How an ASOIAF Fan Learned to Stop Worrying and Love S6E4’s Final Scene

Daenerys Targaryen is not fireproof. How could the showrunners reuse a plot device from Season 1? Fan-Fiction!

These are the common complaints that A Song of Ice and Fire fans have on Daenerys’ fateful confrontation with the khals from Game of Thrones’ “Book of the Stranger.” It is also a scene that I, myself, had trouble swallowing the first time I watched it.

However, upon re-watching the scene and re-reading Daenerys’ final chapter from A Dance with Dragons, I believe that this scene is in keeping with the best traditions of A Song of Ice and Fire and visually communicates Dany’s internal thematic transformation extraordinarily well, much as Game of Thrones has successfully done time and again.

Themes in Dany’s Journey

Outwardly, Daenerys’ journey has been one of triumph, forward progression and by the end of A Dance with Dragons/Season 5, a thematic return towards the start of her character arc. Rising from frightened girl married off to a brutal warlord to mother of dragons and powerful Queen of Meereen before returning to her Dothraki roots, Daenerys has run the gamut of experiences.

Inwardly though, Dany’s character arc is one of internal struggle over her identity. Throughout the first five books/seasons, but especially in A Storm of Swords, A Dance with Dragons and Seasons 4 and 5 of Game of Thrones, Daenerys struggles with who she is and who she should be. Is she Aegon the Conqueror Reborn: the Mother of Dragons spitting fire and blood against her enemies? Or is she the mhysa, attempting to peacefully rule a divided and angry people?

This question of who she is dominates her internal monologue in A Song of Ice and Fire and is often explored visually or in dialogue in Game of Thrones through thorny moral issues of vengeance and her dragons in Meereen.

How Game of Thrones Effectively Communicates Daenerys’ Conflict from ASOIAF

One of the best examples of how George R.R. Martin and Game of Thrones attempted to show Dany’s character journey is the crucifixion scene from A Storm of Swords/Season 4. If you’ll recall from that scene in the books and the show, Daenerys has conquered Meereen, but along the way she’s witnessed the horrors along the road. The Great Masters crucified 163 children to the mileposts to Meereen. So, when she finally takes Meereen, she fatefully decides to exact vengeance for the deaths of the children by the Great Masters by crucifying 163 Meereenese. 

In A Storm of Swords, the scene occurs entirely from the perspective of Daenerys herself and much of it occurs inside her head. In her internal monologue, Dany contrasts her catharsis brought by vengeance with her disgust when she saw what that very same vengeance wrought:

She had them nailed to wooden posts around the plaza, each man pointing at the next. The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon. But later, when she passed the men dying on the posts, when she heard their moans and smelled their bowels and blood . . .

Dany put the glass aside, frowning. It was just. It was. I did it for the children. (A Storm of Swords, Daenerys VI)

In Game of Thrones, Season 4, the scene had to be played out visually. Instead of Daenerys internalizing her thoughts, Barristan Selmy stands in as the voice for mercy and reminder that “sometimes it is better to answer injustice with mercy.” Daenerys, in full avenging dragon mode, responds:

I will answer justice with justice.”

The important takeaway from both A Storm of Swords and Game of Thrones, Season 4 is that both communicated the satisfaction and righteousness of vengeance as well as communicated the horror of the act.

The Thematic Importance of Chaining the Dragons

However, this crucifixion scene in both the books and show stands in contrast to how Daenerys attempts to govern Meereen. She faces a mounting insurgency by the Sons of the Harpy and finds to her horror that her dragons kill innocent children. This outward struggle mirrors her internal conflict. As a queen, Dany’s conflict with herself broadly revolves around the concept of dragon (avenging conqueror) versus mhysa (peaceful ruler willing to make hard sacrifices).

This conflict is explored in detail at various points in A Dance with Dragons and Game of Thrones, but the way it’s explored differs. For purposes of brevity, let’s explore one pivotal scene found in both Game of Thrones and A Dance with Dragons: Dany’s chaining of the dragons. In both mediums, Daenerys’s decision to chain her dragons plays a major role in her crisis of identity.

To recap, a man approaches Daenerys and presents the charred bones of his daughter to Dany. To her horror, the man recounts that Drogon, one of Dany’s dragons, burned and ate his daughter. To prevent this from occurring again, Daenerys decides to chain Viserion and Rhaegal (Drogon has fled the scene of his crime). However necessary this act might have been to prevent the loss of innocent life, the act is incredibly painful to Daenerys. By chaining her dragons, Daenerys imprisons her only “children.” However, its a deeply symbolic act on Dany’s part as well. By chaining her dragons, Dany is chaining her identity as a draconic conqueror and restraining her impulse as a “dragon.”

In Game of Thrones, Daenerys, herself, leads her dragons into the dragon pit and places the iron collars around the necks of Rhaegal and Viserion. This is beautifully communicated by Ramin Djawadi’s mournful riff of Daenerys’ main theme as well and by Emilia Clarke’s sorrowful facial acting and back-turn/walk away from her dragons. However, when she turns back at the end of the scene towards her dragons, it signals that she has not fully embraced the imprisonment of her dragons. She pines for her dragons much as he pines to reclaim her chained identity.

Dany’s decision to chain her dragons in A Dance with Dragons is communicated almost entirely in internal monologue in the books. In fact, it occurs entirely off-page between Daenerys’ first and second chapters in A Dance with Dragons. However, when she finally thinks about her decision, it grates against her, but she rationalizes it as a means of chaining her own monstrosity:

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.
(A Dance with Dragons, Daenerys II)

Like Dany’s final turn and horrified look back into the dragonpit from Game of Thrones, Season 4, Dany is extraordinarily conflicted over chaining her dragons in A Dance with Dragons, but she justifies it as part of the price of peace in Meereen. However, this price aggravates Daenerys. In writing A Dance with Dragons, Martin layered Dany’s thematic conflict with metaphors of the dragons straining against their chains:

Down in the pit, Viserion had snapped one of his chains; he and Rhaegal grew more savage every day. (A Dance with Dragons, Daenerys IV)

“My children have grown wild and angry in the dark.” (A Dance with Dragons, Daenerys VIII)

This in turn mirrors Dany’s growing anger over the compromises she makes for peace in Meereen:

I hate this, thought Daenerys Targaryen. How did this happen, that I am drinking and smiling with men I’d sooner flay? (A Dance with Dragons, Daenerys VIII)

This is peace, she told herself. This is what I wanted, what I worked for, this is why I married Hizdahr. So why does it taste so much like defeat? (A Dance with Dragons, Daenerys VIII)

Both in the show and in A Dance with Dragons, these conflicts all come to a head in Daznak’s Pit as Daenerys flies from problems in Meereen towards a return to her beginnings. In the show, Daenerys’ relief as she leaves Meereen is clearly evident in Emilia Clarke’s facial acting.  She’s leaving the battle behind much as she’s leaving Meereen behind.

In A Dance with Dragons, Dany identifies the feeling of flying away from Meereen as “the song of freedom.” It’s a happy experience for her but it’s also a thematically consequential one too.

Resolving Dany’s Internal Thematic Conflict 

Turning towards her encounter with the khals, we see Daenerys make a fateful thematic turn that once again mirrors her internal conflict from A Dance with Dragons. Some fans of ASOIAF (to include myself initially) looked at this scene as a rehash of her march into Drogo’s funeral pyre from Season 1/Dany’s last chapter in A Game of Thrones. However, while there is a certain visual comparison to be made (a “conscious echo of 1×10” in the words of Dan Weiss) to Drogo’s funeral pyre scene, the better thematic comparison is Dany’s final chapter from A Dance with Dragons.

As we’ve seen time and again, Game of Thrones has conveyed many of the themes seen mostly in the thoughts of characters in A Song of Ice and Fire through visuals, music and invented dialogue. In this instance, the showrunners opted for all three to show Dany’s decisive turn towards fire and blood.

In A Dance with Dragons though, George R.R. Martin brought Dany’s crisis of identity to a head through a trippy internal monologue out on the Dothraki Sea. At the start of her chapter, Daenerys is with Drogon and attempts to fly back to Meereen. However, Drogon repeatedly brings her back to the Dothraki Sea:

She would sooner have returned to Meereen on dragon’s wings, to be sure. But that was a desire Drogon did not seem to share. (A Dance with Dragons, Daenerys X)

The writing on Martin’s part here is a literary cue that Dany’s thematic journey cannot take her back to Meereen yet. Why? Because she has an identity and a purpose to resolve on the Dothraki Sea first.

Similarly, Daenerys refuses to scamper away from Vaes Dothrak with Daario and Jorah in “Book of the Dead.” She certainly has a plot purpose in not running (gaining a giant khalasar), but there’s a thematic purpose too: accepting her role as a dragon and taking what is hers by fire and blood.

Back in A Dance with Dragons, Daenerys finally decides to walk towards Meereen. Along the way, she eats some mystery berries (they likely contain hallucinogenic properties) and begins her vision quest on the Dothraki Sea. In her mind, she encounters ghostly apparitions of Viserys Targaryen, Jorah Mormont and Quaithe. The literary purpose of the ghosts of Dany’s past is to persuade her to abandon the mhysa and re-embrace fire and blood.

In probably the most powerful and decisive dialogue in the books, Daenerys finally gives in to her desire to abandon Meereen and become a dragon again:

You took Meereen, he told her, yet still you lingered. “To be a queen.”

You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros. “It is such a long way,” she complained. “I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.”

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass. (A Dance with Dragons, Daenerys X)

The amusing portion at the end where Dany talks to the swaying grass is George RR Martin hinting to us that she is almost certainly hallucinating one or all of the ghosts she encounters. The greater thematic point, though, is that Daenerys has now embraced her fire and blood destiny. The end of her chapter shows that she’s no peacemaker. She’s a warrior, a conqueror and her stay in Essos is coming to an end. Daenerys has embraced violence to move forward, and this will have significant consequences in the books to come.

