary to everything he is. Northerners might see a Starg/Targ union as an excellent strategy to have either 1) one of their own fighting for their interests in KL, or 2) one of their own being able to negotiate with Daenerys to allow the North its independence in exchange for long-lasting peace post-War for the Dawn. After all, what does the North really have? Its population is small and its farmlands sparse; what it offers economically to Westeros isn’t based on fertile lands and strategic military locales, but rather, the bounty of the sea and opportunities for trade. The North is the rough equivalent of Scandinavia–and there are reasons why the Vikings became superb seamen, then superb raiders, and finally, superb traders and explorers. If I recall correctly, there were no great rushes to conquer or hold Scandinavia, as there were many, many other places far more bounteous in both natural and human resources. Far better to let the North be, with its cold climate, hard soil, and Old God-worshipping people, and simply take advantage of the fact that they’re far hungrier for goods from the South than vice-versa.

      Or maybe I’m just full of Dornish red.

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    94. Wolfish:
      SerNoName,

      Agreed. Jon won’t do an about-face and immediately reject his Stark heritage, or the teachings from Ned that he’s held dear his entire life; that would be fundamentally contrary to everything he is. Northerners might see a Starg/Targ union as an excellent strategy to have either 1) one of their own fighting for their interests in KL, or 2) one of their own being able to negotiate with Daenerys to allow the North its independence in exchange for long-lasting peace post-War for the Dawn. After all, what does the North really have? Its population is small and its farmlands sparse; what it offers economically to Westeros isn’t based on fertile lands and strategic military locales, but rather, the bounty of the sea and opportunities for trade.The North is the rough equivalent of Scandinavia–and there are reasons why the Vikings became superb seamen, then superb raiders, and finally, superb traders and explorers. If I recall correctly, there were no great rushes to conquer or hold Scandinavia, as there were many, many other places far more bounteous in both natural and human resources. Far better to let the North be, with its cold climate, hard soil, and Old God-worshipping people, and simply take advantage of the fact that they’re far hungrier for goods from the South than vice-versa.

      Or maybe I’m just full of Dornish red.

      I don’t understand why Northern independence is necessary. Taking real world examples is Britain better in the EU or out of it? Is Brexit a good thing for Britain? The North did just fine for 300 years under Targaryen rule and involved themselves in Targaryen rule acting as advisors and military commanders. It continued under King Robert Baratheon with Ned as hand. It was only when the Lannisters took charge and first imprisoned and then executed Ned, that Robb went to war for independence. If they are going to once again have friendly rulers like Jon and Dany on the IT, why would not being in the union be better for the North than being outside it? And if Jon/Dan allow the North their independence would not the other kingdoms also ask for independence?

      If the IT exists at the end of the series, I see the North as being part of the seven kingdoms under Jon/Dany or Jon or Dany or their child. Not an independent kingdom.

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    95. SerNoName,

      Yup, I think George is of a similar mind

      I think Brexit was a mistake.

      Putting aside the specifics of the situation, and taking a long-range look, I think history shows that we do better when we join together into larger political units that embrace diversity, rather than building walls and breaking into smaller units. Alexander’s empire was better than the squabbling city-states of ancient Greece that preceded it (a pity he did not live long enough to make the union with Persia permanent, and twice a pity that his successors broke it all up into smaller countries to war on each other). The thirteen American colonies were wise to join together into one large country, despite their differences, than they would have been as thirteen small ones. The nations of Europe have been fighting each other for centuries; joining together into one great multi-national nation represents real progress.

      Eventually I do hope we will be one peaceful world, like the SF writers of my youth once predicted. Terra, Old Earth, call it what you will. We’re all human.

      http://grrm.livejournal.com/504703.html?thread=25175679#t25175679

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    96. SerNoName,

      I fully respect your opinion, and you make a cogent argument. I personally don’t care either way whether the North regains its independence or remains one of the Seven Kingdoms. But for now, at least, the people of the North have declared their independence. Of course, this is largely due to the fact that KL-based rule under the Mad King, and subsequently under the Lannisters, became one of unspeakable bloodthirst and then one of despotism. At this point in the story, the people of the North have very good reason to believe they would be better off ruled by one of their own, rather than by people who either roasted or beheaded their last two Lords and Wardens (and one Lord- and Warden-to-be). And that was before the declaration of independence and the Red Wedding.

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    97. Jay Targ,

      Like Ser No Name, you make a very cogent point… and straight out of the horse’s mouth, no less. Yes, ultimately it might be best to have a united Westeros, given the shared landmass and much shared history. Hence option 1 in my original response: the Northerners’ having “one of their own fighting for their interests in KL.” It seems to me that what most cripples the North in terms of its relationship with the South is its “foreignness” in climate, culture, and faith. Recognition of the North as a truly integral part of the Seven Kingdoms–and not just some little-understood, oft-joked-about hinterland with a shortage of good brothels and an excess of frozen testicles–would go a long way towards getting Northern people (not to mention the Free Folk!) to accept a, er, Trekkier version of Westeros.

