Brush-up for Episode 7 with Dame Pasty’s Recap and Review of “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken”

BrushUpLogo

Do you feel broken after last week’s episode? Well come have a laugh with me while I recap and review Episode 6 Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken as only a Dame can. The format is a bit different. No video of me, just audio but lots of pictures and comments, and no spoilers this time. And, yes, my opinion of the closing scene. But it’s at the very end and I warn you ahead of time, so if you’re just so over that whole discussion you don’t have to hear my two cents.

Video after the jump

As always your thoughts about my interpretation of things is always appreciated!

99 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Thanks Dame P. I agree with you that we will have to see how things pan out in the rest of the series to see whether the final scene of last week’s episode was included for worthwhile or for sensational reasons. It’s been a very hot topic on the website of course this last week but I guess if folk are truly outraged they should write – or email – to HBO (or Sky Atlantic in the UK – or whichever network shows GoT in their country) and express their feelings – of write to B Cogman if he is contactable, though they should write in a polite but firm manner, not a “yah boo sucks” manner.

      I take it you are not a fan of the roach stompers, then!

      I think an unfortunate result of THAT final scene is that it has hijacked attention away from other plot building scenes in the same episode. I liked the subtleties of building up Arya’s progress through her training so that she can become “someone else” and the interaction between Jorah and Tyrion. I didn’t personally mind the Trystane and Myrcella interchange (many people have found it too drippy seemingly) even if it was a bit Mills and Boonsy (Mills & Boons print romantic novelettes in the UK); there is so much darkness in the show that I don’t mind the occasional lighter moment.

        Quote  Reply

    2. Dame of Mercia:
      I didn’t personally mind the Trystane and Myrcella interchange (many people have found it too drippy seemingly) even if it was a bit Mills and Boonsy (Mills & Boonsprint romantic novelettes in the UK); there is so much darkness in the show that I don’t mind the occasional lighter moment.

      Agreed! Between being very “pulp romance” in his dealings with Myrcella, and very quick to put a hand on his sword in his dealings with men, he reinforces and builds upon everything we’ve been told about Dorne in under a minute of screen time.

      IMO, Trystane is yet another one of Dorne’s bright spots being dragged down by a lot of poor choices in the interpretation and execution of the Sand Snakes.

        Quote  Reply

    3. Liked the review.

      I’m interested in whether or not Ramsay is actually worse than Joffrey. I’m going to say not. They work on different settings. Jeffrey’s world is so public and Ramsay’s much more private. They were also raised differently. Joff was raised to be a king. A public figure. And his mother babies him. I’m sure that Ramsays childhood was much different. Perhaps freer. And in the show Roose brings him up. If Joffrey was a Bolton u bet ur ass he would be flaying men left and right.

        Quote  Reply

    4. I am so ready to see my man Stannis again!

      So far, the big reason for sending Jaime to Dorne is to get him out of Kings Landing so Cersei can self-destruct with out his counsel/protection. Hoping that changes.

        Quote  Reply

    5. Well, Inside the Episode 7 has leaked (what is the problem with this season and leaks omg)

      SPOILERS

      Aemon dies and Cersei gets her comeuppance.

        Quote  Reply

    6. One thing the scene did was open a discussion between my naive son, his friend and I about marital rape, sadism and my contention that pain has no place in sex. It was quite a long discussion and I can only hope I have influenced them to be as good a man as my husband. This isn’t an easy discussion to get into once the kids reach adult age..even if they aren’t savvy to the world. But it was important.

        Quote  Reply

    7. Thanks again Dame Pasty for taking the time.

      I was really hoping for something lighter and to laugh, but this one seemed to have a dark cloud of gloom over it. I was really hoping with how the site has been over the past week, we could focus on other things in the episode, like Dame of Mercia suggested. It just seemed rushed to get to the Sansa part. I would of liked to have some discussion of spoilery topics at the end, but I guess too many people just can’t handle another terrible thing happening to Sansa. In my mind, I was glad that was the worst that happened! Sadly, plenty of these women in this world are raped as a common occurrence. Think about it, this is Ramsey! He could of done anything, and they had all those horrible actions in the book to choose from. My brain will never get over the quote from Jeyne about the dogs!

      I do wonder if this is going to be a common occurrence now that we are coming to the end of the written material so far. I feel that even if something worse happens in the remaining books, people are going to be very unhappy because you’re not expecting it. When you’re reading a book it’s quite different than having to see it on television. You can stop after the first sentence, regain your bearings and then read on. I know a few people who had to do that with the Red Wedding. Most people don’t pause the television and watch it later after they have come to grips with what is happening to a character they love.

        Quote  Reply

    8. WalterHarrow,

      god i feel like he is been in every episode …

      so he arrives back he will be sad to hear about Aemon …and decide to send Sam to oldtown ..

      so now i think we actually get to see an aftermath of jon stabbing

        Quote  Reply

    9. Sean C.,

      That seems fairly probable. I imagine there’s a reason why they need to get him back to the Wall in this episode as opposed to the finale where

      the shit will hit the fan

      Also, to put it on the record here ahead of the episode, I call

      Edd dying at Hardhome in E8 when the Walkers crash the party

        Quote  Reply

    10. Woah. I didn’t think Jon would be in episode 9, and I was so sure that those Arya-related events would take place in episode 10, not 9. Won’t episode 10 be a little… light?