I have to imagine that Game of Thrones’ showrunners and writers agonized over how to portray Dany’s turn to fire and blood and perhaps tried to engage in some writing workshops to work through a few scenarios on how to make this transition as smoothly and cleanly in a visual medium. So much of what Dany discovers in her last chapter in A Dance with Dragons occurs inside her head.

The showrunners chose to use Dany’s immunity to fire as a plot-vehicle to speed her claim of a giant khalasar forward. Dany’s immunity to fire seems to have also been used as a means to visually show her shift in identity. In burning the khals at the end of the episode and emerging triumphant before a bowing congregation of Dothraki as Djawadi’s score soared above it, Daenerys revealed her turn way from the woman who sadly chained her dragons to avoid the deaths of more innocents towards someone willing to embrace violence. She had been reborn in Vaes Dothrak as Daenerys the Conqueror: the woman who will take what is hers by fire and blood.

It was an effective adaptation of a beautiful chapter from A Dance with Dragons, and the seismic thematic import will certainly be felt for the rest of Game of Thrones.

Conclusion

Now, of course, given that we don’t know for a certainty what Dany’s thoughts were at that scene, we can’t be fully sure that this is the exact note that the showrunners wanted to hit. However, we can speculate with some certainty that Daenerys’ journey will take her from Essos to Westeros. But before she can even arrive back in Meereen, she has one more fateful encounter she will have to make: Drogon.

Drogon provides both a literal vehicle for her journey back as well as a thematic vessel to drive Daenerys towards a greater sense of her fire and blood purpose and destiny. Drogon is Dany’s physical connection to her draconic identity and Daenerys will need to encounter Drogon again to solidify her thematic dragon connection. From the trailers, we know that Drogon is returning.

With Drogon’s return and Daenerys embracing her thematic purpose as a conqueror, her arc will lurch towards violence and war in Essos and eventually (finally) Westeros. In this, I believe that Game of Thrones will continue its stellar record of capturing the great themes revolving around Daenerys Targaryen’s destiny and purpose.

For more reading on Dany’s journey in A Dance with Dragons, I recommend the Meereenese Blot’s “Untangling the Meereenese Knot: Dany’s Struggle With Herself” as well as “Dragons Plant No Trees” on reddit. Many thanks to @ManuclearBomb and Game of Owns for inspiring this article! 

BryndenBFish is the creator of the Wars and Politics of Ice and Fire Blog a blog dedicated to political and military analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire. He can be found on twitter as @BryndenBFish. 

437 responses

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    1. Didn’t one of the khals that was immolated tell Daenerys “You can’t fight in here, this is the war room!”? 😀 (sorry, couldn’t resist)

      Excellent article, BFish! Have to say I completely agree with your conclusions.

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    2. That’s a great point, actually. After the show omitted the hallucinations in the Dothraki Sea, I had wondered how they were going to depict Dany’s transition from Mhysa back to Mother of Dragons —Back to an avenging dragon, back to Fire and Blood. This was a perfect way to do so!

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    3. Great write-up Brynden. It is great when someone who initially disliked a scene can re-watch it, and appreciate it a second time rather than just completely writing it off at first glance, refusing to re-watch it, and spouting off with book-purist jargon.

      As you say a lot of book fans came up with statements like “Daenerys Targaryen is not fireproof.” Whilst this is true in the books, I will stress again that this is the show, not the books. At no point during the show is it suggested that Dany is not fireproof. It doesn’t matter one bit what happens in the books at all; it is the overall themes that should be similar, and broadly speaking they are.

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    4. Ok. I try not to be smug, here or anywhere, now or ever, but…. This wasn’t obvious? From start? To book readers who knew for ages what the next step in Dany’s evolution would be?

      I mean, my first instinctive reaction, and I think even my first instinctive comment, was something in the vein of ‘Fire and Blood, baby, Conqueror Dany is back in play’. And that’s exactly where ADWD Dany is heading as well (albeit much more shittily and slowly). So, wth…? (Really not trying to be smug – I’m more surprised than anything else.)

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    5. Knight of the Walkers,

      Yes, it’s nice to see someone who is open minded.

      I understand the complaints, I don’t share them, obviously…

      But they should have complained in S1 too then, because she is like this since EP1 of S1….. People just refused to admit it, for various reasons..

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    6. No hate please, but that burning scene was so stupid. For as long as that hut had existed, they had probably had fire inside of it. WITHOUT ANY FIRES!!! It took just a Little glowing fire to burn it down in seconds.

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    7. I think the whole Dany being fireproof thing is ridiculous. I think what D&D have been doing to the story over the past 2 seasons is unfortunate. But there is nothing I can do to make them show the books and their audience greater respect. D&D are now making the dumbed down version of the books. The first four seasons were the watered down version of the books but still, essentially, the books. That’s over now. And I’m not totally fine with it, but I understand it and I’ll keep watching and enjoying the cliche fan service version of a brilliant book series.

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    8. I think that maybe the lesson here is not to get too attached to Martin’s metainfo, if this prevents one from noticing the obvious in the narrative itself….

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    9. Yaga,

      They were to bothered by the change itself, to look at what that change means and symbolizes.

      I’m actually very suprised, in a very good way, by Brynden’s post. It shows that there are still people with a open mind who can change their minds and not simply dismiss a thing they didn’t like and refusing to look at it any other way.

      Kudos for that Brynden!

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    10. Only thing that bothered me was the logistics of the last scene. There were controlled fires near the walls, so it doesn’t seem like it was such a flammable structure that was just ready to go. And if the pitch in the braziers was itself so volatile, the flames should have been raging. Don’t understand why spreading it out gets it more excited. It just seemed unrealistic that pushing over a couple braziers makes the place go up in flame so fast. I would have liked a hint at some preparation in the space to make it work as such. But, I loved it for the story and choose to look past it…

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    11. On a character and visual level, I adored the scene
      The logistics did bother me a bit,
      but I don’t give a fuck whether or not Dany is fireproof…

      Maybe the blood magic she did when hatching the Dragon made her fireproof… whatever, its magic for fucks sake

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    12. HelloThere,

      She was like this before the dragons birth.

      The scolding bath scene and the burning egg scene prove it.

      Did the dragons birth ”enhanced” these powers? It could.

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    13. Mihnea,

      again… its magic, right?

      Why aren’t book readers complaining that all of Bran’s flashbacks aren’t filmed from the perspective of a tree???

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    14. Why are people complaining about her being fireproof? Wasn’t she fireproof as well in season 1? I don’t remember anyone complaining about it back then?

      If she was fireproof in S1, it makes sense she is still fireproof now, doesn’t it?

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    15. Just a thought, when I was re-reading ADWD, I got the feeling that she’s obviously not fireprof, but at least, she has like +100 fire resistance :P. In Daznak she was really close to dragon fire and got what, no hair, a few burns in her hands that already are healing (as Daenerys X describes) but not really much for being that exposed. I mean Drogon didn’t breath on her directly but she does recall that it’s so hot it would be enough to blister her..
      In Daenerys X she does compare the events in Daznak with the pire, she says fire didn’t touch her – just like in the pire. I don’t know, it sounded weird to me to make that comparison, but maybe it’s just me.
      I’m re reading the books now in English (because I bet by now you can tell it’s not my native lang lol) because I feel like sometimes things get a bit different in translation, and maybe this is the case with those Dany chapters and I missinterpreted those things. But it sounded really ambigous to me and made me think about the fire stuff.
      I really liked the scene by the way. I was expecting Drogon, but it was nice to see her do her thingy.
      Great post!

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    16. Great write up… my theory on why they did this and where it’s all going . …

      in a word Dragonbinder . Dany needs to get the dragons under control . the books have already demonstrated using the horn is deadly . I view the TV show as Cliff notes version of the story, where they compress things down into more digestable pieces, so they need to make it obvious she can use the horn without suffering the effects .

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    17. I have no problem with Dany being fire-proof. In my opinion, it was just a cheesy scene and it felt redundant. Dany always has these big, end of episode set pieces where she has a victory and amasses a new army. Feels silly after a while.

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    18. I think I would have enjoyed the scene more if it had played out differently, as opposed to Dany concocting a last minute plan because the Super Daario Brothers arrived miraculously and coincidentally right on the night of her trial. It’s very convenient and predictable. I would have enjoyed seeing her build relationships with all those other widows and win them over, so that they can help her implement a plan. I would have liked to have seen her talk to the widows about their struggles. I know we got the Lazaren (spelling?) widow, but that was for like 20 seconds. Why not make use of other Dothraki widows and develop them as characters? It would have been hilarious for the Super Daario Brothers to arrive at VD, only to see Dany with the widows in charge and not in need of their help.

      “Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.”

      I really want to see interior monologues like this one turned into dialogue. It would give her character more vulnerability. I want to see her verbalize her worries about what she’s doing wrong in Meereen and what she needs to fix to not fail in Westeros. On the show she’s always stuck in badass queen/khalessi mode, and I want to see some other sides of her character.

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    19. I enjoyed the scene. It would have been great if the writers had included Daenerys getting back her menstruation cycle before burning the place down. It would of fit perfectly with the fire and blood theme. I suppose the show may still include this aspect of dany’s story since it fulfills part of Mirri Maz Duur’s prophecy.