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    98. Night King and Dany are Ice and Fire:
      Artemisia,

      lolololololol! Chill girl!
      (Can’t wait for Dany’s death.)

      i cant wait for Sansas death/sacrifice as Jons nissa nissa to pays for Dannys life..That little spoiled red head wicked psycho bitch should to be 3-4 meters under the ground in S8[hopefully] and my queen should to live and be happy with Jons child.

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    99. Grandmaester Flash: 28, you say?You come across more like a twelve-year-old.

      Yes sir 28..if what i say[the truth]hurts you ..then you arent responsible to reply in me..You waste my precious time and yours too..Have a nice day.

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    100. Gwidhiel:
      Artemisia,

      In this thread I’ve seen both Ten Bears and Wolfish respectfully engage with your posts (some of which were absolutely bonkers). They have modeled constructive English-language discussion for you, and given suggestions about how you could engage with others in this community in a way that might allow you to be heard in a more positive light.

      I’m quite new to this community, and my free time is limited so I’m more often just reading rather than posting, but what draws me here is the intelligent discussion and the spirit of inclusiveness, in which different opinions can be shared without insults, or childish emotional outbursts. In this thread you have stood out as someone who violates those two principles.

      You complained upthread that you are “one of those that nobody pays attention to his/her theories.”Speaking only for myself, I tend to skip over posts that look like rants intended to shout down anyone who disagrees with the writer’s passionately held beliefs. Because I sense that they’re not interested in my perspective. You cannot “conquer” other minds, you can only try to persuade them.

      Agree.. when someone has to agree or disagree with me..i respect it ..but when someone [i dont want to talk for commenters[sorry English is not my mother tongue] there ]talk like an idiot im responsible to put him/her in his right place and to try to change his/her naive opinion and to make it more logical and openminded..I cannot ”conquer”other minds but i can bring them with my ”waters”[as in my country say]with one way or another..agreeing or disagreeing.

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    101. Wolfish:
      SerNoName,

      Of course, this is largely due to the fact that KL-based rule under the Mad King, and subsequently under the Lannisters, became one of unspeakable bloodthirst and then one of despotism.

      Even after the Mad King, the North was still part of the seven kingdoms under Robert Baratheon.

      Wolfish:
      SerNoName,

      At this point in the story, the people of the North have very good reason to believe they would be better off ruled by one of their own, rather than by people who either roasted or beheaded their last two Lords and Wardens (and one Lord- and Warden-to-be). And that was before the declaration of independence and the Red Wedding.

      But that’s my point. Jon is one of their own and if he marries Dany and they have a child, then that child will have Stark blood as well. And Jon is vouching for Dany and has bend the knee because he thinks that she is a good queen and that his people will come to see the same. Jon and Dany are as far from the Mad King and the Lannisters as possible. The North fought for independence because Joffrey Lannister cut off Ned’s head. Are you saying that the Northern Lords would think that Jon or Dany will start cutting off Sansa, Arya and Bran’s heads once they sit on the IT?

      The North should be happy to be part of the bigger unions of kingdoms with one of their own sitting on the IT.

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    102. Artemisia: i cant wait for Sansas death/sacrifice as Jons nissa nissa to pays for Dannys life..That little spoiled red head wicked psycho bitch should to be 3-4 meters under the ground in S8[hopefully] and my queen should to live and be happy with Jons child.

      Like what the hell is your problem?
      Oh Ned’s death: It’s on him he went to Cersei and told her his plans ( before he even had a ship ), he made a bargain with LF and Slynt, LF got into Joffery’s ear.
      Sansa went wanting for the Queen and her father to patch their differences and got taken, and because Ned talked plans in front of the girls Cersei manipulates Sansa to get info. Ned’s death 99.9 % on Ned, LF, Slynt and Joffery.
      Sansa disobeying her dad got him taken earlier then expected, and it removed the small chance of escaping KL.
      For the record, I’m team Sansa and neutral on Danny, she has a heart, but she’s also too eager to make people charcoal briquettes, I want to see how she does with NO dragons.
      It was also interesting that the writers talked about the contrast between Danny and Sansa WRG to putting people to death and power handling, and thinking things through , compassion.

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    103. Grail King:
      Oh Ned’s death: It’s on him he went to Cersei and told her his plans ( before he even had a ship ), he made a bargain with LF and Slynt, LF got into Joffery’s ear.
      Sansa went wanting for the Queen and her father to patch their differences and got taken, and because Ned talked plans in front of the girls Cersei manipulates Sansa to get info. Ned’s death 99.9 % on Ned, LF, Slynt and Joffery.