      So I guess Arya simply won’t be in episode 10?

        Quote  Reply

    11. Luka Nieto:
      So I guess Arya simply won’t be in episode 10?

      No, I expect she’ll be in. That’s one of the things that has interested me about Arya’s story this season, when it became clear that “Mercy” was in episode 9 (and I believe we had filming info that strongly indicated that for a while), was that the finale would likely offer some indications as to where Arya’s story is headed next.

        Quote  Reply

    12. King Tommen,

      That’s interesting…

      It would not shock me if this is the episode Jon is hit. I say that because I do not think the show wants to or can keep an offseason cliffhanger of is Jon dead or not. We saw with the amount of photos that leaked for season 5, in an age where you can take an HD photo with your phone and upload it to millions in seconds, I’d give Kit Harington 5 days tops, before being spotted filming for season 6. I think what happens after Jon is resurrected (episode 10) is the big cliffhanger. I could be wrong but especially given the title of episode 9 and their love of double meanings, I could see Jon being hit. Both Jon and Dany are in danger, Dany manages to escape, Jon does not. “The Dance of Dragons”. We’ll see.

        Quote  Reply

    13. Sean C.,

      Well, that’d be amazing, because it would involve a major revelation —about character, not plot. After all, if they follow the books…

      The “Mercy” chapter strongly implies her days as a Faceless Man trainee are over. She has been trying and failing to become “no one” for a while now, and by the end of that chapter she —very dramatically— accepts her real identity: Arya Stark. GRRM has confirmed that, at least, it’s over for her Mercy identity after that.

      Anyway, isn’t the finale a bit short on material? Maybe we were spoiled by the incredibly long “The Children.” I shouldn’t expect every finale to be sixty five minutes long. Still… what will episode 10 involve? The consequences of “Mercy”; The post-Daznak aftermath in Meereen, probably mostly from Tyrion and Jorah’s perspective instead of Barristan; Jon getting stabbed; Daenerys in the Dothraki sea; Cersei’s Walk of Shame and a version of the epilogue. Am I forgetting something? Maybe Dorne will be resolved in episode 10 instead of 9? I doubt it, because I’m pretty sure they won’t be in episode 8, so that’d be 2 episodes of no Jaime / Doran / etc.

        Quote  Reply

    14. Jim,

      I’ve seen a lot of people raise the “filming spoilers” thing, but I think that’s a complete non-issue. That has never stopped TV shows from doing season-ending cliffhangers about whether a character survives or not, and any fan who is obsessively keeping track of set photos would know enough about the story to know that Jon is obviously not dying. Casual audiences will not be aware, one way or another.

      Luka Nieto,

      There’s all kinds of speculation as to what the events of that chapter mean for the future. My point being, this season’s end may offer some real indicators.

      As concerns episode 10:

      I expect the bulk of the climax of the Winterfell plotline will be in here, obviously including whatever point they’re going to leave Team Dragonstone on.

        Quote  Reply

    15. King Tommen,

      Wow – I hope that you are wrong about Edd. Your predictions have been correct this season so I am officially worried. I agree with other posters that the “shock” will not be Jon’s stabbing but his resurrection. And still no confirmation on the title of episode 10 yet?

        Quote  Reply

    16. Sean C.,

      I completely forgot about them, even though the Northern storylines (Night’s Watch, Stannis & Winterfell) are my favorite of the season. You’re right. The Winterfell storyline will have to resolve in episode 10. If it resolves at all.

      mariamb,

      Whatever episode 10’s title is, I hope it’s something impactful that gives readers a hint of what’s to come in the finale.

        Quote  Reply

    17. Luka Nieto: Whatever episode 10’s title is, I hope it’s something impactful that gives readers a hint of what’s to come in the finale.

      Imo, it’s going to be tough to top the title for episode 9.

        Quote  Reply

    18. King Tommen:
      I don’t know where else to put this but TV guide has the E9 synopsis up:

      http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/game-of-thrones/episode-9-season-5/the-dance-of-dragons/305628/

      Hmmm…. 5.09 so crowded. For the Episode 10 Essos storyline,

      I hope Tyrion and Jorah wrap up the Meereen mess after the dragons have gone to work the prior episode (and Grey Worm recovered) while Daenerys goes back to her past and takes control in Vaes Dothrak.

        Quote  Reply

    19. Kay,

      Crowded especially considering it’s a pretty short episode. 53 minutes; that’s a few minutes below average for this show. Thankfully episode 7 and 8 are an hour long. Hopefully episode 10 will be as well. Also, cover your book spoilers!

        Quote  Reply

    20. Thank you, Dame Pasty! Great review. Totally agree with you on both the episode’s appraisal, and the controversial scene. The environment around here has been so toxic, that I have been literally tiptoeing around the threads for several days. Nice to see a balanced review.

