Director Jeremy Podeswa discusses the uncertain future of Jon and Dany, filming an ‘intense’ death and Tyrion’s jealousy

All aboard, whether you like it or not.

All aboard, whether you like it or not.

Whether you shipped them from the get-go or eye-rolled your way through their season-long courtship of sorts, the S.S. Jonerys set sail in Game Of Thrones‘ season 7 finale, “The Dragon and the Wolf” with a roll in the sheets for Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen. Some of the realm cringed at the aunt-nephew incest (although they kind of get a pass, since they don’t know yet they’re related), but mostly, the Jon-Dany hookup brought up a whole new host of questions about what happens next.

“It’s an epic revelation about the past, and an epic revelation that’s suggestive of the future and what’s going to happen,” director Jeremy Podeswa told The Hollywood Reporter. “For us, it was very important that there be a question about what could possibly happen after this moment. We know now the full history that led to this moment, but now what’s going to happen?”

“We built in a moment between Kit and Emilia where they stopped for a moment and looked into each other’s eyes. The intention from my point of view, and their point of view too, is that they’re driven by passion into this. They don’t even fully understand what it’s all about and what the consequences of it are. They really can’t stop themselves. It’s almost destiny that’s bringing them together,” Podeswa added.

He also touched on the “intense” mood on set during the scene in which Arya killed Littlefinger, which was so moving for some crew that it brought tears to their eyes while filming.

“Aidan [Gillen]’s performance was so, so passionate, and so surprising in a way. You know, he’s an amazing actor, but there’s a color we haven’t really seen from him on this show, because throughout the series, he’s a character who manipulates things, who controls things, who’s on top of everything,” Podeswa said. “He seems to hold all the cards most of the time. This is the first time where we’ve seen him completely thrown and completely unbalanced and really having to beg for his life in the end. He’s so vulnerable, and I thought what he brought to the scene was so amazing. We were really just riveted, all of us, just watching it.”

Few things were more satisfying to "Thrones" viewers than Littlefinger meeting his end.

Few things were more satisfying to “Thrones” viewers than Littlefinger meeting his end.

Podeswa also discussed his reaction to learning that the Wall would be brought down at the end of the episode by the Night King riding a resurrected Viserion.

“It was very exciting. When you’re reading the script, you’re thinking to yourself, ‘Oh my god. They’re really going there.’ So that was my first response,” he said. “Then it was like, ‘Wow. This is an enormous, spectacular sequence. How are we actually going to pull it off?’ “

The answer, he said, was a combination of practical and special effects, with scenes like Tormund and Beric on top of the Wall shot at the Belfast studios but things like the panoramic views of the Wall and — obviously — Viserion’s blue flame created by the visual effects team.

“The Dragon and The Wolf” also gave rise to a new fan theory: that Tyrion, who watched Jon enter Dany’s cabin with an expression akin to jealousy, is in love with Dany. However, in a separate interview with the Daily Beast, Podeswa threw some cold water on the theory.

“Well I think there’s jealousy, but it’s maybe not romantic jealousy, in the way that it is for Jorah, for example,” he said. “I think that for Tyrion, it’s more complicated. I think he has a very special relationship with Dany and he really believes in her as a true leader and has invested a lot in her. I think for him, with Jon and Dany getting together, this represents a possible undermining of his position with her and also a monkey wrench thrown into what the master plan really is meant to be around this entire alliance.”

What is going through Tyrion's head now that his queen and Jon Snow have gotten together?

What is going through Tyrion’s head now that his queen and Jon Snow have gotten together?

Podeswa said he sees Tyrion as “a bit of a strategist” who now is worried about the unknown factors that Jon and Dany’s relationship will present. “He can’t see where this is gonna go and that’s very difficult for someone who is always thinking three steps ahead.”

The veteran Thrones director also said that filming the conversation between Tyrion and Cersei was “one of his favorite ever” to shoot.

“It’s the sort of scene that’s a long time coming because their characters haven’t been together for a long time. There is this tension in the scene that Cersei really could kill him at any moment,” he said. “He knows it and I think there’s this tension for the audience too that it could completely go off the rails at any time.”

In addition to the Tyrion-is-in-love-with-Dany theory, the internet also has been abuzz with different takes on what was said off-screen between Tyrion and Cersei after he discovers she’s pregnant (although that’s a whole different conspiracy theory in of itself, if you believe some viewers). Podeswa said there “definitely was more conversation after that,” but the more important takeaway from the scene is that it brings her back to the Dragonpit to agree to the alliance (at least at first).

“The essence of it is where it gets to at the end of that scene. I think, for me, that’s one of the great moments for both those actors,” he said. “I literally had to take a breath. The first time they played [the pregnancy reveal], I was like, (gasp). It was a very powerful moment.”

The full Hollywood Reporter interview is available here, while the Daily Beast interview can be read here.

172 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. I’d like to see Jon be her Consort, and let her be Queen in her own right, but I don’t think we’ll see many of the major players make it to the very end. That’s why we love GoT…unpredictable, romantic and heartbreaking.

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    2. Good perspective. Sometimes, the way a director chooses to shoot a scene raises more questions than the original script might let on.

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    3. Dany and Jon getting together actually changes virtually everything. It’ll shake up many relationships and change the political sphere of Westeros as we know it. That’s why I’m invested in that portion of the plot because I know it’s ripe with juicy material.

      As for Tyrion’s face, I interpreted it as him being foreboding. But not in a negative way. He understands that this coming of fate and raw passion will only make all of their lives more challenging. Dinklage’s behind the scenes interview of the episode sheds great light on the matter.

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    4. I am very intrigued by the way Podeswa speaks of the Jon/Daenerys scene:
      “It’s an epic revelation about the past, and an epic revelation that’s suggestive of the future and what’s going to happen.”

      The choice to have an intercut montage of Jon/Daenerys and Rhaegar/Lyanna, along with this comment by Podeswa, makes me believe their stories will continue to mirror each other. So that might mean: Daenerys will get pregnant but she’ll die giving birth; and Jon is to die in battle. In a way, I think even the score in the scene points to this sort of resolution – it’s not a “love theme” but rather a “tragic love theme”.

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    5. I’ve really appreciated hearing Podeswa’s perspective on Tyrion watching Jon enter Dany’s cabin prior to their love scene. In addition the above remarks from his interview with THR, there’s also this, from a New York Times interview. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/29/arts/television/game-of-thrones-season-7-finale-director-jon-snow.html

      From my point of view, Tyrion always seemed three steps ahead. As long as there is a professional alliance between Dany and Jon, that’s something that everybody wants. We can imagine that that’s a helpful alliance. But when things get personal, then people make decisions based on their emotions, and that can complicate matters going forward, so I think he sees the potential here for things to get very messy. Usually, historically, nothing good comes out of relationships becoming more complicated! [Laughs] It’s also a question of what’s going to be his role within this new alliance, right? So there’s a kind of caution here.

      I find that reasoning far more compelling and true to Tyrion as we know him than the theories that are going around about Tyrion being in love with Dany to the point of potentially trying to sabotage the new relationship between the KITN and the Dragon Queen out of jealousy (or the theories that he’s already betrayed them and gone back over to the Lannisters). While I do think Tyrion loves Dany (she has that effect), I think it’s more of a selfless love and concern about how Dany falling in love with Jon could complicate their goals of breaking the wheel and building a better world. Dany’s love for Jon already led her to fly north of the Wall to rescue him, and it cost her a dragon. Jon’s love for Dany led him to openly proclaim his allegiance to her in front of Cersei, which nearly cost them Cersei’s support (she wasn’t going to give it anyway, but Tyrion doesn’t know that yet).

      So Tyrion has reason to be concerned, separate from whatever crush he might be harboring on Dany. I don’t see this as a re-purposing of the Jon-Arya-Tyrion love triangle from Martin’s original outline with Dany in place of Arya, as some have theorized.

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    6. LadyLyanna,

      In fact, the medieval concept of ruling had no consept for a king consort – there was a concept of a ruling couple: kings were supposed to handle military things, queens were supposed to handle charity and social care. So, it rarely mattered which of the royal spouses were regnant. The consept of a sole monarch pushing his/hers consort into a shadow evolved in the Eearly Modern Times starting form the 16th century and that was caused by the development of an early national state the monarch was supposed to represent. As the consorts were foreigners mostly, it caused conflicts of interests and therefore royal spouses were gradually pushed away from power.

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    7. Separate from all that, I have to say that Jeremy Podeswa did a wonderful job directing the finale. Some of the scenes in “The Dragon in the Wolf” – particularly Jon and Dany’s love scene and the sequence of snow starting to fall on King’s Landing – are among the most beautiful that Game of Thrones has ever produced. He also did a great job blocking and executing all of the interactions in the Dragonpit, which, as the “Worlds Collide” featurette revealed, was an extraordinarily complicated sequence to shoot.

      I loved his direction of the premiere as well, particularly Dany’s breathtaking arrival on Dragonstone after a lifetime away. Add that to his resume of directing Tyrion and Jorah sailing through the ruins of Old Valyria, Sansa’s haunting, dark-fairy-tale-turned-nightmare wedding in the Winterfell godswood, and Jon’s resurrection, just to name a few. When it comes to crafting scenes that derive their beauty from silence, stillness, and slowly-building anticipation, few directors working on this show have done it better.

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    8. Tyrion is worried because and apperantly honorable man is doing a dishonorable thing by sleeping with a woman he has no interest in except to secure his own interests. This has Tyrion worried and puzzled because in the end it is he who is responsible for getting Jon in Dannys head. Truth is Jon is playing the game of thrones and he is playing to win. Unfortunately for Jon there was something in his plan he did not expect (he is a Targ) this will change the board and the game.

      Season 8 will see the clash of Danny and Sansa for Jon, Danys last betrayal will be for love.

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    9. It didn’t come across to me as Tyrion being romantically jealous when he gave that look towards Dany’s cabin. I saw it as an “I have a bad feeling about this” or perhaps an “oh shit, how are we going to deal with this situation now?” kind of look.

      As far as Littlefinger goes I’m personally going to miss Aidan’s fantastic portrayal of the character. Loved to hate Littlefinger. Guess there are no more ice cream bars for him!

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    10. “They don’t even fully understand what it’s all about…”

      – Podeswa

      If the characters don’t know, then how am I suppose to know? Also, why should I care? I guess that is the point- not to be invested in this couple???

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    11. Giocrypt,

      Aegon Targaryen is the only one who is not playing nor never has played the game of thrones and he died for it …

      and the only way Aegon Targaryen has survived is because of plot armor.

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    12. Giocrypt,

      Im gonna go ahead and assume you’re a Sansa fan/jonsa shipper. This crazy theory comes from them anyway.
      Jon has no reason to betray Dany. I know it’s hard for some people to grasp that, but he bent the knee AFTER Dany promised to fight for the north. She didn’t demand anything, she didn’t talk about oaths. It was after she said they’d defeat the night king together that Jon saw her for what she really is and pledged himself to her. He doesn’t have to sleep with her either, they are sailing to wintetfell, her armies and dragons are heading north already. He also took all the dragonglass they needed it. There’s nothing else to gain from Daenerys at this point because she’s put everything she has on this cause. He slept with her because he’s in love with her and she’s in love with him. There’s no betrayal on the way, not from Jon and not from the starks, who’ve decided to have each others back at last. Enough with this nonsense already.

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    13. It’s hard for me to believe that someone like Jon who puts so much stock on honor, loyalty and honesty would be using Dany romantically for his own political ends. It’s such a drastic departure from his character. Even when he was forced to go undercover with the Wildlings he still ran into moral conflicts due to his innately honorable nature.

      As far as I am concerned, the eyes are the window to the soul and Jon has been portrayed as being as madly in love with Dany as she is with him. The longing stares exchanged between them has been off the charts for the past few eps. That’s even excluding the meta directorial stuff like having Bran say unequivocally that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and she loved him, exactly when we see Jon and Dany’s faces respectively in the door scene. It couldn’t be more obvious.