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    20. My main issues with the scene are logic and execution related. I’m sure 99% of people here will disagree with me, but here it goes anyway. First of all, we know Targaryens are not immune to fire, in books or show. So why is Daenerys immune ? She is just inherently magical ? Why ? The only way I can swallow this is if she is in fact Azor Ahai reborn and has some inherent magical abilities that no other Targaryen has. Second, is she also immune to debris falling on her head ? We saw heavy pieces of wood falling on some of the Khals, why couldn’t one of those pieces of wood have fallen on Dany and knocked her out cold ?
      Also, why does she look immaculate ? At the end of the first season they did a wonderful job of covering her in soot and ash. But here her skin looks amazingly clean, as does her hair. Obviously I’m nitpicking, but attention to detail is important.
      Naturally, I won’t even get into the absurd speed with which the hut caught on fire, and climbed the stairs of the hut.
      The Khals are also weirdly weak apparently, since one would think they could have easily busted out of there with their combined strength. The walls weren’t solid wood, there were openings and windows.

      Another point that really bothers me is this idea that all the dothraki are going to worship her now. Jorah said there were 100 thousand of them, and the dothraki hate magic. They should be calling her a witch. You expect me to believe 100 thousand dothraki are going to accept that this witch slaughtered all of their leaders ? I’m sure some would, either because of fear or because they think she is a God, but surely some of those 100 thousand dothraki would be pissed that she murdered their Khals. After all, it only takes one guy to walk up and kill her. How could Daenerys be certain that not one single guy would have an issue with her ? The whole thing is just highly implausible. I understand that they wanted to show her doing something without her dragons, and I appreciate that aspect of it, but honestly in this case I think having Drogon there would have made their instant submission more believable. If only because they would all be scared to death of the dragon, and none of them would have any weapons to fight it even if they dared.

      Before anyone tells me I’m a show hater, let me just say I love this series to death which is why I want it to be as good as it can be. I love the books and the show. And I loved episode 4. Dany’s scene was good. It just doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny, and this is becoming a trend.
      Feel free to disagree with me as passionately as you want, let’s just try to stay away from personal attacks and name calling.
      And if any of you have good, sound explanations for the logical issues I’ve raised, feel free to tell me. Believe me, I don’t want to have any criticisms of the show. I would love nothing more than to be able to say the show is perfect and share in people’s excitement about Dany’s big moment. I just see too many problems (though most are admittedly minor) with it to do that.

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    21. GeekFurious:
      I think the whole Dany being fireproof thing is ridiculous. I think what D&D have been doing to the story over the past 2 seasons is unfortunate. But there is nothing I can do to make them show the books and their audience greater respect. D&D are now making the dumbed down version of the books. The first four seasons were the watered down version of the books but still, essentially, the books. That’s over now. And I’m not totally fine with it, but I understand it and I’ll keep watching and enjoying the cliche fan service version of a brilliant book series.

      So 1 line of your post is dedicated to the article/subject and the rest is a D&D diatribe?

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    22. I had no issues with the Dothraki submitting to her.

      A fire burning all their leaders to death, yet this girl miraculously walking out unharmed… seems like a god-like moment rather than witch craft.

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    23. HelloThere,

      Agreed.
      She killed their Khals!! That is the entire point, they respect power. If the Khal dies, they follow the stronger Khal!

      She is a living godess to them now. Of course they will follow her.

      We don’t have time to see inter-dothraki politics on insignifiant background characters. The books can do that. Not a TV show.
      You focus on the main characters, not a random dothraki dude who may not like Dany.

      We have 15 houres left of the story, we don’t have time to waste on background characters or on dothraki politics.

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    24. Dany being fireproof is a neither here nor there argument.

      Why was Bran born with green seeing ability? Magic… thats all it is, damn it.
      If Dany was fireproof in the books, none of you would be complaining.

      Now the logistical aspect of the scene, those are valid complains (tho i view those as nitpicks, others might not)

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    25. Markus Stark,

      I share some of those concerns as well. What’s stopping those Khals from breaking a window and jumping out? Or what’s stopping any of those Khals from jumping on her and breaking her neck? I get that the showrunners want to speed up the storyline (we all do), but that doesn’t mean logic gets thrown out the window.

      The show has also established that Dothraki hate magic, witches, and think that VD is sacred and blood shouldn’t be spilled there. She just displayed magic, burned a sacred temple and had Jorah and Daario slit the throats of the Dothraki soldiers guarding the door. Will there be any consequences for these laws getting broken, or does everyone follow her blindly?

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    26. Flayed Potatoes,

      she used blood magic to hatch her dragon eggs, she burned miri maz dur alive while she screamed… and yet Drogos blood riders all submitted to her (even though they ridiculed her minutes ago)….

      Tho, I do agree a few hundred is different than an entire horde… but still…

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    27. HelloThere,

      Some are, but the difference is that as you say, it’s magic. Seeing the past is seeing the past, whether from a tree’s perspective or not. With the immunity thing, the problem is more the reason for this immunity. Other Targs are not immune to fire on the show. So why does Dany have this special ability ? That’s the main thing, to me at least.

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    28. They also don’t know she burned the temple…. All they know is a great fire killed all their leaders, yet this one girl miraculously climbed out.. thats a god-like moment

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    29. Markus Stark,

      Because she is AA/TPTWP…call it whatever you want..

      The red priestess will without a doubt say this next episode.

      Her being a Targaryan is irrelevent to this.

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    30. HelloThere,

      Exactly.

      Jesus ”walked on water” and ”turned it into wine” and without a doubt in his times witchery was frowned on.

      Yet people followed him.

      There is a diferrence in witchcraft and what Dany did.

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    31. GeekFurious,

      Dumbed down is right. If I can just make reference to one thing off the subject that illustrates more of the dumb stuff: It’s with the coming of winter and perpetual darkness that food becomes unavailable and people will starve unless they’ve put enough away in storage. (Which no one has in the show.) We’ve already heard from Tyrion when he was still in Kings Landing and Master of Coin that Tywin squandered all the Crown’s money and needed the alliance with the Tyrells to keep funding their wars. Stannis did the same by going to the Iron Bank of Braavos to borrow gold to fund an army. And indeed, in the books, Stannis’ army is left starving outside the gates of Winterfell because they have nothing to eat. Yet nothing has been said about the supply situation since! I KNOW this is a real problem in real life! How can it go ignored in the show? You don’t know how much this type of dumbing down bothers the hell out of me. And I expect a lot more of it in the future.

      I am not a book purist and accept that the show is different, but come on!!! Please give SOME of the fans some credit for having the ability to think.

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    32. HelloThere,

      The Starks married people with warging genes from what I remember, so that’s where Bran got that gift from. Green sight….I don’t know if that was in the Stark family, but Jojen had green sight as well, I believe. And there’s also Bloodraven, so Bran isn’t the only one in the universe. In the books, almost all the Stark kids are wargs with the exception of Sansa (since her wolf died early). The show is keeping Bran as the only warg in the family it seems.

      Just to add: I’m not against Dany being immune to fire, but I see people bring up Bran in comparison and the situations aren’t exactly the same. Dany has a different heritage and for all we know her fire immunity could be related to some of the prophecies in the show and books, especially since many of her family members died because of fire. I see Bran’s situation as slightly different.

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    33. Markus Stark,

      I can agree or at least acknowledge your reasons for your 2nd (I like the scene very much, but the fact that the people behind the temple kneel, bugs me a lot) and 3rd argument…but the first is a bit weird. There is no evidence in the show (or in the books that I remember) that she is not immune to fire (except from some GRRM comment in an interview). In fact, the show goes out of its way to show she is actually immune to fire way back in the first episode as has been mentioned. Now, this may be a difference between the books and show (if GRRM manages to write another one), but in show canon is not in any way a continuity problem.

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    34. I’m surprised no one has mentioned the prophecy from the House of Undying in the books:

      . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .

      This would seem to be the one for death, assuming this will be in the book as well.

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    35. Markus Stark:
      My main issues with the scene are logic and execution related. I’m sure 99% of people here will disagree with me, but here it goes anyway. First of all, we know Targaryens are not immune to fire, in books or show. So why is Daenerys immune ? She is just inherently magical ? Why ? The only way I can swallow this is if she is in fact Azor Ahai reborn and has some inherent magical abilities that no other Targaryen has. Second, is she also immune to debris falling on her head ? We saw heavy pieces of wood falling on some of the Khals, why couldn’t one of those pieces of wood have fallen on Dany and knocked her out cold ?
      Also, why does she look immaculate ? At the end of the first season they did a wonderful job of covering her in soot and ash. But here her skin looks amazingly clean, as does her hair. Obviously I’m nitpicking, but attention to detail is important.
      Naturally, I won’t even get into the absurd speed with which the hut caught on fire, and climbed the stairs of the hut.
      The Khals are also weirdly weak apparently, since one would think they could have easily busted out of there with their combined strength. The walls weren’t solid wood, there were openings and windows.

      Another point that really bothers me is this idea that all the dothraki are going to worship her now. Jorah said there were 100 thousand of them, and the dothraki hate magic. They should be calling her a witch. You expect me to believe 100 thousand dothraki are going to accept that this witch slaughtered all of their leaders ? I’m sure some would, either because of fear or because they think she is a God, but surely some of those 100 thousand dothraki would be pissed that she murdered their Khals. After all, it only takes one guy to walk up and kill her. How could Daenerys be certain that not one single guy would have an issue with her ? The whole thing is just highly implausible. I understand that they wanted to show her doing something without her dragons, and I appreciate that aspect of it, but honestly in this case I think having Drogon there would have made their instant submission more believable. If only because they would all be scared to death of the dragon, and none of them would have any weapons to fight it even if they dared.

      Before anyone tells me I’m a show hater, let me just say I love this series to death which is why I want it to be as good as it can be. I love the books and the show. And I loved episode 4. Dany’s scene was good. It just doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny, and this is becoming a trend.
      Feel free to disagree with me as passionately as you want, let’s just try to stay away from personal attacks and name calling.
      And if any of you have good, sound explanations for the logical issues I’ve raised, feel free to tell me. Believe me, I don’t want to have any criticisms of the show. I would love nothing more than to be able to say the show is perfect and share in people’s excitement about Dany’s big moment. I just see too many problems (though most are admittedly minor) with it to do that.