        Quote  Reply

    21. King Tommen,

      *part one of this comment is spoiler-texted because I’m replying to the guy who posted episode 9’s synopsis*

      Wow, Winterfell plot not mentioned in the synopsis again. I hope that’s because something interesting happens and they don’t want to spoil it; not because it’s being omitted.

      *part two of my comment is BOOK SPOILERS so don’t click it Unsullieds*

      I wonder, even though episode 9 is going to be the Daznak’s pit episode, and will probably feature Dany flying on Drogon, could the finale scene actually be Theon and Sansa escaping Winterfell?! A lot of people think the Battle of Ice is happening this season, and if it’s going to be like the books, the escape needs to happen beforehand.

        Quote  Reply

    22. Arya Havin’ a larf?,
      GhostCR,
      Thanks for the positive feedback!

      Dame of Mercia,
      harma dogememe,
      I don’t really mind Trystane and Myrcella. It’s just young naive love is so easy to pick on. Call me cynical! I think Dorne would have been better served with one Sand Snake done well than three done poorly.

      Demonmonkey,
      That’s actually a good point! You’re right, being such a public figure did restrain him unlike Ramsay’s upbringing. But as a result Joffrey wasn’t as far gone.

      Gwenivere,
      Part of the problem this week had nothing to do with the darkness of the episode. Normally I start on Monday to work on it but this week I didn’t get started until last night. So I didn’t have time to work on the jokes. I was up to 3 am finishing it. I don’t plan on waiting so late in weeks to come. And I don’t expect to be shocked again like that again. My guard is up now. Like I said, I was being naive.

        Quote  Reply

    23. Luka Nieto: Also, cover your book spoilers!

      Sorry!! Not being an actual book reader, I tend to forget. 🙁

      Just read some speculation as to what

      Stannis’ difficult decision may be. Sacrificing Shireen. 🙁 There were whispers from Liam Cunningham that storyline will have something absolutely heart-breaking in it. I hope not, but I always am in utter fear for Shireen’s life. Surrounded by mad parents and mad red Priestess.

        Quote  Reply

    24. I was honestly concerned that they wouldn’t give us the end of Danys story. And while I would love to know Jon’s fate, I could see them cliffhanging that. To the casual watcher he is just dead. No reason to believe in resurection or warging. It might even give the Unsullied the same experience we r having.

        Quote  Reply

    25. Luka Nieto,

      Regarding the title of episode 10….

      A few weeks back, there was mention that the title was “Winter.” Has anyone heard anything further about that possibility?

      Kay,

      If anything happens to Shireen, I will be devasted. That’s too much misery. In the books, Shireen isn’t with Stannis so that would be a big departure. After that lovely speech, I can’t imagine that Stannis would sacrifice her.

        Quote  Reply

    26. Dame Pasty.. these brush-ups are very enjoyable … So far, I think your “meh” opinion of the sand snakes is very kind 😉

      And I’m not nearly as willing to delay judgement on the final scene. I can see the pickle the writers are in, given time constraints ..the difficult choices they have to make.. and I suppose they’re damned if they do, damned if they don’t to a certain extent.

      In regard to focusing on Theon’s face and the complaints about that,

      in the books , it’s how it affects Theon that’s important. Horrific as it is for Jeyne Poole, she’s a far less important character than Theon,and nowhere near as important as Sansa. So it is important to Theon’s development, and on the other hand, the idea that it’s a Stark daughter that’s suffering is important as a motivator for northerners, so I can see the writers dilemma.

      Still I think they might have had other choices, so for now, I’m thinking it’s exploiting Sansa, unless they can find some way of rationalizing it..which seems unlikely ,to me.

      I fully expect there will be some fancy footwork (or use of jetpacks ) to get Sansa out of the north before the next set of important political developments are revealed, leaving her WF storyline about as meaningful as Yara’s side trip to the Dreadfort. I just hope they can make it seem more sensible.

      Alfie Allen is wonderful, and Sophie Turner is excellent as well with what she’s been given. I just think it won’t be possible to really make a silk purse of a sow’s ear.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Obsidian:
      I fully expect there will be some fancy footwork (or use of jetpacks ) to get Sansa out of the north before the next set of important political developments are revealed, leaving her WF storyline about as meaningful as Yara’s side trip to the Dreadfort. I just hope they can make it seem more sensible.

      Given Littlefinger’s plans, as revealed to Cersei, I now think Sansa is probably staying in the North, and her Vale plotline is now going to her.

        Quote  Reply

    28. In regards to the jet pack comments about Littlefinger. I could be mistaken but I think Ned and fam got from winterfell to kings landing in 2 episodes, which I believe is how long it took Littlefinger, in a much larger entourage. So months in the space of 2 episodes.

        Quote  Reply

    29. Demonmonkey,

      That’s true, but the difference is that way back in 101-102 there were fewer plots, which made it easier to fit months of travel in between episodes or scenes. By this point the show has so many plots that it really doesn’t fit all of the given beats for months to be passing offscreen (GRRM had the exact same problem with the books, for the record; hence his inability to move the story forward like he wanted to initially).