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    14. Jared,

      Actually, it should be visa versa. The show has established that marriage is a political alliance. Therefore, marriage between Dany and Jon should have been considered by her Hand even before Jon set a foot on Dragonstone. It’s known that holding the North by force is impossible, so can it be a better way to bring it back under control of the Iron Throne than offering the newly proclaimed KITN marrying the Queen in the South? And it’s still valid: the Northern lords may be not fond of knee bending, but if Jon rides in with Dany as his bride, he is still on top of the things, right? Therefore by all the rules Tyrion should be very happy with the recent developments: Jon even shares his values which makes him a powerful ally in controlling Dany’s fire & blood impulses. But instead of jumping with joy, Tyrion brings up the plan of the wight hunt which may easily get Jon killed, and when Jon really gets into trouble he tries to persuade Dany to to nothing (remember, at that moment no-one assumes that the WW are capable of killing a dragon). Later at the Dragonpit Jon does the thing Tyrion wanted, and Tyrion blames him for all and everything. And then that strange lurking on the boat…

      IMO, Tyrion is indeed jelous and definitely not in a romantic way. He is simply afraid to lose his grip on Dany. There was that moment when she yelled at him and then looked to Jon for an advise. And althouh Jon advised her the very same thing that Tyrion was advising since Ep 1, I can imagine that Tyrion wasn’t quite happy that Jon was getting Dany’s ear. And then he proposed the wight hunt… If it turns out, that Tyrion was trying to take out Jon, this sily and higly contrived plot may be salvaged I guess. But one way or another, it really looks like Tyrion is really going against Jon, so he could play the role of a surogate king with Dany as his puppet with a right family mane, and army, and dragons.

      If it’s not the case, Tyrion’s concern is contrived and out of place.

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    15. I think they’re going to marry and it will solve all potential problems. In the book version of the House of the Undying she is called “bride of fire” and this is right after the blue flower from the wall vision which almost certainly applies to Jon. So the two are one after other and I doubt it’s an accident.

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    16. Succubint,

      Jon marrying orconsidering marriage to Dany to secure the interests of the North could have been the plot of this season and I anticipated it very much. The entire setup was calling called for an unwanted but necessary political engagement which could and should have developed into a sincere love match eentually mirroring Ned and Cat. But for some reason that was not the case: maybe the showrunners decided that it would have been to clishe.

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    17. Rob:

      – Podeswa

      If the characters don’t know, then how am I suppose to know? Also, why should I care? I guess that is the point- not to be invested in this couple???

      So no characters are ever allowed to be confused in your world? They must know what they’re doing and precisely why at every conceivable turn? Sounds unrealistic to me. Characters are allowed to be out of their depth, confused, impulsive, and at times, overcome with passion. That is reflection of reality. These are human beings with emotions… and hormones.

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    18. I don’t see where they could squeeze in a love triangle with only six episodes left and two wars to wrap up. I do, however, get a sense of foreboding from Tyrion’s continuing doubt about Dany’s impulses, Dany’s burgeoning doubt about Tyrion’s loyalties, and not seeing the end of that conversation with Cersei. We don’t have much time for any redemption if they’re setting up a betrayal arc, so I really hope they don’t go there.

      Ah, I see the Jonsa-Certified theory that Jon is whoring himself out to Dany so that he can eventually stab her in the back has forayed here from Tumblr. I was beginning to wonder if there’d be any entertainment during the off season.

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    19. I’m not sure if this belongs here or not, but I just finished watching the episode again and I absolutely loved the music playing over the end credits. Normally, I don’t notice the music much; the only themes I recognize are the opening credits and Dany’s.

      Anyway, I think I may have figured out where Ramin Djawadi’s inspiration came from.

      Have a look/listen if you care. It’s the opening titles music to the 1987 movie the Untouchables. You’ll really hear it at around the 1:20 mark.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9NH-NBF-Bc

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    20. I was really hoping for everyone to come together to fight the WWs because I think the drama would be better that way.

      EXAMPLE: The loot train fight was SO much better than the WW fight this year because I dig characters on both sides of that loot train fight. Who cares about zombies? There’s no motive.

      I really wish all the drama for S8 will be based around the interactions between the characters on how to stop the WWs.

      I also hope Arya goes down to KL with LF’s face. That would be amazing.

      I want the series to end with Arya sailing West, Dany and her baby ruling, RIP Jon and Sam writing the SoIAF at Horn Hill married to Gilly and Sansa ruling WF as the Warden in the North.

      I’d like to see The Hound go with Arya and Davos as Dany’s Hand.

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    21. “I think that for Tyrion, it’s more complicated. I think he has a very special relationship with Dany and he really believes in her as a true leader and has invested a lot in her. I think for him, with Jon and Dany getting together, this represents a possible undermining of his position with her

      This is how I interpreted the scene. The way the character dynamics played throughout the episode, Jon has essentially replaced both Jorah and Tyrion in Dany’s life. What does this mean for the future? When Lyanna and Rhaegar gave in to their passions, it certainly had unintended consequences….

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    22. With respect to Tyrion, something is going on there, and Podeswa is faking us out.

      According to GRRM, there is at least one big “twist” left. Dany or Jon dying wouldn’t cut it as a twist, as one or both of them dying is highly probable and would contribute to the “bittersweet” ending he has promised.

      What would count? If Tyrion *did* cut some deal with Cersei. He

      1: Believes Dany cannot have a baby

      2: Was told Cersei is about to have one

      3: Just expressed deep love for his family and Tommen and Marcela in particular

      4: Openly discussed succession with Dany

      5: Somehow changed Cersei’s mind and saved his neck, in a way that had to be hid from the audience

      So, what would fit this bill and be a “twist”? Tyrion hopes to install Cersei’s child as Dany’s heir. Perhaps Dany could “break the wheel” by accepting and fostering the child, uniting the most bitterly divided houses. Thus, he promised Cersei that he would endeavor to put her child on the throne, but in a way that isn’t necessarily a betrayal to Dany.

      Of course, Cersei then double-crossed everybody (predictable) and Jonaerys got it on, potentially complicating any such plan. I don’t think sexual jealously explains Tyrion’s behavior, as he is old enough to be beyond that, nor do I really by the Podeswa “it complicates thing” argument either. In some ways, it simplifies them, or would if it weren’t for the incest issue, which Tyrion has no clue about.

      I am not sure how this would play out, because it seems really compelling to me story-wise that Jaime is finally forced to kill his Mad Queen twin and thus his own child for the same reasons he killed the Mad King twenty year’s prior. It seems everything in both the books and the show have built towards this conclusion, and it would be a satisfying end to Cersei’s story, but I am not sure how Tyrion fits into that.

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    23. So when does Bran need the weirwood tree? He was there when he saw the vision of Sansa/Ramsay, Arya/Crossroads, NK taking down the Wall, but he was able to see the Rhaegar flashback sitting by the fireplace with Sam?

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    24. Tyrion is a strategist? Could have fooled me. He was wrong about going back to Dorne to drop Ellaria off and then go to KL so they lost Greyjoys/Dorne. He was wrong about CR and Highgarden was sacked. He was wrong about Wight hunt and they lost Viserion. And he was wrong about Cersei and the southern arms are not coming North.

      That’s 0-4 in my book.

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    25. Well, in the Season 6 finale Jaime gave Cersei a death stare across the throne room as she was crowned.

      Then come Season 7 he was totally cool with her and fully on board the Queen Cersei bandwagon.

      So I fully expect Tyrion to exhibit no signs of jealousy, romantic or otherwise, come episode 8×01.

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    26. [3XM]:
      I am very intrigued by the way Podeswa speaks of the Jon/Daenerys scene:
      “It’s an epic revelation about the past, and an epic revelation that’s suggestive of the future and what’s going to happen.”

      The choice to have an intercut montage of Jon/Daenerys and Rhaegar/Lyanna, along with this comment by Podeswa, makes me believe their stories will continue to mirror each other. So that might mean: Daenerys will get pregnant but she’ll die giving birth; and Jon is to die in battle. In a way, I think even the score in the scene points to this sort of resolution – it’s not a “love theme” but rather a “tragic love theme”.

      And Tyrion will sit on the throne as the protector of the realm until the child is old enough to rule? Sounds rather bittersweet to me.

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    27. Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,

      Nobody in Westeros will be happy with Tyrion on the throne, except Bronn and Pod. Despite his good qualities, for the most part Tyrion has failed at getting people to like him. Varys, Dany, Bronn and Pod are the exceptions. He would not have the support of the nobles or the common people. So, I don’t think that’s a realistic ending.

      Tyrion is a fan favorite, though. Maybe the bittersweet ending is Tyrion dying?

      There’s nothing bittersweet about beating the NK and the AoD, if both Jon and Dany die. This is a real problem for D&D. We don’t have an emotional attachment to those CGI figures, unlike the dragons.

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    28. I think I need to start pretending the real Tyrion didn’t make it out of King’s Landing after killing his father. Whoever this Tyrion is from season 5-7 is just an imposter because he isn’t close to anything like the Tyrion from seasons 1-4.

      Also, I would really dislike an ending that was Rhaegar/Lyanna 2.0 with Jon and Dany dying and leaving their child behind to Ned 2.0 to look after. That seems like an utterly pointless conclusion to just reboot the whole story from scratch again with a new generation.

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    29. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Well, in the Season 6 finale Jaime gave Cersei a death stare across the throne room as she was crowned.

      Then come Season 7 he was totally cool with her and fully on board the Queen Cersei bandwagon.

      I see no inconsistency there. I interpreted his look in the season 6 finale as being rightly uneasy about Cersei becoming queen. But he didn’t walk out and he didn’t turn his back on her. He’d made his choice and season 7 was him making the best of it. Until the end of episode 7 of course.

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    30. Rightful Queen:
      There’s nothing bittersweet about beating the NK and the AoD, if both Jon and Dany die.

      What GRRM said: The ending will be as much bittersweet as it will be happy, with the protagonists needing to deal with the fallout of the wars that have torn the realm apart and the ways in which their individual quests have forever changed them.

      What D&D said: The ending of this series will absolutely be satisfying for the viewers.

      What the Fandom heard: The most beloved characters of the series will all either die or wish they had.

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    31. Flayed Potatoes:
      elybe,
      Some people really want Jon to be trash lmao.

      The Jonsa tumblr tag always delivers the lols. *grabs popcorn*

      Oh Gawd don’t tell me they all turned against Dany the moment the shiptease started this season? *sigh*

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    32. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: Then come Season 7 he was totally cool with her and fully on board the Queen Cersei bandwagon.

      Did you somehow miss their very first conversation where he was obviously not cool with her or what she did whatsoever?

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    33. One question on my mind that I haven’t seen answered or discussed anywhere is whether the final scene of the ‘Wall coming down’ was Brans vision of something yet to happen or whether it was happening at that moment.

      By the fireplace, with Sam, he was looking at events of the past. But the last time we see Bran, he is in the snow by the Tree, possibly looking at something that was about to happen???

      So far, he hasn’t showed an ability of seeing into the future, but he is only just discovering his powers. It just feels early for me for the NK and his army to be entering through the wall now, with no one mobilized, no dragon glass weapons forged, catching our heroes with their pants down (literally).

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    34. Rightful Queen,

      Yes, Tyrion is a fan favorite. So are Jon and Dany, so I fail to see your point.

      elybe,

      Obviously those who survive the series will have to clean up the mess, yes, but it’s a simple fact that won’t be everyone. Not all of the cast is going to make it through this final season, and everyone is someone’s favorite. There’s a war on the way and it has to be a bloodbath. After Seasons 6 and 7, though, I think many people have actually gotten a little too complacent about character deaths in this show–since most of the recent deaths have been antagonists and supporting characters–and because of that, they are now thinking that protagonists and fan favorites are safer than they really are.

      The bittersweet ending will likely equally as happy as it is sad, this is true, but remember, we are talking by GoT standards here. There seems to be a collective denial among lots of fans hoping for an ending that is more “sweet” than bitter with lots of fan favorites somehow living, and I think this is because fans are fans, and they have a strong desire to deny the possibility that their favorites could indeed still die before the show is over. Assuming a character’s survival is guaranteed right now, however, can really only set you up for disappointment if that turns out to not be the case.

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    35. Dov:
      One question on my mind that I haven’t seen answered or discussed anywhere is whether the final scene of the ‘Wall coming down’ was Brans vision of something yet to happen or whether it was happening at that moment.

      By the fireplace, with Sam, he was looking at events of the past.But the last time we see Bran, he is in the snow by the Tree, possibly looking at something that was about to happen???

      So far, he hasn’t showed an ability of seeing into the future, but he is only just discovering his powers. It just feels early for me for the NK and his army to be entering through the wall now, with no one mobilized, no dragon glass weapons forged, catching our heroes with their pants down (literally).

      Too early? There’s only episodes left. What I don’t understand is why did Bran have to be at the Godswood to see the NK taking down the Wall but didn’t have to be there to see the Rhaegar/Lyanna flashback?

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    36. “For us, it was very important that there be a question about what could possibly happen after this moment. We know now the full history that led to this moment, but now what’s going to happen?”

