Breaking Down the New Game of Thrones Season 7 Photos

Daenerys (Emilia Clarke), Tyrion (Peter Dinklage), Missandei (Nathalie Emmanuel), Varys (Conleth Hill) and Grey Worm (Jacob Anderson) in their new stronghold / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Daenerys (Emilia Clarke), Tyrion (Peter Dinklage), Missandei (Nathalie Emmanuel), Varys (Conleth Hill) and Grey Worm (Jacob Anderson) in their new stronghold / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

The promotional photos for Game of Thrones Season 7 released today, and by now I’m sure you’ve all seen them (unless you’ve been living under a rock). There is a difference between seeing and truly seeing, however; as Syrio Forel would say, “Look with your eyes.” Light spoilers and speculation ahead, including references to information from released teasers and photos. Let’s break them down one by one and see what details we can glean from them – after all, picking things apart is what this fandom does best, right?

First up we have Queen Cersei Lannister (Lena Headey) seated on the Iron Throne with her loyal-beyond-all-sense brother/lover, Jaime (Nikolaj Coster Waldau), in attendance. Cersei looks as proud and defiant as ever, but Jaime looks…sad? Defeated? Maybe he’s wondering why on earth he’s still sticking around? It appears they are looking at someone, but who? Perhaps Cersei is simply hearing petitioners, or maybe someone important has come calling. Let’s hope whoever it is doesn’t get the Septa Unella treatment.

Cersei Lannister (Lena Headey) and Jaime Lannister (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau) in the Red Keep / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Cersei Lannister (Lena Headey) and Jaime Lannister (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau) in the Red Keep / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Next we have last season’s fan favorite and breakout star Lyanna Mormont (Bella Ramsey) at what I assume is Winterfell, possibly picking up right where the finale left off. Hopefully she is giving another fiery motivational speech to get everyone prepared for the real battle – facing the White Walkers. Of course, Littlefinger (Aiden Gillen) is in the background looking characteristically sleazy. He must be leering at an offscreen Sansa. Maybe Lyanna can have her 62 men take him out this season?

Lyanna Mormont (Bella Ramsey) and Littlefinger (Aidan Gillan) in Winterfell / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Lyanna Mormont (Bella Ramsey) and Littlefinger (Aidan Gillan) in Winterfell / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Here we see Ser Davos Seaworth (Liam Cunningham) at the main table Winterfell, to the right of Jon’s seat. He’s sporting a nice new fur cloak for the winter and seems to be listening to someone, but there isn’t much else we can take away from this photo. I’m just grateful he’s still around to give invaluable advice to King Jon Snow.

Davos Seaworth (Liam Cunningham) in Winterfell / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Davos Seaworth (Liam Cunningham) in Winterfell / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

This is an interesting picture of Samwell Tarly (John Bradley) and Gilly (Hannah Murray) studying books – likely somewhere in the Citadel. Of course, astute observers immediately attempted to decipher the text Gilly is reading. Luckily Redditor itsjayrr realized it was taken from a passage in The World of Ice and Fire. The entire text is reprinted below the photo.

Samwell Tarly (John Bradley-West) and Gilly (Hannah Murray) studying at the Citadel / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Samwell Tarly (John Bradley-West) and Gilly (Hannah Murray) studying at the Citadel / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

“It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R’hllor [changed to The Lord of Light in the photo] claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return. In the Jade Compendium, Colloquo Votar recounts a curious legend from Yi Ti, which states that the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover, and that disaster was averted only by the deeds of a woman with a monkey’s tail.”

Is this just a shout out to book readers, or will we get more information on Azor Ahai? Considering Melisandre alluded to Jon being The Prince that was Promised last year, I believe we will learn more about the prophecy and potential contenders this season.

Up next is Meera Reed (Ellie Kendrick) and Bran Stark (Isaac Hempstead Wright). Poor Meera seems exhausted after pulling Bran for so long. They both appear to be looking up, so hopefully they’ve arrived at the Wall and Castle Black. If Bran crosses the Wall though, what does that mean for the magic imbued in it? If the Night King’s touch allowed him to cross the magical barrier at the cave, will it do the same at the Wall?

Meera Reed (Ellie Kendrick) carrying Bran Stark (Isaac Hempstead Wright) near the Wall / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Meera Reed (Ellie Kendrick) carrying Bran Stark (Isaac Hempstead Wright) near the Wall / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Here we have another fun look at Tormund (Kristofer Hivju) and Brienne of Tarth (Gwendoline Christie). She seems to have made it safely back to Winterfell (hopefully with Podrick in tow), and Tormund appears to still be smitten with her. If we could see Brienne’s face, I’m sure it would be full of exasperated disdain like last season. I just don’t think poor Tormund can take Jaime’s place in her heart.

Tormund (Kristofer Hivju) and Brienne of Tarth (Gwendoline Christie) / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Tormund (Kristofer Hivju) and Brienne of Tarth (Gwendoline Christie) / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

In this photo of Littlefinger and Sansa (Sophie Turner), they appear to be looking down on the Winterfell courtyard. He’s probably trying to pit her against Jon again, or maybe another sibling who (hopefully?) returns home this season. Sansa looks like she’s not sure how much more of his scheming she can stand. Please get rid of this guy already, Sansa!

Littlefinger (Aidan Gillen) and Sansa (Sophie Turner) in Winterfell / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Littlefinger (Aidan Gillen) and Sansa (Sophie Turner) in Winterfell / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

It’s good to see the Hound (Rory McCann) still has a role to play, and either winter has spread to the Riverlands, or he has headed north. The latter is a likely assumption, considering the Hound’s encounter with the remaining Brotherhood Without Banners last year. They wanted to recruit him to fight the “cold winds rising in the North.” He appears to have soldiers with him, but it’s difficult to make out their allegiance.

Sandor (Rory McCann) and the Brotherhood Without Banners / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Sandor (Rory McCann) and the Brotherhood Without Banners / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

This picture gives me chills – in a good way. Jon (Kit Harington) is definitely in the Winterfell crypts, possibly paying his respects to someone. It could be a newly interred Rickon, but I believe he is actually standing in front of the statue of Lyanna Stark, his mother. He looks sad (a common look for him, to be fair), and maybe a bit regretful? I think I even see a tear in his eye. Will he learn the truth of his parentage this season? We can only hope!

Jon Snow (Kit Harrington) visiting WInterfell's crypts / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Jon Snow (Kit Harrington) visiting WInterfell’s crypts / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Next is Arya Stark (Maisie Williams). She appears to have left the Twins, but it’s difficult to tell where she is in this picture. Is it an inn? Maybe she frees Edmure and helps him take back Riverrun? Wherever she is, she seems fearful here. If you zoom in on her eye, you can see the reflection of what looks like a person silhouetted in a doorway. I wonder who could make her so afraid?

Arya (Maisie Williams) at an inn / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Arya (Maisie Williams) at an inn / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

The final set of pictures are all of Team Dany. The first is of Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) in the throne room at Dragonstone, as we saw in the Season 7 teaser released last month. I’m in love with her outfit – finally Targaryen colors!

Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) in front of her new throne / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) in front of her new throne / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

The next three pictures aren’t terribly revealing, but they do show the rest of Dany’s entourage. Lord Varys (Conleth Hill), Missandei (Nathalie Emmanuel), and Tyrion Lannister (Peter Dinklage) are all wearing new, warmer clothing – much needed in the cold Westeros winter heading their way. Since Varys is wearing fur, his picture may be from later in the season, or perhaps another – colder – location?

Varys (Conleth Hill) in his new winter clothes / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Varys (Conleth Hill) in his new winter clothes / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Missandei (Nathalie Emmanuel) in Daenerys' new stronghold / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Missandei (Nathalie Emmanuel) in Daenerys’ new stronghold / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) and the Unsullied / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Tyrion (Peter Dinklage) and the Unsullied / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

The final photo appears to show Dany and crew assembled outside a castle. As we reported back in October of last year, filming took place in Zumaia, which appears to be where this was taken. This could be their landing point in Westeros; Daenerys seems to be looking up at her new home and readying herself for what’s to come. This will be a pivotal moment for her, and one she’s been preparing for all her life. Will she finally be able to take back her family’s throne?

Daenerys (Emilia Clarke), Tyrion (Peter Dinklage), Missandei (Nathalie Emmanuel), Varys (Conleth Hill) and Grey Worm (Jacob Anderson) in their new stronghold / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

Daenerys (Emilia Clarke), Tyrion (Peter Dinklage), Missandei (Nathalie Emmanuel), Varys (Conleth Hill) and Grey Worm (Jacob Anderson) in their new stronghold / Photo: Helen Sloan/HBO

What do you think of the photos? Do you have any other insight or speculation to offer? Let us know in the comments!

* Note: please cover/label all spoilers as appropriate! Thank you! * 

545 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Lyanna is wearing a different top than in the S6 finale so I don’t think it’s picking up right after the same scene. Definitely Winterfell though.

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    2. I don’t know if it’s just a coincidence but the time betweeen the first teaser and the long walk teaser was exactly 3 weeks and the time between the long walk teaser and the photos was exactly 3 weeks. So all have dropped like every 3rd Thursday. So maybe a trailer in a few weeks?

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    3. If Ayra is indeed afraid, I can only think it being Jaqen, No One. I just don’t think that story line is completely over. It could be, but…

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    4. The dragon ornament worn by Grey Worm in the group photo is the same one Missandei is wearing in the individual photo of hers. Does this mean Grey Worm dies this season? Thoughts?

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    5. Jaime looks pretty bad ass with what I believe to be Widows wail at his side, or does he not have it yet at this point.
      Mark my words, The Season 7 trailer will release on May 26, or on that Week hopefully XD

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    6. Shreyans,

      No, I think they both simply have matching dragon pins for Team Dany but in the solo pic of Missandei she has the pin attached to material like a cape that she doesn’t have in the group pic. So I think either she simply alters her outfit later or we see Dany gift the pin to her possibly with a higher position to promote her with.

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    7. Arya doesn’t look fearful to me. She looks watchful, curious, and maybe a tad apprehensive, but not fearful. And that looks like a wooden tray with food in front of her.

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    8. Wolfish,

      It could be Hot Pie. Ayra may have just recognised someone who was important to her but can’t say anything until an opportune moment. That’s why she sits with her hands clasped. Hot Pie was Arya’s “family” for a time.

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    9. arya looks like she’s saw someone, maybe the redwoman? Or maybe it’s that moment when she got info about winterfell or about big direwolf hunting with her herd. Basicly man in background look in the very place what arya so that must be something or someone who bring their attention. Look at her fists – for me she’s doesn’t fearful, she’s too dangerous for now for being fearful, she just got some important information . And for me she’s an Inn or some tavern – and who know, maybe she’s gonna reunite with hotpie XDD. Sorry for my english i’m definitly better in reading than in writing.

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    10. I just realize it. Sandor is wearing what is appears to be the cloak of the former lem lemoncloak’s (the hanged bwob).

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    11. The actresses name is Emilia Clarke, not Emila Clarke.

      Also, look behind Varys. He’s definitely still in Dragonstone in that picture.

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    12. Yeah, Lyanna’s definitely wearing something different to the S6 finale. And how fucking awesome does Sam look in his brand spankin’ new Acolyte robes? Hell, everyone looks amazing in their new wardrobe; especially Dany.

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    13. Matthew The Dragon knight,

      Jamie is most certainly carrying Widow’s Wail. And it’s about time for that sword to show back up and hopefully get some use beside cutting up old historical books.

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    14. Shreyans,

      I guess that Grey Worm will give Missandey that brooch with dragons before he goes somewhere, where Dany sends him. I don’t think that implies his death (though not excluded), but one way or another he’ll have to give that brooch to Missandei beforehand.

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    15. It’s great so far! I’m really looking forward to S7! No books, no spoilers for me this year… really hyped overall!

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    16. Vanessa Cole,

      Indeed, Dany could have ordered more than one brooch for her closest friends, but in that case I would expect Missandei and Grey Worm wearing them in the same picure. It’s not the case. Grey Worm wears his brooch in the picture from Ep 1 (or 2). Missandei’s individual picture is from some later episode.

      I think it’s from the scene on the Dragonstone battlements she will share with Davos and Jon; so, my guess it’s Ep 3, 4 or even 5. By that time Grey Worm and the Unsullied will be in the Casterly Rock, as the filming spoilers imply.

      So, it looks more like Grey Worm will give his brooch to Missandei before he leaves – as a token of love or something. Anyway, I hope that Missandei will do something more prominent, than simply stand by Dany’s side and the brooch may be a hint to that.

      Another thing, you have missed is that the page Gilly is reading have some inscriptions at the bottom and they look very much like lineage/horizontal diagram of some family tree. My guess is that it’s the Targarian falimy tree linked to the AA prophesy and therefore it may be the document revealing Jon’s true status or the document that will motivate Sam and Gilly to study Targaryan lineage more carefully.

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    17. My speculations reference some info discussed in the Blu-Ray series. There are no spoilers from the books nor from leaks. Some of these photos remind me of predictions I have posted (or not?) in the past:

      1) Meera pulling Bran. She is taking him to the secret passageway leading to the Night Fort, an ancient and magically extra-protected location where they met Sam and Gilly awhile back.

      From there, they will travel by horseback (thanks Edd at Castle Black) to Winterfell. Then she/they will go to her home, Greywater Watch, a constantly shifting terrain that may evade the NK’s “mark” on Bran.

      http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-predictions-season-come/#comment-676256

      2) Gilly and Sam. Shireen, a Grayscale survivor, taught Gilly to read. Gun on Wall: She will be the one who finds the cure for Jorah.

      3) Jaime with Widow’s Wail, text of what Gilly is reading. Dawn, ancestral sword of House Dayne, is SUPER-important! http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Dawn

      In Bran’s Tower of Joy vision, Ned killed Arthur Dayne with it, then rushed into the tower with it. It was last seen leaning against the wall while the focus shifted to Lyanna and baby Jon.

      Perhaps it is the Red Sword of Azor Ahai. If so, Jon may need it to face the Night King. Since the NK was created by the Children with “ordinary” dragonglass/obsidian, Longclaw may not be effective.

      Can’t wait!!!

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    18. I don’t understand why they stopped having the unsullied carry their swords if y’all will remember the first season they were on they had at least one sword along with their shield and their pointy stick thingy (forgot what it’s called). I could have sworn the unsullied were supposed to have mastered multiple types of weapons I thought that and their discipline was what made them so famous. Am I right? Or am I forgetting something?

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    19. All I know is those layers of leather and fur are going to be harder to get off for the sex scenes.

      Speaking of those, Jon surely can’t learn about his parentage prior to bonking his aunty?

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    20. Violator,

      If he does, I’m not sure it would make a difference in the context of Westeros. We see examples of cousin and even uncle/niece marriages in-universe (more so in the books), and they aren’t viewed as abhorrent or wrong. We even see it in our own medieval past among nobility. It’s the immediate family pairings that are “abominations” – siblings and parent/child.

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    21. Shreyans: The dragon ornament worn by Grey Worm in the group photo is the same one Missandei is wearing in the individual photo of hers. Does this mean Grey Worm dies this season? Thoughts?

      It’s odd since the back ground behind Missandei looks like the same as where Grey Worm is too.
      I hope not since would not expect that to happen until S8. The Unsullied would have to pick a new leader , nuts to that.

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    22. Cersei was meant to sit on the Iron Throne. She looks so beautiful and regal. My queen forever and ever!

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    23. Interested to see some shots of Meera and Bran at Castle Black, where I guess Edd is the only main speaking character and in charge.

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    24. As usual, the photos seem to be from early in the season – likely all from the first or second episode. They don’t want to reveal too much.

      If Meera and Bran haven’t reached Castle Black yet, I’m really wondering how they worked up a sledge for Bran so quickly.

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    25. Flayed Potatoes,

      Long may she reign!!

      I wonder what Lindaa has to say about the show using that passage from twoiaf lol. I guess HBO would have had to take permission from her and Elio for using it?

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    26. Violator,

      Hilarious. I think you are right. Jon, Mr Honorable, would probably think that’s a little weird. They have to shag, D gets preggers, and then discover it’s all a little icky – now that’s drama!

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    27. Athelstane,

      Meera is a skillful girl… I mean… if this picture was from after they went to Castle Black, that would mean she was dragging Bran all the way to Winterfell?! I don’t think so.

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    28. Vanessa Cole,

      You are right, it’s only sibling or parent/child relations that are looked down upon. Tywin married his cousin as did Ned’s father. The Starks also have Aunt/Uncle to Nephew/Nieces marriages in their history.
      It would be far worse if they were siblings. Their relationship would be easily accepted in their times but not ours though perhaps a little awkward when the truth gets revealed. Though even in Jane Austen times relatives like cousins/Aunt/Uncles still married in the families.

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    29. Athelstane,

      It’s not a real sledge: it’s an improvised one. Meera must have cut several fir-trees in the Weirwood and made the “sledge” out of them.
      And the photos are from episodes 1 to 5 at least, as far as I could figure out based on the costumes.

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    30. Daenerys looks really good and her attire really grows on me. Also love the details on Missandei and Grey Worm outfits. Really cool work from the crew regarding clothes for Team Dragonstone.

      Jon looks sad as always and glad we’re getting into crypts once more. Sure many tears will be shed during that from many fans. Seeing tombs for Ned, Robb and Rickon.

      Really like Cersei on the throne … oh did I just said that? Jaime by her side is a bit off but whatever.

      Tormund oh my sweet Tormund… Brienne wants Jaime.

      Sansa’s wig looks horrible, quite the contrast of her and Dany’s or Cersei’s wigs.

      Arya is in what looks some Inn or? She might be still in Riverlands, could it be the same in from season 3 Brotherhood or season 4 Brienne and Pod?

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    31. Jon Snows also not known as Jahaerys Targaryen is most assuredly in the crypts of Winterfell. All. The. Feels. ?

      Not spoilers since I really don’t know any and have tried to stay the hell away from any spoiler materials:

      1) I don’t think Jon finds out his parentage until MAYBE episode 7. They’re gonna milk that for the entire season, me thinks.
      2) The Wall is coming down. Thanks, Bran! Kidding not kidding. He messed up bad.
      3) Arya will be in trouble along the road North when Nymeria saves her.
      3a. Stop killing the direwolves!!!
      4) I think at least one of the dragons dies.

      Those are all guesses. I really don’t know for sure.

      The only thing I know is I’m HYPED AF for this season!

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    32. Vanessa Cole,

      It would to Jon. He has the same high morals as his father/Ned who raised him. Jon might have sex with Dany. But, he will be repulse & reject her once his parentage is known to him.

      Arya is in a Riverland inn listening to Ed Shireen sing a song extolling Jon’s heroism in taking back Winterfell.

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    33. Arya looks like she’s in a pub, and someone just walked in who she recognizes.

      I bet Jon is paying respects to any number of recently deceased Starks he actually knew and cared for.

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    34. heh, interpreting facial expressions from stills is always quite dangerous: many very different moods include the same expressions over the duration! You really do need the sequence to tell if a particular look is in a “happy,” “sad,” “serious,” etc. sequence.

      And to repeat what others have stated, Jon & Daeny would not be considered incestuous in Westeros. They certainly would not see each other that way: our instincts against incest are triggered by being raised as children together. Unrelated children raised on communes frequently view each other as unattractive for that reason. Jon & Daeny would be two good looking, charismatic individuals with similar values and goals who’ve never met each other. Think of it as being akin that “big” relationship you had in college where you thought you might have met “the one” for the first time: the meeting probably would be akin to that.

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    35. Phoenix,

      That would only follow if there was thought to be something inherently immoral about avuncular marriage in Westeros. There’s no indication that is the case, anymore than it is considered odd for cousins to marry.

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    36. Extra Stark, Please: 2) The Wall is coming down. Thanks, Bran! Kidding not kidding. He messed up bad.

      We don’t know the theory of time travel to which GRRM adheres. Bran’s screwup might have been a temporal tautology: it “always” happened. If the Three-Eyed Raven really had not wanted Bran to “trip” alone, then the Three-Eyed Raven should have told Bran why this was a bad idea. However: given that Hodor was Hodoring, under the “single time stream” theory, Bran already had done what he was going to do.

      Under a different theory of time and time travel, the events leading to the NK breaking the spells around the Weirhub happen one way or another no matter what Bloodraven does or gets Bran to do. So, if Bran doesn’t do that, then he does something else. If so, then Bloodraven might simply have stopped trying to dissuade Bran after the umpteenth circuit through the time-loop.

      We know that possible futures can be averted in GRRM’s universe, but we have no indication that the past can be changed. So, Bran probably was pretty much a poster-boy for supralapsarianism…..

      Phoenix: But, he will be repulse & reject her once his parentage is known to him.

      You are projecting our values onto people who would not consider this relationship wrong! As several posters have noted, this wouldn’t be the case in Westeros. Moreover, why would only Jon feel that way? Why wouldn’t Daeny feel the same?

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    37. Geralt of Rivia: Really like Cersei on the throne … oh did I just said that? Jaime by her side is a bit off but whatever.

      Trying to glean too much from teasers and stills is usually folly. However, this still does offer pretty strong evidence against the idea that Jaime is going to completely reject Cersei as a result of her Season 6 actions.

      Wolfish: Arya doesn’t look fearful to me. She looks watchful, curious, and maybe a tad apprehensive, but not fearful. And that looks like a wooden tray with food in front of her.

      Or she could look lost in thought. Or taken aback or otherwise surprised. Or about to sneeze. Or terrified. Or any number of other things: without seeing where her face was a second before and where it goes a second after, it’s impossible to tell.

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    38. Wimsey, I need to go back in time to my younger days and partake in Bong rips to entertain your theory. Lol! Kidding. I get it. Is time alterable? Probably not.

      Meant the Bran poke at the end as a silly pun akin to the ‘Thanks, Obama’ internet sarcasm of the past years.

      Side note for all–I am NOT making a political statement in any fashion!

      We’d all be better off with Queen Dany and King Jon with Tyrion and David as advisors.

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    39. Extra Stark, Please: Wimsey, I need to go back in time to my younger days and partake in Bong rips to entertain your theory. Lol! Kidding. I get it. Is time alterable? Probably not.

      Or just watch Doctor Who! 🙂

      Sidenote: I missed that “Thanks Obama” allusion! But, then: maybe I was predestined to do that…..

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    40. Wolfish:
      Arya doesn’t look fearful to me. She looks watchful, curious, and maybe a tad apprehensive, but not fearful. And that looks like a wooden tray with food in front of her.

      Agreed. That is not Maisie’s fearful look. She is so good and accurate with her facial expressions that nobody would doubt it’s fear if that’s what she was conveying. Nothing has changed my mind since yesterday and I still believe that it’s from the Sheeran cameo scene at an inn.

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    41. Clob: She is so good and accurate with her facial expressions that nobody would doubt it’s fear if that’s what she was conveying.

      But, again: without seeing the immediate before and after, we cannot say that. Expressions are not snapshots: they are sequences. And many different expressions share snapshots somewhere in the sequence. Indeed, the one thing that tells us that Arya is reacting to something and not just staring into space lost in thought is that the two people behind her appear to be looking at the same thing.

      The fact that the two men behind her are looking is a little more informative. Because they are turning slightly to look at whatever it is (whereas Arya has only to turn her eyes slowly), this tells us that whatever has their attention was calling attention to itself. That argues against, say, some person wandering into an inn: that happens so much that most people pay it no mind. There could be someone speaking up front, or some entertainer singing/dancing/whatevering, or a fight breaking out or a wolf howling immediately outside of the building or some Frey soldier holding up a “wanted” poster showing the serving wench thought to have killed Lord Frey: or any of a very large number of other things. All we know is that it has grabbed attentions, including Arya’s.

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    42. I think many will feel a bit weird seeing sansa because of the using of wig for first time ..but on the other hand dany’s look good ..

      It would be so nice if Gilly read the passage from Jade Compendium that jon read in ADWD..

      I can’t wait to see the disappointment of those who think that jon will become repulsed and reject dany..

      I wonder who dany is looking at or what that scene is supposed to be. .we can see its in the throne room and missandei in the back ..if I have to guess it must be when jorah comes back because it’s the only time show has dany feel emotional.

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    43. Wow! Great pictures and loving the new costumes as well.

      I do think that Jon is standing in front of Lyanna there, probably after he heard it from Bran. Though it could be something else of course but I doubt it.

      What a day! Pics of the new season and Ajax through to the semi-finals of the EL.

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    44. Wimsey,
      Yes, yes, you can say the same sort of thing about everyone of these pictures. Still, we can get a pretty good idea of the probable mood from a single shot.

      As my favorite character and favorite cast member I always pay close attention to Maisie and her expressions. I don’t see any fear in this photo and don’t expect there will be in the scene. She appears to be sitting quite relaxed watching and listening to something of interest, just as the men behind her are. This is why I’m of belief that they are all listening to a minstrel played by Ed Sheeran.