        Quote  Reply

    30. Sean C.,

      That’s why I’m all for ‘screw the passage of time’. Every time there was a longer journey, the show always took care to give it an extra episode off screen. So, as far as I’m concerned, it’s all good.

        Quote  Reply

    31. In terms of travel on the show, I long ago made my peace with the fact that characters would move as quickly or slowly as the plot required them to. The audience is not privy to how fast they are hauling ass on the road or making the trip at a more leisurely pace. Since I don’t see this, my suspension of disbelief is satisfied. This issue is hardly unique to this show.

      I mean we could have strict dogmatic realism with travel times if everyone really wants to and then we’d have to have characters off-screen for multiple episodes so everyone’s travel measurements can be satisfied. I’m not sure why anyone would want that trade-off though. We’re five seasons in. I think this should be something that people can put aside by this point. Aren’t there more important things to concentrate on?

        Quote  Reply

    32. Trying to be realistic with travel times could ruin the pacing of the show. It’s hard enough to fit some storylines in 10 episodes as is without adding realistic travel times.

      I always just assume that the various storylines aren’t in the same chronology (for instance, in season 3 episode 1 Dany arrives at Meereen- which should be a few good weeks after season 2- while Jon only just meets Mance- directly after the season 2 events). Basically, time passes differently in different storylines and they aren’t in sync, which allows longer travels to happen off screen.

        Quote  Reply

    33. On the topic of episode `10, I’d love for them to go full on The Wire and make it 90 minutes. Almost certainly won’t happen though.

        Quote  Reply

    34. King Tommen,

      The Stannis part is what interests me the most.

      I have a feeling this is the episode we see Ramsay attack his camp.

        Quote  Reply

    35. I agree that we need to see what happens in future episodes before deciding why they chose to film the rape scene. I know what I want to see happen, but we’ll have to wait and see.

        Quote  Reply

    36. I hope in next episode an earthquake happens in Dorne, kills all the characters there and concludes this terribly bad “Disney” storyline! Or maybe a Volcano depending on the geographical characteristics of Dorne! (A supposedly Mediterranean area which oddly resembles Northern Ireland landscape with green plains and shorelines!)

        Quote  Reply

    37. I’m really looking forward to Dorne for the upcoming episodes, I think now that Jaime’s plan has been foiled there should be some good stuff ahead.

        Quote  Reply

    38. SomeKings,

      The problem with leaks, is that people like you keep posting them!

      The spoiler tags are for BOOKS only. For fuck sake…

      I don’t mean to single you out, but between the leak-spoilers, and the increased, just-plain-rude posts that have been near-constant on other posts the last several months, why does anyone bother with this site’s comment section anymore?

      This used to be a fun place.

        Quote  Reply

    39. It is logical that whoever does not appriciate the last scene of the last episode (only bookreaders though) is not able to seperate the books from the show. Give me a reason why that scene dosn’t work?

        Quote  Reply

    40. ZBongo,

      She is a character portraying a human! This argument, that it’s fiction so it doesn’t matter is so tired and false. Fiction doesn’t happen in cultural vacuum, it depicts and influences public opinion on several issues. Also, if we are not supposed to care for characters because they are not real then… how can I put it: The whole concept of fandom and sites like this would simply not exist.

      It annoys me to no end that there are pages and pages of people analyzing Stannis’s ( for example) motivation, character and story arc, and nobody bats an eye (and they shouldn’t), but as soon as people start analyzing things like rape, the silly argument that “it’s just fiction! It doesn’t matter!” gets trotted out…

      Do people saying this even realize that this could be said about every single thing that has ever been written in this (and other) fansites? Where is Dany going? What is Jon going to do with the wildlings? Is Arya going to avenge her family? Wasn’t the Red Wedding really sad? Wasn’t Ned’s beheading a shocking betrayal? Who cares, it’s fiction, right?? They are “characters”, not real people, riiiiight?

        Quote  Reply

    41. Greenjones,

      hi ., are you staying out of Westeros.org i dont see you post there often like before…

      will we have a season 6 casting and speculation like we did with season 5..that thread was very helpful for catching up filming and casting details

        Quote  Reply

    42. Ozy,

      I’m really excited about watching the aftermath to Hardhome. And of course, Hardhome itself, an episode earlier. That whole idea was a stroke of D&D genius —think about it: it’s not an invention, but an amalgamation of three different missions Jon conceives in ADWD!

      Jon first sent Val as a wildling envoy North of the wall to find the wildlings after the battle, who were led by Tormund himself, as he was not captured during the battle. Later, when Tormund came back and told Jon about the many Free Folk at Hardhome, Jon shipped Pyke and his Eastwatch men off to the ruined settlement to save them. However, wights surrounded the area and they were left stranded, so Jon and Tormund planned to go themselves and save the black brothers and wildlings both —however, this mission was interrupted by the Pink Letter. So, D&D picked up the Hardhome context of the latter two failed missions (more action potential) and ascribed it to the successful first mission to send a wildling envoy North and bring the Free Folk through the Wall. It’s perfect —a single climactic event which, if most crows weren’t idiots, should ensure Jon’s legacy as the best Lord Commander since the Watch forgot they were established to fight White Walkers and not wildlings. A happy climax… just before everything goes to shit.