      What happens after this moment? I vote for twins – a boy and a girl. Unexpected for Mommy Daenerys, who thought she couldn’t have kids! 😉
      I don’t think for a moment that Tyrion is in love with Daenerys. I personally feel that his look at the end was worry for himself, because this new closeness between Jon and her would make his own influence over her, even less than it already was. He has been a failure as an advisor to her in Westeros, and she was aleady listening to Jon more than to him by the middle of the season.

      Giocrypt,
      Ahh…. the bitterness of the JONSA shippers! 😀

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    37. Inga: But one way or another, it really looks like Tyrion is really going against Jon, so he could play the role of a surogate king with Dany as his puppet with a right family mane, and army, and dragons.

      Yes, this could very well have been Tyrion’s plan.

      Chad Brick: So, what would fit this bill and be a “twist”? Tyrion hopes to install Cersei’s child as Dany’s heir. Perhaps Dany could “break the wheel” by accepting and fostering the child, uniting the most bitterly divided houses. Thus, he promised Cersei that he would endeavor to put her child on the throne, but in a way that isn’t necessarily a betrayal to Dany.

      This possibility also occurred to me. The scene cut away from Tyrion and Cersei after he confessed how sorry he was for the deaths of Myrcella and Tommen, and the revelation of Cersei’s pregnancy. Also, he told her that he had been trying to protect his family, the Lannisters, because if it hadn’t been for him, Daenerys would already be well settled in KL.
      In fact, I’ve been thinking that when all is said and done, MANY more people would have died because Daenerys did not immediately take KL upon her arrival in Westeros, listened to Tyrion’s plans, and divided her forces. If she had immediately eliminated Cersei, taken KL, she would have been in a far stronger position to deal with the threat of the WWs up North. The destruction that Westeros is bound to suffer in Season 8, could have been prevented to a large extent, if Tyrion wasn’t Hand to Daenerys.

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    38. Giocrypt: Tyrion is worried because and apperantly honorable man is doing a dishonorable thing by sleeping with a woman he has no interest in except to secure his own interests.

      You really think Jon is a dishonorable man? Every nuance of the entire seven seasons is based on and pointed toward Jon being one of the most honorable, honest men on the whole planet. He was honest to the point of almost totally spoiling the whole venture with the wight. Everybody is allowed to express their own opinion, but I’m sorry, I can’t go along with Jon’s intentions toward Dany being dishonorable. He doesn’t need her in order for him to be in charge, he’s a King in his own right. Hell, even the show-runners have gone on and one about Jon’s honesty. If anyone’s intentions are very shady, I’m really beginning to think it Tyrion’s.

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    39. Sunfyre,

      Are the characters confused or are the show writers confused? I can’t believe that GRRM is going to have Jon and Dany just “fall into bed” like Kit said. These are the two main characters and they have no reason to fall in love. This is suppose to be the epic romance of the series, Ice and Fire, and there is no depth. It’s a problem. Yes, two crazy kids can just fall into bed for no reason, but I have no reason to care about them at all. If they fell into bed, they can just as easily fall out of it- no big deal. Who cares? Aren’t I suppose to care. The point here is maybe the characters don’t need a reason for their love, but the audience does if the show wants us to care about the couple. By the way, this is Jon. The same man who wouldn’t impulsively have sex with Mel. Now he is just this happy go lucky impulsive kid? It doesn’t seem genuine, but not much does on this show lately.

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    40. Succubint,

      Yes, those looks. They couldn’t have been more smoldering! I was blushing just watching! They sold me, that’s for sure. He couldn’t have looked any more in love ❤️

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    41. Azor Asshai,

      There seems to be a collective denial among lots of fans hoping for an ending that is more “sweet” than bitter with lots of fan favorites somehow living

      I’ve actually noticed the opposite. Most theories I’ve come across seem to equate “bittersweet” with a Shakespearean tragedy, and GRRM already cited LotR as an example of what he considers a bittersweet ending to be. I’m mainly going by his standards, since at the end of the day, this is still an adaptation of his story and D&D sat down with him to go over the endgame of all of the key protagonists. I know better than to ever take a character’s survival as a given, but I also know better than to mistake GRRM for someone who subverts tropes for the sake of it at the expense of completing a character arc. I may not be expecting characters like Theon or Jaime to make it out of this series alive, and I’m split 50/50 on Dany and Jon, but nothing can happen to them until their arcs are fully realized. It was the same reason it was obvious that Jon wasn’t staying dead in Season 5 while the “if you think this has a happy ending…” crowd kept insisting that it would be in keeping with GoT’s style. Most of the theories I read seem to be constructed around the inability to conceive of any archetypal heroes making it out alive rather than examining the themes inherent in the individual character arcs and how to resolve them in a meaningful way.

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    42. Rob:

      Who cares? Aren’t I suppose to care.

      I care. I care about both of them and I care about what happens in their relationship. I’d wager there are millions of other viewers who feel the same. Don’t assume because you feel a certain way about a piece of art that everyone shares your perspective. Beyond that don’t know what to tell ya man. Too bad the show isn’t working for you anymore. But there’s plenty of quality entertainment out there y’know?

        Quote  Reply

    43. Azor Asshai:

      elybe,

      The bittersweet ending will likely equally as happy as it is sad, this is true, but remember, we are talking by GoT standards here. There seems to be a collective denial among lots of fans hoping for an ending that is more “sweet” than bitter with lots of fan favorites somehow living, and I think this is because fans are fans, and they have a strong desire to deny the possibility that their favorites could indeed still die before the show is over. Assuming a character’s survival is guaranteed right now, however, can really only set you up for disappointment if that turns out to not be the case.

      And this is the reason why I’ve prepared myself for 4-5 years now for the most likely death of Jon. He’s living on borrowed time. He’s been saved from death many times now (on the show) that it’s almost inevitable for him to finally die in the end while saving the realm. Well, I hope that when/if that happens, my heart will indeed be ready.

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    44. Rob,

      Amusingly, his stated justification for rejecting Mel’s advances was that he was still in love with Ygritte, well after her death. I quite enjoyed that line, too, it felt very romantic and true to form for him. But…well…clearly something must have changed and he’s just sort of…over her now. Alas for poor Ygritte. 🙁

      I’ve chosen to chalk up the suddenness of Dany and Jon’s relationship to the fact that they are both Targaryens and they share that historical incestuous Targaryen attraction, despite not knowing they’re related. The irony. But hey, even the infamous Oedipus of Greek myth didn’t know he had married his own mother at first…so it makes a certain degree of sense.

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    45. Sunfyre: I care. I care about both of them and I care about what happens in their relationship. I’d wager there are millions of other viewers who feel the same. Don’t assume because you feel a certain way about a piece of art that everyone shares your perspective. Beyond that don’t know what to tell ya man. Too bad the show isn’t working for you anymore. But there’s plenty of quality entertainment out there y’know?

      Hear! Hear! Millions of us STILL care!

      Why did Jon and Dany have to fall in love? The same reason we all do. This is what being human is about. Apparently, each of this character’s story is not just about conquering kingdoms and saving others. It’s about finding love, too. If that’s something people can’t care about, oh well…

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    46. Rob:
      Sunfyre,

      Are the characters confused or are the show writers confused?I can’t believe that GRRM is going to have Jon and Dany just “fall into bed” like Kit said.These are the two main characters and they have no reason to fall in love. This is suppose to be the epic romance of the series, Ice and Fire, and there is no depth. It’s a problem. Yes, two crazy kids can just fall into bed for no reason, but I have no reason to care about them at all. If they fell into bed, they can just as easily fall out of it- no big deal. Who cares? Aren’t I suppose to care. The point here is maybe the characters don’t need a reason for their love, but the audience does if the show wants us to care about the couple.By the way, this is Jon. The same man who wouldn’t impulsively have sex with Mel. Now he is just this happy go lucky impulsive kid? It doesn’t seem genuine, but not much does on this show lately.

      I’m sorry that you’ve never been in love. ‘Reason’ doesn’t always factor in.

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    47. Pigeon,

      I think on some level it’s meant to be taken as a “fated” relationship of sorts, too. That it was inevitable, unavoidable, and always meant to happen, whenever they had the chance to meet. Whether that works for every viewer, obviously your mileage will vary, but I do believe that was the intention.

      Melisandre: “I have done my part. I have brought Ice and Fire together.”

      “A Song of Ice and Fire” carries layers on layers of meanings in the story, and this is clearly one of them.

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    48. elybe:
      Azor Asshai,

      I’ve actually noticed the opposite. Most theories I’ve come across seem to equate “bittersweet” with a Shakespearean tragedy, and GRRM already cited LotR as an example of what he considers a bittersweet ending to be. I’m mainly going by his standards, since at the end of the day, this is still an adaptation of his story and D&D sat down with him to go over the endgame of all of the key protagonists. I know better than to ever take a character’s survival as a given, but I also know better than to mistake GRRM for someone who subverts tropes for the sake of it at the expense of completing a character arc. I may not be expecting characters like Theon or Jaime to make it out of this series alive, and I’m split 50/50 on Dany and Jon, but nothing can happen to them until their arcs are fully realized. It was the same reason it was obvious that Jon wasn’t staying dead in Season 5 while the “if you think this has a happy ending…” crowd kept insisting that it would be in keeping with GoT’s style. Most of the theories I read seem to be constructed around the inability to conceive of any archetypal heroes making it out alive rather than examining the themes inherent in the individual character arcs and how to resolve them in a meaningful way.

      I hope you’re right. I thought GRRM wanted to deviate from the LOTR-type of ending though – with the rightful king being crowned in the end and marrying his love (my impression was that he found it too “sweet”). And this is why I think Jon (who they emphasized on the show as the “rightful heir to the throne”) won’t sit on the throne in the end.

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    49. [3XM],

      Maybe, but that would suck. How are most people’s favorite characters both dying in any way bitter “sweet”? I don’t care about any offspring. I care about the two people we’ve become invested in.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Azor Asshai,

      Mel also told Dany about TPTWP, “You have a role to play. And so does another.” They’re clearly telling us these two are fated to meet and do something together. There has been a debate here before about who’s the TPTWP – Jon or Dany. Now, I’m wondering if neither is, and instead, their “role” is to produce the TPTWP?

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    51. Azor Asshai,

      I agree. And it wasn’t just days they were together either, it’s been weeks. Take a bit of fate, add a dash of physical attraction, and a pound of danger, tragedy, and high stakes, and…well….👍

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    52. The Song that was Promised,

      This will leave those two men feeling disenfranchised and useless. Jorah’s only goal in life is to serve Dany and for Tyrion who was basically suicidal until Varys gave him something to believe in, has nowhere else to go. They will no doubt become frustrated when/if Dany no longer have the ear of Dany.

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    53. LadyLyanna:
      I’d like to see Jon be her Consort, and let her be Queen in her own right,but I don’t think we’ll see many of the major players make it to the very end. That’s why we love GoT…unpredictable, romantic and heartbreaking.

      And I really hope that’s not the case! After everything Jon has done and been through, it would be so underwhelming for him to end up as just a royal consort, that I am really dreading this ending. Besides, that’s not the sort of life that would suit him or make him happy.

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    54. Azor Asshai,

      Yes, I agree it is a “fated” relationship – but one that it is rooted in quite a few things that make it believable from a more rational point of view.

      1) They are both young and good looking, so it is quite reasonable there could be some physical attraction between them.

      2) They are both powerful people and that marks them as equals. For Dany, this might be the first time she finds herself in this situation, for she had less “power” than Drogo but she controlled the relationship with Daario. As for Jon, I think he sees her struggle on how to exercise her power, and that makes him feel they share a certain understanding of the challenges of leadership.

      3) They both earned each other’s respect. The first meeting was difficult but neither played any games. This kind of honesty – even when it results in open disagreement – is a shared trait and, thus, something both can respect about one another. When she relents and allows him to mine the dragonglass, it shows him she can compromise. Later, in the cave, when he still won’t bend the knee, she knows it comes from a sense of duty to the North – and, while she still demands his fealty, she can sympathize with his position.

      4) So, based on the previous points, we have a strong foundation for the development of deeper feelings between them. By the time he leaves Dragonstone, they are in love, even if they haven’t admitted it to themselves yet. These feelings then come to the fore in the face of tragedy: she allows herself to be “weak” in front of him when talking about Viserion [I don’t think being devasted for the loss of her dragon is a “weakness”; it’s just that Daenerys rarely shows this kind of emotion to someone else]; and he shows his affection by taking her hand and not letting go. They are both vulnerable with each other on that scene and that marks a new level of emotional intimacy.