      Markus Stark:
      First of all, we know Targaryens are not immune to fire, in books or show. So why is Daenerys immune ? She is just inherently magical ? Why ?

      Why can Bran Warg? Why can the White Walkers raise the dead? Why can Warlocks of Quarth do Warlock stuff? Why do some Gods seem to work and others don’t? Why are the seasons irregular? Why did magic seem leave the world? Why is it coming back? Why was “blood magic” a sufficient reason for Dany to emerge unscathed from fire and birth dragons?

      The fact is we don’t know answers to hundreds of questions. I don’t see why Dany being fireproof is any more hard to swallow than the other fantastical, unexplained aspects of the show. All I care about is that the show is logically consistent, and from episode 1, Dany has been shown to be fire/heat resistant. It’s like that in the books too. So ask yourself why you are ok with her being fire resistant in the books (as someone else pointed out, she is better able to handle fire than others in the books) without explanation?

      Markus Stark:
      Second, is she also immune to debris falling on her head ? We saw heavy pieces of wood falling on some of the Khals, why couldn’t one of those pieces of wood have fallen on Dany and knocked her out cold ?

      Why was she able to withstand falling debris in the finale of season 1? That funeral prior had huge logs on top. Shouldn’t those have killed her? If you didn’t have a problem with it then, why do you have a problem with it now?

      Markus Stark:

      Another point that really bothers me is this idea that all the dothraki are going to worship her now. Jorah said there were 100 thousand of them, and the dothraki hate magic. They should be calling her a witch. You expect me to believe 100 thousand dothraki are going to accept that this witch slaughtered all of their leaders ?

      It was established in the very first season that the Dothraki follow strength and move on from one Khal to the next, following whoever killed the previous leader. She killed all of the Khals. Who do they follow now, but the one who proved strength beyond imagination?

      Also, pay attention to the scene where the former Khaleesi is talking with Dany. She asks her “is it true that you have dragons?” which suggests that it is going around that this unique looking foreigner is different somehow, special even. They know she isn’t a random witch. When they see her emerge from an inferno, they see that the rumors that were already going around were not just rumors. This person is special.

      I will look forward to seeing if there is any dissent in later episodes. I too think there should be some Dothraki that aren’t on board, and she’ll make quick work of them, but overall I disagree that their first thoughts would be to murder this God-like creature emerging from a burning temple. That would be a religious like experience, and scary as hell, and if some bowed, I could see most of the rest falling in line.

      Most of your points aren’t unreasonable, even if a few are nitpicks, but I do think you should ask yourself why some of the aspects of her scene bother you over others, when they are essentially the same as other aspects of the show.

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    36. HelloThere,

      If Dany was fireproof in the books, I would question why. It’s not like I think the books are perfect. And as far as we know, Bran wasn’t born with this ability. It appears to be “unlocked” after a traumatic experience. Jojen had visions after almost dying, and Bran started having them after his fall. Besides we are going to learn more about why Bran is special. After all, Bloodraven has been waiting for him for a reason.

      But the issue remains, why is Dany the only Targaryen ever to be fireproof ? Unless she is Azor Ahai reborn, I just don’t see why she would be special.

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    37. I actually prefer Dany being fireproof, rather than the hatching the dragons being a one time thing. In the show, they’ve shown several instances of Dany being immune, which built up to the finale. In the books, it was too Deus Ex Machina. I’m not even sure how she did it. I know some people say blood magic, but how did it work? Who performed the magic? If it was Dany, why hasn’t she been able to perform any magic since.

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    38. jennyofoldstones,

      I hope it gets mentioned on the show too. I find the economic issues fascinating. The Iron Bank must have lost a ton of money because of Stannis, for example. How are they getting it back?

      The Crown owes a lot of money to the Lannisters, so I assume Tyrion could try and get some of that money back if he helps Dany get on the throne. That would be a hilarious conversation.

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    39. I do not think it is certainly proven Dany is mot fireproof in the books. What Martin said is that Targaryens are not, and Dany was “probably not”. Dany could be fireproof if she is Azor Ahai and the Lord of Light’s chosen. Dany was burned by dragonfire only in the books, dragonfire is magical in nature and much hotter than normal fire. Do I believe this, I do not know, but it is a possiblity so I do not dismiss it completely.

      I disagree with BryndenBFish about Dany’s future arch and her personality and I always have but it was quite well written. I think she will turn towards war but this is not an indiation of some deeper darkness in her arch, GRRM is not a complete pasifist and even Robb used fire and blood. There is a recent Game of Thrones reddit post about Dany and breakeking of the Wheel recarding this scene and the end of the last season if you what to read an interesting analysis. Fire being a option for to break and win over the corrupt and immoral systems like the dothraki after she failed in Meereen with playing by the rules. Dany is not perfect but that makes her a great and realistic charcater not a future villain, wrestling over moral dimemmas is what all great characters in this series deal with. She could be what her father should have been rather some new version.

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    40. Mihnea,

      Meh, I think most people would at least try to get in a position to see why the fuck people are kneeling in front of a burning building. It is not like they think some immune-to-fire Emilia Clarke just walked out of it. Probably just one of those CGI things that gets noticed too late or ignored (it is not that important since most viewers focus on the front of the temple anyway).

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    41. jennyofoldstones,

      Yeah, endlessly focusing on logistics is the best way to tell a story.

      Also, I think it’s important to note that the long winters in GRRM’s world are already dumb as hell. They make no sense, whatsoever. Almost everyone and every thing in Westeros would starve to death. You couldn’t possibly put away enough food to survive such a winter, and 100 foot snows would freeze you to death anyway. The show not focusing on this aspect of the world is a mercy, because it doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny.

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    42. Mihnea,

      Yes indeed, the Dothraki follow strength, which is why overall I understand the reasoning behind the scene, despite some personal criticisms. But we also know that they are capable of rebelling if they don’t like the leader. That’s why Mago challenges Drogo to a fight in episode 1.08. It seems unlikely to me that 100 thousand people would have the exact same psychology and have no problem with the killing of the Khals. The Dothraki aren’t robots, they are people and they wouldn’t all react the same way to such a shocking event. Every single one of their leaders has just been killed. And now they are all going to follow a non-Dothraki woman. This is unprecedented. Some people would take issue with this. The Khals would have families. They would have friends, brothers, etc… People mourning them. Surely at least one guy would find Dany’s murder of them problematic.
      An enraged brother, devastated by his loss. An angry friend, who was loyal to his Khal. Someone would be pissed at Dany. All of them bowing instantly is just not credible.

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    43. Chinoiserie,

      Agree with you on Dany’s character.

      She isn’t going to turn mad. She is simply embracing her Targaryan roots ”fire and blood”.

      I see her becoming Aegon the conqueror, in character. Merciless with those who disobey/fight her, kind to those who bow to her.

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    44. Markus Stark,

      The story is about Dany. Not some random Khals brother.

      If this is what you want, you will never, ever get it.

      Not to mention, Who the hell knows she killed them? The temple burns and she walks out. No one could know she started the fire.

      Not credible to you. To the vast majority it was.

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    45. Chinoiserie,

      Yeah, Daznak’s chapter and the last one of her, seems to indicate that shes not fireproof but at least, has some resistance to only get a few blisters from dragonfire, because yeah, Drogon didn’t breath on her directly, but she points out how hot it was his breath like 2x times. I believe if she can tolerate being close to dragon fire(that thing melts iron, imagine the temperatures lol) going out of a simple fire well, should be piece of cake (?).
      Those Dany chapters from ADWD made me really think about the firepoof thingy, she does recall how the fire didn’t touch her in the pire, same as in Daznak. I believe she’s not really fireproof, but she has some high resistance.

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    46. Markus Stark,
      Q: Why is Dany fireproof?

      A: She carries two copies of the immunity-conferring allelle of the fireproof gene (X-linked, immunity-conferring allele recessive) *as well as* the correct combination of transcription enhancers and splicing factors *as well as* all the proper RNAi, epigenetics, mtDNA and whatnot. In other words, she is the pinnacle (or just a lucky offshoot) of the Targaryen Inbreeding Program. I don’t know about Azor Ahai, but she is the goddamn Kwisatz Haderach, she is.

      …or it’s just narrative convenience. Take your pick.

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    47. koempel,

      There is no evidence in the show (or in the books that I remember) that she is not immune to fire (except from some GRRM comment in an interview).

      Indeed, in Dance of the Dragons, it’s hinted that she again survived fire (her hair was burnt away).. I think we need to treat what actually appears in the books as cannon, rather than off-hand remarks by the author that weren’t nearly as carefully considered.

      For myself, it makes no sense to introduce an ability to a character, then expect the character to never attempt to exploit it again. In order to succeed against great odds, you use the tools you are given.

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    48. Flayed Potatoes:
      I think I would have enjoyed the scene more if it had played out differently, as opposed to Dany concocting a last minute plan because the Super Daario Brothers arrived miraculously and coincidentally right on the night of her trial. It’s very convenient and predictable.

      Rewatch the scene where Dany is introduced to the Dosh Khaleen. We are also introduced to the oil torches in the same scene, and throughout almost the entirety of the dialogue between the old Dosh Khaleen and Dany, the latter is looking at the fires very intently. No doubt she was forming her plan from there, Daario and Jorah only helped to bar the doors. They weren’t the fulcrum on which this whole plan turned.

      One Youtuber managed to predict that Dany would burn down the temple on her own after analysing that scene before ep4 aired, specifically because the directing and blocking was pointing it out the whole time.