      From GRRM

      “The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned’s downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned’s plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc… but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King’s Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc… all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.”

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    104. SerNoName,

      Without wishing to open up the whole horrid Brexit debate. I think it comes down to ruling by consent.

      The Northerners will no doubt join a united Seven Kingdoms if they feel it is in their interests and they are fairly represented.

      Yes, they lived under Targaryen/centralised rule adequately for a few hundred years. But they lived as an independent kingdom for thousands of years before that. And how did Targaryen rule end? With a tyrant on the throne and a bloody rebellion. And then the Baratheon era ended with a pretender on the throne and another bloody rebellion. It’s not unreasonable that they would require a compelling reason to re-enter that union.

      It may be that the war against the Army of the Dead acts as that reason. Or it could come down to marriages and political manoeuvring once the war is over.

      That’s why the EU was doomed to hit the rocks as it moved inexorably away from being a trading bloc towards a federal Europe without a clear mandate from the people of its members states.

      Even after Brexit should have given them a clear wake-up call about the manner and direction the EU is heading in, they’re still alienating the Visegrad nations and others with their dictatorial approach to governing the continent.

      Anyway, let’s not get bogged down in real world debate. But I’m sure that, regardless of his opinions on nations working together, GRRM knows that it’ll take more than just a good speech or good intentions to bring the Northerners back into the fold.

      As for your suggestion that the Northerners would be happy to have one of their own in King’s Landing or that they would suggest a union between Jon and Dany, you’re overlooking two things.

      Firstly, Jon has already succeeded in alienating the Northern lords. They were ready to abandon his kingship only last season. And that was before he bent the knee and nearly got himself killed on reckless suicide missions and so on.

      And secondly, Jon is a Targaryen. He is Rhaegar’s son. That means that if Jon marries Daenerys while still ruler of The North, then it grants the Targaryens clear dominion over The North. The Northerners wouldn’t actively champion Targaryen rule over them, regardless of how much Ned is a part of Jon’s nature.

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    105. Artemisia,

      Have you tried posting in the forums about the tinfoil? Of course if one posts there, there’s no guarantee that others will respond. I’ve had a bit of a “Good Queen Bess” vibe about Sansa the last couple of seasons – so I wouldn’t be surprised if she ended up on the iron throne. Somebody posted a long time ago about Vanessa Redgrave being headhunted for season 7 of GoT to play an older version of a main cast character and there was speculation that VR is tall like Sophie Turner. Then again, the poster could have been a troll.

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    106. SerNoName: From GRRM

      “The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned’s downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned’s plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc… but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King’s Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc… all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.”

      I’m well aware of that quote , my point still stands she was 11 years old, her father put the ‘enemies’ children above his own, he talked of leaving ( per GRRM, yet not on pages) of his plan to send them away, and that quote just valid date what I said, she knew nothing about Ned’s plans WRG to the Royal family, just them leaving.
      How hard would it be for a 35ish female to get info from an 11 year old, not hard at all.
      Aww, Sansa the Prince is training at the moment, I’ll send him to the ship shortly to see you off

      Not hard, 2nd point also stands, Ned was an idiot in that point in time, Sansa had no malice, Sansa had no control, Ned did, Sansa wasn’t vile, she was stupid, but the ADULTS hold the great majority of the blame.

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    107. Grail King,

      ”I’m well aware of that quote , my point still stands she was 11 years old, her father put the ‘enemies’ children above his own.”
      —————

      Precisely! Ned should have made sure his OWN children were far away and out of the zone of danger before he confronted Cersei and warned her to get her own children out of Dodge.

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    108. SerNoName:

      Jon is either going to die fighting the NK or sit on the IT. He does not have to marry Sansa for either of those things.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      SerNoName,

      Firstly, Jon has already succeeded in alienating the Northern lords. They were ready to abandon his kingship only last season. And that was before he bent the knee and nearly got himself killed on reckless suicide missions and so on.

      And secondly, Jon is a Targaryen. He is Rhaegar’s son. That means that if Jon marries Daenerys while still ruler of The North, then it grants the Targaryens clear dominion over The North. The Northerners wouldn’t actively champion Targaryen rule over them, regardless of how much Ned is a part of Jon’s nature.

      I echo Ramsay’s 20th Good Man‘s analysis of the issue at hand, and would add that from what I’ve seen, the North really does have a distinct cultural identity and its recent move to independence wasn’t done lightly. I don’t think the northern lords care about who sits on the Iron Throne, because they don’t intend to be ruled by it.

      We, show viewers, see the Iron Throne as the end game of the story – and it might be – but where the story currently is the northern lords, and Jon/Aegon Targaryen himself, don’t really give a damn about it. The argument that marrying Sansa wouldn’t help Jon consolidate his claim to the Iron Throne assumes that that is the goal that he/the North will have when his parentage is revealed. I don’t think it will be – not at first anyway.