        Quote  Reply

    43. So there wont be any Ser patrek when For the watch happens …will that stupid theory go away now ..are will people still stick to that still the books come

        Quote  Reply

    44. Luka Nieto,
      Episode ten must have some big material in it – on Thronecast last week (I think) the presenter said that a member of the cast had said to them that episode ten in particular was going to “break the internet”. Sorry if some of the details are vague – the quote is legit.

        Quote  Reply

    45. Luka Nieto,

      I’d even say that this version of events seems to be superior to George’s own overly drawn-out and lacking in forward plot momentum Wall storyline.

      The other changes — like King’s Landing and Meereen, both of which are substantially simplified — I wouldn’t call either better of worse, just an understandable streamlining of material given time constraints. The Wall, however, is both simpler/clearer *and* in better service of the plot. In both AFfC and ADwD Martin way too often falls prey to the erroneous line of thinking that more detailed necessarily means better.

        Quote  Reply

    46. Time is a funny thing in both the books and TV. I haven’t really seen too many problems with it, though I do wish they at least made LF seem a little exasperated when Cersei orders him to make what should be a multi-week journey and is in fact one that will take over a month. There is also an issue of delay – LF should have responded to Cersei’s note by raven within about five days, yet a rider would have taken almost a couple weeks to cover that distance, plus a few more days for raven time. On a scale of inconsistencies, that is pretty small, though.

      One thing that I find funny is that S4 took course over apparently no more than a month – the time it would take Arya and the Hound to walk from the Twins to the Vale (S3 E10 to S4 E9). I don’t think any of the other plot lines are inconsistent with this. Clearly, more like 3-4 months has already passed in S5, possibly more. Hmmm…next time I watch S1-S3 I’ll have to think about this more.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Mr Fixit,

      Agreed. The Wall is undoubtedly the best storyline this season. Hopefully now that Stannis is off Castle Black his storyline remains just as great.

      dragonbringer,

      That’s kind of a spoiler…? Good news, anyway. I love that guy.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Luka Nieto,

      i thought it was ok …unfortunately i cant edit it now

      i love him too …though i dont know what this means to rest of team dragonstone

        Quote  Reply

    49. Luka Nieto:
      Mr Fixit,

      Agreed. The Wall is undoubtedly the best storyline this season. Hopefully now that Stannis is off Castle Black his storyline remains just as great.

      For me it’s a tie between the Wall and Winterfell. I am quite pleased with how things have turned out there, Sansa included. Very strong stuff.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Chad Brick,

      I think the passage of time closely follows the books. Season 1 close to a year, Season 2 around 9 months, Seasons 3 and 4 maybe 6 months taken together.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Is it normal, that the 7th episode is almost here, and we still don’t know the title of the last episode?

        Quote  Reply

    52. TOS linked to a Spanish article about dubbing. The writer has seen tonight’s episode, and says it includes a scene

      that has not happened in the books and we have been waiting for for years.

      My money’s on R+L=J.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Felt Pelt,

      Speaking of interactions that we always wanted to see….I was surprised that Mel and Aemon never spoke to one another in a stand-alone scene. Seems like an opportunity wasted…could have been tremendously insightful.

        Quote  Reply

    54. mariamb:

      Recall Agamemnon’s sacrifice of his first-born Iphigenia to turn the winds…….. 🙁 Is Martin influenced by mythology?

      Felt Pelt:
      TOS linked to a Spanish article about dubbing. The writer has seen tonight’s episode, and says it includesa scene

      Yes!

      Daenerys and Tyrion meeting. Finally. At long last. Hope Tyrion meets Viserion soon too.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Hodor’s Bastard,

      I always wonder (and maybe forget if the books covered it) what Mel thinks about dragons. Doesn’t Varys in the books dislike dragons because they’re magic-based?

      Mel loves fire, and control. Despite Dany having similar interests, I don’t think they would get along. Mel probably would shiv a Targaryen to get a favorable omen, and Dany probably thinks it’s wrong for people beside her to light people on fire.

        Quote  Reply

    56. Waxfoot:
      Luka Nieto,
      Episode ten must have some big material in it – on Thronecast last week (I think) the presenter said that a member of the cast had said to them that episode ten in particular was going to “break the internet”. Sorry if some of the details are vague – the quote is legit.

      Hello fellow Thronecast viewer *waves*. I’m pretty sure Sue Perkins (the presenter, not our own Sue the Fury) said the breaking the internet thing was Daniel Portman (Pod). Also, did you notice that Jessica Henwick – not sure which Sand Snake she is due to their rather limited character development so far, but I loved her Tommen impression! – said episode 10 instantly when asked which of the remaining ones she was most looking forward to. Everything is lining up nicely for big events spread across a number of story lines and I for one can’t wait :O)

      EDIT: Kay Nooooooo not Shireen! It’s not looking good for her but I hope against hope they won’t go there sacrifice-wise. A tragic accident I can cope with but not deliberate action by her own side. I will be sobbing into the cat :O( Maybe Davos will be her onion niggit in shining armour and save her. There’s no way he’d ever allow it *cheers self up with idea* :O)

        Quote  Reply

    57. Felt Pelt: I don’t think they would get along. Mel probably would shiv a Targaryen to get a favorable omen,

      I would love to have seen Mel and Aemon exchange some wary words with each other. 🙂 I’ve always wondered where the R’hlorr folk stood with the Targs. They do seem to have dubious parallels and suspicious contrasts.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Hodor’s Bastard: I’ve always wondered where the R’hlorr folk stood with the Targs. They do seem to have dubious parallels and suspicious contrasts.