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    49. I know, but they should be pleased because the less the show follows the books the less they are spoiled

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    50. Flayed Potatoes:
      I think I would have enjoyed the scene more if it had played out differently, as opposed to Dany concocting a last minute plan because the Super Daario Brothers arrived miraculously and coincidentally right on the night of her trial. It’s very convenient and predictable. I would have enjoyed seeing her build relationships with all those other widows and win them over, so that they can help her implement a plan. I would have liked to have seen her talk to the widows about their struggles. I know we got the Lazaren (spelling?) widow, but that was for like 20 seconds. Why not make use of other Dothraki widows and develop them as characters? It would have been hilarious for the Super Daario Brothers to arrive at VD, only to see Dany with the widows in charge and not in need of their help.

      “Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.”

      I really want to see interior monologues like this one turned into dialogue. It would give her character more vulnerability. I want to see her verbalize her worries about what she’s doing wrong in Meereen and what she needs to fix to not fail in Westeros. On the show she’s always stuck in badass queen/khalessi mode, and I want to see some other sides of her character.

      This. They blew their opportunity to have Dany discover the power of people/women working together toward a common cause. There are other potential choices for her than the false dichotomy of ‘dragon versus Mhysa.’

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    51. God…This thread reminded me why I like unsullied reviews/recaps and…every thing else….better.

      Instead of a nice debate about Dany’s character and what these events mean for her, we have nitpicking and rants about book changes….

      What hope Brynden gave me, I lost it completely… Sad, because the article was very good.

      I’m out, see you in the open-chat.

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    52. HelloThere,

      Yeah it made sense in season 1 because they had previously agreed to follow her when she told them they were free to go if they wanted, and they also knew, liked and respected her. Some of them were probably also enslaved people taken by Drogo’s kalasar, and she made a point in season 1 to take the captive women with her instead of letting them get raped.

      But in this other situation, there are like 100K people. We have to assume that they all share one brain and there’s no trace of individual thought and that doesn’t sit well with me. Her storyline has been criticized for the white savior and colonial aspects and this event kind of adds fuel to the fire. It’s another reason why I would have preferred to see her work with the Dothraki widows instead of the two white men who magically arrived just in time for the trial.

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    53. I personally hated GRRM’s comment that Dany’s fireproof was a one off thing. Saying something that important about a character only happened that one time is just lazy writing, like if Superman was only bulletproof for one scene because the writer required it to move the story forward. I’m glad the show decided to keep it consistent.

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    54. Firannion: This. They blew their opportunity to have Dany discover the power of people/women working together toward a common cause. There are other potential choices for her than the false dichotomy of ‘dragon versus Mhysa.’

      That just sounds exactly like what she’s been doing the last few seasons. It’s not like the Unsullied and so on weren’t any help before, and she gave them a choice to stay. She worked along with Hizdahr as well.

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    55. Yaga: I try not to be smug, here or anywhere, now or ever, but…. This wasn’t obvious? From start?

      I agree. More so this season than at any other time, I am so glad that I have never laid eyes on the books, but from the beginning have been watching and concentrating on what the show is telling me. A constant mental comparison to the books means that one’s concentration is divided and one is missing large chunks of what an audio-visual medium is telling one! 🙂

      I am no longer reading all the posts by commenters here, but I’ve read quite a few saying Daenerys’ scene at the end of 6.04 was just a copy of the one from 1.10. Uhhh….. really?

      Kudos to the OP, who chose to go back and rewatch the actual episode instead of yet more comparisons with the books.

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    56. Young Dragon,

      Totally agreed. If anything the show has been more consistent on this issue than GRRM. His explanation to explain how Dany survived the birth of the dragons (a one time supernatural magical event) has always seemed very convenient. In the show universe Dany has always been fireproof. It is much cleaner that way.

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    57. Firannion: This. They blew their opportunity to have Dany discover the power of people/women working together toward a common cause. There are other potential choices for her than the false dichotomy of ‘dragon versus Mhysa.’

      It could be that discovering the power of cooperative work simply isn’t important to Dany’s story. Discovering the power of knowing who you are and self-assertion, on the other hand, is.

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    58. Flayed Potatoes:
      HelloThere,
      But in this other situation, there are like 100K people. We have to assume that they all share one brain and there’s no trace of individual thought and that doesn’t sit well with me.

      You don’t have to assume that at all. Every single one of their leaders is dead, they respect strength above all, and they’re deeply superstitious. It’s been established from the beginning they don’t have the same sense of loyalty, before Drogo was even dead his Khalasar had abandoned him. Just because they follow their culture and practices doesn’t mean they’re mindless. Anymore than almost everybody in the North being loyal to the Starks for 1000 years makes them mindless.

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    59. I drink and l know things,

      George was adamant that event from season 1 was one time magical event, so he might stick to it in the books. I wouldn’t be surprised. She burned her hair in Pit, didn’t she? Show and books are going probably in a different routes. So to say this is canon and this isn’t is not exactly correct. Simply people need to accept Daeny is fireproof in the show and deal with it.

      Purists can be annoying but without books there would be no show. Not directly aimed at you but be respectful at least to books and George. Just in general.

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    60. Valaquen,

      So why can’t she befriend and build relationships with those widows instead and work with them to accomplish things? I’m pretty sure they can bar a bunch of doors and distract some guards. We know The Super Daario Brothers are loyal. It would be much more rewarding imo to have her work with the other women, as Firannion also pointed out below.

      Firannion,

      I agree. I really enjoy these types of themes too and find them very rewarding as a viewer (and for the characters as well).

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    61. cosca,

      They also have a sacred city and temple where they don’t allow blood to be spilled. The temple was burned and blood was spilled to kill the guards and that seems to be overlooked.

      The Starks fought against the Boltons a lot (they also had problems with the Greystarks in the past, but that’s not a show thing). Not everyone in the North got along and followed the Starks blindly. This season, the Starks will also fight against the Umbers and Karstarks.

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    62. Absolute respect to George. I just think there now exists book and show canon both of which are valid.

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    63. Flayed Potatoes,

      Dany’s major theme was/is and will be ”Mhysa vs Dragon queen” there is no changing that.

      Her finding the importance of working with people will never be a theme in her story.

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    64. I really enjoyed the article, Brynden, and well done with the title. 🙂

      Imo, I think one of the driving forces behind this scene boils down to part of Quaithe’s prophecy in the books

      To go forward, you must go back

      . With that in mind, some may feel it was too literal of an interpretation, that’s what I was thinking the whole time I was watching the scene. Yes, something did feel a bit off to me in the scene, although I enjoyed it, overall, but I decided to just let go of trying to figure out what felt a bit off, and move on.

      I will be interested to see how Martin has her win her Khalassar (and it wouldn’t surprise me if Martin does it in a very similar way), as there’s no question in my mind that’s what will happen in the books, too.

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    65. Mihnea:
      Flayed Potatoes,

      Because a god walking out of flames over shadows those pointless details.

      “God”

      See, that’s a problem. She’s supposed to be a person, first and foremost. A complex character. She’s not some perfect and infallible god. I don’t find those types of characters to be compelling. The mentality that she’s a “god” doesn’t make her scenes immune to criticism.

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    66. GeekFurious:
      I think the whole Dany being fireproof thing is ridiculous. I think what D&D have been doing to the story over the past 2 seasons is unfortunate. But there is nothing I can do to make them show the books and their audience greater respect. D&D are now making the dumbed down version of the books. The first four seasons were the watered down version of the books but still, essentially, the books. That’s over now. And I’m not totally fine with it, but I understand it and I’ll keep watching and enjoying the cliche fan service version of a brilliant book series.

      With all due respect, the novels are not exactly Crime and Punishment either. They are mostly average fantasy litterature that desperately needed the watering if they were to become a tv show. As for not keeping up with them anymore…. well, it is noone’s fault if Mr. Martin got tired of writing.

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    67. Mihnea,

      You have to learn how to work with people if you want to rule well. Her theme is also learning how to rule. She’ll burn some slavers and armies of harpies with her dragon when she returns to Meereen, but if you resort to do that in all situations….it can’t end well.

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    68. Flayed Potatoes,

      Well here I also disagree, because I don’t think she will ever rule.
      Just like jesus never ruled.

      And that is also what Aegon the conqueror did. You knelt you lived, you fought you burn.

      Her entire arc in Meereen is about showing the mistakes in compromising to much, doubting yourself to much..etc.

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    69. Mihnea,

      Drogon burning them is certainly a possibility, but it isn’t the only one, and while you may think it is obvious, well, many assumed that’s what would happen in the show. It didn’t, so, thanks, but I’ll leave myself open to a variety of possibilities, whether you consider it fooling myself, or not.

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    70. Flayed Potatoes: “God”

      See, that’s a problem. She’s supposed to be a person, first and foremost. A complex character. She’s not some perfect and infallible god. I don’t find those types of characters to be compelling. The mentality that she’s a “god” doesn’t make her scenes immune to criticism.

      God doesn’t necessarily imply perfection. Her having a god complex and thinking she is a savior when she is actually a conqueror is what makes her story interesting. It’s a complex and compelling narrative, especially if you buy into the idea that Dany is a villain like I do.

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    71. kamali,

      I don’t subscribe to the theory that she’s the villain, but I see why others would.

      Mihnea,

      See, I actually think she will rule. Otherwise, why did GURM waste my time with her taking leadership 101 classes in ADWD? lmao

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    72. kamali,

      I wasn’t meaning a ”god complex”..
      Neither do I think she’ll be evil.

      In the long perspective of thing I think Dany will be remembered as a god.
      Very much like Jesus, or any other prophets (waiting for people t tell me Jesus isn’t a god, well for the first thousand years, the christian church was very devided on this)

      And we simply see her journey from, the revelation, Dragons birth, to her doubting herself, entire Meereen arc, and in the end to her embracing this.