      I’d be surprised if the show’s writers have characters repeating phrases if those words aren’t telling us something. “The night is dark and full of terrors” (= the Night King), Daenerys’s paragraph-long list of titles (= those titles are central to her identity and very important to her), “We know no king but the king in the north whose name is Stark” (= someone with another name, like Targaryen, won’t do).

      We, show viewers, know that Jon is far more Stark than he is Targaryen, that his uncle was truly like a father to him. His Stark cousins know that. But the northern lords don’t know him well enough to know that. And they were already voicing discontent with his rule, and making overtures to Sansa, last season. Sansa didn’t take the bait, but that doesn’t mean the lords will welcome Jon home with cheering, ready to follow his lead and bend the knee to Daenerys.

      Rather, the challenge Jon will face immediately when his parentage is revealed is that he surrendered the North’s independence to a foreigner who conveniently happens to be his aunt. That’s not gonna play well. And that’s what Jon marrying Sansa – who at that point will be the undisputed heir of Winterfell – could solve.

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    109. Gwidhiel:
      I echo Ramsay’s 20th Good Man‘s analysis of the issue at hand, and would add that from what I’ve seen, the North really does have a distinct cultural identity and its recent move to independence wasn’t done lightly. I don’t think the northern lords care about who sits on the Iron Throne, because they don’t intend to be ruled by it.

      We, show viewers, see the Iron Throne as the end game of the story – and it might be – but where the story currently is the northern lords, and Jon/Aegon Targaryen himself, don’t really give a damn about it. The argument that marrying Sansa wouldn’t help Jon consolidate his claim to the Iron Throne assumes that that is the goal that he/the North will have when his parentage is revealed. I don’t think it will be – not at first anyway.

      I’d be surprised if the show’s writers have characters repeating phrases if those words aren’t telling us something.“The night is dark and full of terrors” (= the Night King), Daenerys’s paragraph-long list of titles (= those titles are central to her identity and very important to her), “We know no king but the king in the north whose name is Stark” (= someone with another name, like Targaryen, won’t do).

      We, show viewers, know that Jon is far more Stark than he is Targaryen, that his uncle was truly like a father to him. His Stark cousins know that. But the northern lords don’t know him well enough to know that. And they were already voicing discontent with his rule, and making overtures to Sansa, last season. Sansa didn’t take the bait, but that doesn’t mean the lords will welcome Jon home with cheering, ready to follow his lead and bend the knee to Daenerys.

      Rather, the challenge Jon will face immediately when his parentage is revealed is that he surrendered the North’s independence to a foreigner who conveniently happens to be his aunt. That’s not gonna play well. And that’s what Jon marrying Sansa– who at that point will be the undisputed heir of Winterfell – could solve.

      Exactly !

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    110. Wimsey,

      > Someone can get killed by an arrow while wearing armor, and someone can survive being hit by an arrow without wearing armor.

      Sure, anyone can be killed, I was just paraphrasing Tyrion since we’re on a GoT website, I didn’t intend to be taken too seriously. Flying without a saddle and warm clothing would probably more dangerous to her in a semi-reality where flying dragons exist. And as we all know from Boromir, Hollywood heroes can almost survive plenty of arrows.

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    111. Artemisia,

      Good heavens, are we still on with this theme?! I’ve yet to read a more self-centered and aggrandizing comment on this site! What alternate reality do you live in?! Has anyone who “you put into their place” EVER move to “your waters” after the way ” you put them into place” by calling them “hater pricks” and “fuckingshit fans”.

      Get a grip of yourself for crying out loud and move on.

      Oh and hi Hodors Bastard, long time no see!

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    112. mau,

      She could die giving birth to a daughter, while being the penpenultimate Targaryen, with a convenient time gap between ep4 and ep5. Jon of course legitimizes her. (Again, I don’t want her to die, I just think it leaves more room for another twist or fanfiction)

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    113. Gwidhiel,

      Actually I think it would fit better with Sansa’s storyline that she will be suggesting a marriage herself after having been offered in marriage so many times before. And Littlefinger would approve! (he did suggest the Ruler in the North should marry the last Targaryen). And at least she knows about King’s Landing so Jon won’t lose his head in dealing with the local politicians.

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    114. Wimsey,

      > Gollum dying was a eucatastrophe (or, if you prefer, Deus ex Machina)

      “And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many — yours not least.” (chapter 2/62)

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    115. Wimsey,

      > Tolkien always intended us to read it as an act of Eru (god) that was a reward for Frodo’s perserverance.

      I would add pity to that and reverse the order.