      The religion does seem to have a Valyrian feel to it, doesn’t it? Was that the Church of Valyria or something? I don’t recall that ever coming up in the books: but I suppose that the Targaryens would have imposed it on the Westerosi, and there is nothing indicating that they did or even attempted to do so.

      At least we have a good idea where some of the R’hllorites (is that a word?) stand concerning Daeny. How Mel will react to Daeny should be interesting, to say the least.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Queensmoot:
      ZBongo,

      She is a character portraying a human! This argument, that it’s fiction so it doesn’t matter is so tired and false. Fiction doesn’t happen in cultural vacuum, it depicts and influences public opinion on several issues. Also, if we are not supposed to care for characters because they are not real then… how can I put it:The whole concept of fandom and sites like this would simply not exist.

      It annoys me to no end that there are pages and pages of people analyzing Stannis’s ( for example) motivation, character and story arc, and nobody bats an eye (and they shouldn’t), but as soon as people start analyzing things like rape, the silly argument that “it’s just fiction! It doesn’t matter!” gets trotted out…

      Do people saying this even realize that this could be said about every single thing that has ever been written in this (and other) fansites? Where is Dany going? What is Jon going to do with the wildlings? Is Arya going to avenge her family? Wasn’t the Red Wedding really sad? Wasn’t Ned’s beheading a shocking betrayal? Who cares, it’s fiction, right?? They are“characters”, not real people, riiiiight?

      No, I’m saying it’s silly to lambast the show runners for using a character to further plot. Bad things have happened with many characters. We are meant to empathize. But it’s suddenly different for this one character. Like she’s real. It’s not intelligent.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Call me an unfeeling ahole, but I still don’t see the physical “violent” or “cruelness” in Ramsay’s actions here. I’ve watched the episode three times this week. Dame Pasty, I agree with a lot of what you said and you have a balanced view. My breakdown is the following.

      When they enter the room, Sansa still isn’t too worried about things going, well.. extremely south, she’s hesitant and nervous, that’s for sure, for all the reasons you mentioned and about her accepting that a bedding was going to happen when she returned to Winterfell. It’s actually when Ramsay forbids Theon to leave that she becomes shocked.

      Looking at Ramsay’s dialogue, when I first saw the episode, I took it as him trying to put her off for the sake of putting her off and gaining some form of dominance on purpose, but when you consider Ramsay’s position, being new to being a Lord, growing in status, I presume he wouldn’t want to deal with the trouble if the baby that comes out of Sansa’s pregnancy is actually a Lannister/Stark-bastard that in the future, may be going after him or his kid for example. That’s a legit worry in Westeros, he just heard the story of his own conception and knows that as a former bastard, they can have a lot of malicious thoughts towards anybody who does have a righteous claim. Also, Lannister bastards are pretty easy to pick out #theseedisstrong.

      As for actual violence, I didn’t see it. I saw him gently push Sansa onto the bed and then getting impatient with her dress. I didn’t see a beating. But I did hear Sansa, but as you said, first times (can) hurt. It’s insensitive of him to rush Sansa though, that’s for sure. But I will return to that later.

      Returning to the dialogue, he also just has a bad sense of humor, first making the joke about Walda’s Area 51, and now about Tyrion’s dwarfism. He’s trying to light the mood, but he’s just doesn’t have any sensibility or humor, so I think that’s not him trying to be cruel intentionally. Think of Joffrey’s way of entertaining a woman, when showing Marge through Baelor’s sept dungeons whatnot.. Joff, such spirited lad, thought he was being funny, heck even charming, but he had no clue of his own outward persona. Ramsay is similar in that regard, but worse in his attempts. Actually, Joffrey made quips intentionally at Sansa’s horror.

      The interview Iwan gave with Vulture also informed me (don’t know if you’ve read it) that in Iwan’s eyes, Ramsay doesn’t seem to think as Sansa as a plaything (as he does see Reek and Myranda), but as a Lady and that putting a baby in her is a “job that needs to be done” for the sake of furthering the family-line and that in his relationship with Sansa, it is not about some twisted form of dominance/obedience, which is what rapist need to get it up as you so eloquontly said it. A job that needs to be done.. a “get it over with”-mentality and using a term (Lady) that would seemingly put Sansa on some form of pedastal. Here I disagree with you that Ramsay’s glad that he’s married and can finally torture somebody legally. This interview shows us that Ramsay’s not into that with Sansa at all, and would much rather prefer that sort of intimacy with Myranda, who in his eyes, is willing to go further for him in the sexual sense.