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    73. Flayed Potatoes: “God”

      See, that’s a problem. She’s supposed to be a person, first and foremost. A complex character. She’s not some perfect and infallible god. I don’t find those types of characters to be compelling. The mentality that she’s a “god” doesn’t make her scenes immune to criticism.

      She can be both. A somewhat confused teenage girl and a godlike magical being with a destiny. And that makes her fascinating as a character in my opinion.

      See this is something I think GRRM and the show have done a very good job with. You have these characters like Dany (also to some extent Jon, Bran, perhaps even Stoneheart) who have supernatural/godlike abilities but they are portrayed as very human with imperfections and flaws. Reminds me of something like the “Last Temptation of Christ”. Examination of characters with a dual nature. How do they reconcile the two sides? I want to see Dany (and Jon and Bran, etc.) struggle with this.

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    74. Mihnea,

      Too add a bit.

      I hate ”learning 101” stories. That’s why I disliked Dany’s story in the books and hated Sansa’s.
      And mildly disliked Arya’s.

      They were not ready to do what the plot demands, so they were put in Dragon balls Z, Hyperbolic time chamber, and information/lessons were thrown at them.

        Quote  Reply

    75. Mihnea,

      I really agree.Dany has always seemed like a messiah to me.She tried to rule but found out she is a conqueror instead.She is kind of a larger than life figure but a tragic character at the same time,never belonging anywhere.I really don’t see the story ending with her ruling on the Iron throne.I think she will go out in a blaze of glory at the climax,sacrificing herself and taking her dragons with her or something similliar.

        Quote  Reply

    76. Flayed Potatoes:
      Valaquen,

      So why can’t she befriend and build relationships with those widows instead and work with them to accomplish things? I’m pretty sure they can bar a bunch of doors and distract some guards. We know The Super Daario Brothers are loyal. It would be much more rewarding imo to have her work with the other women, as Firannion also pointed out below.

      Because there are only so many episodes a season, and only so many minutes in an hour, and only so long an audience is going to wait — swathes of viewers and reviewers were already complaining that it was taking so long for stuff to happen with her story, many of them inhabiting these very boards. Maybe you’ll get more in the books, since GRRM can unspool thousands of characters and interactions and thoughts and beats without the need for a budget or time allocation, but you understand this is a vastly different medium.

      Jacob:
      Fetto,

      I believe it was implied that the burning was a trap, presumably by oils placed by the young Khaleesi widow.

      Watch episode 3 again. We can see that the fires in the temple are oil-based. The Dosh Khaleen lights them with a single torch.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Kevin:
      I’m surprised no one has mentioned the prophecy from the House of Undying in the books:

      This would seem to be the one for death, assuming this will be in the book as well.

      The one for love would be Drogo’s funeral pyre… And the one for life would be … burning the WW?

        Quote  Reply

    78. Jenny,

      Yup, exactly this is my opinion.

      She will never rule, never marry and have children.. Unable to form connections with most people, because of her godlike status.

      In truth, it’s rather sad..

        Quote  Reply

    79. Sunfyre,

      Jon just flat out said he’s not a god haha. But it would be interesting to see him react to…ahem…a certain reveal.

      I don’t know if Bran sees himself as a god. He seems to view his visions as a way for him to escape real life. However, he might get cocky because of his powers…I could see this happening. Good point!

      With Dany I want her interior monologues to be translated into dialogue. Does she consider her reign a failure? What will she think of the compromises Tyrion made? How is she processing the devotion from the Dothraki? Does it make her feel pressured, since she has 100k people to look after?

        Quote  Reply

    80. There’s going to be a lot of disappointed people when TWOW is finally released, that’s for sure. It’s going to be fun to watch, although no doubt the purists will make excuses, and will still maintain that the book version is better.

      D&D are far from perfect, but it is very clear that they are working tirelessly to finish the series. They have had to make changes to meet the demands of a TV series, and to keep the audience invested. George, on the other hand, can write as slow as he likes, shows no signs that he will finish the series, and can introduce new plot after new plot and endless waffle that any decent editor would cut.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Here’s a theory:

      Danaerys is only immune to fire when she’s doing blood magic. When she burned the khals in their own temple she was doing some seriously powerful blood magic. King’s blood, fire, holy place… it’s no wonder that she would not only be fireproof, but also not need to breathe, not get crushed by falling stuff, and instantly receive the adulation of the people who used to follow her sacrifices.

      Dany walking through fire is a spell, not a superpower. She seems to have an instinctive aptitude for fire and blood magic, which could come from her blood, or could be Rh’llor or some other entity guiding her. The powers she gets are not so different from the ones Melisandre gets, or attempts to get, from burning people with king’s blood. Only while Mel has studied for centuries to master her powers, Dany doesn’t seem to even realize what she’s doing.

      Does hatching dragon eggs always require sacrifice and fire? We know the Targaryens have attempted it before, at a Summerhall, but they didn’t get it quite right.

      “three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love…” This is the second fire, I think. The third will likely also involve her walking through fire and doing blood magic.

      HelloThere,
      Markus Stark,
      Flayed Potatoes,

        Quote  Reply

    82. Mihnea,

      Hm, maybe. Although it could also be for love, not for Drogo, but for their dragon babies.
      But then again I can’t remember if the prophecy was in the show, and then of course maybe we pay too much attention to it and the show will not even bother about it!

        Quote  Reply

    83. Mihnea,

      I love leadership 101 and initiation stories haha. I enjoyed the heck out of Jon’s ADWD chapters and Arya’s were interesting. Some bits of Dany’s were annoying (ugh Daario), I agree with you, but she’s also not surrounded by very developed characters which is a shame.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Sou,

      It wasn’t in the show.

      But I still think will get the 3 fires. Drgon’s was 1 and now we have the 2nd, when will we get the 3rd.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Flayed Potatoes,

      Yeah…. I strongly disliked Jon’s chapters at the Wall….

      Not saying you are wrong or anything, I just think it’s clear we like different stories and look for very different things in them.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Mihnea,

      After spending all this time learning to rule, if Dany were to never rule Westeros, what would be the point of her lessons? That’s why I think she will end up on the IT in the end. Besides, GRRM has compared her to Aragon, basically saying he was correcting what he did not like in LOTR, that’s why she gets all these lessons in ruling. Because she will end up ruling in Westeros. This is my take.

        Quote  Reply

    87. I’m anxious to read how George has Daenerys resolve her assumed confrontation and connection with the Dothraki in TWoW. Moreso, how bitter purists receive it compared to the efforts on the show.

      Are people wanting Dany to become the leader of all Dothraki simply because they see she has a dragon that doesn’t kill her and sometimes does what she wants? What kind of loyalty does that earn? Tyrion told her last season, fear doesn’t earn loyalty. It would also most likely lead to an assassination eventually. In the books so far, other than dragons what makes her special enough to win over an entire society of free people on her own?

      What makes a better sci-fy/fantasy story or show, the Dothraki bowing to her simply because she has big, dangerous pets, or that she has them because she herself is special and magical. In both mediums she’s continually failed to rule by just forcing her way to the big chair. She has to also prove to the people that she’s worthy of their loyalty after that. The show is doing something about that. Is George really going to keep her just a ‘regular girl’ that still somehow conquers this world of hate?

        Quote  Reply

    88. Sou,

      I don’t know, I think she told the prophecy more in sequential order: The one for life would’ve been for the dragons being born, the one for death being the killing of the khals, and the one

      for love

      …. we’ll see.

        Quote  Reply

    89. ghost of winterfell,

      Yeah, I don’t think she will ever rule. To me the Meereen arc and everything that followed was only proof for this.

      And judging by the vision in Qarth in S2, I don’t think there will even be a IT when she gets there.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Knight of the Walkers,

      I agree. I actually think the Northern storyline on the show will hit a lot of the main points in TWOW (more than we expect actually). The big departure is Sansa’s presence, but if my suspicions are correct then the other main players will have similar journeys in both books and show. And I wouldn’t be surprised if in the books we’ll eventually see Sansa and Jon reunite as well. The signs are there & the show took a shortcut.

      And people would have to be blind if they think Dany isn’t getting another army in TWOW to take to Meereen as well. The hints are strong. There will probably be more travelogues though lol.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Flayed Potatoes,

      Agreed, it will be more or less the same.
      The only place I could see them changing the fate of the characters, is with really minor ones, like Gilly or Missandei/GW..etc.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Sou,

      TWOW will be released, but it is very unlikely that ADOS will be, and that is assuming it finishes in seven books which it won’t.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Mihnea,

      Well, I still believe it will be to defeat the WW… I have total respect for your theory, but I think mine (Drogo’s being the one for love) is more simple-minded, I mean of average intelligence, so more TV material! ?
      On the other hand, it may be that the prophecy mentions the fires in order, and you are right… But it could still be her burning down the WW, out of love for her people-royal subjects or something.
      And I still think it is quite probable the prophecy will stay out of the show!

        Quote  Reply

    94. Sou,

      I won’t argue, the meaning of the fires, I doubt will ever known exactly witch was for what, so in my opinion all interpretations are valid.

      Well the prophecy is out of the show. But I still think they will have these 3 fires.
      Just like I still think the ”valanqar” will be the same person and the events will be similar, even if it wasn’t mentioned in S5.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Mihnea,

      But GRRM has said that there will be somebody on the IT, that is ruling Westeros, at the end of the story. If I am not mistaken.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Flayed Potatoes,

      I do agree with you in principle. The problem however is that if they want to get the show wrapped up with 12 to 15 more episodes after season 6, they really need to get things moving along. We are already halfway through the season and it feels like there’s not enough time to get things where they need to considering all of the storylines that they are trying to show. If we knew we could have another three or four seasons then I would be all about it. But they just don’t have that much time or don’t want to devote that much time to showing the developments that we may want to see.