      “Very well”, he answered aloud, lowering his sword. “But I am still afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him.” (chapter 34/62)

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    116. Grail King: Like what the hell is your problem?
      Oh Ned’s death: It’s on him he went to Cersei and told her his plans ( before he even had a ship ), he made a bargain with LF and Slynt, LF got into Joffery’s ear.
      Sansa went wanting for the Queen and her father to patch their differences and got taken, and because Ned talked plans in front of the girls Cersei manipulates Sansa to get info. Ned’s death 99.9 % on Ned, LF, Slynt and Joffery.
      Sansa disobeying her dad got him taken earlier then expected, and it removed the small chance of escaping KL.
      For the record, I’m team Sansa andneutral on Danny, she has a heart, but she’s also too eager to make people charcoal briquettes, I want to see how she does with NO dragons.
      It was also interesting that the writers talked about the contrast between Danny and Sansa WRG to putting people to death and power handling, and thinking things through, compassion.

      Oh yes, thank y ou! Ive been saying this for the last 8 years, (actually more because I was arguing this with readers long before the show started. What do people not get about this? Unless they just want someone they can use as a scapgoat….

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    117. fdr: “Very well”, he answered aloud, lowering his sword. “But I am still afraid. And yet, as you see, I will not touch the creature. For now that I see him, I do pity him.” (chapter 34/62)

      True, pity (both from Frodo & Bilbo) got them to where they were. However, although it might have been a necessary part, “pity” was not sufficient. Tolkien wrote at length about this, because many people took exception to Frodo finally caving into the Ring. In the climate of the times, it was compared to people who had collaborated with the Germans in occupied Europe. Of course, Tolkien expected everyone to see the hand-of-god in this (stemming in no small part from his stubborn denial of the fact that people no longer wanted to see that in stories!), so he insisted that he had not thought that readers would put in such a “modern” interpretation.

      Regardless, a key thing to keep in mind is that Lord of the Rings and SoI&F are fundamentally different types of stories. Oh, we might see some “gods” before it’s done: but it will be more “ptositheosis” than “Deus ex Machina,” I suspect! And along those lines, I think that a big part of the story will be how the main characters are living with themselves after the deeds are done.

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    118. Artemisia,

      Why is it expected a Nissa Nissa? I get in the book that theory is there, but in the show, and show watchers, I don’t think the idea is there. For me the hints only began this season. Subtle. Some not-so-subtle.

      But I think a story that’s been picked apart by readers for 15 years or so, can liekly form an image. And much easier to do that bc of so many years.

      But readers are not the 20million fans as a whole. Still think it will be a huge surprise.

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    119. Sansa’s Knight:
      I’m calling it … she’s found out she does not survive … and the hair is her tribute to Daenerys

      Don’t know if the timeline matches up with your speculation. It was reported that Liam Cunningham received the script for season 8 during the first week of October; while Emilia dyed her hair in mid September. Although I suppose it’s possible that Emilia received the script weeks before Liam did.

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    120. About the Sansa-Cersei episode, IMO Sansa’s age is an explanation but not an excuse. I doubt any of her siblings would have done it. Grail King, you do have a point that Cersei could easily get the info from an adolescent, but Sansa shouldn’t have gone to Cersei in the first place. And the essence of what GRRM said: “Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. ” seems reasonable. We shouldn’t entirely exonerate her, especially by blaming others. Ned acted from “the madness of mercy” and a certain guilelessness, but his timing was correct and should have gotten his girls out of harm’s way. IF Arya hadn’t smelled a rat and avoided the trap, she’d probably be dead thanks to the untender mercies of Cersei and Joffrey. Sansa fans should be grateful that D&D left that appalling incident out of the show. Sansa has grown up enough now that she understands ‘us and them’ and is unlikely to ever do such a thing again.

      Dear Artemisia,
      Watchers on the Wall is IMO the most civilised locale for GoT information and discussion on the Internet. I’ve tried many sites, but this is home for me. The key is that the Watchers are generally informed, kind, contributive, educated, creative, humourous, and most important, constructive. Flame wars, profanity, one-upsmanship, personal criticism, and rejection are very rare indeed. We all harp on favourite subjects at times, but usually in a positive way. Now that the final season is approaching, I imagine most fans are sensitive about the fates of their favourite characters. I am. I may criticise a character as above, but I do not wish them harm (except villains of course). I’ve seen you write some beautiful posts that truly augmented lively discussions here. Please continue in that mode. SRR

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    121. Mr Derp:
      Ten Bears,

      Nothing, unless he’s speaking in Elvish.

      Probably just a typo.Maybe he meant theosis?

      Oh thanks. I looked it up in the dictionary, and “ptositheosis” was defined as “the process of becoming covfefe.”

      (jk). I suspect AutoCorrect did what it’s done to me so many times: turned a real word into gibberish. Or Elvish. Or Elvis. (“Thank you. Thank you very much.”)