      Iwan Rheon:
      – Sansa = the woman he needs to get pregnant.
      – Myranda = the woman he can get off on.

      That mindset is all that you need to know that Ramsay wasn’t going at Sansa as a sadist, but as a rather insensitive pragmatist. That doesn’t mean that we can’t feel repulsed by the scene. As you said, the mind can imagine things as far worse things that didn’t actually get shown/happen, which despite your balanced view, I still think happened with your take on the situation. And I don’t blame you, because it’s hard to change such a view, especially when the character is as unlikable as Sa.. Ramsay, who has a history of sexual violence.

      Also, I should’ve been writing on my master thesis.. Yet, I wrote a piece of 700 words on GoT.. Good lord..

        Quote  Reply

    61. Wimsey,

      The World of Ice and Fire says that Old Valyria had no official religion. Valyrians apparently didn’t believe in gods at all (thinking they were the gods, more or less; how humble of them), but they encouraged religious tolerance and diversity among their subjects and slaves so that no single religion could arise to challenge their status.

      Where does ‘R’hllorism’ come from? I guess it’s possible it was one of the slave religions of Old Valyria or maybe it has roots in Asshai.

      While we’re at it, is anyone else a bit bummed that we, in all likelihood, won’t be seeing the fabled Asshai? I would gladly exchange Dany’s Slaver’s Bay ADwD arc for a visit to the Shadow. Didn’t Quaithe basically tell her that she’d pass that way on her way to Westeros? I suspect Martin abandoned that plan when he scrapped the 5-year-gap. Pity if so.

        Quote  Reply

    62. OT: Wouldn’t it be funny if Lena Headey’s mysterious baby papa was Pedro Pascal? Other humorous options that I’ve read for the baby papa include NCW (obviously!), Peter Drunklage, Eugene Simon and Mark Addy.

      It’s a girl, btw.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Dame Patsy: that was a very good summary! You covered all of the bases pretty well.

      I think that you hit the nail on the head concerning Dorne. For all that people here get worked up on the SS (who are incidental characters in the book and on the show), this is about Jaime and how he is going to interact with Doran. The SS are just foils to create an adversarial situation for Jaime and Doran: hopefully, just as certain scenes in the book did, they will let the show communicate that

      “grown up” Jaime isn’t Tywin II, but someone much more humane.

      Indeed, the Water Garden scene wound up being a mini-analogy of the entire show: three sides (the guard vs. the SS vs. Jaime & Bronn) standing off against each other with none of the three sides having an obvious ally in any other of the two. That’s SoI&F in a nutshell!

      I would add one thing to all of your very well-laid out summary about Sansa being sexually assaulted by Ramsay. What you basically note is that in a world like the one in which they live (and which still exists some places today), that was another mine in a field full of mines. Sansa has no social or legal recourse on this.

      So, this becomes like Jaime losing his hand or Theon getting castrated or Bran getting crippled. If those were done without anything following from it in terms of character evolution, then those, too, would have just been gratuitous violence.

      But I would caveat that the alternatives of this developing Sansa or developing Theon should be a soft “or: indeed, really it should an “and”. After all, Sansa is horning in on Theon’s storyline here! I will be disappointed if we do not see dramatic evolution in both characters following this scene. One constant theme in character arcs is a sort of catharsis where what rises from the ashes is more impressive than before.

      But nice summary: I’ll have to watch more of these in the future.

        Quote  Reply

    64. Mr Fixit: I would gladly exchange Dany’s Slaver’s Bay ADwD arc for a visit to the Shadow.

      While I wouldn’t have minded seeing a couple of chapters shaved off of that, I’m not sure what going to Asshai would have done for the story. At least Meereen provides very strong parallels between what Daeny is doing and what Jon is doing.

      However, I do agree that GRRM must have meant something for Asshai originally. Doesn’t Jorah repeatedly mention trying to get her there? I suppose that GRRM might have had in mind something like a dragon horn for taming dragons, but then realized that it was all plot for the sake of plot, and cut it. Of course, I’m not sure why he even needs it: by the end of Dragons, it is pretty clear that we can believably see a bond between human and dragons. (And the show already has shown it very nicely: that Drogon scene early in the year was great for that.)

        Quote  Reply

    65. Wimsey:

      However, I do agree that GRRM must have meant something for Asshai originally.Doesn’t Jorah repeatedly mention trying to get her there?I suppose that GRRM might have had in mind something like a dragon horn for taming dragons, but then realized that it was all plot for the sake of plot, and cut it.Of course, I’m not sure why he even needs it: by the end of Dragons, it is pretty clear that we can believably see a bond between human and dragons.(And the show already has shown it very nicely: that Drogon scene early in the year was great for that.)

      I am a sucker for fantasy mystical eerie shit happening; I’m shallow like that. 😉 I don’t know what Martin’s plan for Asshai was, but it seems a fascinating otherworldly place; what little material there was in TWoIaF served only to whet my appetite.