        Quote  Reply

    97. ghost of winterfell,

      ”There will be more people sitting the” IT, he didn’t say it will survive the end.

      it’s obviously Aegon in the books, he’ll sit a bit until he dies

      I think the vision in Qarth indicates preaty close as to what will happen, Dany won’t have time to sit the IT as the war with the WW would have begun.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Esmail,

      Many people were disappointed by how short the first couple of episodes were, especially with how few episodes we have left. We could have easily had a small scene of Dany bonding with more widows in that temple. They actually burned down that expensive set with the temple in the behind the scenes videos, and they barely made use of it. 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    99. I don’t have a problem with the reuse of a theme that the author has explicitly stated was a once in a lifetime event, what I have a problem with is the corny, poorly executed scene where Dany tips over two small fire braziers that somehow immediately immolate some Khals and send others fleeing away. I mean for fucks sake, did anyone see the size of the fires in the braziers? The Khal’s had plenty of time to kill her, instead they’re like nah, we’ll just run around real quick and ignore dany, lol. I like the scene where Dany walks out of the burning temple, it was pretty bad ass, but the scene leading up to this, was completely unbelievable. So was the scene where Jon has to have his arm twisted to go fight Ramsay, what the fuck was that??? It was a complete 180 from the books. The show is supposed to be an adaptation, so some things have to be changed for the sake of time and money, but for fuck’s sake don’t completely change plot points just to make Sansa look strong. Honestly the writing for this season has been pretty bad. There are so many issues. The best part of the episode was Littlefinger, and Tormund giving Brienne the lustful eye, lol. The reunion between Jon and Sansa was pretty good too, but fuck, Jon is supposed to be changed from the stabbing, the only change I saw was he became an even bigger sulky bitch. He should be ready for war and tearing out throats now, but he’s like, well we don’t know Ramsay has Rickon and besides, I want to run away south and get warm. WTF? You have a perfect blueprint, use it for fucks sake.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Off-Topic Otto:
      Only thing that bothered me was the logistics of the last scene. There were controlled fires near the walls, so it doesn’t seem like it was such a flammable structure that was just ready to go. And if the pitch in the braziers was itself so volatile, the flames should have been raging. Don’t understand why spreading it out gets it more excited. It just seemed unrealistic that pushing over a couple braziers makes the place go up in flame so fast. I would have liked a hint at some preparation in the space to make it work as such. But, I loved it for the story and choose to look past it…

      So if Dany knocked over the fire and then 10 minutes later everything caught on fire that would be better? I’m sure it would make for amazing TV too….. WHYYYYYYYY are people so petty?

        Quote  Reply

    101. Flayed Potatoes,

      the last are quite long, hell this season has the longest episode in the series.
      It will be about as long as S5.

      But things got a lot more expensive….

      I am quite glad they didn’t waste time on Dany and the DK right now, they may have a scene later one.
      Because in my opinion, there is no point to it and like I said I don’t think it fitted the theme that the story is about.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Mihnea,

      They’ve said they are keeping the key elements and I’m sure by now everyone knows who the key elements and players are. I actually think Lady Stoneheart isn’t that crucial so….goodbye to her lol

        Quote  Reply

    103. Flayed Potatoes,

      I see where you’re coming from. It feels like the story is at an inflection point where characters are beginning to discover the full extent of their “magical” natures. How they deal with that will be interesting. As you said, Jon seems to not see himself as special in any way. Bran could become drunk with the power and there’s always been a slight undercurrent of darkness with his storyline. I think we might have an indication how dark it will be in the next few episodes.

      As for Dany… I think she has always been on the edge. I definitely agree with you and want to see her keep a link with her humanity. It could be a challenge because she may have come to a point where she has to project total certainty and strength. Can she open up to Jorah or Missandei or Tyrion in moments of self-doubt? Her internal monologues could be adapted as conversations with her closest advisors. But “self-doubt” could honestly be a thing of the past with her. She seems to be fully embracing her dragon nature. Will there be turmoil and questioning going on inside Dany as she leads her armies to Westeros? I think it would make her journey more interesting if she isn’t TOTALLY convinced she’s this righteous prophesied conqueror.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Sunfyre,

      She will be doubting herself for some time, no way near the level she did in Meereen though.

      I think she will fully embrace her destiny only when the WW finally attack.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Yaga: she is the goddamn Kwisatz Haderach, she is.

      ROFL! But this is at odds with my theory that Marwyn the Mage is the Bene Gesserit’s main operative on Planetos, I fear. The so-called Maesters’ Conspiracy is really a controlled hybridization program of a scale so cosmic and ancient as to make the Game of Thrones look like a schoolyard game of marbles by comparison.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Sunfyre,

      I think the show could have made use of someone like Barristan a bit more in season 5 to flesh out Dany’s inner monologues. He’s known Dany’s family, so he would have been someone she could open up to. We only had the Rhaegar scene and that was really there to drop some parentage hints lol. I was hoping for some scenes with her and Missandei or Barristan, since they’ve been with her longer than Tyrion. Maybe we’ll see her doubts emerge when she gets to Westeros…but who knows. Tyrion should have earned her trust by then.

      I want her to meet Varys so badly btw.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Sou,

      Or the brazier had oil, as it can be seen when they fall over.
      Or the kindle on the ground catched fire, in the middle of the hot desert, as the director says.

      Or a thousand other explenations.

        Quote  Reply

    108. Mihnea,

      Yep, the best part about watching a fantasy show is that it doesn’t have to be 100% realistic! I mean, not everything has to be explained!

        Quote  Reply

    109. Mihnea,

      They have to meet when she gets to Westeros I think.

      It would be ironic if, after all the years he spent secretly helping her, he dies before meeting her. That would be sad…..but it would be such a GoT thing to do lol.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Flayed Potatoes,

      Whilst I do agree that more time would have been nice, it would have been impossible to produce. The crew worked solidly for about 5 and a half months with at least two simultaneous filming units (for a while it was three filming units, and for a couple of weeks it was four!) They effectively produce three long feature films every year. There really isn’t time to do any more, and it is incredible that they have been able to produce six seasons of this length.

      It is one of the differences between the mediums, and is what compelled George to write these books in the first place. Everyone on this show (producers, sfx, actors, prosthetics etc) works so damn hard, and I think they are all often under appreciated. Even if you dislike the path the show is taking, you cannot argue with the amount of work they put into this beast.

        Quote  Reply

    111. Sou,

      This.

      Or that we can simply not have a 10 minute scene while the fire gets bigger.
      Allthough, last year in my country a night club burned down, sadly 60 people died, because the fireworks lit the wooden ceiling, in took about 30 seconds until pieces started falling on the people.

      And this was from a spark, Dany’s fire was preaty big. If you want to find realistic answers, you only need to look a bit.

      Sometimes real life would stun and suprise you more then even a fantasy story.

        Quote  Reply

    112. cosca: the long winters in GRRM’s world are already dumb as hell. They make no sense, whatsoever. Almost everyone and every thing in Westeros would starve to death. You couldn’t possibly put away enough food to survive such a winter, and 100 foot snows would freeze you to death anyway.

      That much is certainly true, but I for one am willing to suspend disbelief in the bizarrely non-cyclical seasons, defying all known laws of physics, since that is the first premise presented us by the author. I’m an adherent of Tolkien’s famous prescription (in his essay ‘On Fairy-Stories,’ which should be required reading for any more-than-casual fantasy fan) that any kind of magical weirdness in a fantasy story is fair game, so long as the alternate universe or ‘subcreation’ remains internally consistent within its own structure of rules.

      Trying to put a Planetos winter onscreen is kind of a self-defeating exercise. There is simply no way without a billion-dollar budget to shoot a slog through endless blizzards the way that GRRM describes the progress (or lack thereof) of Stannis’ army in the North. Having grown up in the real-world north, with childhood memories of walking on snowdrifts and falling through the crust to find myself buried in snow up to my armpits, I tend to scoff at scenes where characters are walking around with normal strides through ‘deep snow’ that was added in afterwards via CGI effects.

      That can’t really be fixed, but the show could’ve easily included a few brief scenes of farmers scurrying to bring in the last harvest before the winter, or wainloads of produce lining up at the city gates, or government commissars presiding over the stocking of huge granaries and larders. On such a planet, major infrastructure designed and coordinated to prevent mass starvation would have been a ‘thing,’ and one of the most serious responsibilities of the crown. We keep hearing people say ‘Winter is coming’ with doom in their voices, but we don’t see enough to make the harsh consequences of that winter seem real and truly threatening (except for WW and wights, but starvation would be the biggest killer).

        Quote  Reply

    113. Esmail: The problem however is that if they want to get the show wrapped up with 12 to 15 more episodes after season 6, they really need to get things moving along.

      I know David said “I think we’re down to our final 13 episodes after this season. We’re heading into the final lap,” said Benioff. “That’s the guess, though nothing is yet set in stone, but that’s what we’re looking at.” That’s their preliminary layout and thoughts but until HBO and they officially decide and agree we won’t have a final plan.

      Still, if the number ends up 13 that would mean 19 more episodes left from today. That’s quite a bit of time actually considering how it feels like things are starting to condense and come together as opposed to widening/broadening. If Daenerys’ end goal is in Westeros I would think most of that will be climactic and not a slow burn. Meaning, if she arrives in Westeros with 15 episodes left I think that’s a lot of time considering when that happens the storylines will all start to run into each other.

        Quote  Reply

    114. Firannion,

      The story is about Jon/Dany/Arya/Sansa…etc.

      Not farmers and their crops.

      If you want worldbuilding and detailed description of common peoples life, the books are for you.
      If you want a focused story that is about these primary characters, the show is for you.

      None are better. It all depends on the person. I myself prefer a focused story much better.