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    122. Stark Raven’ Rad: About the Sansa-Cersei episode, IMO Sansa’s age is an explanation but not an excuse. I doubt any of her siblings would have done it. Grail King, you do have a point that Cersei could easily get the info from an adolescent, but Sansa shouldn’t have gone to Cersei in the first place. And the essence of what GRRM said: “Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. ” seems reasonable. We shouldn’t entirely exonerate her, especially by blaming others. Ned acted from “the madness of mercy” and a certain guilelessness, but his timing was correct and should have gotten his girls out of harm’s way. IF Arya hadn’t smelled a rat and avoided the trap, she’d probably be dead thanks to the untender mercies of Cersei and Joffrey. Sansa fans should be grateful that D&D left that appalling incident out of the show. Sansa has grown up enough now that she understands ‘us and them’ and is unlikely to ever do such a thing again.

      I didn’t excuse it, I said it was stupid, I know I blamed the adults 99% ( but more like 95%) showing it would have made her look bad, but it doesn’t change what really happened. Ned is told by Varys, by LF he’s being watched, followed etc. He tells the girls he’s sending them home for safety, he tells Van Poole to find a ship, he tells US, that he can no longer use his OWN CHILDREN’S safety as an excuse for not doing what his HONOR demands, he meets Cersei that same day, telling her what he knows and what he’s going to do ( and he doesn’t have a ship yet! ) days before Sansa disobeyed and ran to say good bye or asked Cersei to patch up what ever problem she and her dad had, he put Cersei’s kids above his own, he bargained with LF who along with Slynt went to Cersei, before Sansa’s foolish mistake, her foolishness remove what small chance they may have had to escape, and Cersei could easily get that info about the ship from an 11 year old naive, love struck child.
      The people who dislike Sansa paint it as treason, or malice, which it wasn’t.

      You’re right Arya would not have done it, but then she’s not love struck or at puberty yet. Arya had her share of stupid in Darry with Joffery , it was their actions that led to the death of an innocent boy and Direwolf, because of a weak King and a vindictive woman. The runners also didn’t show Sansa sticking up for Arya, or her deescalating the tensions between Renley and Joffery, or questioning him for not bringing the Hound, which would have prevent Joffery from being a bigger ass hat .
      These same people blame Sansa for lady’s death, but if they actually paid attention, they would have seen: 1 -Robert made a judgement, Ned you discipline your daughter, I’ll do the same to my son , Ned replied yes your grace, Robert starts to leave it was over ( or so he, we thought ) 2. Cersei – What about the wolf that savaged our son? Robert stops- forgot about the damn wolf, he looks at a lannister soldier, we found no trace of the wolf your grace, he grunts turns to leave a second time and Cersei says we have another wolf, the girls scream, Ned complains, Cersei smiles, Robert turns to her so be it, Ned sends the girls to bed, goes to do the deed himself Clegane walks into camp with dead Micah ( who was dead BEFORE ) Sansa was even called, oh this too was 1 or 2 days after the incident. Yet the non fans want to blame Sansa for this, but it did not happen the way they claim.
      My opinion stands. Yes each girl did a mistake, each lead to deaths, but all the deaths fall squarely on the adults .
      I see no correlation between Sansa becoming Cersei, Sansa has not shown hatred for a sibling by tweaking a penis, she hasn’t pushed anyone down a well for liking a brother. when the Queen deserted the holdfast to commit suicide it was an 11 year old girl who took charge, had aide rendered to a wounded soldier ( enemy of her house no less ), calmed the nervous woman of KL, before going to her room awaiting what most thought would be Stannis, didn’t work out.
      All this because someone ^^^^^^^ up there was butt hurt because someone doesn’t like his Dragon Queen.
      We’re 8 years out now Sansa isn’t S1 Book1 Sansa, she died on traitors bridge, but many are like Arya in S7, still stuck in season 1, book 1.

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    123. Who is this Geoffrey that Sansa betrayed her family for? I really would of loved it if GRRM had called him Geoffrey Baratheon.

      Cersei would of had to say “My beloved Geoff”.

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    124. Grail King,

      ”…like Arya in S7, still stuck in season 1, book 1.”
      —————————

      Arya in S7 (Ep 5-6) was stuck in “Silence of the Lambs”, not season 1, book 1 of “Game of Thrones.”

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    125. Ten Bears:
      Grail King,

      ”…like Arya in S7, still stuck in season 1, book 1.”
      —————————

      Arya in S7 (Ep 5-6) was stuck in “Silence of the Lambs”, not season 1, book 1 of “Game of Thrones.”

      Bit of both : )

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    126. Grail King:

      We’re 8 years out now Sansa isn’t S1 Book1 Sansa, she died on traitors bridge, but many are like Arya in S7, still stuck in season 1, book 1.