      Since Martin originally intended that Dany’s first chapter in ADwD after the 5-year-gap opens with Daznak (whereas in the published book it was next to last), I can easily imagine her visiting Asshai for a chapter or three.

        Quote  Reply

    66. Mr Fixit: I am a sucker for fantasy mystical eerie shit happening; I’m shallow like that.

      heh, I certainly agree that it makes (or can make) a great backdrop! And I must admit, I do remember thinking that it would be cool to see what was there. However, that was before Clash: that seemed to put a dagger in it.

      I seem recall that I was hoping that we’d get to see more of the far north, too. However, I don’t think that would happen, and although it would be neat on one hand, it would also be a big time suck on the other.

      Of course, at this point, I just want GRRM to get to his end game. It’s been nearly two decades, dammit….

        Quote  Reply

    67. Wimsey: Of course, at this point, I just want GRRM to get to his end game. It’s been nearly two decades, dammit….

      I’m resigned to the fact that GRRM is going to out live me and release WOW and ADOS simultaneously on the day of my death

        Quote  Reply

    68. Roose On The Loose: I’m resigned to the fact that GRRM is going to out live me and release WOW and ADOS simultaneously on the day of my death

      Those sharp pains you are feeling? Yeah, voodoo dolls. Lots and lots of voodoo dolls….. (I’m about to get a baseball bat for mine!)

      🙂

        Quote  Reply

    69. Mr Fixit: I am a sucker for fantasy mystical eerie shit happening; I’m shallow like that. I don’t know what Martin’s plan for Asshai was, but it seems a fascinating otherworldly place; what little material there was in TWoIaF served only to whet my appetite.

      Since Martin originally intended that Dany’s first chapter in ADwD after the 5-year-gap opens with Daznak (whereas in the published book it was next to last), I can easily imagine her visiting Asshai for a chapter or three.

      The problem is that Dany sticks to cities like a fly on stickytape.

      Also, really? Beginning Dance with Daznak would mean that we would likely see Dany’s return to the Vaes Dothrak, and then a march on Pentos I’d reckon. Mostly because of the Tattered Prince’s role in the story, or Dany could foresake that pledge Barristan made, which may have lead to a betrayal, but it seems too meaningless.

      It’s still a thing though, “to go to Asshai, or not”. If they wanted to go there, they’d have to cross Yi Ti as well, don’t they? We know there’s a timer on it, because Dany will leave Meereen next year, that’s all but certain if they want to end this in 7 seasons.

      Since Dany and Jon’s arcs mirror each other quite well, there’s a part of me that hopes that they don’t go to Asshai. In that way, Asshai would be Dany’s “The Land’s of Always Winter”, a place where a good deal of Jon’s storyarc comes from, but I don’t reckon we’d see Jon actually travelling towards. Dragons in Asshai, Others in TLoAW. Seems like a parellel otherwise unheard off.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Ser Oromis Locke,

      With how things turned out, I’m certain Dany won’t go to Asshai. In an SSM, Martin confirmed that, if at all, we’d only see it in a flashback (presumably Melisandre’s). As for Yi Ti, yeah, with Martin’s current geography, the way by land to Asshai goes through there. A while back, though, his maps were quite a bit different.

      I wonder if, once the book series is done, Martin will more openly talk about different ideas and roads not taken. Could be interesting.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Ser Oromis Locke: Beginning Dance with Daznak would mean that we would likely see Dany’s return to the Vaes Dothrak, and then a march on Pentos I’d reckon

      Why would Daeny go back to Vaes Dothrak?

      Ser Oromis Locke: In that way, Asshai would be Dany’s “The Land’s of Always Winter”, a place where a good deal of Jon’s storyarc comes from

      I think that we got that already from Daeny’s joining the Dothraki. Both Jon and Daeny essentially spend a lot of time with “savages” deemed dangerous by the Westerosi and who have catch phrases with the word “know.” Moreover, both have gained the loyalties and respects of some members of their respective “enemies” despite major obstacles (Jon’s a southerner, Daeny’s an icky girl).

      At this point, I would not be surprised if

      Daeny returning to the Battle of Slaver’s Bay on Drogon leading Khal Bongo’s cavalry

      will be in the offering.

      Mr Fixit: I wonder if, once the book series is done, Martin will more openly talk about different ideas and roads not taken. Could be interesting.

      Let’s just hope that he lives to do so!

      Have you ever read The Histories of Middle-earth? You get to see all of Tolkien’s early stabs at Lord of the Rings. Man, they sucked! Of course, this also is a very different case: Tolkien was writing without any story in mind just because the publishers wanted a sequel; GRRM has had the story in mind all along and has just been struggling to get the plots and narrative details in line.

        Quote  Reply

    72. Wimsey:

      Have you ever read The Histories of Middle-earth?You get to see all of Tolkien’s early stabs at Lord of the Rings.Man, they sucked!Of course, this also is a very different case: Tolkien was writing without any story in mind just because the publishers wanted a sequel; GRRM has had the story in mind all along and has just been struggling to get the plots and narrative details in line.

      Just Hobbit, LOTR, and Silmarillion for me.

        Quote  Reply

    Jump to the Top

    Leave a Reply

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *