Emilia Clarke “heartbroken” at fan reaction to Game of Thrones’ ending; Season 8 scripts reveal deleted scenes!

Daenerys Targaryen Funeral Season 8 804

Emilia Clarke hasn’t been shy about her reactions to the end of Game of Thrones, particularly as regards her character of Daenerys Targaryen, who one could say went a bit off the deep end there at the end. Still, before the following interview we’re bringing you today, the actress has never really addressed what her reactions were beyond that; or, more specifically, what did she think about the fan reactions?

On this week’s Stellar Magazine, via the Daily Mail, Emilia Clarke speaks to the fan response at the final episodes of Game of Thrones, which was divisive to say the least:

“I was too busy focusing on my own reactions to really pay too much attention, if any at all,” the actress says of her initial feelings. Indeed, Clarke has been frank in the past about how reading the final scripts left her speechless and wandering London for hours, due to Daenerys’s turn and death. With time, however, her feelings appeared to evolve: “The only thing I felt truthfully sad about was that [showrunners] David and Dan are my really good friends, and so it’s for them that I feel heartbreak, because it’s theirs.”

On a personal note: when I first read Emilia’s reaction to the ending, I felt for her; she is obviously deeply connected to Daenerys, and her end wasn’t only tragic but shocking–too shocking, some would argue (and some do, or else the ending wouldn’t be so divisive.) Nevertheless, I’m glad that Clarke has also taken note of the vitriolic reaction, exhibited by some watchers towards the showrunners, and decided to comment on it and commiserate with David and Dan, as some of those same fans were pitting Emilia Clarke against them in some imagined feud, if you can believe that!

Then again, if I know the ways of online fandom–and I think I do–this sadly won’t dissuade any believers, and so the battle between actor and showrunners will continue unabated in their minds. C’est la vie. Or, well, c’est le fandom.

In other news, speaking to Metro at the Q Awards, Isaac Hempstead Wright, who you may know better as Bran Stark (or perhaps as King Bran the Broken, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Six Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm,) was asked about what he would think if, despite what he was told, George R.R. Martin ended up enthroning someone else at the end of his book series:

“I will be a bit gutted I think,” Isaac confesses. Then again, there’s a silver lining: since “the books and the show were able to evolve as their own thing,” as he puts it, “George has no obligations to end it in any of the same ways we did,” so you could “get two alternative endings to Game of Thrones.” Isaac deems this as “quite cool.” As for who else he can envision in the throne, it appears the wolves stick together still: “It would have to be another Stark I think, Sansa or someone.” The pack survives, indeed.

Jon Snow Daenerys The Bells

Finally, Kim Renfro at Insider was lucky enough to read the entire final season’s scripts now deposited at the Writers Guild Foundation Shavelson-Webb Library in L.A., where she learned about some of the scenes or lines that didn’t make the cut, such as slightly expanded roles for Harry Strickland and Alys Karstark, a clearer through line of the isolation that lead Dany to her final decisions, and characters explictly discussing certain issues that many viewers felt should have been addressed on-screen.

For example, Missandei and Grey Worm originally had a role in the Winterfell hall feast after the battle, and their departure in order to have some alone-time as lovers was what originally prompted Dany’s feelings of isolation:

Dany is happy for her friend. But she’s also aware that everyone seems to be having fun except for her. She’s lonely and Varys clocks her loneliness…

The scene continues as aired, with Tormund celebrating Jon instead of her, but Dany’s increasing isolation was hammered home by literally being left alone without her only two long-time friends. In general, according to Renfro, “it’s much easier to track her descent into bitter loneliness and resolution against the rest of Westeros.”

Another bone of contention has been how certain noteworthy events went by unaddressed, such as Jon riding a dragon in the season premiere despite not being a known Targaryen. Though it’s not quite an uncontestable fact, it’s a general belief in Westeros that only Targaryens (or, more correctly, only Valyrians) can ride dragons, and this is reflected in the script: back in Dragonstone, when Tyrion tells Varys what Sansa told him about Jon’s true parentage, Varys is at first doubtful, which Tyrion counters with: “He rode a dragon. Has any non-Targaryen ever rode a dragon?”

Jon Rhaegal Winterfell episode

Then there is the incest. Oh, incest. An old friend of Game of Thrones.

Though, obviously, Jon distancing himself romantically from Daenerys in reacton to that same bit of news was because he was closely related to her, this is never explicitly said; instead, the political implications are at the forefront. In the scripts, however, when Jon arrives in Dragonstone, that interpretation is more textual. When the characters kiss, but before Jon breaks it and Dany makes her final fateful decision, this happens:

She’s desperate for a connection; she cannot remember a time she has felt this alone. She pulls back from the kiss and looks at Jon. This is complicated for him. He loves her. He disapproves strongly of what she’s doing. He lusts after her. He fears her. She feels his ambivalence. ‘It disgusts you,’ Dany says. ‘Dany…’ Jon begins and trails off.

The scene continues as we saw it, with Dany’s expression hardening and the doomed “let it be fear” line. The difference may seem insignificant, and much of this isn’t even dialogue but stage direction that couldn’t have made it into the episode anyway–except in the actors’ performance, which I would argue it was. And yet, it’s true that the script is more explicit about what the characters are thinking and feeling, and that going only by the scripts fewer people would have been shocked by Dany’s final moments.

Is this explicit text better than the subtext or acting open to interpretation of the show? Or is this merely about clarity? And which scenes do you prefer; the script’s or the show’s versions? Good questions, if I say so myself. You have the answers, I hope, and will deposit them–politely, avoiding flame wars– in the comments section.

If you wish to read about the many other differences between the scripts and the final episodes in great detail, please read Kim Renfro’s wonderful piece at Insider.

320 responses

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    1. “As for who else he can envision in the throne, it appears the wolves stick together still: “It would have to be another Stark I think, Sansa or someone.” The pack survives, indeed.”

      Someone? How about No One.

      #ASNAWP 👸🏻🗡

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    2. Should have kept the scenes/lines in – doesn’t sound like it would have taken an inordinate amount of time, and would have made the journey to the end a bit more clear. 🙂 C’est la vie.

      I love Emilia, she always puts such a positive soul out there to the world. Are people still banging on about supposed feuds, etc? Lord. I disliked a fair number of aspects of Season 8, but can’t say I ever figured that cast or crew would have the time or reason to take anything so deeply personally about fiction. Oy.

      Some people are just talkers, I suppose. *looks around for Sandor*

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    3. I’ll be sad, angry, disgusted, and disappointed about the ending (especially Daenerys’ treatment) forever.
      No, I don’t think her feeling lonely or missing GW+Missy would somehow turn her against Westeros. (`)_(`) MAYBE if we’d seen her witnessing some horrific treatment of them or other people she’d brought along who’d helped to save everybody by racist Westerosi or something. Maybe then I could kind of accept some version of this ending. I don’t know.
      And Isaac’s pick=gag!
      *”Ridden,” Tyrion. Probably should’ve left that stuff in, sure; why not? It isn’t as if the season were too long…-_- I pretty much did get the sense that Jon disapproved of incest, though, yeah.

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    4. Ten Bears:
      “As for who else he can envision in the throne, it appears the wolves stick together still: “It would have to be another Stark I think, Sansa or someone.” The pack survives, indeed.”

      Someone? How about No One.

      #ASNAWP 👸🏻🗡

      “STOP IT! YOU’RE RUINING EVERYTHING!!!” *stomp* 🤪

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    5. Daenerys was such a strong character, that when they brought her down, she took the entire show down with her. All the other surviving characters couldn’t fill the whole she left behind.
      As for the incest….. there’s no such thing in Westeros. Only the Faith considered “abominations” brother-sister, mother-son, father-daughter relationships. Nothing else and no one else.
      P.S. How the hell did Arya and the Hound riding on horseback arrive in King’s Landing later than an army on foot? And no, this is not a minor thing. It’s Huge!

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    6. The explicit text is indeed a bit better, but to be honest, even with those scenes in it, Dany’s revenge on KL would still have come across as ridiculous without addition of at least another episode to make the transition more believable. To have a well-reasoned version, we will have to wait for the books, which sadly will never get published.

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    7. “and that going only by the scripts fewer people would have been shocked by Dany’s final moments”

      True, but Benioff and Weiss overestimated the intelligence of their audience. When something is not explicitly stated trough dialogue they are lost. And especially when character says one thing but thinks and does something else.

      In order for audience to understand the story characters need to talk, think and behave in tune.

      I guess House of Cards style of storytelling where character is directly talking to the audience would help.

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    8. “Then again, if I know the ways of online fandom–and I think I do–this sadly won’t dissuade any believers, and so the battle between actor and showrunners will continue unabated in their minds.”

      Bingo, because fandoms don’t care about facts. They don’t care about intent. They don’t care about how the actual people whose thoughts they implant in their own minds feel about it. Fandoms are out to dictate reality. Fandoms are the worst part of loving something.

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    9. Those stage directions confirm my understanding of Jon’s withdrawal from Daenerys.
      “He loves her. He disapproves strongly of what she’s doing. He lusts after her. He fears her.”
      I’ve never thought that the incest angle played any great part in his feelings, and the script doesn’t show him responding to her suggestion that it does.

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    10. Unlike others I believe Emilia is a very good actress and this is obvious in the later seasons. She’s the joy of life, a happy person, always laughing, I know she’s been through things very, very tough that could break the toughest and strongest people. She’s been through all that and yet she’s still as sunshiny as she is. I wish her all the best, I really want to see her in more movies in the future.

      But Emilia, dear, didn’t you take the Nazi visuals into consideration before sympathising with your character that much? It was already very explicit in season 5 (or was it 4? when she establishes in Meereen?) and more so in season 6, and some very disturbing dialogs came along since season 2. It would have saved you from grieving so much about the mother of dragons. And didn’t you study Hitler’s speeches for that speech in 6.9? What did you think that was for? Did you think that the Dothraki would come to Westeros with flowers instead of arakhs?

      It’s perhaps more D&D’s fault, who may well have put the visual clues there but failed to deliver Daenerys’ flirt with the dark side in the previous sesons. How do you suddenly make a cruel dictator out of such a sweet person as Emilia is without the underlying proper scripts that would bring out Daenerys’ love of violence? Perhaps that’s what was missing in the previous seasons (even though it’s not completely lacking), and it’s not just that they underestimated their audience’s intelligence, as Mau says. After all, Nazi visuals and style are part of European history and people do have a right to want to see a straight-up hero as a good guy. It appears that portraying the hero as a savior and liberator without the excursus that accompanies her actions and suddenly pulling the rug from underneath her feet in the season finale just won’t cut it. D&D chose to invest on building Dany as a savior instead of a dictator in the making with increasing power of mass destruction as her dragons grow while all along they sidelined her main antagonist, Jon Snow; they made her final fall not about power, not about a political conflict, but about “isolation” and “loneliness” and it fell flat because it wasn’t convincing. One would expect that a woman with dragons wouldn’t really care about losing the affections of the fantastic boyfriend; after all, for eight seasons her goal was the throne.
      Please excuse me but I don’t think that this narrative choice has anything to do with Daenerys’ book downfall. It won’t be about the fantastic boyfriend. Martin discusses thrones, countries and power, not love relationships in the 7th pink cloud.
      So no, in the end I don’t think that putting those extra scenes would have made any difference. Jon Snow doesn’t want to continue the incest. We already got that as it is. That’s not what was lacking.

      Isaac: thank you for confirming what we all have been talking about.
      This may well be Martin’s ending, but tampered with by the producers because they chose a particular story to tell in season 8. By pinpointing it to Daenerys’ fate, the audience narrows down their overall discontent for a story that was badly narrated. Acting, visuals and directing were excellent, but they won’t make up for what’s missing.

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    11. Will we ever get all the scripts from seasons 1-8 published in a book someday? I would love to read them. I emailed HBO and never got a response (no surprises there). It’d be a pretty huge book, but I’d be up for it!

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    12. Pigeon: I love Emilia, she always puts such a positive soul out there to the world. Are people still banging on about supposed feuds, etc? Lord. I disliked a fair number of aspects of Season 8, but can’t say I ever figured that cast or crew would have the time or reason to take anything so deeply personally about fiction. Oy.

      Some people are just talkers, I suppose. *looks around for Sandor*

      Absolutely!

      I’ve found some of the imagined feuds Luka mentions here on the sillier side. I’ve not been shy about my problems with season 8 but I think some sects of the fandom have taken it a bit far, reading what they want to read into things re: the actors. I’ve seen some fandoms turn a bit silly (Harry Potter), which seems to coordinate with the amount of passion the fandom has for the media in question.

      And I think EC put this is a really nicely-worded way.

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    13. I don’t think these lines would have made much of a difference, they had 6 episodes and that was always going to be a problem. Plus, I don’t think anyone really wanted to see a character with her backstory brought down like this, people just didn’t want it, I think it will be seeded better in the books (it already is) but plenty of people will always hate it and that is fair enough.

      We should have left S7 saying ‘I’m worried about Dany’, but we didn’t. They really should have hammered it home in S7 when she lost Viserion. When I say ‘we’ I mean the general audience, because I was off the Dany hype train after the crucifixion and never thought she would be Queen, she was a conquerer in my mind and was on the 100% dead list along with Cersei, Jaime and Theon. Jon was actually on my dead list, so I was shocked about that.

      I think Emilia herself explains it best, particularly the final paragraph. The 1st and 2nd paragraphs highlight the issue with her character in the earlier seasons. I really didn’t see her this way in the books, and so I didn’t feel this way about her in the show, but for those that did, S8 must have been rough.

      I read these scripts coming on to two years ago now. When I did, I took a very long walk around London in a daze, not quite knowing how to digest the news. Now, finally, people are going, “Oh, now we understand why this season hit you hard.” I had no idea what to expect for this last season. I hoped for some juicy things to get into, as I always do for each season, but I didn’t see this coming. Throughout the show, there have been these glorious moments of Daenerys taking on a very strong role in a battle or in a decision to be made. There were these wonderful moments when she takes control, and it’s really liberating and beautiful. She frees people, she kills the baddies, and it feels good.

      And, I must admit, I was sitting tentatively on that chair thinking, How long is this going to last? Everyone was saying, “Isn’t she great? She’s our saviour, Mhysa.” It’s been beautiful and amazing, but I’ve been looking over my shoulder the entire time while everyone else gets a more human—for want of a better word—story line. They do good things. They do bad things. They do silly things. They do brilliant things. They fall in love. They break hearts. Daenerys has quite consistently had this road to salvation, and she’s been sitting atop a very safe mountain.

      I remember the boys—our writers and showrunners—telling me that Daenerys’s arc is that of Lawrence of Arabia. I watched “Lawrence of Arabia,” and I was, like, “Great, cool. He’s brilliant. He survived, and it’s wonderful.” But then you remember how that movie ended, with Lawrence’s disintegration. I didn’t quite put those two things together. Or maybe I didn’t want to see it coming because I care about Daenerys too much.

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    14. Che: Will we ever get all the scripts from seasons 1-8 published in a book someday? I would love to read them. I emailed HBO and never got a response (no surprises there). It’d be a pretty huge book, but I’d be up for it!

      I heard they’re coming up with a photo book in November, one I’m eyeing (especially when doing a cross-comparison between that and my bank account 💸), as I heard it may feature unreleased stills from deleted scenes 🙂 (But don’t take my word for this, I’m not certain, just rumors I came across online!)

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    15. Dany has a scene in the books I read yesterday with Daario that I think foreshadows where things will go for her. She is super infatuated with Daario in the books (much more than the show). Daario has a similar scene to one in the show where he tells her that she should just kill all the masters and be done with it. In the books he gives her a decent plan on luring the masters into Meereen and then he would kill them all for her. Dany thinks that he is monster to think such things and doesn’t see herself as a “monster”. It really seemed like GRRM was hinting that this was going to change and Dany very well may become the monster. I could be reading too much into it, but that’s what I thought when reading the scene.

      I’ve already given my thoughts about season 7/8 and Dany’s arc. I won’t go into it all again right now…

      One more comment about my current book journey. I feel super bogged down with Dany’s story at the moment. It seems like everyone and his brother is sailing to Meereen to try to marry her. Geesh…In the shows it was very much abbreviated and I appreciate D&D’s decisions on this one. I was thinking yesterday…”Where are the Starks, and I just don’t care about Meereen anymore…”. Maybe this will change once I get a little further and this is all build up… but maybe this is one of the issues people had with the book. Part of the issue is that I was never crazy about Dany’s story in the show either. I was always more drawn to the Starks, Jaime, and Brienne. I’ve been hoping to get to the next Bran chapter…There’s only one or two more….it’s been quite awhile since anyone mentioned the White Walkers or the others… Anyway…I hope things change…

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    16. Per usual, these additions would have been nice to have, but their exclusion doesn’t take away my enjoyment of the final season or change my opinion in the slightest. I knew Jon’s relation to Danerys was the reason he kept pulling away from her. I thought it was rather obvious, but apparently it wasn’t.

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    17. Tron79,

      And this is why I prefer AFFC, I feel like the only person who does lol. Every other chapter of hers is good I think, then you get a dud. Meereen is where I hit a brick wall with her character every time. Dany mooning over Daaria is hard to read, but then you remember she is only like 15 at this point? Crazy to think about their ages. I like the stories of everyone else around Meereen (except for one I won’t mention in case you haven’t met him). I hope you will be rewarded by an Arya chapter soon, have you seen much of Tyrion yet?

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    18. Iul,

      Danerys was a strong character, but she wasn’t the only one. The last several scenes after her death held up fine without her.

      Incest was always considered an abomination in the show. It was painted in a very bad light.

      Iul:
      P.S. How the hell did Arya and the Hound riding on horseback arrive in King’s Landing later than an army on foot? And no, this is not a minor thing. It’s Huge!

      This is a perfect example of a nit pick. It’s not a Huge criticism, it is very minor, as it doesn’t change the outcome in the slightest.

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    19. Jenny:
      Tron79,

      And this is why I prefer AFFC, I feel like the only person who does lol.Every other chapter of hers is good I think, then you get a dud.Meereen is where I hit a brick wall with her character every time.Dany mooning over Daaria is hard to read, but then you remember she is only like 15 at this point?Crazy to think about their ages.I like the stories of everyone else around Meereen (except for one I won’t mention in case you haven’t met him).I hope you will be rewarded by an Arya chapter soon, have you seen much of Tyrion yet?

      Yes, Tyion just intersected with the show where Jorah kidnaps him in the brothel. I don’t think that’s a spoiler since it happened in the show too, but I was wondering if that was going to happen in the books cuz alot more happens on his trip to see Dany in the books. There’s been plenty of Tyrion… I think I have one more chapter in ADWD and then I’m back into AFFC. It’s funny. I had the same thought as you! I was hoping to get back to AFFC soon! I had a bunch of chapters in a row in ADWD. I’m still pretty far away from Arya. I’m hoping for some quiet time Monday and Tuesday afternoon to get get in another couple hundred pages and maybe I will get out of my current funk….. I find myself wanting to live in other stories (like Brienne who is back in AFFC, and of course Arya!, but she does have a couple chapters in ADWD too).

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    20. Jenny,

      I sort of got the darker Dany we were seeing, esp after burning up the Lanisters and the Tarlys in season 7. But I never thought that it was loneliness that caused her to completely go to the dark side. I thought it was the idea that after knowing all her life (well, esp after her brother was killed) she was meant to rule the seven kingdoms, there was no one cheering for her, no one backing her. And then finding out that her lover actually out ranks her and is heir to the throne. If anything was going to bring her down, it was this.

      I like Emilia a lot and really feel for her. I can’t imagine being able to act after having read the script. Wonder if she thought about quitting, what they would have done, if they would have made any changes. The fans were brutal to D&D, but really brutal to the actors. I know Sophia and other actors struggled with this; This wasn’t Emilia’s fault and I hope she realizes this.

      I enjoyed reading the Insider article. I have many other questions, but the biggest one is King Bran. I get that George said that Bran would be king, but there was no lead in for this. Isaac missed a whole season; so much could have been done with him at that time; his training compared with Arya’s training, some scenes of him using his powers, something besides ‘has the best stories’ that might have given a hint The only hint was Tyrion saying ‘I think we will live’, after his conversation with Bran. Which suggests that Bran knew what was going to happen and did nothing to stop it.

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    21. Iul,

      ”P.S. How the hell did Arya and the Hound riding on horseback arrive in King’s Landing later than an army on foot? And no, this is not a minor thing. It’s Huge!”

      Because of course Arya and Sandor got into adventures on the way. Or maybe they took the long way ‘round.*

      *Obscure Dr. Who reference.

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    22. Thank you Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss for a marvelous and magnificent 8 seasons and a brilliant finale. I’ll always be grateful 🙂

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    23. Jenny,

      I also like AFFC more. In ADWD all 3 major characters(Jon, Dany and Tyrion have not that strong storylines). In AFFC Jaime and Cersei are main storylines and they are both really great.

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    24. Jenny:
      Plus, I don’t think anyone really wanted to see a character with her backstory brought down like this, people just didn’t want it,

      I think this is true. I don’t see a way where you can write a popular ending where one main character kills the other.

      Jon and Daenerys were the most popular GoT characters. To have him kill her in the end would never be popular direction.

      There is a reason why Breaking Bad never really had Hank vs Walter or Jesse vs Walter at the end. Even if that was natural climax of that story IMO. Because it would be controversial to create conflict between the most popular characters. Instead they created Nazis lol.

      That’s why they brought Palpatine in Star Wars Episode IX. Because they know conflict between Kylo Ren and Rey would be controversial. Even if Kylo is villain since the beginning.

      So, GoT was really brave in what they did and I appreciate that.

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    25. Jack Bauer 24,

      I have to ask, and I’m sorry if this is rude, but do you read the articles you comment on? Because you don’t seem to respond to what is written.

      mau,

      It’s a difficult thing to pull off, and when you have a character that A) Started out as prisoner and B) Gets killed by her lover. You are going to get strong reactions to that, especially in 2019. People latched on to Dany because of her rise to power, it was empowering to a lot of people (including Emilia) and they were always going to hate it, especially when everyone was conspiring against her with little justification in S8.

      She was often presented in a positive way in the show, and she was on all of the posters and merchandise. Maybe the writers aren’t responsible for that reaction but I think they have to be sensitive about it. Perhaps they needed to be heavy handed in the earlier seasons, because the things that raised red flags for us, were explained away by everyone else. It might be spoon feeding the audience, but I think it might have been necessary to ease people into it. Like Emilia said, it was there, she just didn’t want to see it. I think that’s what the Tarly’s were about it S7, and we needed more of that, more violence against people who weren’t complete trash. But then of course she went and did something utterly selfless and rescued Jon, so it almost washed the unease away.

      For all of my Dany criticisms, I ended up liking her in the end, because everyone around her was a waste of time. That surprised me more than anything, and I’m not sure that that was the intent behind it. She’s there with Nazi imagery all around her and I thought, ‘wow, your team sucks Dany and they didn’t deserve you’. Especially when D&D came out and said that it might never have happened without this specific set of circumstances, it felt like her downfall was orchestrated. I find my own reaction bizarre tbh.

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    26. mau,

      Oh wow, that makes us a club of 2 lol. Jaime/Cersei/Brienne is where its at for me. I do like Jon in ADWD, and some stuff around Meereen is interesting, but that’s it really.

      Tron79,

      Ok, so I think I can say something about Tyrion now. I will spoiler it just in case, it’s about his brush with greyscale.

      He comes into contact with the stone men, and has to keep checking his fingers and toes, as if he has leprosy. Nobody will share food with him, just in case they catch it, and the first thing he does when he gets off the ship, is find a brothel, did they know about STD’s and the like back then? They must have, because Tarly was handing out lye soap, f*ck you Tyrion, f*ck you.

      /rant.

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    27. Jenny,

      There were points where I thought Dany might be going down a dark path but by season 6, it no longer seemed like it because I didn’t think there was enough time. Season 7 rolled around and again, Dany seemed to be behaving quite rationally and she did rescue Jon’s party. Sure, Dany really wanted the throne, I anticipated her and Jon disagreeing on various methods (sometimes strongly), I anticipated her clashing with Sansa on what to do with the North (also, sometimes strongly), but Dany never seemed mad, delusional, or irrational at all until her Face Heel Turn in 805, which felt… unprecedented.

      If Dany had to kill her way through Cersei’s people-shield, at least there’d be a reason as it would be to take the throne. She wouldn’t be committing democide on a surrendered city for one of the shifting reasons given as motivation (the site of the Red Keep triggers her, then she believes death and destruction are the new “liberation”, she views mercy as a weakness, she wants to purge the world to build it anew). Cutting her way through Cersei’s people-shield would be ruthless but it’d be a legitimate form of conquering and Dany wouldn’t suddenly be declaring her intentions to lay waste to the entire world to unite under her rule. Nobody would have any reason to urge Jon to kill her.

      Those are my main problems with Dany’s downfall. I’ll never like the idea but it didn’t seem built up enough.

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    28. Tron79,

      Ok, so I think I can say something about Tyrion now.I will spoiler it just in case, it’s about his brush with greyscale.

      /rant.

      Yes…

      Yep, I was surprised that he got touched and doesn’t have it (yet).
      He is meaner in the books to prostitutes. It always seemed like he cared about them in the show (until he strangled Shae….ugg..)…but in the books he doesn’t care at all in the brothel before Jorah takes him. He was awful to the red haired girl (I think that was the scene). And yes, he didn’t care that he might give her greyscale if he thought he might have it… ugg again..

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    29. Tron79,

      I remember reading some of Tyrion’s chapters and having to flip back several pages to reread what I wrote because his story certainly took a dark… turn… From “cripples, bastards and broken things,” befriending and advising Jon, designing a saddle for Bran so he could ride in his crippled state, to… this…

      Maybe I just suck at anticipating dark turns.

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    30. Although, I too, was a bit stunned at Daenerys’ end. For me, even in my disappointment, it fit. We have seen the hard side of Daenerys several times throughout the seasons: when she cooly witnesses her brother’s awful demise (we might have felt differently if we didn’t hate him so much), her burning of the Dothraki when they opposed her, the people she crucified … She is, after all, the Dragon Queen. I see two sides to her and either side (the overly sweet side that loved being adored and the spiteful side that cannot be questioned) is not healthy. Maybe we wanted to ignore some of the warnings and hold onto her kindness, but there are bread crumbs all along the way.

      As to Bran the Broken, George R.R. Martin said that he has always intended for Bran to be King. Based on the show, my heart wanted it to be Tyrion, but I can see the fault in my thinking. We see Bran being groomed throughout the seasons to be king. And truly, I am fine with that ending for him. It makes perfect sense.

      I love Emelia as an actress and she and Kit did a terrific job since we love both their characters, flaws and all.

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    31. Jenny,

      But the strength of her character was that ambiguity. If you turn her into pure villain in S6 you will loose that.

      Since GoT was on MCU/Star Wars level of popularity I think a lot of people wanted the show to tell them what to think about the characters and their actions. Why they needed to ease people into it? So their feeling won’t get hurt? Why would’t the show trick the audience into cheering for her? I find that really interesting.

      It’s like when someone commits mass shooting. It’s a huge shock, but when you look back it’s unbelievable how no one around that person saw it coming.

      Yes, Daenerys freed slaves, but she wanted to burn Astapor and Yunkai. She fought against the Night King and she burned KL. She killed people in the most brutal way, but she served as inspiration for millions. She gave new life and purpose to Tyrion, but she treated Hizdahr like a POS, after she killed his father.

      What is her legacy? It’s complicated. What is legacy of Julius Caesar? Is he a hero or a tyrant? It’s complicated. Life is complicated and stories should be as well.

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    32. Tron79,

      I was hopping mad over it, it makes you wonder, how is he going to come back from this? Will he? I found his chapters really difficult at times. This isn’t a spoiler since we don’t know, but I don’t think Tyrion will be preaching to Dany about Fire and Blood anytime soon. They should have given him a spade in the last episode and put him on clean up duty.

      Adrianacandle,

      I’m no Dany fan, and haven’t been for years (interesting character of course). I was always pointing out her questionable decisions and I had to go and read the essays to confirm that I wasn’t totally off base. And yet, I agree with you completely, I was actively looking for her turn, and I still don’t think they did enough to lay the ground work.

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    33. Great reddit post:

      Essentially, Daenerys was a human being like any other, which meant that she was as capable of slipping into authoritarian mode as she was capable of slipping into liberal mode, and vice versa. The moment she burned King’s Landing to the ground was just one of her many displays of authoritarianism – it just so happened to be her final major act and thus defined her legacy.

      Trying to read Daenerys’ story as a familiar “progression” – as though her arc tells the story of someone who went from being a compassionate ruler to someone “capable of such villainy” in the blink of an eye – is a mistake on her fans’ part. Not only does it ignore the lessons we can take from her journey, but also the storytelling methods of the show.

      There’s a reason why the description of most Targaryens’ nature is constantly related to a coin toss – it (and by extension, Dany) can land on any side at any moment because of a range of factors. As you’ve said, her ideals were the very definition of the “human heart in conflict”. Ruling and breaking the wheel don’t go hand in hand with fairness.

      The closer she got to seizing the Iron Throne, and the more her ruling Westeros became a possibility, the more paranoid she became about losing it. She made enemies of potential allies and her advisers, she stopped seeing common people and started seeing disloyal subjects. And then she was all alone, on top of that dragon with the world in her hands, hearing the people she wished to rule crying out in fear rather than celebration.

      In that moment she was as capable of climbing down from Drogon as she was capable of committing genocide. She chose the latter. Her actions don’t render her “arc” a mess and it wan’t a “betrayal” of her character. In that brief lull while the bells were ringing, the universe tossed a coin and the world held its breath – the coin just landed on the wrong side. As you said, her goals were never properly defined, so they could shift at a moment’s notice.

      I love Daenerys as a character. Not because I worshipped her or projected myself onto her as the show progressed (like so many viewers seemed to, ahem) but because throughout her entire journey the lessons the show taught us were present in almost everything she did. She’s one of the most complex and fascinating characters I’ve ever come across in all my years of watching TV and movies, and she will always be fascinating.

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    34. Emilia has always had a strong relationship with David and Dan – they’ve had nothing but glowing things to say about her, and she’s always talked about how not only how grateful she was that they took a chance on her with this role, but how great they are to work for. (I still remember that delightful Instagram photo where they dressed up for her birthday on set). Glad to hear her speaking up for them, as listening to disgruntled people trying to pit them against one another has annoyed me to no end. Indeed, that extends to the entire cast, all of whom clearly deeply respect Dan and Dave. For a show that ran 8 seasons over the course of the decade with the largest cast in history and for pretty much all of those cast members to come away from the experience with nothing but positive things to say about the showrunners tells you something about what kind of operation they ran (obviously you can find exceptions if you dig deep enough – see Ian McElhinney, who was understandably upset about his character being killed off sooner than he thought he should be, but the larger point stands).

      I’d never considered the “Lawrence of Arabia” comparison for Dany’s arc before, but thinking about it now, it actually does track pretty well. I’ll have to keep it in mind for the next time I rewatch that movie (which I should do soon – it’s one of my favorites, and it’s been too long).

      Speaking of rewatches, I just rewatched Season 8 yet again last week, and Dany’s tragic fall still works beautifully for me. I love her character, and the more I think about it, the more perfect her ending feels to me, heartbreaking though it may be. The positive legacy that she left behind endures.

      mau,

      I absolutely agree with this. And it’s all the more true because George devised this ending back in the early 90’s, which was a very different time. It was always going to be a subversive idea, but it feels particularly charged now.

      I have wondered what the reaction to be if the relationship between Rey and Kylo Ren ends similarly in Episode IX, with two of the three biggest pop culture phenomenons in the world (the MCU being the third) ending with one party in the story’s central “romance” killing the other (obviously ‘Reylo’ isn’t officially a romance yet, but it’s certainly been teased in the films, and a large number of people are clearly passionate about it). I expect it would be less contentious in the public discourse because it would almost certainly be Rey killing Kylo in that scenario, which is a FAR less subversive choice than the alternative (the ‘good’ female character killing the ‘evil’ male character avoids many of the fraught social complications that come with the ‘good’ male character killing the ‘evil’ female character).

      Ultimately, however, this question is likely to go unanswered, as I agree that bringing Palpatine back into the story serves the narrative function of giving the story a purely evil villain that they can both strive against, thereby allowing Ben Solo to be redeemed without sapping all of the conflict out of the movie.

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    35. Jenny,

      “I think that’s what the Tarly’s were about it S7, and we needed more of that, more violence against people who weren’t complete trash.”

      I think there’s some validity to the criticism about racist undertones as regards Essos. In the books, and especially in her Meereen chapters, it’s not just about Daenerys turning against people who are “trash”, it’s about her inability to understand a culture unknown to her, its inner workings and balances that are closely connected to the social stratification of the city and the delicate political balances that pre-existed and she overturned by her actions. Meereen and Essos is not just a bunch of bad guys that deserve to be put to death (whatever that means), it’s an entire civilization.
      In the show they portrayed the slavemasters as oriental caricatures (ew!) practicing slavery for their own pleasure and fan, reproducing some of the earlier clichees the western world had about the “barbarian” East.
      But slavery is not a matter of preference; it’s not like I can enslave someone, so I do it, and therefore I’m a bad person because I chose to do it. Slavery has always been an economic and political system and people living in it had their own understanding of it which in some cases can be characterized even as a code of honor. The entire antiquity and medieval times built its social stratification on the bipolar free man/slave.
      In the show, Tyrion tried to promote this issue to the forefront of Daenerys’ policy, but it was undercut inside the same narrative by making Daenerys’ opponents look like cartoon villains. It was contradictive and judging from the outcome it didn’t work because in the end no matter what Tyrion said about the system, no matter the discussion about the “wheel” Daenerys’ resolve to violence was justified.

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    36. Sidenote: that ending to Tyrion’s handling with the lords of Ghys at Meereen always bothered me; he lets in the slave women to please the ambassadors and says something on the lines of “see what another approach can offer you first”, meaning that he bought out those services for them from the -now- free people of the city.
      I apologize to everybody in this thread for the rant, but the idea that each and every slave existed for the personal sexual pleasure of his/her master is total crap. There were particular places where one could go and find whore-slaves, but not every slave in a houshold was prey to his/her master’s instincts of the hour because it was against the principles that hold families/households together.
      On the contrary, it is economic oppression that led to the sexual exploitation of people at the other side of the social ladder, meaning, what Tyrion does is actually much worse and lacks any moral justification.
      While a slave can find a shelter in a home, have a plate filled with food everyday and some protection from life’s misfortunes in antique or medieval times, a free person that was too poor was always exposed and unprotected from guys like Tyrion. (as Tyrion himself often does during his journey to Daenerys).

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    37. “I remember the boys—our writers and showrunners—telling me that Daenerys’s arc is that of Lawrence of Arabia. I watched “Lawrence of Arabia,” and I was, like, “Great, cool. He’s brilliant. He survived, and it’s wonderful.” But then you remember how that movie ended, with Lawrence’s disintegration. I didn’t quite put those two things together. Or maybe I didn’t want to see it coming because I care about Daenerys too much.”

      Emilia dear, if they gave you Lawrence of Arabia as a model while all along they were telling you to study how tyrants speak in their speeches, no wonder it was so perplexing for you and for the audience. It’s not your fault; it’s not the audience’s fault either.

      Lawrence of Arabia is one of my favorite movies ever made (I’ve watched it more than 10 times, it’s an old movie with Peter O’Tool and Omar Sarif but anyone who hasn’t seen it should take the trouble to do it). Lawrence was an archaeologist and Orientalist, speaking Arabic fluently; he understood deeply the oriental cultures and the Arab in particular. He worked for the liberation of the Arabs from the Turks during WW I. The British Empire used him, used his talents, and then dumped him, as was expected (of course he was honored as he should have been, promoted, awarded medals etc but they wouldn’t allow him to take an active part in the final negotiations that led to the Lausanne Treaty).

      I fail to see the parallels. If that was their take of Daenerys, it was wrong from the beginning.

      PS. To anyone who might be interested I also recommend his autobiography, The Seven Pillars of Wisdom.

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    38. Efi,

      Yes, I think these are issues with the books too, some things remind you that they were conceived in the 90’s. That being said, the books do at least delve into the repercussions of her actions. I think they may have touched on it in the show, but Yunkai and Astapor were taken over by potentially worse people after she left, and Meereen was decimated by disease. Her desire to end slavery over night led to a whole host of problems (including the Sons of the Harpy rebellion). It bothered me that they put the blame on Tyrion in the show, you’ve got Dany in charge and a golden opportunity to show her in a less that positive light, and they shifted it on to Tyrion instead. She was incensed by the state of things when she returned, but it was her fault. Obviously ending slavery is a good thing, I’m not going around defending slavers here, but as you said, it’s the established order of things and it takes time to change it, if they had shown children dying of the flux, perhaps that would have made people appreciate it more.

      Whenever her actions in Essos get brought up, people defend her by saying ‘they are slavers, who cares?’ and it’s difficult to argue against that because, they are slavers, so I don’t do it. But, I personally think the crucifixion was the single most brutal act in the whole show, to find something comparable, you have to look at the Red Wedding or Ramsey Bolton. Different motives obviously, because the crucifixion was a punishment, but still, I was not Ok with it. I thought then that her brand of justice wouldn’t fly in Westeros, unfortunately we only saw it once with the Tarlys. She was incredibly reasonable in S7, in the face of the worst tactical advice ever given. In S7, I started to feel that she was just being set up to fail through their incompetence, not her own character flaws.

      I totally include Randyll in my definition of trash people (omg I hate him with a passion), she should have killed Bronn or Jaime instead, in front of Tyrion. That would have upset a few people.

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    39. Lul, Tar Kidho, Jenny, Adrianacandle…you got it.
      Just throwing such a truly iconic, beautiful character directly under the bus in the last few episodes, killing her off, and neglecting to mention her again…quelle atrocity…but the same stinking conversation about her is unbearable at this point, I’ve been engaging in it at WiC with a brilliant person for the past week and a half. Dx But all along, she’d killed or wanted to kill undeniably evil people in fitting/deserved ways. Often it was those who wished to continue their practice of owning and abusing fellow humans in perpetuity. The crucified masters had (with what, one exception who thought it was a crummy idea?) crucified slave children, and how does “an eye for an eye” not totally fly here? Breaking the wheel meant abolishing corruption and ushering in an era of fairness, peace, and prosperity for all, rather than only the privileged few. She knew extremely well that the people of Westeros weren’t waiting for her as a savior, and that she’d need to earn their love. She wanted to prove worthy of the allegiance of all who followed her, and doing a pretty incredible job of that. Her reaction to Viserys’ death, her burning of those khals–I can’t imagine anything preferable for her to have done in such situations. She didn’t murder innocents or kill for no defensible reason until the very end…

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    40. I liked the ending. So there.

      Every character had to have an ending with every other character; a nearly-impossible task to start with, then you get yappy jerks with their “if *I* wrote it” dreams of failed novelist-hood whining about it.

      Do I wish some characters had different resolutions? Sure, I do. But it’s not my story.
      Was I shocked and disappointed that Dany “went bad?” Hell no. She was bad all along.

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    41. It’s truly incredible how little Emilia knew about her character – or rather, how she turned a blind eye to her darker self.
      But D&D preferred to present Daenerys as a protagonist, and contrary to the Starks who were not allowed to care about each other in s8 (if they were she would’ve been dead after the NK went down), Dany always got to talk about her feelings so the audience automatically felt for her.
      Any other character was treated as an antagonist or a minor character (Varys, Sansa, Jon), even though they were in the right. They never presented Daenerys as the evil protagonist she is (even making Jon condone her genocide ffs!), which is why her end felt disjointed and slapt on.

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    42. mau,

      Actually, the audience is absolutely aware of the events that happen in Game of Thrones, and the living example of that is the ever-growing audience after each season.

      The problem you confuse is not the fact, that the script was well-written, thus “mysterious” or “unpredictable” – on contrary, it was confusing, there was no “cause and effect”, and obviously many, many more. There are thousands of objective videos on Youtube that actually explain what went wrong, both from the storyline point of view, but also cinematographic one.

      I went off for like 2 months from that site, and it astonishes me that the same people still keep thinking, that it was the mentally limited audience and some sort of viewers-conspiracy that lead to such negative reception, rather than the failure to capture the closure of the show in just 6 feature-length episodes made in a Hollywoodish style. It was doomed to failure, and it began in season 7, when they departured from witty jokes, character development, intrigues and building relations between characters for the sake of cinema-worth action. Best example: Euron. A character absolutely ripped out of a mystery, charisma, fear spreading warlord. They had a chance to change in the last season, they didn’t. They just went down the path of uncreative, obscure and primitive jokes, and a goal of “fu**ing the Queen”. This is purely ridiculous. Even Pilou Asbæk expressed his displeasure of the direction for that character.

      It also has barely anything to do with writers who didn’t meet audiences expectations, as there were 1000s of theories, so you they could’ve write 1000 more on their own. Funnily enough, this season was absultely the MOST predictable and generic of all. When it comes to the said expectations – of the last season, I expected more 🙂

      You can like it, or not. But don’t presume that the audience is dumb to the level of being incompetent to even understand a simplified version of Daenerys downfall…
      it’s always good to get out of the safety-bubble and be at least honest enough to deal with criticism properly and substantively. I

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    43. Jenny:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      I have to ask, and I’m sorry if this is rude, but do you read the articles you comment on? Because you don’t seem to respond to what is written.

      Fairly sure that Jack has his undying devotion and gratitude to D&D stuck in copy/paste mode whether it relates to the articles or not, in the secret hopes of scoring a role as an extra in the prequel (or Star Wars franchise, more likely, as that’s what they’re working on now). 🤪

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    44. Adam,

      Audience is mostly childish and immature when they don’t get what they want. We already saw that with The Last Jedi. Criticism is reduced to insults against Rian Johnson and Benioff and Weiss.

      I don’t know if audience is dumb, most probably are, but from my experience in GoT, Star Wars, Harry Potter (and so on) fandoms, people mostly don’t get things if it’s not explicitly stated in dialogue.

      And they are also completely blind when it comes to visual storytelling. A lot of people for example wasted their time to determine “origin” of Arya’s horse and did Bran warg into him, instead of realizing symbolism of the scene. Majority is artistically illiterate, they only concentrate on plot and nothing else. I mean there is a reason why “character arc” was in Google Trends in May. Many people just learned what that is last spring.

      You can say whatever you want about S8 but it wasn’t predictable at all. Almost every single plot point that happened wasn’t something that majority of people expected. From Arya killing the Night King, to Jaime going back to Cersei and Jon killing Daenerys to save the world from her.

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    45. Adam,

      Those YouTube videos are not at all objective. They basically all say the exact same thing and I found it incredibly easy to pick them apart. It seems like they were throwing any criticism they could think of at season 8 just to see what stuck.

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    46. I just watched season 8/5 again, and what attracted my attention was the “eye-fight” between Dany and Cersei. Dany sitting on her dragon, waiting for the bells, Cersei on High Keep waiting for what Dany might do. There was cut from face to face, from eyes to eyes. You can see, how their facial expression change, cut after cut. It seemed to me like a fight, a showdown in long range, telepathic or so one could say.
      Of course, it’s my interpretation, but today it seemed to me veryvery clear, why Dany at last burned down everything: she wanted to show Cersei, what she is able to do. But in the same moment she had lost against Cersei, and she knew it. Nothing mattered anymore.

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    47. mau,

      Most of the people predicted Daenerys will die before the series ends. People knew it would be Jon to kill her. True, people didn’t expect Arya to kill The Night King as it’s hard to imagine such uninteresting ending for that character.

      What people expected tho, was definitely more background story for White Walkers… or should I say any?

      Symbolism… well, first of all, that scene stretched the internal logic of the series. Now, let’s look at that this way: Arya stands as the only person living in the scene, after being at the edge of death couple of times. From absolutely nowhere, there is a white horse – a symbol of life, hope, change – she mounts it and rides off the city – for a new adventure/ Arya from that very moment is reborn. She experiences genocide, something that would break even a serial-killer as Arya meant to be. I get it. But at the same time, they could have put a white pigeon that wouldn’t break the logic at all. The scene was totally cringey.

      You call looking for origins of that horse a waste of time – I call it looking for a cinematograhpic consistency. Just because horse symbolises something, it doesn’t mean it has sense or it’s a proper thing to do. And was not.

      People are artistically illiterate? Okay. Then you are looking for art at any cost, even when you need to hang on the logic for a moment to find symbolism in that horse.

      Last week I have seen Joker. I really enjoyed that movie. But what hit me first, same as my friend, is that it was filled with symbolism without breaking any ‘laws of logic’. Every scene had it’s consequences, or the lack of consequences could EASILY be explained. THAT is what I call art. THAT is what I call a concious masterpiece.

      Daenerys looked doomed in episode 5. She had her face and hair not prepared. It symbolised her downfall… without breaking the logic. It’s an easy trick, yet effective and natural. Just look at the people in dispair and you can simply correlate it.

      Nobody expected Jaime to return to his sister. Nobody expected him to live that long after being fatally wounded in combat with Euron. Nobody expected him to die in such cheesy way. Nobody expect him to die IN THE RIGHT SPOT, since there were no bricks around in episode 6 – just exactly where they stood. Nobody expected him to stupidly break the best scene of that season of Jaime knighting Brienne as a symbol of their affection, with a retarded scene of sex (by the way Brienne felt ashemed of her virginity, while in the knight and women ranks it was a VIRTUE and symbol of innocence).

      I could point to many breaking of logic, but you will ignore it anyway, so I finish there tgat unproductive discussion. I just think it’d be great if you left the confirmation bias, and if you truly are into the art, then you should know that symbolism can’t go with the breaking of logic. Well, I mean INTERNAL LOGIC of the art piece. Don’t call people artistically illiterate as you proved yourself ignorant and you tend to be reaching.

      Young Dragon,

      Most probably you chose those which were absolutely outragoues, unjustifably aggressive and highly subjective. But there are dozens of videos showing what went wrong. There are at least two I really liked: from a, guy who writes guide on storytelling and character development and from military guy that showed why the battle for Winterfell was stupid as hell.
      But tothere be fair, I am very sad when it comes to season 8 too. It was BY FAR the weakest season of all. I know it’s a person experience, but I have a friend who was absolutely a superfan of that series, and he got disappointed horribly. He told be that Game of Thrones started as something unique and fresh in medival fantasy, and ended up as a Hollywood movie with a generic, Lord of the Rings finale – so yeah, there’s something about it.

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    48. Adam,

      I’m not really sure what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to change my mind that the show was smarter than it’s audience, you won’t. Because I saw the stupidity of this fandom. It’s on Star Wars level of stupidity and I never thought it was possible.

      And you can’t talk about the confirmation bias, because you have that as well. Or you believe you are “objective”? You are the one to determine what is logical and what is not?

      The fact that you called S8 predictable shows how biased you are. Even biggest GoT haters say that D&D just wanted to subvert expectations and do things for shock value. Attacking this season for predictability doesn’t make much sense to be honest. It was everything but predictable.

      And saying that GoT was “Hollywood movie with a generic, Lord of the Rings finale” is really strange, because I don’t see anything generic about this. It was brave and unconventional. Irony is that big oart of the audience wanted generic finale and they are angry they didn’t get it.

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    49. cos alpha,

      What I find interesting is that Cersei was always defeating her enemys because they underestimated how far she is willing to go. But at the end she was defeated because she underestimated how far Daenerys will go. She throught Daenerys is almost like female Ned Stark, that there is no way she will use dragon agaisnt KL.

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    50. Adrianacandle,

      IIRC, isnt this turn after he finds out that his marrige to Tasha (sp) was a set up? I think thats when he starts up with ‘where do whores go’. just very happy he turned decent in the show

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    51. Karen,

      We see Bran being groomed throughout the seasons to be king. And truly, I am fine with that ending for him. It makes perfect sense.

      Karen, Im at a loss, can you give me some examples of this grooming? Yes he becomes the three eyed raven, but even he doesn’t know exactly what that means

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    52. And one more thing, I’m sure that I could find some military guy that will show why the battle for Hogwarts was stupid as hell. And every battle in GoT. And battles in Star Wars and LOTR and Hobbit.

      I mean this whole idea that there is some military guy that would seriously analyse battle against the Dead is funny. You can’t really use strategy from real life history because there was no Army of the Dead in real life and there is no strategy that works against them because nothing can stop them.

      Battles in fantasy stories are made to be exiting. I’m sure no one was able to do what Legolas did in LOTR, but that’s why we watch fantasy stories. If that breaks your immersion go and watch documentaries.

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    53. ash:
      Adrianacandle,

      IIRC, isnt this turn after he finds out that his marrige to Tasha (sp) was a set up?I think thats when he starts up with ‘where do whores go’.just very happy he turned decent in the show

      It’s something like that but the marriage wasn’t quite a set-up, what Tyrion was told had been a lie. Jaime reveals Tysha’s feelings for Tyrion were genuine and she was no whore. This was a lie Tywin forced Jaime to tell, having convinced Jaime all Tysha wanted was their money.

      Jaime is afraid. “Tell me,” Tyrion said again.

      His brother looked away. “Tysha,” he said softly.

      “Tysha?” His stomach tightened. “What of her?”

      “She was no whore. I never bought her for you. That was a lie that Father commanded me to tell. Tysha was… she was what she seemed to be. A crofter’s daughter, chance met on the road.”  

      Tyrion could hear the faint sound of his own breath whistling hollowly through the scar of his nose. Jaime could not meet his eyes. Tysha. He tried to remember what she had looked like. A girl, she was only a girl, no older than Sansa. “My wife,” he croaked. “She wed me.”

      “For your gold, Father said. She was lowborn, you were a Lannister of Casterly Rock. All she wanted was the gold, which made her no different from a whore, so… so it would not be a lie, not truly, and… he said that you required a sharp lesson. That you would learn from it, and thank me later…”

      “Thank you?” Tyrion’s voice was choked. “He gave her to his guards. A barracks full of guards. He made me… watch.” Aye, and more than watch. I took hertoo… my wife…

      “I never knew he would do that. You must believe me.”

      “Oh, must I,” Tyrion snarled. “Why should I believe you about anything, ever? She was my wife!”

      So Tyrion is furious. When Tyrion confronts Tywin on the toilet, he asks Tywin what he did with Tysha, if he had her killed. Tywin responds:

      “There was no reason for that, she’d learned her place… and had been well paid for her day’s work, I seem to recall. I suppose the steward sent her on her way. I never thought to inquire.”

      “On her way where?”

      “Wherever whores go.”

      Tyrion’s finger clenched. The crossbow whanged just as Lord Tywin started to rise. The bolt slammed into him above the groin and he sat back down with a grunt. The quarrel had sunk deep, right to the fletching. Blood seeped out around the shaft, dripping down into his pubic hair and over his bare thighs. “You shot me,” he said incredulously, his eyes glassy with shock.”

      Tyrion’s fury at Jaime, at Tywin, at everyone is understandable but I really wasn’t anticipating the plunge he ended up taking.

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    54. Efi,

      DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!

      Yes to all of this. I miss GoT so, so terribly, but like Shelle, I’m also grieving over the handling of the story in S7 and S8. This comment perfectly synthesizes my thoughts.

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    55. Jenny: I think these are issues with the books too, some things remind you that they were conceived in the 90’s.

      I saw this comment too a few months ago but in regard to some of the story’s conclusions feeling a bit 90s, which is when I think GRRM planned the endings to his story.

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    56. Efi:
      “I remember the boys—our writers and showrunners—telling me that Daenerys’s arc is that of Lawrence of Arabia. I watched “Lawrence of Arabia,” and I was, like, “Great, cool. He’s brilliant. He survived, and it’s wonderful.” But then you remember how that movie ended, with Lawrence’s disintegration. I didn’t quite put those two things together. Or maybe I didn’t want to see it coming because I care about Daenerys too much.”

      Emilia dear, if they gave you Lawrence of Arabia as a model while all along they were telling you to study how tyrants speak in their speeches, no wonder it was so perplexing for you and for the audience. It’s not your fault; it’s not the audience’s fault either.

      Lawrence of Arabia is one of my favorite movies ever made (I’ve watched it more than 10 times, it’s an old movie with Peter O’Tool and Omar Sarif but anyone who hasn’t seen it should take the trouble to do it). Lawrence was an archaeologist and Orientalist, speaking Arabic fluently; he understood deeply the oriental cultures and the Arab in particular. He worked for the liberation of the Arabs from the Turks during WW I. The British Empire used him, used his talents, and then dumped him, as was expected (of course he was honored as he should have been, promoted, awarded medals etc but they wouldn’t allow him to take an active part in the final negotiations that led to the Lausanne Treaty).

      I fail to see the parallels. If that was their take of Daenerys, it was wrong from the beginning.

      PS. To anyone who might be interested I also recommend his autobiography, The Seven Pillars of Wisdom.

      Never mind Daenerys for a minute.

      Do you really think Lawrence was working for the liberation or well-being of the Arabs? He worked for the British Empire – as an agent. The Arabs fought the Turks in exchange for promises that the British (including Lawrence) knew they had no intention of keeping. (See the Balfour agreement and the Skyes-Picot agreement.) The history of the Middle East is a messy one but a lot of the recent stuff goes back to British decisions in a complicated region with complicated problems.

      Maybe her Daenerys was similar to Lawrence in that she would betray the people that thought that she was saving them.

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    57. Mango: Maybe her Daenerys was similar to Lawrence in that she would betray the people that thought she was saving them.

      In a similar vein to this comment, a thought I’ve had several times in the last few months is that the famously controversial closing scene of Mhysa can now be viewed in a completely different context: Don’t trust the “white savior.” At the time it seemed terribly cringe-worthy and tone-deaf; now… maybe not so much. Daenerys’s eager embrace of that title, and of the adoration of a mass of people without the worldliness, education, or critical-thinking skills to question her motives, now seems quite ominous.

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    58. Whatever Emilia thinks of D&D – the GOT8 story was poorly written and undermined GOT1-4 and GOT 5-7 (to a lesser extent) by delivering a pathetic unworkable end that could not have followed from the story were shown. A disjointed narrative with writers that failed to be true to their audience and true to the story. The fans were upset because they had their time wasted and their emotional investment in the story, violated.

      D&D secured lucrative contracts and will carry on their careers. I am not sure why anyone would care a whit how they felt. Heartbroken, my ass! In most people’s working lives, a display of incompetence like GOT8 would be the end of a career. Instead, these two fabulously rich men will simply go on to do more – of quite possibly the same.

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    59. ash: I sort of got the darker Dany we were seeing, esp after burning up the Lanisters and the Tarlys in season 7. But I never thought that it was loneliness that caused her to completely go to the dark side. I thought it was the idea that after knowing all her life (well, esp after her brother was killed) she was meant to rule the seven kingdoms, there was no one cheering for her, no one backing her. And then finding out that her lover actually out ranks her and is heir to the throne. If anything was going to bring her down, it was this.

      I went a bit farther, besides what you stated and watching her perceived legacy fall in front of her eyes. Her thoughts in book 1, the way she huddled those masters in the dragon dungeon and feeding one to them.
      I gave a slight pass with Visery, but still, her thoughts from the books along with what we had for 8 years didn’t make her ok to rule.

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    60. Young Dragon,

      “Daenerys was a strong character, but she wasn’t the only one. The last several scenes after her death held up fine without her.”

      The scenes after Dany’s death (with the exception of Brianne writing a subjective/false history in the White Book – that’s basically how history is; and maybe the “A Time for Wolves” montage) are the worst scenes in the shows existence.

      “Incest was always considered an abomination in the show. It was painted in a very bad light.”
      The word “incest” does not exist in Westeros. Just like the word “flag” doesn’t exist (what unites people ? Flags?). Just like Gendry Rivers doesn’t exist. He was not recognized so he should have had no surname. Just like Arya not telling Jon that Cersei is on her list – this would have had huge implications – she killed a faceless man, she killed the NK. Just like the Starks are the same as the Lannisters: “if you’re not one of us, we don’t trust you”; “the lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep”. Just like Tyrion forgot that his dad sacked KL when the war was over. Just like never in the history of Westeros civilians did not go inside a city under siege. All the above and many others make no sense.
      Sansa became a horrible character:
      – thank you for coming north, but you must feed yourselves;
      – wants the north to be independent but only after Dany helps in battle. Ok, you help us, then leave us alone.
      – during the most important battle in the north’s history she hides in the crypts and still criticizes Dany who was out there in the peak of the battle. The dragons can fly without riders you know…
      – implements perfectly the “chaos is a ladder” policy of her mentor;
      – Oaths near a weirwood tree don’t mean anything for Sansa anymore;
      – betrays Jon because there was no other way…

      If I go into Daenerys and Jon’s storylines things get worse.

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    61. Grail King,

      Wolfish,

      I agree that Daeneyrs was never the pure heroine that many fans seemed to want to believe. In fairness, I think the (unreliable) polls usually indicated that some fans were always uncomfortable with her character. She was always a bit volatile, always a bit too insistent on being queen, always a bit of the “white savior”, always unfit to lead….but that is a long way from turning into crazy-blond-Hitler-lady in the episode 72 of a 73 episode story. For that to work, the writers needed to give Daenerys improved character development starting perhaps 4 season back.

