I hate to sound like a broken record, but season 8 of Game of Thrones might just blow your mind, guys. But don’t ask me, ask the entire cast, who Literally. Can. Not. Stop. The. Hype. Machine. The latest cast member to dish on the full speed ahead-ness of the final season is none other than the Mother of Dragons herself, Emilia Clarke (Daenerys Stormborn of House Targ – oh, you know by now, come on). While on the red carpet for the Oscars, awards presenter Emilia talked to the busiest man in show business, Ryan Seacrest where she waxed poetic about what’s to come…
Tell me if you’ve heard this before: Emilia says that season 8 will “shock” you. Crazy, right?
“It’s going to be huge, that much everyone needs to know…It took us a very long time to shoot this one for a very good reason. … I know there’s going to be some things in this last season that’s going to shock people.”
My reaction to this can be summed up by (coincidentally, also a 2019 Oscars presenter) none other than Mike Myers:
I know that they can’t tell us anything, and truth be told, I love being spoiler free, but I just wanna know WHAT’S SO EPIC AND WHY WILL IT BREAK OUR HEARTS?!?!
Always one for a laugh, Emilia mentioned that she did attempt to smuggle some props off set, but alas, the Iron Throne didn’t fit in her car:
“I’m not going to lie. I’m such a goody two shoes. Everyone was watching me all the time!” she said. “I tried to throw some things under the wig, hide them in my bag, nothing!”
Ever the one for good humor, I kind of hope that Emilia tries her hand at comedy soon. I think she really has a knack for it. April 14th is coming, you guys…
“WHAT’S SO EPIC AND WHY WILL IT BREAK OUR HEARTS?!?!”
I imagine it will break our hearts because pretty much all of our favorite characters are going to die. I can’t wait for season 8, but I’m also kind of dreading having to deal with all of the deaths. I had a hard enough time with Viserion’s death and we barely even got to know him! I can’t imagine having to sit through the deaths of Ghost, Drogon, etc…
Gwendoline Christie also said we’ll need therapy. I think most of these comments are coming from actors whose characters will die and they know it.
Oh, and Hodor…
Now I normally don’t dream about GOT (at least in years), but the other day I dreamed Jon Snow died in the second episode and then everyone was speculating he’d rise from the dead a second time.
Ryan Seacrest can suck an egg.
Emilia looked amazing, very cool dress and stunning makeup. I really love her natural hair colour. I also always love her enthusiasm! Jason looked like his velvet suit was too small. Lisa Bonet always looks like Predator.
I just hope we aren’t getting our hopes up for the epicness of it all so much that we feel shorted! Is that possible?
Emilia in comedy? What a good idea as i think she’ll be a natural, and someone should tell her never to do a Terminator act on us again.
Based on her many comments and especially her interview yesterday where she awkwardly alluded to the idea that some of the crazier heartbreaking moments will go down before the ending earlier in the season, I’m really starting to get set in believing that Dany dies midway through the season before whatever final conflict occurs.
I saw them interview Jason and Lisa on one or the other channels, E! or ABC, and it was kind of weird. The interviewer didn’t mention GoT (of course) and mainly just asked about their clothing. Jason was much more subdued with Lisa on his arm than he normally is on camera.
Not only is it possible, I think it’s very likely for at least a quarter of the fans. With all of the pet theories, favorite characters, and even the social politics involved with people wanting certain endings and certain characters to rule at the end of the day, it is going to be impossible for the creators to wrap this up in satisfying fashion for everyone.
I just know that if the many reports are even half true from the people who got to be on set and talk to the actors, creators and directors, no one can objectively accuse them of not trying as hard as possible to give us an epic, satisfying ending. They certainly did not mail this season in, either in the writing department or the production.
Clob,
Think I saw same interview. I’m sure Lisa Bonet’s a lovely woman but she seemed kind of pissed off about something like she couldn’t wait to get out of there. Made it uncomfortable to watch.
Most of these interviews leading up to the premiere are and will be bland and say the same thing. “Epic” and “shock”.
At this stage I expect Dany to die and maybe Jon too however which deaths would be the most shocking?
I’d go with the following:
1) Sam/Gilly
2) Arya
3) Tyrion
4) Bran
😂😂😂
Jon Snowed,
Well, we already know that if Arya dies Paris is leaving George. 😉
I know many won’t agree but if Jon dies, the whole show is ruined for me 😳🙈
Greetings all,
I imagine we’re all at fever pitch levels of anticipation for season 8. We’re alllllmost there. The long night from the end of season 7’s finale is almost broken by the dawn of season 8.
Also, while I’m sure HBO will drop a trailer. I kinda hope they don’t. Season 7’s trailer gave away a LOT. I miss the days of film and tv shows trailers that didn’t give away anything.
Just want to say while I rarely post here, I’d like to thank the admins and posters who’ve made this a fun place on the inter webs.
I wish you all good fortune in the wars to come.
I think Tyrion will die and possibly Dany. I think the remaining Stark clan will be left untouched. Just a strong feeling I have. Even though Daenerys is my favorite character, I’m resigned to her dying so I’m not so affected later.
Also, Emilia looked gorgeous and she’s going to be stunning once the true promo begins.
Jon Snowed,
I think Arya and Tyrion would have to top the list of most surprising deaths. Almost no one expects Arya to die. Tyrion’s chances of dying have risen lately due to the growing expectation among the fandom that he will betray Dany, but I think it would still be one of the most shocking deaths.
Lisa Bonet could be none too happy about her husband sidling up to his auxiliary wife.
… and Benioff and Weiss will have to leave the country.
Lisa Bonet is gorgeous and has been rockin’ locks since she was really young. Leave it to the Predator franchise for the constant comparison. She is on a few hilarious Drunk History episodes if anyone’s into that show.
Also, I know the cast has been saying we’ll be shocked, we’ll need therapy, it’s a bitter-sweet ending etc. etc. But I’m still hung up on Sophie’s interview after the table read over a year ago where she stated there would be even “MORE fantastical elements.” There’s already dragons, NK, AotD, CotF – what else can there beeee?!?
Mr Derp,
Since I strongly believe they will live, these would be my top most shocking (read surprising):
1. Arya
2. Sam, Gilly & Little Sam
3. Davos (book!Davos I feel differently about)
4. Missandei
I’ll be shocked (read pissed) if some others die but I won’t be surprised.
Dyanna,
Oh Jon is dying. No doubt
Extra Stark, Please,
I hope the trailer is a bit like this: 90seconds episode 1 and 2, 10 seconds episode 3, and 20 seconds for the remaining episodes. I hope the last 4 episodes will just be snippets in the trailer and that those scenes will feel like they could be in the first 3 episodes.
—
ps. about deaths: I think Tyrion will die in a way that we are going to hate a character we will love now a lot. Just my theory looking at last season.
She already filmed a comedy movie, “Last Christmas”, by the legendary Paul Feig. Will premiere in this year christmas.
I think Dany, Jaime, Cersei will die. I think Sansa, Arya, Bran and Tyrion will live. Jon is a tossup to me, but yeah I’m leaning towards him dying too. I don’t see all 3 Lannisters dying and Jaime and Cersei definitely will.