      5) By the time they get together on the boat, they are both fully aware there’s a mutual and deep connection between them. In fact, others around them have seen it too – review the scene in the Dragonstone Map Room and you’ll see they are “transparent” in their dealings. Jorah, Tyrion, even Varys, seem to understand there’s something more happening there. So, if two people feel that deeply for each other, it’s only natural they would “fall into bed”, as KH put it. This turn of phrase might have rubbed some people the wrong way but I don’t think it is dismissive of their relationship. For all the respect and affection they have garnered for each other, let’s not forget the first point I made. They are young and good looking – and they sure are attracted to each other. This is the point where reason takes leaves and passion becomes the driving force. Deep in the back of their minds, they know this might bring unforeseen complications, and that’s why they are described as confused. This does not take anything from the intensity of the scene; in fact, it makes it that much more realistic, for it would be illogical for them to ignore all the complications that surround their relationship.

      All in all, I am quite pleased with the way the show managed to build up their relationship in such a short time. I just hope the showrunners can be just as nuanced in the continuation of this storyline for the final season.

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    55. ygritte,

      I am not happy about Jon and Daenerys both dying but I have the feeling this is where the story is going. In a way, I can accept Jon’s death – as someone already said above, he’s been living on borrowed time ever since he was brought back to life. [I will be devasted if/when he dies but I can see there’s a narrative sense to it.] But I don’t see the need for Daenerys dying as well, especially while giving birth. It seems an unecessary cliché.
      However, when analysing the choices made in the scene editing and the comments provided by the director, it seems the show is hinting very heavily at this type of ending. It might be misdirection but, should it happen as I’ve speculated it will, we would all be able to trace back that ending to the foreshadowing ingrained in this scene.

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    56. Jack Bauer 24,
      *Some* of us managed without it, you know.

      I think that the fairest ending of them all would be:
      – no Targ baby, because babies are an incentive to continue feudalism, and feudalism is uppercase Bad;
      – Jon dies, or becomes the new Lich King. That would give worth to his death back in Season 5, in the vein of “he’s been living on borrowed time ever since”/”he’s been brought back by R’hllor only for one purpose”;
      – Dany either rules as a figurehead constitutional monarch, bound by the decisions of some sort of a parliament (she would hate that), or rides off on Drogon into the sunset, leaving behind a tale of how she’s a once-and-future Queen (in reality, probably leaves for the ruins of Valyria, there to act as a Yoda-in-Dagobah figure for a sequel).

      In other words, the best ending for the majority of humanity – no people with special blood surviving to rule them.

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    57. Sam,

      I’m very glad Jon found love again. Admittedly it does feel weird that it’s the dragon girl at other end of the world we’ve been watching for so long, many of us either not liking her or finding her arc boring. However, this last episode in particular sold me on their feelings (thanks to the actors.) Also it helps that she is much more likable (imo) around Jon Snow.

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    58. Yaga,

      Lol, I’m loving the visual I get when I think of Dany as a “Yoda-in-Dagobah” character. 😂 I personally think that the foreshadowed Targ baby will live, but I also think that someone will enact the Great Council to vote on a new ruler, which Tyrion eluded to when he mentioned the Kingsmoot and Night’s Watch voting process. It’s also brought up a little more frequently in the books. And ever since that Beric and Jon discussion, I definitely feel that Jon is living on borrowed time. *buries face in hands and sobs*

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    59. [3XM],

      I see where you’re coming from, there are def hints of it. I just prefer not to entertain such an idea. Am not ready to accept it just yet 🙂 Broke my heart the first time!

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    60. My feelings on the plot are that Tyrion would never betray Dany, it doesnt seem to be part of his character to do that. He knows full well though that relationships are complicated and he is concerned.
      Master Aemon said : “love is the bane of honor, the death of duty”

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    61. [3XM]:
      I am very intrigued by the way Podeswa speaks of the Jon/Daenerys scene:
      “It’s an epic revelation about the past, and an epic revelation that’s suggestive of the future and what’s going to happen.”

      The choice to have an intercut montage of Jon/Daenerys and Rhaegar/Lyanna, along with this comment by Podeswa, makes me believe their stories will continue to mirror each other. So that might mean: Daenerys will get pregnant but she’ll die giving birth; and Jon is to die in battle. In a way, I think even the score in the scene points to this sort of resolution – it’s not a “love theme” but rather a “tragic love theme”.

      You could well be right, after all history repeats itself but I sincerely hope not. To have Jon die in battle and Dany in childbirth feels like predictable storytelling and is very far removed from a bittersweet and “satisfying” (according to George) ending. The suggestion of the future may simply be their relationship will cause conflict to arise….unsurprisingly.

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    62. Jack Bauer 24:
      Tyrion is a strategist? Could have fooled me. He was wrong about going back to Dorne to drop Ellaria off and then go to KL so they lost Greyjoys/Dorne. He was wrong about CR and Highgarden was sacked. He was wrong about Wight hunt and they lost Viserion. And he was wrong about Cersei and the southern arms are not coming North.

      That’s 0-4 in my book.

      not exactly 4-0.
      Remeber he advised Dany NOT to fly with the dragons to save Jon and his pals, so the biggest strategic blunder, Viserion’s death AND the NK acquiring an undead dragon, is not on Tyrion…

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    63. Phario Forel,

      If Tyrion hadn’t come up with this ridiculous plan, to convince Cersei of all people, a plan which completely failed, then nobody would have even gone beyond the Wall in the first place. It is on Tyrion.

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    64. ghost of winterfell:
      Phario Forel,

      If Tyrion hadn’t come up with this ridiculous plan, to convince Cersei of all people, a plan which completely failed, then nobody would have even gone beyond the Wall in the first place. It is on Tyrion.

      The plan did not completely fail…it did convince Jamie who now comes to be the fifth Valyrian blade in the final showdown with the WW, while also without Jamie we will probably see Cersei losing her balance and self-destructing. So the jury on Tyrion is still out 😉

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    65. Phario Forel,

      They traded a dragon, a fire priest and the Wall for Jaime! The only way this would not turn out to be the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals is if Jaime turns out to be Azor Ahai and kills the Night King once and for all 🙂 .

      I don’t know if Cersei cares enough about Jaime to lose her mind on his leaving her, let’s see. However, if in addition to Jaime abandoning her, Euron betrays her with the Golden Company as well, that could push her over the edge, as she would have no one left.

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    66. ygritte,

      Indeed, it’s really inforgivable that they deleted it. It was absolutely necessary to show Bran getting involved into his falimy business: that would have provided more motivation for him to tackle Jon’s parentage, because now it really looks like Bran’s only role is to tell Jon that he is Sand, instead of Snow (he needed Sam to discover that Jon is in fact Aegon Targaryan).

      In general, I think that the WF plot could have worked much better, had the Starks discovered all the truth about Littlefinger in Ep 4 and then decided to punish him by making him feel what it tastes to be manipulated into downfall. That would have mirrored Ramsay being fed to the dogs and fitted Sansa’s arch better, IMO.

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    67. Giocrypt:
      Tyrion is worried because and apperantly honorable man is doing a dishonorable thing by sleeping with a woman he has no interest in except to secure his own interests. This has Tyrion worried and puzzled because in the end it is he who is responsible for getting Jon in Dannys head. Truth is Jon is playing the game of thrones and he is playing to win. Unfortunately for Jon there was something in his plan he did not expect (he is a Targ) this will change the board and the game.

      Season 8 will see the clash of Danny and Sansa for Jon, Danys last betrayal will be for love.

      Oh Gods, my sides… haah my sides!

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    68. LastKiss,

      In fact, Tyrion is already betraying Dany in a way, he just doesn’t realize that. First of all, in his eyes, she is not a leader – she is a Mad Kig’s Daughter who needs control 24/7. He may say that he believes in her, but this belief is sorts of “the girl has got potential” and nothing more: he does’t accept her as a leader; he wants and feels obliged to lead himself. And there was all that flattering that sounded rather false… I can agree that Tyrion will not betray Dany consciously (though even that is not impossible) but seeing her as a naughty child definitely sets him on the path of taking desicions wihouth consulting her and that is a straight path to a treason.

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    69. Phario Forel,

      The Night King acquiring a dragon is on Tyrion and no-one else. The wight hunt was his idea and he brought it up simply because he didn’t want to get his family killed. Dany could have taken KL in a week and then she would have been free to march North, if not of his manipulations.

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    70. Jack Bauer 24,

      The Weirwood Tree may be more of an energy(?) boost for him, than anything else, in the show. His zen environment. We know he can see things happening in real time through warging. He saw the Army of the Dead marching in the first episode, as he and Meera reached the Wall, and he was nowhere near a Weirwood Tree at that time.

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    71. I wonder if there were more deleted scenes than usual this season? Jerome Flynn mentioned something, now Isaac … I get that they don’t want to pre-empt everything but if they cut scenes because they think the element of surprise is super-important then the surprises can feel cheap or illogical, imo.

      Re. Jon. A small thing, but I thought it was interesting that they had him saying (when Dany wasn’t around) “why would anyone want to live like that?” as soon as he saw King’s Landing. He’d HATE to live there, clearly.

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    72. [3XM],

      Yes, the reason they paralleled R+L and D+J is to get the viewers wondering whether the latter will have the same fate. This is why they had Tryion’s worried expression, for dramatic reason, to further increase that sense of foreboding.

      Which is exactly the reason why I’m certain that will not be the way the story goes. D+J will end on a different note, perhaps a far happier note.

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    73. Inga:
      LastKiss,

      In fact, Tyrion is already betraying Dany in a way, he just doesn’t realize that. First of all, in his eyes, she is not a leader – she is a Mad Kig’s Daughter who needs control 24/7. He may say that he believes in her, but this belief is sorts of “the girl has got potential” and nothing more: he does’t accept her as a leader; he wants and feels obliged to lead himself. And there was all that flattering that sounded rather false… I can agree that Tyrion will not betray Dany consciously (though even that is not impossible) but seeing her as a naughty child definitely sets him on the path of taking desicions wihouth consulting her and that is a straight path to a treason.

      i wouldnt put it quite as strongly as that, i think Tyrion really believes in Dany to be a good queen, and i dont think he wants to ‘use’ her in order to control things himself… but i agree that he thinks she needs guidance and that her sometimes quick temper needs moderating. i wouldnt put that anywhere near betrayal… but he is smart enough to know that no-one is perfect.

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    74. Inga,

      I think they needed you at the writer’s table for season 7 🙂 I like your idea for Winterfell better. Since I knew all the basic spoilers for a long time I can’t view it the same as those who didn’t know what was truly going on at Winterfell. I assumed everyone would enjoy the “shock” fake out of calling Arya to sentencing then switching on Littlefinger. But it did need to “make sense” to be effective, and it didn’t because they never showed Sansa and Bran even interacting let alone discussing the past.

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    75. Dark Sister,

      Thanks for those images. Very interesting. With Jaime presumably headed to WF, they will soon know that Cersei has not “pledged her forces” to their cause. Can’t wait for those reactions.

      I’m still working on the writing in Gilly’s book. I need to open it on a larger screen in Photoshop at work:
      “Due to unforeseen events and…from jotting down my records…an annulment to Prince Rhaegar…marriage to Elia Martell…to Lyanna Stark in Dorne…of the ceremony…”

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    76. A Dutch columnist shared an interesting theory. He suspects that Tyrion is concerned that Daenerys is capable of having a child (with Jon). The scene between Tyrion en Cersei ends with him guessing that she is pregnant. Next that we know Cersei returns to the Dragonpit and is, well in her own sceming way, nice and willing to help. What if Tyrion, already contemplating about the lack of Daenerys succesion, offered in change for help that Cersei’s child will succeed Daenerys? A pregnant Queen of Dragons will complicate Tyrion’s position.

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    77. The Northern values Jon embraces play really hard against this romance, once he learns he is commiting incest.

      We’ve been told from the beginning, and this season more than any other, about Jon’s integrity even despite obvious benefits.

      Incest is a taboo (crime?) In the north.

      So now we’re heading ti the hero’s impossible love cliché. Which it’s not bad per se, but it’s a land full of dangers.

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    78. Azor Asshai,

      The original outline from George back in 1993 specifically said there where a group of characters who would survive the entire series and that the story was about how these characters are changed and how the world is changed by them.

      Given that, it feels likely that the core group of main characters will survive.