      What do they do with a cameo appearance of a singer who’s casting was mainly because Maisie is a huge fan of his? A short appearance singing a song in a scene with Maisie makes perfect sense.

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    45. Phoenix,

      I think the people shipping incest between Jon and Dany says more about their own lack of morals or perhaps their own shallow gene pool than the shows.

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    46. “He would know.” Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king’s son, a king’s brother, a king’s uncle. “I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.”
      Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …

      I would love to have a look at Ned’s and Robert’d face when they hear Daenerys Targaryen leading all the dothraki has taken dragonstone with three dragons..

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    47. dragonbringer,

      It won’t be Jorah. She’d be happy to see him based on their previous interactions. She cried during their convo.

      As for Jon. He needs her armies … he won’t reject her but surely won’t be impressed with her attitude. I can see him having problem with that and if she does not believe in the other stories, that might be too a problem. The North needs help now and every potential day or week wasted at Dragonstone could be costly.

      He’ll most likely grow to like her but once parentage is out, what would be in his character is to end for the sake of everybody. Of course if he manage to knock her up, it could complicate things. Do I expect them to end any potential relationship based on this, probably not. Show or books will push him into Targaryen ways … it’s inevitable.

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    48. Geralt of Rivia,

      Well she can get emotionally happy when she sees jorah cured… It could be emotions settling in because after all dany is finally in her home the place she was born and the place where Targaryens and their dragons lived ..On second Thought it maybe when jon departs for jon and dany walks with him..
      I know these photos must be from first couple of episodes but I have a feeling some of this maybe in later episodes..

      Well the north took six seasons to belive in WW and how many from Ned to Robb to others who had ignored this threats ..people can’t expect dany to start believing straight away either ( but of course one would think if anyone who believes in the WW it will be Dany because she has faced the realms of magic that only bran can match )

      I don’t think jon will feel any different in how he sees dany even when the parentage is revealed and I don’t think it will be out of character for him either ..Sean.c and wimsey have gone over this much better than me..
      Let’s Just agree to disagree here and wait till the show does this..

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    49. cuddlycrow:
      If Ayra is indeed afraid, I can only think it being Jaqen, No One. I just don’t think that story line is completely over. It could be, but…

      She might indeed be fearful had Jaqen appeared, though I think if he were truly a threat to her he’d be wearing a face. I concur with Clob and Wolfish that this expression is probably not fear. FWIW, in S2-6 at least three times at the slightest hint of potential trouble, Arya has immediately wrapped her hand around a sword hilt. Here her hands are in a relaxed clasp. Her expression could be mild apprehension, though I think it’s intense interest, a bit of surprise (slightly lifted left eyebrow) plus mixed emotions including love, probably for her family (tearful eyes). I still think someone brings the news of Jon’s victory, but I agree she might be hearing a song. I just hope it is about the North finally remembering rather than the mysterious death of Walder Frey! That would be awkward!

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    50. kathy: I think the people shipping incest between Jon and Dany says more about their own lack of morals or perhaps their own shallow gene pool than the shows.

      Or it means that they’ve been paying attention to:
      1) the moralities developed for Westerosi (which, believe it or not, do not match your own);
      2) the development and evolution of Jon and Daenerys as fictional characters.

      Remember, definitions of incest vary enormously under different morality systems. In Westeros, incest means brother-sister or parent-offspring. Aunt-nephew would not be considered incest.

      There is no such thing as universal morality: and the moralities that humans create reflect the world around them heavily. There have been several notable comparative religion studies documenting this. Everybody (and pretty much every deed) is immoral given some morality system.

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    51. Geralt of Rivia:
      Wimsey,

      Jon and Sansa won’t be considered incestous or Jon and Arya. But it will be to Jon and most certainly show version of him, for Daenerys maybe not. Show never adressed it and she was plainly uncomfortable by Viserys and his creepy behaviour towards her. In the books she expressed her opinion of how she would marry Aegon, if he was stil alive.

      Whether it is Daenerys, Sansa or Arya. People like to act like won’t be a big deal, it will be. Do I expect to break up with anyone over that? Probably not, even if he should.

      At the start of the season Jaime will be in love with Cersei but as things move on, he might not be due to her actions. It could remind him of Aerys II very clearly and be disturbing to him. Doubt he’d want to kill her next season but seeing her descending into madness might be interesting for his thoughts and what to do next. She’s quite capable burning everybody in King’s Landing like Aerys II intended to.

      while I agree Arya and Sansa could be “acceptable” in show, it would ONLY be AFTER Jon learns the truth about who he is. Anything before that would be “icky” to Jon because they would still consider themselves “siblings” and Jon isnt gonna marry his little sister.

      Jon and Dany on the other hand have never met, and when they do will not be aware of their “history”. Their meeting and falling in love has been hinted at very heavily. I am not saying it will be happy ever after, or that there wont be DRAMAS when they learn the truth about Jons parentage but for at least a period of time they will be on each other like bread and butter and I will be swooning every minute of it 😉

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    52. Stark RAven’ Rad: She might indeed be fearful had Jaqen appeared, though I think if he were truly a threat to her he’d be wearing a face

      Jaqen walking into the room would not get the attention of the two men behind Arya. Whatever has her attention is something that is generally attention-getting: it is not something or someone uniquely important to Arya.

      Now, this is not to say that what they see is not frightening to Arya. It could be that, or it could be amusing or it could be just surprising: that particular look goes with many, many different expressions. Single shots only rarely can communicate emotions.

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    53. Geralt of Rivia: Do I expect them to end any potential relationship based on this, probably not. Show or books will push him into Targaryen ways … it’s inevitable.

      Not only do I not think that this is inevitable, I think that it’s almost impossible. Jon is Ned Stark’s son, regardless of who provided the actual sperm. Jon will spend his entire life asking himself: “What would Ned Stark do in this situation?” He knows too little of the Targaryens to use them as role-models.

      Indeed, I will bet my bottom dollar that when the “crunch” decisions are being made, what Ned Stark did to protect one little boy that was not even Ned’s son is going to be the single most influential “relation” factor for Jon. I think that when Daeny realizes the “why” of what Rhaegar did, then it will have a similar effect. This is a story, after all: and stories are created by the parallels in how the main protagonists evolve.

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    54. dragonbringer,

      Why not?

      Spoilers

      Did you saw spoilery videos from next season? Daenerys was acting very emotionally upon Jorah’s departure with others. She won’t run into his arms when she sees him … but certainly won’t be wearing a dissapointed face. Jorah’s return is later on in the season and these stills have been rarely from the later stags of the season. Going by the history of Game of Throns promoting campaign.

      Of course you dislike for Dany to be in the position of being blind to the danger but she has seen dragons, warlocks and other things. Tyrion would advise her not to dismiss Jon easily. Don’t think King in the North would go all the way to Dragonstone … if it was not a very important matter. Starks and Targaryens do not like each other very much after recent events – so it is a potentially risky scenario for Jon and yet he did that. What does that tell you?

      She might demand for him to come upon her arrival but Jon could easily refuse it and let her come in the winter conditions. If it was indeed a trap from him or just Jon caring about himself. Tyrion is the bridge here and hopefully he’ll knock some senses all around.

      This is a mentality of people shipping them. It won’t be a big deal, they’ll love each other until the end of days.

      Spoilers

      Why do you think Jon has to travel a lot and not to see Bran, why he has to bond and potentially knock her up? Things will go south to a certain point but books and mostly show will push him to basically ignore it. This is my fear and it goes in certain instances against his character. Jon sleeping with his own family, no matter growing up or not is not the he’d do it. Not the show version of our moody bastard.

      It will end probably with a wedding, eternal love and babies. Jon leigitimized as a Targaryen. I made my peace with it.

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    55. Clob,

      I too am a Maisiephile, i.e. a fan of the Many-Faced Goddess.

      I don’t detect any fear or concern on Arya’s face. Her hands are folded in front of her; if she was the least bit apprehensive, her hand would already be on Needle.

      I think back to S4e1, “Two Swords”, and promo shot a few months earlier: the minute Polliver turns around and says the first three words, “I know you…” but before he finishes his sentence with “You’re the Hound”, Arya’s hand has already reached back to grab the hilt of Sandor’s sword.

      Also, in S4e10 (Brienne + Pod encounter Arya + The Hound), Maisie’s changing expressions convey her emotions: initially, relaxed and convivial when comparing sword names and upbringings with an apparent nonconformist female warrior/kindred spirit… But as soon as Sandor points out that Brienne’s got a sword with Lannister gold, Arya’s expression shows caution and concern.

      In the photograph, I see none of those facial expressions or body language that would suggest Arya is in “fear” of anything. She seems to be relaxed, and watching whatever it is the guys behind her are looking at. Her hands are folded comfortably in front of her, not clenched tight or reaching down.

      (But darn it! I still can’t make out what’s in front of her. At first it looked like an axe head…and my mind flashed to Arya + Sandor inevitable reunion foreshadowed in S5 and S6.)

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    56. Wimsey,

      By Targaryen ways. If Jon ends up as the King, It has to be as a Targaryen. Stark name has no significance South of the Neck. Riding a dragon is potentially a certain trait known to = Targaryens. If he willingly sleeps with his own family member = Targaryen way. I do not judge them but it is what it is.

      Jon is different to Ned in many ways. In fact, Jon has tree parents at this point but don’t easily dismiss Lyanna and Rhaegar. They might be only names, but pretty important to him … he’ll want to know more about them and possibly to embrace his heritage. He has connections to Targaryens Aemon, potentially Daenerys. ¨
      We had Jon becoming defacto a Stark in all but his name last season, next seasons Targaryen? How many times people on the show, the books or Jon himself is being reminded … he’s not a Stark. The end for him is to be a Targaryen in many ways. Do I like it? No, but this is where story is seemingly heading.

      Spoilers

      There is a apparently a line from Jon for him to rule differently than Ned ever did.

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    57. Would the inn not be the Inn at the crossroads which has had some famous meetings along the years? Also has anyone been able to go right into the reflection in Arya’s eye? It couldn’t be Jon could it? One going North the other South. I don’t see a look of fear on her face I see anticipation and Jon’s face breaks my heart.

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    58. Stark RAven’ Rad,

      I just read your interpretation of the Arya picture after I posted mine a few minutes ago. It looks like we independently came to the same conclusions (eg at the first sign of danger, Arya would have her hand on a sword).

      Therefore, I pronounce our interpretations to be the correct ones, with a < 5% margin of error.

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    59. Arya: She didn’t look anything to me; all I could say is that she’s not in the middle of a laughing or crying jag. That look could be followed with fear, with a smile, with a yawn…anything.

      As for her meeting someone: I’ll guess Sandor; they’re obviously going to meet sooner than later. What I’m most hoping from her story is an explanation of the Faceless Men and their interest in her and in Westeros.

      Sansa: I’m not sure if she looks as if she’s had it with Littlefinger; last season ended with her giving some credence to his words. I’d say she’s looking dissatisfied about something, but she has so many things to be annoyed by that it’s hard to know what it might be. May she be provided with speech to explain her motivation.

      Littlefinger: Along with Tywin, my favorite villain of the series. The man plotted and successfully destroyed Ned, created the War of the Five Kings, defeated the Baratheons. Even Tywin played to his tune. Knock on wood they don’t let him go down idiotically.

      Jaime and Cersei: I adore both of these characters, and the actors playing them. Last season ended with Jaime’s double take on Cersei; he’s just starting to realize that she’s going places he’s unwilling to go. Since the show Cersei is (happily) not the one-dimensional villain the novel Cersei is, it makes sense for their break to take longer.

      Lyanna: Here’s to hoping they don’t reduce her to an Inspirational Speech Giver. Oy.

      Tyrion: Still looking like Dany’s worshipful adviser. May someone remember that Tyrion once had a clever mind, that he is the one Lannister sibling who is most like Tywin.

      Jon, Dany, incest: Not incest in Westeros. I think Jon will be more shocked to find out that she’s his aunt as that means Ned isn’t his daddy than to find out he had sex with his aunt.

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    60. I agree that Sansa’s wig is absolutely horrendous. In the side view the picture was taken from, it not only makes her face look chubby, but also her whole head overly large and misshapen. You’d think they would at least try to make as much of an effort as they have with Daenerys’ and Melisandre’s.

      Also agree that Varys is in Dragonstone. You can see the distinctive striation of the ‘flysch’ rock behind him.

      Phoenix,
      Greetings, name-sibling! 🙂

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    61. The only thing better than GOT promo pics is a Watchers On The Wall breakdown of GOT promo pics! (Or of course a new episode.)

      And speaking of Littlefinger, doesn’t anyone ever notice he never joins in on the “King of the North!” chants and just stands there with his back to the wall looking all shifty-eyed and silently but obviously throwing shade on everyone?

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    62. Wimsey,

      Yeah, I kinda thought the same about 3ER and Bran. Specifically, 3ER knew that at some point in the past Wylis had to become Hodor. So, once Einstein Bran decided to take a solo trip and inadvertently caused the 3ER cave shields to drop, the 3ER knew it was time to take Bran back in time to Winterfell to fry Wylis’s brain and turn him into Hodor.

      That’s why when “Avatar Bran” in the past hears Meera’s faint voice echoing from the future pleading with him to warg into Hodor, the 3ER tells Bran: “Listen to your friend.”

      (At that critical juncture, 3ER was not simply taking Bran on a sightseeing tour back to Bran’s family home in the past. The visit was for the express purpose of “creating” Hodor. )

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    63. Ten Bears,

      I don’t necessarily think Arya would immediately go for her sword – it could be a person she would perceive as a threat but who may not recognize her. In that case going for her sword would draw unwanted attention to herself, and someone who spent time training to be a faceless assassin would know how to blend into the background.

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    64. Vanessa,

      What I meant was that in similar situations, Arya covertly moves her hand to be ready to draw a sword without drawing attention to herself (eg S4e1).

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    65. Missandei’s pin is from costume designer Michele Clapton’s Dany-inspired high end jewelry line from season 7. It’s like just self-promotion, since many of those items had little collectible value upon release.

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    66. I don’t see fear on Arya’s face in that shot, either. Wariness, perhaps; but Arya has learned always to be wary. It’s a big part of why she’s still alive. (Also, hypervigilance is a common symptom of PTSD.)

      She could just as easily be about to break into a grin upon recognizing Hot Pie. At present, I’m leaning toward the ‘Ed Sheeran cameo/song about KitN’ hypothesis.

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    67. Geralt of Rivia,

      But Jon has attained his titles based on merit and accomplishments, not based on family name.

      Plus, in S1 he forged a good relationship with Lord Tyrion (nka Hand of the Queen to Daeny) based on an friendship and respect, not because of family names or titles. Jon started out insulting Tyrion for calling him a bastard, but by the time they said their farewells (“sorry to see you leave”), he trusted and confided in him.

      I think that foundation of mutual respect, created without ulterior motives back in S1, will benefit them both.

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    68. Petyr Baelish looks about ten years older in that shot (also like he has no arms). Wonder what’s worrying him – the ascendancy of Jon? Finding out that the Hound is alive and headed Sansa’s way with incriminating information?

      Sansa just looks stern and cold to me there.

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    69. Geralt of Rivia,

      My objection to this whole line of thinking is that there is no such thing as “Targaryen” or “Stark” or whatever. Yes, sociobiology is not without merit. However, this is a novel: and in novels, it’s all about how the main characters evolve. Jon is not going to suddenly have “Targaryen genes” kick into play that will radically alter his behavior. This would be no different from the idea that Jon was going to be burned and then arise from the ashes as Azor Ahai: as stories come from the step-by-step “anagenetic” change of a character, this sort of metamorphosis would basically toss the story out the window!

      Now, will Jon do things differently from what Ned did? Almost certainly: and in big part because of Ned, because Jon will know some of the mistakes that Ned made. Ned was, after all, to narrow in his morality (or “honor” as Ned called it): and it got Ned killed in the end. Jon, on the other hand, already has been forced into major moral conflicts, and he’s worked out morally gray solutions on his own. Somewhat ironically, Jon’s betrayal of his vows (with Ygritte and then by letting the Wildlings into Westeros) stem in large part to his life-long quest to be worthy of being Ned’s son rather than Ned’s bastard. (And one could see Ned slowly and somewhat reluctantly saying “Those deeds…. were not entirely without honor.”)

      And this is where Jon is heading. There are going to be some painful decisions coming up, particularly once Jon & others (including us!) learn the whole truth about the White Walkers. The man making those decisions is going to be in large part a consequence of the boy trying to earn Ned Stark’s esteem.

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    70. Whoever it is that Arya is staring at, the men sitting behind her appear to be just as impressed by him or her as she is. So my guess is Sandor “I am no knight” Clegane.

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    71. While still stuck on the Arya picture…

      IF we agree that she’s most likely at an inn then I have additional thoughts. Now I realize that in terms of writing for the show they may not be too concerned about exact locations and directions. However, there is a chance that they are or can be. What I’m getting at is that the Inn at the Crossroads is south of The Twins.

      On the show they have not shown an inn north of The Twins between there and Winterfell. That is except for the brothel/inn where Theon and Tyrion had relations with Ros in season one. That place was supposedly very close to Winterfell, which in the books would be right outside the gates in Winter town. I don’t believe they’ve had a ‘normal’ scene at an inn supposedly right outside Winterfell.

      With that in mind, for Maisie to be at an inn previously on the show it’s likely to be the Inn at the Crossroads. If they were to make note of direction then she’d be heading south from The Twins, halfway to King’s Landing. If we think and/or believe that she does go to Winterfell this season then it’s possible that her plans of heading south (KL) change upon hearing news along the way and turns for home… Just a bit of brainstorming.

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    72. I don’t see a family tree in the book that Gilly is reading. I just see a vine motif. Though why a book would be written in that format, with so much empty space at the bottom of each page just for decoration, seems oddly wasteful of parchment or paper, which would have been costly.

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    73. Stark RAven’ Rad: Here her hands are in a relaxed clasp.

      The two men behind her also appear to be just looking and sitting, too. Neither appears to be rising. That’s important because you have to stand to draw (or while drawing) a sword.

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    74. I dont want Jon and Dany together, I just dont want an artificial storyline for these characters just because must of the fans want them together, so far i´ve liked both their journeys on the show and I will like to see them as allies, eventually finding out they are related, that they are family, and if you think about its the only family Dany has left, which is sad and it will be very touching and emotional to see if they found out the are family.

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    75. Clob: in terms of writing for the show they may not be too concerned about exact locations and directions. However, there is a chance that they are or can be. What I’m getting at is that the Inn at the Crossroads is south of The Twins.

      On the show they have not shown an inn north of The Twins between there and Winterfell.

      You’re probably right, although when it comes to the relative orientation of sites in the “middle” of Westeros, I tend to get easily muddled. And I own the big fancy map package! So I imagine that show-only fans have even less of a clear sense of where things are in the area where the Riverlands, the Vale and the Crownlands come together.

      It would certainly be good for the drama if Arya found out something at whatever inn that is that changed her mind about where to go. What I seriously question is why she would pick King’s Landing as her initial destination, as I don’t put much stock in the idea that trying to get close enough to Cersei to kill her would be one of her top priorities at this point.

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    76. Clob,

      Oh that would be so good.Like her being focused on revenge and killing Cersei and The Mountain but then hearing that Jon is king and that her family is back at Winterfell and changing her mind.That would fit so well with her character.I hope it happens.

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    77. Interesting theory that Arya is headed south, but then hears info about the Starks taking back Winterhell, so she decides to head north instead.

      However, my only issue with this theory is that she already said last season that “I’m Arya Stark and I’m going home”.

      Sounds like she already had her sights set on Winterhell to begin with.

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    78. Ann,

      I agree to the sentiment… I’d hate if they fall in love with each other and suddenly GoT becomes a RomCom. I would not object, however, if Jon and Dany enter into an alliance which includes a loveless marriage.

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    79. A Dornish Tyrell,

      Re: loveless marriage

      Would this include an heir IYO? Is an heir important for the next Ruler(s)? Maybe, Jon and Dany would push for city-states with more representation in King’s Landing to mitigate future power vacuums? That (more power to the regions/less to IT) doesn’t seem like Dany’s MO.

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    80. Clob,

      Carole H,

      Wouldn’t it be great if you both are right and that it’s Jon that Arya is seeing and that he convinces her to go to Winterfell instead of Kings Landing so that she can keep an eye on the Littlefinger/Sansa situation? As for why the men behind her turn to look as well, someone might have mentioned that the KITN just walked in the room.

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    81. Ann: I just dont want an artificial storyline for these characters just because must of the fans want them together,

      All storylines are artificial: that’s a big difference between “story” and “history.” Moreover, why in the world would you believe that GRRM or B&W write any of this stuff based on what fans want? Given the incredibly strong parallelisms between Jon & Daeny, and even given some of the vague foreshadowings, I suspect that this has been in the cards from the beginning.

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    82. mmk,

      If Arya was seeing Jon in that picture, she’d be jumping into his arms. And sobbing. Just like the viewers. ??

      Go back and watch the scene in S1e2 when they last saw each other, and tell me what you think.

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    83. Phoenix,

      Would this be the same Jon who was ready to bang his half-sister once he found out she was “only” his cousin in the original outline?

      kathy,

      Interesting theory. While I personally don’t ship Jon/Dany, I do heavily ship hyperbolic moralistic fan outrage with schadenfreude. And I’m feeling pretty confident about that ship becoming canon this year.

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    84. Tycho Nestoris,

      That’s an interesting question… I’m afraid we will see very little of the frozen post-apocalyptic Westeros. My guess is that the survivors will have to figure out how to rebuild society and new forms of governance. Therefore an heir could or could not be relevant.

      What I meant with “an alliance with a loveless marriage between Dany and Jon” is that, if/when they meet, I assume there will have to be negotiations similar to the one Yara and Dany had (and even though Yara never demanded, she was up for anything really…) 🙂

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    85. Mr Derp: However, my only issue with this theory is that she already said last season that “I’m Arya Stark and I’m going home”.

      I guess my thoughts on that are that she’s already not gone directly Home by going to The Twins first. The last time we saw her she also wouldn’t have known yet that the Starks had retaken Winterfell. By her saying “going home” it would seem that also included taking care of some business first. As far as WE know she doesn’t know yet which of her family is alive, if any. That will be information we’ll have to see her receive.

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    86. Ann,

      I highly doubt that the writers will have Jon and Dany fall in love as a fan pleasing measure. If it happens on the show, it will have come from GRRM himself.

      I have never understood why the people who have no problems with friendships and other alliances have such a big problem with love. Two people being friends is okay, but love is somehow too cheesy or Disney. Love is as real and essential in any world as friendship, family or any other relationship.

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    87. If Jon and Dany get together, there’s really no purpose for it on the show other than to have some kind of heir for the next generation, but that’s just my opinion.

      It’s certainly possible that there will be no heirs by the end of the series, but if there is, who? Pretty much none of the main protagonists have children at this point. I can think of Sam and Gilly, but that’s it.

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    88. Wimsey,

      Jesus, come down! I see most of you want them together, It was just my opinion and point of view, I just don’t want them together romantically speaking! David and Dan have never disappointed me with the writing and story so far, and I just hope that will be the case next seasons.. a lot of other shows usually mess up all the characters with story lines that really don’t make sense at all at the end.. however I trust GOT will be the exception =)

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    89. Ten Bears:
      Geralt of Rivia,

      Plus, in S1 he forged a good relationship with Lord Tyrion (aka Hand of the Queen to Daeny) based on friendship and respect, not because of family names or titles. Jon started out insulting Tyrion for calling him a bastard, but by the time they said their farewells (“sorry to see you leave”), he trusted and confided in him.

      I would add that Tyrion will be arriving in Westeros with both Jon and Sansa predisposed to trust him: after all, Sansa’s last words to Ramsay before he raped her on their wedding night were something along the lines of “Lord Tyrion was always kind to me.”

      A part of Sansa’s journey that I have always appreciated is that she arrived in KL having dreamed of it her whole life, with visions of handsome knights and colorful silks filling her naïve little head. She left having been used and/or abused by nearly everyone she came in contact with outside of her own family, and other than the Stark men and their retainers, only two men ever protected her: Sandor and Tyrion, both seen as monsters by the world at large.

      I wonder if she has consciously come to that realization yet.

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    90. Wolfish,

      Ah, Sandor: The one who insists “I’m no knight”, yet is the only one who ventured out to rescue the damsel in distress. Poor guy is so damaged he couldn’t even graciously accept Sansa’s gratitude for saving her.

      Also… excellent point that the only non-Starks who tried to help her were two men thought of as monsters by the world at large.

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    91. Arya is leaning in, listening intently. Her hands are together resting on the table. She’s calm, but alert. I think she’s at an inn, and someone is speaking or addressing the patrons; Maybe word that Jon Snow has been named KITN. That would be my guess. Also, Sansa’s wig is not so bad. It’s only because we know that we’re preoccupied with it. But, she looks stone cold-hearted to me, not unlike her mother…a-hem.