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    62. Mango,

      Oh, I have many, many objections to the “crazy blond Hitler lady” characterization, as I’ve written in past posts… which now seem like ages ago, given the insane summer and fall I’ve had.

      But I digress.

      As visually stunning as the proto-fascist set design in Ep8 was, it felt jarring to me for the simple reason that (imho) the 20th-century words and imagery didn’t belong in GoT. Daenerys shouldn’t have been a Hitler or a Stalin. She should have been an unhinged blend of, say, Genghis Khan and Joan of Arc. (I’m sure Inga could come up with something better.)

      Sigh.

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    63. Wolfish:
      Mango,

      Oh, I have many, many objections to the “crazy blond Hitler lady” characterization, as I’ve written in past posts… which now seem like ages ago, given the insane summer and fall I’ve had.

      But I digress.

      As visually stunning as the proto-fascist set design in Ep8 was, it felt jarring to me for the simple reason that (imho) the 20th-century words and imagery didn’t belong in GoT. Daenerys shouldn’t have been a Hitler or a Stalin. She should have been an unhinged blend of, say, Genghis Khan and Joan of Arc. (I’m sure Inga could come up with something better.)

      Sigh.

      Lots to agree with here. That imagery was completely out of context. I do not know what they could have been thinking…..or not thinking at all.

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    64. Adam,

      I agree with you. First I loved the season, now I still do but I see the faults in it. And there were many. As you stated it was a predictable last season, that’s not bad at all, but it is if you focus on suprise plottwist that everyone sees coming. Instead they should have focus more on a character driven season. We all saw the ending of LotR coming but still the way it was shown was the right way, it didn’t go with the gotcha thrope. It just told a story. We saw every change happening on screen, not 2 weeks later that a character changed that much. (dany at the end of episode 4 was different than the dany at the beginning of episode 5, and dany at the end of episode 5 was once more different than the dany at the beginning of 6.).

      but it seems that I’m to dumb to understand.

      ps. for me the most interesting part of Dany’s turn was indeed missing. that was the 2 missing weeks, that was the part of the story that should have been in the show, where everything was about. What made her change there from strong mad woman to the one she was at beginning of 5. Yes we all can fill that in, that is not the point, the point is that that part would have been the most interesting character moment of the season, and they cut it.

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    65. mau,

      But season 8 was more plotdriven than character driven. Season 1 till 6 was more characterdriven. Watch season 1 and than season 8 and you see that 8 is almost only about the plot. And 1 almost only about the characters.

      Adam,

      I agree with your look at art. And it seems I got out of the “season 8 was brilliant bubble”. Somehow first I didn’t want to feel that my favorite show had faults. Now months later I can see those mistakes without feeling shit about it. I still enjoy the whole series. Al 8 seasons. But as you state season 8 is not without it’s faults artistically.

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    66. mau,

      Funny that when I was in my bubble I loved season 8, and nobody could say otherwise, season 8 was brilliant. But when I looked at the season more objective I saw the mistakes. Not only the haters look at it subjective, also the lovers of season 8. And that you don’t dare to give even one mistake of season 8 and blame the audience for it, is prove of that.

      And about the endings. A friend of my pointed to it that it looked like lotr ending, I though they were crazy but then I watch lotr again and the final again, and they are pretty identical. Destroying the symbolic for evil (Iron throne/ the ring), then a crowning of a king, then we see a ending of the protagonist at a harbor which the main lead leave with. (Frodo and Jon). Don’t forget the book sequence and many more.

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    67. Speaking of youtube videos, I found this one interesting,

      I don’t agree with everything he says but I liked it because he had no investment in the show, he watched it in a few weeks before S8 and this is his takeaway from the whole thing. There aren’t many people making videos from that perspective, he has no theories, no grand expectations, he just watched it from beginning to end and is quite chill about it.

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    68. kevin1989,

      I don’t know what plotdriven/ character driven means in practice. In S8 in the first 2 episodes almost nothing plot important happened.

      I don’t see that much difference between S5/6 or S8 to be honest. It’s not like they concentrated that much on character moments like Jon dealing with his second life or Stannis deciding to kill his daughter.

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    69. kevin1989,

      It’s ironic that you attack me because I “don’t dare to give even one mistake of S8” when you were, if I remember, the one to criticize me when I said I thought S8 was underwritten.

      You don’t need to think that a season is perfect to think criticism of it is mostly hypocritical and dumb because all mistakes of the last season were there for years and people didn’t seem to care that much until they didn’t get fan service ending they wanted.

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    70. kevin1989: kevin1989

      October 21, 2019 at 4:35 am

      mau,

      But season 8 was more plotdriven than character driven. Season 1 till 6 was more characterdriven. Watch season 1 and than season 8 and you see that 8 is almost only about the plot. And 1 almost only about the characters.

      Adam,

      I agree with your look at art. And it seems I got out of the “season 8 was brilliant bubble”. Somehow first I didn’t want to feel that my favorite show had faults. Now months later I can see those mistakes without feeling shit about it.

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    71. I am a huge Emilia Clarke fan, and I am/was a huge Daenerys supporter. I was always willing to forgive her sins (volatility, self-righteousness, ruthlessness) because of her more noble qualities (empathy, mission/personal-driven end to slavery, fighting against patriarchy/female empowerment). I found myself shocked at her decision to flame KL and kill uncounted innocents (I am personally in the camp that much of the plot could have been accomplished by a decision (as reflected in the cut scenes) of destroying the Red Keep without destroying KL). And her redefinition of “breaking the wheel” from finding a new form of ruling Westeros (as I convinced myself) to her destroying all existing power structures (as suggested by her speech in 8×06) seemed jarring (although perhaps more wishful thinking on my part).

      However, I am constantly surprised at the vitriol many in the fandom heap on D&D. Brillant adapters, but less consistent in creating totally original material, I feel they were doing the best they could given that they far outran GRRM’s writing. I had hoped to watch 6×10 to 8×6 (as I see that as prologue setup to a 13 episode final season) in a binge fest to see how it held together, but haven’t been able to because of rolling chaos in my life. As Kevin1989 and other above have said, seasons 7 and 8 were more plot driven than character driven, and D&D had to move towards the climax and anti-climax of the outline they were given, with little context to drive the characters towards those conclusions.

      Sure there could have been more to set up Daenerys’ descent into darkness, but I think there was enough background in seasons 5-8 to show that in moment of anger and frustration, she was willing to “burn cities and melt castles”; prior to 8×5, she was mainly restrained by advisers. At the end, with her having been betrayed by all around her (except Greyworm, who himself seemed bent on revenge), and having watched a cruel Cersei behead her only real female friend, I personally think there was plenty there for me to anticipate her rash (and in my mind foolish as well as horrific) act of destruction. As pointed to above by Adam, the unkempt introduction in 8×5 and her failure to eat was a powerful way of demonstrating that she had been pushed beyond the edge.

      And, in my mind, even some of the worst plot devices in season 7 look better in the context of season 8. For example, I see Tyrion’s many failed plots and then his betrayal of releasing Jaime on the eve of battle as one contributing factor to Daenerys’ decision in the moment to go back on her commitment to him to accept a peaceful KL surrender if the bells rang. (Note: not blaming tyrion here, just saying that things added up a bit more for me).

      I am aware of many of the shortcomings of seasons 7 and 8 as pounded into me by many haters. But I am just more sympathetic to D&D then they are, given the showrunner’s lack of source material and the need to wind it up. Put me down as loving spectacle, but I really enjoyed all eight seasons, and the last two (almost) as much as the others.

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    72. “Eastwatch” and “The Last of the Starks” shoud have been split into 2 episodes. I think in both those seasons they made mistake to put aftermath of one huge event and set up for another huge event into one episode. I would also split “The Iron Throne” into 2 episodes.

      Eastwatch part 1 would end with Bran seeing The Night King marching on Eastwatch, and part 2 with Westerosi Avengers going beyond the Wall.

      The Last of thh Starks part 1 would end with Jon/Sansa/Arya/Bran scene in Godswood. And part 2 with Missandei’s death.

      The Iron Throne part 1 with Daenerys’ death and part 2 with Jon going beyond the Wall.

      So I felt both S7 and S8 needed 8 episodes. Why they didn’t do it? Who knows. Maybe it was money, maybe it was time, maybe it was creative decision to not have slow paced episode in the end, or maybe it was combination of all those things.

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    73. Mango,

      In my appreciation LoA falls in a category of military men of the British Empire who became acquainted with the Arabs and their civilization and recorded their personal experiences in journals that have come down to us and are generally very useful as historical sources, so long as one can rationalize the information and keep their bias under check. To me it is clear that they loved this foreign civilization, but they also romanticized them to the point of misunderstanding.
      Lawrence did love the Arabs and worked for them and the British Empire, that is true. I’m not claiming that he was some kind of hero or that he did everything right, because historical truth has very few heroes, but the story of the liberation of the Arab countries from Turkish occupation was almost epic and he was at the center of it.
      The movie LoA, however, shows a hero. The story has very few, if any, parallels to Daenerys’ story. The Arabs were under Turkish occupation. Anybody who thinks that Arabs and Turks are the same because they are muslim is mistaken. The Arabs wanted to liberate themselves from an occupying force that has different language and history.

      In ASOIAF there is no occupant force anywhere, not even in Essos. In fact, even the Dothraki are modelled on the real nomadic people that made Europe suffer for many centuries, such as the Hunns or the Avars or even the Mongols. So if there is such an occupant force in ASOIAF, it is rather the army that Daenerys has with her, rather than anybody else.
      Daenerys herself is the conqueror, hence the parallels with Aegon the Conqueror. Daenerys in reality becomes the conqueror in Essos, overturns the long-established social and political balances without offering an alternative and then leaves without caring about the situation she leaves behind her. When the Turks came in the Eastern Mediterranean they did exactly that, overturned the social order, but unlike Daenerys they didn’t leave.
      I think we can speak of similarities in cinematography and framing between LoA and GoT, but that is as far as the parallels go. If, however, the “boys” meant that there is a deeper parallelism of Daenerys with Lawrence, they are way off base. Lawrence was rewarded and honored for his services, but he was eventually put aside -as Emilia says, he “disintegrated”. He was fighting in a war against an occupant force, while Daenerys is the conqueror. He was involved in a massacre that had 400 dead Turkish soldiers, also in the context of battle, while Daenerys massacred an entire city of civilians. Lawrence’s actions resulted in the liberation of the Arab coutries from the Turks, but Daenerys’ resulted into chaos and destruction everywhere she went. (lol, I believe there is not one exception, or perhaps there is, Winterfell, but that’s due to the fantastic boyfriend –and yes, I do know that Adriana will object).

      Daenerys was no hero and trying to make any parallels of her story to LoA is at the least, unfortunate and confusing, especially if one puts that in same context with the Nazi imagery and wording (I’m thinking in particular her disturbing 6.9 speech). Perhaps they should have told her her to watch Attila instead –here’s a conqueror who was murdered by his wife, also exploited by the Romans but who made the Romans suffer.

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    74. Adam: From absolutely nowhere, there is a white horse – a symbol of life, hope, change – she mounts it and rides off the city – for a new adventure/ Arya from that very moment is reborn. She experiences genocide, something that would break even a serial-killer as Arya meant to be. I get it. But at the same time, they could have put a white pigeon that wouldn’t break the logic at all. The scene was totally cringey.

      You call looking for origins of that horse a waste of time – I call it looking for a cinematograhpic consistency. Just because horse symbolises something, it doesn’t mean it has sense or it’s a proper thing to do. And was not.

      I never had a problem with the horse showing up. My immediate thought was that it was a Dothraki horse whose rider had been killed. That seems an obvious explanation.

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    75. Adrianacandle,

      Oh, you’re welcome, if you are interested in that type of thing, Cinema Blend did a binge watch before S8, and put out a 15 minute reaction video for every episode. So same situation, but he got feedback in the comments when he missed things etc, of course people got mad when he misunderstood things lol

      Both of the them came to roughly the same conclusion about S8, but without any expectations and completely independent of each other.

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    76. Jenny,

      Thank-you! I was wondering about this recently, how different the viewing experience would be if somebody watched it as a viewer totally new to the show from start to finish, without time to build things up like theories, expectations, analysis, in-depth discussion, hopes… dreams…

      Speaking of which, have you ever heard of this guy? His name’s Steve and he started watching the show brand-new in 2017 as season 7 aired with previous information about the show. And he began with episode 703:

      And then proceeds to watch (most of) the rest out of order, trying to figure it out 😉

      Efi,

      Well, yes, I do tend to object to that idea since it’s a theory with a basis I don’t think is part of the show’s canon due to its general conflicts with official sources.

      But I’ll bite my tongue for now 🙂

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    77. Efi,

      I see the point you are trying to make – except Lawrence was a conqueror as were his British employers.

      Since this discussion is about GOT, I will refrain from getting in the British/Turks/Arabs situation too much except saying: (i) I did not see the Lawrence movie so cannot comment on the romantic story told; (ii) if you however read Middle East history you will know that the Arabs fought for their own liberation by fighting the Turks, seduced into helping the British army because they were promised their land & independence for fighting the Turks. While the British were promising them independence, they (including Lawrence) betrayed the Arabs by agreeing to share ALL the land among only Europeans when the war was finished, setting up various European “protectorates” for the Arabs that European would rule. The Arabs had simply switched one master for another.

      Lawrence was a part of this plan including writing many secret exchanges saying the Arabs are less stable than the Turks and arguing that the region must be split in countries in a manner a way that would keep it unstable so the Britain (or other external powers) would always be able to dominate the region. Can you see the outcome of this today?

      I do not know if he loved the Arabs, but he sure loved the British whose interests he served.

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    78. Mango,

      All that you’re saying is corroborating what I’ve explained without getting into details. This is why there are no parallels with Daenerys. There is no such situation in ASOIAF. In the show the discussion is to liberate people from an oppressive monarch (Cersei), not a conqueror. And that’s totally different, it already has many more social connotations; even the masters in Essos are seen as an oppressive social order, not as a conqueror. Cersei’s of her own country, she didn’t “conquer” anything apart from the supreme power in Westeros. GoT (and ASoIaF) play kings and queens against each other, not people.
      This is why I am saying that the parallelism is unfortunate.

      You should still see the movie; it’s one of epic ones of old Hollywood. Of course the western perspective is totally in favor of LoA (romanticizing the war and the Arabs etc only then to be let down) even though not so much of the British.

      (I come from a country that was bitterly let down by it’s supposed western “allies” on that occasion. It resulted in a genocide)

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    79. Adrianacandle,

      oh thanks for that! I remember something shocking happening but its been awhile. So yeah, I can see how that would turn him, esp when his beloved brother was involved. I know lots of people were mad that D&D didn’t keep that story in the show; but i think by that point there was reason enough for him to kill his father without her.

      Re Lawrence of Arabia, a side note that there was a woman named Gertrude Bell who was working with the brits about the same time; she was well traveled and well known in the area, and was also working to negotiate a deal for the arabs, esp in Syria. The article below mentions a bio and a movie. The bio is really good. Skip the movie with Nicole kidman,just sayin

      https://www.biography.com/news/gertrude-bell-biography-facts

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    80. mau,

      The focus of the story that is told. What comes first plot or Character moments. Is it more important to go to a certain end-point. Or more important that the character scenes are implemented.

      For instance defeating Cersei. That was plotdriven. It drove towards the end of Cersei’s demise, and the focus was the demise, not Cersei. They dismiss for instance character moments with Cersei and Missandei. Or Missandei and Dany to get as fast towards that endpoint.

      A good example of character driven storyline is for instance Arya in season 4. her whole arc in season 4 was wondering with Sandor and building their characters. It took them 8 episodes till they finally arrive at their endpoint. And then we got 1 episode where she left Westeros and the hound was defeated by Brienne. A whole season of wondering, travelling and getting to know the 2 characters while their characters build.

      And defeating Cersei was plotdriven. Yes her endmoments are character driven, but the whole buildup to that point was plotdriven. Same as Varys demise. The only thing that mattered was that Varys would be killed, and not the build up to it. They dismissed the whole poison part, what Varys did in those 2 weeks that he was certain Dany would turn dark etc. Another one is Tyrion telling Varys about Dany just minutes before they got attacked was plotdriven storytelling. If it was character driven, and more logical Tyrion would have said that not after 2 weeks to Varys but a day after when they were still in the north. The plot was the focus not the characters.

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    81. mau,

      As I said before, the bubble I was in after the season just finish airing is gone. I was in a “my favorite show is great till the end” bubble. It is still the show I talk the most about. It’s still my favorite. And yes some criticize people without thinking for themselves, you’re right I met those too. That didn’t seem to understand certain parts of the story.

      But the same I found after those months and re-watching. That certain things were not done well. And I saw what people meant with “Bullet point” storytelling. There are things missing, and with Dany’s downfall, I still agree that Dany should have turn dark, it was her whole arc. But it doesn’t make sense I mean what is the real reason of her turn. Is it that she didn’t get love west of the sea? Is it that her friends died and she was isolated? Was it that she saw Cersei in her parental home? Which episode 5 seems to suggest.
      But how is it that episode 6 suggest that her turn was based on her ideology, that she wants to liberate the world of tyrant. She didn’t seem emotional-gutted there. She seemed certain of her cause, of her ideology.

      So which was the real reason for her turn? Was it madness, was it grieve? Isolation? Or was it as many suggested that her turn would be, her ideology. But if that was the case why did D&D tell in the episode 5 inside video that it was seeing her parental home when that’s against her whole arc that lead to her demise. It could have made sense (something that I filled in for myself but that’s not how a good tv-show does it, and especially GoT because their premise was that they show everything that is needed), that in those 2 missing weeks her anger/sadness/ longing to go home and longing for love, and Grey worm fueling her ideology and her anger towards the people of KL.

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    82. David A,

      I agree, still I have nothing against D&D, not personally. And not with their work. They are brilliant writers. And it’s not easy to write with the timelimit they had, and with their other work they needed to do in the timeframe they got.

      mau,

      Agree with this. I think that would have been enough. And I think money was the issue (actors getting paid per episode not per season since season 7).

      Grandmaester Flash,

      I agree. I loved that scene.

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    83. ash: I know lots of people were mad that D&D didn’t keep that story in the show; but i think by that point there was reason enough for him to kill his father without her.

      Oh yes, I agree.

      I would have liked if they kept that detail in the show but I think you’re right, Tyrion had motive without it.

        Quote  Reply

    84. kevin1989: So which was the real reason for her turn? Was it madness, was it grieve? Isolation? Or was it as many suggested that her turn would be, her ideology.

      I’d say it’s a combination of those. But none of it would have happened if she wasn’t so hellbent on sitting on the Iron Throne. So ultimately it was her quest for the IT/power that was her downfall. The story at its core has always been about power and how it corrupts. Dany’s arc is the embodiement of that.

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    85. kevin1989,

      If you leave that bubble even more you will realize that GoT was never perfect and it never spent that much time on character decisions.

      Robb’s decision to marry Talisa was also “rushed”, after just one sex scene he decided she is love of his life and he will sacrifice everything for that relationship. I mean he made that decision off screen and we just found out when he told Cat. So the major character decision that lead to RW happened off screen.

      Stannis decision to kill Shireen was also something that happened off screen. But you wanted to see those 2 weeks at Dragonstone in S8?

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    86. I agree with Jenny: some members of the audience were never going to accept Dany’s downfall, no matter the presentation. I personally loved the ending, thought it was brilliantly and perfectly set up, and Emilia Clarke sold the whole thing through the entire run of the series. She neither created Dany nor wrote her story; her role was to embody a complex character over many years, and she did an amazing job. I hope she gets many more such complex and challenging characters to portray.

      Emerson wrote that when analyzing history, one should avoid reading too much into it, because the causes are often superficial. GRRM and D&D managed to create a fictional story where this applies. Had any detail gone differently, King’s Landing might not have burned, and Dany might not have died at the hands of her estranged lover. Had Dany been willing to consider a political marriage to Jon, she could have had power and legitimacy. Therein lies her character flaw: she had to have the Iron Throne all to herself, even though, by her own logic, Jon had the better claim. This character flaw, combined with externalities she could not control,
      turned her romantic hero into a tragic one.

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    87. kevin1989,

      Hi, I remember you 🙂 great to hear you got out of that bubble.

      I do believe people get me wrong. I did enjoy the show after all. What I am pointing out to, is that there were lots, like LOTS of flaws in the last 2 seasons. I was analysing that seasons thousands of times, rewatched them etc. and the conclusion stays the same – the execution was terrible. I know where D&D were coming from – I actually understand what they tried to achieved, but instead of putting the budgest into the story, they switched to the Hollywood style cinema – which was absolutely the wrong choice.

      When it comes to the hollywoodish style, what really angered me was the 5th episode. You can see how mouch budget has been consumed for so little of the story. Look at the tower in which Cleganebowl takes place – it’s so cliche: everything burns, the tower almost collapses, even they catched the DRAGON flying above. I mean, you can’t get anywhere further with the Hollywood.

      It always got me frustrated to listen to people saying it was obvious that Daenerys would fall into the madness, and you can watch it with every step she took during these 8 seasons. And I can’t get rid off the thought, that people saying that, are the same people who would agree, that it was a perfect ending for Dany to survive the series, as NOTHING really pointed to her death and madness 🙂

      Look how WELL developed Sansa is. Her way was rough and horrible, some plotlines might have been boring, but after all, she made a huge development. It all felt so natural, subtle, every thought of hers was an effect of experience – from the hands of Joffrey, Cersei, Boltons to the Littlefinger.

      Now, we have a Daenerys. I absolutely buy the idea of her downfall, but the way the executed it was horrible. It didn’t have a natural pace… not that the last 2 seasons had a natural pace. We had an entire season of Jaime travelling with Brienne. And then, we have the “Eastwatch” episode. They travel from Dragonstone, to King’s Landing, back to Dragonstone, and from there guess what… beyond the Wall. This. Is. Ridiculous.

      Yes, I know what internal logic is. Once you set a world in which dragons fly and kill, you can’t expect them to land on the rock, take the guitar and sing while dancing.
      It’s pretty easy to imagine a use of MILITARY tactics from a real world while fighting the DEAD. We already know that FIRE is what keeps them at the distance.
      In the show, they debated the strategy for a while.Okay, I can absolutely ignore some stupid things which happened in almost every show I have watched, but still… there’s a huge difference between putting war-machines in a front lines and attacking the dead which you can’t see with horsemen. And keeping trenches behind your army… I mean, man. Just take 3 steps backwards and look at this with fresh, critical mind.

      And once again, I am absolutely aware of using the “personal experience argument”, but seeing all these guys from Burlington Bar – people how are totally hardcore fanbois – with their faces disappointed and bored is sound enough for me to conclude that most of the fanbase was disappointed, and that no serious conspiracy was behind it.

      I agree, that people overreacted, but still.

      It’s amazing how reaching people are. That Arya was meant to kill the Night King. That Melisandre served her purpose… just as Beric Dondarion. That Euron is a fantastically portratyed psychopath. That Jon Snow is something more than a plot device (someone who has been reduced from an unconcious hero, to a legendary warrior who means nothing after all). That Bran is a genius who PLANNED it all. That Jaime’s death was glorious and poetic. That Cersei’s role was amazing and balanced.

      Even a freaking Qyburn… they had no idea what to do with this guy, so they smashed his head. Good Lord, how retarded that idea is…

      Really, it’s not about agreeing with me. It’s about being willing to face the flaws rather than perform a massive reaching, and looking for hints that barely exists.

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    88. Raenarys,

      First of his name as in first with that name to be proclaimed king of the 6 Kingdoms, in other words, counting them refers to the occupants of the throne with that name, not his relatives who never sat on that same throne or whom may have sat on another throne.

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    89. Adam,

      …Really, it’s not about agreeing with me. It’s about being willing to face the flaws rather than perform a massive reaching, and looking for hints that barely exists.”

      I don’t – and can’t – disagree with you. The lack of “connective tissue” left viewers baffled, and forced to extrapolate “explanations.”

      Still, the way I look at the entirety of the show is that out of 73 episodes, they only whiffed on a handful. It’s unfortunate that most of those whiffs came in the final two seasons.

      If you’ll excuse the following sports comparison:
      I’m a (former) baseball fan. Two years ago, my favorite player Giancarlo Stanton was closing in on the record* for homeruns in a season. With a week to go, he had 59. Unfortunately, he didn’t hit another one and finished with 59 (but did win the National League Most Valuable Player Award.)
      * Non-steroid records of 60 NL (Hank Aaron) and 61 AL (Roger Maris).

      Was I disappointed he didn’t reach 60 or 61? Sure I was. Do I wish he had finished the season with a flurry instead of fizzling out? Yes.

      Nevertheless, it didn’t detract from my enjoyment watching him hit those 59 moonshots, or his accomplishments that earned him the MVP trophy.
      Likewise, even if the final episodes of GoT were underwhelming, my disappointment is far outweighed by my appreciation for all of the wonderful scenes and episodes that preceded them.

      – End baseball metaphors –

        Quote  Reply

    90. Ten Bears,

      This reminded me of this great post from May:

      I’m going to say this so that the people here who HATE the way things have gone this season (and are posting incessantly about it) don’t get to overwhelm the conversation. This show is still great and even though I have things that I don’t like about the way they’ve tried to end things, I still very much love watching these final episodes and have largely enjoyed them.

      I think criticizing the writing and storytelling decisions is fair game but going apoplectic over the entire series and the credentials of D&D as the show runners is overreaction to the extreme. Even at it’s absolute worst, GoT is an amazing cinematic achievement and I for one, would like to enjoy the end of it for all the things it has done and what it’s meant to us as fans over the years. The constant stream of negativity and gloating over other pieces of negativity that you’ve been able to track down isn’t really constructive. Taking a step back and trying to gain some perspective on things while watching these episodes is probably a good rule of thumb. Or, as suggested, if you are not getting any enjoyment out of the show anymore (which is your right), maybe just check out for a while and revisit at a later date.

      I can guarantee you that spreading your displeasure here isn’t really helping the general discourse. I don’t want or expect rainbows or lollipops in these discussions but let’s try to not approach this from such a toxic mindset. It’s still a great show even with it’s flaws and ignoring all the good in there is ruining the experience for the rest of us.

      Thanks.

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    91. kevin1989:
      Agree with this. I think that would have been enough. And I think money was the issue (actors getting paid per episode not per season since season 7).

      Maybe it was money or maybe they wanted every episode to be “event episode” I don’t know. I don’t even know if the last season would’ve be more popular if they had 8 episodes because I still believe that for vast majority the problem was outcome and not the execution. I mean general audience and critics didn’t give a fuck about problems with S7 because it gave them what they wanted. Giving such high scores to Eastwatch and then acting like The Last of the Starks is the worst episode ever is hypocrisy at its finest.

      If E4 and E6 were spit into two I think that could’ve been boring to a lot of people. I never met anyone in real life who really liked E2. For most of them it was slow episode where nothing happened. So more of that would maybe made S8 more unpopular, but still I would love slower pace in the second part of the season.

      I think in both S7 and S8 first half was great. I wouldn’t change anything about S7E1-E4 and S8E1-E3. It’s when they start to pivot from one conflict to another that problems appear.

      But still, I feel thinking too much about missed opportunities is pointless and it can only create frustration, because no one can change anything. Even if Benioff himself agreed with all of us here, it’s done. So I like to think about what we got and not about what could’ve been.

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    92. mau,

      I agree completely. My feeling is the second half of season 7 is where a lot of the issues in season 8 come forward. Cersei should have been defeated in season 7. The whole season should have been the battle for the throne. The first half of season 8 should have been the night king. The last three episodes should have been about the starks ending the threat of fire after they defeated the threat of ice. I think the splitting of the episodes would have helped the pacing. To many stories being thrown into an episode. Most of my non book reader friends thought episode 2 was the weakest of the season.

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    93. kevin1989:
      Adam,

      I agree with you. First I loved the season, now…”

      And this is exactly why I don’t like reading your comments anymore. Truly like that now luckily former member of our LOST community… I know I used to like your comments during S8 air because you were one of the few members here who was actually positive about the show in my eyes, along with mau and Young Dragon. Now I feel you’re no different than those people who are pain in the ass to us admins in our LOST community.

        Quote  Reply

    94. Stew,

      Or maybe even killing the Night King in S7.

      S7 would be just war against the WW and it would culminate with battle we saw in 803. And then S8 would be Cersei vs Daenerys, with Spoils of War and the Bells .

      I thing combining war for the Throne and war against the WW in one season (and they did it twice, with boith S7 and S8) created some problems.

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    95. Lord Parramandas,

      Critic Sean Collins said it best “People act like the two guys who created one of the most acclaimed viewed shows ever can’t even tie their own shoes and if they could they would just step on kittens”.

      And he said this in 2014. lol During “the gold age of GoT” as some fans would say. Where where they after S4 to say that S4 was great and the best GoT season ever? It wasn’t that popular to say this 5 yeas ago.

      GoT “fans” always treated Benioff and Weiss like shit.

        Quote  Reply

    96. mau,

      This was actually thought as well, have the WW threat dealt with in S7, that would heavily weaken Dany before her battle with Cersei. It would also weigh heavily on her if she helped to defeat the WW and the great Houses chose Cersei anyway. It wouldn’t just be issues in the North, it would be the Tarly’s etc saying nah.

      It would also give Jaime longer to realise that he couldn’t go on living with his guilt and he would go back to save Cersei in S8.

      I actually like S8 more than S7, Dany was too OP when she arrived in Westeros and they had to rebalance things by having her lose some battles with some questionable battle plans (thanx Tyrion).

        Quote  Reply

    97. mau:
      Lord Parramandas,

      Critic Sean Collins said it best “People act like the two guys who created one of the most acclaimed viewed shows ever can’t even tie their own shoes and if they could they would just step on kittens”.

      And he said this in 2014. lol During “the gold age of GoT” as some fans would say. Where where they after S4 to say that S4 was great and the best GoT season ever? It wasn’t that popular to say this 5 yeas ago.

      GoT “fans” always treated Benioff and Weiss like shit.

      The hatred aimed towards the showrunners literally makes me want to throw up. The attitude of these self-righteous haters is beyond my understanding.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Jenny,

      After S6 they had two wars left. War for the Throne and War for the Dawn. And they had 2 seasons left. I think if they had one war per season that would work better. And since we now know that the story has to end with Daenerys burning KL and being killed after that, that means that War for the Throne has to be the last.

      So destroy WW in S7.

        Quote  Reply

    99. mau,

      In my eyes, S7/S8 story already gets more of a flow if I look at both seasons as one 13-episodes long season that aired in two parts. At least that’s the vibe I got on (re)watch (transitioning from S7 to S8)

        Quote  Reply

    100. mau,

      Yep, that’s how I would have done it, the battle with Cersei would be in S8. Dany would start S8 with half of her army gone, and the Southern houses would side with Cersei against her. That would really mess with her head in S8 after saving the realm in S7. Sorry I think I wrote it a bit jumbled in my previous post.

        Quote  Reply

    101. mau,

      And you’re right about the “fandom” after S4. That season was trashed left and right for taking liberties over the books back then. It was the season when I started slipping away from various “fan” pages (and GoT Wikia actively started to get ruined by The Dragon Demands during that season).

        Quote  Reply

    102. mau,

      And I think this “backlash” on S8 is a result of this overspeculation on the ending and setting fan theories as facts. According to majority of comments, many casual watchers predicted the show to end with Jon & Daenerys as power couple, maybe even having a baby to continue the Targaryen dynasty. I remember comments “GRRM is obviously setting up the restoration of Targaryen dynasty”. It was pretty much established in fandom that the war for the Throne will end first and White Walkers will be the endgame of the story when entire realm would unite against them. It was also pretty much established during fandom that Jaime would kill Cersei or maybe Arya wearing Jaime’s face. Then S7 and S8 subverted pretty much all expectations regarding how the story would go.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Lord Parramandas,

      That’s true. But I still feel that if the Bells came immediately after The Spoils of War that would work better.

      Now you have one conflict that gets interesting and then it just stops and the story goes to another conflict and people are really invested now in this new war against the WW and then that ends and in the second half of 804 it feels like they picked up where they left in the middle of 705.

      I still like it, but I feel “step by step” would work better. But to be honest I don’t even know how that would look. I don’t know any major story that had two natural climaxes that were set up since the beginning. War for the Throne and War against the WW were there since S1 but they feel like two completely separate stories. I don’t know how really to do a climax of the entore story and to avoid that feeling that one conflict was, after all, more important.

      It’s inevitable that the conflict that ends first will feel less important. I feel like GRRM doesn’t know how to do this either.

        Quote  Reply

    104. mau:
      Lord Parramandas,

      That’s true. But I still feel that if the Bells came immediately afterThe Spoils of War that would work better.

      Now you have one conflict that gets interesting and then it just stops and the story goes to another conflict and people are really invested now in this new war against the WW and then that ends and in the second half of 804 it feels like they picked up where they left in the middle of 705.

      I still like it, but I feel “step by step” would work better. But to be honest I don’t even know how that would look. I don’t know any major storythat had two natural climaxes that were set up since the beginning. War for the Throne and War against the WW were there since S1 but they feel like two completely separate stories. I don’t know how really to doa climax of the entore story and to avoid that feeling that one conflict was, after all, more important.

      It’s inevitable that the conflict that ends first will feel less important. I feel like GRRM doesn’t know how to do this either.

      Yes, you’re right. It’s a messy situation from get-go when you have two climaxes that are not directly related to each other. It does make me wonder how will GRRM cover everything in two more books.

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    105. Lord Parramandas,

      When the story is this popular interpretation is stronger than what the story is doing. When Jaime raped Cersei, when he stayed with her after Walk of Shame, after Sept explosion and so on, people were blaming writing. They were not willing to see that Jaime will always return to Cersei. And then when he retured to her they said it came out of nowhere and it ruined his arc lol. After they were saying for years how in the show Jaime it too devoted to Cersei they acted like it made no sense he would return.

      When you have large part of the audience that will ignore the story because it goes against their interpretation I don’t really know what the writers can do.

      They thought that Jaime is on redemption arc. It was wrong. They thought Jon will become king. They were wrong. They thought he would kill the Night King, they were wrong. They thought White Walkers are final enemies, they were wrong. They thought that Jaime or Arya will kill Cersei, they were wrong.

      I think large part of the audience loves predictability at the end. They don’t want the way they looked at the story to be questioned at the very end. That’s why S6 was so popular. It just said to people – everything you thought will happen – happened. With some interesting twists like Hold the door and Sept explosion.

      I think Benioff and Weiss overestimated how much big part of the audience were willing to recontextualize things at the very end.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Lord Parramandas,

      I came into the online fandom pretty late, so I’m glad I missed that. “The Children” has been one of my favorite episodes since it first aired, and remains so.

      My own issues with the last two seasons, such as they are, have nothing to do with where the characters landed* and everything to do with what felt, in comparison to S1-S6, like 1) rushed, bullet-point storytelling and 2) lapses in logic that serviced certain moments instead of the story as a whole.

      *I’ll always be sore over the Hound. Not necessarily that he died, although I would have loved to see him live, but how. That entire journey of growth and redemption wasted on dying with FrankenGregor? I know lots of people loved that whole sequence, but to me it was cheesier than County Cheshire. /end rant

        Quote  Reply

    107. mau,

      Yes, pretty much like you said above… the end of GoT was bound to be controversial unless it was a different one (and exactly going by fan expectations) from get-go. Just like you said about Jon killing Dany… most people were outraged that Dany went villain mode in the end. The plot point alone already made them hate it. Pretty much the only way to please this audience was… well, making Dany the hero not the villain. That’s something that increasingly bothers me… when “fans” behave like the writers have obligation to them. They don’t. The fans have the privilege to watch/read the story that is the author’s creation, nothing more.

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    108. Wolfish,

      My only issue with last two season is that I would have liked an episode or two more for the sake of the story flow. But it pretty much ends there for me regarding issues because as I said above, it’s not my story.

      And you may be one of the few who is mainly bothered by the story flow. But majority of the complainers are those who plain don’t like how the story ended and would have been only satisfied if it went exactly how they wanted.

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    109. mau:
      Lord Parramandas,

      People were outraged about that once it leaked, before they even saw the execution of it, so saying that they were ok with that plot point, but not with execution is not true.

      Yes, exactly. They plain didn’t like the direction of the story. And the thing is that many casual watchers don’t even care about execution. They just want to see things happen on screen. That’s so obvious in various fandoms.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Wolfish,

      I think what is also important to remember is that going from like 10 separate storylines in S1-6 to 2-3 in the last two seasons completely changes the feel of the story.

      Did you know that almost 40% of the entire screentime Daenerys had in the entire show was in the last 13 episodes?

      60% of her screentime was in the first 60 episodes and then 40% in the last 13. It’s crazy when you think about it.

        Quote  Reply

    111. All this talk about the last 2 seasons will just force me to rewatch them again. lol

      Once I press play I just (kinda) forget about all problems and just enjoy the story.

        Quote  Reply

    112. mau:
      All this talk about the last 2 seasons will just force me to rewatch them again. lol

      Once I press play I just (kinda) forget about all problems and just enjoy the story.

      When (re)watching GoT, I usually have zero problems with the story. Even with my least favorite episodes (and those episodes are all from earlier seasons in my case). And I think when I rewatch the show as a whole, I’ll have even less problems, knowing exactly where the story is headed.

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    113. Lord Parramandas,

      I just like to like things. lol Seeing flaws is not deal breaker for me. I mean a was huge fan of Harry Potter and GoT is better than those movies in every way from writing to visual consistency.

        Quote  Reply

    114. mau:
      Lord Parramandas,

      I just like to like things. lol Seeing flaws is not deal breaker for me. I mean a was huge fan of Harry Potter and GoT is better than those movies in every way from writing to visual consistency.

      There’s no story that would be “perfect” for me. But for most of the time when it comes to my favorite TV shows and movies, I watch to like them. I certainly don’t watch them in order to be displeased on every step because I see absolutely zero point in that… but I feel many people do exactly that.

        Quote  Reply

    115. mau,

      You know, I visited my girlfriend this past weekend (who I’m in long distance relationship with) and she started watching GoT herself a couple weeks ago, currently 15 episodes into it and she really loves it. ANd she told me about talking to two of her university classmates about GoT. And one of them said that he has two GoT T-Shirts… and the other classmate said that he should just burn those T-Shirts as GoT ending destroyed the entire show. And honestly, how pathetic this is to feel such hatred towards a TV show. And I’m sure if my girlfriend asked this classmate about what would she make the ending better, she probably wouldn’t be even able to properly answer.

        Quote  Reply

    116. Wolfish,

      Yes, you write a long comment and more than often it doesn’t even get posted. That’s why I had to migrate my colossal reviews to the forums.

        Quote  Reply

    117. Lord Parramandas,

      As disappointed as I was by many things in the last two seasons, I can’t fathom feeling that way. And speaking of T-shirts… yesterday I went to the neighborhood secondhand store to donate some clothes wearing one of my WotW T-shirts. As I was walking away, the very grandmotherly older woman who helped me said, “A Game of Thrones fan, I see!”

      😀🍷

        Quote  Reply

    118. Lord Parramandas,

      I have different experience. I know several people who didn’t like the last season or parts of it and they said they can’t wait to rewatch the show lol.

      I never met those “George Lucas raped my childhood” type of people in real life.

        Quote  Reply

    119. Young Dragon,

      I agree it’s a bit of a nitpick but to say it doesn’t change the outcome is silly. If Arya and the Hound got there before Dany started attacking, there’s a good chance Cersei would’ve been killed before the battle started and the battle wouldn’t have even happened.

        Quote  Reply

    120. I just wanted to thank Lord Parramandas, mau, Young Dragon and others who post intelligent and positive comments about the show. It’s perfectly OK to criticise something, but it’s entirely pointless to insist on “how it should’ve been done”, now that the show is over. If you didn’t like it that’s fine, just don’t insist on forcing that negativity to others. This is a site for fans, so it’s expected that most people here will more or less enjoy the show. Let them (us) enjoy it without trying to make us feel stupid because we like it!
      Ultimately, for me GoT is one of my absolute favourite shows and I’m really glad I can enjoy rewatching it, despite any flaws it may have.

        Quote  Reply

    121. Raenarys,

      Your welcome.

      mau: kevin

      Game of thrones was till season 4 a heavy character-based show. The reason why we’re all starting to watch the show was that it was heavily on the characters. Season 4 is by many the favorite season, and that season has very little plot-driven story. But was heavily character driven. Almost everything that happen in that season was about character interaction, and very little about plot.
      We got 9 Tyrion episodes, of which 2 was about the purple wedding and his bond with Shae. That lead to 6 episode about his imprisonment, which was heavily based on the characters motives and interactions. And his last he escaped to Essos. His plot was “Being on trial for the murder of Joffrey”.
      Same with Arya: Her season was character driven, all about the interaction’s with Sandor. Her plot was “Getting to the Eyrie” Which she only got in episode 8. But it was amazing that the whole season was just one plotpoint for her which was filled with character-driven moments.
      season 5 and 6 already moved more to plotbased storytelling and less about character-driven storytelling. But still it had enough character moments.
      Season 8, first 2 episodes was heavily about the characters. That felt like the old GoT from season 1 till 4. Same with episode 3. A big battle episode to break the story. But with episode 4 till 6 and especially 4. It was all about getting the plot going. They skipped over many character driven moments that were crucial for the story. Varys, Arya’s and Sansa’s reaction to Jon’s parentage. Missandei and Dany’s relationship. Missandei and Cersei. Dany’s missing 2 weeks, all character driven storylines that couldn’t be in it, for the sake of moving to plot as fast as possible.

      So you’re argument about “the show is not a character-study show” is also not making any sense, because it seems you missed the whole point what GoT books and show both made such a huge success. It was not the plot. It was how real the characters were, and that the character decided the plot that was happening. Not the other way around.

        Quote  Reply

    122. mau,

      mau:
      Jenny,

      After S6 they had two wars left. War for the Throne and War for the Dawn. And they had 2 seasons left. I think if they had one war per season that would work better. And since we now know that the story has to end with Daenerys burning KL and being killed after that, that means that War for the Throne has to be the last.

      So destroy WW in S7.

      That’s interesting. Before S7, I expected that S7 would deal with the conflict between Dany and Cersei (the “second conflict” from Martin’s original plans), end it, and leave S8 to deal with the WW (the “third conflict”). That’s what a lot of people expeted, actually. But that means that a show about complex character conflicts ends with a “good guys vs. monsters” epic battle, which would suck.

      The first big surprise of S8 (the fact that the conflict with the WW was the first conflict to be resolved, and therefore, wasn’t the big climax) really caught me off-guard, but I really like it. It saved the best, more complex and emotionally dramatic conflict for the big climax.

      Would it be better if each conflict was resolved in a separate season? I really don’t think so. Two reasons, mainly. One, it would feel too “neat”, too easy, too clean. Having both conflicts at the same time, and having to choose where to focus is a more interesting perspective for the characters, and more realistic, in a way.
      And two, the end of 803 left me with no real anticipation for the rest of the story. It felt that the big conflict was over, and that the “last war” would be too small, too anticlimatic. Thankfully, things changed after 804 (which I like very very much, btw). But I think it would’ve been a really bad idea to end a season with the victory against the WW. It would be very hard to create a sense of anticipation for the final season, without giving the big twist away.

      And by the way, in my opinion, the second half of season 8 was better than the first half.

        Quote  Reply

    123. mau,

      I never said it was perfect. The over-use of sexscenes in the first couple of seasons was for me not needed and therefore a mistake of the show.

      About Robb and Talisa’s love. We saw 5 episodes building up to that moment. We saw that slowly building. The first-love look of Robb (I remember the first time I was in love, it was very fast, in a day, and later you dream of it), Robb kept his oath for a while. We saw interactions with them about themselves, about what they do, the war. And then Robb gave in with his first love instead and forget his oath. It was slowly build. And compare that to Dany’s downfall. In which these 2 weeks that were missing were the most crucial key to her downfall. From the mad at Cersei at the end of episode 4 to the mad at whole KL at the beginning of 5. (yes she stated it in 5 that they had chosen Cersei and are not that innocent, that Tyrion needs to tell they were afraid). So how did she changed from those 2 moments to the next, especially when it was the biggest plottwist of the whole show, Dany’s fall. All steps in that fall should have been shown on screen, not just some parts of it and keep the rest to our imagination.

      As for Stannis and Shireen. I was never a big fan how the show played that, that Stannis was responsible for it. But it was shown on screen. Or did you miss the whole sending Davos away when a moment before he talked with Mellisandre about burning Shireen. Why did you think he send Davos away and looked more down than before that conversation, and having Davos asking to take Shireen. And Stannis states she stays. They stated before it happen: Shireen is going to burn. And the whole season had moments with Stannis and his daughter.

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    124. oierem,

      It caught me off-guard as well and I really liked it. I liked that show was still able to surprise me. To do something fresh and original. Every fantasy story has this big battle to save the world. GoT had as well. But what was interesting is that it wasn’t the last battle.

      And I agree that one war per season would probably be too clean, as you said.

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    125. kevin1989,

      When you say 5 episides it feels like a lot, but in reality it was 4 scenes across 4 episodes. I mean that plot development was really controversial in the fandom back in 2012. But it was much smaller fandom.

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    126. kevin1989,

      When Stannis sent Davos away the decision was already made. But the show didn’t spent a lot of time on that at all. Just like they didn’t spent a lot of time on Jon dealing with his second life or Cersei dealing with the death of her children. So I don’t know why you expected some slow character drama with Daenerys. To be honest they gave it more time than I expected.

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    127. Wolfish,

      ”I’ll always be sore over the Hound. Not necessarily that he died, although I would have loved to see him live, but how. That entire journey of growth and redemption wasted on dying with FrankenGregor? I know lots of people loved that whole sequence, but to me it was cheesier than County Cheshire. /end rant”

      ———
      What??? The Hound died? Say it ain’t so!

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    128. Adam,

      Same here, I still love all the shows. I think I will rewatch the whole saga after I finished lost again. And I wouldn’t rate a single episode below a 8. And I still talk a lot about it, when most of the time after a show stops I stop talking about it.
      Agree about the Hollywood style, they are better than that. For me D&D are above those Hollywood style writers/producers. They can do what others can’t. Put the best characters on screen, look what they did with many side characters on the show. Shae, Bronn, Thormund, Osha. It was brilliant. They brought those to live in which not many can do. And they changed their way of storytelling, and the characters suffered. For instance Euron.
      And I agree, I buy it too, I said it from book/season 1. She is bad news. And agree, that’s what I try to say and you gave the perfect answer. About the plot above characters. We had a whole travelogue of Jaime and Brienne in season 3 and it was brilliant. And that even started in season 2. His whole journey from Robb’s camp towards home was 13 episodes.
      I would found it amazing if Drogon would have played rock on the show 😉

      And about that disappointment what people think is that people hated season 8, no they didn’t hate it. Even friend of mine who was disappointed with season 8 says it’s still a good season. But that GoT set up as a series that was beyond everything on television. (not visually I know long night set the visual record), but story wise. The story and character were richer than ever on television. And he expected season after season (especially when season 4 was such a high on television and put on a new bar for what is good, old good shows dropped to the mediocre rating because of it), and then in the end it was just another show that ended. It was good, but not changing the bar to a new high, which the show set up to be since season 1.

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    129. Ten Bears,

      I always love your metaphors ten bears.

      mau,

      The show is still great as a whole. D&D are still brilliant, and I’m waiting for their new projects. And I enjoy the show still from beginning to end. I think I will do a rewatch for the first 4 seasons this year. (2 seasons then watching shows that are on the air I bingewatch them, then another 2 seasons). Next year the same but then with 5 till 8.

      mau,

      Agree. I think splitting episode 4 would have cut the deal perfectly. And it still had amazing moments. And calling 8×04 the worst episode ever is just silly. It had it’s problems but still rating it below 8 is a crime in my book. A bad GoT-episode is still better than most tv-shows.

      The first 40/50 minutes of episode 8×04 was just pure gold for me. The whole aftermath party. Starts with a tear ends with laughter.

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    130. Lord Parramandas: And this is exactly why I don’t like reading your comments anymore. Truly like that now luckily former member of our LOST community… I know I used to like your comments during S8 air because you were one of the few members here who was actually positive about the show in my eyes, along with mau and Young Dragon. Now I feel you’re no different than those people who are pain in the ass to us admins in our LOST community.

      Well, you can’t just focus on people who share your opinion. Not everyone shares the same opinion or view. And you can hate that or love that. I personally love that. It gives perspective to things hearing other’s opinion. If I only want people around me who share my view on everything I wouldn’t have friends or family anymore. That’s life.

      And what we’re doing here is just debating the show. Which is not against the rules. Back when I was a member of a lost forum. Our community there was 50/50% on the end of lost. Some loved it, some disliked it and had their reasons. I was in the “I loved the end”. But still they didn’t throw out people who disliked the ending. We respected each other’s opinions. We still debate civil with each other. We still talked about other shows, about real life events. And to put the icing on the cake. We even had a meeting where we shared a whole day in real life with a ground of around 15. We talked short about the ending of lost. But we didn’t care that we disagreed. We had fun the rest of the day, with shopping for some (I don’t like it but they did), we drink something on a terrace and we wen’t bowling together. A whole day of having fun together and laughing and acting silly. Even when half disliked the ending of lost, we made a fun day together.

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    131. Jenny,

      What’s OP?

      mau,

      I think that was maybe their first plan but I think they couldn’t let the wall down in season 6 final without the horn of winter. But I like you’re idea a lot.

      mau:
      Lord Parramandas,

      I remember that The Children was back then “the worst episode ever” lol.

      One of my favorites, even then.

      mau:
      All this talk about the last 2 seasons will just force me to rewatch them again. lol

      Once I press play I just (kinda) forget about all problems and just enjoy the story.

      You will be watching them, through winter, summer, and winter again. Across a thousand thousand seasons you will be watching them, until time comes to an end. Welcome home.

      At least this is me.

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    132. Lord Parramandas,

      Than she should just give the t-shirts away, to somebody that wants them. This is just idiotic to burn them.

      Wolfish,

      That’s just cute (right word?). I love old people like that.

      Looper:
      Young Dragon,

      I agree it’s a bit of a nitpick but to say it doesn’t change the outcome is silly. If Arya and the Hound got there before Dany started attacking, there’s a good chance Cersei would’ve been killed before the battle started and the battle wouldn’t have even happened.

      Damn Sandor, why did he stop to eat that bucket of KFC-chicken.

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    133. mau,

      Wasn’t that because of that talisa took over jeyne westerling in the show? I personally didn’t have a problem with that. But the whole point there was that Robb made that decision without thinking. He was in love and forgot all about his promises. His carelessness was what brought him down and resulted in his dead. And it’s only 4 scenes. But 4 important scenes only dedicated to those 2 characters. The plot of the war of 5 kings took a halt in those 4 episodes and only moved again until 3×01 in Robbs scenes.

      And sometimes even 1 small scene can do the trick. As you stated episode 4 would have worked better if it would have been 2 episodes. So you probably also have scenes in your head that you wished were there. Or better worded could be there.

      mau,

      It’s struck me that you give scenes of season 5 6 and 7. Which I already said that were more plotdriven instead of character driven. As for Jon. His second life was the whole season 6. He even asked Mel to not bring him back again. His whole season 6 arc was about Jon finding his way with his second life.
      As for cersei I agree to some degree. With joffrey we got a whole season. With myrcella we got some emotional scenes. With the funeral. And her clinging even more to tommen. With tommen it was more she didn’t want to feel. Her scene with tyrion show a bit more emotion about her children. It showed again. It was the driven force of her character. That’s why I still love her ending. It was all about her kids.

      About Dany just a 2 of 3 small scenes would have been the glue.

      Ten Bears:
      Wolfish,

      ”I’ll always be sore over the Hound. Not necessarily that he died, although I would have loved to see him live, but how. That entire journey of growth and redemption wasted on dying with FrankenGregor? I know lots of people loved that whole sequence, but to me it was cheesier than County Cheshire. /end rant”

      ——— What??? The Hound died? Say it ain’t so!

      He’s as crispy as a kfc drumstick.

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    134. Iul,

      I disagree completely. The sexposition scenes from seasons 1 and 2, Theon torture porn in season 3, Dorne in season 5, and Winterfell in season 7 were all worse.

      Incest is a word used in Westeros. They said it many times. If that’s a quote from the show you’re using, then flags clearly exist as well.

      Gendry was a bastard and had a bastard’s name. Being recognized was never a condition in the show.

      It makes perfect sense that Arya wouldn’t tell her brother that she has a list of people she wants to kill.

      That one similarity does not make the Starks and the Lannisters the same.

      As for your next two points, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Tyrion knew that his father sacked King’s Landing. And civilians were inside a city under siege before.

      You and countless others like you make the mistake in thinking that Danerys was doing the North a favor by helping them with the White Walker threat. She wasn’t. The White Walkers weren’t solely a Northern problem. They were a problem for all of Westeros, including Danerys. She needed the Starks as much as they needed her. After all, they knew how to kill them, a Stark assisted Danerys in knocking the Night King off his dragon, a Stark used himself as bait to draw the Night King out in the open, and a Stark killed the Night King, saving Danerys, her followers, her dragons, and all of Westeros. Sansa had every right to be displeased that Danerys expected them to give up Northern independence.

      Jon try to tie her hands by having her promise before the reveal. If my brother had me promise not to get mad before revealing he killed my dog, I wouldn’t keep my word either. Sansa broke her vow because she wanted to free the North. Danerys also broke her vow to the master who sold her the Unsullied, and I don’t see anyone blaming her for it.

      As for your Danerys and Jon criticisms, I doubt they’ll be any more convincing than the criticisms you already posted, so feel free.

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    135. Young Dragon,

      I agree with some of what you wrote (the Long Night would be hitting Westeros and all of the world one way or another — as it did during the first Long Night — so it would become a concern for Dany eventually) and I think Sansa had every reason to be wary of Daenerys and pissed at Jon but I think both Daenerys and Sansa could have done better with each other here, re: their attitudes and being more understanding of the other’s position.

      I think it’s understandable for Sansa to not want a queen she barely knows. I think Dany should have allowed time for Sansa to get to know her and not have expectations of immediate approval. Still, Sansa did seem pretty ungrateful for Dany’s help, even as Dany was giving her all to fight a battle defending the realm, including Sansa’s home (yes, Dany had a duty to do so as she was now the North’s queen and wanted to rule this realm but… Sansa was pretty hostile). And I also have a fair few issues with the idea of Northern independence so soon after a war (how could they sustain themselves and rebuild without help?).

      Jon try to tie her hands by having her promise before the reveal. If my brother had me promise not to get mad before revealing he killed my dog, I wouldn’t keep my word either. Sansa broke her vow because she wanted to free the North. Danerys also broke her vow to the master who sold her the Unsullied, and I don’t see anyone blaming her for it.

      These aren’t exactly the same situations though. This was Jon’s information, not Sansa’s, and Jon made it crystal clear he didn’t want to be king. But Sansa went and told anyway for her own purposes, against Jon’s explicit wishes (while I really wanted to see Sansa and Arya’s reactions to R+L=J, I do wish now Jon had not said anything at all). If Jon killed Sansa’s dog, that’d be a wrong done to Sansa and for her to decide what to do with. But Jon had Sansa swear to keep information about his own identity a secret — it’s not Sansa’s information for her to do with what she sees fit. Plus, it could kindle a claimant war.

      As for Dany, that wasn’t exactly the same situation either. The master was a guy enslaving young boys and Dany put an end to that with a trick — and she gave the Unsulled a choice of whether to join her or do whatever they wished with their lives.

      I mean, I think Mango’s right about some of Daenerys’s more volatile qualities always having been there and there are issues I have with some of her actions…. but yeah, I think Sansa wasn’t right to spread Jon’s secret against his wishes. I think Dany wasn’t right to demand Jon keep this from his own family forever. And I think Jon should have kept it to himself — at least until the war was done and he and Dany could have come up with something together. Like discuss a way to nullify a claimant war (starts with an ‘m’…….) ;D

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    136. Ten Bears:
      Wolfish,

      ”I’ll always be sore over the Hound. Not necessarily that he died, although I would have loved to see him live, but how. That entire journey of growth and redemption wasted on dying with FrankenGregor? I know lots of people loved that whole sequence, but to me it was cheesier than County Cheshire. /end rant”

      ——— What??? The Hound died? Say it ain’t so!

      hahahha!

      Funny how few characters came to a fully satisfying end. Somehow Tolkien/Peter Jackson managed the exact opposite.

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    137. Young Dragon,

      Ah, I just realized a possible double standard I may be implying when I said the following! I’ll try to clarify! 🙂 So I’m going to quote myself in order to do so (yikes!):

      Adrianacandle: As for Dany, that wasn’t exactly the same situation either. The master was a guy enslaving young boys and Dany put an end to that with a trick — and she gave the Unsulled a choice of whether to join her or do whatever they wished with their lives.

      I think the difference here, for me, is Dany had yet to do anything that wrong to motivate Sansa into breaking her vow to Jon and spreading his secret (as I said, Sansa has plenty of cause to be wary and unsure of Dany because she doesn’t know her but this seems ill-thought-out on Sansa’s part. How would she win against Dany’s armies and dragons, which out-power the Northern forces, and how would she force Jon to be king against his wishes? There’s no Night King anymore and Jon abdicated in favour of Dany). I agree with you that Dany helping the North wasn’t a straight up-and-up favor (the Night King does concern Dany too and she did expect recompense afterward, per Jon’s pledge) but she did help save Sansa’s bacon and provided what they needed to hold off the wights long enough for Arya to get in the killing blow.

      Whereas, with the master, he had clearly committed quite a few wrongs (like forcibly and cruelling enslaving young boys to sell them as blindly loyal armies) when Dany tricked him to free enslaved soldiers.

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    138. Adrianacandle:
      Young Dragon,

      Ah, I just realized a possible double standard I may be implying when I said the following! I’ll try to clarify! 🙂 So I’m going to quote myself in order to do so (yikes!):

      I think the difference here, for me, is Dany had yet to do anything that wrong to motivate Sansa into breaking her vow to Jon and spreading his secret (as I said, Sansa has plenty of cause to be wary and unsure of Dany because she doesn’t know her but this seems ill-thought-out on Sansa’s part. How would she win against Dany’s armies and dragons, which out-power the Northern forces, and how would she force Jon to be king against his wishes? There’s no Night King anymore, all Jon now wants is peace and he chose to support Dany). I agree with you that Dany helping the North wasn’t a straight up-and-up favor (the Night King does concern Dany too and she did expect recompense afterward, per Jon’s pledge) but she did help save Sansa’s bacon and provided what they needed to hold off the wights long enough for Arya to get in the killing blow.

      Whereas, with the master, he had clearly committed quite a few wrongs (like forcibly and cruelling enslaving young boys to sell them as blindly loyal armies) when Dany tricked him.

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    139. kevin1989:
      mau,

      Funny that when I was in my bubble I loved season 8, and nobody could say otherwise, season 8 was brilliant. But when I looked at the season more objective I saw the mistakes. Not only the haters look at it subjective, also the lovers of season 8. And that you don’t dare to give even one mistake of season 8 and blame the audience for it, is prove of that.

      And about the endings. A friend of my pointed to it that it looked like lotr ending, I though they were crazy but then I watch lotr again and the final again, and they are pretty identical. Destroying the symbolic for evil (Iron throne/ the ring), then a crowning of a king, then we see a ending of the protagonist at a harbor which the main lead leave with. (Frodo and Jon). Don’t forget the book sequence and many more.

      Interesting parallels with the LOTR ending except the LOTR ending flowed from the story easily and logically and gave great satisfaction for the viewers.

      The LOTR team did not try any “gotcha” ending to make the storytellers seem clever at the expense of the audience. They did not frustrate viewers by cutting away from or negating scenes that were to supposed to deliver long awaited emotional payoffs. They did not bring attention to the storyteller (themselves!) by asserting that “people with the best stories are kings” nonsense.

      We should have known this whole affair was going to end badly when Beinoff and Weiss agreed to the selling of Funko dolls of themselves holding scripts. Tasteless. Storytellers directing attention to themselves instead of glorifying the story, the characters and the audience. Oh, look how clever we are!

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    140. Wolfish,

      I am up for suing as well.

      Never watched Star Wars beyond parts of the first installments nearly 200 years ago. When Luke was a dashing young man! After that, zilch.

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    141. Mango,

      D&D were true to their audience by staying true to their story and their characters. They didn’t turn GOT into pure fan service and didn’t give us a Disney ending, which would not have been GOT. As for the rest of your criticisms, they are incredibly vague, but perhaps that’s for the best. Whenever you go into specifics, your criticisms fall apart under the slightest scrutiny.

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    142. Adrianacandle,

      Sansa was hostile because, as you said, it was in Dany’s interest to defeat the White Walkers, but the North still had to pay a hefty price for her help. Of course, without Danerys, the North didn’t stand a chance, but it was true the other way around. Defeating the White Walkers was a team effort, and yet still the North was expected to give up their independence. I do agree, though, that Sansa and Danerys could have done better, but I didn’t see either of them giving any ground. They’re both stubborn.

      I don’t claim to be an expert on such things, but the North had been an independent kingdom for thousands of years before King Torrhen Stark bent the knee. They must have had some way of sustaining themselves.

      I want to be clear and say I don’t blame Danerys for what she did. It’s just, if we’re talking about oaths, she’s broken one as well. Both she and Sansa adopted a “the ends justify the means” attitude. I know some people are upset that Sansa broke her word to Jon, but we’re talking about the independence of an entire kingdom that’s suffered enough at the hands of the South. Her heart was in the right place.

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    143. Young Dragon:
      Mango,

      D&D were true to their audience by staying true to their story and their characters. They didn’t turn GOT into pure fan service and didn’t give us a Disney ending, which would not have been GOT. As for the rest of your criticisms, they are incredibly vague, but perhaps that’s for the best. Whenever you go into specifics, your criticisms fall apart under the slightest scrutiny.

      We disagree as we have done before. Nowhere further to go here.

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    144. Young Dragon,

      Sansa was hostile because, as you said, it was in Dany’s interest to defeat the White Walkers, but the North still had to pay a hefty price for her help. Of course, without Danerys, the North didn’t stand a chance, but it was true the other way around. Defeating the White Walkers was a team effort, and yet still the North was expected to give up their independence. I do agree, though, that Sansa and Danerys could have done better, but I didn’t see either of them giving any ground. They’re both stubborn.

      I 100% agree it was a team effort, absolutely! Defeating the White Walkers together was in the mutual interest for both. But by the time Dany came, the North was no longer independent because Jon had already bent the knee, doing so because he thought Dany would make a good queen for them all. Sansa should be sniping at Jon and giving him the side-eye every two seconds, not Dany.

      I don’t claim to be an expert on such things, but the North had been an independent kingdom for thousands of years before King Torrhen Stark bent the knee. They must have had some way of sustaining themselves.

      Sure, but I don’t know how well an independent North would do now in the immediate post-war situation it was facing (after fighting giant horde when this region was already struggling for food and supplies and had its defenses depleted by half). Sansa was already deeply concerned about food and that was pre-war — if they had systems to sustain themselves, I don’t know if food and resources would have been that big of a problem? It seems things were dire as it was so being part of the 7K would seem to be the best option until the North could find a way to sustain themselves again.

      I think an independent North would be a possibility eventually, after they came up with systems to better sustain themselves. If the North was Dorne or the Reach, independence would be a far greater possibility but it’s not Dorne or the Reach.

      Both she and Sansa adopted a “the ends justify the means” attitude. I know some people are upset that Sansa broke her word to Jon, but we’re talking about the independence of an entire kingdom that’s suffered enough at the hands of the South. Her heart was in the right place.

      That’s true! But I struggle to see the justification for what Sansa did. She was kindling a war she didn’t have the proper means to fight whereas Dany did have the power to win against the slavers of Astapor. And Sansa was using information about somebody else (Jon) to further her goals against his wishes, which is a reason why I think some people were upset. Sansa (unknowingly) validated Dany’s fears.

      I agree, Sansa’s heart was in the right place as her top concern is the safety of the North but this action seemed to be risking the North’s safety should it have come to a war pressing Jon’s claim against Dany’s.

      And none of this is to say Sansa doesn’t make good points, she does! She made a good point about allowing the soldiers rest (and I wish Dany had stayed). However, Dany was not wrong either — Cersei was amassing power to attack (and this is what Sansa herself was concerned about in 701). But you’re right — they’re both stubborn.

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    145. Efi:
      Mango,

      All that you’re saying is corroborating what I’ve explained without getting into details. This is why there are no parallels with Daenerys. There is no such situation in ASOIAF. In the show the discussion is to liberate people from an oppressive monarch (Cersei), not a conqueror. And that’s totally different, it already has many more social connotations; even the masters in Essos are seen as an oppressive social order, not as a conqueror. Cersei’s of her own country, she didn’t “conquer” anything apart from the supreme power in Westeros. GoT (and ASoIaF) play kings and queens against each other, not people.
      This is why I am saying that the parallelism is unfortunate.

      You should still see the movie; it’s one of epic ones of old Hollywood. Of course the western perspective is totally in favor of LoA (romanticizing the war and the Arabs etc only then to be let down) even though not so much of the British.

      (I come from a country that was bitterly let down by it’s supposed western “allies” on that occasion. It resulted in a genocide)

      Armenia?

      I wonder if that is why you so enjoyed Lawrence against the Turks…..just teasing!

      I will watch Lawrence in Arabia when I get a chance. I have some long flights coming up and if that is on the list I will see it then. These days that is my only chance. I hope it is Peter OToole or Burt Lancaster or another of the greats.

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    146. Wolfish:
      OT: I’ve never been much of a Star Wars fan (sue me), but the trailer released today actually has me… kind of excited.

      So how about if Arya and Sandor were riding their horses through the wolf woods and they come across a weirwood tree gate. The tree asks them to tell it the code. Sandor says “Man’s got to have a code”. The gate opens, Sandor and Arya pass through and find themselves on planet tatioone. Star Wars chapter 10 Revenge of the Wolf and the Hound. Great potential in cross over advertising! I can see the action figures now. Girl wants a fathier

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    147. Young Dragon,

      I am only gonna focus on this. It’s clear for me you watched GoT the same as The Young and the Restless (or something similar).
      “Daenerys also broke her vow to the master who sold her the Unsullied, and I don’t see anyone blaming her for it.”
      No. You didn’t get it ! The whole point of what Dany did with the Dragon-Unsullied exchange was to prove that slavery is an unacceptable concept for those who don’t know it. “A dragon is not a slave” (the dragon made no promise). In her mind, she was not exchanging slaves, she was exchanging free people/dragons. The dragon was not hers to sell, the Unsullied were not theirs to be sold. It was not an exchange of properties. That’s why it wasn’t a con or a broken promise/vow. The Unsullied were no longer slaves/property, Missandei was no longer a slave/property – not only that, but she informed Missandei about the possible consequences of her choice… so she can choose knowing the risks. If she chooses to join her, “you know I’m taking you to war…you may be killed”. Missandei: “Valar Morghulis!”
      She also informed the Unsullied through that great speech about what’s to come.
      What a moment !
      Hope you understand why that is a moment to prise Dany, not to blame her !

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    148. Wolfish,

      I’m really looking forward to it, I don’t really know what people hated so much about TLJ tbh. Luke’s withdrawal made sense to me, but obviously not to other people. I just thought everything outside of Rey/Kylo/Luke was a bit boring and silly (Leia in space) that’s my biggest criticism. It was half of a good movie imo.

      I thought it was setting up for a light/dark team up in the end, and that would have been something different in SW, but no, back to the old light vs dark. They talk about balancing the force, it would be cool if they met in the middle. Although it looks like the team up was just delayed until this movie. /end SW chat sorry folks.

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    149. Mango,

      No, not Armenia; there’s more in the area. We’ve had more than 300 thousand dead and about 1,5 million expatriated from Turkey (they fled to various directions), I believe the Armenias had more. Also, my country has been a protectorate of the British but we’ve had our own government since we’ve regained independence. It wasn’t a nice experience to be under such “protection” but it was better than what we’ve had before, lol. Unfortunately, if you get caught up in the empires’ net there’s no escape, so you have to play along.
      But the reason why I enjoyed LoA was probably that I was too young the first time I saw it in the cinema (large screen, it makes all the difference, probably 11 or 12) and it had all those scenes of the desert, red sand and camels and “exotic” scenery and I, being a freak for history even at that age was deeply affected by it (imagined Arabs, Crusaders, etc). That movie falls in the category of great epic movies of Hollywood (like El Sid and The Fall of Rome) but differs since it’s based on real events.

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    150. kevin1989: Well, you can’t just focus on people who share your opinion. Not everyone shares the same opinion or view. And you can hate that or love that. I personally love that. It gives perspective to things hearing other’s opinion. If I only want people around me who share my view on everything I wouldn’t have friends or family anymore. That’s life.

      And what we’re doing here is just debating the show. Which is not against the rules. Back when I was a member of a lost forum. Our community there was 50/50% on the end of lost. Some loved it, some disliked it and had their reasons. I was in the “I loved the end”. But still they didn’t throw out people who disliked the ending. We respected each other’s opinions. We still debate civil with each other. We still talked about other shows, about real life events. And to put the icing on the cake. We even had a meeting where we shared a whole day in real life with a ground of around 15. We talked short about the ending of lost. But we didn’t care that we disagreed. We had fun the rest of the day, with shopping for some (I don’t like it but they did), we drink something on a terrace and we wen’t bowling together. A whole day of having fun together and laughing and acting silly. Even when half disliked the ending of lost, we made a fun day together.

      I guess that’s the difference between this site and LFU… because our LFU community is specifically designed for the “first 50%” and the group is more 90/10 regarding loving the LOST ending compared to not being fond of it (I just set a poll there and I’ll get actual numbers in a couple hours). And funny thing is that there’s very small percentage of members that we actually had to kick out… we only do that if they outright break one of our pinned rules or are straight insulting. For most of the time, problematic members leave on their own because they obviously don’t fit into our community.

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    151. Young Dragon,

      “They didn’t turn GOT into pure fan service and didn’t give us a Disney ending, which would not have been GOT.”

      Sorry to intervene. Imho it was pure fanservice with one sole exception (Daenerys’ killing by Jon, which thinking viewers and book readers had seen it coming) so much so it seemed as if they picked up a Reddit thread and put it to screen. I’ve written about this before, but perhaps it should be briefly revisited:
      – Jon “in love” with Dany (whatever that means -the scripts say it, the screen doesn’t, but they chose to at least hint at it on screen so that they don’t disappoint the fans of the grand romance)
      – Arya hooking up with Gentry
      – Brienne hooking up with Jamie
      – Jon riding the dragon (on Dany’s request –wtf!)
      – Sansa revisiting her previous “relationships” Tyrion/Theon/Sandor (of course, let’s not completely let the boys down! After all, there are many ships out there, Sansa-Tyrion, Sansa-Theon, SanSan)
      – the Lannister brothers thriving. Yeah, they love each other, we got it.
      – Cleganebowl. Don’t get me started.
      – Arya killing the Night King? Even that is a wink to Arya’s fans. (I think TB has someone inside the show, I can’t explain it otherwise, lol)
      – Sansa queen, alone, of course, because the modern world needs strong women alone (in theory; in real life it doesn’t work that way)
      – Bran king, hm! An article I read recenty had it that it was the “triumph of geek culture”. Make of that what you will.
      – Jon exiled -of course; since he killed the mother of dragons, the unltimate fan favorite of all times, he should be punished, forever condemned and alone and away from his home and family, he deserves nothing the horrible criminal of the show, right?
      – and the crown jewel: Tyrion as Hand! Rejoice! The second fan favorite ends up on top, again, never held accountable for his crimes, with a chance to “redeem himself”. After all, he didn’t kill the mother of dragons, right? Never mind that he was the master mind behind the crime.

      Tell me how all that is not fan service. It’s the messy result of them choosing to focus on, and hype Daenerys and Tyrion. It is a betrayal to the inner coherence of the story, no matter what you say.
      I don’t think that any thinking person wanted a fairytale ending (well, apart from those who wanted Jonerys and magic Targ baby). But I think that we all wanted an ending that doesn’t mess with our brains.

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    152. Efi,

      I can imagine the world of wonder of seeing sweep of history ( “reality”) on the big screen at that age.

      You are right about the impact of empires on people. I recently read Salonika that included some descriptions of the massive population swaps/movements in that region as the Ottoman empire broke up. I found it an interesting description of a change and the impact of empire on people and how people suffered. I am about to start Black Lamb and Grey Falcon that is a highly personal account of “history” of the Balkans -just before the outbreak of war.

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    153. Efi,

      I think some of that list appealed to many and were meant to be crowd pleasers but not all.

      I don’t think Bran as king is fan service. Very few people I’ve come across seem pleased with that choice. Even “I Try to Understand Game of Thrones” Steve from the YouTube series I linked above! (That IS a fun series to watch as he wrestles to figure stuff out!)

      I don’t think Jaime and Brienne’s relationship ending was fanservice either. I found it disheartening, Jaime leaving Brienne, who helped bring out the best in Jaime and aided in starting his redemption arc, to go back to his “hateful side” in the form of his addiction love twin Cersei. That was a bummer for me at least. Ditto with Jaime and Cersei dying under bricks.

      You’ve already mentioned it but yeah, I think Jon killing Dany is pretty anti-fan service. Having a popular character killing another popular character, especially when they’re in love, is pretty rough — and after one of those characters becomes an out-and-out villain for the final 1.5 episodes of her arc. Buffy did it back in 1998! But Angel came back after Buffy killed him (Sarah Michelle Gellar herself made the connection on her Instagram ;D) I’m certain some probably predicted it and some probably wanted it, depending on what sect of the fandom you’re in. People have predicted everything across the board! But before 805 (barring the Nissa Nissa theory), I don’t remember this being commonly predicted in the general fandom — especially considering how many were thrown off by Dany’s dark turn.

      I — for one — was certain Jon would die for sure battling the White Walkers because he was already living on borrowed time and that seemed to be why he was brought back, to play a crucial role in the battle for the dawn but… yeah… And I had no idea what was going to happen with Dany.

      I think Cleganebowl was bound to happen, I think that needed to happen to close off those characters’ storylines but I think many wanted this, yes.

      Uh, and yeah, Tyrion got off pretty damn lightly!

      Arya killing the Night King… I’ve spoken my thoughts on that but I’ve seen a divided reaction over it.

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    154. Adrianacandle,

      With Jon, I thought that he would just die after the NK. Like in the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf was sent back to complete his task before going to the Grey Havens. So I thought that the Lord of Light had given him a job, and he was on borrowed time until it was done. He ended up being a mix of Gandalf and Frodo, who completed his task, and was irrevocably changed by it and chose exile/death.

      I was pleasantly surprised by the fact that he lived, but the script basically says that he had nothing left to live for, so it’s still sad. There really wasn’t much to be happy about in the finale, it was just depressing, they forgot the sweet to go along with the bitter. Arya is literally the only character that I can say, yep, she’s going to be alright, and even then her choice to leave Jon for ever broke my heart.

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    155. Jenny:

      With Jon, I thought that he would just die after the NK.Like in the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf was sent back to complete his task before going to the Grey Havens.So I thought that the Lord of Light had given him a job, and he was on borrowed time until it was done.He ended up being a mix of Gandalf and Frodo, who completed his task, and was irrevocably changed by it and chose exile/death.

      I was pleasantly surprised by the fact that he lived, but the script basically says he had nothing left to live for, so it’s still sad.There really wasn’t much to be up beat about in the finale, it was just depressing, they forgot the sweet to go along with the bitter.Arya is literally the only character that I can say, yep, she’s going to be alright, and even then her choice to leave Jon for ever broke my heart.

      Yeah, you’ve really summed up my own thoughts about Jon and the finale really, really well. I feel the same way.

      I too felt Arya received the “sweetest” (or most fitting) ending, free to of her vengeance and not bound to any expectation or role forced upon her, able to explore the world, but her separation from Jon — who’s she’s been yearning to get back to for the whole of the series — also broke my heart.

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    156. Adrianacandle,

      I like to imagine that she travelled North with Jon and took a ship from Eastwatch or something, just to give them some time to catch up minus the impending doom. Sansa…. I just don’t know, I think we are supposed to see her as an Elizabeth I figure maybe? But that means she is in for a life of constant battle with her advisors/allies over her refusal to marry and produce an heir. If she thrives in that situation, I have to respect that, but I didn’t watch her being crowned with a big smile on my face or anything. I just have a hard time seeing the Starks back together, only for them to part. Same for most characters really, human connection was so important in the series, and it’s just gone at the end for one reason or another. It’s the opposite of that joke people make, ‘the real treasure was the friends we made along the way’. In GOT it’s ‘at least we all got great jobs’.

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    157. Jenny: I like to imagine that she travelled North with Jon and took a ship from Eastwatch or something, just to give them some time to catch up minus the impending doom. Sansa…. I just don’t know, I think we are supposed to see her as an Elizabeth I figure maybe? But that means she is in for a life of constant battle with her advisors/allies over her refusal to marry and produce an heir. If she thrives in that situation, I have to respect that, but I didn’t watch her being crowned with a big smile on my face or anything. I just have a hard time seeing the Starks back together, only for them to part. Same for most characters really, human connection was so important in the series, and it’s just gone at the end for one reason or another. It’s the opposite of that joke people make, ‘the real treasure was the friends we made along the way’. In GOT it’s ‘at least we all got great jobs’.

      Yup!

      I hope that for Jon and Arya too! And it is hard to watch them part again, each having to deal with so much of their own pain post-war. That Arya wants to leave (which I can understand), Jon feeling he had nothing left to live for after killing Dany, Sansa ruling alone where Robb had his mother and Jon had his sister… that’s pretty sad.

      Re: Sansa, that was one of my thoughts watching the Sansa coronation scene — just a few episodes prior, Winterfell was filled to the brink with people celebrating the victory against the dead. There was hope, it was warm, and for a moment, everybody was happy and in tandem. Even Dany was smiling for a bit. And now it’s grey and kind of cold again. Where Sansa’s family was once all gathered, she’s now returning alone. That was kind of a punch to my gut…

      As for Elizabeth, I’ve read comparisons between Sansa and Elizabeth before, primarily in the Sansa fandom but because Elizabeth didn’t have an easy life, I hope that’s not Sansa’s future. I hope she’s able to develop a second family in the way Jon did with the Night’s Watch with Sam, Grenn, Pyp, Edd, and all them. It’s no replacement for what’s left of her own family but I don’t want her to be alone.

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    158. Adrianacandle,

      The thing is, now that she is Queen, she will only find people who love her like team Targ loved and admired Dany (God help her). As S8 taught us, it’s just not the same as the love Jon had from his family and brothers of the NW. So yeah, I’ve got myself feeling down now. What did I do that for? Trying to think of something uplifting from S8… failing miserably.

      Brienne getting Knighted! I’ll just think about that, except it’s exactly was I was saying before, she got a great job and the worst heartbreak of her life….. I give up, lol it’s such a bummer.

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    159. Jenny,

      I know!!! Every time I try to think of something happy, I get the counterweight to that happiness in the form of sadness…

      But you’re right regarding Sansa. It’s not quite the same love from family or even the same love Jon had from friends in the Watch or the wildlings season 6-onward — they treat him like one of gang, regardless of who he is or was. But with a queen, yes, it’s different. It’s the love a queen inspires but there’s always a certain level of removal she wouldn’t experience with her own family, with whom there’s that level of comfort. But I do hope she’s able to find a companion like Missandei was to Dany, where there is a closeness. Or she’s able to find… something…

      Yeah, the sadness runs strong….

      Brienne getting Knighted! I’ll just think about that, except it’s exactly was I was saying before, she got a great job and the worst heartbreak of her life….. I give up, lol it’s such a bummer.

      Yes 🙁 And Jaime/Brienne was such a hook for me in the books. I loved them. Brienne was Cersei’s opposite in so many ways.

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    160. Adrianacandle,

      Some would call that bittersweet, wouldn’t they? Not to get dramatic, but it fills me with ennui… having Brienne in her Queensguard would have been something, but no. Oh well.

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    161. You’re in good company 🙁 I didn’t find much sweet myself either, but sadness.

      When you mentioned ‘ennui’, it reminded me of The Gashlycrumb Tinies by Edward Gorey, an illustrated alphabet book of despair.

      K is for Kate who was struck with an axe.

      L is for Leo who swallowed some tacks.

      M is for Maud who was swept out to sea.

      N is for Neville who died of ennui.

      O is for Olive run through with an awl.

      P is for Prue, trampled flat in a brawl.

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    162. Efi,

      I’m so confused by your post

      Fanservice would have been: Jon becoming the One True King and ruling wisely and justly ’till the end of his days with his dragon and wolf beside him after destroying two evil queens.

      Fanservice is not: The most popular heroic character (Jon) being exiled, his status as “true heir” nullified and the 2nd most popular heroic character (Dany) being killed by him

      (Tyrion as hand is a bit fanservicy as is Bronn on the council, but this is GRRM and he loves Tyrion so…)

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    163. Efi: – Sansa queen, alone, of course, because the modern world needs strong women alone (in theory; in real life it doesn’t work that way)

      I’d love to hear you elaborate on this concept that “in real life” strong women cannot rule alone because “it doesn’t work that way”.

      No really please do go on.

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    164. Season 6 will always be my favorite, but I enjoyed season 8 as well. For the sake of making peace on “both sides” I will say the only criticisms I had on season 8 was Rhaegal’s death and Sansa. Rhaegal’s death was necessary, I just wished it was done differently was all. Sansa telling Ned’s secret felt very Little Finger-ish. Sorry guys, I know she’s a lot of people’s favorite, but that one part did bother me though. I had no problem with Dany’s change, I felt the few episodes leading up to it was enough for the transition personally.

      I think this show has some comparisons to LOTR but also has plenty of differences too. LOTR never had a Red Wedding equivalence, rape, or other darker moments and was bound to have a happier, more predictable ending. There weren’t nearly as many gray characters either, at least ones like Sandor or Jaime. I’m about to dive into the books so unless the movies deviated from the novels I can only speak for what I’ve seen on the screen.

      The only real thing that bugs me about the fandom reaction is how much energy people are putting into this. As someone living in the states, I wish more people would be that passionate about real issues in real life. At the end of the day this is just a tv show.

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    165. QueenofThrones,

      I can’t be certain so apologies if I’m totally wrong, but I think Efi is referring to the popular idea that ‘strong women’ in fiction shouldn’t care about relationships of any kind. It’s the whole, ‘she doesn’t need a man’ thing, and if a woman cares about a man, or shows emotion, she is somehow diminished. The only strong woman is an independent/unattached woman, it doesn’t even need to be a romantic.

      Think about the way people reacted to Brienne crying over Jaime, how ‘weak’ it made her look, when it was a perfectly normal response to his imminent death. I saw some people say that it was wrong for her to be romantically interested in him at all because she’s ‘strong’ and she doesn’t need anyone. Kristian Nairn (Hodor) said it on the UK GOT after show. People said the same about Arya now that I think on it.

      Sansa’s ending appeals to that crowd, but in her case, remaining single/refusing to marry for politcal reasons makes perfect sense after what she has been through. It’s the lack of family that makes me sad for her.

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    166. Gfx,

      I don’t think the LoTR ending is that happy either, going to the Grey Havens is basically death, and Frodo was so changed and scarred that he couldn’t find peace with the living anymore. It’s really sad for him (I cry buckets) but most other characters are able to move on and be happy. I was shocked when Gandalf turned around and said ‘come Frodo’. Maybe that’s just me. In the book there is a lot more going on in the Shire when they get back, but you will see, if you get past Tom Bombadil, you will be fine with them.

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    167. Jenny,

      Hmm and to build on that, isn’t it interesting that literally no one makes the same critique about Bran, or Jon ruling without being married! Fascinating!!

        Quote  Reply

    168. Jenny:
      Adrianacandle,

      Lol, that’s such a funny title.I particularly like ‘B is for Basil assaulted by Bears’.Blimey.

      Yes!! I think my favourite panel is the illustration of a boy holding a mystery box with the caption, “T is for Titus, blown to bits.” 🙂

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    169. Jenny,

      I absolutely agree. His ending was shocking and sad. It felt like it was happier in comparison to GRRM’s story though overall. I’m excited to start the books, I’m trying to finish the Witcher novels first but I may just do LOTR in between.

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    170. Gfx,

      Oh it definitely is, you have Eowyn and Faramir together, Legolas and Gimli off on adventures, Aragorn ruling with Arwen (though her eventual fate is sad) Sam and his wife Rosie, I think Merry and Pippin got married (not to each other lol) notice that there are lots of pairs here, not so in GOT, which is why I find it so depressing.

      It wouldn’t be cheating to get the audiobooks you know, they are excellent, Tolkien likes a description or two. GRRM does food, Tolkien does hills, I struggled through the section before Bree, get through that and you’re golden.

      Have you enjoyed the Witcher? I have them on my ‘to read’ list. I’ve only played the game.

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    171. Jenny,

      I actually was going to do the audiobooks! It’s good to have an idea of his writing style in advance.

      I am enjoying Witcher. I’m currently halfway through it. I definitely recommend the first two intro books, The Last Wish and Sword of Destiny. They really help set up the rest of the books. Those two books are also more light and adventurous, reminds me of GRRM’s Dunk and Egg stories.

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    172. When I watch all the times in season 7 and 8 that Queen Daenerys was almost defeated and weakened by following Tyrion’s advice in S7 and Tyrion betraying Daenerys in S8 and Jon not giving Daenerys the support she needed at the time. It is easier to believe Daenerys going crazy and destroying Kings Landing which was being influenced and ruled by Tywin and Cersei Lannister for decades.

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    173. Efi,

      Fans wanted a Jon and Danerys marriage, not simply a romance, and that didn’t happen. Fans wanted an Arya and Gendry marriage, not simply a hookup, and that didn’t happen. Fans wanted a Jaime and Brienne marriage, not simply a hookup, and that didn’t happen. Sansa reuniting with her previous relationships wasn’t fan service. They were all in the same place and had history, so of course they would interact. I don’t know what you mean by “the Lannister brothers thriving.” Fans wanted Jon to kill the Night King, not Arya. No one wanted Bran as king. No one wanted Jon exiled. No one wanted Tyrion as Hand.

      Cleganebowl, Jon riding Rhaegal, and Sansa as queen may be fan service, but you can also say this was the natural progression of the story. To be clear, I don’t mind fan service and absolutely loved Cleganebowl as long as they don’t overdo it.

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    174. QueenofThrones,

      The fandom that is so devoted to Daenerys wouldn’t be pleased at all to see Jon as king. Sending him to exile is a way to take him out of the picture and have an excuse that “he was punished” for his abominable crime to kill the fan favorite mother of dragons. Between those who loved Daenerys and those who loved Jon they preferred the first and the latter had to be pleased with the notion that he effectively became “king beyond the wall” whatever that means.

      Do not confuse the show with the books. The show is in no way proof on how Martin is going to resolve his far too complicated books.

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    175. Young Dragon,

      Well, if Dany’s murder was the single most significant part of the ending, they couldn’t change it no matter how much they wanted to. So they gave bits and pieces of sth that was (not) a romance, while in the books there’s absolutely no indication that Jon will love Daenerys (in fact Jon rejects her stand-in, the wildling princess, as he sees that she’d bring him in conflict with his Stark traditions). They also gave Gentry-Arya and Jamie-Brienne, isn’t that wink enough to the respected fandoms? The first is not happening in the books, while there’s a chance that the second will end up in marriage. But no, they had to give it that way to please the fans, just a little bit. Also, Arya has too many fans out there, so her killing the NK was part of that too. Her fans cheered. (I cheered that moment for different reasons, lol).
      Sansa alone; again, she should have been with someone, whoever that was. Of course, a large part of the fandom believed that Sansa having suffered what she suffered from her numerous fiancees/husbands would have to be alone, to reflect and contemplate that it’s better to be alone alone after all?

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    176. QueenofThrones,

      I didn’t say that “strong women cannot rule alone”.
      Strong women in modern world are not alone. Merkel is married, so is May, and Thatcher before her. It’s a misconception that women in power are alone; they are usually not. Most of them have someone to support them at home. They have husbands and sometimes they have children too.
      The misconception derives imo from the convention that if you’re too focused on career you can’t have a family, or the reversed, that if you have a successful family you don’t have enough time for a career. This basic thought is kind of sexist, as is the fact that in some cases according to where one lives (but imo all women must have faced sth like that), being married adds to woman’s credilibity and public image (this is definitely true for some professions, ie if a woman is in politics).

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    177. firstone,

      True. Good point. I generally agree that it should have been more political; it would have made more sense. Instead they made it look as if she went mad over the “fantastic boyfriend & co”.

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    178. Jenny,

      “in her case, remaining single/refusing to marry for politcal reasons makes perfect sense after what she has been through”

      It’s the butterfly effect. Confounding her story with Jeyne’s story did that.

      Thanks Jenny.

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    179. Lord Parramandas: I guess that’s the difference between this site and LFU… because our LFU community is specifically designed for the “first 50%” and the group is more 90/10 regarding loving the LOST ending compared to not being fond of it (I just set a poll there and I’ll get actual numbers in a couple hours). And funny thing is that there’s very small percentage of members that we actually had to kick out… we only do that if they outright break one of our pinned rules or are straight insulting. For most of the time, problematic members leave on their own because they obviously don’t fit into our community.

      If somebody is insulting I can understand. But you state that some of the people here would have been kicked out of your group, you even stated I remember you of somebody you kicked out. While nobody is here insulting D&D, not me and no others. We don’t talk about who D&D personally are, because nobody here has anything against the guys. They are amazing guys I think, fun to be with, they are great writers. Nobody is denying that here on watchers on the wall. (yes maybe some place else I read such comments but not here, and I just ignore them).
      We are just talking here civil about the things we found missing, or that we feel D&D could handle better, and even that wording you should see that we feel that D&D could give us the best of the best.
      And even giving critic should not be discourage, everyone has the right to their opinion. As long as it’s done civil and it this case, criticizing the show, instead of attacking D&D personally, that should not be tolerated. But you can’t kick people out of a community when they don’t agree with the opinion you’re having about a show. A “you can’t talk negative about the show”-rule should not be a rule that should be implemented, it goes against free speech and the right that everyone has their opinion to express about the show.

      You maybe not agreeing with it, but the hard truth is, you just have to live with it that some don’t like it.

      And if you want some positivity in a comment section, you could always try what Ten Bears always does, just talk about something positive. Something to defuse the tension 😉

      and about that lost-forum I had, even the ones that didn’t like the ending always respected the ones that liked the ending, and were always civil with what they didn’t like. And as a community we were still making fun on the forum. (And personally I found that civil talking also being here on this site)

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    180. Jenny:
      Adrianacandle,

      Some would call that bittersweet, wouldn’t they? Not to get dramatic, but it fills me with ennui… having Brienne in her Queensguard would have been something, but no.Oh well.

      Did you just use the b word?

      Jenny: I don’t think the LoTR ending is that happy either, going to the Grey Havens is basically death, and Frodo was so changed and scarred that he couldn’t find peace with the living anymore. It’s really sad for him (I cry buckets) but most other characters are able to move on and be happy. I was shocked when Gandalf turned around and said ‘come Frodo’. Maybe that’s just me. In the book there is a lot more going on in the Shire when they get back, but you will see, if you get past Tom Bombadil, you will be fine with them.

      Well as someone who have watched the show a lot, and the read the interpretation of the ending that Tolkien and Peter Jackson had. Frodo in fact chose death. The Grey Havens ship is bringing them to a land where they can live eternal, like a heaven for Elves. Even the endsong of Return of the king made that clear. And Gandalf statement what will happen when you die.

      https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/annielennox/intothewest.html

      White shores are coming.

      now I want to see those movies again.

      Jenny,

      Arwen’s story is very sad, her ending.

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    181. Adrianacandle:
      You’re in good company 🙁 I didn’t find much sweet myself either, but sadness.

      When you mentioned ‘ennui’, it reminded me of The Gashlycrumb Tinies by Edward Gorey, an illustrated alphabet book of despair.

      Oh. My. Goodness. Gashlycrumb is one of my favourite books in the world – I also have such a great Edward Gorey calendar that always makes me smile. So awful and hilarious.

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    182. An unexpected Arya treat today…

      I was reading a Samwell chapter and Arya showed up! Yes. It was but for a moment but it gave me the strength to carry on through the myriad of characters that i will have trouble remembering without re-reading one day. Samwell makes a pit stop in Braavos and guess who is pushing a wheel barrow. No one really but you can call her Cat. She was awesome even if it was only for a half a page. I’m still more than 10+ chapters away from the next real Arya chapter but what a great surprise!

      Keeping with this thread a little Sam is on a quest to find out more about dragons at the moment so it will be interesting to see the differences in Dany’s book path. I really do think GRRM will prepare us more for Dany’s turn.

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    183. Mango,

      I did not know about that exchange till I read the amazing book Birds Without Wings, with so many scenes of communities lovers and families being split, sent to live in plaeces where they don’t know the language and know no one there. . Read more about it; there are just too many pig headed stubborn and hateful people in the world and they seem to enjoy having power…

      Jenny,

      There really wasn’t much to be happy about in the finale, it was just depressing, they forgot the sweet to go along with the bitter. Arya is literally the only character that I can say, yep, she’s going to be alright, and even then her choice to leave Jon for ever broke my heart.

      My tin foil ending, after all is said and done, the starks look at each other, say the hell with it, and jump on Arya’s ship. What do they have to lose, anyway?

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    184. Tron79,

      Nice to read your journey once again.

      I like that meet up too. Especially… No I’m not going to say, enjoy reading it, but you’re going to like it what I wanted to type.

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    185. Efi,

      Well, if Dany’s murder was the single most significant part of the ending, they couldn’t change it no matter how much they wanted to. So they gave bits and pieces of sth that was (not) a romance, while in the books there’s absolutely no indication that Jon will love Daenerys (in fact Jon rejects her stand-in, the wildling princess, as he sees that she’d bring him in conflict with his Stark traditions). They also gave Gentry-Arya and Jamie-Brienne, isn’t that wink enough to the respected fandoms? The first is not happening in the books, while there’s a chance that the second will end up in marriage.

      (I’m also sorry for stepping in).

      I agree Dany will be killed by Jon in the books, I really don’t think D&D would do that on their own, but because the books haven’t been written yet, I don’t think there’s any certainty to the other assertions you’ve said here in this quote. The Jon-Dany romance and the hook-ups of Gendry-Arya and Jaime-Brienne may occur in the books as well (I’m not sure what you mean about Jon rejecting Val because she’d bring him conflict with his Stark traditions? He’s attracted to her but doesn’t give in because he’s Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch).

      These relationships may ultimately follow an approximation of the same path in the books. Or there may be differences. We can speculate but I don’t think anything of certainty can be stated about these pairings or plot points until the books are released. The only indications we have at all is what happened on the show since D&D knew GRRM basic outline for his conclusions and interviews revealing what GRRM has said (Alan Taylor on what GRRM’s remarks re: Jon and Dany, D&D revealing GRRM told them there’d be three holy sh!t moments and that Shireen and Hodor were two of them, Bran being king as coming from GRRM).

      But we really can’t know for certain either way or what was a wink to the various fandoms.

      Sansa alone; again, she should have been with someone, whoever that was. Of course, a large part of the fandom believed that Sansa having suffered what she suffered from her numerous fiancees/husbands would have to be alone, to reflect and contemplate that it’s better to be alone alone after all?

      While it’s true some people do want Sansa with somebody and others think she won’t want to be, I don’t think either position is a certainty either or the “best” thing. In real-life, a variety of outcomes occur whether by choice or not. In the books, we don’t know quite what’s going to happen or what will happen with Sansa’s storyline.

      Sending him to exile is a way to take him out of the picture and have an excuse that “he was punished” for his abominable crime to kill the fan favorite mother of dragons.

      This may truly be Jon’s fate in the books (exile), regardless of what the fandom does or doesn’t want. Yes, there are fans who preferred Dany to Jon. There are also fans who preferred Jon to Dany. There are fans upset that Jon didn’t become king of the 7K. There are fans who think Jon should have died with/after Dany. Even what happens to Jon when he escorts the wildlings back home is ambiguous and is a point of debate. But none of this makes Jon’s exile something that’s not happening in the books. We just can’t know for sure :/

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    186. Tron79: Awesome. That’s encouraging! I’ve read so much faster since she showed up!Putting my phone back down now for awhile.

      I just finished the first book again. But I think I read to much this week. Whole book in a week. I’m going to sleep now, seems like a headache is coming up, probably because of too much reading (books, watchersonthewall comments, theories online). Good night everyone. And have a nice read Tron.

        Quote  Reply

    187. Pigeon: Oh. My. Goodness. Gashlycrumb is one of my favourite books in the world – I also have such a great Edward Gorey calendar that always makes me smile. So awful and hilarious.

      Yes!! I love Edward Gorey! And I’d love a calendar! What an uplifting thing to have!! 😉

      There’s also this book that Edward Gorey worked on and is an absolute gem!!

      I really like the tale of the Boy Who Ran Away From His Nurse and Was Eaten By A Lion XD

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    188. Efi,

      It’s clear that romance is GRRM’s idea, because without that relationship the tragic aspect of the endning is gone. Jon would kill just some random war criminal. There is no drama, no tragedy there.

        Quote  Reply

    189. Adrianacandle,

      Gah, correction on this post I made! By “hook-ups”, I was referring strictly to the intercourse we got between Genry-Arya and Brienne-Jaime in season 8. I think Brienne-Jaime is already on its way to being a romance in the books and it may culminate the same way. I would love for Jaime-Brienne to happen. I would not love for it to end the same way but alas…

      Don’t know about Gendry and Arya getting married. I think Arya’s destiny is to escape society’s roles and find freedom with exploration, I think she will end up as an Elissa Farman-type character.

        Quote  Reply

    190. Efi,

      This is really some mental gymnastic you are using. Jon Snow’s ending wasn’t fan service at all. If it was, a lot of his fans wouldn’t be angry.

      And to be totally honest, saying that S8 was fan service is ridiculous. If it was, there wouldn’t be any backlash lol. People would react like they did with S6.

      Every fan theory and every shipping was killed by S8. It was the exact opposite of fan service and reaction from audience is the best proof for that.

        Quote  Reply

    191. Adrianacandle: Yes!! I love Edward Gorey! And I’d love a calendar! What an uplifting thing to have!! 😉

      There’s also this book that Edward Gorey worked on and is an absolute gem!!

      I really like the tale of the Boy Who Ran Away From His Nurse and Was Eaten By A Lion XD

      So good! I also love British detective shows/mysteries, and on Masterpiece Mystery they always start out with Gorey-esque characters swooning around – it’s the best. 😆

        Quote  Reply

    192. Efi,

      You conveniently ignored the fact that all those love stories ended badly. I don’t think that anyone who was shipping Jaime and Brienne wanted him to fuck her once and just leave her for Cersei. So that was fan service those shippers wanted? Lol

      Jaime and Tyrion talking is now fanservice? Sansa talking to the Hound? And Bran the Broken is fan servive? Lol

      I mean, I think anyone can criticize S8. But saying that the problem is that it was fan service is really nonsensical. You are just reaching.

      Jonerys ending wasn’t the only theory that ended with disappointment. You also have Jaime and Brienne shippers, Jonsa shipper, Sansa and Hound shippers, the one who believed in Night King being a Stark, the one who believed in Bran being the Night King, the one who believed that Jon is Azor Ahai, the one who wanted Jaime to be Azor Ahai, the one who believed Jon is going to be the Queen.

      Every theory just dead.

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    193. mau: the one who believed Jon is going to be the Queen

      I have seen theories postulating Jon was the “younger-more-beautiful” queen to cast Cersei down 😉 (j/k!)

      (On second thought, I bet some had those theories…)

        Quote  Reply

    194. Pigeon: So good! I also love British detective shows/mysteries, and on Masterpiece Mystery they always start out with Gorey-esque characters swooning around – it’s the best. 😆

      I agree! That kind of dark, turn of the (20th) century melancholic (or sinister?) gloominess reminding you of certain doom.

      Speaking of fun nursey rhymes for children that take on… a twist… have you ever heard of Spacechild’s Mothergoose? It’s a 1950s book of nursey rhymes written for kids combining poetry…. and science XD (My dad’s a physicist and most of my friends are engineers…. Meanwhile, I’m…. not…)

      I think this is my favourite and given we are speaking about theories, I present “The Theory Jack Built” 😉

      This is the Theory Jack built.
      This is the Flaw
      That lay in the Theory Jack built.
      This is the Mummery
      Hiding the Flaw
      That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
      This is the Summary
      Based on the Mummery
      Hiding the Flaw
      That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
      This is the Constant K
      That saved the Summary
      Based on the Mummery
      Hiding the Flaw
      That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
      This is the Erudite Verbal Haze
      Cloaking Constant K
      That saved the Summary
      Based on the Mummery
      Hiding the Flaw
      That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
      This is the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
      That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
      Cloaking Constant K
      That saved the Summary
      Based on the Mummery
      Hiding the Flaw
      That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
      This is the Chaotic Confusion and Bluff
      That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
      That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
      Cloaking Constant K
      That saved the Summary
      Based on the Mummery
      Hiding the Flaw
      That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
      This is the Cybernetics and Stuff
      That covered Chaotic Confusion and Bluff
      That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
      That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
      Cloaking Constant K
      That saved the Summary
      Based on the Mummery
      Hiding the Flaw
      That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
      This is the button to Start the Machine
      To make with the Cybernetics and Stuff
      To cover Chaotic Confusion and Bluff
      That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
      That thickened the Erudite Verbal Haze
      Cloaking Constant K
      That saved the Summary
      Based on the Mummery
      Hiding the Flaw
      That lay in the Theory that Jack built.
      This is the Space Child with Brow Serene
      Who Pushed the Button to Start the Machine
      That made with the Cybernetics and Stuff
      Without Confusion, exposing the Bluff
      That hung on the Turn of a Plausible Phrase
      And, shredding the Erudite Verbal Haze
      Cloaking Constant K
      Wrecked the Summary
      Based on Mummery
      Hiding the Flaw
      And Demolished the Theory that Jack built.

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    195. Iul,

      Oh, I don’t blame Danerys in the slightest for breaking her word, and she did break her word. I don’t blame Sansa for breaking her word to Jon, either. They both were simply trying to free their people.

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    196. Adrianacandle: I have seen theories postulating Jon was the “younger-more-beautiful” queen to cast Cersei down (j/k!)

      (On second thought, I bet some had those theories…)

      Yep, Jon did seem particularly queenly!

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    197. Adrianacandle: This was Jon’s information, not Sansa’s, and Jon made it crystal clear he didn’t want to be king. But Sansa went and told anyway for her own purposes,

      I believe you’re projecting our modern respect for the individual upon a feudal society. In a feudal society (as Tywin Lannister seemingly exists to pound into our silly little heads) family means everything, and the individual is just a pawn to advance the family. (Arranged marriages for family advantage were the norm for feudal Houses in real Dark Age Europe, and the same thing happened on Westeros to Lyssa Arryn, Cersei Lannister, and Sansa Stark, among others.)

      “Jon Snow” is actually a true born member of House Stark, and according to Dany’s own logic, Aegon VI Targ’ should be the One True King of Westeros, Ruler of the Andals and the First Men (cue dying King Robert’s groan, “all the titles, all the titles”). Sansa, knowing this, spreads the information, to the gain of House Stark and The North. Per feudal norms, she has not just the right to do this, she has an obligation to do so, because so doing protects both her House and The North.

      Efi: Do not confuse the show with the books. The show is in no way proof on how Martin is going to resolve his far too complicated books.

      Martin has already stated the show’s ending is his ending for the major characters. For him, the major characters are Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion, and Bran. Therefore we know he will have Jon kill Dany, Arya depart for lands unknown, Tyrion become Hand to Bran, and Jon to become King-Beyond-The-Wall. (How he gets them to those end points is his business, should he ever get around to it.)

      His leitmotif in ASoIaF subverts tropes and confounds expectations. Bran Stark will become a crippled King, not a crusading knight or great lord. Ned Stark is a false protagonist. His son Robb fails at avenging his death. Dany is a false Romantic Hero, to be revealed as a Tragic Hero (and final Big Bad for Jon to dispatch). The Others were an existential threat, to give meaning to otherwise pointless squabbles over the Iron Throne; the Dead were never going to be the final enemy. Jon Snow was never really a bastard. Jon Snow’s final conflict was always going to be love vs. duty.

      Over and over and over, Martin played us, and we loved him for it. Only when it turned out he was playing us for real, that he would never let his story become fantasy cliche, did some of us revolt. But by then, it was too late.

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    198. Pigeon,

      Have you by any chance seen Jonathan Creek? It’s so so 90’s but I love it, it’s my favourite ‘detective’ show. He actually designs the tricks for an American illusionist in London, that’s how he can work out the whodunnit.

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    199. Mango: Yep, Jon did seem particularly queenly!

      Especially the raven black pin curls blowing gently in the wind! Very regal, very jealous! 👌

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    200. Adrianacandle,

      I’ve never heard that, thank you! 😊 I love those kind of add-as-you-go type of poems. Especially as I have the memory of a sieve, they help me memorize. I used to be able to memorize an incredible amount of information, until my last year of high school I got very sick for months, and afterwards couldn’t retain a thing. University was a pretty big challenge after THAT, let me tell you! 🤪

      I’ve actually found a lovely heroine of fiction in Alan Bradley’s series of Flavia de Luce….an 11/12 year old chemistry whiz with a penchant for stumbling across murders in the towns surrounding her crumbling family estate in England in the 40s/50s. It’s so escapist and reminds me of how much I loved reading Harriet the Spy and other books of that sort as a kid. ❤

      Um…anyway….how to connect this to GoT….ah! Arya is like Flavia in her curiousity and tenavity, although not the chemistry part. And much more violence. And, uh, not with a sleepy village life. I’ll stop now.

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    201. Jenny:
      Pigeon,

      Have you by any chance seen Jonathan Creek?It’s so so 90’s but I love it, it’s my favourite ‘detective’ show.He actually designs the tricks for an American illusionist in London, that’s how he can work out the whodunnit.

      Jonathan Creek! Yes! Alan Davies is fabulous (as are most of the cast!) To be fair, most of my favourites started back in the 90s or even 80s, and I’ve watched them on PBS or Knowledge in the past decade. Midsomer Murders, Morse, Rosemary and Thyme, Lewis, Frost, Endeavour (sigh), and good ol Poirot and Miss Marple (imagine playing Poirot for 25 years – some of these actors must feel they are part the character!). And the best Sherlock of all time (imo of course), the wonderful Jeremy Brett. Le sigh.

      Also, likely over half of the Game of Thrones cast is in those shows at some point. It’s like the U.S. Law & Order, a rotating appearance of actors.

        Quote  Reply

    202. Pigeon,

      I have a special relationship with Rosemary and Thyme, who would hire those people to do their garden? Someone dies on every job! It’s so funny. You wouldn’t invite Poirot and Marple to a house party either. My tinfoil hat theory about Midsomer murders, is that all of the murders are committed by Mrs Barnaby, every time she joins a club, someone dies, I’m on to her.

      I love Poirot and Sherlock Holmes (Jeremy Brett of course) I grew up watching them these because my parents did back in the day. I wasn’t keen on Kenneth Branagh as Poirot in the movie, what was that moustache about? I just can’t accept someone other than David Suchet.

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    203. mau,

      You’re right, I am reaching. It’s stretching interpretations as much as one can stretch them. But it is my impression that they tried to please each and every corner of the fandom and still bring it to a reasonable conclusion. It’s like they gave a little piece of cheese to each and every little mouse in the room but no mouse got the whole wheel of cheese.
      And with a tiny little bit of course none of the fandoms was pleased, while the endings of the separate stories felt hollow, or, to others, open. For example, Jon might still return after receiving amnesty, Sansa might find a good boy to marry and Arya and Gentry might still find each other after years.

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    204. Adrianacandle,

      Val goes together with Stannis’ offer to Jon. If Jon accepts it, it means the burning of the heart tree. The heart tree is not just a tree, it represents the Stark values and way of living. Jon rejects that offer because of its wider significance, namely the betrayal of his own family. Actually I hadn’t thought about this before, but it fits nicely with what Jon does in the show, turning against Dany for his family.

      But, anyway, I meant to ask you and Jenny this:

      Do you know of that rumor/spoiler that came out (or was floating around long before?) sometime while season 8 was playing or immediately after the final episode, according to which Martin and the producers had allegedly agreed on an ending in which Jon was king and Jamie was his hand, married to Brienne? Following this “spoiler”, it was demanded by the lords of Westeros to make Jamie Hand because he’s one who’d have no scruples killing a king if he abused his powers, and his marriage to Brienne was meant to unite large parts of the South -Casterly Rock and the Stormlands. Apparently, the “spoiler” had it, Martin was really upset when he realized that the ending wasn’t that ending which was agreed upon long ago.

      Personally I don’t believe such rumors/alleged spoilers because they seem to derive from pure fanfiction. This particular one seems to completely ignore Jamie’s bad reputation and in-universe after Daenerys’ murder I’m not sure how it would work with two murderers at the highest positions of Westeros. But I’m suspicious though for particular reasons.

      There’s too much talk in the books about Jamie becoming Hand. His father wanted it, Cersei wanted it, he keeps rejecting it.
      And there’s foreshadow: the Hands in the books wear a chain of office around their neck, not a pin as it is in the show; Jamie, once his hand was severed, wore his hand around his neck. There’s even a piece of dialog from the books that made it to the show.
      The show also made sure to include a unique scene that doesn’t exist in the books, the only one where Jamie and Jon interact personally, after the royal escort has made it to WF. They meet in the courtyard and Jamie wants to shake Jon’s hand because of the services he’s decided to provide to the NW. This was a filler scene that had no reason being there and we could do without.
      The show also added the scene where Jamie on his way to Dorne passes by Tarth, and sees how marvellous the island is, clearly thinking of Brienne. This was again a scene that wasn’t necessary; we could have watched Jamie arriving at Dorne and nothing would have been missing.

      Jamie’s role shall be crucial for the defeat of the Others and saving WF, as per his dream. Perhaps he’s meant to die at WF, since the fire of his sword goes out, while Brienne’s keeps burning. But that dream is weird, because Rhaegar appears in it with the whole company of kings guards including Arthur Dayne (who was guarding Jon at the moment of his death), and Jamie has given a promise to Rhaegar, one that he didn’t keep, namely to protect his children. The dream is not just about WF, it’s about Jon in my appreciation. And of course we shouldn’t forget that Jamie and Brienne have the two pieces of the sword of heroes, Ice. If Brienne’s is connected with the girls, Sansa and Arya, Jamie’s must be connected with Jon via his promise to Rhaegar and/or perhaps with the girls too via his promise to Catelyn. In the books, it appears that the Starks will have their own kings guards.

      It also impresses me how similar, or parallel, Jon and Jamie are in the books. The fact that they’ve both been marked by the gods to fight against the Others is very significant. Jamie lost his hand on a tree (and trees are connected to the old gods) while Jon’s hand has been burned by fire. Jon will be resurected by the god of fire but he’ll be alive because of the old gods, since he’ll have lived inside Ghost, of whom he thinks “he belongs to the old gods this one”. Add Bran to the puzzle, who’s been claimed by the old gods too to become… sth, an event that Jamie initiated, and we have the golden triad that will end the threat of the Others.

      This last part was completely ignored in the show, which preferred to have Jamie fight with Brienne in the long night instead of fighting for Bran and him and Jon bringing the Others to an end. It seems as if Jamie arriving at WF was of absolutely no significance apart from pushing Dany further down the dark side and taking Brienne’s virginity, since it was presented as his personal decision to be there, one that he has taken a few days ago, not as a choice that fulfills a serious promise that is an inherent element of his personality, or rounding up his character and the ensemble of what makes up Jamie’s “code of honor”. Jamie arriving at WF was almost a random event in the show.
      While the show very carefully laid all the foreshadow found in the books, they decided not to go down that path (if ever that was an option, as the rumor/spoiler claims).

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    205. Efi,

      Yes, I saw that rumour, I never believed it because I thought Jon and Jaime were going to die, Jaime was 100% dead, Jon was 60%. I knew Dany wouldn’t be Queen, but I also knew that they wouldn’t kill both of them, so it was one or the other, but I was leaning toward Jon. I knew for sure that Dany wouldn’t be Queen when she started banging on about breaking the wheel without any indication of what that actually meant. Breaking the wheel isn’t restoring an old dynasty.

      Efi:
      Adrianacandle,

      There’s too much talk in the books about Jamie becoming Hand. His father wanted it, Cersei wanted it, he keeps rejecting it. And there’s foreshadow: the Hands in the books wear a chain of office around their neck, not a pin as it is in the show; Jamie, once his hand was severed, wore his hand around his neck. There’s even a piece of dialog from the books that made it to the show.

      The show also made sure to include a unique scene that doesn’t exist in the books, the only one where Jamie and Jon interact personally, after the royal escort has made it to WF. They meet in the courtyard and Jamie wants to shake Jon’s hand because of the services he’s decided to provide to the NW. This was a filler scene that had no reason being there and we could do without.

      One of the directors said that we should take special notice of that Jon and Jaime scene, because it would be relevant one day….. where? Why? If it was, it was dropped.

      The show also added the scene where Jamie on his way to Dorne passes by Tarth, and sees how marvellous the island is, clearly thinking of Brienne. This was again a scene that wasn’t necessary; we could have watched Jamie arriving at Dorne and nothing would have been missing.

      The island thing is a total mystery, he is thinking of Brienne, then later (might even be the same episode) Bronn asks how he wants to die, he says ‘in the arms of the woman I love’ this is now considered foreshadowing, but given the timing, are we meant to think that this was always a reference to Cersei? Ok then.

      Then there is this scene, written by GRRM, I think it was his last episode.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF2vCrn7TXo&

      Who walks across the screen after Loras tells Jaime he will never marry Cersei? Is that the Bear and the Maiden fair playing in the background? I’m obviously stupid because it meant nothing. We got about half of Jaime’s plot on screen and the rest of your post just depresses me lol. It’s TV, things get dropped and change along the way. It is what it is, I look at it as hints for the books more than anything, the TV show is its own thing and for the most part I’m fine with that. Jaime returning to Cersei after death threat? I’m less fine about that.

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    206. mau: ove Edward Gorey! And I’d love a calendar! What an uplifting thing to have!! 😉

      There’s also this book that Edward Gorey worked on and is an absolute gem!!

      I really like the tale of the Boy Who Ran Away From His Nurse and Was Eaten By A Lion XD

      Agree here. But I wonder how that will be in the books. How we go there, if the love is from both sides, but the love is 100% on Dany’s side. I only don’t think that love will be that long in the books. I think it will start after the defeat of the White Walkers (Dany saves the day), the love blossoms and Jon and the north help Dany get the throne, which ends the same as in the show, around that time the truth bomb of Jon will be revealed, like the show. I think the timing will be different in the book.

      I think a big give-away is when she is in the house of the undying and she get’s her 3 mounts you must ride. It ends with:
      A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . .

      A blue flower in a wall of ice, refers to Lyanna, and Jon is her son.

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    207. Efi,

      I have fallen foul of the lord of light and my posts keep getting removed, or not posting at all, hopefully they don’t all appear on here and clutter the place. I tried to link a video and I think it is unhappy about that, so i’ll take it out and get descriptive instead when I have time later.

      To answer your question, Yes, I saw that rumour, I never believed it because I thought Jon and Jaime were going to die, Jaime was 100% dead, Jon was 60%. I knew Dany wouldn’t be Queen, but I also knew that they wouldn’t kill both of them, so it was one or the other, but I was leaning toward Jon. I knew for sure that Dany wouldn’t be Queen when she started banging on about breaking the wheel without any indication of what that actually meant. Breaking the wheel isn’t restoring an old dynasty. So really, I should have known it was curtains for her.

        Quote  Reply

    208. Efi,

      Do you know of that rumor/spoiler that came out (or was floating around long before?) sometime while season 8 was playing or immediately after the final episode, according to which Martin and the producers had allegedly agreed on an ending in which Jon was king and Jamie was his hand, married to Brienne?[…]

      I kind of do remember this but I remember a lot of fake leaks on Reddit and some fake interviews that were debunked by Elio Garcia. There was this fake Spanish interview with GRRM which tried to debunk his actual interview with Meduza because the “interviewer” disliked with GRRM said in it XD;;

      Val goes together with Stannis’ offer to Jon. If Jon accepts it, it means the burning of the heart tree. The heart tree is not just a tree, it represents the Stark values and way of living.

      I believe the heart tree represents even more than the Stark values and way of life to Jon as well! The heart tree is representative of his very faith and Jon is quite devout in the books. He’s not a religious nut case like Selyse and isn’t advocating for human sacrifice like Melisandre but he places quite a bit of reverence in the Old Gods. And he believes the Old Gods sent the direwolves to him and the Stark kids. So to burn down the weirwood for Jon would be to burn down a big part of his own beliefs, values, and who he himself is — even beyond the Starks, but rather part of his core and Jon (like Ghost) has always been a bit removed from the pack.

      Not that I think Jon would consider taking Winterfell if he knew one of his siblings was still alive but at that point, he believed he was the only one left. But that’s not just the Stark way, that’s the Westerosi way 😉 However, the Starks do (traditionally) observe the faith of the Old Gods. It’s only with Catelyn that Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon’s faiths are divided.

      As for Val, yes, marriage to Val comes with the offer of Winterfell and Jon turns them both down. But Jon still really really likes Val (and Val likes him). Val overtly flirts with him, even inviting him to sleep with her but Jon turns her down because he’s Lord Commander.

      So though, yes, Jon has turned down a marriage to Val by virtue of rejecting Stannis’s offer of Winterfell, he could have still had a secret sexual relationship with Val if he let himself (Sam pointed out the sex loophole in the vows ;D But I think Sam was kind of desperate…). I can’t really see much of a connection between what happens with Jon’s relationship with Val vis a vis what will come of his relationship with Dany but I don’t know for certain. Maybe there is! I just know, per Alan Taylor, it’s going to be significant and seems to be heading toward a union of sorts.

      The show also added the scene where Jamie on his way to Dorne passes by Tarth, and sees how marvellous the island is, clearly thinking of Brienne. This was again a scene that wasn’t necessary; we could have watched Jamie arriving at Dorne and nothing would have been missing.

      I think it was a nice added touch because it did touch on Jaime’s feelings for Brienne, which was a nice contribution to the development of that relationship.

        Quote  Reply

    209. Efi,

      I think that is a really cool theory re: Jaime and his role in the battle against the Others and I like the idea of Jon/Jaime/Bran being a triad of sorts that will defeat the Long Night. I do think he’s going to die with Cersei though

      This last part was completely ignored in the show, which preferred to have Jamie fight with Brienne in the long night instead of fighting for Bran and him and Jon bringing the Others to an end.

      I think the war against the dead will play out quite a bit differently in the books since there’s so much to deal with there and the show didn’t even really touch on the lore, mystery, and prophecies associated with it during this story’s conclusion. There’s not even a Night King in the books (there’s a Night’S King but not the leader-of-the-White-Walkers-Night-King).

      It seems as if Jamie arriving at WF was of absolutely no significance apart from pushing Dany further down the dark side and taking Brienne’s virginity, since it was presented as his personal decision to be there, one that he has taken a few days ago, not as a choice that fulfills a serious promise that is an inherent element of his personality, or rounding up his character and the ensemble of what makes up Jamie’s “code of honor”. Jamie arriving at WF was almost a random event in the show.

      I myself think that was the significance and myself, I appreciated Jaime’s line: “I promised to fight for the living. I intend to keep that promise.” I think there was something awesome about that because Jaime, this known notorious oathbreaker, is keeping the oath his sister publicly broke. Jaime is now deciding to go against Cersei to do the right thing, which I found was a great touch.

      Of course, two episodes later, Jaime goes back to Cersei. @#$%!&.

      ANYWAY.

      I agree there are parallels between Jon and Jaime and Elio Garcia (who worked with GRRM and co-wrote The World of Ice & Fire with him) spoke about some of them in a June 2019 review of Game of Throne’s endgame here:

      I think I wrote an article for tor.com during the first season and I’ve compared Jamie and Jon a lot as being paralleled characters and that, as young men, they had vows and they had very different understandings. Jamie was told a very rigid — like all the vows, he had to maintain all of them– and he couldn’t and he basically discarded them rather than try to do that. Jon learns from Qhorin Halfhand that the whole purpose of the vows is for defending the realms of men. That’s it. Like, if you have to break all the other vows, if it defends the realms of men, you do it.

      And then they go into how this will figure into Jon’s decision with Dany.

      It is an interesting video to watch. They go over how they think Dany burning KL will go down, her death, and to that end, they also mentioned another interesting piece, re: Jon, Dany, and the Others that I had totally forgotten. When Maester Aemon leaves Castle Black, he tells Jon:

      “Lord Snow,” Maester Aemon called out, “I left a book for you in my chambers. The Jade Compendium. It was written by the Volantene adventurer Colloquo Votar, who traveled to the east and visited all the lands of the Jade Sea. There is a passage you may find of interest. I’ve told Clydas to mark it for you.”

      “I’ll be sure to read it.”

      Maester Aemon wiped his nose. “Knowledge is a weapon, Jon. Arm yourself well before you ride forth to battle.”

      “I will.”

      And when Jon reads it, Jon finds the legend of Nissa Nissa. So they talk about that and the endings of the other characters like Sansa (73:43), Arya, etc. and what they think will happen in the books.

      But warning, they’re not fans of the show, I think they ended up souring on it around season 4(?). Still, some of their speculations are fun to listen to.

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    210. Pigeon:
      Adrianacandle,

      I’ve never heard that, thank you! 😊 I love those kind of add-as-you-go type of poems. Especially as I have the memory of a sieve, they help me memorize. I used to be able to memorize an incredible amount of information, until my last year of high school I got very sick for months, and afterwards couldn’t retain a thing. University was a pretty big challenge after THAT, let me tell you! 🤪

      I’ve actually found a lovely heroine of fiction in Alan Bradley’s series of Flavia de Luce….an 11/12 year old chemistry whiz with a penchant for stumbling across murders in the towns surrounding her crumbling family estate in England in the 40s/50s. It’s so escapist and reminds me of how much I loved reading Harriet the Spy and other books of that sort as a kid. ❤

      Um…anyway….how to connect this to GoT….ah! Arya is like Flavia in her curiousity and tenavity, although not the chemistry part. And much more violence. And, uh, not with a sleepy village life. I’ll stop now.

      Oh my god, I’m so sorry, Pigeon. That must have been so, so, so rough. How is it now? Did it improve?

      I’ll check that out! Flavia de Luce! And yes, I can see the parallels between Flavia to Arya! 😉 Arya may be no chemist but she is… inventive… with the violence. I mean, the Frey pie thing takes creativity!

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    211. Oh crap, my original post appeared, I’m sorry if it appears again, I tried to resubmit, so it might, how embarrassing. That Jaime/Tarth island thing, lol I have just exposed myself as a clown. I really thought the twist would be Jaime dying in Brienne’s arms. Turns out, there was no twist, he really was talking about Cersei, the conversation just happened to take place after he was giving heart eyes to Tarth. That’s cold GOT.

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    212. kevin1989,

      My thinking is that it will be mutual — it needs to be for that dramatic, tragic aspect. And it’s kind of a continuation of Ygritte — where Jon is haunted by Ygritte’s death and in his dreams, it was his arrow that killed her (though, in reality, it wasn’t), Dany’s death will be truly at his hands. I read a few comments in other places about how 90s this lover-killing-lover trope was and it kind of is (I’ve already mentioned Buffy 100 times). “Bride of fire” also sticks out to me.

      But I don’t know. Interpreting passages like this is so tricky. I think they’re heading the same way in the books as on the show.

      I still need to go over your posts in the other thread!

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    213. Jenny:
      Oh crap, my original post appeared, I’m sorry if it appears again, I tried to resubmit, so it might, how embarrassing.That Jaime/Tarth island thing, lol I have just exposed myself as a clown.I really thought the twist would be Jaime dying in Brienne’s arms.Turns out, there was no twist, he really was talking about Cersei, the conversation just happened to take place after he was giving heart eyes to Tarth.That’s cold GOT.

      Yup 🙁 I really believed Jaime would die in Brienne’s arms too….

      Stupid, stupid feelings. It’s better to not hope at all 🙁

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    214. Adrianacandle,

      Thankfully, this is the only plot that I let myself hope for. I was pretty casual about the rest of it, I had a few ideas but nothing set in stone. That didn’t make me like S8 any better, because I had a whole host of problems about things I didn’t even care about. But, I’ve covered those at length, no need to do it again.

        Quote  Reply

    215. Jenny:
      Adrianacandle,

      Thankfully, this is the only plot that I let myself hope for.I was pretty casual about the rest of it, I had a few ideas but nothing set in stone.That didn’t make me like S8 any better, because I had a whole host of problems about things I didn’t even care about.But, I’ve covered those at length, no need to do it again.

      Yeah, and that was wise. I cared about just about a lot of the storylines and …. ouch 🙁

      I remember somebody telling me when I first started AOIAF and GRRM was being referred to as “Evil Santa”, not to get invested. I should have listened T___T

        Quote  Reply

    216. Tensor the Mage, Who Would Love to Have A Statue of Julius Caesar Wearing A Wristwatch: I believe you’re projecting our modern respect for the individual upon a feudal society. In a feudal society (as Tywin Lannister seemingly exists to pound into our silly little heads) family means everything, and the individual is just a pawn to advance the family. (Arranged marriages for family advantage were the norm for feudal Houses in real Dark Age Europe, and the same thing happened on Westeros to Lyssa Arryn, Cersei Lannister, and Sansa Stark, among others.)

      “Jon Snow” is actually a true born member of House Stark, and according to Dany’s own logic, Aegon VI Targ’ should be the One True King of Westeros, Ruler of the Andals and the First Men (cue dying King Robert’s groan, “all the titles, all the titles”). Sansa, knowing this, spreads the information, to the gain of House Stark and The North. Per feudal norms, she has not just the right to do this, she has an obligation to do so, because so doing protects both her House and The North.

      Sure, and I’m certainly coming at it from a moral standpoint. But I do think it was a betrayal of Jon. Sansa audibly swore a vow to Jon, who is also her Warden of the North and she broke it. And Jon abdicated in favour of Dany’s claim. I think those two things would also still have meaning in a feudal society.

      And there’s also that Sansa didn’t have the military power to fight a war against Dany and be victorious, unintentionally putting a big target on Jon’s back and potentially risking the North. Dany has more military power and if she wins, which I think would be likely, it would have done quite a bit of damage to the North — especially what’s left of their forces and resources to wage a war. Sansa (unknowingly) ended up validating Dany’s fears and if Dany didn’t love Jon, if Jon had been anyone else, Jon would be toast.

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    217. Adrianacandle,

      I think it’s human to get invested in certain characters and story lines. I can understand wanting to see Jaime in Brienne’s arms instead of him going to a dark place of never being able to let his sister obsession go. Back to the book. GRRM must really enjoy coming up with so many minor characters. I think people do want to get invested in a few characters like you did with Brienne. My brain is hurting trying to keep up with all of the minor characters now and I just gave myself permission to not worry about remembering them all. GRRM has an extended index in the back of all of the characters and I have had to use it a few times to figure out who he was talking about! I think D&D did a great job helping the viewer focus on a few POVs. It was still a lot but they really condensed things to help the viewer. But GRRM is character happy in these books (especially in these last two). That’s how I’m feeling at the moment. I am loving the main story more now that I gave myself permission to not try to remember all the minor characters. Some are even from the same family with the same last name that makes it harder to remember who’s who.

      With Dany I had higher hopes for her in the show as I am sure Emilia had higher hopes. She was a child who became an extremely strong woman who was constantly underestimated. And at the height of her power saving Jon meant more to her than the iron throne. She gave up everything to save Jon. So I can see how her turn to madness or whatever you want to call it doesn’t sit well with many. I can think of lots of better ways for her story to end but my guess is GRRM is planning on her becoming a monster in the books too. There has been foreshadowing in my book journey even though she says she doesn’t want to become a monster. In the end I think GRRM is too much of a fan of the lord of the rings and there are too many parallels with how the iron throne corrupts and is like the ring.

      Only about 100 more pages to the next Arya chapter!

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    218. Adam,

      I’ve watched 5 or 6 videos and their criticisms were all the same. Maybe I didn’t catch the videos you are talking about, but from what I’ve seen, the vast majority of criticisms for season 8 have been incredibly weak. As for the military expert, I don’t know how his or her expert opinion applies to a battle set in a fantasy world that involves ice zombies, dragons, witches, and Faceless assassins.

      I suggest your friend rewatches LOTR and other Hollywood movies. They rarely end with a fan favorite character burning down a city and slaughtering thousands of innocent people.

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    219. Tron79,

      That’s true!

      I was warned and I remember rolling my eyes and being all, “Pfft. Losers,” AND NOW NINE YEARS LATER, HERE WE ARE. 💔💔💔

      😉

      And yes! I didn’t expect for things to end happily, not for Jaime-Brienne, Jon-Dany, or any couple really (well, maybe Sam and Gilly have a chance…) but I didn’t expect for it to go down so… bitterly…

      But I was warned…

      Re: loads and loads of POV characters. I know!! I think GRRM loves setting stuff up, like all these plot threads, mysteries, a ton of characters, but has a hard time bringing them together on the road to a conclusion.

      And yeah, Dany. I wasn’t that happy with either Dany or Jon’s endings. Dany put her all in to save Jon and defend the realm. Jon spent his entire arc defending the realm and… yep XD; But yes, I think it’s the story that’s going to happen. I think the far North is pretty much the best place for Jon and I think exile will be his book ending too. And Dany… sigh… Yeah. But that’s just my personal feeling 🙂 I should have been better braced for pain.

      But it may go down a bit differently in the books — still kind of the same approximately but with some differences? Dark, harsh, but the books have the gift of no time limits that TV doesn’t — and we’ll have access to characters’ thoughts.

      I’ve been watching that speculation video I linked above by Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson and they have some interesting predictions 🙂

      You’re not far from the next Arya chapter!

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    220. kevin1989,

      Season 8 was more plot driven, but they never once forgot about the characters. They balanced plot and characters masterfully and gave great arcs to Jon, Danerys, Tyrion, Arya, Beric, the Hound, Melisandre, Jaime, Brienne, Theon, and Varys.

      As for this bubble, you may have ignored season 8’s flaws, but a lot of us haven’t. Of course season 8 had flaws, but they were no more egregious than the flaws in the seasons that came before it, or more egregious than the flaws in all other television shows, including Breaking Bad and the Americans.

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    221. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      That’s true!

      I was warned and I remember rolling my eyes and being all, “Pfft. Losers,” AND NOW NINE YEARS LATER, HERE WE ARE. 💔💔💔

      😉

      And yes! I didn’t expect for things to end happily, not for Jaime-Brienne, Jon-Dany, or any couple really (well, maybe Sam and Gilly have a chance…) but I didn’t expect for it to go down so… bitterly…

      But I was warned…

      Re: loads and loads of POV characters. I know!! I think GRRM loves setting stuff up, like all these plot threads, mysteries, a ton of characters, but has a hard time bringing them together on the road to a conclusion.

      And yeah, Dany. I wasn’t that happy with either Dany or Jon’s endings. Dany put her all in to save Jon and defend the realm. Jon spent his entire arc defending the realm and… yep XD; But yes, I think it’s the story that’s going to happen. I think the far North is pretty much the best place for Jon and I think exile will be his book ending too. And Dany… sigh… Yeah. But that’s just my personal feeling 🙂 I should have been better braced for pain.

      But it may go down a bit differently in the books — still kind of the same approximately but with some differences? Dark, harsh, but the books have the gift of no time limits that TV doesn’t — and we’ll have access to characters’ thoughts.

      I’ve been watching that speculation video I linked above by Elio Garcia and Linda Antonsson and they have some interesting predictions 🙂

      You’re not far from the next Arya chapter!

      Yes I agree that D&D and possibly GRRM went for the bitter ending. It worked out best for Sansa! Arya’s ending was ok but I would rather see her be able to have Shore leave and visit her family from time to time. She’s still a wolf. Jon’s ending’ problem is that he has to live with killing Dany. Yes he may be happy with ghost and being king beyond the wall but he may never get over having to kill Dany.

      I can’t let season 6 go with The Waif fight happening off screen. I could have used some fan service. For those who say D&D made decisions based on fan service I think it’s the direct opposite. With a whole season of the Waif beating up on Arya we don’t get to see what happens. Use some
      Night vision. I know people have told me to get over it and some thought it was perfect. Same goes for certain things In season 8 that would have been more satisfying for fans. I guess so much was a bleak outlook on the world and it was hard to watch characters we grew to love like Dany have such a dramatic turn on screen.

      I’ll check out your video links once I’m done with my book journey. My goal is to finish by thanksgiving if not sooner. Maybe I will feast on Sandor’s chicken instead of turkey this year.

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    222. Tron79,

      The same here, just remember the main characters and all the side characters, just remember a few you like. And everyone can choose which of those side-characters they like and which not. And in winds we will probably see many of those side characters bite the dust and coming together so I have no problem with all the side characters. If you like Dany storyline, you’re invested in those side characters, if you like Jon the side characters there, Cersei the ones there etc.

      And I already find Dany in Dance darker than Dany in season 7. You?

      the countdown begins once again, only 100 pages to go.

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    223. Tron79,

      Didn’t anyone tell you that there is a mandatory quiz at the end? You need to get studying some names! lol

      Is your son getting married this week? I hope it goes well and being British, I have to wish you luck with the weather. It’s a great concern to me lol.

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    224. Tron79,

      I can’t let season 6 go with The Waif fight happening off screen. I could have used some fan service. For those who say D&D made decisions based on fan service I think it’s the direct opposite. With a whole season of the Waif beating up on Arya we don’t get to see what happens.

      Me either! And when they cut away from Bran about to reveal R+L=J to Sansa and Arya, I sceamed. I had been waiting for that for so long (three. years.).

      I know people have told me to get over it and some thought it was perfect. Same goes for certain things In season 8 that would have been more satisfying for fans. I guess so much was a bleak outlook on the world and it was hard to watch characters we grew to love like Dany have such a dramatic turn on screen.

      I’ve encountered the same (and feel the same)! My more unrestrained rants have happened offline over this summer and in turn, I’ve been on the receiving end of Star Wars rants. True friendship! 🙂 And all over deep-fried festival foods! (Some rants have happened on a roller coaster and the ferris wheel…)

      My goal is to finish by thanksgiving if not sooner. Maybe I will feast on Sandor’s chicken instead of turkey this year.

      I’m eager to hear your thoughts when you’re all done! US or UK Thanksgiving? That’s end of November, right?

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    225. Jenny:
      Tron79,

      Didn’t anyone tell you that there is a mandatory quiz at the end?You need to get studying some names! lol

      Is your son getting married this week?I hope it goes well and being British, I have to wish you luck with the weather.It’s a great concern to me lol.

      You mean there won’t be a quiz? Well I’m the person that paused the show credits and really studied them so I could learn all the actors’ names! It took me a long time to tell the difference between Iain Glen and Aiden Gillan.
      Yes the wedding is coming up quickly! I finished the slide show project. My son stops over for a few minutes and ends up talking for two hours after he said goodbye. (I think he’s a bit excited!). The weather is ok here at the moment. I’m in the Midwest in the USA. Fall finally hit here (or should I say autumn in the UK? I don’t think you call it fall? Kind of like winter fell. Oy. GOT on the brain. I doubt I’ll get much more reading in after today until after the wedding.

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    226. Tron79,

      That’s so sweet that he’s excited! Probably a bit nervous as well. Indeed, it is autumn over here, my favourite time of year, a sunny day in October/November is the best. We haven’t had too much rain so it’s nice at the moment. Great for photo’s too, with the leaves, its romantic but now my mind is wandering lol.

      Adrianacandle,

      We don’t have Thanksgiving, but we do have Bonfire Night on November 5th. For some reason we celebrate Guy Fawkes trying to blow up the Houses of Parliament in 1605 with fires and firework displays. I guess we celebrate his failure. GOT connection, Kit is related to the person behind that plot, and played him in a TV series a couple of years ago, Robert Catesby I think, it was all to do with Catholicism. Back then you were a heretic depending on who was on the throne, James was Protestant, it must have been so stressful.

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    227. Jenny: We don’t have Thanksgiving, but we do have Bonfire Night on November 5th. For some reason we celebrate Guy Fawkes trying to blow up the Houses of Parliament in 1605 with fires and firework displays. I guess we celebrate his failure. GOT connection, Kit is related to the person behind that plot, and played him in a TV series a couple of years ago, Robert Catesby I think, it was all to do with Catholicism.

      Right! Yes! I should know that! I have UK relatives but I never go to family dinners because this family has a penchant for hugging (when a “handshake is as good as a hug” — Frasier) but Nana won’t go for a politely earnest and heartfelt family handshake.

      Thanks for the reminder! 🙂 🙂 🙂

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    228. Adrianacandle,

      Tbf, they were English, so it wouldn’t be that weird if we did, and I think they were doing some version of our harvest festival, which is a religious thing, but I’m not religious so I haven’t taken part in that since I was a kid.

      ‘Nana won’t go for a politely earnest and heartfelt family handshake’.

      I should think not! A handshake won’t do, oh no. Hugs all around or an awkward wave/nod is the way I do it.

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    229. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      Me either! And when they cut away from Bran about to reveal R+L=J to Sansa and Arya, I sceamed. I had been waiting for that for so long (three. years.).

      I’ve encountered the same (and feel the same)! My more unrestrained rants have happened offline over this summer and in turn, I’ve been on the receiving end of Star Wars rants. True friendship! 🙂 And all over deep-fried festival foods! (Some rants have happened on a roller coaster and the ferris wheel…)

      I’m eager to hear your thoughts when you’re all done! US or UK Thanksgiving? That’s end of November, right?

      Yep end of November. It’s US thanksgiving.
      I’ve been taking notes along with way with my reaction to book/show differences. Luckily you, keith,Jenny and others are there if I can’t remember a character when it comes time discuss things!

        Quote  Reply

    230. kevin1989: If somebody is insulting I can understand. But you state that some of the people here would have been kicked out of your group, you even stated I remember you of somebody you kicked out. While nobody is here insulting D&D, not me and no others. We don’t talk about who D&D personally are, because nobody here has anything against the guys. They are amazing guys I think, fun to be with, they are great writers. Nobody is denying that here on watchers on the wall. (yes maybe some place else I read such comments but not here, and I just ignore them).
      We are just talking here civil about the things we found missing, or that we feel D&D could handle better, and even that wording you should see that we feel that D&D could give us the best of the best.
      And even giving critic should not be discourage, everyone has the right to their opinion. As long as it’s done civil and it this case, criticizing the show, instead of attacking D&D personally, that should not be tolerated. But you can’t kick people out of a community when they don’t agree with the opinion you’re having about a show. A “you can’t talk negative about the show”-rule should not be a rule that should be implemented, it goes against free speech and the right that everyone has their opinion to express about the show.

      You maybe not agreeing with it, but the hard truth is, you just have to live with it that some don’t like it.

      And if you want some positivity in a comment section, you could always try what Ten Bears always does, just talk about something positive. Something to defuse the tension

      and about that lost-forum I had, even the ones that didn’t like the ending always respected the ones that liked the ending, and were always civil with what they didn’t like. And as a community we were still making fun on the forum. (And personally I found that civil talking also being here on this site)

      You know what kind of posts that guy kept making? Usually “Are you for a LOST discussion? (And then he stated something very deconstructive about overall show, usually regarding its ending).” Over and over again. He even stated once “I used to defend LOST for most of the time, but recently I decided to side with people who are frustrated because I think they’re right after all” – This line was pretty much a nail in his coffin regarding him being (not) accepted in our community, at least regarding us admins. But first of all, we don’t have any “No negativity allowed” rule, unless posts are specifically designed as appreciation posts. We do encourage constructive discussions, but as long as there’s appreciation over criticism. But encouraging people to refrain from positivity like this guy did… that’s a no-go in our community. And still, we didn’t kick him out. He left on his own after he eventually realized how unwelcome he is in our group and how he doesn’t fit in.

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    231. Tron79,

      ”I’ll check out your video links once I’m done with my book journey. My goal is to finish by thanksgiving if not sooner. Maybe I will feast on Sandor’s chicken instead of turkey this year.”

      I think we should all commit to feasting on chicken instead of turkey this Thanksgiving. Who’s in?

      🐓🐓🐓🐓🐓
      #EveryF*ckingChickenInThisRoom

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    232. Gfx,

      My only criticism is that I may have liked an episode more post “The Long Night” to provide some more on-screen interaction between some characters. Maybe episode 4 being about the aftermath to the Long Night, ending with characters moving south (consequently, there could be more interactions between the Starks, especially Jon revealing his origin, more insight of Arya wanting to leave Winterfell and maybe more fluent transition of Jaime leaving for KL). Then episode 5 being the set-up for the Bells, opening with Rhaegal’s death and ending with Missandei being captured and it could have ended with Varys’s death for example as a prelude to Daenerys eventually snapping. Then episode 6 could have been the Bells and episode 7 the finale the way it happened.

      But overall, I already see S7/S8 as one 13-episodes season and the pace doesn’t bother me at all that way. And regarding my ranklist of 73 GoT episodes (1 being the highest, 73 the lowest), S8 episodes occupy ranks 38, 34, 1, 30, 5 and 13 in my case and S7/S8 combined is my 3rd favorite GoT season, right after S6 and S4.

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    233. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      Me either! And when they cut away from Bran about to reveal R+L=J to Sansa and Arya, I sceamed. I had been waiting for that for so long (three. years.).

      https://tenor.com/view/sirius-sirius-black-harry-potter-twelveyears-12years-gif-4994520

      Tron79,

      Congratulations and have fun with your son’s wedding.

      Lord Parramandas,

      Than it’s all right. But that’s not what we’re doing here. It’s very civil here and with lot of respect. And even then many people who had problems with the last season post their favorite moments of season 8 here. I agree with them that some things were missing, but still I enjoy every season of GoT. And I can’t wait to start the show again. (almost finished with lost, 5×14 today and I watch 1 a 2 episodes a day depends on the day, after that I think I make sure my other shows are up to date, and then GoT per 2 seasons).

      But still we will get lots of discussion about the books here, and of course the prequels, it’s all part of the experience we will have because she show has stopped. And I’m happy because of that. For instance me and Adrianacandle had lots of good talk here about the books that’s pretty amazing to get into, and to think about. And it gives this site more of a living vibe.