      This! One of GRRM’s many strengths as a writer is the skillful way that he reveals the complexities of characters – we think we know them after our first exposure to them, but then we are challenged to update our understanding of them as the story progresses. Jaime Lannister is an excellent example.

      It’s hard to update our initial impressions of people, especially if the character in question is a type that resonates, negatively or positively, with the observer’s own personal aspirations & values. The audience’s tendency to view some characters through rose-colored glasses and others through shit-colored glasses is fertile ground for authors.

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    127. Gwidhiel,

      May I respectfully disagree, or cite an exception to the “initial impressions” supposition?

      Sandor Clegane.

      My first impression: he was a sadistic, background character. Now, he is…

      The Last Hero. 🗡🔥

      Seriously, he’s become a major character with his own story line.

      Oh, lest I forget. Exception #2: Hot Pie. Such an a*shole bully when we first met him, and now…he’s such a sweetheart.

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    128. Ten Bears:
      Gwidhiel,

      May I respectfully disagree, or cite an exception to the “initial impressions” supposition?

      Sandor Clegane.

      My first impression: he was a sadistic, background character. Now, he is…

      The Last Hero.🗡🔥

      Seriously, he’s become a major character with his own story line.

      Oh, lest I forget. Exception #2: Hot Pie. Such an a*shole bully when we first met him, and now…he’s such a sweetheart.

      Oh actually I don’t think we’re in disagreement, are we? Because I am in 100% accord with you about both Sandor and Hot Pie.

      I’m not saying that people never update their views of characters, just that it can be hard to do, especially when a character embodies traits that a reader/viewer strongly dislikes or strongly affiliates with. After that initial identification, people can be inclined to disregard new information that doesn’t fit the paradigm they’ve already developed for that character.

      I think this is a big hurdle for many people vis a vis Sansa. When we meet her in the show (less true in the first book) she was a shallow, bratty pretty girl, who often whined. Really irritating! All too relatable to real-world people who really do annoy us, so I think that some show viewers, like Season 7 Arya, have struggled to update their understanding of Sansa.

      For this thought exercise it’s too bad that Hot Pie is a minor character, because we have so little material to go by. But going on what we do have: the thing that made him unlikable when we first met him – his bullying – is very relatable in the real world. We saw just enough of him exposed as fearful, and then growing to respect Arya, to become likable. And Hot Pie’s growth into a likable person fits our standard understanding of fearful bullies. The Hound, on the other hand, doesn’t translate so easily to anyone I’ve ever met in the real world – he’s a much more complicated, nuanced, and actually rather extreme character. So I wonder if his redemption in viewer’s eyes isn’t impeded by real-world associations and preconceived notions about what types of people are worthy of second looks and more consideration.

      Also, I do wonder if we’re less willing to cut female characters slack when they present unlikable sides of themselves or undesirable behavior – i.e. it’s harder for a female character to overcome an initial negative impression? I’m just tossing that idea out there, not committed to it.

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    129. Ten Bears:
      Gwidhiel,

      You know, you’re right. We are not in disagreement. I was too hasty. 🤥

      Haha, well my impression of you is very positive, so I figured I hadn’t expressed myself very well the first time. 😘

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    130. Grail King,

      Gosh, I brought up only the one book incident since George’s So Spake Martin discussion of blame was included upthread. He’s canon for the books, which is the only place that scene appears. I agree and disagree with much of what you said about other incidents, but those are at most only tangentially connected to what George said. Yes, some people hold the Nymeria-Joffrey incident and what Sansa said about Cersei in S7E1, and more against her, but that certainly wasn’t my point. Ironically, I wrote that post in the first place as an attempt at peacemaking. I added the first paragraph because it is often vaguely discussed and here finally was the direct quote which offers a definitive answer to a controversial and ambiguous issue among book readers.

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    131. Artemisia,

      Great thought. I believe Sansa will wind up on the Iron Throne as Queen. But her experiences leading up to the throne will turn her into Cersei. Thus, she becomes Queen, but will Rule in the exact same fashion as Cersei….

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    132. Wimsey,

      I am not denying LOTR and Asoiaf are different types of stories. What I meant to say was that while the resolution of LOTR depends on divine intervention, it has been foreshadowed in the beginning nevertheless. It is a Deus ex Machina, but the gun had been hung by Gandalf (empathy is rewarded by Eru). Also Frodo falling for the ring had been foreshadowed a few times.

      I’m actually starting to think that GoT has to end somehow around the Throne Room, because it was so present in the start. Perhaps some repetition of Eddard Stark approaching Jaime, but then with different characters (perhaps Jon and Cersei) and a different outcome. It could have been working out an agreement with the White Walkers, but I haven’t seen any foreshadowing that the WW are up for negotiations (quite the contrary) and it’s quite late to introduce that element in the series. If the true finale is in King’s Landing, it could better fit the story, in my impression (it started with memories about the Mad King, it ends with resolving the Mad Queen).

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    133. IronPrice112,

      > but will Rule in the exact same fashion as Cersei

      Do you mean Cersei 0, as in season 5, thinking herself to be more clever than she is, or do you mean Cersei I, as in season 7, who has somehow learned much more from Tywin than most of us expected (no doubt her humiliation made her wiser) but is a ruthless ruler surpassing her adversaries their imagination.

      I think Sansa would rule as a less naive Stark. I guess naivity was more or less acceptable in the North, who have been used to the Starks as fair rulers (and perhaps this may have created a feedback loop that made them more naive over the generations, although for Eddard Stark in particular the time in “as high as honour” may have influenced him too) but it “fares less well in the south”. So ideally she would be a ruler with a significant amount of Stark principles but with a bit more knowledge of the world.

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    134. IMO, Sansa is very unlikely to end up on the Iron Throne. Not unless every other leader and Westerosi lord (from Jon, Dany, Jaime, and Tyrion all the way to Robin Arryn) dies. Honestly, I could envision Bronn on the Iron Throne before Sansa.

      I know that in past seasons Sophie Turner has expressed that wish for Sansa, but it seems wildly out of her story arc – not something she’d ever seek for herself, nor something anyone would select her for. I think the very idea is a red herring, either a deliberate misdirect or the result of an over-enthusiastic Sophie not knowing at the time what lay ahead for her character.

      To me, governing the North seems plausible for Sansa. Or being the consort of a ruler of either the North or Westeros. I’d be truly shocked if Sansa ends up on the Iron Throne in her own right.

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    135. Gwidhiel,

      I agree. Not that I wouldn’t want to see her or some other female character rule in her own right at the end. With Sansa it’s a very polarized discussion for some strange reason. People either hate her and want to see her die some horrible way or they love her and want her to be Queen/QitN. Especially since she’s expressed this desire early on in the story. But what no one seems to remember is that she was very young when she expressed it and also that she was socialized as a female of high birth to want this. Sansa was raised by a septa (not that many of them in the North, the ideas she put in her head were most probably ‘Southern’ as well) and a foreign mother who herself admitted she still felt an outsider in the North after having been married to a Stark and having lived around Northerners for years. She was fed stories of Southron ladies and courtly love, and raised to expect that she will at some point be married to a Lord. That mixed with everyone telling her on and on what a beauty she was would probably make her think that only a king would be good enough a match. It’s perfectly understandable that this is what she’d want given how she was raised as a female in that world.

      However, I do not think this is what she wants now. She learned the hard way that you should be careful what you wish for (she wanted to be married to a king, she got Joffrey; she desperately wanted to go home to Winterfell, she got Ramsay etc.) Even though she is not a fav of mine, I do like how her story evolved and have grown to respect her as someone who is more and more aware of her own flaws. I think s7 clearly showed that she has found her peace and has finally left the girl-Sansa behind. I agree it would make more sense for her at this point of her story to (finally) be te one who can choose who she is going to marry (rather than other people choosing for her) or even to choose to remain unmarried and be the Stark in Winterfell. I don’t really see much of Cersei in her at this point. Certainly not mad queen material. Especially if Jon rides off south, it is in her and Arya’s stories that the Stark storyline is resolved and even though I was sceptical at first of how they did it in s7 I think it does make sense in the context of the whole story and its themes. I’m not so sure Sansa will be so lucky in the books (if we ever get to read them), we’ve seen very little indication of that so far.

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    136. mablui,

      Yup, that’s how I see it too. I don’t quite see where the QitN camp is coming from, and I definitely can’t relate to the haters who want to see Sansa die. 🙅

        Quote  Reply

    137. mau: She won’t die. She has to give birth to a child, at that can happen only at the end.

      Which mothers died while giving birth to (what I still believe) are our three dragonriders? The moms of Jon, Tyrion, and…Dany.

      There are few coincidences in GRRM’s magical world.

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    138. Yes, I don’t think she will some how win the Throne. I think Dany will die leaving Jon on the Throne and Sansa as some sort of Queen stand-in because Jon Will never remarry after Dany. I could see Jon giving the Throne to Sansa/Tyrion and taking his child elsewhere….But Sansa will Rule as Cersei…….

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    139. thisgirlhasnoname: Which mothers died while giving birth to (what I still believe) are our three dragonriders? The moms of Jon, Tyrion, and…Dany.

      There are few coincidences in GRRM’s magical world.

      Yeah, Lyanna, Joanna and Rhaella all died in childbirth. There was also a scene in season two (can’t recall which episode, but in the second half of the season) in which Catelyn and Brienne were discussing the fact that both their mothers died in childbirth.

        Quote  Reply

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