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    92. Lulus Mum,

      Hi, once again. I have seen your comment on the previous thread and left my answer, but let’s continue our discussion here, if you are in the mood.

      Firannion,

      I don’t know how good your screen resolution is, but the diagram at the bottom looks nothing like a decoration/vine motif.

      As a medievist I work quite a lot with hand-written books and if my experience can be applicable in this case… Well, I’ll simply tell you what I see. The main text of the book is written calligraphically; the scrip is bold which means that the writer used a rather thick pen and high-quality black ink; the capital letters are written in red. Meanwhile, the diagram (or pattern) at the bottom was drawn using a very thin pen and a different kind of ink which looks more grey than black now. The inscriptions along the lines are not calligraphical and the handwriting looks differen: I think I can see digits 9 and 1 or 7 at the very bottom, and my conclusions about the handwriting are based on that. So, all in all it really looks like a rather typical bottom note/insription left by some later reader of the book, and not a decoration: decorations (marginals) share the style with the text and this is obviously not the case.

      Moreover, the structure of the pattern is very similar to a typical horizontal diagram of a family tree: there are lines and branches accompaignes with short textual and digital inscriptions which may represent names and numbers of children and/or generation. Again, it’s something rather typical. So, based on the fact that Targeryan lineage is the only lineage that is the matter of interest in this story, I guess that it’s a Targaryan family tree.

      As for why the show might be introducing it in such a way, the reason may be purely practical. It has to establish that the AA/PTWP will be a Targarian, right? In the books it is established through the wood-witch’s prophesy, but the show has skipped the wood-withc. Her revelation on Arya’s fate was given to Melisandre and the Targarian PTWP/AA reborn prophesy has to be conveyed in some other way too, otherwise it would be very hard to link AA to the Targarians. However, the AA legend and the Targaryan family tree on the same page may establish the required link rather effectively. It doesn’t matter really, who drew the family tree (it could have been some red priest or one of the Targaryans), but if we’ll see the AA legend/prophesy and the Targarian family tree on the same page, we will accept the link by default. And the same applies to Sam and Gilly. I guess that Sam will think that the prophesy applies to Dany: she is the last Targaryan; she has dragons; and she is landing in Westeros in the hour of the direst need. But Gilly will notice that Rhaegar had 3 children, not 2 and start wondering what happened to the third child. She will start asking questions; Sam will realize that he has no answers and that will stimulate further investigation which will eventually lead him to Jon Snow. At least, that’s how I imagine it. I may be wrong, of course.

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    93. Anne: a lot of other shows usually mess up all the characters with story lines that really don’t make sense at all at the end.. however I trust GOT will be the exception =)

      No matter what they do, there will be fans who complain that it does not make sense: fans have too many different (and often completely conflicting) views on the characters. Moreover, people have a bad habit of confusing “it does not make sense to me” with “this was senseless.”

      Wolfish: Sansa’s last words to Ramsay before he raped her on their wedding night were something along the lines of “Lord Tyrion was always kind to me.”

      One “stealth” development is that everybody who gets to know Tyrion comes to esteem him. This is also another strong parallelism between Jon & Daeny: both initially view Tyrion with hostility (and for good reasons!), yet both wind up praising him. They are not alone: as you note, Sansa has a positive opinion of him, and several secondary characters such as Varys also think well of him. Heck, even dragons like him: and not in the usual “tasty with ketchup” sort of way!

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    94. Wimsey:
      Heck, even dragons like him: and not in the usual “tasty with ketchup” sort of way!

      /bacon bits out nose
      /reaches for wine earlier than planned

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    95. kathy,

      I guess “incest shipping” of Jon with his aunt or one of his cousins is a pleasant distraction, but I don’t think GoT will devolve into “which lucky bachelorette is going to date Jon Snow?”

      I thought the endgame that’s been beautifully set up is:
      • Humankind is facing an existentialist threat – yet most people are laughing it off like it’s the Tooth Fairy;
      • The few people who take the threat seriously don’t yet have an effective way to fight it;
      • Not only that, but the enemy is doubly lethal: every allied soldier killed in battle immediately becomes an enemy soldier;
      • Nobody knows what the enemy wants – if anything – other than to exterminate the human race.

      Unless – and I HOPE this doesn’t come to pass – the fate of humanity rests on Jon Snow copulating with the right bachelorette*, I’m not sure how his sex life will be a significant focus of S7.

      * I will NOT be a happy camper if the show ends with a newborn baby as the future Azor Ahai/Prince that Was Promised.

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    96. Ten Bears,

      Yeah, I can’t wait until Saner Half watches that scene. (We’re up to S4, Ep1, so he gets to see Joffrey choke tonight!)

      Agreed on your previous comments. After all, GRRM promised us a “bittersweet” ending… and I, for one, will be quite vexed if Daenerys gets a child in the material world. It would cheapen the story for me.

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    97. Ten Bears:
      kathy,

      I don’t think GoT will devolve into “which lucky bachelorette is going to date Jon Snow?”

      Don’t worry. Tumblr will surely devolve into that. Jonerys vs Jonsa vs Jonarya: War of the Three Ships!

      Ditto on the baby. That would be lame and a waste of my time tbh.

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    98. Wolfish,

      Wait, you’re up to S4e1? Or e2? I thought Joffrey turns purple in e2.

      If you’re about to watch S4e1 with Saner Half tonight, please tell me you’re serving chicken for dinner.

      Or at the very least, deli sandwiches with those little plastic swords holding them together: then at just the right moment you can pull one out, look at it, and remark: “Fine little blade. Maybe I’ll pick my teeth with it.” ?

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    99. Ten Bears,

      Well, the fate of humanity does rest on Jon’s sexual life: it’s obvious that the lucky bachelorette* who just happens to have three dragons and a huge army will be more willing to join the only war that matters, if the KITN manages to win her affection. Jon absolutely must do his best and taking into account that he’s not a charmer type, I guess his clumsy courtesy will be hilarious to watch. Or on the contary, it may be frustrating and uneasy with the traditional gender roles being a bit reverse. I imagine a wibe of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. Anyway, Dany will be in the possition of power and it will be rather interesting to see how Jon is going to deal with that.

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    100. maria:

      Littlefinger: Along with Tywin, my favorite villain of the series. The man plotted and successfully destroyed Ned, created the War of the Five Kings, defeated the Baratheons. Even Tywin played to his tune. Knock on wood they don’t let him go down idiotically.

      THIS. Yes yes yes yes. I mean damn – the guy has actually gotten shit done. Shit I may not always like, but I have to admire his success. I don’t want a stupid end for him either.

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    101. Ten Bears,

      Yes, I served chicken with Ep1!!! We’ll be watching Ep2 tonight or tomorrow. I have an event to attend at the university, so it might be tomorrow. :/

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    102. Inga,

      Jon does not need in any shape or form to romantically seduce Dany to gain her allyship… He only needs to convince her (and if he fails, luckily Davos will be by his side.)

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    103. Maybe Jon isn’t the Song of Ice and Fire. Maybe he and Danny meet, have a kid and that kid is the “song”. I know, I know, it is unlikely seeming what Rhaegar says in the books about his child, but I just get carried away with petty theories

      Maybe Jon and Danny will die, but their “song” lives on as the bittersweet ending.

      Not gonna happen, but still, humour me…

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    104. Uddane,

      Is that Widows Wail that Jamie has stuck in his belt?

      As the consensus seems to be “yes,” I have a question: When they were melting down Ice, wasn’t the mold for what became Widow’s Wail (Joffrey’s) much shorter than the one which yielded Oathkeeper?

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    105. Eilidh,

      It actually Is a likely scenario, in the books both Dany and Jon lament that they wish they could hold their own child in their arms but believe they never will. All of Dany’s whole story line revolves around motherhood and her constantly thinking about it and since believing she will never have children thinking of the people she has freed as her children and her dragons. D&D stated Dany BELIEVES she can’t have children and in the books she bleeds at the end of the last book and tastes the same sweetness in her mouth as when the witch cursed her.
      So Dany having a child is a massive possibility though whether both parents survive and raise their child, only one survives or Tyrion or Sansa raise that child on their behalf due to both parents being dead is another matter entirely

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    106. Wolfish,

      Nikolaj is only an inch shorter than Gwendoline : ) And there’s something about Jaime’s machismo/pride that (at least in the past) would make him reluctant to carry a boy’s sword. Maybe we’re headed for a Widow’s Wail-Needle “Battle of the Little Swords.”

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    107. keltia,

      Point taken about heights (they really did make her look taller than that, maybe because Jaime was injured)… But I really hope there’s no Needle-vs.-Widow’s Wail battle! I’m still holding out hope that Jaime will come to his senses before allowing Cersei to destroy every last bit of decency he has left.

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    108. It’s not THAT much shorter than Oathkeeper. They’re both still called/considered long swords. WW isn’t a short sword or long dagger by any means. Oathkeeper has a long blade

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    109. A Dornish Tyrell,

      Speeking seriously, I do agree with you: Dany is a reasonable woman and Tyrion is primed to believe everything what Jon is going to say about the WW. However, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that Jon will think that the Mother of Dragons won’t take the threat seriously and that seducing her would be the safest way to get her and her dragons on his side. Moreover, Jon will be fully aware that the Mother of Dragons is looking for an eligible bacheloor and understand how favorable such mariage would be to the North. So, I guess he will decide that charming Dany is his duty, but on the other hand I can see him higly highly frustrated about this, because charming a women to get hold on her posessions is unhonorable. So, if he decides to marry Dany “for the sake of the realm”, he will also assume that loving her is his duty, just like Ned assumed that loving Cat was his duty after marrying her. In other words, there won’t be love that “just happens”, it will develop step by step out of mutual respect, shared interests and values, and partly out of necessity. It may be similar to what Dany had with Khal Drogo, only this time she will be in the position of power.

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    110. Inga: However, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that Jon will think that the Mother of Dragons won’t take the threat seriously and that seducing her would be the safest way to get her and her dragons on his side.

      If Jon had been developed as a womanizer and/or someone who knew that women could not say “no” to him, then this would seem possible. However, that hasn’t happened, and at this point, it’s too late to develop this side of Jon. (Character “guns” need to be hung just as much as do plot “guns”!)

      I think that it’s going to be far simpler than this. Good-looking, charismatic, socially-conscious girl suffering from pangs of past-heartache and burdens of familial expectation meet good-looking, charismatic, socially-conscious boy suffering from pangs of past-heartache and burdens of familial expectation. That is a script that writes itself: the two of them will be finishing each other’s sentences within 15 minutes.

      Have RomComs done it? Sure. So have serious romances. And so have serious stories that just had a romantic angle. Remember, they are at war: and war inflames passions; for example, WWI & WWII inspired great romances in reality as well as on literature or on screen. But “causes” also inspire boy-girl romance, as causes are inherently romantic in the classic sense of the word.

      Now, there is the issue of will anybody believe Jon about the Walkers. However, that still has to be addressed for the North: it was pretty clear at the conclusion of last season that a lot of Northerners were not aware of this problem.

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    111. Pigeon: Shit I may not always like, but I have to admire his success. I don’t want a stupid end for him either.

      And.. *sniff*… he’s done it all for love…. Seriously, at this point, I think that LF is genuinely in love with Sansa. I think that it’s evolved in a weird fashion from his love for Cat, which would seem a bit weird and gross, but Westeros clearly is a world where 40 years old men frequently marry 18-year old women, so we cannot really hold that against him.

      What will be interesting is how LF reacts to Daenerys. He seems to have totally left her out of his plans!

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    112. The “possibility” that “Jon will think the Mother of Dragons won’t take the threat seriously and that seducing her would be the safest way to get her and her dragons on his side” ?
      —————-

      Oh no. Please, no.
      Jon has ascended to where he is now because of his valor and decency. Not because he’s a pretty boy who can seduce women. That would cheapen his character.

      If anything, he’s accomplished what he has in spite of his looks, not because of them. (It’s been a running gag that he’s just a “pretty face” – see Craster, Orell.)

      Like Tormund said in “Hardhome”, 5×8:

      Karsi: You vouch for this man, Tormund?

      Tormund: He’s prettier than both my daughters, but he knows how to fight. He’s young, but he knows how to lead.

      If the show is gonna go the “seduction to save the world” route, I’d rather they go full on “She’s All That” mode and have Arya get a makeover, with makeup, new hairdo and slinky dress and descend the stairs while Sixpence None the Richer (or Ed Sheeran) plays in the background, and everyone’s jaws drop when they witness the transformation. Then Arya 2.0 could entice the Night King and LIttlefinger to their dooms.

      The End.

      (Yeah. I know this is silly, but Maisie Williams could pull it off.)

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    113. Wimsey: And.. *sniff*… he’s done it all for love….Seriously, at this point, I think that LF is genuinely in love with Sansa.I think that it’s evolved in a weird fashion from his love for Cat, which would seem a bit weird and gross, but Westeros clearly is a world where 40 years old men frequently marry 18-year old women, so we cannot really hold that against him.

      What will be interesting is how LF reacts to Daenerys.He seems to have totally left her out of his plans!

      That may be true, and I think it would be despite his own intentions. I think Sansa began as being useful to advance his plans, a piece in his game. I never saw him loving anyone but Cat (or was it really just the idea of Cat?) But you could be right. His ‘pretty picture’ seemed a bit more…genuine?

      Oh I can just see his expression regarding Daenerys – I’m guessing it’ll start with complete “Oh wtf….”

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    114. maria,

      Oh, I hope they “let [Littlefinger] go down idiotically.”

      Like maybe from an infected cut from twirling his Snidely Whiplash mustache. Or falling off a ladduhh and dying from bleeding on the brain. Or
      Sansa slicing his throat while saying “I told you not to trust me.” Or one of the birds he got for Robyn prying open its cage door and pecking his eyes out and tearing out his throat.

      He does not deserve a glorious end.

      Needless to say, I don’t like his character or his “plans.” Someone should’ve snuffed him out by now. (Yes, I’m looking at you Sansa.)

      The S7 promo picture of Lyanna Mormont reminded me how satisfying it was when his latest “plan” to take control of the North by manipulating Sansa almost succeeded, but was thwarted by…. the 10 year-old Lady of Bear Island:

      (From S6e10):

      LF to Sansa:
      “Who should the North rally behind?
      A trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn Stark born here at Winterfell, or a motherless bastard born in the south?”
      ****
      Lyanna Mormont: “I don’t care if he’s a bastard. Ned Stark’s blood runs through his veins. He’s my king, from this day until his last day!”

      (Northern lords follow suit, rally around the “motherless bastard” and declare him King in the North, while LF pouts in the corner.)

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    115. Pigeon,

      Nah. LF does not “love” Sansa. If you love a girl you cherish her and protect her virtue. You certainly don’t sell her to some stranger to be defiled, no matter what the price.
      He said at the outset: his intention is to f-ck the Starks. He’s not motivated by “love.”

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    116. Inga,

      All the things that you’ve mentioned, I see them more in Dany rather than in Jon. She knows she will have to marry someone for political reason in order to gain support from Westerosi nobility. That’s why she left Daario behind (as Tyrion told her, he is a liability.) At any rate, I see her proposing a marriage allience to this new King in the North (like she did with Hizdar.) Jon is much more concerned with the inminent war to put much effort in his pick-up artistry (which is next to nill.)
      I agree with you, however, that if they ever get married, he’ll be an more than honourable husband. Same for her. They might have an Ned/Cat-like marriage (minus that lie.)

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    117. Ten Bears,

      Pigeon,

      I do think LF loves Sansa like he also loved Catelyn but it’s not a happy healthy kind of love, he loves himself more and his love for them is twisted. Even though he loved Catelyn his whole life he still helped put the events in place that killed the man she loved breaking her heart, if he had a healthy love for her he would of protected Ned but he didn’t.
      So while I think LF does love Sansa, it’s not in the way any girl would want to be loved.

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    118. Wimsey,

      It goes without saying that LF is in love with the power that Sansa represents, and is still in love, or what passes for love in his warped mind, with her mother. I’m hoping the writers remember, and I’m sure they will, that the one character on the show who truly loves Sansa in a romantic way is The Hound. Where they take that, if they choose to, and they’d be fools not to, could be quite interesting (and quite violent and bloody because hey it’s A Game of Thrones).

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    119. Caption to the Sam and Gilly pic: “Sam, it’s says here that we’re just characters in a series of books written by a chubby football fan from New Jersey. What’s a football?”

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    120. Mel:
      Ten Bears,

      Pigeon,

      I do think LF loves Sansa like he also loved Catelyn but it’s not a happy healthy kind of love, he loves himself more and his love for them is twisted. Even though he loved Catelyn his whole life he still helped put the events in place that killed the man she loved breaking her heart, if he had a healthy love for her he would of protected Ned but he didn’t.
      So while I think LF does love Sansa, it’s not in the way any girl would want to be loved.

      That’s pretty much how I’ve thought of it – and I don’t know if he ‘loved’ Cat at all or was simply obsessed with someone he couldn’t get.

      Ten Bears:
      maria,

      Or Sansa slicing his throat while saying “I told you not to trust me.”

      Nah. You should know by now that Sansa will never get her pretty little hands dirty. She prefers people to do it for her and swear oaths to her and rescue her. She won’t kill him. Just like she couldn’t kill Ramsay. Oh, she very well may order someone else to do it. If Cersei has taught her anything, it’s how to smirk while others do her bidding. 🙂

      And that’s all fine and good, isn’t it? I can’t stand her, but not everyone in the story can be a fighter in the physical sense.

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    121. Mel:
      Ten Bears,

      Pigeon,

      I do think LF loves Sansa like he also loved Catelyn but it’s not a happy healthy kind of love, he loves himself more and his love for them is twisted. Even though he loved Catelyn his whole life he still helped put the events in place that killed the man she loved breaking her heart, if he had a healthy love for her he would of protected Ned but he didn’t.
      So while I think LF does love Sansa, it’s not in the way any girl would want to be loved.

      That’s pretty much how I’ve thought of it – and I don’t know if he ‘loved’ Cat at all or was simply obsessed with someone he couldn’t get.

      Ten Bears:
      maria,

      Or Sansa slicing his throat while saying “I told you not to trust me.”

      Nah. You should know by now that Sansa will never get her pretty little hands dirty. She prefers people to do it for her and swear oaths to her and rescue her. She won’t kill him. Just like she couldn’t kill Ramsay. Oh, she very well may order someone else to do it. If Cersei has taught her anything, it’s how to smirk while others do her bidding. ?

      And that’s all fine and good, isn’t it? I can’t stand her, but not everyone in the story can be a fighter in the physical sense.

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    122. Catspaw Assassin:
      Wimsey,

      It goes without saying that LF is in love with the power that Sansa represents, and is still in love, or what passes for love in his warped mind, with her mother.I’m hoping the writers remember, and I’m sure they will, that the one character on the show who truly loves Sansa in a romantic way is The Hound. Where they take that, if they choose to, and they’d be fools not to, could be quite interesting (and quite violent and bloody because hey it’s A Game of Thrones).

      Considering how creeped out Rory McCann was by the mention of anything of the sort, I wouldn’t count on it. Remember too, Sansa still values status.

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    123. Pigeon: Considering how creeped out Rory McCann was by the mention of anything of the sort, I wouldn’t count on it. Remember too, Sansa still values status.

      I wasn’t thinking about her nearly as much as I was thinking about El Hounderooni (there, I said it, it is now canon!). I just want the big guy to go out in a way that makes him happy, like protecting the nitwit redhead of his dreams. Dying whilst fighting alongside Arya would also be cool, but not as resonant.

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    124. Catspaw Assassin: It goes without saying that LF is in love with the power that Sansa represents, and is still in love, or what passes for love in his warped mind, with her mother.

      I have to agree with this.

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    125. Ten Bears: “Who should the North rally behind?
      A trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn Stark born here at Winterfell, or a motherless bastard born in the south?

      LF, like most southerners, does not really understand the North. One thing that comes up frequently on the show and in the books is that people in the South know little of what happens in the North, and tend to dismiss Northerners as borderline savages. There is a fan-fiction that LF has spies everywhere and is almost omniscient: but neither the books nor the show provide any real support for that; LF is well-informed about Kings Landing because of his brothels, but he’s in the dark where the North is concerned. I think that we’ll see that the same is true where Daeny is concerned.

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    126. A Dornish Tyrell: I have to agree with this.

      Just once I’d like to hear my wife say those words. Then again she has no interest in the show, which might explain how we’ve been together for over 35 years. The cliché is absolutely true — opposites do attract. 😉

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    127. Caption to the photo of Jon Snow: “No, I am not grabbing my nads. It just so happens that I’m passing a kidney stone and am not grabbing my nads. Okay, maybe just a little. Look, I miss Ygritte, okay? Leave me alone!!”

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    128. Pigeon: I don’t know if he ‘loved’ Cat at all or was simply obsessed with someone he couldn’t get.

      This rings true for me. What doesn’t, really, is the concept that a proud, ambitious man like Petyr, once publicly humiliated, would have gone on carrying a torch for Cat for years afterward. His wanting to punish the Starks seems in keeping with his level of emotional development. But it would seem more in character for him to have persuaded himself – not too long after the duel with Brandon, and especially once his fortunes in the world started to rise exponentially – that Cat was unworthy of a man like him; that he’d been ‘slumming’ because he hadn’t known any better. I could see him setting his sights ‘higher’: trying to seduce Cersei, perhaps, or aiming for a match with Margaery. And once Dany showed up on the shores of Westeros, he’d set his cap for her. Whatever would enhance his status, as compensation for the stinging loss of face he’d suffered by throwing himself at Cat and being spurned.

      But that’s not quite the character who was written, so I have to take GRRM’s word for what Littlefinger would have done!

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    129. Catspaw Assassin: I wasn’t thinking about her nearly as much as I was thinking about El Hounderooni (there, I said it, it is now canon!). I just want the big guy to go out in a way that makes him happy, like protecting the nitwit redhead of his dreams. Dying whilst fighting alongside Arya would also be cool, but not as resonant.

      I always thought that he and Brienne would be a fantastic and hilarious pair – Oh the bickering! He with begrudging admiration that she almost killed him, and she with that exasperated affection. Unfortunately, Brienne has too many contenders for her affection already…..

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    130. I haven’t read all the comments but what do you think Team Targ are looking at it their group photo? And do you think Arya might cross paths with Hot Pie at that Inn?

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    131. Jack Bauer 24,

      For what it’s worth, my best friend has been a member of the Writer’s Guild for 15 years (which is nothing in “writer’s years” — according to him the average age of guild members is around 300 years) tells me that he doesn’t think there will be a strike. And he wants to strike.

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    132. keltia:
      Wolfish,

      Nikolaj is only an inch shorter than Gwendoline : ) Maybe we’re headed for a Widow’s Wail-Needle “Battle of the Little Swords.”

      LOL! That would be a first for television! Has any other series shown two right-handed stars fight a sword duel left-handed? Nikolaj has the reach on Maisie, but after six years she’s acquired some lefty agility and experience!

      Wimsey: And.. *sniff*… he’s done it all for love….Seriously, at this point, I think that LF is genuinely in love with Sansa.I think that it’s evolved in a weird fashion from his love for Cat….

      Wimsey, you are our Philospher King, and I tremble to disagree with you. But I concur with Ten Bears that Baelish loves only Baelish. As he’s repeatedly proclaimed, he wants everything. He has some warmth for Sansa and probably longs to shag her silly, some of which does indeed stem from his obsession with Cat. And with destroying the family that nearly killed him, his pride, and his love dream. Now Cat’s favorite daughter is a building block of his Chaotic gamble to gain the IT, but he had to sell her to Ramsay hoping it would produce the chaos he needed. Joffrey had said everyone was his to torment. . LF believes everyone is his to use. He has a plan B: use Cersei’s yearning for Sansa’s head on a spike and gain his reward once more from the Lions. Perhaps he even plans to woo Cersei. And Plan C or D? If the theory that Sansa is playing him is true and his Winterfell scheming goes pear-shaped, he won’t hesitate to have her killed. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The littlefinger knows.

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    133. Pigeon: I always thought that he and Brienne would be a fantastic and hilarious pair – Oh the bickering! He with begrudging admiration that she almost killed him, and she with that exasperated affection. Unfortunately, Brienne has too many contenders for her affection already…..

      Kinkiest The Honeymooners fan fic ever! 😉

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    134. Catspaw Assassin:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      For what it’s worth, my best friend has been a member of the Writer’s Guild for 15 years (which is nothing in “writer’s years” — according to him the average age of guild members is around 300 years) tells me that he doesn’t think there will be a strike. And he wants to strike.

      What’s scary though is that the vote to strike will be May 1st and if a deal isn’t reached, writers will literally walk on May 2nd. A lot of showrunners also produce as well as write…like Benioff and Weiss, so even though Season 7 has been written and filmed they are still in production. They can walk come May 2nd and Season 7 delayed. The last writers strike lasted over 3 months. They would also stop writing Season 8 scripts during this time.

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    135. Ten Bears: maria

      I’m not hoping for a “glorious” end for Littlefinger, just one that works with who he is. As an example, see Tywin’s death which was anything but glorious, but also absolutely fitting.

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    136. Pigeon,

      I wouldn’t count on it either. The time to foreshadow any Sandor-Sansa hookup was in S6e2, but Brienne’s conspicuous omission of Sandor’s name (just telling Sansa Arya was with “a man”) suggested to me that the SanSan brigade will be disappointed.

      By contrast, scenes with Jaqen and the Waif in S5 and S6 signaled that Arya has unresolved emotional business with Sandor.

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    137. Stark Raven’ Rad:
      He has a plan B: use Cersei’syearning for Sansa’s head on a spike and gain his reward once more from the Lions.

      He really doesn’t have that anymore (to the extent that he ever had it in the first place; the Valemen wouldn’t have gone along with that even had he tried it, so it would have cost him his power base). As he himself noted, Cersei now knows he stabbed her in the back. That bridge is thoroughly burned.

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    138. Ten Bears,

      Writers who are also producers are supposed to stop working in that capacity as well (though whether they actually do varies, so it would depend on how committed the showrunners are to their union).

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    139. Wimsey,

      A Dornish Tyrell,

      I would disagree about the hanged guns. The gun that Dany is looking for political marriage has definitely been hanged. The gun that deep in her heart she longs for true love and that it makes her relationship with men frustrated has been hanged as well: she treated Hizdahr like shit, she treated Daario like shit, and I don’t expect her to treat Jon any better in the beginning. Well, maybe understanding that the KITN is the most appropriate match will smothen things a bit, but on the other hand, the fact that he will be so appropriate may produce even more frustrations. Let’s be frank: Jon is a man a woman would prefer to marry for love, not for political benefits, and therefore realisation that, if the marriage happens, it will be for political benefits and not for love may cast a heavy shadow on the relationship.

      As for Jon, the gun has been hanged that he has a very serious attitude to potential romances and yes – he is not a womanizer. However, in this case he will be pretty much aware that winning Dany’s affection will be a matter of life or death; so, he will have to find a way to charm her and taking into account that Jon has never tried to charm a woman intentionally it will be a quite challenge to him. Especially having in mind that Dany might be quite intimidating in the beginning.

      Of course, everything said has been said about the initail setup. As their relations progress, both Jon and Dany will find out that loving each other is much easier than they thought. But that will take an episode or two or even ten and nothing wrong about that: love is complicated. Probably, if Jon and Dany met without the inevitability of political marriage hanging over them, things would be easier for them, but less interesting to watch.

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    140. Sean C.,

      It’s the editing people and the vfx people who are doing the most work on the post production part,well i guess the scoring too,usually once a season is filmed,the writers and showrunners have very minor involvement on the post production,not to mention that they have to prepare for the next season . I mean sure,they are going to review the finished product and make changes if needed like cutting some scenes that aren’t needed but other than that i don’t see how is a writing strike going to affect a production part .

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    141. Catspaw Assassin:
      Wimsey,

      I’m hoping the writers remember, and I’m sure they will, that the one character on the show who truly loves Sansa in a romantic way is The Hound. Where they take that, if they choose to, and they’d be fools not to, could be quite interesting (and quite violent and bloody because hey it’s A Game of Thrones).

      UUUGGGHHH, this has been one of the most difficult plotlines for me to reconcile between the books and the show. I don’t think they’re going to do it on the show, for the simple reason that the actors’ age difference makes it creepy AF. In the books, one can logically deduce that the Hound is younger, and even though the age difference is still about 15 years, it’s within a historical context where that really wouldn’t be, er, unsavory. But given that the age difference between the actors is more than 25 years, and their relationship thus far has been portrayed a tad differently than in the books, it makes that plotline a tad more difficult.

      Catspaw Assassin:
      Just once I’d like to hear my wife say those words. Then again she has no interest in the show, which might explain how we’ve been together for over 35 years.

      LMAO! It took a season and a half for Saner Half to finally warm up to it (largely because it takes him a long time to warm up to anything that isn’t his idea, but I trust you not to tattle on me). We’re up to S4, Ep2, which means that tonight… we watched the Purple Wedding! It was quite amusing.

      “I love him! He’s such a great actor! I just love to hate him! He’s the best young actor on the show, other than Arya!”

      [five minutes later]

      “He died so well!”

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    142. Genghis Khan:
      Sean C.,

      It’s the editing people and the vfx people who are doing the most work on the post production part,well i guess the scoring too,usually once a season is filmed,the writers and showrunners have very minor involvement on the post production,not to mention that they have to prepare for the next season . I mean sure,they are going to review the finished product and make changes if needed like cutting some scenes that aren’t needed but other than that i don’t see how is a writing strike going to affect a production part .

      Pretty much what Sean C said. May 2nd will be a “black out” and writers are supposed to literally walk off set. Benioff and Weiss still have a lot of editing to do in these last couple of months before July 16th and all work will come to a halt May 2nd if the strike happens. Whatever cut they have at right now would be no where near finished, so a delay is likely. Not only that, but writing for Season 8 will come to a complete stop, which will postpone Season 8 filming and production, which would cause a Season 8 delay as well.

      This is just unfortunate news all around.

      If no deal is reached by May 2nd, Benioff and Weiss will walk off set and Season 7 will be on hiatus.

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    143. Sean C.:
      Ten Bears,

      Writers who are also producers are supposed to stop working in that capacity as well (though whether they actually do varies, so it would depend on how committed the showrunners are to their union).

      And I think they are pretty committed. At least i know Cogman is because he’s tweeted about it.

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    144. Catspaw Assassin,

      P.S.: I’ve thought (because I think about such things, since I’m a freakazoid) that, should the showrunners “go there” with Sansa and the Hound, the only way to do it without raising all sorts of red flags would be for Sansa to be the one to choose him. As I noted earlier, only two men outside of her own family and retainers have ever protected her: the Hound and Tyrion. It might make sense, even for non-book readers, for the young woman who went south with naïve fantasies of handsome knights and colorful silks to still choose someone she perceives as a protector… but, having learned in the most terrible ways that handsome does not equal “good,” and protectors may be burned men or dwarfs, she might ultimately let go of the idea that physical beauty is necessary for the love she has always dreamed of. (Mind you, I would have no trouble boffing either Tyrion or the Hound, but I’m a coarser sort than sweet, refined Sansa.) Sansa must make an alliance with another house; and as much as Dany would like to “break the wheel,” the Martinverse is certainly not going to magically fast-forward a millennium or two. Given her experiences with Joffrey and Ramsay, she may well put her foot down, refuse to marry a man she has not chosen herself, and take both love and a foothold in the south with Sandor.

      As for Tyrion… They like each other. They do. Tyrion’s decency towards both Jon and Sansa should ultimately play an important role towards the cementing of an alliance between Dany and the North. But that marriage was dead in the water on Day 1.

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    145. Wolfish,

      My bet is that Sansa will eventually choose Tyrion (and Tyrion admires her much more than he is aware of). Sandor may be an option too, and Sansa mght have a rather difficult choice, but I think she will eventually start enjoying the big game and Tyrion who likes the game too will become a more appropriate game-partner for her, than Sandor. Besides that, Margeary has planted that seed in Sansa’s head, when she said that Tyrion might surprise her. And there are all those historical parallels between Sansa and Elisabeth of York, etc.

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    146. Jack Bauer 24: Pretty much what Sean C said. May 2nd will be a “black out” and writers are supposed to literally walk off set. Benioff and Weiss still have a lot of editing to do in these last couple of months before July 16th and all work will come to a halt May 2nd if the strike happens. Whatever cut they have at right now would be no where near finished, so a delay is likely. Not only that, but writing for Season 8 will come to a complete stop, which will postpone Season 8 filming and production, which would cause a Season 8 delay as well.

      This is just unfortunate news all around.

      If no deal is reached by May 2nd, Benioff and Weiss will walk off set and Season 7 will be on hiatus.

      http://showsnob.com/2017/04/21/games-thrones-writers-strike-wga/

      There is no set to “walk off” from. Season seven is already written and shot. Currently the episodes are finishing post-production work and D&D are working currently in their role as producers, not writers.

      If there was any chance a strike would delay season 7, HBO would have delayed their announcement of a premiere date.

      As of May 2nd, however, if there is a strike all work on season 8 (which they have started already) will be put on hiatus indefinitely.

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    147. Am I the only one who thinks Lyanna Mormont is annoying? Everyone seems to think she is great but I think she’s a waste of screen time. With 13 or so episodes left I am not looking forward to seeing more of her.

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    148. George: http://showsnob.com/2017/04/21/games-thrones-writers-strike-wga/

      There is no set to “walk off” from. Season seven is already written and shot. Currently the episodes are finishing post-production work and D&D are working currently in their role as producers, not writers.

      If there was any chance a strike would delay season 7, HBO would have delayed their announcement of a premiere date.

      As of May 2nd, however, if there is a strike all work on season 8 (which they have started already) will be put on hiatus indefinitely.

      Benioff and Weiss are still editing the episodes and therefore would stop ALL WORK on Season 7 beginning May the 2nd. Post production is no where near finished. They will be editing up to the last minute and continue to edit even while the season is airing. They were editing Battle of the Bastards while Season 6 was airing. CGI work is no where near finished and the final cut of episodes will be worked on for the next couple of months. If a strike happsns, the final cut won’t be finished until well after July 16th causing a delay.

      If Season 7 was ready to air right now we would not be waiting another 11 weeks for it.

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    149. Edit featured isn’t working for me, so I’ll this here https://www.google.com/amp/www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2017/4/19/15265700/wga-strike-writers-guild-hollywood

      Showrunners are supposed to stop producing as well. The link you provided just assumes the season is safe because it is written and filmed, but production is far from over. Benioff and Weiss will stop producing on May 2nd if there is a strike and the entire Summer TV schedule could be effected.

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    150. Jad,

      i think you are right, because three weeks is 21 days’ which is two month – and two month before the premiere the first trailer is released. you should be a detective.

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    151. Anybody thinking that Sansa will end up with The Hound is kidding themselves, I’m afraid.

      Sansa had her chance to ride off into the sunset with Sandor and she turned it down. Now she’s Lady of Winterfell and has a greater responsibility to her House. Marrying into little old House Clegane ain’t going to cut it.

      Not that she’s likely to want to marry out of choice anytime soon anyway. But if she has to it’ll be to somebody of strategic/political importance.

      Tyrion is a possibility. But in all honesty I doubt that Tyrion would be down for that.

      He didn’t want to marry her the first time and clearly expressed his discomfort with the situation, not least because of her obvious discomfort.

      Tyrion doesn’t want to be with somebody who doesn’t want to be with him. And I think he will be happy that she is free to find a match that she’s more comfortable with. So unless there is a particularly pressing need for them to re-marry, I don’t think Tyrion would even entertain the idea, let alone Sansa.

      No, if Sansa is to marry before the show ends it will be to somebody new. There are still a few viable candidates out there.

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    152. Wolfish,

      So Saner Half is a disciple of the Many-Faced Goddess…and you’re up to S4e2…

      I hope you will let us know Saner Half’s reactions to:

      • Arya’s skewering of Rorge;
      • Arya’s hysterical laughter outside the Bloody Gate;
      • Brienne & Pod vs. Arya & The Hound – especially Sandor’s admission “Aye, that’s what I’m doing” (watching over Arya);
      • Arya leaving mortally wounded Sandor to die, ignoring his pleas to “kill me!”;
      • S5, Arya insisting to Jaqen “I wanted him to suffer; I hated him!”, and Jaqen hitting her because “A girl lies. To me, to the Many-Faced God. To herself.”
      • S6: The Waif (kind of from out of nowhere) asks A Girl: “Tell me about The Hound”, and A Girl admits Arya Stark did … and did not want him to die: Yes, she was confused.
      • Arya taking out Meryn F-cking Trant [maybe rewatching S1 Syrio-Arya scenes to prepare]
      • Sandor lets down his guard, tells Arya story about Gregor burning his face, lets her clean his wound ?;
      and of course when you reach the end of S6:
      • The “serving girl” surprise for Walder Frey

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    153. King Ragnar,

      I thought the scene at Bear Island was absolutely horrible. One of the worst scenes on the show, ever, as far as I’m concerned.

      They shouldn’t have left her to try to carry the scene alone.

      The King in the North scene she was fine. But I’m not interested in seeing them overuse her novelty factor.

      If she has a few lines as part of a group scene, that’s fine by me. But give her too much material and it has the potential to damage the credibility of future scenes, in my opinion.

      We’ll have to wait and see.

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    154. Inga,

      Well, Tyrion did have that wedding night scene where he told Sansa he wouldn’t have sex with her unless and until she wanted to; she replied “what if I never do?”; and he lifted his wine glass and said:

      “And so my watch begins.”

      That was what – 4 or 5 years ago? I’d say it’s about time his watch is ended. ☺️

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    155. King Ragnar,

      If you’re not a troll or a Russian bot, then yes, King Ragnar, you’re probably the only one who thinks Lyanna Mormont is annoying. The showrunners loved Bella Ramsay, her cast mates were blown away by her, and the fandom here voted her Best Guest Actress by a landslide.

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    156. Firannion:
      Petyr Baelish looks about ten years older in that shot (also like he has no arms).Wonder what’s worrying him – the ascendancy of Jon? Finding out that the Hound is alive and headed Sansa’s way with incriminating information?

      Sansa just looks stern and cold to me there.

      She could be angry at LF, at the moment I think she’s angry with Jon for leaving her alone with him.

      albeit with Ghost as protection

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    157. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I agree, I see little possibility of SanSan happening, thankfully. I have always hated that pairing. The thought of a grown man having feelings for a 11 year old girl has always creeped me out, inspite of the fact that the story is supposed to be based on a medieval setting.

      I don’t know if there are any viable candidates for her to marry on the show though. If she does end up marrying anyone, I hope it will be some unknown Lord or something like that, which will enable her to carry on the Stark line.

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    158. Dare I hope for a battle scene with Brienne and Tormund fighting side by side?

      Also, clearly Arya sees Hot Pie (who has been secretly feeding Nymeria behind the Inn) and is telling him with her eyes to keep cool and not give her away.. ?

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    159. tiny direwolf,

      Of course: All narrative roads lead to Hot Pie.

      (And if my in-progress tinfoil theory about AA/TPTWP comes true, it will be Hot Pie who supplied the final piece to the puzzle.)

      PS Are we sure the annotations on the paper Gilly is looking at in the promo picture do not contain the ingredients for Hot Pie’s kidney pie gravy?

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    160. ghost of winterfell,

      About Sansa’s fate:

      If I were a Vegas oddsmaker, my opening betting line* would be:

      • Sansa is killed this season 3:1

      • “Nissa Nissa” is revealed
      to be a slightly jumbled anagram of “Sansa Sansa”,
      and consistent with the
      prophecy she sacrifices herself
      for the greater good in S8
      ….. 5:1

      • Sansa becomes the Night 6:1
      King’s concubine or queen

      • Sansa winds up with Tyrion 8:1

      • Sansa winds up with 15:1
      Sandor

      • LF takes the Iron Throne 50:1
      with Sansa by his side

      •. Sansa winds up with Jon 100:1

      * See “Malley No-Show”, in the Clint Eastwood movie “The Gauntlet” had fun with this concept that there are betting lines on everything imaginable.

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    161. Ten Bears: (And if my in-progress tinfoil theory about AA/TPTWP comes true, it will be Hot Pie who supplied the final piece to the puzzle.

      I know! I know! [jumping up & down w/ hand in air like Hermione Granger]

      ::Direwolf-shaped cookies are the long-lost secret ingredient in the forging of Valyrian steel::

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    162. Edit/correction: I couldn’t figure out how to make “columns” in the text box coincide with the posted version. Sorry about that. My “odds” are all over the place.

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    163. I think I’m usually on the same page with you Ten Bears, but to be completely honest, I wasn’t awestruck by Lyanna/Bella. I don’t think she was annoying by any means but I really thought the gushing went way overboard. I do think she did a fine job but her role was small and she didn’t need to do anything special. She didn’t need to convey a range of emotions or anything, just deliver a few lines of dialogue acting older than she is to be heard as the Lady of a House.

      I just think a large portion of the fandom was excited for the Little Bear, so when she did a good job, even though it was limited, the praise went into overdrive. I’m sure viewer only fans also thought her great because it was a little girl in an uncommon position standing up to adults.

      The praise for a while was nearly reaching season one Maisie level and to me there isn’t a comparison. That is to say that we can’t compare because Bella didn’t need to do anything like Maisie. Even so, they struck gold with Maisie for Arya though so comparing to her is absurd imo at this point. Even before Maisie said a single line in episode one she had already displayed a spectrum of emotion on her face alone that was unmistakable. Boredom and dislike (of sewing) – yearning (to be with the boys) – amazement with herself, mock boasting and glee (after shooting the bullseye) – excitement (for the king’s caravan), up to “Arya,” and then curiousity, “where’s the imp?” All of that was conveyed with just her eyes and face. It’s a gift she has that not everyone does. There’s another actress playing a character in Westeros that has like three or four facial expressions for instance.

      Majority spoke on our guest actress voting so I realize I’m in the minority when it comes to who won it. Like I mentioned, she did a fine job, but she only had to deliver a handful of lines in two scenes with little acting range necessary. I’m not saying Bella can’t be good or isn’t good, just that there isn’t much to go on yet. Essie Davis was my vote byw

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    164. Ten Bears: • “Nissa Nissa” is revealed to be a slightly jumbled anagram of “Sansa Sansa”, and consistent with the prophecy she sacrifices herself for the greater good in S8….. 5:1

      I would give this far worse odds, considering that Nissa Nissa has never never been mentioned on the show.

      In fact, I’m a bit baffled by all the book fans who obsess over who Jon’s (or Dany’s or whoever’s) Nissa Nissa is going to turn out to be. In an alternate universe stuffed to the gills with false conventional wisdom, not every aspect of every ancient legend or prophecy is going to be replicated in the ‘present.’ If a magic sword really must be plunged into some woman’s breast (and I sincerely hope not, because misogynists don’t need another sop thrown to them in this bloody saga) in order to have its powers fully activated, it will most likely happen in some sort of very ironic, perhaps even accidental way.

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    165. ghost of winterfell,

      I’ve never seen what others see between Sansa and The Hound either. Like you, I find the age difference problematic enough on its own,even accounting for the fact that it wouldn’t be so much of an issue in Westeros.

      As far as I’m concerned The Hound’s relationship with Sansa was only ever a narrative tool to subvert Sansa’s naive understanding of chivalry, honour and killing and expose the deceptiveness of appearances. Her education in these matters continued with her marriage to Tyrion.

      But I don’t think the viewer was ever supposed to consider them a viable partnership or cling to the possibility of them ending up together.

      In my opinion, her rejection of his offer to take her away with him during the Battle of the Blackwater was ultimately meant to be seen as a rejection of him, despite the fact that her opinion of him had obviously softened.

      The lessons learnt from her relationships with The Hound and Tyrion are meant to stand her in good stead when choosing a partner in future, or should she face another marriage to a less than ideal suitor.

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    166. Inga,

      Hmmm… Good points. And since you’re the medievalist, you know things I don’t.

      (opens new tab, Googles “Elizabeth of York” to refresh memory)

      Ten Bears,

      Will do! He loved it when, after some hesitation, she finally pulled it together, killed Polliver, and took Needle back.

      Ten Bears,

      I’ve thought of all these possibilities as well, which means that either a) you’ve warged into me, or b) GoT fans are like the Borg.

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    167. Clob: I wasn’t awestruck by Lyanna/Bella. I don’t think she was annoying by any means but I really thought the gushing went way overboard. … I just think a large portion of the fandom was excited for the Little Bear, so when she did a good job, even though it was limited, the praise went into overdrive.

      Agreed. My theatre-major son actually squirmed at her first scene, thought she came off stiff and awkward (as do most child actors, to be fair). She amused me, but I did think that the outpouring of praise was overblown. It kind of felt a bit like, ‘Wow, that dog can dance on its hind legs’ to me.

      I’m certainly willing to give the actress time to develop, though. Let’s see if she demonstrates greater range and nuance this season.

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    168. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Anybody thinking that Sansa will end up with The Hound is kidding themselves, I’m afraid. Sansa had her chance to ride off into the sunset with Sandor and she turned it down.

      Tyrion doesn’t want to be with somebody who doesn’t want to be with him. And I think he will be happy that she is free to find a match that she’s more comfortable with. So unless there is a particularly pressing need for them to re-marry, I don’t think Tyrion would even entertain the idea, let alone Sansa.

      No, if Sansa is to marry before the show ends it will be to somebody new. There are still a few viable candidates out there.

      You’re right about SanSan. It was a real possibility in the books but not on the show. In either case, probably that train has left the station. Tyrion is still viable. Sansa’s a bit more sensible than she used to be and able to see worth in an ugly person. I doubt she’d ever truly love him, but it could be a contented union though I think he deserves better. There’s also the possibility Robin Arryn may have matured into a more capable, less annoying person without his mum around to milk his insecurities. Once Tormund is totally rebuffed by Brienne, Sansa and he could get together. She’d like bringing up tall, strong, ginger babies. And isn’t Lord Glover a widower?

      King Ragnar:
      Am I the only one who thinks Lyanna Mormont is annoying? Everyone seems to think she is great but I think she’s a waste of screen time. With 13 or so episodes left I am not looking forward to seeing more of her.

      The Little Bear is fun, but I found her rather one-note. If she doesn’t evolve this season, IMO she won’t have earned her place among the 15 photos.

      And Ten Bears,
      I think it’s a < 3% margin of error 😉 GMTA, no?

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    169. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      ghost of winterfell,

      In my opinion, her rejection of his offer to take her away with him during the Battle of the Blackwater was ultimately meant to be seen as a rejection of him, despite the fact that her opinion of him had obviously softened.

      I agree with all your points about the show Sansa/Hound relationship except for this one. I interpreted her rejection of his offer as inability to be decisive or think for herself. No, she doesn’t have any romantic feelings for him; she doesn’t have any romantic feelings for Ser Dontos, either, but allows herself to be dragged away from the Purple Wedding, no questions asked. The differences between how each man handled her are telling. Sandor gave her the choice; he asked her if she wanted to go. Dontos physically wrested her away and gave her an order: “You must come with me now!”

      Unlike Arya, who learns very quickly how to take decisive action for her own (and others’) good, Sansa simply doesn’t know how to operate in the world unless someone has a plan for her and tells her how to get from Point A to Point B. She had a pretty good idea of how her life would proceed in King’s Landing if either a) Tyrion won the battle or b) Stannis won the battle. She had no idea how it would proceed if she simply took off with the Hound. And ultimately, the unknown of that scenario, even with a man she knew wouldn’t hurt her, was more frightening to her than the known of Stannis winning, and the very real possibility that she would simply be married off in yet another strategic alliance. In short, having to think for herself was far more foreign to her than simply being told what to do. And that, of course, is one of the most fundamental differences between her and Arya, and why each sister has survived in her own respective situation far longer than either would have if their places had been switched.

      GAH, I didn’t mean to write a short essay.

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    170. If Jon really is in the crypts in that photo I can imagine a situation in which he just went there to pay a visit to Rickon/Ned/Robb. He then glances at Lyanna’s statue quickly, but then feels a strange pull towards it and thus looks at it again, not sure why he is so drawn to it, maybe even taking a hesitant step towards it. After a while he shakes it off and turns around and walks out of the crypts.

      And everyone watching that scene are like “Nooo, Jon, she’s your mom!!”

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    171. Wolfish,

      According to Sophie, Sansa didn’t go with the Hound because she didn’t trust him (which is confusing since the whole scene is building to her saying he won’t hurt her, but then, I think all the changes the show made to that plotline rendered it totally inert, so that’s not terribly surprising; in the book, it’s pretty damn obvious why she doesn’t go with him).

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    172. Clob,

      I think some people were so thrilled with the concept of this badass little Lady talking sass and holding her own in Westerosi society that they overlooked the acting altogether.

      The scene at Bear Island is clunky and awkward and I blame the writers/director for that. They should’ve given Lyanna’s advisors a line or two, to take some of the weight of the scene off Bella Ramsey’s shoulders, like with Maester Luwin in the scenes where Bran was hosting local noblemen.

      The fact that she won Best Guest Actress ahead of Essie Davis just goes to show how hype overrode what actually occurred on-screen.

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    173. Stark Raven’ Rad:

      There’s also the possibility Robin Arryn may have matured into a more capable, less annoying person without his mum around to milk his insecurities.

      OMG, “milk his insecurities.” I’m dying here!

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    174. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Whatever problems the Bear Island scene has, I don’t think it’s to do with Ramsey (the writing for Jon and Sansa in that scene is flat-out bad). She’s quite capable with the material there.

      On the larger issue of Lady Lyanna, I would agree with people who say she’s a one-note character, but it’s a fun one-note, and she’s been sparingly used thus far. If they’re going to give her more screentime, though, then they need to show more dimension to her (it would be nice, in particular, to emphasize that she really is just a kid at the end of the day) or else it gets old (a mistake the show has made with other popular minor characters before).

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    175. Wolfish: Dontos physically wrested her away and gave her an order: “You must come with me now!”

      That is entirely on the show writers, IMO, because they wanted the escape to be a surprise. In the books, she is more proactive, plotting with Dontos beforehand, sneaking out at night to meet him etc.

      Also, the problem is not that Sansa can’t think for herself, she obviously can. But she uses the ideas of an ideal Westerosi society from the songs and stories of chivalry and knighthood as a framework and has difficulties when things do not fit into these narratives.

      I don’t remember exactly, but at one instance, she thinks of Jon as a “black knight of the Wall”, so he could fit into the framework.

      Ultimately, I think, one goal for the character will be to put those narratives aside and through her own experiences, find some new coping mechanisms that are much more useful in such a world.

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    176. Sean C.:
      Wolfish,

      According to Sophie, Sansa didn’t go with the Hound because she didn’t trust him (which is confusing since the whole scene is building to her saying he won’t hurt her, but then, I think all the changes the show made to that plotline rendered it totally inert, so that’s not terribly surprising; in the book, it’s pretty damn obvious why she doesn’t go with him).

      Hmmm. As others have noted, Sophie sometimes seems to misunderstand her own character’s actions and motivations. I’m sticking to my story, dammit!!!

      This is embarrassing, but I don’t remember if he asked her to go with him in the book. I only remember

      the sword, the singing, his tears, her awakening in the room alone, and her finding his cloak and using it to keep herself warm in the cold room.

      On another note, I just checked my email and found a notification from Twitter: “Jóhannes Haukur liked your Tweet!”

      LEM LEMONCLOAK LIKED MY TWEET. My day is done, and it’s not even noon yet!

        Quote  Reply

    177. Wolfish:
      This is embarrassing, but I don’t remember if he asked her to go with him in the book.

      In the book he shows up in her room drunk and covered in blood and asks her to go with him, she says no (quite understandably, given his unstable behaviour and how scary he’s acting at the moment; which is quite different from the show version, who isn’t unstable at all), at which point he flips out and draws a knife on her, she calms him with a song, and then he flees before she opens her eyes. The show version where they have a quiet conversation and then he turns around and leaves with her watching is totally different.

      The point of the book scene, in my opinion, emphasizes that Sansa’s gentleness and good heart has had a positive impact on the Hound (her rejection of his childish nihilism is vital in his progressing beyond that bankrupt ideology), but he’s still too wild to be the champion she needs at that point (Dontos, who she’s working with at that point, is too mild, conversely, as she herself notes).

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    178. Wolfish,

      I agree with all all of that.

      Of course, I’m also one of those that thinks book-Sansa (so far) has been more of a portal character for the important non-pov characters surrounding her. Save the arguments people as I’ve heard them before.

      Sean C.,
      She WAS a fun side character to have. Readers wanted to see her and we got her. Like people have mentioned though, she shouldn’t be overly used or story manufactured for her simply because of that. Don’t quote me on that if she has a scene in S7 where she is incredible. I really don’t expect anything other than an advisory voice for Jon though.

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    179. Ten Bears,

      Lol yeah Nissa Nissa is a near perfect anagram to Sansa Sansa, but since Sansa has never called herself Sansa Sansa, I would give lower odds to her getting Nissa Nissa’d 🙂 .
      Personally I don’t think there will be any Nissa Nissa sacrifice on the show or even in the books.

      I like that you give higher odds to LF ending up on the Iron Throne with Sansa by his side than to Jonsa!

      I would also give high odds to her surviving this whole thing.

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    180. Vally,

      Excellent points all; I suppose I should have clarified that Sansa cannot think outside of the very narrow framework of her favorite childhood songs and stories. And, following on Sean C.’s comments to which I responded,

      it’s very telling that in the book, the Hound orders her to sing “Jonquil and Florian, was it?” and, forgetting the words in her panic and fear, she winds up singing Gentle Mother, Font of Mercy instead.

      This might be interpreted as a turning point for her (albeit one unrecognized by Sansa herself), and the sort of nuanced development that cannot be as effectively carried through on a TV show with such a sprawling cast and so many storylines to tie together.

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    181. Oh, and I forgot.. My name is Vally, and I am also slightly annoyed by how they wrote the Lyanna Mormont character and the Bear Island scene 🙂

      For me, she reminds me too much of some of those kids from 90s Sit Coms with the zingy one liners, those sassy little boss children characters. Cannot stand them.

      And sorry if I come off as grumpy (I have a cold), but that Bear Island scene also made me aware of the fact that I am very much over the whole ‘Davos saves the day by talking sense’ schtick.

      I think I would have preferred it, had they used those scenes for character progression of the two protagonists instead of showcasing a tertiary character.

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    182. Wolfish: I interpreted her rejection of his offer as inability to be decisive or think for herself. … Sansa simply doesn’t know how to operate in the world unless someone has a plan for her and tells her how to get from Point A to Point B.

      Good analysis, methinks. Training women to be passive and compliant does not serve them well in preparing for real life. It’s scarcely less prevalent now than in medieval times, alas.

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    183. Sean C.,

      What I hadn’t remembered was whether or not he had asked her to come with him. I remembered everything else.

      I found the book version of events to be both more disturbing and more tender than the show’s; the bits with which song she wound up singing (in my response to Vally) and what she winds up doing with the cloak are very telling. I do agree with you about her gentleness effectively combatting his nihilism, but I think his effect on her is equally important. As I’ve noted here and elsewhere, I do wonder if she has consciously realized yet that the only men who have seen her as Sansa the person, not just Sansa Stark the asset, and protected her to some extent are men the world views as monsters.

      I know it’s a matter of very polarizing discussion in some quarters, but I never thought, reading the passage, that Sandor was actually going to hurt her. I pitied him, wanting a tender word or song so desperately that, not receiving it willingly, he took it at swordpoint. (And before the howls of protest begin, no, I’m not justifying it. And given what Sansa does afterwards, if you haven’t read it please spare me the outrage.)

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    184. Clob,

      Don’t get me wrong: There is no comparison between Maisie Williams and Bella Ramsay. Maisie’s acting in the 3-minute scene in S1e2 (from Nymeria “helping” her pack to jumping into Jon’s arms and naming the sword he just gave her) was better than any rousing speech Bella Ramsay delivered, though I still thought Bella was really good.

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    185. Firannion,

      Well, the way I see it these purported “prophecies” are based on a few fragments of historical fact, but embellished, revised, slanted, sugarcoated and given a religious reinterpretation over the centuries so that their origins would be unrecognizable. “Facts” become legends, legends become myths, and myths become fairy tales.

      And yes, I know the “Nissa Nissa” thing isn’t in the show. I haven’t read the books yet, but this aspect of the book “prophecy” has been discussed here so often that I couldn’t help but wonder about the jumbled anagram similarity to Sansa (especially after the transmutation of “Hold the Door” to “Hodor”).

      I’ll throw that theory back into the tinfoil pile, and revise the next “betting line” accordingly.

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    186. And they also won’t be able to put out a trailer or have a red carpet premiere with the writers strike.

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    187. Wolfish,

      I don’t think Sansa’s indecisive. I think that she tended to make the mistake of choosing the “safe” option, or that which appealed to her, over taking a chance.

      She does the same when faced with the choice between remaining in King’s Landing and marrying Loras or escaping with Littlefinger. Loras is the safe and appealing option.

      At the Purple Wedding there is no safe option.

      Although, when she does take a chance when faced with a choice, having been coaxed into doing so by Littlefinger, it backfires spectacularly and she ends up in Ramsay’s clutches.

      I think that if choosing to go with The Hound had appealed to her, particularly romantically, then that’s the choice she would have made. If, for example, Ser Loras had been the one promising to whisk her away from the city then she probably would have gone with him.

      So I think the fact that she rejects The Hound’s offer can definitely be seen as a rejection of any romantic side to their relationship.

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    188. ghost of winterfell,

      I like it if they could introduce Ned Dayne some how, as a passing recruit or as a young man wanting to help save the world.
      Even though he’s talking to Arya in book I always felt he be perfect for Sansa, and Arya gets Gendry.

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    189. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      Perhaps we should agree to disagree. As Vally noted, Sansa “uses the ideas of an ideal Westerosi society from the songs and stories of chivalry and knighthood as a framework and has difficulties when things do not fit into these narratives.” Loras is safe and appealing because he’s both a) the incarnation of her knightly fantasies (save for the sword-swallower bit, which she’s far too naïve to deduce), and b) she knows exactly what would be expected of her. Had Loras been the one “promising to whisk her away from the city,” he would also have been promising marriage and a seat at Highgarden, a life she had always fantasized about because it fits the framework of her beloved songs and stories. The Hound, on the other hand, doesn’t have all his ducks in a row, so to speak. The reasons for a lack of romantic attraction are not only physical (age, gruffness, that big ol’ scar), but also material: he doesn’t have his own castle to take her to, and she still can’t think outside of that framework. Winterfell might be “home” (although at this point, she still isn’t missing it as much as Arya is), but she would have been returning to another unknown. Sansa doesn’t like unknowns. I don’t think she would have ever run away with a troubadour, no matter how handsome, for the same reasons.

      I am enjoying this discussion, though. 🙂

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    190. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I’m really glad I’m not the only one who noticed the stark differences between how the child-Bran and child-Lyanna scenes were handled with their respective advisors. I love the character, but did think that her single-handed firmness in that situation beggared belief. (I’m already anticipating Saner Half’s annoyance when we get to it.)

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    191. Wolfish,

      No “Gah!” necessary. That was a great “essay.”

      Sandor offered to do what Ned completely botched: get his daughter out of what Ned himself had described as “a dangerous place” even before he discovered that all three “Baratheon” children were really Jaime’s. *
      (Notice that when Sandor was waiting in Sansa’s room the night of the Battle of the Blackwater and offered to take her home – she was clutching the doll Ned had given her.)

      Good point you made about Sansa apparently needing people to tell her what to do, and being unable or unwilling to make (the right) choices on her own.
      It almost made me wish Sandor had clocked her on her head, slung her over his shoulder and carried her off – like he did with Arya to prevent her from running into the Twins and certain death during the Red Wedding.

      * I still don’t understand why Ned didn’t get Arya and Sansa far away from the “zone of danger” – and confirm and re-confirm they were safe and sound – BEFORE he confronted Cersei.

      Can anybody enlighten me?

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    192. Sean C.,

      Also not going on by what Sophie said but with the show Sansa knew at the time she left the hold fast Stannis was winning and knocking down the door, hence in her mind she was safer with in the walls of her room then with a drunk and wounded Sandor.

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    193. Ten Bears,

      Per book, he basically he could not use his children’s safety from keeping him from doing what his honor dictated, namely warn Cersei and telling her his plans when Robert got back.
      Big mistake, Big, Huge!

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    194. I see the Baby Bear Backlash is in full swing.

      Not to worry. I’m sure the GRRM Reaper has already planned a shocking death for her.

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    195. Grail King,

      I understand the misguided “honor” thing. I just don’t understand why he didn’t get his OWN children out of Dodge before warning Cersei to get her children out of town before the s-it hit the fan.

      If I can filch from (and probably misquote) Donald Rumsfeld and Robert McNamara, there are the unknowns you know about, and the unknowns you don’t know about; then there’s also the “fog of war” where anything can happen despite the best preparation.
      Ned had to realize a s-itstorm would erupt once he confronted Cersei. As an experienced soldier and as a parent, he’d have to foresee that you can never know the exact contours of that sh-tstorm, which is why you get your loved ones out of the way so they don’t become collateral damage.

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    196. Firannion: What doesn’t ring true for me is the concept that a proud, ambitious man like Petyr, once publicly humiliated, would have gone on carrying a torch for Cat

      Agree. Hoster Tully (and Cat) rejected Petyr for being an unacceptable match, for challenging Brandon to a duel, and then for impregnating Lysa.

      Petyr was obsessed with never being poor again. Status was everything, because it brought acceptability and wealth as insulation against his mean upbringing in the Fingers. Why remind anyone of his disgrace? The fact that he is still carrying a torch for Cat shows how warped and stuck in childish emotions he is. He can’t have what he wants, so he will thwart the grownups. The actions he has done and will do because of his fixation on Cat may be his poetical undoing at his end.

      Or mayhaps the bittersweet is that Petyr lives to connive again while others are maimed and die.

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    197. Ten Bears,

      At the time he confronted Cersei, Robert was off hunting and he was going to tell Robert once he returned. Once Robert returned, it would be impossible for Cersei and the children to leave.

      The only reason Ned failed was because Cersei got ridiculously lucky in that her “get Robert drunk[er than usual] and hope a boar kills him” plan (if it even deserves to be called that) actually worked.

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    198. Ten Bears,

      He did think he was getting them out of the way; he had already made plans for their passage to (White Harbor?) when he was arrested. But your point is definitely taken about why he didn’t get them to safety first. Of course, their very absence would have raised red flags…

      UUUGGGHHH, poor, honorable Ned.

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    199. Jack Bauer 24:
      Edit featured isn’t working for me, so I’llthis here https://www.google.com/amp/www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2017/4/19/15265700/wga-strike-writers-guild-hollywood

      Showrunners are supposed to stop producing as well. The link you provided just assumes the season is safe because it is written and filmed, but production is far from over. Benioff and Weiss will stop producing on May 2nd if there is a strike and the entire Summer TV schedule could be effected.

      If HBO wasn’t entirely confident that D&D would deliver season 7, they would NOT have announced a premiere date, they would have delayed the announcement (similar situations happened in 2007, the last WGA strike.) Everyone knew the WGA contract was up, so given that an announcement was made, HBO must have checked and cleared this with D&D. As the article you provided stated, not all showrunners stopped production work in the last strike.

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    200. Sean C.:
      Ten Bears,

      The only reason Ned failed was because Cersei got ridiculously lucky in that her “get Robert drunk[er than usual] and hope a boar kills him” plan (if it even deserves to be called that) actually worked.

      LMAO!!! I always wondered about that too. I thought she should have at least slipped some milk of the poppy into the wine, to render the “plan” a tad more believable…

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    201. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: The Hound’s relationship with Sansa was only ever a narrative tool to subvert Sansa’s naive understanding of chivalry, honour and killing and expose the deceptiveness of appearances.

      Yes. The Hound spoke reality to Sansa, and she needed (needs) to see through her fantasies and see reality instead. La vie en rose has brought Sansa nothing but inescapable misery.

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    202. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      King Ragnar,

      I thought the scene at Bear Island was absolutely horrible. One of the worst scenes on the show, ever, as far as I’m concerned.

      They shouldn’t have left her to try to carry the scene alone.

      This is most certainly a minority opinion, given overall reaction to that scene both among casual fans and the rabid fandom.

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    203. Ramsay's 20th Good Man:
      I don’t think Sansa’s indecisive. I think that she tended to make the mistake of choosing the “safe” option, or that which appealed to her, over taking a chance.

      She does the same when faced with the choice between remaining in King’s Landing and marrying Loras or escaping with Littlefinger. Loras is the safe and appealing option.

      Why is choosing the Tyrells over Littlefinger a mistake? They both want her for political purpose, of course, but Littlefinger is a supervillain who has brought her nothing but grief over the years; pivoting to a less malevolent option is the smarter move on her part, arguably.

      And as you note, the one time in the show that Sansa has opted to take a risk (a risk involving Littlefinger) it was a catastrophic mistake, and the “safe” play was clearly smarter (assuming she even had a choice, which the show has kind of waffled on in retrospect).

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    204. Clob,

      As long as we’re talking about child actresses…
      You wrote that “they struck gold with Maisie for Arya.”

      In April, 2011, before the premiere of GoT, Martin gave an interview to Time Magazine. The first topic that came up was the casting of the child actors. Here’s an excerpt.

      Excerpt from GRRM Time interview, 4-15-11

      Martin: “The child actors were the hardest to fill because we looked at literally hundreds for the three major children’s roles. I mean, most child actors. Well you know, you see these kids and they’re kids, they’re not actors. Their triumph is that they’ve memorized the lines. And mommy and daddy are very proud that they’ve memorized the lines, but that’s all.

      And then you’ve got the other extreme. You’ve got some kid whose obviously been told by mommy and daddy or by their school drama coach that part of acting is you have to emote. So those kids go to the other extreme and they emote all over the place, they’re rolling their eyes and they’re grimacing and they’re really going way over the top for everything and it’s completely unnatural.

      So you watch all this stuff and you reach a point where you’re just ready to despair and say, ‘this can’t be done here’ because most child actors—a lot of child actors out there are in sitcoms. And their role in sitcoms is to mug and look cute, you know.

      Our kids have actual dramatic roles where they have to deal with grief and loneliness and anger and a lot of very adult stuff. [I thought] ‘my God, how the hell, are we going to do this’, you know? But then you find that one in a hundred, or one in a thousand that suddenly… ‘oh my God, thank God, this is great!’ And Maisie Williams, who plays Arya, was one of those. I mean, just from the moment we saw her audition, I knew she was, she was our Arya…”
      *****

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    205. Jack Bauer 24,

      Lol,no,i’m pretty sure HBO won’t care about D&D’s feelings on the matter when they are in the bussiness of making money,if they aren’t willing to work on the editing i’m sure they could find some guys willing to work for peanuts and finish it .

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    206. Ramsay's 20th Good Man,

      I mostly agree with you. However I would frame it in the sense of risk-taking behavior. While Arya is a great risk taker, Sansa is not. Most of the choices Sansa’s taken are what she considered the safest: staying in KL when Stannis was about to invade the city made much more sense to her than running away with Sandor, the deserter (let’s remember the scene where Cersei is informed about some people trying to flee KL during the war and she ordered them to be excecuted and their heads mounted on spikes). Similarly, marrying Loras instead of eloping with LF made much more sense to her: it would have been an “honourable” way to leave KL (she was the disgraced daughter of a traitor after all.) Not only she would marry a handsome lord from a powerful House but she also be living in Highgarden, far away from the hands of the Lannisters… Thus marrying Loras would have provided her: a honourable way out, restoration of her status as a respected Lady, and protection from the Lannisters.

      Of course we know those choices ended up being terrible bad ones… but only because we had much more information than her: for example, we knew of Tywin’s plan to thwart Vary’s and Olenna’s plans.

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    207. Ten Bears,

      One of the things that drives me batshit-crazy in many American productions, compared to many productions from other parts of the world, is the tendency towards over-emoting and “cuteness.” I think Saner Half’s love for Maisie Williams stems in large part from his unfamiliarity with non-American work and, hence, non-American child actors and portrayals of childhood. He loves both the complexity of the character and Williams’s incredible acting.

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    208. King Ragnar,

      There’s nothing more sad to me than when people say am i the only one,like they are so insecure in their opinion that they need validation from others !

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    209. Ten Bears:
      Inga,

      Well, Tyrion did have that wedding night scene where he told Sansa he wouldn’t have sex with her unless and until she wanted to; she replied “what if I never do?”; and he lifted his wine glass and said:

      “And so my watch begins.”

      That was what – 4 or 5 years ago? I’d say it’s about time his watch is ended.

      I would say that having Sansa end up with Tyrion at the end is a distinct possibility, at least in the show; with the added bonus that a Lannister-Stark union works very well in terms of its political alliance connotations. And you know, The War of the Roses, George’s original inspiration for this whole thing, ended in real life with one such political marriage between the Lancasters (Lannisters) and the Yorks (Starks); Henry Tudor (the one surviving male Lancaster heir) and Elizabeth of York.

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    210. Firannion: Training women to be passive and compliant does not serve them well in preparing for real life. It’s scarcely less prevalent now than in medieval times, alas.

      I think GRRM wrote Sansa as an object lesson in what can happen to a woman who is passive, compliant, and believes the mythology conveyed in song and tales. Curtesy does not always work as the lady’s armor. Being a perfect little lady does not confer safety, security, or happiness.

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    211. George,

      All you people with all your logic and historical references and shit, making me totally rethink my beliefs about what’s going to happen in the end. Stop it!

      (takes another swig of Arbor gold, er, Sauvignon Blanc)

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    212. Ten Bears,

      I don’t think the Little Bear will die – I think it may be far worse. She is an unexperienced child who acts on emotions and hates compromising. Last season that served Jon well. However, this season compromises will be made in different areas, and I’m affraid that sassy Lyanna will get upset about that. Moreover, I’m afraid that Littlefinger might use it somehow. I don’t like that in the photo he is behind her and smiling. Though on the other hand it may be just a coincidence. One way or another, I expect to see Little Bear in a slightly different role than last season.

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    213. Ten Bears: Good point you made about Sansa apparently needing people to tell her what to do, and being unable or unwilling to make (the right) choices on her own.

      Who were these persons who told her what to do that turned out to be the “right” choice? Can’t really think of anything where she was told what the right decision was and then willingly chose to make the wrong decision…

      IMO the most interesting point of the discussion was to understand how Sansa’s thinking works and where it comes from in order to understand the choices SHE does make. Besides, in most situations, we cannot even say what would have been the “right” choice, because we obviously do not have a parallel story in which the character made that other choice. We can only say that some choices she did make, did not work out how she thought they would. Well, tough luck. Happens to all of us.

      If everyone made the “right” choice all the time, we wouldn’t learn anything (though I suppose we wouldn’t need to because we’d already make right choices all the time in this scenario, but anyway) there would be no story, or a very boring one noone would like to read.

      I mean Jon let the Wildlings in, which was a good idea, but it also kind of got Rickon killed because Umber sold him to Ramsay because he wanted military assistance because of all the effing Wildlings that came south because Jon let them in…

      So, every character has to make choices that are questionable and difficult and seem good at the time, but turn out to be shitty in order to make this whole thing interesting and move the story forward.

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    214. Inga,

      Hmmm. Does she really “act on emotions,” or does she act on whatever deep sense of loyalty and honor has been instilled in her? She struck me as extremely level-headed (especially for a child, as I noted above… maybe unrealistically so), but also inexperienced in that she still views the world in black-and-white and acts accordingly. She reminds me of a certain Eddard Stark…

      And of course, she’s presumably the only Mormont on Bear Island right now, and has clearly steeled herself for leadership. I am very much looking forward to seeing how she and Jorah interact, especially because she is very much a leader and he is very much a follower; but as is the case with Daenerys, he is more than capable of giving Little Bear wise advice (and on his home turf, no less).

      P.S.: Thank you for the comment on Elizabeth of York, echoed above by George. I have been diligently re-reading my Tudor history. 😉

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    215. A Dornish Tyrell:
      Of course we know those choices ended up being terrible bad ones…

      Again, do we?

      We have no idea how leaving KL with the Hound would have worked out (talking about the show here; I don’t know how anyone reading the book could think it was a good idea to leave with him, even had that been possible in the circumstances, given the state he was in).

      But with the choice between Littlefinger and the Tyrells, she basically ended up in the same place she would have had she just gone with Littlefinger in the first place, and being with him ended up being a ticket into sex slavery. How would choosing differently have made her better off?

      But the whole “Sansa’s problem is that she doesn’t take risks” thing really falls apart from Season 5 onward, where she repeatedly takes risks and either suffers terribly for it (agreeing to the “marry Ramsay for revenge somehow” plan) or is humiliated and reverts to the safe choice (after refusing Littlefinger’s help and chancing going it alone, she ends up crawling back to him). Taking risks has never led to anything good for her in the show.

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    216. Ten Bears,

      Thank you! I love reading and hearing that stuff. 🙂
      I’ve heard the story about Maisie’s casting numerous times since the series began and I enjoy it every time. We just heard it again from the SXSW panel with D&D, Maisie and Sophie. They spoke about how they had looked at “probably 300 young girls in England and could not find the right Arya.” They then go on about how they were in Morocco in the hotel lobby where they could get wifi, got the audition video of Maisie’s, waited like ‘forty minutes’ for it to download, watched it and said “she was f*cking awesome for it!” Obviously Maisie’s casting wasn’t just luck since they’ve always said that they searched thoroughly for the right person.

      If you haven’t watched that panel vid here is the link. The Maisie casting part is right away in the first couple minutes:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vewbBG0aYM4

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    217. Sean C.,

      I would argue that in order to be a successful risk-taker, one must have better instincts, and a better sense of how the world at large works, than Sansa does. Arya has that. Sansa does not. (Conversely, Arya has no interest in the insular world of the court, and wouldn’t know how to navigate it half as well as Sansa does.) So the “problem” with Sansa is more complex than not being a risk-taker by nature (which isn’t necessarily a problem in and of itself); it’s also that, not being that sort of person, she really has no sense of which risks to take.

      That’s my roundabout and buzzed way of telling you that I agree with your assessment.

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    218. Wolfish,

      I don’t really follow. Sansa operates almost exclusively within court or similar contexts, so if not taking risks is an advantage there, why is it a problem? And that still doesn’t get at what risks she didn’t take that would necessarily have worked out better, as I said. Picking the Tyrells over Littlefinger was the smarter move, by any reasonable measure. Likewise, both of the times she does take risks it’s in an explicitly political context, which is what she’s supposed to be good at.

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    219. Sean C.,

      Hey, since you’re discussing your opinion on the show version of the Tyrell marriage, could you share your thoughts on something for me?

      How exactly do you think the marriage would happen? Margaery told Sansa once she was queen she would plant the idea on Joffrey’s mind, but I can’t really see him giving up Sansa to solidify a Stark-Tyrell alliance (neither can I see Tywin allowing him to do that).

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    220. Inga,

      I didn’t get the impression that Lyanna Mormont acts on emotions, or that her inexperience rendered her incompetent. Rather, it sounded to me like she duly considered the opinions of her advisors before speaking and before making decisions; she was not swayed by emotional appeals; she was very serious about her priorities and responsibilities to the people of Bear Island first and foremost; and when it came down to it, had the resolve to made the ultimate decision after hearing what everyone has to say and weighing the pros and cons.

      As Davos recognized, she never thought she’d be in her position, being responsible for so many people at such a young age. But she seemed to take that responsibility seriously. She only agreed to join Jon’s cause after concluding her people’s very existence was at stake.

      By contrast, we’ve got child rulers like the maleable Robyn Arryn, whose primary objective is to watch people fly through the Moon Door.

      Look, I’m not saying the portrayal of Lyanna Mormont as a 10-year old ruler was realistic. On the other hand, there have been real-life child monarchs, and no doubt some were successful if educated and guided properly.

      In all honesty, I’ve come across a handful of children who are unusually bright and mature, and would probably do a better job than some “adult” politicians I see babbling on TV.

      (Wanna bet Lyanna M wouldn’t say climate change is a hoax?)

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    221. Clob,

      Hey thanks ! I’ll watch that video. I know Martin, Benioff and Weiss have told the Maisie casting story before; I think I may have heard it recently on one of the episode commentaries on YouTube, but I like hearing the story each time it’s told. ?

      Equally entertaining are Lena Headey’s episode commentaries. She’s gotta be one of the biggest Maisie fangirls in the world. “Brilliant” is just one of the many superlatives she uses.

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    222. Sean C.,

      I call it a mistake in view of hindsight. Obviously it was a reasonable decision at the time, as was her decision not to go with The Hound. But both almost immediately turned sour.

      As you point out, we have no way of knowing how she would have fared if she’d gone with The Hound. We also don’t know whether Littlefinger’s plans for her would have worked out the same way if she’d left when he first offered.

      But regardless it’s difficult to classify the decisions she did make as good ones considering how quickly they blew up in her face.

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    223. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      But regardless it’s difficult to classify the decisions she did make as good ones considering how quickly they blew up in her face.

      To me, whether a decision was a good one is best assessed based on whether it was a reasonable choice based on the information the person had at the time. Whether it actually works out or not is affected by a million different things a person may have no control over.

      This is a frequent problem I have with how people assess characters’ decisions in this series. A solid decision-making process doesn’t guarantee outcome, and it doesn’t guard against sheer bad luck, which the protagonists suffer from not-infrequently, particularly early in the series (I already mentioned that Ned’s loss hinges on Cersei’s silly scheme actually working, which 99 times out of 100 it probably wouldn’t have; another is Theon’s taking Winterfell triggering the downfall of the Starks, which requires a huge run of luck for the Ironborn).

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    224. kathy,

      methinks you are putting our morality on that time and place where such a problem doesn’t exist – esp if they didn’t know they are related (thats what always bugged me about the King Arthur story – even tho I loved it, he was fated to sleep with his sister, even tho he didn’t know who she was. So because of that the gods punish him? ack

      supralapsarianism

      I love it when you talk dirty….

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    225. Congratulations, all–this is a fanstastic thread. Closet geniuses, the lot of you. It’s too cumbersome to answer so many interesting posts individually, so here’s some generalities.

      o Wolfish, the essay was terrific. And thanks for recognising the pun. Your insights on the consequences of good, bad, and non-decision making convinced me. I would add that book Sansa was decisive once: she went to Cersei to tattle Ned’s plan to get the girls away. (Arya, bless her, instinctively avoided being trapped.) Sansa’s disloyalty I can neither accept nor forgive…over a decade after reading about it!
      o Ten Bears, I’m going to think of you as 10:1 Bears from now on. I thought your odds pretty accurate, especially about Jonsa. I still think Sansa and Tyrion will get together, not because of historical parallels but because D&D love Sansa and because Tyrion especially deserves a happy ending. I just hope they don’t end up on the throne, but find a way for Tyrion to contribute mightily to the rebuilding of Westeros
      o I hope Little Bear gets more to do than speechify. She did that well, even replacing Greatjon Umber as the KitN nominator. But IMO the ecstatic response to her was totally out of proportion.
      o Sansa. If I didn’t know that GRRM had deliberately invented her to bring disorder to the Stark unity, I wouldn’t tolerate her. She’s a Disney princess acting as Loki but sans the humour or the nous to be consciously malevolent. Nonetheless, she lets LF be her mentor despite knowing some of his most evil deeds. I don’t want her or any Stark to die, but why some fans still idolise her I cannot fathom. Beauty does not excuse it.
      o Nissa Nissa. Unless Gendry is Azor Ahai, we’re going to see no sword forging by AA.
      Nissa Nissa, the beloved wife Azor Ahai sacrificed to finish Lightbringer, is not even mentioned in the show, like many book things D&D have scrapped. Many book fans dislike Nissa Nissa, yet a large contingent (mostly male, I surmise) go back to this and assume/hope it’s a given. Jon doesn’t have to kill anyone he loves thousands of years after the Age of Heroes. NN is almost certainly metaphorical rather than literal. On 21st century Earth, human sacrifice, especially of women, is widely considered barbaric. The show would completely discredit itself if they used it; IMO even the books won’t use it. One possible exception: Melisandre, the saga’s sacrificer-in-chief, in her R’hollor fervour might sacrifice herself. I expect Jon would be horrified.

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    226. Ten Bears,

      I also don’t understand also why tell your kids, why not come up with a story like I planned a boat ride along the Blackwater or something like that, keep the kids out of the loop.
      But when he put his honor and the well being of Cersei’s children before his, well dumb.

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    227. Genghis Khan:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Lol,no,i’m pretty sure HBO won’t care about D&D’s feelings on the matter when they are in the bussiness of making money,if they aren’t willing to work on the editing i’m sure they could find some guys willing to work for peanuts and finish it .

      Benioff and Weiss are under contract though. And even at that, they can’t hire just anybody because nobody can work. It’s a strike which effectively will cause a black out.

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    228. Genghis Khan:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Lol,no,i’m pretty sure HBO won’t care about D&D’s feelings on the matter when they are in the bussiness of making money,if they aren’t willing to work on the editing i’m sure they could find some guys willing to work for peanuts and finish it .

      Why didn’t all the networks do that last strike then if they are in the business of making money.

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    229. Sean C.,

      What kind of choice is it when your asked in the middle of nowhere; I never liked their answer.
      If Sansa said no, all he had to do was head back stop at the inn and get word to Roose to meet them their and pick her up.

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    230. Mr Derp,

      There isn’t enough time nor is it necessary to have a Targ heir, there are already two in existence, not to mention half the nobility can trace back to a Targ somewhere in their history. Jon is the product of ‘ice and fire’, not Dany. Lyanna was ice and Rhaegar was fire therefore he is the prince that was promised. If they go with another pregnancy and heir, that would be fan service.

      I always take into account what GRMM said about taking prophecies too literally and people have drawn up all kinds of complicated theories but maybe it’s simpler than that.

      I think Dany and Drogon will both die together. She named Drogon after Drogo – and they will now most certainly face the White Walkers and I expect the NK with his new ‘weapon’ – if certain leaks are true will kill them both. Dying together fulfills her vision perhaps not in the literal way but it could have been foreshadowing for ‘Dany and Drogon a.ka. Drogo being together in death. What about the pregnancy Drago mentioned in the vision? That could be her deep seeded longing for a lost child manifesting itself in her dream..again it doesn’t have to mean she’ll be pregnant.

      What about all that Nissa Nissa stuff? I don’t think Dany would be the great love Jon has to kill to make a sword burst into flames – there aren’t enough episodes for that to turn into a deep abiding love, if it were going to happen it would have to be someone else like Arya – from the books we know he loves the girl he believes to be his sister, his family. The prophecy doesn’t say it has to be a ‘lover’ or romantic interest – it’s a legend that happened to be about a man who loved his wife but love is love – it doesn’t have to be romantic in nature. But again that could be a red herring, for all we know, it could be Ghost he has to kill or no one…maybe he has to ‘kill the boy to become the man’ he was born to be’.

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    231. Marlana: I think GRRM wrote Sansa as an object lesson in what can happen to a woman who is passive, compliant, and believes the mythology conveyed in song and tales.Curtesy does not always work as the lady’s armor.Being a perfect little lady does not confer safety, security, or happiness.

      I think on one hand you are correct, yet on the other hand her courtesies kept her alive, she listen to Sandor, she listened to Dontos, she listen to Margery and Cersei and picked and chose according to the situation, which eventually let her hoodwink Tyrion as she met Dontos which eventually led to her escape.

      Now how much more will she learn and will GRRM let her find out about LF treacheries?
      So far we are the only ones who know everything, she knows nothing and Sandor and QOT know more but also not everything.

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    232. Sean C.: This is a frequent problem I have with how people assess characters’ decisions in this series. A solid decision-making process doesn’t guarantee outcome, and it doesn’t guard against sheer bad luck, which the protagonists suffer from not-infrequently, particularly early in the series

      I totally agree with you here… This is what I had in mind but failed miserably to express in my earlier comment. What I wanted to say is that we know (in advance in many cases) that some of the decisions Sansa makes won’t yield the results she expects. We, as viewers, perceive them as bad choices and Sansa as a poor decision-making character. However, this is wrong for the reasons you’ve mentioned. So, thank you for putting it more eloquently.

      Ten Bears

      Ned has a long history of leaving loved ones in the dark, which only results in the suffering of said loved ones.

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    233. Ramsay's 20th Good Man,

      So I think the fact that she rejects The Hound’s offer can definitely be seen as a rejection of any romantic side to their relationship.

      Given what she heard Cersei explain to her what Ser Ilyn is doing there in the hiding room (sorry can’t think of where all the women were during the battle) , she likely was terrified for her life. Her rejection of him was just an extension of that fear. I don’t think Hound was trying to be romantic, and I don’t think Sansa took it that way. (btw – I can’t remember, how did Sansa end up back in her room?)

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    234. Ten Bears,

      I understand the misguided “honor” thing. I just don’t understand why he didn’t get his OWN children out of Dodge before warning Cersei to get her children out of town before the s-it hit the fan.

      I totally agree, and was screaming at the book for Ned to take care of the kids. He was honorable, but had no political sense or common sense, really.

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    235. Sean C.,

      Ah, thank you! I didn’t remember that.

      How funny would have that been, if Joffrey were forced to let Sansa go and could not do anything to stop it.

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    236. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Sean C.,

      I call it a mistake in view of hindsight. Obviously it was a reasonable decision at the time, as was her decision not to go with The Hound. But both almost immediately turned sour.

      As you point out, we have no way of knowing how she would have fared if she’d gone with The Hound. We also don’t know whether Littlefinger’s plans for her would have worked out the same way if she’d left when he first offered.

      But regardless it’s difficult to classify the decisions she did make as good ones considering how quickly they blew up in her face.

      But she makes her decisions with facts on hand- BBW Stannis is at the gates, Lancel tells Cersei the battle is lost, she takes Tommen to the throne room, Sansa acts queenly and Shea tells her to go in her room, Sandor is there DRUNK, and a bit rude (as is his nature ) minus a dagger to her throat. LF gives her bad vibes in the book, he’s undressing her with his eyes not shown in the show, Marge let’s her in on the Loris bit which from her view is a good one as the Tyrells aren’t the Lannisters and though I don’t think they showed her not trusting LF until later, I think internally she doesn’t feel okay with him.

      Leaving the purple wedding was a chance, it worked . So far in the books, and from the excerpts the Sweet Robyn story looks different from the show, though LF is still pulling the strings, she is picking up on things, quicker than in the show.

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    237. Vincent Stark,

      Oh I thought she was fine for the part she played. A bit of comic relief really, to see this child command the attention of all these adults. I do agree that her character needs to now do things that don’t involve ‘speeching’. That being said, IIRC the entire cast was blown away by her, not just in those scenes but in other ways. Perhaps this season we will know what the saw (and yeah, I liked her but still think Elsie should have won for her role)

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    238. ash,

      Shae told her after singing in the hold fast to go to her room and lock the door ( because of Ilyne Payne ), Sansa asked her to come, but shae said she had to see someone ( Tyrion? ).

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    239. selena,

      It really doesn’t matter because it will be icky either way and weird to say at least.

      Spoilers

      Heavily hinted? Not really.

      Bread and butter? More likely Daario 3.0 and Daenerys because that’s where are we going with this. If look at spoilers from Lads on subreddit freefolk.

      I do wonder what you’ll be saying when one of them will die and it will end tragically … let’s face it chances are high for it. I have this weird feeling Jon will end up in some loveless marriage with Sansa by being forced to do so. It just gives me headache to even think about it.

      Ten Bears,

      Everybody is Tyrion’s best friend in the show. Books goes deeper to call each other a friend but yes I certainly expect a few scenes between them to reflect upon their journeys.

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    240. Ok just spent a few hours reading this whole thread – wow, really enjoyed this discussion. Usually I avoid Sansa discussions because too often they are just painful to read. This place is filled with intelligent and articulate people who love this show and who enjoy discussing it with each other. You guys make me think and make me laugh Thank you.

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    241. kathy,
      Must comment on this…
      See now apparently you’re of the type that believes the entire story is essentially about Jon alone. While even though Daenerys’ story has been at the forefront as much or more as his in the books, it sounds as if you think her destiny is only to be sacrificial for Jon. I’ve come across others that just look at Jon and say HE alone is the Ice and Fire simply because of heritage. I don’t agree with that, not in small part because of the enormity of Daeny’s story. I, like many others, believe that the Ice and Fire is BOTH Jon and Daenerys… It being their “song” (story) and those that opposed them and aided them.

      One, both or neither of them may die in the end but I won’t agree that it’s just about Jon. I also don’t think that was George’s initial idea either considering they both were to live in his early outline. That of course holds no bearing now, but those were his thoughts when he began writing.

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    242. Jack Bauer 24,

      You have no idea what you’re talking about dude so stop embarrasing yourself ! You’re the same guy who always gets paranoid every year about the seasons being delayed for whatever reason so it’s hard to take you seriously .

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    243. Genghis Khan:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      They did,like i said you have no idea what you’re talking about so please stop !

      No, they didn’t. Tons of shows were delayed and networks were running reruns or crappy reality shows.

      There will most likely be a strike and it will be on May 2nd. I’m predicting a delay announcement within the next 2-3 weeks.

      And you really think they are going to release a trailer and have a red carpet premeire during a strike lol? Do you realize how bad it would look for two of the top showrunners in the business today (Benioff and Weiss) to show up to a red carpet during a writers strike lol. It would look horrible.

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    244. Inga: However, in this case he will be pretty much aware that winning Dany’s affection will be a matter of life or death; so, he will have to find a way to charm her and taking into account that Jon has never tried to charm a woman intentionally it will be a quite challenge to him. Especially having in mind that Dany might be quite intimidating in the beginning.

      This all assumes that Daeny will need to be seduced. I really doubt that she will be: I honestly expect there to be a mutual attraction between the two from the start. Daenerys might be a person whom the world has heaped huge burdens: but she’s still a young woman who has known love and who enjoys loving and being loved.

      kathy,
      Daeny is one of the two primary protagonists, along with Jon. She’s not some sort of supporting character. She will be there at the climax of the story and she will make some key choices based on her own evolution (which so strongly parallels that of Jon’s) and these choices will be of the “damned-if-you-do-or-don’t” sort where Daeny (and Jon) will not like any of the options.

      Clob: I also don’t think that was George’s initial idea either considering they both were to live in his early outline. That of course holds no bearing now, but those were his thoughts when he began writing.

      That has tremendous bearing now! That outline made it clear that Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Bran & Arya were the five main protagonists of the story. The details of the plot have evolved, but the story is the same. How these five characters in particular evolve from Book 1 to Book 7 (and Season 1 to Season 8) is going to be the Story of Ice & Fire.

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    245. Sean C.,

      The best way I can phrase it is: As you stated earlier, the “Sansa isn’t a great risk-taker” criticism doesn’t really work when one sees that the risks she has taken wound up being disasters. My reasoning is, she doesn’t instinctively know which risks to take because she’s not naturally a risk-taker. Taking off with the Hound might have ultimately been to her benefit, *had she been more like her sister*, but the very idea of doing such a thing is so contrary to anything she would normally do (precisely because she’s not a natural risk-taker), that staying put–rather than doing something contrary to her nature–was ultimately the safest thing for her to do. Sansa doesn’t know how to deal with unknowns, which being on the road she would have dealt with left and right, and ultimately, a situation that might have been “safer” for someone else (e.g., Arya or Bran) probably would have been *unsafe* for Sansa precisely because she’s not a firmly decisive, instinctive sort.

      I realize we’re going around in circles, but I actually agree with your reasoning. Unfortunately, I can’t explain it any more clearly than that… because in the last four hours I’ve consumed far more Arbor gold, er, Sauvignon Blanc, than is good for me.

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    246. Clob,

      I don’t know whether it was legit or fake but one of the leaked spoilers said

      Mel tells dany that she must meet jon and tells Varys that she has fulfilled what she has meant to do and brought Ice and Fire together ( jon and dany )

      Hope this happens and it is legit..
      I would like to see people argue about this even after that

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    247. Wolfish,

      Sansa doesn’t know how to deal with unknowns, which being on the road she would have dealt with left and right, and ultimately, a situation that might have been “safer” for someone else (e.g., Arya or Bran) probably would have been *unsafe* for Sansa precisely because she’s not a firmly decisive, instinctive sort.

      People with life experience know how to compare choices, think of the what effect each one will have, before making decisions. Granted some decisions need to be made too quickly to compare, tho again with expeience you instinctively know. Sansa never had much life experience, so never learned those skills So its hard to blame her for making choice we never would have made.

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    248. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      Love all these comments.

      On Nissa Nissa, I think the inclusion of her story in the Martinverse might serve at least three purposes: 1) to be part of the rich folkloric background of the Westerosi world; 2) in that vein, to provide the sort of “core story” (e.g., self-sacrificing woman, self-sustaining loner) that forms the basis of how people in a given society think of themselves and how they ought to behave; and 3) to ultimately upend the “expected” end of the story by contradicting one of the “core stories” of said world, and by extension, the reasoning by which people in the aforementioned world behave the way they do.

      In essence (note to self: tomorrow morning you’ll be really sorry you were Internetting while drunk), I think one of the reasons GRRM conceived the story of Nissa Nissa and made it a central part of Westerosi folklore was for the precise purpose of negating its central “truth,” that of the “noble honor” of the self-sacrificing woman (a “truth” that still permeates our own society). How that will ultimately play out in the world of ASoIaF is still (obviously) unknown; what we do know, however, is that the women who have fared best are the women who have steadfastly refused to sacrifice themselves, whether physically, emotionally, or intellectually (e.g., Cersei, Arya, Brienne, the Tyrell women, and the Sand women). That’s not to say they haven’t suffered; they most certainly have. But they have lived life on their own terms, and unapologetically so. Sansa, on the other hand, has followed all the rules… and suffered grievously for it.

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    249. ash,

      Excellent point, and I actually don’t *blame* her for being the way she is. Her naïveté and deep desire to hold on to childish fantasies drive me crazy, but I don’t hate her (or even dislike her) for these qualities. I know enough people like her IRL to know better!

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    250. Wolfish:
      How that will ultimately play out in the world of ASoIaF is still (obviously) unknown; what we do know, however, is that the women who have fared best are the women who have steadfastly refused to sacrifice themselves, whether physically, emotionally, or intellectually (e.g., Cersei, Arya, Brienne, the Tyrell women, and the Sand women). That’s not to say they haven’t suffered; they most certainly have. But they have lived life on their own terms, and unapologetically so. Sansa, on the other hand, has followed all the rules… and suffered grievously for it.

      I’m not sure I see how some of the people you list have fared better than Sansa, since you admit they also suffer (also, Sansa was a little kid when starting out, whereas almost everybody else you list was an adult woman, so there’s not really a comparison). In any event, Sansa stopped following all the rules when Ned died (and, again, her worst season on the show to date was Season 5, where she was the farthest thing from traditional).

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    251. Grail King,

      But Sansa DOES know about LF’s treacheries. Not all of them, of course, but she does know – and has let him get away with:
      • Poisoning Joffrey, AND falsely implicating her (for no logical reason) in the convoluted poisoned necklace scheme;
      • Murdering Dontos;
      • Allowing Sansa to be wanted for a murder/regicide she didn’t commit;
      • After framing Sansa for murder conspiracy, failing to come up with another cockamamie story to exonerate her;
      • Framing Tyrion, and letting him face certain execution for a crime he didn’t commit;
      • Murdering Aunt Lysa (sure, she was batsh-t crazy and was threatening to toss Sansa out the Moon Door, but he’d already calmed her down when he “your sistered” her);
      • (As she heard Lysa say) convincing Lysa to lie for him and kill for him [and if Sansa put 2 and 2 together, she’d realize that meant killing Jon Arryn];
      • Selling her to Roose Bolton, who personally killed her brother and joined in the murder of her mother, her sister in law, her unborn nephew, and countless Stark soldiers and allies; and then left her unprotected with the Boltons;
      • Skulking around W’Fell even though she knows he wants Jon out of the picture.

      So, even though Sansa is unaware of the full extent of LF’s treachery, she has (literally) let him get away with murder countless times.

      Sorry. This was not meant to be an Anti-Sansa diatribe. It’s just that the notion that she’s an unwitting pawn isn’t quite accurate.

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    252. A Dornish Tyrell,

      Sometimes leaving loved ones “in the dark” can spare them from unpleasantries. My only criticism is that if you leave them in the dark, make sure they’re someplace safe.
      (It was bad enough when he had no answer when Arya asked how he could let Sansa “marry someone like that”; but once he knew Joffrey was a fraud, there was no reason in the world not to get Sansa far, far away before the sh-t hit the fan.)

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    253. A Dornish Tyrell,

      I apologize if I wasn’t responsive to your comment. What I should’ve said is that Ned the Great Prevaricator has never hesitated to make up cover stories to protect his loved ones. He could’ve said, eg, his intelligence dept learned of a plot to kidnap the girls and they had to be whisked to a secret location ASAP until the threat was neutralized. There’s a million different stories he could’ve told them to keep them in the dark, while getting them out of what I call the Zone of Danger.

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    254. Jack Bauer 24: No, they didn’t. Tons of shows were delayed and networks were running reruns or crappy reality shows.

      There will most likely be a strike and it will be on May 2nd. I’m predicting a delay announcement within the next 2-3 weeks.

      And you really think they are going to release a trailer and have a red carpet premeire during a strike lol? Do you realize how bad it would look for two of the top showrunners in the business today (Benioff and Weiss) to show up to a red carpet during a writers strike lol. It would look horrible.

      I agree that if there is a writer’s strike, there will not be a red carpet premiere. And if the strike goes on for months, season 8 of Game of Thrones and season 2 of Westworld would both likely be delayed into 2019…

      However, HBO would NOT have publicly announced a premiere date for Season Seven without assurances from D&D that work on the current season would be completed in timely fashion; they just wouldn’t have.

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    255. ash,

      You brought up two good points/questions:

      1. How was staying put a good option for Sansa, since she knew Illyn Payne was there to kill all the women before Stannis & Co. could rape them? Maybe she expected Stannis to free Ned’s hostage daughter if his invasion succeeded, but that wouldn’t do her much good if she were a bloody corpse.

      2. Yeah… How did she get back to her room ? Was Cersei distracted or something ? (I seem to recall Shae telling Sansa to get out of the hen house and run back to her room, but I could be confused.)

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    256. Sean C.,

      Excellent point about everyone I compared Sansa to (excepting Arya) being an adult woman.

      Let’s see if I can still formulate any semblance of an intelligent response, given that I’ve graduated from Sauv Blanc to whiskey…

      1. The most obvious difference between the others and Sansa is that they either a) refused to marry or b) knew precisely what they were getting into when they did marry (as Margaery did). More important, none of them went into marriage thinking of it in the romantic terms that Sansa still dreamed of (remember the conversation with Margaery about Tyrion?). Among these women, those who married clearly understood that they were entering into a social contract where their own feelings were completely insignificant. While this means they were powerless in terms of, say, satisfying their emotional and physical desires within their marriages, there *is* power in understanding what the ultimate purpose of marriage among the nobility is, and acting accordingly–whether that means exercising great power informally (as Lady Olenna does), seizing it outright (as Cersei and Ellaria Sand have), or simply taking lovers outside the bonds of marriage, “morality” be damned.

      2. I’m not sure that “Sansa stopped following all the rules when Ned died.” Sansa stayed in King’s Landing, remained engaged to the boy king who had her father beheaded, made no effort to leave when said boy king married another, allowed herself to be married to his uncle, and then refused an offer of escape because it seemed safer, somehow, to remain in a capital city full of liars, spies, and both hidden and unhidden enemies than to head up the Kingsroad towards home with one of the most fearsome men in Westeros. (Granted, he was drunk, injured, and a wild card to say the least, but still…)

      3. At the risk of sounding like a self-empowering cliché… There’s something to be said for suffering that one is responsible for (what one has done to one’s self), and suffering that one is not responsible for (what has been inflicted on one by others). Cersei has suffered, yes, but she has retained her lover (her twin brother) and borne only his children, and exercised tremendous power behind the scenes before taking the throne for herself (albeit following the death of her only remaining child). Arya has suffered, yes, but her path thus far is not only a logical extension of her desire to avenge her family, but a logical extension of what she has always wanted to do: live a life as a fighter, a path normally reserved for men (after all, our very first sighting of Arya was hitting a target Bran had so much trouble with). Brienne, likewise, has chosen the life of a fighter, what she is best suited for psychologically and physically, gender be damned. She is fulfilled in a way that Sansa is not, as a born protector who has found a “place” normally reserved for men (an ironic parallel to Sandor, the man she tried to kill on the show). The Tyrell women have not been happy in marriage, but are pragmatic enough to not be miserable by its lack of storybook romance. And the Sand women (don’t get me going on how Dorne was totally f*&^%d by the show) have had the sense, among court intrigues and power plays, to unapologetically enjoy the sensual pleasures of life.

      So, yes, I think they’ve fared better than Sansa. It’s far more satisfying to live, even suffer, on one’s own terms than on someone else’s.

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    257. George: I agree that if there is a writer’s strike, there will not be a red carpet premiere. And if the strike goes on for months, season 8 of Game of Thrones and season 2 of Westworld would both likely be delayed into 2019…

      However, HBO would NOT have publicly announced a premiere date for Season Seven without assurances from D&D that work on the current season would be completed in timely fashion; they just wouldn’t have.

      I really want to believe that, but talks with the WGA and AMTP have just recently broken down. That was after the premeire date was announced. Not only that, but HBO has had questionable marketing in the past, so I wouldn’t put it past them to announce a premeire and then a delay. In fact, they renewed Vinyl and then shortly after the announcement canceled it. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit.

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    258. kathy:
      Mr Derp,

      There isn’t enough time nor is it necessary to have a Targ heir, there are already two in existence, not to mention half the nobility can trace back to a Targ somewhere in their history.Jon is the product of ‘ice and fire’, not Dany.Lyanna was ice and Rhaegar was fire therefore he is the prince that was promised. If they go with another pregnancy and heir, that would be fan service.

      I always take into account what GRMM said about taking prophecies too literally and people have drawn up all kinds of complicated theories but maybe it’s simpler than that.

      I think Dany and Drogon will both die together. She named Drogon after Drogo – and they will now most certainly face the White Walkers and I expect the NK with his new ‘weapon’ – if certain leaks are true will kill them both.Dying together fulfills her vision perhaps not in the literal way but it could have been foreshadowing for ‘Dany and Drogon a.ka. Drogo being together in death.What about the pregnancy Drago mentioned in the vision?That could be her deep seeded longing for a lost child manifesting itself in her dream..again it doesn’t have to mean she’ll be pregnant.

      What about all that Nissa Nissa stuff?I don’t think Dany would be the great love Jon has to kill to make a sword burst into flames – there aren’t enough episodes for that to turn into a deep abiding love, if it were going to happen it would have to be someone else like Arya – from the books we know he loves the girl he believes to be his sister, his family.The prophecy doesn’t say it has to be a ‘lover’ or romantic interest – it’s a legend that happened to be about a man who loved his wife but love is love – it doesn’t have to be romantic in nature. But again that could be a red herring, for all we know, it could be Ghost he has to kill or no one…maybe he has to ‘kill the boy to become the man’ he was born to be’.

      I don’t know necessarily that Dany getting pregnant is “fan service”. For all I know that may be what George told D&D happens in the books. D&D have said they are doing George’s ending. I don’t believe we are going to be able to distinguish what amounts to information from George from D&D so-called “fanfiction” unless the books are finally published, George tells us, or D&D begin one of their post-episode discussions with the words “When George told us”, as they did with Shireen (5.09) and Hodor (6.05).

      I do think Dany and the Dragons will die, and that sacrifice will save Jon and/or allow him to end the War.
      Predictions:
      1. Jon/Dany—-Kid
      2. Dany does something heroic, dies along with her Dragons. This allows Jon to “win” the War. Jon and Ghost disappear afterwards, just like the original Azor Ahai (like “ghosts”)
      3. Jamie dies in the War fighting alongside Brienne, both wielding Widow’s Wail and Oathkeeper respectively.
      4. After Dany’s death we see a vision of her, Drogo and Rhaego together in the Night Lands.
      5. Cersei dies, killed either by Jaime, Arya, Tyrion or…the Mountain?
      6. Tyrion and Sansa reunite, rule together in a Regency until the Kid comes of age
      7. Bran embraces his Three-eyed ravenhood and goes back North.
      8. Arya goes “West of West” maybe with Nymeria.
      9. Many years later, the Kid (now King or Queen), after Westeros’ first parliamentary elections, visits Tyrion at his vineyard along with Sam, who is by now Hand of the King/Queen +/- Grand Maester. They drink “Imp’s Delight” wine and Tyrion and Sam reminisce about the Kid’s parents. Tyrion finally finishes his Honeycomb and Jackass joke. Sam presents Tyrion with a copy of his latest Opus, “A Song of Ice and Fire”. The end.

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    259. Wolfish,

      Maybe I shouldn’t have brought up the “Nissa Nissa”/Sansa near-anagram, which is most likely a coincidence.

      The “prophecy” aspect – which has not been included in the show – was really offered as an illustration of the concept we’ve been discussing that ancient legends, myths and prophecies
      may have originated from fragmented bits of historical facts and events – including names – but after centuries of millennia of being misconceived, twisted, embellished, and skewed in the retelling, the story that remains bears little resemblance to the truth.

      Again, this phenomenon is something the show has illustrated taking place even in the span of one generation, eg, fictionalization of Ned “beating” Arthur Dayne in single combat; Braavos play inverting victims and villains; Cersei telling Joffrey when he’s king the truth will be what he says it is.

      Therefore, if the “Nissa Nissa” thing ever had any basis in reality, it could be something as mundane (or revolting) as a woman accidentally severing an artery on a gardening tool, an abused woman committing suicide, or a drunken, frustrated husband stabbing his wife.

      There are enough varying versions of “prophecies” on the show as it is, and with Gilly’s apparent discovery, even more in S7.

      I’ll be the first to concede it’s not very productive to speculate about something that’s been omitted from the show to begin with.

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    260. dragonbringer,

      Well let’s not mention any “leaked” stuff for now, even obliquely, so that the leaks-averse among us don’t feel like we’re behind the eight ball.

      I mean, I don’t want to lay out my theory that Hot Pie is the Valonqar if there are those who’ve seen the “leaks” and are hinting that they already know Hot Pie isn’t the Valanqor, he’s actually Azor Ahai and Lightbringer is baked into the wolf bread he gave to Brienne to give to Arya for safekeeping.

      Sorry. Juvenile attempt at humor to convey an earnest request. In all seriousness, I hope we can all wait until we’re on the same page to discuss S7 on equal footing when it airs.

      Thanks !

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    261. Wolfish,

      Two quick comments:

      •. I see you’ve “.graduated from Sauv Blanc to whiskey…” ?? I’ve got my own wine-infused GoT-related story to tell; maybe tomorrow.

      •. Oops. I forgot #2…

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    262. I’ve been ill these days and have other problems as well. Reading these comments has been a great comfort for me. Thank you!

        Quote  Reply

    263. Wolfish

      ,

      After Dany’s death we see a vision of her, Drogo and Rhaego together in the Night Lands.

      Read that and immediately flashed to that scene at the end of Star Wars part 6, when we see the ghosts of obi wan yoda and vader – I really hope they do not to that here!

      6. Tyrion and Sansa reunite, rule together in a Regency until the Kid comes of age
      9. Many years later, the Kid (now King or Queen), after Westeros’ first parliamentary elections, visits Tyrion at his vineyard along with Sam, who is by now Hand of the King/Queen +/- Grand Maester. They drink “Imp’s Delight” wine and Tyrion and Sam reminisce about the Kid’s parents. Tyrion finally finishes his Honeycomb and Jackass joke. Sam presents Tyrion with a copy of his latest Opus, “A Song of Ice and Fire”. The end.

      This on the other hand I could live with!

      Wolfish,

      Oh I didn’t think you blamed her but your post got me thinking of why she was how she was.

      It’s far more satisfying to live, even suffer, on one’s own terms than on someone else’s.

      Yes indeed , for then you have a better chance of being able to act independently from anyone else.

      Ten Bears,

      So, even though Sansa is unaware of the full extent of LF’s treachery, she has (literally) let him get away with murder countless times. Sorry. This was not meant to be an Anti-Sansa diatribe. It’s just that the notion that she’s an unwitting pawn isn’t quite accurate.

      This is very true and has driven me a little crazy watching her inaction. But really she is still a child despite her age, and is limited in how to handle any situation well. What she does know is what happens to her when she does something wrong, when she is caught – and that fear may be keeping her from acting even tho she wants to. I do think, in fact hope, that she has been thinking revenge thoughts and will be able to act on them this season.

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    264. Wolfish
      George,
      Ten Bears,

      I am having a horrible time getting my responses to fit the original poster, so I give up. You three know which of these you said, you can figure it out! 🙂

      I wasn’t blaming her

      Oh I didn’t think you blamed her but your post got me thinking of why she was how she was.

      It’s far more satisfying to live, even suffer, on one’s own terms than on someone else’s.

      Yes indeed , for then you have a better chance of being able to act independently from anyone else.

      ,

      After Dany’s death we see a vision of her, Drogo and Rhaego together in the Night Lands.

      Read that and immediately flashed to that scene at the end of Star Wars part 6, when we see the ghosts of obi wan yoda and vader – I really hope they do not to that here!

      6. Tyrion and Sansa reunite, rule together in a Regency until the Kid comes of age
      9. Many years later, the Kid (now King or Queen), after Westeros’ first parliamentary elections, visits Tyrion at his vineyard along with Sam, who is by now Hand of the King/Queen +/- Grand Maester. They drink “Imp’s Delight” wine and Tyrion and Sam reminisce about the Kid’s parents. Tyrion finally finishes his Honeycomb and Jackass joke. Sam presents Tyrion with a copy of his latest Opus, “A Song of Ice and Fire”. The end.

      This on the other hand I could live with!

      ,

        Quote  Reply

    265. Jack Bauer 24,

      George,

      I don’t think we need to worry too much about S7 honestly, they wouldn’t have a official date for the season if they thought the writers strike would mess with it and in 2007 although Showrunners stopped writing scripts and filming, quite a few Showrunners continued with production duties. If the writers strike is still going at the premiere, it also will not be affected as it does not involve script writing in any form, D&D don’t do marketing for GOT, HBO does all that. All D&D are required to do is show up, watch the premiere and answer questions.
      What is more concerning is Liam Cunningham said they would start filming the next season in September and if the writers strike continues for a while that will be problematic and we will have a delayed final season. Though if the writers choose they can write scripts but can in no way shape or form submit them. It has to be done Personally at their own computer at home, nor can they start with costuming etc which takes months with the GOT outfits.
      So personally I think S7 won’t hit any road bumps but if the writers strike kicks on for a while S8 will hit road bumps and be delayed.

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    266. Ten Bears,

      The Prophecy of “The Prince That Was Promised” many believe with slight variations is supposed to be Azor Ahai reborn. So if TPTWP is AA reborn that means the Lightbringer sword should already be in existence and since Nissa Nissa was already sacrificed for the sword’s power Why sacrifice another when it’s already been done and the sword could be merely located and used by TPTWP.
      I agree if Nissa Nissa was gonna be a thing in the show they would of used they phrase Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai a few times but from my recollection I believe Melissandre used AA once, when we first saw Stannis but then she dropped it and started using The Price That Was Promised continually instead, no one has ever used Nissa Nissa in the show once.

        Quote  Reply

    267. Ten Bears,

      I will do my best to not speak of leaks ..

      I may have missed amidst all the comments but did anyone ever bring Drogo’s name when speaking about nissa nissa

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    268. Wimsey,

      kathy,

      Agree GRRM did not make as many characters as he did for one single character to be a chosen one. I see the big characters at the climax and making life altering decisions for everyone in Westeros as Dany, Jon, Tyrion and Bran etc. They are all important in different ways and we will see them all come together and make choices that will probably haunt the short time they have left or if they have long lives haunt them forever.
      A song of ice and fire isn’t in my belief referring to one person, it’s referring to multiple people and their life stories and their fight wielding fire with fire in their hearts praying for a eternal fiery summer against a once enslaved newer race of people now using ice to enslave people for reasons unknown filling them with ice and bringing ice and darkness to all of Westeros but who in Martin’s own words wouldn’t call them evil, we just don’t know their motives.

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    269. Wolfish:
      Sean C.,

      Let’s see if I can still formulate any semblance of an intelligent response, given that I’ve graduated from Sauv Blanc to whiskey…

      ****
      2. I’m not sure that “Sansa stopped following all the rules when Ned died.” Sansa stayed in King’s Landing, remained engaged to the boy king who had her father beheaded, made no effort to leave when said boy king married another, allowed herself to be married to his uncle, and then refused an offer of escape because it seemed safer, somehow, to remain in a capital city full of liars, spies, and both hidden and unhidden enemies than to head up the Kingsroad towards home with one of the most fearsome men in Westeros. (Granted, he was drunk, injured, and a wild card to say the least, but still…)

      ****

      Now I remember. Re: #2 above –

      I agree with your observations.

      From my perspective, I’d add:

      On one hand….
      • It’s hard for me to put myself in the shoes of a fictional 14 (?) year-old girl in the middle of a terrifying situation.
      • I recognize that in stressful times, like when a war is raging outside, nobody has the luxury of writing down a list of pros and cons to make a carefully considered decision.
      • I can only imagine that if I were a 14 year-old in that situation, my first impulse might be to abide by the Janos Slynt Principle of Crisis Managemen, ie hide in my room, pull the covers over my head, and pray my bladder doesn’t betray me.
      • It’s hard to criticize a young girl who’s been tormented and brutalized, for being paralyzed by indecision.

      On the other hand….
      • Sansa has seen enough horrors to shatter any illusions that “the Queen is my friend” or “the Queen will protect me.”
      • She’s also seen enough “reality” to know that there are no Knights in shining armor, and that (as Sandor told her) she lives in a world of killers.
      • Likewise, any illusion that if Stannis prevails everything will be wonderful must have vanjshed when Cersei told her Mr. Payne’s “protection” meant he’d slaughter the women -inclhding Sansa – before Stannis and his men could reach them. • Therefore, “staying put” carries a high risk of getting butchered, raped or both.

      When Sandor presents her with another option, she already knows that despite his gruff demeanor:
      • Sandor is the one who saved her beautiful knight Ser Loras from the rampaging Mountain
      • Sandor came back and saved HER from gang rape and murder by a frenzied mob during the KL riot – and assured her “You’re alright, Little Bird” as he carried her to safety.
      • Sandor quickly came up with that “nameday” reap & sow story to save her from Joffrey’s wrath when she told him “you can’t” kill the drunken Dontos.
      • Sandor stopped her from getting herself killed when he saw she was contemplating pushing Joffrey off that bridge.
      • She’s seen firsthand on more than one occasion that he’s a fearsome f-cking warrior – and top-notch bodyguard.
      • He’s offered to take her home, no strings attached, no detours, and no ulterior motives.
      • Yes he’s drunk and dirty – but he just came from the battlefield. And he’s “highly motivated” to get far away from there ASAP.
      • Nobody wants to f-ck with Sandor Clegane;
      • All of the so-called “Knights” and “Sers” either beat her or were cowards.
      • There are times in life, like sporting events, when it’s nice to be in the company of pretty boys in shiny suits with flowers; there are other times, like when you’re in hostile territory, when you need an intimidating, hulking fighter – like Sandor.

      Now, even with all of the trepidation and confusion she must’ve been feeling, and the pressure of making a spur of moment decision….

      Wasn’t it a no-brainer?

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    270. King Ragnar,

      Wolfish,

      I personally adored Lyanna Mormont, it was good to finally see another member of House Mormont and she was adorable yet feisty.
      I do see however what you mean with the limited episodes and I too would prefer we focus on the characters that we have seen grow from the beginning than newer characters we aren’t as invested in but as long as she stays a ally and supporting character it hopefully won’t be a issue.
      I would however like to see Jorah and Lyanna reunite, we’ve known him from the very beginning and though his not a main character, his still a very big one we’ve seen him grow, and struggle and fall and rise up once more. So even though Jorah is deeply flawed and makes stupid mistakes, he has a good heart and is a good man so it would be amazing to see the last of his family forgive his mistakes and accept him.

        Quote  Reply

    271. Nissa Nisaa means Moon .

      Once the lightbringer is forged It is said to be as warm as nissa nisaa had been ..

      GRRm made Dany and Drogo call each other “sun and stars” and “moon of my life ” and included a story about how when the moon and sun comes close together the dragons born from the moon .

      Once lightbringer is made from nissa nissa ..lightbringer can make heat for itself ..

      Drogon is said to be as warm as Drogo as been and drogon can make the heat for himself as they are fire made flesh ..

      Iam sure all of this may mean nothing

        Quote  Reply

    272. Mel,

      I don’t remember anyone using the words Nissa Nissa or Azor Ahai once on the show and I doubt it will start now. The show has always used Prince that Was Promised instead of AA. Why show a page of that prophecy in a promo picture and give everything away? Not to mention Gilly isn’t even reading that page in the picture. Her eyes are fixed on the previous one. I think they’re trying to throw us off.

      Here’s the previous fragment/page just in case (the second half of the paragraph should be on the previous page):


      As the First Men established their realms following the Pact, little troubled them save their own feuds and wars, or so the histories tell us. It is also from these histories that we learn of the Long Night, when a season of winter came that lasted a generation—a generation in which children were born, grew into adulthood, and in many cases died without ever seeing the spring. Indeed, some of the old wives’ tales say that they never even beheld the light of day, so complete was the winter that fell on the world. While this last may well be no more than fancy, the fact that some cataclysm took place many thousands of years ago seems certain. Lomas Longstrider, in his Wonders Made by Man, recounts meeting descendants of the Rhoynar in the ruins of the festival city of Chroyane who have tales of a darkness that made the Rhoyne dwindle and disappear, her waters frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru. According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

      Based on all the promo for the season and the hints we’ve had on the show Jon is the one trying to convince everyone to stop with their greed and petty squabbles in order to fight the WW in the Long Night.

      I’ll die laughing if the book we saw in the promo shot doesn’t end up being mentioned at all on the show.

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    273. Flayed Potatoes:
      George,

      Why would Jon disappear and abandon his supposed child?

      “Magical Reasons”? Not meant to be a comprehensive outline; just playing off the fact that the first Azor Ahai disappeared from recorded history and legend after fulfilling his “purpose” and Ghost’s name.

        Quote  Reply

    274. Flayed Potatoes,

      I agree. The purpose of releasing that photo was to generate curiosity and discussion among the fans. They knew that fans would decipher the text in the photo. I highly doubt that there will be any mention of Azor Ahai or Nissa Nissa on the show.

        Quote  Reply

    275. George,

      Or maybe “Jon Snow” disappears from history and is replaced by whatever Jon’s Targaryen name is after the war. So the name disappears but not the person. Like in a hundred years or so, songs will remember the hero “Jon Snow”, but in recorded history we’ll only find Jon’s birth name and people won’t know they’re the same person.

      Like those theories about Brandon the Builder being the original Last Hero.

        Quote  Reply

    276. Wolfish:
      2. I’m not sure that “Sansa stopped following all the rules when Ned died.” Sansa stayed in King’s Landing, remained engaged to the boy king who had her father beheaded, made no effort to leave when said boy king married another, allowed herself to be married to his uncle, and then refused an offer of escape because it seemed safer, somehow, to remain in a capital city full of liars, spies, and both hidden and unhidden enemies than to head up the Kingsroad towards home with one of the most fearsome men in Westeros. (Granted, he was drunk, injured, and a wild card to say the least, but still…)

      What do you mean “made no effort to leave”? First, she did try to leave, and second, she was a hostage; she can’t be blamed for her own captivity, and her primary consideration in deciding what to do was whether the risk/reward ratio was acceptable. That’s not following the rules, that’s looking out for one’s own safety; whether a different character would have made a different evaluation is a matter of individual preference.

        Quote  Reply

    277. elybe:

      I do heavily ship hyperbolic moralistic fan outrage with schadenfreude

      lol
      Thank you! A good ship, too, as that makes a regular occurrence across fandoms.

        Quote  Reply

    278. Flayed Potatoes: The show has always used Prince that Was Promised instead of AA.

      The Prince that Was Promised means something; Azor Ahai does not. It would be bad adaptation to use Azor Ahai on the show rather than a descriptive title.

      Flayed Potatoes:Why show a page of that prophecy in a promo picture and give everything away? Not to mention Gilly isn’t even reading that page in the picture. Her eyes are fixed on the previous one. I think they’re trying to throw us off.

      Again: snapshot! As I was typing this, someone asked me something. Does that snapshot of me looking away from the computer indicate that this is a conspiracy to trick people into thinking that I don’t follow Watchers on the Wall? If the page is in front of her, then she’ll be reading it, or trying to read it at some point.

      As for it “spoiling,” the people who issued the still probably liked the shot. Chances are very good that they would not recognize that it was any sort of spoiler. Moreover, it won’t be: only a tiny, tiny fraction of show viewers read “hardcore fanchild” sites like this one.

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    279. Mel: They are all important in different ways and we will see them all come together and make choices that will probably haunt the short time they have left or if they have long lives haunt them forever.

      Too many fans have equated “bittersweet” with “somebody dies.” They also have equated it with “Jon/Daeny/whomever will not be monarch, because that is a happy ending.” However, look at the nature of this story, and look at the potential foreshadowing Ned & Robert offer at the outset of the series. Given that, I think that you are dead on: the bittersweet will be living unhappily ever after, just as Ned & Robert did. This is not to say that they will always be abjectly miserable; instead, Jon, Daeny, etc., will live wondering “couldn’t there have been another way?”

      I think that we’ve gotten the first big clue as to what might cause this dilemma. One, how is Daeny (or Jon or Tyrion or Arya) going to react when they learn that the Walkers are essentially a souped-up version of the Unsullied? Two, how will they react when they learn that humans brought this on themselves by being a great “evil” in the eyes of other people?

        Quote  Reply

    280. Vanessa Cole,

      All very true, but it we can safely say that Jon is not going to want to bonk his aunty.

      This show is informed by medieval history, but only so far in the context of the characters they’re developing for a general audience.

        Quote  Reply

    281. George: 4. After Dany’s death we see a vision of her, Drogo and Rhaego together in the Night Lands.

      I think that it is pretty well established that there is not an after-life in Martinverse! We should not expect there to be one, when the original author does not believe in this stuff.

      (Yes, yes, I know: warging; however, despite fan-fictions to the contrary, that’s pretty clearly just an imprint of a human mind, not the actual mind itself, and even the imprint itself fades.)

        Quote  Reply

    282. Ten Bears,

      Excellent summary of pros and cons there – but I still say its difficult for her despite what she knows of him. These points as you state are not equal to each other. The first one is probably the most important and has the most bearing on her: she is a fictional 14 (?) year-old girl in the middle of a terrifying situation.” and I would add with little real world experience. That will overshadow all of the there positive things she knows about the Hound, imho.

      BTW how old is she supposed to be at this stage? i was thinking closer to 16? How long has passed since the purple wedding?

        Quote  Reply

    283. Re: bad decisions characters have taken in general. I think some of them may be being judged with the benefit of the hindsight/additional knowledge that we viewers possess, but most of them were probably necessary for the story. Imagine if Ned had whisked his family and men away from KL at the first whiff of danger and hadn’t died (at least at that point) and how differently things might have worked out as a result? That’s not the only one by any means but is probably the first big why-did-you-do-that moment and the knock-on effect leads to all the other questionable decisions.

      Mind you, it could be argued that the battle against the WWs is the main story and all the in-fighting between humans (which is by far my favourite part) is just the pre-amble moving the main players into place for the final showdown.

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    284. Shy Lady Dragon: I’ve been ill these days and have other problems as well. Reading these comments has been a great comfort for me. Thank you!

      Close your eyes and relax. Imagine that your illness is concentrated in one part of your self. Imagine relaxing music and fine food and a pleasant atmosphere.

      Now, imagine that your immune system are the Freys and your illness are the Starks and slaughter the dishonorable bastards…..

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    285. Lulus Mum: Mind you, it could be argued that the battle against the WWs is the main story and all the in-fighting between humans (which is by far my favourite part) is just the pre-amble moving the main players into place for the final showdown.

      I think that the “infighting” among the humans is providing the setup for the evolution of the main characters. In part, it puts the main characters in places where they experience things that drives the evolution; in other cases, it’s the infighting itself that drives the evolution.

      But all of that character evolution is going to be what makes Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, etc., the people who do what they will do at the climax of the White Walker plotline. As an analogy to sports, the human wars are the regular season; the Walkers are the Championship Playoffs.

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    286. Ten Bears:
      Grail King,

      But Sansa DOES know about LF’s treacheries. Not all of them, of course, but she does know – and has let him get away with: • Poisoning Joffrey, AND falsely implicating her (for no logical reason) in the convoluted poisoned necklace scheme;• Murdering Dontos;• Allowing Sansa to be wanted for a murder/regicide she didn’t commit; • After framing Sansa for murder conspiracy, failing to come up with another cockamamie story to exonerate her;• Framing Tyrion, and letting him face certain execution for a crime he didn’t commit;• Murdering Aunt Lysa (sure, she was batsh-t crazy and was threatening to toss Sansa out the Moon Door, but he’d already calmed her down when he “your sistered” her); • (As she heard Lysa say) convincing Lysa to lie for him and kill for him [and if Sansa put 2 and 2 together, she’d realize that meant killing Jon Arryn]; •Selling her to Roose Bolton, who personally killed her brother and joinedin the murder of her mother, her sister in law, her unborn nephew, and countless Stark soldiers and allies; and then left her unprotected with the Boltons;• Skulking around W’Fell even though she knows he wants Jon out of the picture.

      So, even though Sansa is unaware of the full extent of LF’s treachery, she has (literally) let him get away with murder countless times.

      Sorry. This was not meant to be an Anti-Sansa diatribe. It’s just that the notion that she’s an unwitting pawn isn’t quite accurate.

      Yes she knows those, but if your a book reader she tells you why, the Arryans did not fight for her brother, why would they help her, in show again she can’t know what they would do to her.
      Dontos- she was at sea who she going to tell? the rest could fall on the above.

      Joffery ,again after the fact, in book she put 2 and 2 together in show again she was at sea and in all cases she was a POW, she can’t trust Cersei, Tywin, the Vale, her Aunt was a nut case who tried to kill her and people want her to put her trust in the hands of strangers, she can’t because prior to that everyone she trusted prior have betrayed her.

      The Bolton fiasco is BS, but I’ll try to let it rest, she didn’t learn about it until they are overlooking Mote Callin in the middle of no where, where she going with 10-20 soldiers surrounding her?
      I’am still pissed they gave that shit her words.
      She doesn’t trust LF one bit, but he’s kept her alive and as said in the show in that point in time she knows what she’s dealing with.

      In the show I think she needs to get SR on her side to get rid of LF and keep the Vale, we will see.

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    287. Wimsey,

      I would rather expect the Targarian Dream-Team to find a bunch of WW todlers playing piecefully with their ice toys and having to burn or stab them all. The show (and books) are very much about children and how children can be as dangerous as adults (take Olly, or the Little Birds, or the wight children who killed Karsi); the mass murder of little WWs is kind of foreshadowed. But it would be heartbreaking and horrible nonetheless.

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    288. Inga,
      Hi Inga. Sorry that was a very long pizza break! I’m confused which part of the page you think is the notes with the (possible) numbers in them? I thought you meant the bit right at the bottom which I did the zoomed in photo of? To me it looks like a pattern which could have some small words or numbers but isn’t clear enough to me to even make a guess. Or did you mean somewhere else?

      Mind you, as Flayed Potatoes spotted (good noticing-small-details glasses FP, I need to get some!) that’s not the page Gilly is looking at. Perhaps there’s something relevant just before that bit. I’m with those who think if there’s anything important in those texts it’s someone like Gilly, seeing it with no prior knowledge and a (relatively) non-educated view, who will spot it. Maybe something has been there the whole time but misinterpreted by previous readers? Hidden in plain sight. Wimsey’s always telling us the prophecies in the story don’t mean what characters think they do (looking at you, Mel).

      Firannion,
      I believe historically those kind of books were often elaborately decorated. In the early Middle Ages, for example, when very few people could read or write (far fewer than in the show) books were very precious, lovingly handwritten and often there was only one copy. Only very important things were written down. I’m not a (ASoIaF) book reader but perhaps this is the show equivalent of those? The Citadel is the equivalent of places like the British Library holding priceless texts from centuries ago.

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    289. ash:
      Wolfish

      ,

      Read that and immediately flashed to that scene at the end of Star Wars part 6, when we see the ghosts of obi wanyoda and vader – I really hope they do not to that here!

      This on the other hand I could live with!

      Wolfish,

      Oh I didn’t think you blamed her but your post got me thinking of why she was how she was.

      Yes indeed , for then you have a better chance of being able to act independently from anyone else.

      Ten Bears,

      This is very true and has driven me a little crazy watching her inaction.But really she is still a child despite her age, and is limited in how to handle any situation well. What she does know is what happens to her when she does something wrong, when she is caught – and that fear may be keeping her from acting even tho she wants to.I do think, in fact hope, that she has been thinking revenge thoughts and will be able to act on them this season.

      I think this will continue ( in book ) until she gets where she wants and needs to be HOME; in show she’s there but she will keep him until she has the Vale under her and SR control along with learning about Ned.
      In show we have a problem where an adult woman is playing an 11-14 year old and the writing isn’t flowing like it should so her decisions look idiotic at points.
      All characters have done gray areas, and a few have gone to the black side, Sansa is no where near Cersei, or LF, Tywin,Walder,Roose, Ramsey, or Danny.
      She’s done some foolish decisions but none due to evil reasons.

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    290. Lulus Mum,

      Always on my side, brave Mother of Cats! Thank you from the bottom of my heart! (Do people say that? Obviously, I’ve just have!) A bow (not a curtsy, I’m a Brienne fan) for you 🙂

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    291. Wimsey,

      Thank you so much, kind ser!
      I’m going to practice your wise method, but with a significant change: Arya killing both Meryn Trant and Walder Fray.

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    292. Oh and for those of us who have been thinking about what kind of music the Night King likes and what he would sound like if he spoke, I think I’ve found a contender for the noisey category. A live version of Amnesia by Swans. Start from 2.30 when the singing kicks in and listen to it with headphones on and the volume as high as it’ll go. They were famous for playing ear bleedingly loudly and this is what I imagine the sound of the Wall falling turned into music would be, with NK singing over the top. They wouldn’t need magic, just some really powerful speakers! 😀

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    293. Inga: I would rather expect the Targarian Dream-Team to find a bunch of WW todlers playing piecefully with their ice toys and having to burn or stab them all.

      I doubt that there are many WW toddlers! There seem to be only a dozen or so WW as it is: and presumably they are from Craster’s lot. What we have not yet had explained is why the Walkers returned. That is going to be very important because it also is a key to making them go away again. We really do not have a good idea of how long they have been back: clearly a few decades at least (i.e., the age of Craster’s older daughters), but they might have returned before then. Oddly, it does not seem to key to any clear events of which we’ve heard.

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    294. Shy Lady Dragon,
      Yes they do and you are most welcome! I am a great believer in gender equality so please do whatever you are most comfortable with and I will happily accept it. Bert and Ernie are obviously sending furry wishes too, especially if you have food or will cuddle them. Cats are so shallow! 😉

      Thinking of Brienne and character evolution, she used to be a joke to men but now has admirers in Jaime, Tormund and Houndie. She didn’t have some rom-com type make over, she stuck to her guns – well swords – did what she believed in and carried on regardless. At the risk of jinxing them all I have high hopes that she, Davos, Sam, Gilly and Pod, who all share those kind of characteristics, make it. They are all essentially side-kicks but genuinely good people trying to do the right thing. When I eventually attack the tv so hard I end up in GoT, which seems fairly inevitable, I shall be hugging them all. Inbetween dispensing some House Mum justice to others.

      P.S. Don’t play that Swans song if you’re feeling rough, it’s serious headache/destroy solid walls of ice stuff! 🙁

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    295. Sean C.: What do you mean “made no effort to leave”?First, she did try to leave, and second, she was a hostage; she can’t be blamed for her own captivity, and her primary consideration in deciding what to do was whether the risk/reward ratio was acceptable.That’s not following the rules, that’s looking out for one’s own safety; whether a different character would have made a different evaluation is a matter of individual preference.

      I’m a Stark fan and Sansa is my favorite followed by Jon and Ned, they all made some dumb decisions in the case of Sansa ( Book Version ) I disagree a bit on this part:
      If she stayed in her room as was told by her father she and Jeyne Poole may not be prisoners, it was a small chance they could get out a real small chance I say < 5%; that one small chance was removed when she disobeyed her father.
      In show it's not disclosed ( unless this year if Bran gives a reveal ).

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    296. ash,
      If I wrote the show it would only be about 3 episodes long ’cos I’d want to save all the ones I love and dispatch the ones I hate. We’d run out of story very quickly and it’d be really dull!

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    297. ash: BTW how old is she supposed to be at this stage? i was thinking closer to 16? How long has passed since the purple wedding?

      Hard to say what D&D would make her now. They’d probably say like 16 although the timeline from when she told Tyrion she was 14 until ‘current’ isn’t very long, so maybe 15.

      At the end of ADwD it’s 300 AC so book Sansa is 14 going on 15 (birth 286 AC). Most of the big events at the end of that book line up with the end of season 5. While it feels like a lot of time has passed watching the show, everything to that point was in a three year time. Jon Arryn being killed was 298 AC to Jon being stabbed in 300 AC.

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    298. I will read all the comments after adding my speculation but here goes:
      1) Jamie/Cersei – I believe they are meeting someone from the East who this site has reported, someone from Bravos to be exact. This meeting will set in motion a chain of events that this site has also reported on. I reckon this is from episode 1, or potentially episode 2.
      2+3) Lyanna Mormont & Davos – Again I think this is either episode 1 or 2. This site reported there will be a high stakes scene in Winterfell but didn’t give any further details, I will speculate based on spoilers

      this is either Jon/Davos deciding to go to Dragonstone to parlay/strike a deal with Dany or them dealing with the Karstark girl

      4) Sam/Gilly – we knew from the spoilers that this happens, pretty sure this is coming in Winds of Winter too. I’d guess this is episode 2 or 3 and may lead to Sam leaving to go to either Jon or potentially Dany with information about the White Walkers.
      5) Bran – I’m pretty sure this is them arriving at the wall, in what I suspect is episode 1, to be greeted by Ed and what’s left of the Nights watch.
      6) Tormund/Brienne – I found this interesting as it confirms Brienne returns to Winterfell yet spoiler

      we know she is in Kings Landing in episode 7 so this must be episode 1 or 2

      I would guess Pod is safe but I’ve no idea what Brienne and Pod will do this season or Tormund for that matter.
      7) The Hound – this is another really interesting one for me as it confirms the Hound is going North. But who are the soldiers, potentially knights of the Vale? Maybe members of the Brotherhood? This must surely be episode 2 or even 3.
      8) Jon – clearly looking in the crypts and fearing the fate of the Starks who went south and never returned including I suspect his mother.

      this is almost certainly episode 1 as we know Jon goes to Dragonstone in episode 3

      9) Arya – I thought this could be the twins but I’m pretty sure it’s the Inn with Hot Pie now as we know

      she returns to Winterfell and meets Nymeria in the Riverlands

      I’d be confident this is episode 1 also and it’s Melisandre who she sees, but does she kill her?
      10+) Team Dany – These must all be episode 1 or 2 and we know they are at Dragonstone, notably there are no Ironborn, Tyrells or Dornish though?

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    299. Wimsey: I think that it is pretty well established that there is not an after-life in Martinverse!We should not expect there to be one, when the original author does not believe in this stuff.

      (Yes, yes, I know: warging; however, despite fan-fictions to the contrary, that’s pretty clearly just an imprint of a human mind, not the actual mind itself, and even the imprint itself fades.)

      Oh, I just meant that as kind of projection into Dany’s mind as she’s dying…sort of mirroring the show version of her visions at the house of the Undying?

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    300. Shreyans,

      I think you could be correct, Greyworm dying would make some sense given he’s a background character and team Dany likely need to sustain some losses.

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    301. Lulus Mum: If I wrote the show it would only be about 3 episodes long ’cos I’d want to save all the ones I love and dispatch the ones I hate.

      In my show Sansa and Littlefinger are the ones killed by the White Walkers in the premiere cold open. 😉

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    302. Lulus Mum: Thinking of Brienne and character evolution, she used to be a joke to men but now has admirers in Jaime, Tormund and Houndie. She didn’t have some rom-com type make over, she stuck to her guns – well swords – did what she believed in and carried on regardless.

      I am now irresistibly led to picture the movie-cliché alternative: Brienne reaching up to take off her nerdy librarian glasses, unpin her severe bun and let her long hair down – only to be reminded that she has neither.

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    303. Lulus Mum,

      My Trilling is sending a purrrrrrrrrrr to Bert and Ernie.
      Brienne has become a role model for me – I’m facing my nerdiness in admitting that. I do hope all the best for her and Houndie, Jaime, Davos, Tyrion, Sam, Gilly, Pod… and, of course, Arya. I fear the mornings (I wake up at 4 a.m. to watch the episodes when they are first available) that might come after the death of one of them. At least I’ll know that you do the reverse breaking of the 4th wall and make things right 😉

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    304. Wimsey: The Prince that Was Promised means something; Azor Ahai does not.It would be bad adaptation to use Azor Ahai on the show rather than a descriptive title.

      Again: snapshot!As I was typing this, someone asked me something.Does that snapshot of me looking away from the computer indicate that this is a conspiracy to trick people into thinking that I don’t follow Watchers on the Wall?If the page is in front of her, then she’ll be reading it, or trying to read it at some point.

      As for it “spoiling,” the people who issued the still probably liked the shot.Chances are very good that they would not recognize that it was any sort of spoiler.Moreover, it won’t be: only a tiny, tiny fraction of show viewers read “hardcore fanchild” sites like this one.

      Unless Gilly actually reads the page on camera? After all, they took the trouble of substituting “Lord of Light” for the “R’hllor” mentioned on the actual quote from the World of Ice and Fire.

      Then again, I would expect them on the show to freely substitute “Azor Ahai” with the “Prince who was promised” or “The one who was promised” as they’ve done before…

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    305. Lulus Mum: Firannion,
      I believe historically those kind of books were often elaborately decorated. In the early Middle Ages, for example, when very few people could read or write (far fewer than in the show) books were very precious, lovingly handwritten and often there was only one copy. Only very important things were written down. I’m not a (ASoIaF) book reader but perhaps this is the show equivalent of those? The Citadel is the equivalent of places like the British Library holding priceless texts from centuries ago.

      I’m not at all objecting to the inclusion of tiny paintings, illuminated letters, ornate borders, gold leaf embossing etc., which we have all seen in medieval texts. What seems improbable to me is that a book would be so painstakingly created with so much blank space at the bottom of each page, as if intended for students to take notes or doodle. I would think that the original scribe/illustrator team would use the paper/parchment frugally, leaving only enough of a white border to be readable.

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    306. Jonsnowed:
      Shreyans,

      I think you could be correct, Greyworm dying would make some sense given he’s a background character and team Dany likely need to sustain some losses.

      I’d read that comment when the thread started but didn’t reply. For some reason it didn’t cross my mind that perhaps there is only one dragon ‘ring’ pin/clasp thing that is given to Grey Worm who then gives it to Missandei. If that is the case he could have just given it to her as a memento while he goes off to battle. However, I do think there’s a good chance he’s a fatality this season.

      not leak or even a specific spoiler material per se… but a reference to a filming thread

      I think Jacob not being one the 17 cast members present for the dragon pit scene in the finale is very telling. As general of Daenerys’ army and head of security I don’t see why he wouldn’t be there as she enters the “lion’s den.”

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    307. Firannion,
      In the Citadel library I hope, smashing the no women allowed rule which Gilly appears to have bent at least a little, depending on where exactly she is. Re: the book’s pages, my misunderstanding, I thought you meant they wouldn’t have devoted space to large decorations. If Inga’s correct and it is notes I guess it might be footnotes by the original scribe, unless someone’s been vandalising them. Perhaps Gilly’s spotted a rude doodle or some graffiti which was ignored but is the key to everything 😉

      Shy Lady Dragon,
      Sometimes you just have to introduce your own cannon. In mine, Shireen is fine and no-one can tell me otherwise! That’s partly why I like spoilers, I want to be emotionally prepared for any big shocks and in the case of that scene (someone getting burned but very definitely not a small girl) the lovely Ginevra was watching my back. I didn’t watch it live and she posted on here to tell me exactly at which point to turn it off. Same with Oberyn, I knew what was coming and am very squeemish about eyes so the second he hit the ground I shut mine. Some co-workers wished they’d been warned about the eye gouging in advance. Only people with very strong stomachs probably don’t have a single bit they didn’t think, at least temporarily, they could have done with not seeing, or at least being prepared for it 🙁

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    308. Grail King: If she stayed in her room as was told by her father she and Jeyne Poole may not be prisoners, it was a small chance they could get out a real small chance I say < 5%; that one small chance was removed when she disobeyed her father.
      In show it's not disclosed ( unless this year if Bran gives a reveal ).

      It won’t be revealed in retrospect: this is something that has to be done while it is happening in order to develop the characters. After all, this was Season 1, and much of that was devoted to developing the main characters.

      The big issue with Sansa escaping Kings Landing is that she just does not think for herself, at least not until much later in the story. I am not sure how Book 1 / Season 1 Sansa could have gotten out of there: she simply has no comprehension of what the Lannisters are like, and she still was so infatuated with Joffery that she would have resisted had, say, one of her father’s men tried to rush her out of there.

      This helped show us the huge differences between Sansa and Arya. Arya actually had much less difficulty escaping because Arya has some basic notion of how to take care of herself. Suppose that Sansa did somehow find herself out of the keep after she finally had clued onto Joffery. Er… then what? Sansa had no idea how to blend in with a crowd. She has zero idea of how to do basic things like get food and water. She almost certainly would give herself away be expecting the “small folk” to wait on her.

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    309. George: Unless Gilly actually reads the page on camera? After all, they took the trouble of substituting “Lord of Light” for the “R’hllor” mentioned on the actual quote from the World of Ice and Fire

      They might well do that: and I even expect that they will. After all, this probably will come up next year. But at that point, it is no “spoiler”: the TV show cannot spoil itself! My bet is that this is going to be one way of informing the audience about the Promised One: Sam probably knows something about the legends, and it will come up as Gilly reads through it.

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    310. Lulus Mum:
      Firannion,
      In the Citadel library I hope, smashing the no women allowed rule which Gilly appears to have bent at least a little, depending on where exactly she is.

      Well, Sam found a way to get Gilly into Castle Black; likewise he might find a way to get her into the Citadel…lol

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    311. Whoa… This comment thread!

      (considers dent in whiskey bottle, refills coffee)

      Ten Bears:
      I’ve got my own wine-infused GoT-related story to tell; maybe tomorrow.

      I’m waiting.

      Ten Bears:
      Now, even with all of the trepidation and confusion she must’ve been feeling, and the pressure of making a spur-of-moment decision…

      Wasn’t it a no-brainer?

      I certainly thought so, but it really would have been against her nature, as Sean C. keeps reminding me. Not to mention, she would have had to undergo all sorts of changes to her physical person in order for the Hound to effectively conceal her identity, and I think it would have been far more psychologically difficult for her to do such a thing than it was for Arya.

      Sean C.:
      What do you mean “made no effort to leave”? First, she did try to leave, and second, she was a hostage; she can’t be blamed for her own captivity, and her primary consideration in deciding what to do was whether the risk/reward ratio was acceptable. That’s not following the rules, that’s looking out for one’s own safety; whether a different character would have made a different evaluation is a matter of individual preference.

      I would refer you to Ten Bears’ comment above; to both of us, leaving with Sandor seemed like a no-brainer given “the risk/reward ratio” (which Ten Bears listed exhaustively in his/her original post). But as you correctly point out, “a different character [might] have made a different evaluation.” (And of course, Ten Bears has not read the books, so for purposes of this post, we’re only discussing Show!Sansa and Show!Sandor.)

      Just to be clear: As I wrote in response to another commenter, I don’t blame Sansa for being Sansa, and certainly not “for her own captivity”; and as I wrote in response to an earlier post of yours, given that she *is* Sansa, neither do I blame her for choosing not to take really great risks, because a person who’s not a natural risk-taker has no intrinsic, practiced sense of how to take risks—and may well endanger herself even more by stepping outside of her decision-making comfort zone. (Gods, I hope that makes sense. I’m not sure that, in terms of getting my thoughts onscreen, late-morning sobriety is an improvement over early-morning inebriation.)

      Returning to the idea of what different characters might do, how the Stark sisters make “different evaluation[s]” is a long-running thread in both the books and the show, and perhaps nowhere are their tendencies more clear than in the different choices each one makes when it comes to Sandor. Sansa has never had any reason to fear him; in fact, she has numerous reasons not only to trust him, but to believe he would risk his own life to save hers. Arya, on the other hand, has a very tangible reason to hate his guts, in that her only association with him is the death of Mycah. And yet, following the fiasco at the Twins Arya realizes that he isn’t in it just for the money—that despite her continued hatred of him, he isn’t going to hurt her and she’s far better off under his protection than in any other scenario immediately available to her.

      Again, I don’t blame Sansa for her choices, and given the stark (no pun intended) differences between her and Arya, cannot truly say she would have been better off making any number of different choices.

      Clob:
      I was guessing “Dumber Half” like Wolfish refers to Better Half.

      Saner Half, not “Better Half.” Sanity isn’t necessarily “better”… 😉

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    312. Clob:

      I think Jacob not being one the 17 cast members present for the dragon pit scene in the finale is very telling.

      Unless he had been

      sent on a mission, as her general, to take Casterly Rock at that point. But if that were the case, presumably Tyrion would have gone with him to show where the potential points of infiltration via the drainage system are. So I suspect that your surmise is correct. As long as he gets a ‘good’ death, I am okay with losing Grey Worm.

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    313. Lulus Mum: Perhaps Gilly’s spotted a rude doodle or some graffiti which was ignored but is the key to everything

      Know what would be really fun fanservice? To have one of them briefly peruse the Half-Blood Prince’s marked-up copy of Advanced Potion-Making and set it aside as probably unimportant.

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    314. Wimsey:
      This helped show us the huge differences between Sansa and Arya. Arya actually had much less difficulty escaping because Arya has some basic notion of how to take care of herself. Suppose that Sansa did somehow find herself out of the keep after she finally had clued onto Joffrey. Er… then what? Sansa had no idea how to blend in with a crowd. She has zero idea of how to do basic things like get food and water. She almost certainly would give herself away be expecting the “small folk” to wait on her.

      I wrote something to this effect (although not in nearly as much detail) in a comment that’s awaiting moderation. I’m in the contingent that tends to believe she would have been better off making an escape with the Hound, but I must acknowledge that the main problem with this scenario would have been the physical and behavioral changes she would have had to have made in order to be effectively disguised. I’m not sure she could have pulled it off.

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    315. Firannion: Know what would be really fun fanservice? To have one of them briefly peruse the Half-Blood Prince’s marked-up copy of Advanced Potion-Making and set it aside as probably unimportant.

      That would be hilarious!
      Presumably they obviously would need J.K. Rowling’s permission…
      Not that I think D&D would really do it…
      We might see a stray copy of “The Hedge Knight”, “The Ice Dragon” or even “The Winds of Winter” scattered haphazardly about, just for fun, though…

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    316. George: Presumably they obviously would need J.K. Rowling’s permission…
      Not that I think D&D would really do it…

      Well, they did go to the trouble of having the taunts of the French castle guard from Monty Python and the Holy Grail translated into Low Valyrian so they could put them into the mouth of the champion defending the gates of Meereen. And the book wouldn’t have to look identical to the one in the Potter movie; it could just have the same title (which is too generic to be copyright-protected) and be written by some bastard half-Targaryen from the Blackfyre Rebellion or something. Serious Potterheads would get it.

      The question is more: Are D & D into Rowling enough to think of such a wink to a crossover fantasy fandom?

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