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    79. Jared,

      Good call, I think. I’d add this – Tyrion (correctly) broke off the relationship between Dariio and Dany, because he wanted her, fundamentally, to be available for a marriage alliance – exactly the kind of alliance suggested by Littlefinger, the kind of alliance that solidified the Aaryn-Stark-Baratheon-Tully alliance at the start of Robert’s Rebellion – the alliance that headed off a possible Baratheon-Lannister war immediately after Aerys death. People have remarked how it’s odd Tyrion never suggested such an alliance to Dany with Jon – but I think exactly otherwise – Tyrion’s not remotely stupid, we already know he’s thinking on those lines, and he may have calculated that they could gain Jon’s alliance WITHOUT wasting the marriage bed – leaving open the possiblity of, e.g. an alliance with either Euron or Jaime (in theory), or the Tarly boy before he was roasted, or a Dornish prince if one still existed.

      Tyrion has warned Dany that Jon’s fallen for her; and she has fallen right into it, clearly reciprocating, despite that. I suspect therefore that Tyrion is worried that Jon is NNOT someone who can be eased aside if required as Dariio was – Jon won’t accept it, and Dany won’t allow it – and that removes bartering chips from a man whose chief skill is barter.

      One has to wonder if Tyrion has also suggested a deal to Cersei, along the lines of that between Stephen of Blois and Matilda at the end of the Anarchy in 12C England – Dany will get the throne, but will recognise Cersei’s child as her heir (as Stephen recognised MAtilda’s son, the future Henry II).

      Clearly a relationship with another King complicates that, especially if Dany (who seems actually conflicted about Jon kneeling), confronted with the Aegon knowledge, suggests instead a marriage union of the crowns, William III and MaryII style (who were also related by the way ;-)) with neither side kneeling, and the crowns of the North and South combined (1707 anyone?). Why would that matter if everyone believes Dany can’t have kids? Because if Jon is co-regent, Jon DOES have heirs, specifically his sister Sansa. Suddenly Sansa and her possible future children and Cersei’s child are rival claimants to the throne- Cersei’s child claims through agreement with Dany, but Sansa claims through familial tie with Jon.

      Even if he hasn’t wargamed all this, Tyrions must know that this is NOT the time for Jon and Dany to be giving in to emotions and urges. Frankly BOTH are two valuable to him as marriage alliances – even Jon as Warden (and frankly Dany’s closest ally now) would be a huge marriage catch in Tyrions world – to throw away on a boat fling.

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    80. Martin Vickers: leaving open the possiblity of, e.g. an alliance with either Euron or Jaime (in theory), or the Tarly boy before he was roasted, or a Dornish prince if one still existed.

      I think this is a good point. And there is also Robyn Arryn to consider of course. At this point it seems as if Jaime is actually a pretty useless marriage alliance now, as Cersei controls the Lannister forces.

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    81. Jorah, The Mormon:
      The Northernvalues Jon embraces play really hard against this romance, once he learns he is commiting incest.

      We’ve been told from the beginning, and this season more than any other, about Jon’s integrity even despite obvious benefits.

      Incest is a taboo (crime?) In the north.

      So now we’re heading ti the hero’s impossible love cliché. Which it’s not bad per se, but it’s a land full of dangers.

      how is incest a crime in the north if Rickard stark, Eddard/ned’s father, married his cousin, Lyarra stark??

      people need to get over the fact that these things happened a lot all over westeros and were quite normal.

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    82. Inga: He is simply afraid to lose his grip on Dany. There was that moment when she yelled at him and then looked to Jon for an advise. And althouh Jon advised her the very same thing that Tyrion was advising since Ep 1, I can imagine that Tyrion wasn’t quite happy that Jon was getting Dany’s ear. And then he proposed the wight hunt… If it turns out, that Tyrion was trying to take out Jon, this sily and higly contrived plot may be salvaged I guess. But one way or another, it really looks like Tyrion is really going against Jon, so he could play the role of a surogate king with Dany as his puppet with a right family mane, and army, and dragons.

      Tyrion needs to sharpen his mind with some of Sam’s books. This was just an awful season for Tyrion. He came up with a stupid plan to capture a wight which ended up killing a dragon, destroying the wall, and made no difference to Cersei since she still is doublecrossing everyone and not giving her help to the fight. Every one of Tyrion’s plans failed this season. I thought he was great in planning the blackwater battle and got a raw deal from his Dad after the battle, but this season, I can’t feel sorry for Tyrion at all. It seems like he should have proposed the marriage of Jon and Dany to form the alliance. That’s the way his mind thinks (at least it used to think that way). I thought Tyrion’s best moment was his scene with Jaime. I have hopes that the brothers will team up in Season 8 as Jaime rides north (in his black cape and black horse, and black armor, black gloves..wow..but I digress..)

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    83. LastKiss:
      Jorah, The Mormon,

      how is incest a crime in the north if Rickard stark, Eddard/ned’s father, married his cousin, Lyarra stark??

      people need to get over the fact that these things happened a lot all over westeros and were quite normal.

      This is what happens when viewers apply the modern-day rules to the show that is clearly set in a time period similar to the medieval times. I agree, people need to get over it and understand that Jon and Dany being relatives and a couple will not be taboo in Westeros.

      By the way, I thought Ned’s parents (Jon’s grandparents) were aunt/nephew, not first cousins.

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    84. Sam: This is what happens when viewers apply the modern-day rules to the show that is clearly set in a time period similar to the medieval times. I agree, people need to get over it and understand that Jon and Dany being relatives and a couple will not be taboo in Westeros.

      By the way, I thought Ned’s parents (Jon’s grandparents) were aunt/nephew, not first cousins.

      i think they were cousins once removed… but yes it seems that the definition of incest in westeros is brother / sister relations and that cousins are not counted as incest and there were regular marriages.
      genetically speaking, having a child with an aunt is slightly worse inbreeding than a first cousin, but that is modern knowledge and wouldnt have been known in those times.
      so yes, it is not unusual or taboo to intermarry family members in westeros, only brother / sister is regarded as wrong.

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    85. LastKiss: how is incest a crime in the north if Rickard stark, Eddard/ned’s father, married his cousin, Lyarra stark??

      people need to get over the fact that these things happened a lot all over westeros and were quite normal.

      Cousin marriage is not incest. It hasn’t been for millennia. It’s perfectly legal and commonly enough practised in large parts of the world even today.

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    86. Dyanna: Cousin marriage is not incest. It hasn’t been for millennia. It’s perfectly legal and commonly enough practised in large parts of the world even today.

      exactly! see my other responses.

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    87. Inga:

      The Night King acquiring a dragon is on Tyrion and no-one else. The wight hunt was his idea and he brought it up simply because he didn’t want to get his family killed. Dany could have taken KL in a week and then she would have been free to march North, if not of his manipulations.

      the Mad King’s daughter wouldn’t be loved too much by the people if she took the throne back by killing thousands. also, the dragon pit scene made clear that the acommodation of her pets would cause some trouble: a pile of rubbish does not keep three really big dragons from having livestock or even people for lunch.

      on a hate level from 1 to 10, people would rate her 11 or “C like Cersei”. and from that position, she will convince whom exactly to fight against a thread no one in the south believes to be real?

      also, a war for KL would have weakened the forces needed for the war in the north.

      presenting proof of the existence of the big threat to Cersei was the only option for any reasonable person. happens to be Tyrion who has the idea first, that’s all. the idea is neither treacherous (for saving his family from incoming dragonfire, a raven with a note saying “duck and cover” would have done) nor is it dumb. it just turned out a bit unlucky.

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    88. Azor Asshai: Azor Asshai
      August 30, 2017 at 12:46 am

      I’ve chosen to chalk up the suddenness of Dany and Jon’s relationship to the fact that they are both Targaryens and they share that historical incestuous Targaryen attraction, despite not knowing they’re related. The irony. But hey, even the infamous Oedipus of Greek myth didn’t know he had married his own mother at first…so it makes a certain degree of sense.

      It’s not unreasonable. things like this happen even in our modern world. I remember reading a few years ago about a pair of siblings, boy and girl, who were split up at a very young age when their parents separated. Each parent took one kid and lived far apart, with no contact for years.

      Fast forward some years and kids end up going to university, coincidentally meeting despite all the thousands of people on campus, and since they did not know of one another’s existence, they started dating, fell in love, got engaged, got pregnant, and then decided to have their families meet… which is when Mom and Dad met again and realized these two were siblings.

      So Jon and Dany being related could very well have to do with at least a bit of the attraction they feel for one another, amongst several other things.

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    89. I was wrong.

      I wasnt applying modern values, just the sensation show gives of incest as something deplorable practicised only by Targs.

      There are precedents in House Stark of aunt/niece marryings. Between cousins is not considered incest.

      It’s the faith of the Seven Gods which os more beligerant about that

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    90. After the pilot, I gave up on GOT. I am not fond of fantasy, I am even less fond of horror/zombie stuff, so I said this show’s not for me.
      After hearing about it later on, everyone telling me that it was rather a mediaeval political drama with just a touch of fantasy, I decided to give it a second chance. And have been loyal until today.
      But. This is endgame. This is the end of a show that started with a zombie attack right in its first three minutes. A show whose genre is, after all, fantasy, even if in the first seasons there was time and space to be more about politics and drama.
      I am perfectly aware of that and I accept it. This cannot be Wolf Hall anymore, fellows. It has to be what it was from the beginning. There is no way talking or politicking around an army of wights and a zombie dragon. We have to deal with those in the good old fashioned way: by the sword.
      So, Littlefinger became irrelevant and died. Let’s face it, Tyrion has become irrelevant as well and he would have died if we, the public, didn’t love him so much. Cersei has been irrelevant for quite some time, but she’s still there because the showrunners are afraid that so much of their audience, those who liked the litteral game of thrones would be abandoning ship if the last six episodes is just fantasy.
      Please stop complaining about the changes in the show. The show was going there right from day one.

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    91. ygritte:
      Sam,

      I’m very glad Jon found love again. Admittedly it does feel weird that it’s the dragon girl at other end of the world we’ve been watching for so long, many of us either not liking her or finding her arc boring. However, this last episode in particular sold me on their feelings (thanks to the actors.) Also it helps that she is much more likable (imo) around Jon Snow.

      I agree. The guy needs a break. LOL. 😀 He’s been brooding and melancholic for some time now. Dany’s bringing some sunshine into his life. About damn time. He deserves it.

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    92. Jorah, The Mormon,

      You see, it’s very complicate to speculate about incest when we have so little clue what falls into this category, and what doesn’t. Mariage/sexual interaction between parents and children and between siblings is a taboo – that’s clear. But marriages between nephiews and aunts or uncles and nieces were acceptable in both Medieval and Post-medieval Europe and in Westeros (at least as far as I can guess). So, it might be rather hard to make a believable drama out of the fact that Dany is Jon’s aunt.

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    93. The Many-Faced Goddess,

      There is a scientific explanation to that. It seems that people sharing the same blood are genetically attracted to each other, which, in the case of persons of the opposite sex or matching sexual orientation could lead them to sexual attraction/love. Of course in normal circumstances, morality completely excludes any possibility of such an attraction even being born. But in the case of blood relatives who are not aware of their relation, it is highly possible (and unfortunate because, you know, biology).
      My personal experience: my grandma and her sister were seperated at 3 and 1, respectively. They didn’t see each other for like twenty years and did not even now about each other’s existence. They met without knowing they were related and became instantly best friends. Imagine the (positive) shock when they found out like two years later. It may sound corny, but blood does speak. And in the case of a young man and a young woman, like Jon and Daenerys, it may do quite a bit of talking!
      Now I hope that when they do find out, it doesn’t turn into a soap. It might be gross by our modern morals, but who would care in 1100 AD. We don’t need the extra drama.

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    94. Inga,

      Sou,

      Yes, I don’t think there will be drama around the fact they’re relatives and in love. The only “drama” or complications that can be created out of the revelation are: (1) the question of who’s the rightful Targ heir (which can be easily resolved by marriage), or (2) how the north will regard Jon when they learn he’s actually a Targ.

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    95. Rob:
      Sunfyre,
      Are the characters confused or are the show writers confused?I can’t believe that GRRM is going to have Jon and Dany just “fall into bed” like Kit said.These are the two main characters and they have no reason to fall in love.

      This is suppose to be the epic romance of the series, Ice and Fire, and there is no depth. It’s a problem. Yes, two crazy kids can just fall into bed for no reason, but I have no reason to care about them at all. If they fell into bed, they can just as easily fall out of it- no big deal. Who cares? Aren’t I suppose to care. The point here is maybe the characters don’t need a reason for their love, but the audience does if the show wants us to care about the couple.

      When has Reason ever entered into love?!

      And if it were true that we could reason our way into attraction – I would argue actually they have every “reason” to hook up. They have a shared set of values and principles. Mutual respect and admiration. They have shared political goals. They both could use a sexual release.

      I don’t really know what you mean by “lack of depth” either. Certainly they have more in common than Jon and Ygritte or Dany and Drogo ever did.

      By the way, this is Jon. The same man who wouldn’t impulsively have sex with Mel. Now he is just this happy go lucky impulsive kid? It doesn’t seem genuine, but not much does on this show lately.

      Because while Mel was objectively attractive he had no affection or respect for her. Also it was a lot sooner after Ygritte died so he was still on rebound in a lot of ways. By the time Jon meet’s Dany it’s been over a year (maybe more?) since Ygritte died…

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    96. Jorah, The Mormon,

      But does Jon give a shit about traditions and rules scripted by his ancestors?

      He knew his brothers at Nightswatch would condemn him if he broke vows. Did that stop him from sleeping with Ygritte?

      He knew the North and the rest of the realm would hate him if he made friends with the Wildings. He knew he was destroying the very foundation on which the Nightswatch was built on if he allowed Wildings passage through the Wall. Did that stop him?

      He abandoned his position and duty as Lord Commander to save his brother. Somehow I doubt ‘frowned upon incest’ will get in the way of his love for Dany.

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    97. [3XM],

      Very well said. Fully agree with you. Really liked the way they have protrayed their growing love for each other.

      In your first post you mentioned the music that was playing during the entire scene.
      To me the music is very much key here, since there is no dialog between them. As you say it is a “tragic love theme” and I felt it was very reminiscent of the music when Robb and Talisa got married. We all know what happened to them! Things aren’t going to end well for Jon and Dany.

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    98. Jared,

      I have to agree in Tyrion’s reaction. I never even thought for a moment it was jealousy…if it had been Jorah lurking I would have immediately thought that. We’ve seen Jon make bad decisions for love in the past. Tyrion might not have seen it, but he’s a very intelligent man who knows this is not going to lead either of them to make a sound decision. I have to agree. The saving grace, knowing we will NOT have a happy ending, is that I feel once Jon finds out Dany is his aunt, the physical relationship will end…but will the emotional one end also? I think not…hence, it will be his downfall. I really hope I’m wrong…but we all know the end is not going to be all hearts and flowers;(

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    99. Inga,

      Literally everything you predicted for this season was proven to be absolutely wrong. Remember when the Unsullied and Dothraki we’re no match for the “armored” knights of Westeros? Yeah that was completely and totally wrong. Not only were they a match but they are Far superior. Remember when Dragons aren’t that important and close air support isn’t the game changer that it is? Yeah turns out there isn’t an armor or shield wall in Westeros that can stand up to a strafing Drogon. And as Jamie said that was only one. Remember when Qyburn had the dragons figured out and that he would kill or capture one? Yeah turns out that he could barely pierce their hide and piss them off enough to roast the ineffective weapon. Yeah Dany was as powerful as advertised and there isn’t any living Army in Westeros that can meet her on the field with any chance of survival. Yet if one were to have read comments here before the season Cersei was going to roll over her. Now we have another year of ridiculous predictions to suffer through.

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    100. BranTheBlessed,

      Because it is an AUDIO/visual medium. Music has always been used in movies and tv shows this way. Not just to amplify the emotion of a scene/sequence, but also to tell the audience the meaning of a specific scene and what it means going further.

      As I said when Robb and Talisa get married we hear tragic music in the background. That wasn’t a coincidence! It was a foreshadowing of the Red Wedding.

      No I don’t think Ramin knows, but he does get directions and is told about the meaning of a scene.

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    101. Elizabeth,

      I think Jon’s downfall was decided long ago and it is not a woman. Jon will succumb to duty. He may not know it but he was brought into the world to do just that.

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    102. Martin Vickers,
      QueenofThrones,

      Say whatever you want, but Jon was and still is the best political match for Dany: he has the North and the Vale to acertain expent; with a bit of help from Dany he could (and still can) extend his influence on the Riverlands by restoring Edmur Tully in Riverrun. Moreover, Dany had and still has a chance to establish herself as a liberator and savior in this entire region: all the talks about the Mad King’s Daugter and foreign invader would be forgotten, and with three northern kingdoms hailig Dany as a saint the southern ones would have followed in no time. So, Tyrion should have adviced her to marry Jon and help him right in Ep2. She could have rejected for the sake of drama, but he shoud have adviced that nonetheless, because that was the easiest way to win Westeros and the Iron Trone and moreover this would have protected Cersei and Jaime from an immediate attack creating preconditions for some peaceful arrangement.
      I would be glad to buy the idea that Tyrion wanted to marry Dany to someone else, but who? Dickon Tarly would have been a pretty solid option, but he was never discussed. Sweetrobin is under Jon de facto, if not de jure. Jaime? Sorry, but that’s way too complicated: he loves Cersei, he killed Dany’s father, and Cersei would never accept that. And Euron is too dangerous: he may kill Dany right after marriage, he may kill Tyrion even before that. So, from Tyrion’s POV Jon should be the best choice for him, for Dany, for the realm, for breaking the wheel, intoduing democracy etc.
      The only problem is that Jon would diminish Tyrion’s influence on Dany – not much, because Tyrion had every chance to influence Dany through Jon, but still. In Ep6 I got a strong feeling that Tyrion wanted Dany to name him her successor. He brought up elections, but who would elect Tyrion as a ruler – the Dothraki, the Unsullied? LOL.
      But this is really weird, because, if Tyrion is really supposed to be this good guy who thinks about the realm and takes the WW seriously, he should have been on Jon’s side anyway. And therefore, his actions and plans imply that either he is a trechorous imp who thinks about no-one but himself, or that D&D simply have a writing crisis and have to call that Mazin guy for adwise.

      Chicken Generated Image,

      You know, it’s strange, but it looks like the smallfolk of the Flee Bottom takes the WW threat much more seriously than all the lords and maesters combined. Think of that: Davos was probably the only one who took the pleas of the Night’s Watch seriously and persuaded Stannis to go for their aid. Afterwards or even in the process his allegiance shifted to Jon – again because he took all those talks about the WW seriously. And recently we have got Gendry who was absolutely ready to go and fight beyond the Wall. It may be the issue of writing; but nevertheless we have two commoners who took the WW very seriously. Therefore, if Jon and Dany got a wight they should have used the Dagonpit negotiations to show it to the public somehow – one more missed option for Tyrion, right? At least there was some Lannister soldier who showed interest in the contents of the box. I hope he will spread the word next season.

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    103. BranTheBlessed,

      Of the three statements only one stands: the wildling decision. The others are not strong enough. The first time Jon sleeps with Ygritte he does it, at least in the books, because he has little choice. Half hand tells him that he must stay undercover and part of that was a relationship with Ygritte. He does fall for her later on but his decision to give into her advances was not a ‘I will do what I want to do, fck oaths moment’ at all.

      He did not abandon his oath to the Night’s Watch to save his brother. He “abandoned” the Night’s Watch because he was betrayed by members of said organization. He had given his life to it, what else could he give? After an initial completely understandable reaction of disillusionment, he decided to uphold his duty to be “the shield that guards the realm of men” only this time as a civilian and briefly as a King.

      Then in the last episode, Jon was the same Jon who he has always been: bound to do what is right, even if it is not easy. What that means for his relationship with Dany, we just don’t know. What would be the right thing for him in this situation: renounced incest because it is immoral? Or renouncing his morals for someone he loves? And if Dany ends up pregnant, what about his duty to his child?

      Jon will be incredibly torn, he is never been a fck it type of guy. Sure, you can say he doesn’t care what others say but he cares about what is right, he cares about upholding the morals and values taught to him by his father, the only one he has ever known.

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    104. Sou,

      I would highly doubt that scientifix explanation: from what I red and heard most of the spieces (humans included) have an inborn instinct to look for sexual partners outside their initial goup or habitat. It’s all because a shallow gene pool results in all sorts of weekness and leads to dieing out. That’s why sexual interest is usually triggered by something new, unknown, and challenging. People with common blood may get attracted to each other but not sexually – it’s more about friedndship and/or some natural alliance.

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    105. Martin Vickers: One has to wonder if Tyrion has also suggested a deal to Cersei, along the lines of that between Stephen of Blois and Matilda at the end of the Anarchy in 12C England – Dany will get the throne, but will recognise Cersei’s child as her heir (as Stephen recognised MAtilda’s son, the future Henry II).

      That’s exactly what I suggested above: Tyrion may be thinking to install Cersei’s child as Dany’s heir.

      *Something* happened between him and Cersei that the audience was not allowed to see, and it came right after he waxed poetic about his love of family (non-Joffrey nieces and nephews in particular) and learned Cersei was pregnant. Tyrion may loathe his sister, but he loves the child she is carrying.

      Note that Tyrion could see this is a win-win that “breaks the wheel” by uniting the most difficult to unite houses. Dany wins as presumably she would foster the child and raise him or her in her image, while Cersei obviously gets her own child on the throne. Tyrion is not “betraying” Dany in any meaningful sense if he were to do this, but he’d have to hide it for a while. The Jonaerys coupling complicates this plan.

      It’s all irrelevant in the end, though, because of Cersei’s double-crossing and the near-certain death it will bring upon her at one of her brother’s hands. For a long time I thought it would be Jaime who did the deed (everything lines up for him to become Queenslayer, killing his sister and unborn child for the same reasons he killed the Mad King) but now I am starting to doubt that. Perhaps having Tyrion do it would be even better….a final “twist” from GRRM being that Cersei was actually right about which brother was prophecied to kill her!

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    106. When Kit Harington did an appearance a few years back for George RR Martin and his theater, I would like to point out that someone asked him about Jon and choosing fire or ice and GRRM himself led Kit into the answer by saying “so you’d choose fire”. Not that it means anything necessarily, but it was interesting to me that Kit never really answered what he thought Jon would choose because GRRM answered for him. The entire thing is on youtube by the way if you want to see it.

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    107. hursta1,

      I do agree that I was wrong about many things, but many things in this season were simply short of inner logic.

      OK. I couldn’t imagine that the sowrunners will make Tyrion into the worst strategist of all times. However, I had a strong feeling that giving Dany a vicory will result in giving her a Mad Queen wibe and look: she burned the Tarlies.

      As for the dragons, indeed now it looks like dragons have been a red herring all along. If dragons can be taken down and resurrected so easily, what was the point of introducing them? To give the Night King more power, as it looks for now. And next time he should take the other two, so that Gendry could use his blaksmith skills to improve the scorpion and Bron could practice in shooting? OK, neither of this will happen: the Night King who took down Viserion with a simple javellin will suddenly become uncapable of taking out Drogon, and we will have to struggle suspending disbelief. No problem, it’s just a fantasy show, but it’s not the fantasy show I used to love.

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    108. Just throwing this in as I haven’t read back but……who will wield the Valerian steel sword Heartsbane?

      Not Sam, he’s not a fighter. He’s brought that sword to Winterfell and it’s extremely valuable given the current state of play.

      Who will he offer it to? My guess is Jorah. He healed him after all.

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    109. orange,

      The book version of the House of the Undying visions had this:

      “The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
      “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.”

      Pretty much everyone assumed the man was Rhaegar, the woman Elia, the baby their son Aegon, and the “one more” was to be Jon addition to Rhaenys and Aegon.

      After the seasons finale, perhaps everyone had this vision all wrong:

      the man WAS Rhaegar
      the woman was Lynna not Elia
      the baby named Ageon was Jon not Elia’s son
      the “one more”? Vision Rhaegar is looking at Dany as he says this:
      Dany is 1
      Jon/Aegon is 2
      _________ (the one more) is the 3rd. (Their son? Tyrion? Gendry? Gendry is Danys’ closest living blood relative after Jon, they’re 2nd cousins)

      just spitballing

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    110. Chad Brick,

      That’s a good idea that Tyrion want’s to put Cersei’s child on the throne eventually. But mind, that he started wrecking Jonerys ship long before he learned about Cersei’s pregnancy. He provoked Jon to go on a suicidal mission and then tried to talk Dany out of saving him. Therefore, it should be more to that than just a natural desire to save an unborn family member.

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    111. The Wolves of Winter,

      You’ll never convince me 🙂 I’m not even sure how one can arrive at an undoubted conclusion regards to which music is tragic and which is triumphant?

      Danny,

      Look, Jon is not this Jesus that everyone likes to pretend he is. The show overdoes it a bit, quite frankly. Anyway, father figure Ned Stark always chose love and family over dumb morals and ideals. Jon will probably do the same.