He looked like a waiter, I thought. Like one of those poolside cocktail-fetchers at pricey tropical resorts.
I’ve also seen cover bands at weddings in matching suits that looked like that.
Ice spiders big as hounds, my sweet summer child!
CGI Elephants 😀
Firannion,
*lol*
You made my day!
I desperately hope they don’t do a surprise major death early or half way through the season. If Dany or Jon did in episode 3/4 or earlier, it’ll be incredibly depressing.
ETA: just has to race back and remove emojis from the spoiler tagged text. I did not know there were immune to the grey treatment. I wonder if people could have guessed what the spoilery text was based purely on them! Makes for an interesting game idea.
Ice spiders, elephants… and ASNAWP is going to discover they hadn’t burned Wun Wun’s body yet and take his face… Okay, that’s getting a little carried away.
spacechampion,
I had a dream a few years ago before Jon and dany met. I only remember bits but somehow dany and all the Dothraki were running through the woods from white walkers and dany finds Jorah dying and he tells her to go to the wall and find Jon snow that he will know what to do. Was hoping for awhile my dream would come true in that way some how haha
Cersei’s Brain,
I also think this will happen… Daenerys will die too probably. Arya & Sansa team take the throne. Who knows though, it’s just my guess.
Jon Snow’s real parents – Dany & Drogo.
Che,
Yes to everything you said.
Dany is in trouble I’m afraid.
I’m cool with that, as long as there are no Elvish warriors surfing on them.
I suddenly have visions of Steve Buscemi singing in The Wedding Singer. 😂
I am definitely having an off day – I saw that as ‘Elvis Warriors’, and the visual went to a whole new level.
Elvis Warriors would also be inappropriate, but amusing nonetheless. Now you’ve got me picturing a barbarian in a greased pompadour and sequined white Las Vegas costume sitting amongst the visiting dignitaries at the Council of Elrond.
“It’s going to be huge, that much everyone needs to know…It took us a very long time to shoot this one for a very good reason. … I know there’s going to be some things in this last season that’s going to shock people.”
OK I’ll accept that, providing that there is not one whit whatsoever paid to “fan service.” Here’s hoping the writers can tell us a great story without resorting to all of the misinterpreted meanings some folk seem to have of the word “bittersweet.” I will say this: If all of the good guys and gals die, then the overall story (as well as the personal stories) will have been gratuitous as well as pointless. I don’t think Martin or Dan and Dave are that bad.
Che,
If Dany dies, the fetus dies with her. Between Dany, Jon and their baby, at least one has to survive. The baby can’t be born without it’s mother surviving at least 10 months of story time from the first episode.
I thought Jon had a tragic air about him, but that’s only caused by the lies told about his identity. There’s nothing tragic about him other than that he lost his parents. So, he isn’t necessarily doomed. Maybe when he finds out his true identity, he’ll actually want to live and won’t risk himself so much.
I rank survival:
1) Targ baby
2) Dany (survives beyond birth)
3) Jon
Best case scenario, all three survive.
I’m not trying to be an asshole, but I’m afraid I can’t see what basis Arya and Sansa have for taking the iron throne. They’re not heirs by blood, and they don’t have an army to conquer, seize and hold a throne. Arya wanted to be a knight, not a Queen, and she wanted to see the world. Sansa did want to be a queen, but only through marriage. I’m not down with the prospect of another Targ baby winding up in Stark hands.
I guess we’ll find out how much of an army Dany has left after she gets through carrying the North on her back, but as of last season, there wasn’t a basis for the Starks to sit the iron throne, in my opinion.
My tinfoil has always been that Jon is Lightbringer – his true purpose is to divert Daenerys to her true purpose. Her true purpose is to combat the Others. He takes/brings her north to the Others. Both characters are still around for this sole purpose. Jon is undead and was re-animated by the gods of light/fire as his purpose was still not met. Similarly, the dragons are a gift from the gods to fight the Others. Daenerys may also have died in the pyre and so is re-animated as well. When their work is done they will exit as the gods prefer. They are the major heroes for this magical role.
The future of Westeros lies with the fully normal humans. Jaime, Tyrion, Sansa, Brienne, Davos, Gendry, Bronn, Cersei, Sam, Gilly etc – some will live, some will die. The survivors will carry on and write tax policy etc. (I am stubborn enough to insist that against all odds Jaime will survive – after being heroic.)
I cannot decide about Arya and Bran. Bran is a bit like Smeagol (from LOTR) in that he is transformed by magic and focused on the main source of evil power. I cannot decide if he is good or bad (like Smeagol) or both (most likely). No idea what happens with these two. I think that Arya makes it but leaves WF to go on adventures.
Bran? It will be very interesting if Jaime has to take him out – again!
Anon,
“I guess we’ll find out how much of an army Dany has left after she gets through carrying the North on her back, but as of last season, there wasn’t a basis for the Starks to sit the iron throne, in my opinion.”
———-
The same could be said about Jon’s coronation as King in the North. It seems popular acclaim is just as valid a basis as bloodlines or the “traditional” rules of ascension.
All it’d take is someone like Lyanna Mormont to pipe up and proclaim: “I don’t care if she’s a woman. Ned Stark’s blood runs through her veins. She’s my queen, from this day until her last day.”
Then Lord Manderly follows with: “I was wrong! Arya Stark avenged the Red Wedding. She is the Wolf Girl. The Queen of the Seven Kingdoms!”
Dany and Jon: “Hey. What about us?”
Queensguard Sandor: “If any more words come pouring out your…”
[Okay. Sorry. I’ll stop.]
Mango,
Well, based on show-only canon, e.g., Melisandre’s recital of the “Warrior of Light” prophecy in S2e1, there are really only two viable candidates for the warrior who will wield Lightbringer: Jon Snow and Sandor Clegane.
Ten Bears,
Avenge vs revenge….perhaps someone with a fine knowledge of word usage can help with clarifying the difference between these words. I have always thought that “avenge” has connotations of justice that included claiming or a redistribution that overturns the main impact of the original offence.
So Sansa and Jon avenged the Red Wedding by overturning the major political outcomes of the Red Wedding. The major results were – Boltons took control of the North. Since then they were the Wardens of the North and continued to hold WF. Jon and Sansa overturned these impacts and reclaimed Stark control of the north.
Arya took revenge for the Red Wedding by wiping out the Freys. Killing for killing, but there was no redistribution outcome – the surviving Freys still hold their region.
I could be wrong – but I think that is why they said avenge.
Valar Morghulis S 2 E10
I predict Jon Snow will decapitate Tyrion, Qyburn will put Tyrion back together, The Night King will raise Tyrion from the dead… Drogon kills the Night King, Bran makes Tyrion the New Night King, Tyrion makes Daenerys the Night Queen.
Jon Snow is Azor Ahai – Daenerys is Nissa Nissa. Jon is the sword in the dark – the Light that brings the Dawn. As Jon Snow stabs Qhorin Halfhand in his heart Qhorin says “We are the watchers on the wall”
Ten Bears,
My tinfoil – Jon is Lightbringer. Lightbringer is a person. He will yield flaming swords. The flaming swords are the dragons. Basically, Daenyrs and her Dragons are Jon’s flaming swords.
His job was to go south to get the dragons to come north. Take/Bring the Light/Fire.
Yep, that is my simple-minded tinfoil.
Mel is usually a little mixed up. Me too, but I cope.
ok. 😃
Lyanna had a chance to do just that after the battle of the bastards, but she declined.
firstone,
You always take home the prize for Most Bizarre Tinfoil Construction.
Mango,
I’ve rarely seen “revenge” used as a verb, although I understand it’s not impermissible.
I’m going to look it up though.
(F*ck. Where’s King Stannis when you need him?)
Ten Bears,
To clarify…..
Revenge is a noun.
“To take revenge” is the verb usage. I used “took revenge” above so did not mean to suggest revenge is a verb.
That’s because nobody knew (and still don’t know) that Arya Stark carved up the two Frey jerkoffs who cut Catelyn’s throat and butchered Talisa and her unborn child, and then took out Walder himself. And people assumed Arya was dead (for some reason) until she arrived back at WF in S7e4, though BirdBrain Bran “saw” her at the Crossroads Inn (where she was in S7e2) but didn’t bother telling anyone she was alive or where she was.
If “avenging the Red Wedding” was the qualification, then Arya would be the clear-cut choice. Jon’s objectives in BoB were to save Rickon (❌); and take back Winterfell (✅). Roose Bolton was already dead by then, so “avenging the Red Wedding”, including meting out justice to the traitors who’d killed Lord Manderly’s son, Lyanna Mormont’s mother, and other slaughtered Northerner guests, was not Jon’s objective. Nor did he accomplish that. (Also, recall that the “first man” Arya killed, in S3e10, was the Frey doofus who was bragging about mutilating Robb’s body.)
Maybe I was (again) “watching but not seeing,” I didn’t see Jon Snow take out any of the Red Wedding perpetrators. I saw Arya Stark single-handedly exterminate all of the Freys who “helped slaughter the Starks at the Red Wedding”, according to faux Walder in the S7 cold open.
Ten Bears,
Awww. Always had a soft spot for those reddit theories postulating Jaime as Azor Ahai based partly on mistranslated prophecy. To quote from one:
Fair enough. I thought I knew, but now I’m uncertain, about the difference between “avenging” and “taking revenge.”
For better or worse, I’ve been trying to rely on “show-only” history. Even Mel’s S2e1 recital of the (Warrior of Light) prophecy is worded differently from the books! (Azor Ahai) version.
Ten Bears,
In th big scheme of things, the difference does not matter! We have too many other fun things to think and talk about…
Oh, Ten Bears, I love your pictorial representations 😆
These are pretty much my exact feelings. I have so much excitement, but so much dread at the same time.
For me, any character dying at this point is going to be brutal because we’ve been with them for so long.
I don’t think “tinfoil” even scratches the surface here..
Yup! At least here in Canada, it works out that the final episode airs on the May long weekend, and I plan on taking the following Tuesday off work, so I’ll have a good 2 full days to grieve. 🙂
(It goes without saying of course that Arya will survive, because she’s a survivor! “If my soup didn’t kill you, nothing will.” – Lady Crane, season 6 episode 8).
On Reddit, there was this one ‘leak’ I read in which:
And I laughed for weeks.
I wonder if using those spoiler tags is click-baity… but what if it turns out to be true??? 😉
Enharmony1625,
Oh right! Is it the Victoria Day long week-end on which the finale airs? I remember a thread where we realized we lived in the same city, I think? 😀
Let us pray Lady Crane’s words are confirmation of Arya’s survival. I need to start a prayer circle/support group/grief group or something.
Adrianacandle,
It is the Victoria Day long weekend (the finale airs on May 19). And yes I remember that thread; we’re both in Calgary. AKA that place where it’s been -20C for damn-near 4 weeks straight.. Ugh.
A support group sounds like a fine idea! 😀 It’s going to feel so weird when it’s over.
YES! With wind chills reaching -40 a few weeks ago! It has forced me to check my phone every hour in hopes it’s safe enough to walk to Tim Horton’s down the street without risking my lungs and face skin (I’m weak and soft.)
Yes, it’s going to be so weird when it’s over, right before summer! What a sad, sad summer… That support group is sounding more and more required… The Long Forever Night…
Sad, sad Victoria Day…
Enharmony1625,
“It goes without saying of course that Arya will survive, because she’s a survivor! “If my soup didn’t kill you, nothing will.” – Lady Crane, season 6 episode 8.”
______
• Good spot!
• As to Adrianacandle’s comment that “For me, any character dying at this point is going to be brutal because we’ve been with them for so long.:
The huge distinguishing factor (for me) is that we’ve witnessed Maisie Williams/Arya Stark grow up from a little girl to a young woman before our very eyes over the last 7 or 8 years. (No knock on Sophie Turner: she kind of looks the same as she did in S1.)
After all she’s been through, for Arya to not make it would make no narrative sense…and would put me in a deep funk for a long, long time.
I’ve already resigned myself to the demise of certain characters who are “living on borrowed time” like Sandor, (perhaps) Jon, Jaime, Cersei, Jorah, Beric and Tyrion. All have cheated death or evaded execution.
But Arya cannot perish. (As I’ve said before, if that happens the syndication value of GoT plummets to $0, and the showrunners could never show their faces in public again.)
Does anyone know why the altar where the children create the wight is green and snow free? In the background, you can see the arrowhead mountain close by, the same one that the Hound saw in the flames. Why was it green so far north and what happened to make the area frozen? This is the same place where they went to capture the wight in season 7 and it’s completely frozen.
Do you mean when they create the Night King? I I assume because it wasn’t winter at that time? That mountain can’t be too far from the wall if Gendry was able to run back and summon help when all seemed lost. I was under the impression, from reading the books, that the southern part of the “far north” around the wall wasn’t covered in snow in summer. It’s been a while since I read them, so maybe that’s wrong.
Is she not also living on borrowed time? (It seems like the majority of characters are – though some in more obvious ways than others I.e. Jon who quite literally is living on borrowed time as he should be dead).
Arya escaped the House of Black and White. aren’t we led to believe that anyone who does that is killed? We know Jaqen let her go and smiled, but we don’t know what the full ramifications are yet for Arya abandoning her training.
Other implications that she may die are the fact that she wiped out a whole house. Those sorts of things then to carry repercussions in Westeros. I feel that we haven’t seen the conclusion of that story yet and it may spell trouble for Arya.
I personally feel Arya is pretty safe – but everyone keeps telling us how shocking season 8 is going to be. That may be hype – or we may genuinely be surprised by those who perish (and by what means). Arya is, after all, going to be going into battle – that already places her in a hugely dangerous situation.
I also think that the argument that she has been through a lot and must therefore survive applies to all our lead characters – so I don’t know if we can rely on that as an argument.
I think the only “safe” characters at this stage are those who are secondary/tertiary characters who won’t be involved in the fighting or who don’t have an evil pixie-cut wearing queen after them – people like Gilly, Sam etc.
Like I said, I don’t personally think Arya will die, but I am preparing myself for that eventuality. I think we need to, or as you say, it will be so deeply upsetting to see come April/May. Especially with characters like Arya, who as you say, we saw grow up on screen.
I really hope you are wrong because Jon is my favourite character closely followed by Arya. For me the whole story will suck if he’s killed off again without having chance to rule the 7 kingdoms because the alternative rulers (Dany, Cersei, Sansa) are scary.
Anon,
Since it’s referred to as “The Land of Always Winter” I assumed it became “always winter” since the creation of the wights and the NK…that’s my speculation, at least.
My favourite is Jon too and I would be pretty devastated to see him die (again), but I have prepared myself for that eventuality. In my opinion the odds are against him.
The only thing that gives me hope is that last season we saw they had made him the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. We also know how important and long-standing the R+L=J theory is in the books – as GRRM famously tested D&D by asking who Jon Snow’s mother is (it must be of great significance). I don’t know that D&D would go totally off-piste with regards to Jon’s legitimacy, so I reckon it transpires that in the books he is a legitimate son of Rhaegar too. I feel this just has to have a deeper meaning than for him to die in battle and for none of it to actually mean anything. It may be that the deeper significance of it is that Rhaegar believed one of his children would be The Prince Who Was Promised, so maybe that is the point behind it all – it just feels like there should be more – why make him legitimate if that is the case? I feel like for Jon, a lot more so than for Dany (who is also a favourite of mine and who I don’t want to lose) there is hope to think he may make it out alive – purely because he is a “hidden king” (ala Strider) and it would feel hollow not to use him (just my thoughts).
It’s funny you say because in the UK some theory has arisen that either Cersei or Dany will be sacrificed (with child) to stop the army of the dead. I dismissed it as guess work but some have bought into it.
Hopefully you’re wrong lol
Dyanna,
Jon Snowed,
Che,
You’re not alone in the Jon love! I feel the same! My gut is telling me, “No, no, accept it,” but my heart is telling me, “….Hope, hope, there’s hope!” 😉 Ughghghgh!!
My favourites aren’t terribly original – Jon, Dany, Tyrion, and Arya – they’re the ones who really drew me into the story, into the books and TV show, and I found myself relating a lot to Sansa, loving the Brienne and Jaime interactions, Tormund, etc. so I’ve got those soft spots too. And I really love Lena Headey’s Cersei.
I think Ten Bears did a nice job of explaining why it would be so awful if the 0% (0!!) possibility happened that Arya didn’t survive. That kid in this huge helmet running late to the courtyard, leaping up into Jon’s arms, turning around in a saddle while clutching her wolf-loaf to tell Hot Pie, “It’s really good!”
I know the odds are against Dany and Jon, and I think it’s 99% guaranteed that at least one of these two will die but I’m going to be so gutted when that happens. And it’d be so super crappy if Tyrion, Sansa, Jamie, Brienne, Davos, or Tormund bit it too (if Tormund hasn’t already). I’m pretty confident Sansa, Bran, Gilly, and Sam are safe but I think the biggest punch to the gut for me would be Jon and/or Dany since they started out as my favourites from the first.
I was warned not to get invested! And I didn’t listen!!! Curses!!!
Che,
I don’t see it as Arya “escaping” the House of Black & White. If anything, she abided by the rule that “one way or another a face will be added to the wall.” She could’ve skeedaddled out of town and dumped the Waif’s body in a canal on the way. Instead, she went back to the HoBW, mounted the Waif’s face, confronted Jaqen 2.0, and got his approval to leave.
Nor did she Polliverize Jaqen 2.0 when she had Needle pointed at him and he admitted sending the Waif to kill her.
I’d say she earned her Get Out of Braavos Free card.
Adrianacandle,
I know many are convinced Jon will die but to me, it seems the most pointless end for him. There is nothing bitter sweet about an ending with Jon dead and nothing “satisfying” about such an ending if that phrase used by the cast is to be believed. So in my view, Jon needs to survive, or what was the point? Perhaps the fate he has in store is immortality, a terrible burden where those you love grow old and die, while you don’t age at all. “Lord Snow, you’ll be fighting their battles forever”.
The biggest fan favourite generally speaking amongst the public seems to be Tyrion. Most people don’t even seem to consider that he would be killed off, so he’s probably the most likely to die if they run true to form with this story.
Can everyone in Calgary start sucking instead of blowing? You’ve been sending it right into Minnesota!! 😛
Seriously, what started out as a mild Winter until Christmas Day has turned into the worst one I can remember over the last two months.
Ooooooo. I hadn’t considered this possibility, but I rather like it. Evokes Arwen being doomed to outlive Aragorn but no longer allowed to sail west to Valinor, so that the consummation of their marriage after so many decades of waiting is deeply bittersweet.
I can’t see Undead Jon being a permanent fixture on the Iron Throne (which is long overdue for being melted, anyway). But he might consent to rule long enough to accomplish some Tikkun Olam-ing, and then disappear into the unknown somewhere. Become a ranger, like he wanted in the beginning, exploring the Land of Formerly Always Winter. Or take ship with Arya for her second voyage to the New World (after she brings back bittersweet dark chocolate from the first voyage).
An inconsolably lonely and burdened Jon suits his character, and also fits well with GRRM’s stated intention of having an ending similar in tone to the Scouring of the Shire. The survivors should have to live with wounds and losses and sacrifices for the greater goal that never entirely go away.
I thought that when Jon arrives at the wall, it’s still summer. When the children create the wight walker, in the background the arrowhead mountain is green and there is grass and moss and a flowing waterfall in the foreground. It’s only in the far, far distance that I see a snow-covered mountain.
Then they strap the guy to the weirwood tree, which is covered in leaves. There are megaliths that the children form into a kind of vortex shape. Bran reacts like he already knows what’s going to happen when she approaches with the dragonglass dagger.
It’s peculiar how the wights form that same vortex shape from horse parts. What do they say Stonehenge was used for? I saw somewhere that there was human sacrifice… I don’t know if it was religious in nature or a kind of justice system where people were punished for crimes.
sooo many questions! I wanna see how many answers I can get in the final season.
Anon,
It is indeed Summer when Jon arrives at The Wall, however, in living memory at least, the land north of the Wall (including that bit where the Children create the NK), has always been Winter, hence the name The Land of Always Winter. It remains winter even when the rest of Westeros experiences Summer. That’s why my speculation is that it became a land of perpetual Winter when the “the Others” and the Night’s King were banished there during the age of heroes.
I’m also interested in those symbols and designs. They were even drawn into the caves at Dragonstone. I wonder if that will be re-visited in S8 at all or if it was just a callback to what we’ve previously seen.
Different thread but let me start by saying this, I’ve watched the 5 second clip of the unsullied marching with the 747 that is Drogon doing a fly-by overhead at least 12 times and immediately had a bout of goosebumps every….single…time…
Now, onto this thread. What I’m hung up on is Dany’s reaction/comments she made to what I believe was her first read-through of the scripts for season 8. Not sure when it was (seems like it was well over 6-8 months ago) as we’ve had 2 years and I’ve had plenty of beers since then.
But, her reaction to me screamed disappointment in her own character’s arc. I am going off of memory here (scary) but she basically came across as deflated and kinda bummed out. Think cross but not quite pissed. Now, what sort of behavior from her character would cause that reaction?
Very soon after her comments Nick/Jaime came out and said something about being glad he didn’t have to sit in makeup for hours to be reanimated like some actors….
**beerbong off**
Now this is probably as close to actual truth as any Trump tweet but I can’t seem to forget about it. Maybe I can go search the archives for when Dany said it.
But I digress, needless to say I am excited for S8. I’m currently in S4 of my re-watch and hope I can make it through S5…
Anon,
I believe the cotf scene with the dragonglass was suppose to be long ago so there wouldn’t be any relation to the weather in the show’s timeline.
What the show did though was add confusion if you ask me. Bran has his vision and saw Leaf supposedly present during the creation of the White Walkers. Book!Leaf is only around 200 years old. That doesn’t quite add up considering the Others/WW were around thousands of years ago. Are we suppose to believe show!Leaf was thousands of years old? Did they change it so the creation of the WW was less than 200 years ago? Maybe this scene was suppose to be the creation of the show’s Night King and he simply “woke” or brought back the rest of the WW?? Leaf’s answer to Bran perhaps was saying that they did in fact originally create the WW but they had gone dormant or something until woken again by Leaf and company?????
Anon,
Re Stonehenge, they don’t know exactly, most likely it’s a highly prized ceremonial ground, it contains lots of aubrey holes which contain the cremated remains of individuals who are assumed to be of high status people, there’s no evidence to suggest they were sacrificed there.
The heel stone of the henge works as a annual calendar, the sun rises exactly there on summer solstace sunrise. There’s an avenue which leads to it from the village of Avebury which is encircled by “male” and female shaped stones itself. The landscape between the two contains hundreds of barrow burials, often with high status goods and individuals buried within.
It’s some beautiful heavy mystic shit but we have no idea exactly what it is. I’m not expecting resolution on the horsey spiral.
Shinyshep,
Could it all be the design and creation of visitors from another world?
Ancient astronaut theorists say, “yes.”
😀
I’ve attempted this post 4 times but apparently have been banished to moderation purgatory. So I’ll try this again with 1 edit.
What I’m hung up on is Dany’s reaction/comments she made to what I believe was her first read-through of the scripts for season 8. Not sure when it was (seems like it was well over 6-8 months ago) as we’ve had 2 years and I’ve had plenty of beers since then.
***Tinfoil beer bong hat** Simply put, what if the character that at the end of season 6 sat in the strongest position of all of them (dragons, ships, armies etc) doesn’t even make it through half of S8?? What if she dies in the first 3 eps whether it is complete death or reanimated death… I’d be pissed as well.
Very soon after her comments Nick/Jaime came out and said something about being glad he didn’t have to sit in makeup for hours to be reanimated like some other actors….
**beerbong off
Now this is probably as close to actual truth as any tweet by the toddler in chief but I can’t forget about it. Maybe I can go search the archives for when Dany said it.
But I digress, needless to say I am excited for S8. I’m currently in S4 of my re-watch and hope I can make it through S5…
Clob,
We all say yes to that possibility!
The Land of Always Winter is very far north of the wall – it’s towards the north of the continent of Westeros beyond the Haunted Forest (directly beyond the wall), the Frostfangs (mountains beyond the forest) and then some other stuff I forget the names of. There it is always winter and it probably did start with the arrival/creation of the WW, because it is said the COTF lived there previously in summery times. Maybe that is where the WW have been hiding for 10,000 years waiting for… reasons that will be revealed in S8 (I hope!!).
I can’t find any references, but I do seem to recall mention of the wall weeping in summer months (which it would only do if temps went above a few degrees C). I believe the haunted forest at least doesn’t always see snow. Craster for example has livestock – they would not survive negative temps for very long – so it must be a bit milder near the wall.
Jon arrived at the tail-end of summer, so I guess the cold had already arrived. In the books I do recall his chapters mentioning the wall was weeping – but I just can’t remember much else!
Note to self – reread books!!
As does the History Channel. Ya know, the channel that no longer has anything to do with history, lol. All they show now are “Ancient Aliens” marathons and shows about people driving trucks or working with mud. It’s brutal.
Dyanna,
I hope you’re right about Jon! I’d hate for Tyrion to die, but I hope you’re right about Jon making it too! 🙂
Yes, that would be terrible and heartbreaking – alone and without peace forever. Do you think this would be a fate worse than death?
It was always my thought that Jaqen never intended for her to stay No One right from the beginning. He was giving her the opportunity to learn the skills, and leave with them. Just my idea. 🙂
Slow day at work today, I went back in the archives (kudos WOTW yall make that easy as pie..) and I found the Dany article that has just stuck with me. It was from May 2018 and I’ll shroud it below as a spoiler more or less b/c I just figured out how to do that..
In an story with Vanity Fair Emilia Clarke discusses GoT….
quoting from the article: she’s already shot Dany’s “final on-screen moments.” In her own words, it fucked me up. Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is…”
Crikey!
[/spoilers]
Reading it again still has me perplexed.
Rizzo T,
for the life of me I am going to figure out how to use this site
[spoilers]
kids, don’t drink whilst working. well, just don’t work and you’ll be good
[/spoilers]
>.<
Rizzo T,
Use spoiler, not spoilers.
facepalm.
I drink and i know no things….
Got it.
Carry on!
Rizzo T,
Yeah, Emilia certainly came across as less than pleased with her character’s denouement. It sounds like, even if she doesn’t go full-blown Mad Targ, she’s going to do something that really disturbs the fanbase (executing Tyrion would definitely do the trick, and I desperately hope that’s not the answer). Or else the last time we see her, she’ll be wightified. I have no problem with her arc falling short of heroism, but there are a few characters I’d never forgive her for killing.
Anyone remember the list of actors known to have been present for the S8 Dragonpit scene?
I don’t think it was ever confirmed exactly who was at the dragon pit scene as they held a party in the same town and flew in a ton of people. I know Frikidoctor claimed to know some of who shot there but he’s been wrong before. The only one we know who doesn’t appear is Emilia because she was in the US at that time and I think that’s one of the reasons people believe Dany will be dead by that point in the story.
Dyanna,
“So in my view, Jon needs to survive, or what was the point? Perhaps the fate he has in store is immortality, a terrible burden where those you love grow old and die, while you don’t age at all. “Lord Snow, you’ll be fighting their battles forever”.
_____________
That describes to a T the Dr. Who episodes starring
The Doctor implants in her some alien battlefield medical device that heals anything, to bring her back to life – but it essentially makes her immortal. The Doctor takes off on his next adventure in time and space, but the happy ending turns sour, because years and then centuries pass, and all those people the girl loves grow old and die while she doesn’t age.
Flash forward a thousand years or so, and the Doctor encounters her again, by happenstance (in the follow-up episode, “The Woman Who Lived”). Having been marooned and abandoned by the Doctor, and condemned to lose everyone she loves to illness or old age, she’s no longer the sweet, beloved girl he’d first met. She’s now become a notorious highwayman, robbing travelers as a hobby to try to relieve the endless tedium of existence.
At first, she thinks he’s come back to take her away with him on adventures through time and space. Taking off her mask and revealing her identity, she asks the Doctor playfully: “What took you so long, old man?” But he soon tells her he’s just there on a mission – not for her.
When he realizes how bitter and angry she’s become, the Doctor asks [something like] “What happened to you? I saved your life.”
She replies. “You didn’t save my life. You trapped me in it.”
He soon learns of all the heartbreak she’s had to endure, e.g., outliving all of the villagers who loved her; having children but watching them die of the plague; being forced to leave her husband before he notices she’s not aging; suffering condemnation as a witch; fighting in wars; etc.
Oops. I didn’t mean to ramble on like that. I intended to agree with your observation that for Jon, immortality would indeed be “a terrible burden” – a fate probably worse than dying. He’d already implored Melisandre before the BoB that if he fell in battle, “don’t bring me back again.”
Speaking of Mel… I doubt I’d opt for longevity if it meant looking like the decrepit old geezer we saw when she took off her ruby necklace, i.e., without the magical “glamour.” For that matter, Beric has been ready to die for a long time but that wily jester, the Lord of Light, keeps him alive for some undisclosed reason. [I’ll have to rewatch “Beyond the Wall” to get his exact quote.]
If that’s Jon’s fate…to be be a soldier guarding the realms of men who’ll “be fighting their battles forever” … that’d be a shocker.
I like your thinking. 👍
That would make sense. Otherwise, his express inducement to Arya that she could offer up the names on her list to the [something] god “one by one” if she accepted his invitation to enroll in Murder School, would’ve been a cheap bait-and-switch for no good reason.
I did some digging, and it appears that Alfie Allen was another actor not reported being seen in Sevilla by anyone. That makes me sadder than Emilia not being present. I’m still clinging to my shreds of hope that Theon will hang in there until the end, not having to cash in his life for full redemption.
My opinion is likely to be controversial, but I don’t know if Theon can be fully redeemed and it’s for a very unlikely reason in the grand scheme of things – his killing of two innocent little boys. I love Alfie Allen’s portrayal and I have become very fond of Theon due to the hardships he has suffered and how he has grown so much ever since, but I don’t know if he will ever be redeemed.
That’s not to say that I think he should have to die (I don’t believe in capital punishment – so I am not looking forward to his death), I just don’t think he’ll ever be redeemed. Maybe it’s the overly-emotional maternal side in me kicking in, but I have been horrified by the death of those two boys since I first saw that episode. I’d just had my first child (as in, he was only three weeks old and slept on my chest throughout every episode of season 2) when I watched that season and as I was overly hormonal due to recent babyness, it may have imprinted on me in ways I haven’t been able to let go.
I don’t know, there is a lot of violence in GOT and a lot of our favourites kill people and sometimes do things we question – but killing those two kids (or ordering their deaths through Ramsay/one of his men) is possibly the worst thing I can think of one of the popular characters on the show doing, purely for their utter innocence. I don’t know if Theon can ever be redeemed for that.
Fantastic! The disappearing post rash is flaring up again. I guess I just won’t post what I spent time writing >:(
Pigeon,
Here’s an excerpt from the scene I was referring to in my 4:46 pm reply:
From S2e10, “Valar Morghulis”
Arya: “How did you kill those guards? Was it hard?”
Jaqen: “No harder than taking a new name, if you know the way.”
Arya: “Show me how. I want to be able to do it too.”
Jaqen: “If you would learn, you must come with me.”
Arya: “Where?”
Jaqen: “Far and away across the Narrow Sea to Braavos.”
Arya: “My dancing master was from Braavos.”
Jaqen: “To be a dancing master is a special thing, but to be a Faceless Man, that is something else entirely. A girl has many names on her lips. Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin Lannister, llyn Payne, the Hound. Names to offer up to the Red God. She could offer them all, one by one.”
Che,
Not to mention beheading Rodrik and playing a major part in the actions that resulted in Luwin’s death, along with others at Winterfell.
Now that I think about it, you guys might be on to something. And wasn’t there something about
I think in recent interviews she gave, Lena kinda backed that idea up that Cersei could survive, since she seems to always say something like “Team Cersei” and that she seems to be the only one rooting for her (Like she’s saying nobody’s expecting it, but just wait). Of course it could just her being patriotic and praising her own role, which makes sense for every actor and it’s her right, but what if she tries to promote the thought or idea of Cersei either living in the end or be one of the last ones standing, while camouflaging her comments in being controversial for fun and rooting for a character nobody wants to see winning (at least not for the good of westeros). I think there were at least like three different interviews in which she said she’s rooting for her iirc, but then she always got asked directly, so it could just her being protective. But at this point literally the whole world is expecting Cersei to die that I can honestly imagine her to live in the end. George loves controversy after all. I mean at this point she has nobody besides a fragile alliance with an even more fragile Euron, which seriously gives her the biggest target on her back. And because of the prophecy she’s even more doomed. In my eyes it’s just too convenient for her to die, because all odds are against her. She surely won’t be the queen of Westeros in the end, that’s for sure.
But all this is just purely specualation really. Everyone could turn into an unicorn in the end and we wouldn’t know it.
Also: We need leaks lol
Just read through all the comments (except spoiler covers)… highly enjoyable discussions today!
Che,
I am with you here- maybe your opinion is not so unpopular? Or maybe it’s just the two of us.. I don’t really want to see a real redemption for Theon- at least not one that involves him living as some kind of ward of the iron islands. I wouldn’t mind seeing him finally get his balls back and give his life to save his sister though. She has gone well out of her way to help him (at times to the detriment of the show, I might add- her failed rescue mission, to me, was a ridiculous waste of screen time).
Perhaps it could be argued that we had to see how far gone he really was- but I don’t think anybody was under the illusion that Theon hadn’t fully become reek by that point.
Anyway, rambling now. Though I like Alphie Allen, I am most definitely not wasting prayers on Theon. With the certain deaths of so many beloved characters, I would actually prefer he doesn’t live.
Che,
Pigeon: It was always my thought that Jaqen never intended for her to stay No One right from the beginning. He was giving her the opportunity to learn the skills, and leave with them. Just my idea. 🙂
I tend to agree… so the question remains- did someone put the house of black and white up to the task of training the stray wolf? Was it The iron bank? Seems like a lot of planning would have had to go into making that chance meeting happen.
Did Jaqen just see something in Arya from the get go? Did his desire to train her originate when she saved his life?
Che,
• I don’t think Theon wants to be forgiven or be redeemed. Here’s what he told Sansa in S6e2 after they escaped WF and Brienne took out the Boltons’ posse:
Theon: “He won’t stop hunting us.”
Sansa: “We just have to make it to Castle Black. Once we’re with Jon, Ramsay won’t be able to touch us.”
Theon: “Jon will have me killed the moment I step through the gate.”
Sansa: “I won’t let him. I’ll tell him the truth about Bran and Rickon.”
Theon: “And the truth about the farm boys I killed in their place. And the truth about Ser Rodrik, who I beheaded. And the truth about Robb, who I betrayed.”
Sansa: “When you take the black, all your crimes are forgiven.”
Theon: “I don’t want to be forgiven. I can never make amends to your family for the things I’ve done.”
• Whether successful or not, Theon’s mission to rescue Yara from Euron has nothing to do with redemption for his egregious transgressions against the Stark family. I hope that little detour is over in a hurry.
• A self-sacrificial act to save the life of a Stark, like stepping in front of Jon or Sansa to take an arrow shot at one of them, is the only thing that can mitigate Theon’s guilt somewhat. He’d probably welcome that opportunity – just as he was willing to give himself up to the Bolton pursuers (and endure more gruesome torture) in an unsuccessful attempt to divert them from Sansa’s hiding place right before Brienne and Pod came to the rescue.
• Isn’t dying a heroic death better for Theon than any kind of life he could live?
Obviously, but forcing him to live a long life with his guilt, doing whatever good he can do in the world in order to expiate it in any inadequate way he can, would be an outcome that both subverts the heroic self-sacrifice trope and takes the drama to another level of nuance. It also fits nicely as a piece of the bittersweet, Scouring of the Shire-style ending. Theon jumping in front of a spear thrust to save a Stark seems like kind of a trite and tidy way out, to me. A life sentence is worse punishment than an execution, in my view. I’ve grown to appreciate endings that leave things at least a little out of balance, with not every character getting what we think they deserve. Seems more like real life.
All questions that we may get to see resolved in the books. In 6 more episodes of TV, not so much.
I wonder if what Jaqen really meant was that the FM – agents who did not know any of Arya’s enemies personally, per their protocol – could take out these names one by one, rather than Arya herself, if she ‘offered them up’ and paid for the assassination service by pledging her own life to the HoBaW. He might’ve been luring her in with a half-truth.
I’m over (and have been for awhile) the notion of wanting Theon to suffer forever. He cannot take back what he did (nor can half the characters in the show.) He saved Sansa from Ramsay, Jon (who had every reason not to) outright forgave him what was his to forgive, and offered that he didn’t have to choose between identities. He’s broken physically and mentally yet will at least attempt to save his sister.
Likely he’ll die, maybe he won’t. But as far a redemption goes, in my book he has done it. More than was thought he would be able.
I have gone from Theon being my least favourite character in the entire series, to wanting to see him have at least some bit of happiness again. Alfie Allen gets credit for a big percentage of that feeling.
Valenqar….the Hound? Theon? Jon Aegon Targaryen ( the younger brother of the murdered prince and princess)? I don’t want big gut wrenching surprises but something like this would be cool. After all if Tolkien was a big inspiration for George, Sam and Frodo both made it back to the Shire and Viggo married Liv Tyler…Also the comments in a previous thread about Melisandre smelling “like a forge” and her always talking about the fire within, shes gotta be Nissa Nissa. Please let Dany Jon and Drogon live, everyone else except Pod, Arya and Bron can go by by.
You’re both right. Science Fiction is not my speciality, but most SF films and books I know of that feature humans who acquire immortality have a twist that puts it in a bad light. Those Dr Who episodes illustrated that perfectly. The Doctor does not suffer so much because he’s born and raised to be immortal and also gets rebooted into another Doctor with another set of companions and adventures. Lady Me/Doctor Who–they’ve both also lost their names. Concerning names, this intimation of mortality shows death’s upside and part of the reason that Faceless Men giving the Gift really can be a blessing. As Ser Aliser also said, “I fought. I lost. And now I rest.” Which is preferable to the fate he predicted for Jon.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
I have seen some talk of Tolkien’s middle earth upthread… the immortality/mortality question always reminds me of the gift of death awarded to Elrond’s brother after the first war with Sauron. His descendants became men; those with the most noble, mortal/elvish blood remain the numenoreans… still living longer lifespans, yet eventually receiving deaths release.
I would be surprised if this is Jon’s fate- however, i suppose it is possible.
Pigeon,
But he killed Myranda!!!!
😢 💔
Firannion,
Oh yeah, I agree. Not likely to see that onscreen. The details of Aryas recruitment are not even a loose end on the show at this point- just speculation between fans. I do hope we get some of that flushed out in the books, lots of interesting possibilities.
And it was glorious 😉
The cinematography, I mean. Nothing against crazy, manipulative accomplices to evil
I forgot about that.
Now I like him even more! 😀
Makes sense to me that Theon lives…
Mr Momoa did something right to marry Ms Bonet, besides being breathtakingly lovely she looks to be Emilia’s age and if my memory serves, Mrs Momoa is 50 or thereabouts.
I feel he has gone a long way in terms of redemption, but for me personally, saving the life of one woman doesn’t redeem the killing of two innocent children. Personally, I don’t know if anything can – especially when you look at his motives – he killed two children who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, to pretend he had killed two other children and then burnt their corpses and hung them from a wall. I don’t think morally there’s ever any coming back from that.
Che,
Just an interesting thought experiment: if the two boys he’d killed has actually been Bran and Rickon, if he had succeeded in finding them and murdered them and burnt them, would your people’s opinions of his redemption be the same I wonder? Just a curious thought. Is it the anonymity of the boys he killed that makes the act seem less irredeemable?
That’s because it isn’t something that’s redeemable. He can’t fix that, he can’t do anything to “make up for” that, so he goes on, only able to regret it and be haunted by it. I suppose at least he has the capacity to feel regret, unlike say Ellaria for murdering Myrcella, or whichever Sand Snake killed Trystane, or the innocents Cersei likely blew up as collateral damage.
Pigeon,
You make a good point- Theon is not unique in having made irredeemable choices. However, what is different about Theon than say, Jaime or Sandor, is that his motivations are entirely self serving, driven by an entirely ego-centric, self aggrandizing set of desires. And yes, while he cannot alter the past or directly reconcile the mistakes of his past, he can start making better choices. This is why I’m just kindof done with his story. Any last hope for him, in my mind, was gone when he wussed out on the ship. I don’t need another round of Theon pulling up his big boy pants and setting out to do better. They could have just as easily had him fall off the ship, or had Euron push him off, while attempting to free Asha. That wouldn’t have changed anything for his story after the fact, but it would have done a lot of work reinstating any enthusiasm for his character- like, cmon, just a little bit of redemption. It seemed like a reversal for him, a big step backward. And maybe that’s the tragic element of his story- he’ll never be truly free again… he’ll always be a bit reekish.
I realize my words on an above post were a bit harsh- I don’t actually wish death on any remaining characters- I just meant that I don’t foresee so many of the characters making it out alive, and he would not make my short list for hopeful survivors.
You kidding me? Jaime and the Hound are constantly going on about how they love, love killing people. It’s their favourite thing to do! Killing people just for the fun, how is that not self-serving and ego centric?
I mean….Jaime tried to kill a kid just so he could keep fucking his sister. Didn’t give a toss about his own kids. He was selfish as hell
costello,
At what point did you check out? Season 2? A lot has transpired since then…
Sister Kisser,
When did you? Jaime was doing heinous shit in Season 4 as well if you recall. And 6. And Season 7. Unless you think destroying the Tyrells was a neutral act.
Jaime’s Season 7 crimes: Butchering thousands of Tyrells, upholding the rule of his insane twin/lover who blew up half the kingdom.
Theon’s Season 7 crimes: Running away because of his PTSD.
Damn, pretty equal!!
costello,
Lol. I can see this means a lot to you. I will say that my “impressions” of Jaime and Sandor (the hound is dead) are that they have increasingly conducted their behavior out of a dedication to duty, love, or honor, and even the very worst of their actions early on in the series were done for these motivations. I never saw that with Theon, except when helping Sansa escape ( and this only well after watching her be severely abused firsthand). I saw only the motivations of a self-centered, angry teenager craving attention, driving him to irredeemable actions. Despite many opportunities, he has yet to right that ship, and yeah, I’m kinda over his story.
It’s ok to disagree on this.
Test. Are posts disappearing for everyone else or is really this quiet?
* well this one showed up… Of course my “real” post didn’t.
Clob,
Test comments always show up. Real ones…not so much.
I somehow missed this one TB. I agree with everything you said. I don’t think he wants to be redeemed either nor do I think he feels it’s possible after what he did in those first few seasons.
I hope he gets to save his sister and after that, who knows. Just because I don’t feel he can be redeemed, doesn’t mean I want him to spend his life in misery plagued by what he has done. A lifetime spent doing good deeds and as Pigeon said, feeling regret for what he has done so their lives are never forgotten, would be something I can get on board with. I don’t expect him to survive though.
I didn’t see it as wussing out. He made the accurate call in that situation, though his PTSD kicking in likely was a factor as well. He knew that he’s not as good a hand-to-hand fighter as Euron – he wasn’t, even before Ramsay started breaking him down physically (though it’s not as obvious in the show version that he’s missing fingers and toes) – and Euron was holding a blade to Yara’s throat. Theon correctly concluded that attacking Euron in that moment would have resulted in both his and his sister’s immediate deaths, to no purpose other than a demonstration of bravado. Going out in a blaze of glory. If only his own life was at stake, he’d probably have gone for it. But jumping in the ocean would give him one more long shot at rescuing her. He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day.
I’m curious to find out, if she lives, what was going on in Yara’s mind at that moment. She neither said anything defiant, pleaded for herself, urged Theon to save himself nor mocked him, and it was hard to tell from her eyes.
That was my impression too. Had he made a move, Yara would have been toast before he closed the distance. Yara might have appreciated the sentiment, but only for about half a second. Euron dispatched Nymeria and Obara about as easily as if he were playing tag – what was Theon going to do?
Look, I don’t condone Theon’s early actions and like I said, couldn’t stand him until later seasons. But they’ve been pretty convincing in portraying his remorse and guilt and his wish to somehow put a few pieces back together in regards to his family (both of them) after all he’s suffered.
Firannion,
Pigeon,
To the point of whether or not Theon weighed his options and made the right calculated decision for his, and Yara’s, survival, I yield to your wiser notions. I suppose he could have charged them both and took his chances knocking all of them overboard (unlikely, but one possible strategy); or he could have considered the possibility that taking a stab at charging them and hoping that together, they would have died a warrior’s death, and the possibility of taking Euron out with them, just may have worked. Yes, it would have been a display of reckless bravado, and likely would have meant death. Instead, Theon escapes with his tail between his legs, and Yara is left to endure the torture as a prisoner of their insane uncle (arguably a fate not unlike Theon’s as a prisoner of Bolton)
As I waded into this conversation earlier- I was primarily interested in the questions being raised about whether or not he’s on a redemption arc- if any of his actions were even redeemable, and whether or not he is exhibiting any redeeming qualities. Whether or not he’s committed actions unworthy of any possible redemption, it seems that there is some agreement that he has indeed stepped over that line. The actions in and of themselves are heinous crimes, and examining his motivations reveals nothing worthy of reconsideration. As costello noted above, other characters have also committed such actions. The difference for me is that the other characters mentioned, Jaime and Sandor, despite having committed earlier unredeemable actions, have since exhibited considerable redeemable qualities, and are in that way, changing their relationship with, most of, the audience. (don’t hate the player, hate the game…. or whatever). I suppose “save sansa” and “confide in sansa” come into play here.
From a storytelling perspective, I just thought his jumping ship only to have him wash back up re-committed to saving Yara, was cheap (and wuss-like). Had the showrunners had him ejected off the boat trying to do something useful- the next time we saw him, we as viewers would have a little more to attach our hopes or desires to, and nothing else, plot-wise, would have changed. Some reason for a bit of enthusiasm, and maybe his scene with Jon would have landed a bit better. Is it not the case that instead, what we’re left with is a shell of a character we can only feel somewhat reluctant pity for? Is this really all his story resolves to? He’s just a guy who screwed up really bad in an attempt to satisfy his own delusional ambitions, got caught and tortured, did one or two brave deeds, sunk back into hollow abandon, and now we just feel pity for him? Should we actually be excited for his upcoming “save Yara” saga? I’m not, and apologies to anyone who is. Totally your opinion, and this is not personal. This is just my attempt to explain why I’m tired of his arc, and would rather see screentime devoted to other storylines I’m much more invested in.
Interesting how the show! storyline I care the least about (Greyjoys) is one in the books that I am actually very excited to see play out. Now I just don’t wanna waste screen minutes on it. I realize these are probably unpopular sentiments. Now watch the show just kill it with Theon in S8….
Also, Firannion- looking back at that scene, I see a bit of rage, followed by disappointment, settle in to Yara’s face as she realizes he’s not even gonna try. She’s a warrior and probably would have welcomed a warrior’s death, over imprisonment and torture under her insane uncle Euron.
I don’t think there’s any doubt that Theon is on a redemption arc – at least as much as Jaime or Sandor. I may be in the minority, but my pity for him is by no means reluctant. That’s probably partly because I believe that nearly anybody can be rehabilitated, regardless of what they’ve done in the past. I also see Theon as a guy who has, since he was taken hostage at the age of 9 or 10, found himself over and over again in situations where there were no possible good choices, so he had to make bad ones. I can empathize with his desire to win the approval of his birth family. I suppose I’m also swayed by the fact that in the books, the idea to kill the two farm boys and pass them off as Bran and Rickon is urged on him by ‘Reek,’ later revealed to be Ramsay. The torture he has endured expiates a lot, in my view.
I’m sorry to hear that his ‘You can be both’ scene with Jon didn’t ‘land well’ with you. I was very moved by it. In fact, it was one of my two favorite scenes from Season 7, alomg with Olenna’s final mic drop.
Firannion,
I don’t think you’re in the minority- I think a lot of people feel genuine pity for Theon and want to see him redeemed. I suppose I felt that way a few seasons back. I also saw some people upthread suggesting he is irredeemable, which I don’t agree with- I think while his actions may be, certainly anyone can show redeeming qualities with better choices. Theon is clearly broken, and I suppose I should feel more pity- but I am indeed very reluctant. Selfish me just doesn’t care about that storyline anymore.
You mentioned his wardship from a young age. I would wager that he had a better upbringing in Winterfell than he would have had on Pyke. He had brothers there, whom he betrayed. While I understand him wanting to be accepted by his ancestral family, I don’t give him a pass on his decision to betray and totally sell out the family he grew up with.
I suppose at this point it goes without saying- so much of the brilliance in these stories are the layers of dimension found in these characters. Nothing and nobody is just black or white (a certain house in braavos notwithstanding). Anyway, thanks for helping me realize I should be a bit more forgiving.
That last scene with Olenna- so good. She was amazing