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    234. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      ”I’ll check out your video links once I’m done with my book journey. My goal is to finish by thanksgiving if not sooner. Maybe I will feast on Sandor’s chicken instead of turkey this year.”

      I think we should all commit to feasting on chicken instead of turkey this Thanksgiving. Who’s in?

      #EveryF*ckingChickenInThisRoom

      Well, I am in!………. although Canadian Thanksgiving is already past. And when USA Thanksgiving comes I will be on the other side of the world with chopsticks in hand.

      But I am always ready to eat chicken!

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    235. Lord Parramandas,

      That would have been nice to see an extra episode afterwards. I also thought the pacing was fine. Someone on here back when season 7 was going on had a great comment about how stories naturally pick up pace near the end of a book. And I do see that a lot in other stories as well. I think the The Last Watch documentary also really helped show the logistics and the reality of what they had to work with. I loved watching it, you can tell those people were really passionate about their work on the show.

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    236. Jenny: ‘Nana won’t go for a politely earnest and heartfelt family handshake’.

      I should think not! A handshake won’t do, oh no. Hugs all around or an awkward wave/nod is the way I do it.

      I think I’ll try the awkward wave/nod — well out of tackling distance! 🙂

      Tron79: Yep end of November. It’s US thanksgiving.
      I’ve been taking notes along with way with my reaction to book/show differences. Luckily you, keith,Jenny and others are there if I can’t remember a character when it comes time discuss things!

      It’s been really fun following your book reading journey! And I’d like to ditto what Kevin said — congratulations on your son’s wedding!

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    237. kevin1989,

      LOL! Accurate XD

      Ten Bears: I think we should all commit to feasting on chicken instead of turkey this Thanksgiving. Who’s in?

      Thirded! But yes (as Mango mentioned), Canadian Thanksgiving is past but I’ll have chicken thoughts 🙂

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    238. Adrianacandle:
      kevin1989,

      LOL! Accurate XD

      Thirded! But yes (as Mango mentioned), Canadian Thanksgiving is past but I’ll have chicken thoughts 🙂

      2nd Thanksgiving for us Canucks! 🤪 Truly though, I love chicken but rarely eat it – I’ve rehabbed thousands of birds, and now when I see wings I think of fixing them, not what sauce I want with them. 😆 But it’s so GOOD. 😳

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    239. Pigeon: 2nd Thanksgiving for us Canucks! 🤪 Truly though, I love chicken but rarely eat it – I’ve rehabbed thousands of birds, and now when I see wings I think of fixing them, not what sauce I want with them. 😆 But it’s so GOOD. 😳

      Oooooh, that would be awkward 😵I love Swiss Chalet but I can definitely understand where you’re coming from D:

      (Though not the same as your experiences at all working one-on-one with birds, seeing Chicken Run put me off for a while 😅😅😅)

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    240. Adrianacandle: I think I’ll try the awkward wave/nod — well out of tackling distance!

      It’s been really fun following your book reading journey! And I’d like to ditto what Kevin said — congratulations on your son’s wedding!

      Thanks! I have some time before a staff meeting, so I hope to get closer to “Cat of the Canals” this morning (Arya’s next chapter). And the chapter right after is another Sam chapter (and he might still be in Braavos), so she may show up again! The printout of the boiled leather journey is in two columns (the chapter headings), and I’m in the 2nd column now, so that also feels like an accomplishment. I’m also hoping I get to more Lady Stoneheart soon. She’s been mentioned several times by other characters, but no real action from her yet. And book Cersei just intersected with the show Cersei giving the Faith Militant power when she thought she was being clever.

      By the way, my son who is getting married is the one who bought me my ASOIAF book set for Father’s Day!! so he’s a pretty awesome son!

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    241. Tron79,

      That sounds indeed as an amazing son.

      And how far are you in Feast self? I can’t remember if Feast ended way before Dance ended or that it was more the same. (Because some Feast characters are in Dance)

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    242. Tron79: By the way, my son who is getting married is the one who bought me my ASOIAF book set for Father’s Day!! so he’s a pretty awesome son!

      That is a pretty awesome son! You sound like an awesome dad for reading ASOIAF! I tried to get my dad to but he says, “No, too dark. Read something happy, Adriana. Dr. Who’s on now. Go away.”

      (He also has switched out the name ‘dad’ for ‘male parental unit’ — shortened to “MPU.”)

      And you’re making good progress! (I really enjoy Cersei…)

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    243. kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      That sounds indeed as an amazing son.

      And how far are you in Feast self? I can’t remember if Feast ended way before Dance ended or that it was more the same. (Because some Feast characters are in Dance)

      Yeah AFFC does end before ADWD in the reading order. After you finish AFFC it’s 28 chapters of ADWD until the end…
      I see looking at the chart that once I get to Arya’s Blind Girl chapter it’s all ADWD from that point on. I’m on about page 650 in Feast right now…..

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    244. Adrianacandle: That is a pretty awesome son! You sound like an awesome dad for reading ASOIAF! I tried to get my dad to but he says, “No, too dark. Read something happy, Adriana. Dr. Who’s on now. Go away.”

      (He also has switched out the name ‘dad’ for ‘male parental unit’ — shortened to “MPU.”)

      And you’re making good progress! (I really enjoy Cersei…)

      Funny. Of course when I think Dr. Who , the first name that comes to mind is Me (no not me, not horse face, not weasel, not Cat, not Salty, not Arry, not Lumpyface, not Nan, not No One, just Maisie Williams… also known as Me or Ashildr in Dr. Who….. Ok the book Arya is rubbing off on me! Ten Bears if you follow your Boiled Chicken journey one day you will get what I’m taking about….

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    245. Tron79,

      It seems boiled leathers is out of the air. Damn I wanted to look up the reading order. Does others also have problems opening boiled leathers?

      But didn’t Sam’s last chapter not move till the end of boiled leathers? Or do you read that chapter right after the chapter before it?

      EDIT: Seems I’m confused with Feast for Dragons

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    246. kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      It seems boiled leathers is out of the air. Damn I wanted to look up the reading order. Does others also have problems opening boiled leathers?

      But didn’t Sam’s last chapter not move till the end of boiled leathers? Or do you read that chapter right after the chapter before it?

      EDIT: Seems I’m confused with Feast for Dragons

      I’ve used this link to the image…
      https://www.pinterest.com/pin/34762228345633066/?lp=true

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    247. Tron79,

      I think with my reread now I will go another route. Once I arrive at Feast, I will read it in parts per character. Until I get bored with them or a part of their story is done. I leave Arya for last because if I’m bored with everyone I have Arya still left.
      I already read it first feast then Dance.
      Then I read boiled leathers a 2 or 3 times.
      And now I want to do another kind of read.

      As you stated the story is sometimes pretty difficult with the amount of characters in it. And I hope I can understand certain plots better when reading it that way.

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    248. kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      I think with my reread now I will go another route. Once I arrive at Feast, I will read it in parts per character. Until I get bored with them or a part of their story is done. I leave Arya for last because if I’m bored with everyone I have Arya still left.
      I already read it first feast then Dance.
      Then I read boiled leathers a 2 or 3 times.
      And now I want to do another kind of read.

      As you stated the story is sometimes pretty difficult with the amount of characters in it. And I hope I can understand certain plots better when reading it that way.

      ok interesting. It is nice being able to keep track of all of the main POV’s with Boiled Leather without having to wait 1000 pages to find out what’s going on with Dany and Jon (even though Jon is seen at least one chapter from Sam’s point of view in AFFC).
      The Iron Born characters are really very dramatic and colorful. I read more of their chapters today. I’m not sure if there will be an ultimate point to them though, but I do enjoy reading them. Even though there are lots of minor Iron Born described, I’ve given myself permission to forget most of them (now that Jenny let me know I wouldn’t be quizzed) and I can just follow the main Iron Born POV’s like Victarion. Lots of folks and their brothers are wanting to get to Meereen to wed Dany in the books. In the show it was mainly condensed down to Euron. So I’m not sure if ultimately there will be more to it in the books for the Iron Born to do or perhaps GRRM just enjoys describing very colorful, crude, and dangerous pirates. He’s very good at it.

      I do feel torn now jumping back and forth. I know what’s happening with Dany, and I’m not really in a hurry to jump back over there! I find myself just wanting to stick with AFFC until the end, but I’m still following the boiled leather path. I will be jumping back to ADWD a couple more times I think before finishing AFFC.

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    249. Tron79,

      I should add that in AFFC I’m hoping for… (which excites me)

      Nymeria’s super pack. The wolf pack has been mentioned several times so I’m not sure if they will actually show up! but they sound awesome. I wish the show would have splurged to have them show up in The Long Night!

      Lady Stoneheart. She’s been mentioned several times, but no real action from her yet up close…

      Breinne’s arc and where it goes… She has a great journey in this book so far and she’s been traveling with Pod for awhile now…but Pod is not the same Pod as the show…

      Arya of course… She’s coming up soon with her last chapter in AFFC

      And more… There’s just a ton of good stories going on in AFFC at the moment (Cersei and Jaime too)

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    250. Tron79,

      Well Boiled Leather is more structure, it’s nice to read Cersei and Tyrion for instance close together. But if you just want to finish Feast first now, just finish Feast first.
      As for Dany, personally I found her story not that interesting the first time, but now somehow I found it more interesting. It’s all about Dany herself, her ideology against peace. How far will she let go of what she fights for to keep the peace. Personally I could have done less with her story until her point of marrying (already there?), for me Dany only became interesting after that moment.

      As fpr the iron born. Just wait till you finish the books (and that means also the chapters of winds especially those)

      Tron79,

      Agree here.

      And true Pod is younger of course in the books. And I found with Feast the first chapters not that great. But around 150 pages in it was amazing for me until the end. But for Dance it’s different. The first 100 pages are great. Then it has many lows with some very amazing chapters like Reek. And only around halfway through the book it begin to get interesting again. I think you’re not there yet?

      Did you get the last Bran chapter already?

      Tommorrow I will finally read clash further. I only read the POV. Not much time this week.

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    251. I’m not Tron of course, but while reading I visualized the charakters as they are in show. I read the books after season 6 and am glad I didn’t before GoT aired.
      While reading I thought, all of them fit veryvery well.

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    252. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Just curious: When you’re reading, do you visualize the characters as they’re portrayed by the actresses and actors on the show?

      Wow. that’s such an interesting question, because I was going to say I see the characters in the show, but thinking about it now I honestly don’t. Well, what happens is that I remember the scene for the show and I think of the actors from the show in those scenes. But then I get back to the book and there are many different scenes and plot lines. I honestly have a different picture of Arya (book Arya). I’m not always thinking of Maisie, and that’s nuts actually for me. Maisie has the same attitude, but her physical appearance is quite different. I see the book Arya as even skinnier and much more disheveled. I’m not sure if that’s the right word. She’s also alot younger for alot of the story. She had a scene in braavos as the oysters, clams and cockells girl. In the show Maisie looked really nice in her new dress and cute hairstyle with the two buns. In the books, Arya looks totally different and definitely not nearly as well put together (fashion wise). I have a different picture in my head of her.. That’s so weird! And I didn’t realize it until you asked. She showed up in braavos in these oversized boots, and she just looks skinny and tough in my head… She has the little oyster knife hidden in her belt somewhere that she pulls out sometimes… It’s so weird not to see Maisie! But I guess part of it is Maisie definitely looks better and more put together than my mental picture of book Arya. Also Tyrion looks much worse in the books.. Brienne also looks worse in the books… Maybe I’m spotting a GRRM trend here! But I have a new picture of book Cersei forming…It’s not exactly Lena… Jaime is not exactly NCW…Samwell is still John Bradley!! That’s kind of interesting. Gilly is definitely not the same Gilly… Wow….thanks for bringing this up… In the early books it was much closer to the show characters. As the story has drifted away from the show, I think that’s when my mental pictures have changed… I also don’t have a show reference to go back to… But Arya does start out much more disheveled than Maisie and she’s in the mud alot!! And I do still think of the show to compare in my brain what just happened…

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    253. That’s interesting, Tron!
      I noticed while reading, that I wasn’t really pleased, how much “shaggier” the charakters should look like in the books. The difference was clear, but I very preferred the show-charakters. And as You said, “In the early books it was much closer to the show characters” – I stayed there. And I have to confess: I lost interest, the more book- and show-story parted.

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    254. cos alpha:
      That’s interesting, Tron!
      I noticed while reading, that I wasn’t really pleased, how much “shaggier” the charakters should look like in the books. The difference was clear, but I very preferred the show-charakters. And as You said, “In the early books it was much closer to the show characters” – I stayed there. And I have to confess: I lost interest, the more book- and show-story parted.

      I agree it was great casting. I think TV is a very different medium, and people may have had a tough time having to see Tyrion without a nose and looking hideous for so many episodes with such a big role. I can see why they made certain decisions for TV. I think the show actors all brought something of themselves to the role that also made it their own (and great). I think Rory’s hound is one example of taking an interesting book character to another level. I think for me after the show ended, I craved a way to keep things going. I really wasn’t ready for it to end. Also, even though I have grown to really appreciate seasons 7 and 8, I was hoping for more detail and more development instead of mainly plot points in those last two seasons. So for me, I was craving to learn about differences between the book and the show and I enjoy discovering the many new things. However, it was getting overwhelming with SO many new characters as I stated before, but I think I’m over that now that I pushed forward and Arya is closer to her next chapter!

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    255. Ten Bears,

      For me it depends, some like Arya I see like in the show. Dany is as close as Emilia, but a bit different because she is younger.

      And some complete different like Euron, or Doran (Doran is fat in the books so difficult to get the show version)

      Nothing against the actors. And I wish I could have potrait doran like the show. Amazing actor but his storyline was cut so that was not Doran of the books. Same with Euron. It’s not Pilou’s fault he’s different then the book version.

      Oh and Tyene I portrait different. For me that’s a bit like the dangerous, manipulative nerdy type, where everyone is afraid of (except one character who she is manipulating Arianne).

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    256. Tron79,

      Oh right, she was in Doctor Who, wasn’t she?

      I don’t watch the show, to my dad’s disappointment — that flying through space oOOOOoOOOOoOOOOoo opening freaked me out too much when I was little and right into my nightmares featuring floating forever through space and time, always in the dark, lost, alone, unfamiliar, cold, and damned.

      That took a turn!! XD

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    257. Adrianacandle,

      For Doctor Who. Season 1 is bad. Season 2 till 4 (especially 4) is pretty damn good. 5 till 7 was a bit good. 8 till 10 was ok-ish. And 11 is just utterly bad. Personally I wouldn’t recommend watching the show. And else only the first 4.

        Quote  Reply

    258. Tron79,

      I think Martin has been influenced by Dickens a lot… If I remember correctly he has already pointed out that people in the middle ages looked different; for one, they were dirtier; he also said that they had broken teeth or no teeth and their wounds were ugly, they were scarred and maimed. I think he’s stretched that as much as he could, and perhaps he’s wrong there. I know for sure he’s wrong when it comes to the upper social strata, and also, our perception of the middle ages depends on the side of Europe you’re thinking of. His is Europe west. Europe east had a good relation with water and there’s an entire civilization of bathing and keeping clean and neat. But I think even in west Europe people would have been clean and presentable at least for going to church.
      Lol, wait till you get to the bite scene…
      And Jon’s murder in the books is absolutely gruesome.

      Anyway, I wish to your son all the best in his married life. I hope you have a great time at the wedding and party.

        Quote  Reply

    259. kevin1989:
      Adrianacandle,

      For Doctor Who. Season 1 is bad. Season 2 till 4 (especially 4) is pretty damn good. 5 till 7 was a bit good. 8 till 10 was ok-ish. And 11 is just utterly bad. Personally I wouldn’t recommend watching the show. And else only the first 4.

      I think Dad ranked seasons and (doctors — he likes that one with the scarf, Tom Baker?) in the car but whenever he speaks to me, it’s in one ear, out the next. This is why he was opposed to me getting my ears pierced, “You don’t need more holes in your head.”

      But wow, is that a long running series!! O___O

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    260. Efi: I know for sure he’s wrong when it comes to the upper social strata, and also, our perception of the middle ages depends on the side of Europe you’re thinking of.

      Does Monty Python count as a viable perception of the middle ages? I hear both ducks and wood were historically accurate to the period 😉

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    261. It’s funny, even when watching the show, I think to myself, ‘these people must smell terrible’. They seem to just wash in a basin and go on their merry way, and the characters travelling? Oh that must be grim.

      With Dr Who, i’d just recommend the Matt Smith version, he was great along with Amy Pond. Never really bothered after that.

        Quote  Reply

    262. Adrianacandle,

      “holes in your head”

      Lol, I like that specification!
      I got a tattoo some years ago to cover up a scar and he was all “yeah, right!” while mom was all “go for it!”
      What’s up with dads, anyway? They’re too bored to understand their daughters’ beauty quests or what?

        Quote  Reply

    263. Efi: I got a tattoo some years ago to cover up a scar and he was all “yeah, right!” while mom was all “go for it!”
      What’s up with dads, anyway? They’re too bored to understand their daughters’ beauty quests or what?

      I have no idea! XD

      Doubtless, my dad bemoans what I want and what I spend my money on (eyelash perms, Sephora, K-beauty, yearning for that…. $400 Dyson hairdryer…) but he also cannot stand the idea of body piercings! XD When I first got my ears done at 12, he nearly fainted!

      He’s a doctor… but not the medical kind 🙂

      Way to go on getting that tattoo btw!

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    264. I was reading this yesterday:
      “A few moments later the adults began to emerge from the earth. A stench came with them, the smell of unwashed bodies and soiled clothing, of nightsoil and urine. Jon saw one of his men wrinkle his nose and say something to the man beside him. Some jape about the smell of freedom, he guessed. Too many of his brothers were making japes about the stench of the svages in Mole’s Town.
      Pig ignorance, Jon thought. The frefolk were no different than the men of the Night’s Watch; some were clean, some dirty, but most were clean at times and dirty at other times. This stink was just the smell of a thousand people jammed into cellars and tunnels that had been dug to shelter no more than a hundred.”

      So Jon here calls it “smell of freedom” rather because he recognizes that these were people expatriated, away from their homes and their comforts (where they were “clean at times and dirty at other times”), while, on the other hand, “pig ignorance” clearly refers to his brothers of the Night’s Watch. He doesn’t think much of them, he’s scornful and even spiteful as regards them.
      Interesting; Jonny boy is mean.

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    265. Efi: So Jon here calls it “smell of freedom” rather because he recognizes that these were people expatriated, away from their homes and their comforts (where they were “clean at times and dirty at other times”), while, on the other hand, “pig ignorance” clearly refers to his brothers of the Night’s Watch. He doesn’t think much of them, he’s scornful and even spiteful as regards them.
      Interesting; Jonny boy is mean.

      I think that’s largely because these Watchmen are being jerks to the free folk refugees and making fun of them, which Jon doesn’t appreciate. You’re right, he doesn’t think much of these guys because he thinks they’re being jerks. Which is how he also starts to lose his regard for Marsh because Marsh is staunchly against allying with and rescuing the wildlings — viewing them strictly as enemies:

      Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. “Cotter Pyke’s galleys sail past Hardhome from time to time. He tells me there is no shelter there but the caves. The screaming caves, his men call them. Mother Mole and those who followed her will perish there, of cold and starvation. Hundreds of them. Thousands.”

      “Thousands of enemies. Thousands of wildlings.”

      Thousands of people, Jon thought. Men, women, children. Anger rose inside him, but when he spoke his voice was quiet and cold. “Are you so blind, or is it that you do not wish to see? What do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead?”

      Above the door the raven muttered, “Dead, dead, dead.”

      “Let me tell you what will happen,” Jon said. “The dead will rise again, in their hundreds and their thousands. They will rise as wights, with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they will come for us.” He pushed himself to his feet, the fingers of his sword hand opening and closing. “You have my leave to go.”

      Septon Cellador rose grey-faced and sweating, Othell Yarwyck stiffly, Bowen Marsh tight-lipped and pale. “Thank you for your time, Lord Snow.” They left without another word.

      “Marsh flushed a deeper shade of red. “The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night’s Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath.”

      “I know what I swore.” Jon said the words. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?”

      “They were. As the lord commander knows.”

      “Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord— what are these wildlings, if not men?”

      Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck.

      At the same time, Jon doesn’t really realize these people lack the experiences he (and a select few others) have with them. To Marsh and these Watchmen, the wildlings are the enemies while to Jon and a small faction of brothers, they’re people and part of the same realms as men as they are.

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    266. Efi,

      You know, Jon does have some really good snarky lines (and thoughts) 😉

      “M’lord,” Janos Slynt reminded [Jon]. “You’ll address me-”

      “I’ll go, my lord. But you are making a mistake, my lord. You are sending the wrong man, my lord. Just the sight of me is going to anger Mance. My lord would have a better chance of reaching terms if he sent -”

      I wonder if this is where the “m’lord” vs. “my lord” season 2 conversation between Tywin and Arya came from?

      Also, this:

      Alys Karstark leaned close to Jon. “Snow during a wedding means a cold marriage. My lady mother always said so.”

      He glanced at Queen Selyse. There must have been a blizzard the day she and Stannis wed.

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    267. Adrianacandle,

      Yeah, Lena is perfect for show Cersei and brings a lot of humanity to the character, but book Cersei is hard, and cold most of the time. I read the books after watching S1, and imagined most of the show cast, but from the description I went straight to Charlize and never pictured Lena.

        Quote  Reply

    268. Jenny:
      Adrianacandle,

      Yeah, Lena is perfect for show Cersei and brings a lot of humanity to the character, but book Cersei is hard, and cold most of the time.I read the books after watching S1, and imagined most of the show cast, but from the description I went straight to Charlize andnever pictured Lena.

      If I hadn’t have watched the pilot before reading the books, I would have too. Theron would easily fit Cersei’s physical description, even including the green eyes. And she’s able to smirk quite well!

        Quote  Reply

    269. Adrianacandle,

      Oh I think that’s the old series, I never watched that. I watch the revival only. It’s fun to watch with some good episodes but overall not my cup of tea. And if 12 will be as bad as 11 I stop watching.

      Jenny,

      Shame, you forget Donna. How could you forget Donna.

        Quote  Reply

    270. Adrianacandle,

      If you think about it, in book 1, you love the north and the watch. And in book 5 (or in the show season 8) you start too dislike them. The north and the watch are pretty Xenophobic. Just as horrible als the Lannisters some times. Maybe even worse if you take 7×01 in account. (or 2×10).

        Quote  Reply

    271. kevin1989,

      I think that actually applies to most cultural groups in this series – distrustful, wary, and sometimes hostile toward outsiders. It’s really only a few individuals — who have experiences with both (or more) groups — that become the ‘bridge’ (so to speak). It’s Jeor Mormont who wakes Jon up to what the real threat actually is: it’s not his brother’s war, it’s the war against the dead, Qhorin Halfhand who teaches him what it means to defend the realm, and through his experiences with the wildlings, Jon realizes they and the Westerosi aren’t that different and they share a common enemy.

      I’m not sure if the Night’s Watch was ever wholly likable but in book 1, you have Donal Noye, Jeor Mormont, Benjen Stark, Maester Aemon to balance out the nastier personalities in charge. In book 5, these are the individuals Jon misses (along with Sam, Qhorin Halfhand, and Ygritte), having surrounded himself with dissenters who object to his every move (sometimes with good reason but sometimes, it’s based on their hate for wildlings).

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    272. kevin1989:
      Adrianacandle,

      For Doctor Who. Season 1 is bad. Season 2 till 4 (especially 4) is pretty damn good. 5 till 7 was a bit good. 8 till 10 was ok-ish. And 11 is just utterly bad. Personally I wouldn’t recommend watching the show. And else only the first 4.

      What about the four-episode guest-starring role on Dr. Who by Maisie Williams? I’m not sure what season it was. Season 9, maybe? (Peter Capaldi played the Doctor.) I tried watching other Dr. Who episodes; some were really good, e.g., an old one with a young Carey Mulligan, but after a while it seemed repetitive. I lnow there are quite a few GoT actors who were in Dr. Who; I just never got around to watching them before zapping them from my DVR.

      P.S. The four Maisie Williams episodes were: (1) “The Girl Who Died”; (2) “The Woman Who Lived”; (3) “Face the Raven”; and (4) “Hell Bent.”
      I liked the first and fourth the most.

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    273. I’m heartbroken at the ending, especially for her poor character.

      No wait, I did have a lot more to say.
      People take the most issue with Dany’s crucifixion of all the masters without trying to determine which ones might have been (for whatever reason) not in favor of using dead kids as mile markers for her. Okay. Well last year some argued that Arya’s slaying of the entire male half of House Frey was problematic because SHE did not give each a trial to attempt to judge which were more or less guilty and complicit in the Red Wedding. I’d defended the act, which indeed the show portrayed as a heroic one that held no further consequences of note.
      And the face-swapping is a skill, a weapon, a tool that can be used for good or ill. If it was ever intended to represent Arya “losing her humanity” and then regaining it, that did not come across. She never said or implied that she was forever through with using it (although, she should have probably used it in the attempted assassination of Cersei. Speaking of which, why did she keep that mission secret? It likely would have been successful had Dany not been razing the city. And no, she had NEVER previously done anything remotely similar to that 1000% illogical, insane stupidity into which they painfully forced her.)

      Yet, we’re supposed to believe that Dany was building up all along to be just a totally random nonsensical killer. Arya gets portrayed throughout the final season as a big hero (even getting to stab the Night King to death in one shot ’cause she’s the little writers’ pet, whomp whomp whommmmmp)–despite it being the first season where she’s dislikable. Suddenly she starts praising and siding with Sansa for no reason, when she should have been fascinated with Dany and the dragons. Taking on a Cersei-esque attitude of “We’re the only ones who matter, I don’t need allies, we can use and discard her because she’s an outsider, she’s not one of us…” This is the same adventurous, open-minded, righteous girl who’s befriended people from all walks of life throughout the series? I adored Arya for seven seasons and hated her in the last. It had me turning on characters who’d been strong favorites of mine since S1, while wishing for more Cersei of all people; at least she was humorous, what with her elephant longing and tiptoeing past Cleganebowl…
      Saying you’re gonna burn down a city for blatantly obvious reasons isn’t the same as actually burning one down for less than no reason. Dany wasn’t an evil tyrant waiting to break free from the control of those around her. If she’d honestly wanted to act “madly,” she could have at any point. Words wouldn’t have stopped her. “Breaking the wheel” didn’t just mean reestablishing the Targaryen dynasty–the whole image was of a wheel crushing everybody on the ground, and she intended to put an end to the oppression of the lower classes. She was about as brutal as anybody else and I refuse to hold her to an unfairly less-Medieval standard because I now need to pretend that “tHeRe WeRe sIgNs AlL aLoNg.” I didn’t ship Jonerys at all in S7 and thought it was kind of forced and cliche; by the time I knew what they were going to do to Dany, I saw how much they did love one another and had to ship it. All little girls named Daenerys (or Khaleesi -_-) and their parents should remain proud af.

      The final season was in some ways shockingly, uncharacteristically nonsensical…and yet simultaneously predictable in “Oh NO, it did NOT actually wind up in that bs way that was getting suggested” kinds of ways. Dx All the YT videos on it are brilliant. The mind-blowing D&D interview on Twitter speaks for itself. I’m the average viewer and as true a fan as they come. I hated the season due to the way it was written, unearned arcs, and so much of what happened (or didn’t) that did not follow from the previous seven seasons. If George handles all of it the exact same way then I’ll take it up with him. It’s not about what you may have just “wanted” to see, but what would have made infinitely more sense logically, thematically, & in terms of what they were implicitly promising and leading toward from the start. “They didn’t rush the final season,” my foot. It was like a Cliff Notes version that never would’ve been accepted earlier.

      -I can totally understand people burning their GoT tees after the end, though I couldn’t bring myself to…at the same time, I cannot bring myself to re-watch the show. If/when I do, I’ll probably quit after S8E3. Just can’t suffer the second half. I thought the natural thing to do was to combine the primary AotD + secondary Cersei conflicts, not check off the first and then do…ugh, can’t even say it again.
      -A Jonerys marriage should’ve been discussed beyond Davos’ line. The two loved each other to the end (I’m sure he’ll never forgive himself for murdering her), even if Jon didn’t want it to be romantic anymore. He was going to happily hand the throne to her, and probably wind up somewhere close by, regardless. I utterly loathe Sansa and her rotten, foolish, selfish behavior. Briefly may she reign. Bran didn’t have much choice but to be “used as bait” because a) wheelchair and b) the NK was going to personally seek him out no matter what. Don’t start me on Big Brother Bran, the true villain.

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    274. Oh great another actor/actress who has to come out to defend S8. I do agree though that the deleted script elements would have made Dany’s final descent into madness much more smooth rather than the almost shock and awe which we got.

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