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    112. ghost of winterfell,

      They haven’t mentioned yet that the Golden Company was founded by Targaryen bastards who want nothing more than to return home. I’m betting they don’t stay true to Cersei for long. In addition to not wanting to face dragons, it’s logical that they would support a Targaryen restoration.

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    113. Chad Brick,

      That’s exactly what I suggested above: Tyrion may be thinking to install Cersei’s child as Dany’s heir.

      But this doesn’t make much sense when you think from character pov’s.

      Cersei may love her children but she loves herself and position of power just as much. Its difficult to envisage this character agreeing to vacate the Iron throne to someone else on the promise that her child may one day sit the throne. Said promise made by the little devil she’s hated all her life? Its also impossible to think she’d be okay letting go of her baby to be fostered by someone else.

      Tyrion, well for one thing: he knows his sister better than anyone else. He knows Cersei would never agree to such terms. Second: He knows Dany quite well too, he knows she would never agree to foster a child of an Usurper let alone think of making the child her heir. Third and most important: Tyrion does not have that kind of power, Dany would kick him out if she found out he made such a deal without her consent.

      The most likely scenario where Tyrion would be proposing these terms is if its as lies, an attempt to play his sister. Even this seems far fetched.

      Dyanna,

      Thanks for the nice words 🙂

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    114. BranTheBlessed,

      He may not be the Jesus of Westeros but he is far from the guy you were trying to portray him as. You insinuated that he was a fck it all type of guy who gives not sh*t when that is not true. You only need read his POV chapters to know that he is one of the most internal characters in the saga, he deliberates on everything, except when he loses his cool. What I was arguing was that he was going to do what he thought was right, but I didn’t unequivocally say what I thought was right for him to do. That is still very much up in the air.

      As for Ned and his choices of love over duty . . . was he wrong when choosing one over the other? Would it have been morally right to turn a baby over to the new King so that the King can dispense of him? So that Ned can fulfill his duty to Robert? You don’t even have to take into account that this baby was Ned’s blood to know that Ned was in the right. He would have done the same even for a baby not related to him. And when he confessed to treason, it was his honor he sacrificed, not anyone else’s. Again he did the right thing in that situation.

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    115. Danny,

      You insinuated that he was a fck it all type of guy who gives not sh*t when that is not true

      But he is, he never bases his decisions entirely on popular notions or social/moral obligations. He takes a balanced view and does what he believes is right, that is what I love about the character.

      You’ve read the books so you know what gets him killed right? He plans to get himself and interested members of the NW to partake in the battle of Winterfell to save his sibling. Even though he is bound by dumb oaths not to interfere in such battles.

      I just can’t see society’s take on incest affect his love for Dany. Besides, both sets of his grandparents are incestuous couples, I think.

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    116. BranTheBlessed:
      The Wolves of Winter,

      You’ll never convince me 🙂 I’m not even sure how one can arrive at an undoubted conclusion regards to which music is tragic and which is triumphant?

      Music 101: Typically if music is in a minor key it sounds sad, tragic or melancholy. If music is in a major key it is happy, triumphant or blissful.

      I hope that helps.

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    117. BranTheBlessed: You’ll never convince me 🙂 I’m not even sure how one can arrive at an undoubted conclusion regards to which music is tragic and which is triumphant?

      Well of course, you can’t know exact plot details from music, nor do I. I don’t know what exactly will happen, all I know is that it won’t be good. Maybe I should’ve said “not go well” instead of “not end well”.

      And it’s not just the music, it’s everything about the scene. The visuals, the flashbacks(Rhaegar and Lyanna, what happened to them?), the sound of Brans voice, the look on Tyrions face (regardless of whether he’s worried or jealous, he doesn’t look happy). Nothing about this to me says that this is a good thing that they are doing. This will have consequences. What kind? I have absolutely no idea.

      But you’re probably right. I’ll never convice you 😉
      But what about,
      This is Game of Thrones!
      and
      If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention!

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    118. The Wolves of Winter,

      Funnily enough, the way that scene was built with underlying tones of foreboding makes me believe they’ll actually get a happy ending. GoT writers have shown they have a fetish for misdirection.

      And usually, stories that make use of parallels-especially those comparing different generations- use it to highlight how younger gen will succeed where the older one failed. Not as foreshadowing that younger gen will suffer exact same fate as older one and that history repeats etc

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    119. BranTheBlessed,

      With your first paragraph I agree and that is how I see him as well. But a fck it all guy is more along the lines of Euron Greyjoy and Jamie Lanister (even though we also know that deep down, Jamie cares a whole lot what people think of him). Jon may end up doing what he believes is right but his decisions are never based on what he wants/what he desires but what he believes is the right thing to do. Arya being perhaps his one exception. The show hasn’t really explore the tight bond between Arya and Jon but in the books there are no other two set of characters who love each other more than those two. It was not all surprising that Jon would risk it all for Arya. Just like I am not surprised that Arya would not stand for anyone trying to betray Jon.

      As for the incest, it is not so much what society thinks of it but what Jon thinks of it. Jon does not think well of lying so he doesn’t lie even when maybe he should. How does Jon feel about incest? I don’t remember any instances in the books when he thinks about it or discuss it. I mean Ygritte does tell him that the Free Folk think incest is an insult to the Gods and all but he doesn’t comment on it. It may be that he doesn’t care personally but who knows. Jon is a torture soul, he will torture himself regardless.

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    120. The Wolves of Winter,

      The most obvious consequences of the romance between Jon and Dan is that it will save them from killing each other when Jon’s parentage and status becomes a public knowledge. Dany was already jealous when Mel told that Jon had a role to play implying that she was not the only prince(ss) that was promissed. Jon’s parentage will be a shock to her, especially if revealed by Sam whose father and brother she just burned. So, from Dany’s POV all of that will look like a treason and a plot against her, she will be tempted to burn both Sam and Bran, then Jon will have to shield them, and then she will take Jon as a traitor too. And if there is anything to hold her from DRACARYS, it will be her love and respect to Jon.

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    121. Inga:
      Sou,

      I would highly doubt that scientifix explanation: from what I red and heard most of the spieces (humans included) have an inborn instinct to look for sexual partners outside their initial goup or habitat. It’s all because a shallow gene pool results in all sorts of weekness and leads to dieing out. That’s why sexual interest is usually triggered by something new, unknown, and challenging. People with common blood may get attracted to each other but not sexually – it’s more about friedndship and/or some natural alliance.

      It is called GSA (Genetic Sexual Attraction) syndrome. Not a very frequent one, fortunately.

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    122. Dyanna:
      Just throwing this in as I haven’t read back but……who will wield the Valerian steel sword Heartsbane?

      Not Sam, he’s not a fighter. He’s brought that sword to Winterfell and it’s extremely valuable given the current state of play.

      Who will he offer it to? My guess is Jorah. He healed him after all.

      Given the army of the dead’s speed, I bet it will be Little Sam.

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    123. I love Tyrion, but I cannot understand the complaints around here. Am I forgetting something? Why everybody think that he is such a shrewd politician or such a great strategic mind and that his performance in season 7 was underwhelming? I don’t remember any great political move he made in the first 4 seasons and his only efficient strategic choice was at Blackwater. Why do people seem to imagine he’s a Cardinal Richelieu that the show insists on picturing as an Albert Lebrun?

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    124. I don’t think there’s going to be jealousy from Tyrion, it would have been set up a bit more. It’s difficult to say if GRRM is going to go this path since all these characters have yet to meet in the books.
      But interestingly, it was definitely present in the very early outline that GRRM sent to his editor, well before the first book was written.

      IIRC:
      – Tyrion betrays his family and joins the Starks, rather than Daenerys.
      – Jon and Arya have feelings for each other, but they’re half-siblings so nothing happens.
      – Tyrion falls in love with Arya, although that love is unreciprocated
      – When Jon’s parentage is discovered, the Jon/Arya passion is unblocked
      – Tyrion’s jealousy regarding Jon/Arya is clearly hinted.

      Of course, so many things are different. Tyrion joins Dany, and Dany somewhat takes a part of the role of Arya, and the incestuous situation is reversed.
      Still, despite all the changes, GRRM considered the jealousy of Tyrion about the woman who is in love with Jon, and it’s a situation that could happen now in the show.

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    125. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: Well, in the Season 6 finale Jaime gave Cersei a death stare across the throne room as she was crowned.

      Or one could accept that because there is no such thing as a “death stare” per se
      – stares such as that one could be interpreted in many different ways – the subsequent season simply falsified that particular interpretation. Those people that interpreted the stare as one of shocked incredulity, on the other hand, probably got it correct.

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    126. Inga: So, from Dany’s POV all of that will look like a treason and a plot against her, she will be tempted to burn both Sam and Bran, then Jon will have to shield them, and then she will take Jon as a traitor too. And if there is anything to hold her from DRACARYS, it will be her love and respect to Jon.

      That is a pretty unrealistic prediction. Daenerys knew that her older brother ran off with Lyanna. Indeed, the version that she was given turned out to be much closer to the truth than the one that everyone else believed. And Daenerys knows what happens when men and women do the wild monkey dance repeatedly. So, what she will probably do is put 1 & 1 together (as so some book readers did nearly 20 years ago!), and go “Oh, shit: that all makes sense.”

      Now, if Daenerys were paranoid (like Cersei) or showed some similar malady, then this would be a problem. However, she’s shown very little of such tendencies, particularly given that she really did grow up with “people out to get her.” At any rate, if she were paranoid, then she would have decided that Tyrion and Varys and perhaps others were responsible for all of the mishaps early in her campaign. Instead, she just got angry with them – which is a very sane reaction – and once she cooled down, she started over.

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    127. The Wolves of Winter: If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention!

      Robert’s Rebellion did not have a happy ending, either: and yet a plot synopsis of it would be consistent with what people here consider to be a “happy ending.”

        Quote  Reply

    128. Wimsey,

      Show!Daenerys knows very little about her elder brother and there are no hints that she ever heard anything about his affair with Lyanna Stark. I have no doubt that eventually she will put 1 & 1 together, but she has good reasons to be in denial at first. She believes that she was born to rule the Seven Kingdoms, this belief has shaped her, and being robbed of that will be extremely painful one way or another.

      As for Daenerys being paranoid, she showed plenty of such tendencies, if you were paying attention. Take Jorah. Jorah has never betrayed her: he betrayed king Rpbert. He was sent to infiltrate the enemy’s camp and spy on the Targ siblings who were planning to bring the Dothraki horde to Westeros. Not a very pleasant mission, but it was necessary, right? Later, when he got to know Dany better, his allegiance shifted, and since then he served his Khaleesi faithfully. Nonetheless, Dany has banished him twice. Then Tyrion – there were reasons to be angry at him, but sayin that he was taking the side of his family was definitely over the top. Then Tarlies… And all her interaction with Jon: she tried to be arogan as long as she could, in the Dragonpit she put the blame on him, though in reality she should have simply realeased him from his vow. She kept him honor-bound and went on whinging about the death of her dragon, as if the entire wight hunt wasn’t done to secure her interests in the south. OK, that could have been the issue of writing which have been rather inconsistent this season, but anyway. Dany is vulnerable, she holds to her faith in herself and if anything or anyone shatters that faith we can expect her to respond with fire and blood. Or do you think that after hearing that she was never born to rule the Seven Kingdoms Dany will simply run to her room and do some crying until Jon-Aegon comes to comfort her offering to rule together? That wouldn’t be Dany.

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    129. Tyrion and Sam Tarly seem to be in the same state of disillusionment with their individual situations. Finally, they got their dream jobs – only to discover it wasn’t what they thought it would be. At least Sam could just quit, wonder what Tyrion would do if he truly had enough.

      Jon will have a very difficult time when he learns the truth. I think Dany will be shocked at first, but being a Targ, will accept the reality better.

      (Also, how will Sam react to Dany when he learns of how his father and brother died?)

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    130. Flora Linden,

      Good points about the parallel between Sam and Tyrion. Also, it looks like Jon will be having a difficult time not only because of identity crysis but also due to the reveal that the woman he loves and admires has burned his best friend’s father and brother, cause it really looks like Jon will be forced to choose between Dany and Sam. If Jaime comes to Winterfell and gets a pardon for trying to murder Bran, they will have something to talk about those issues of being in love with a murderous queen.

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    131. Inga,

      But the actor who plays Sam just said he doesn’t give a rats ass what happened and that he would never jeopardize Jon and Dany’s relationship. Look it up.

        Quote  Reply

    132. Luvd80s2,

      I haven’t heard of that. That’s strange, but on the other hand the cast hasn’t got the scripts of the new season yet. One way or another, it doesn’t look righ for Sam to be happy about his father and brother being burned alive. I don’t say that he will jeopardize Jon and Dany’s relationship intentionally, but there should be some ramifications.

        Quote  Reply

    133. BranTheBlessed:
      Chad Brick,

      But this doesn’t make much sense when you think from character pov’s.

      Cersei may love her children but she loves herself and position of power just as much. Its difficult to envisage this character agreeing to vacate the Iron throne to someone else on the promise that her child may one day sit the throne. Said promise made by the little devil she’s hated all her life? Its also impossible to think she’d be okay letting go of her baby to be fostered by someone else.

      Tyrion, well for one thing: he knows his sister better than anyone else. He knows Cersei would never agree to such terms. Second: He knows Dany quite well too, he knows she would never agree to foster a child of an Usurper let alone think of making the child her heir. Third and most important: Tyrion does not have that kind of power, Dany would kick him out if she found out he made such a deal without her consent.

      The most likely scenario where Tyrion would be proposing these terms is if its as lies, an attempt to play his sister. Even this seems far fetched.

      Dyanna,

      Thanks for the nice words

      I did not mean to imply Cersei give up the throne. If she “wins” she keeps it. If not, Tyrion promised to try to install her child as Dany’s heir. Yes, Dany might not like rewarding an “usurper”. But she also promised to break the wheel. This would be one way to move in that direction.

      In any case, I don’t think this will actually happen regardless. Cersei will die and her child along with her, at one of her brother’s hands.

      What I like about this idea is that

      1: It has real-world historical precedent in the era GRRM took a lot of the basis for the series from

      2: It explains all sorts of things throughout S7, from Tyrion’s random discussion of Dany’s succession plans (a Chekov’s gun if there ever was one), to the quick cut away after Tyrion learned Cersei was pregnant, implying the audience needed to be blind to the end of that conversation for plot purposes.

      3: GRRM has stated there were three big plot twists, and then last February said he added a fourth book-specific one to TWOW (probably HR=HS). Shireen and Hodor were the first two. I think Cersei’s doomed baby is the core of the third.

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    134. The Song that was Promised: This is how I interpreted the scene. The way the character dynamics played throughout the episode, Jon has essentially replaced both Jorah and Tyrion in Dany’s life. What does this mean for the future? When Lyanna and Rhaegar gave in to their passions, it certainly had unintended consequences….

      It does seem rather ominous that they are interposing Rhaegar and Lyanna over Jon and Dany making love. The one difference I see is that Rhaegar was married and Lyanna was betrothed to other people when they fell in love. Jon and Dany are unmarried, and could freely make a marriage alliance. I think there will be other complications when Jon’s true identity is disclosed. But in the short term they have bigger worries than who will rule the 7 kingdoms. They need to survive the war for Dawn.

      Unfortunately, I do think Jon or Dany or both will die leaving their child as the hope that comes with Spring.

        Quote  Reply

    135. Inga,

      Sam had little love for his father and family and for good reason. Reasons which have been made clear to Jon in one of his first conversations with Sam.

      Dany did not murder Randyll and Dickon. Its war, they chose the losing side and decided they’d rather die for honor (which is fucking farcical, lets be honest. They have no honor) than switch alliance to a ‘foreign invader’.

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    136. BranTheBlessed,

      Sam had little love to his father – that’s true, but just like Tyrion he wanted to prove his worth to him. Had Dany left Randyl alive, he would have crossed paths with Jon, and Jon would have made him to take back every bad word he ever said about Sam, right? Dany turned that possibility into ashes and it wasn’t war – it wasn’t on the battlefield. And Dickon was a fine guy who didn’t deserve to die the way he did. And there is Sam’s mother and sister… All in all, I expect Sam (and Jon-Aegon) having highly conflicted feelings about Tarlys’ demise, when they learn about it. If not, that will be a bad writing.

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    137. Rob:
      Sunfyre,

      Are the characters confused or are the show writers confused?I can’t believe that GRRM is going to have Jon and Dany just “fall into bed” like Kit said.These are the two main characters and they have no reason to fall in love. This is suppose to be the epic romance of the series, Ice and Fire, and there is no depth. It’s a problem. Yes, two crazy kids can just fall into bed for no reason, but I have no reason to care about them at all. If they fell into bed, they can just as easily fall out of it- no big deal. Who cares? Aren’t I suppose to care. The point here is maybe the characters don’t need a reason for their love, but the audience does if the show wants us to care about the couple.By the way, this is Jon. The same man who wouldn’t impulsively have sex with Mel. Now he is just this happy go lucky impulsive kid? It doesn’t seem genuine, but not much does on this show lately.

      Those were Kit’s words in an interview and in his perspective, the passion drives Jon and Dany to make love even though they probably shouldn’t. But that’s not necessarily what the show runners said, and the composer and director made comments about the coupling that made it clear that it’s much more than two people just falling into bed.

      Obviously, opinions vary on whether or not the show runners and actors did a good job of selling the build-up to the Jon and Dany falling in love. I think they nailed it, given the number of episodes and the jam-packed content. Dany and Jon started out as mistrustful strangers/potential allies, who gradually come to a meeting of the minds and then come to respect and trust each other. I think all of that is a base for a successful military alliance AND for falling in love with someone. That they are also attracted to each other is icing on the cake.

        Quote  Reply

    138. Inga:
      Wimsey,

      Show!Daenerys knows very little about her elder brother and there are no hints that she ever heard anything about his affair with Lyanna Stark. I have no doubt that eventually she will put 1 & 1 together, but she has good reasons to be in denial at first.

      I bet Daenerys knows all about what led to Robert’s Rebellion and her family’s demise. And that was, as we all very well know and Daenerys probably better since it is supposed to be her life story, Rhaegar’s elopment with Lyanna Stark.

      I think you just hate Daenerys a little bit too much to see clearly.

      Let’s take Jorah for instance. There is this person you consider your truest friend and ally. And you find out that he was sent near you to spy and possibly harm you. Ok, he didn’t; but he didn’t come straightforward with that either. So it was reasonable to sent him away; it would have been cruel to take his head.

      Of course Daenerys will be shaken by the Ae-Jon revelation. This will certainly change her whole life expectations. The thing that kept her going ever since she was sold to the Dothraki. But I expect her finding out that she is not an only Targaryen, “alone in the world”, plus the fact that the second one is someone she loves, will be eventually good news, especially if the show does not go full modern morals on us and have her (and Jon) lament their family ties.

      Now Jon, I would expect to take it worse, and with reason; he is so much submerged into his North/Stark-ness, and he will certainly not like finding out that all his life has been a lie and that his beloved father (uncle), the honorable and always truthful Ned Stark lied through his teeth when he raised him as a bastard, subjected him to humiliation mostly coming from his lady wife, and then sent him to rot at the Wall. Jon is the one that will be seriously pissed by the revelation.

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    139. Sou,

      I think that while Jon may initially be upset with Ned, he will also understand why Ned did it – to protect him from being murdered by Robert, Ned’s best friend. That won’t remove the pain of his childhood, but will allow him to view it in light of the alternative – death. He will come to terms with Ned’s decision and see it as similar to his lies to Ygritte, which served a good purpose and yet were very hard on him. As a result, he will also appreciate what the lies cost Ned, in terms of his marriage.

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    140. Inga,

      Yes but they should also know that when wars end, if the former enemies don’t bend the knee to the victor, they are executed. That is nothing new. While death by dragon fire is new to Westeros again, maybe they’ll appreciate that it can be a kind of mercy in a way. Not only is there zero margin for botching it (as opposed to having an executioner try to lop someone’s head off), it is substantially scarier than beheading and results in fewer people refusing to bend the knee (thus causing fewer deaths).

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    141. Next year, after Jon gets word that he is a Targ, i expect a scene with him in the crypt at Winterfell just looking at his mother.

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    142. I can also see the scene immediately after they both find out, and its just the two of them discussing the matter. Dany making somewhat of a selfish argument that she has been on this path all her life and deserves it.. and Jon snapping at her telling her he doesn’t want power, he never has and his whole life and identity has been a lie and that she needs to back off while he figures it out.

      Hell, me learning at 25 that my Dad was adopted by my Grandpa when he married my Grandma was eye opening and had me filling in all the family dynamics and revisiting so many past moments. I could only imagine for Jon. So maybe thats the initial conflict but i think they get over that quickly, still keep their alliance with the oncoming Whites

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    143. Rightful Queen,

      Well, we can extend this philosophy to the Night King too. What’s the point of fighting him, if bending a knee is so cool? I guess he will transform the obedient or at least their childrend into White Walkers breaking the wheel and leaving the world a better place.

        Quote  Reply

    144. Jared,

      THIS!!!! LOVE!!! (I loooveedd Sansa’s wedding.. all except the groom! lol but just absolutely stunning … the nature scene, snow, candle lit “aisle” , she didn’t have her father’s/ Stark Sigil house “wedding cloak” yet had the northern shawl…. idk what you would call it, but her dress and everything Sansa was stunning.. Classic “Stark” and in the Godswood too.. one of my fav scenes…
      He did have many many wonderful, fantastic scenes!!! i agree with this 100%!!!

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    145. Rightful Queen:
      Sou,

      I think that while Jon may initially be upset with Ned, he will also understand why Ned did it – to protect him from being murdered by Robert, Ned’s best friend. That won’t remove the pain of his childhood, but will allow him to view it in light of the alternative – death. He will come to terms with Ned’s decision and see it as similar to his lies to Ygritte, which served a good purpose and yet were very hard on him. As a result, he will also appreciate what the lies cost Ned, in terms of his marriage.

      Yes, he will understand, eventually. And of course Ned was right not letting the world know he was raising a Targ heir.
      Still, I can’t understand why he did not confide in his wife. It was not as if Catlyn Stark was a fool or a chatterbox. Her accepting Jon and not treating him as a despised servant you cannot fire would have greatly ameliorated Jon’s childhood.

        Quote  Reply

    146. LadyLyanna:
      I’d like to see Jon be her Consort, and let her be Queen in her own right,but I don’t think we’ll see many of the major players make it to the very end. That’s why we love GoT…unpredictable, romantic and heartbreaking.

      Oh god I hope not, any scenario where Dany ends up ruling will suck from my perspective. I do feel there is a chance they will rule together though, I don’t see Jon not ruling if he’s alive because it would be so out of character for him not to do his duty. I feel the more likely scenario is at least one of them dies before the end, odds probably favour Dany here but I wouldn’t rule out Jon either.

        Quote  Reply

    147. [3XM]:
      I am very intrigued by the way Podeswa speaks of the Jon/Daenerys scene:
      “It’s an epic revelation about the past, and an epic revelation that’s suggestive of the future and what’s going to happen.”

      The choice to have an intercut montage of Jon/Daenerys and Rhaegar/Lyanna, along with this comment by Podeswa, makes me believe their stories will continue to mirror each other. So that might mean: Daenerys will get pregnant but she’ll die giving birth; and Jon is to die in battle. In a way, I think even the score in the scene points to this sort of resolution – it’s not a “love theme” but rather a “tragic love theme”.

      It’s funny you say that but there was a lot of tinfoil floating around on the internet that Dany will die during child birth in S8. I’m sceptical myself but it could fall into that bitter sweet ending GRRM talks about.

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    148. House Monty:
      Azor Asshai,

      The original outline from George back in 1993 specifically said there where a group of characters who would survive the entire series and that the story was about how these characters are changed and how the world is changed by them.

      Given that, it feels likely that the core group of main characters will survive.

      Yes if I remember correctly the main characters in the original outline were Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran and Tyrion. I suspect the bulk of this group to make it to the end with perhaps 1-2 dying in the shock twist.

      Of the secondary points of view I feel Sam is the safest and Melisandre, Cersei most likely to perish.

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    149. Inga,

      I disagree. The issue of the problematic condition of a woman as a prince has made for a lot of bad European, and particularly bad English history. Male primogenitur and the fact that so many European cultures were practically allergic to idea of a female rulers, i.e. a Queen, lead to wars, alliances, bad marriages and odd hook-ups between countries and leaders (especially after Elizabeth I died unwed and childless). I suggest you read Antonia Fraser’s The Weaker Vessel about the status of women and the concept of being ruled by a Queen between the reigns of Elizabeth I (who was educated as if she were going to be a ruler and as if she had been a male prince) and Queen Anne, who was a royal placeholder and babymaker. The babymaking was not at all successful and as for the placeholding, that didn’t work out so well as Anne was the last monarch in the Stuart line.

        Quote  Reply

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