        Quote  Reply

    115. Yaga:
      And that’s exactly where ADWD Dany is heading as well (albeit much more shittily and slowly).

      Don’t know if it was intentional, but nice pun! ???

        Quote  Reply

    116. So king’s blood has power, right? But as Varys explains, rulers only have power because their subjects acknowledge that they do. What if the magic of king’s blood literally comes from the belief of the people they rule? In that case, by sacrificing a khal, or a group of them (I counted seven!), a person could magically appropriate that belief or even hijack it to her own ends.

        Quote  Reply

    117. I HEART DEAD LANNISTERS (EVEN TYRION):
      I don’t have a problem with the reuse of a theme that the author has explicitly stated was a once in a lifetime event, what I have a problem with is the corny, poorly executed scene where Dany tips over two small fire braziers that somehow immediately immolate some Khals and send others fleeing away. I mean for fucks sake, did anyone see the size of the fires in the braziers? The Khal’s had plenty of time to kill her, instead they’re like nah, we’ll just run around real quick and ignore dany, lol. I like the scene where Dany walks out of the burning temple, it was pretty bad ass, but the scene leading up to this, was completely unbelievable. So was the scene where Jon has to have his arm twisted to go fight Ramsay, what the fuck was that??? It was a complete 180 from the books. The show is supposed to be an adaptation, so some things have to be changed for the sake of time and money, but for fuck’s sake don’t completely change plot points just to make Sansa look strong. Honestly the writing for this season has been pretty bad. There are so many issues. The best part of the episode was Littlefinger, and Tormund giving Brienne the lustful eye, lol. The reunion between Jon and Sansa was pretty good too, but fuck, Jon is supposed to be changed from the stabbing, the only change I saw was he became an even bigger sulky bitch. He should be ready for war and tearing out throats now, but he’s like, well we don’t know Ramsay has Rickon and besides, I want to run away south and get warm. WTF? You have a perfect blueprint, use it for fucks sake.

      Watch your language! What is with all these F-words?

        Quote  Reply

    118. Fireproof! (Gauges out eyes) Dumbed down. Blah, blah, blah…

      Sort of the difference between 8-10 million viewers and a crap-ton of awards and having a dozen or so basement dwellers get off on its “perfection” and strict adherence to the masterful writing of the source material.

      Sorry. I choose violence.

        Quote  Reply

    119. Mihnea,

      Wherever in the prophecy does it say AAR will be fireproof? Wherever in the story does it say Azor Ahai was fireproof?
      You’re taking the prophecies literally and applying straightforward interpretation to them. Martin has stressed it out again and again that it’s not how he does things. The prophecies are not to be taken literally or too seriously for that matter. And they are not to be predictable. They are not what people expect them to be. Whatever the Red Priests/Priestesses say is of little significance because they are not infallible, what they think is also just their interpretation.

        Quote  Reply

    120. I liked the perspective of this article. Dany’s fire energy is essential to her personality and for her it is also instinctual. Of course a “pink little girl” looks nothing like the Goddess Anat, one of Martin’s possible influences, a goddess of justice who is depicted as a beautiful sword wielding woman from the waist up and flames from the waist down (source of the word “anathema”). But here’s the thing: Dany really has no relationship with Westeros. Yes her father was the Mad King, assassinated after the depths of his insanity and depravity were revealed, but she has never set foot in the place as an adult. She neither understands the culture of Westeros or has any meaningful relationship with its people. And very few Westerosi women have made the journeys into their own souls that Dany has had to make. The Mother of Dragons would do far better using her powers – three dragons and the Dothraki hordes, to remake the political economy of Slaver’s Bay. Of course the dragons are probably the key to dealing with the Night’s King, darn…

        Quote  Reply

    121. Icekhione,

      No where, because the show never mentioned AA, only the son of fire/warrior of light.

      Dany being fireproof, only sends more signs that she is the true ”hero” and PTWP.

      What Martin said or says, means absolutly nothing to me.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Flayed Potatoes,

      I’ve always figured Sansa will end up pretty much where she is in the show (with details differing). I feel like the show has just expedited her getting North. I know, we all pine for the

      giant lemoncake

      from her TWOW sample chapter, but, alas, we’ll have to do without it in the show…or, who knows, maybe they’ll work that in in a future episode. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    123. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Poor Sophie. Doesn’t she hate lemoncakes?

      Jon and Sansa should have a feast when they retake Winterfell so the Northern houses will pledge their loyalty officially. 😛 Someone can bring a giant lemoncake as a peace offering.

        Quote  Reply

    124. Given that Daenerys checks off every feature in the AAR list, it’s unlikely it’s her. Martin has made her an obvious candidate for a reason. She’s either a red herring or there will be a twist to it. Like AAR is going to be the destroyer.
      Daenerys has already turned into a milder version of her father. She has shown to take pleasure from burning people and choosing such a method to solve her problems.

        Quote  Reply

    125. Icekhione:
      Given that Daenerys checks off every feature in the AAR list, it’s unlikely it’s her. Martin has made her an obvious candidate for a reason. She’s either a red herring or there will be a twist to it. Like AAR is going to be the destroyer.
      Daenerys has already turned into a milder version of her father. She has shown to take pleasure from burning people and choosing such a method to solve her problems.

      I feel that as well. When Aemon “revealed” Daenerys in the books, something was simply not right. It didn’t feel climatic. And yes, Warrior of Light is too idealized person (if we ignore the murder of his wife). There has to be something else

        Quote  Reply

    126. Mihnea,

      I very much doubt AAR is to be a hero. Of course I doubt any of the prophecies are true anyway. BTW it’s unlikely AAR and TPTWP are one and the same. AAR is a champion of fire, TPTWP has a song of Ice and Fire. There’s nothing ice about Daenerys.

      Daenerys has spent 5 books/6 seasons making a mess out of Essos, not even aware of the threat from beyond The Wall, while Jon and co have been all about them for most of the story. If you expect Martin and D+D to have her come at the 11th hour and save the day, diminishing the role of those other characters in the endgame, you’re into the wrong story. It’s not happening, neither in the books nor the show.
      There are two directions for her character. She either helps in the battle for the Dawn, but is not the sole contributor obviously (Martin and D+D haven’t spent so much time on other major characters only to dismiss them in the end. Interestingly it’s Tyrion and Jon who have the most chapters in the books. And Tyrion, Jon and Cersei who have the most screentime in the show), or she becomes a threat herself. The latter would be a greater plot twist.

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    127. It’s a shame D and D decided to give Daenerys a magical skill, while denying Jon and Arya their Warg abilities. They have also played down the bond between the Starks and their direwolves. Which is unfortunate.

        Quote  Reply

    128. Mihnea:
      Icekhione,

      No where, because the show never mentioned AA, only the son of fire/warrior of light.

      Dany being fireproof, only sends more signs that she is the true ”hero” and PTWP.

      I think that both Danny and Jon are TPTWP and that’s why D&D have spent 6 years building them up with storylines that parallel and mirror each other…

        Quote  Reply

    129. Icekhione,

      Actually only Jon and Tyrion have more screen time than Daenerys and its not by that much either. Which is surprising to me considering both Tyrion and Jon have had an entire episode dedicated to their respective battles (Blackwater and Watchers on the Wall).
      http://www.imdb.com/list/ls076752033/

      As to the other half of your post, I don’t think anyone is claiming that Dany will be the sole contributor to the War for the Dawn. At the very least the Dragons can wipe out wights at an effective rate, don’t really know about the White Walkers. But like you, I don’t really believe in the Azor Ahai/TPTWP prophecy; so I don’t really have much to say in that regard. Jon and Daenerys seem to be on track to fulfill the prophecy but to me it just seems like a title to be given after the fact.

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    130. jennyofoldstones,

      Haha! I don’t want to offend, I really don’t, but you’re a purist poster child. Out of all things you could hold against the show, you are bothered by the “dumbed down supply situation”?!?

      Oh man, this comment takes the cake!

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    131. Icekhione,

      Yes it’s such a shame. We haven’t even seen Summer so far this season. So many fans I’ve seen review the episodes on YouTube post-Shaggydog think all the direwolves are dead with the exception of Ghost. 🙁

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    132. Mihnea,

      It was meant more in general. Sometimes people write stuff not so nice towards books and George. Without books=no show. I whish these wars between book readers and show watchers can end, we can appreciate both versions. But this as possible as me dating Emilia Clarke.

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    133. Flayed Potatoes,

      They do like killing off direwolves. It’s only fair to kill off a dragon or two heh.

      Hopefully Nymeria comes back into the picture with a vengeance, commanding an army of wolves, like in the books. They ought to show Summer too, come on. It seems they’re even back to neglecting Ghost now that Jon’s back.

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    134. Mihnea: The story is about Jon/Dany/Arya/Sansa…etc.

      Not farmers and their crops.

      If you want worldbuilding and detailed description of common peoples life, the books are for you.
      If you want a focused story that is about these primary characters, the show is for you.

      No one is asking for the story to be about farmers. Nor did I ask for a ‘detailed description’ in the show – I did say ‘brief.’ The three scenes that I rattled off could be shown in a 45-second montage, and it would have helped viewers understand how the stakes of winter are very serious – and not just about the zombie army coming.

      A key component of character development is motivation. It isn’t just a matter of navel-gazing, experiencing angst and ‘finding oneself.’ The Starks – who constitute the majority of the main protagonists – are all about survival. They have been motivated for thousands of years by the drive to survive winter and its privations and dangers. And they do it by banding together (a/k/a cooperative effort). The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.

      When it comes to winter, Dany still knows nothing! Her education on that subject is going to be a cram course at the end, I fear. And it looks like she’ll still be out of town while Tyrion is learning how to feed a city under siege, which would be a useful skill for someone who desires to rule and not just to conquer. Being good at conquering is kind of like being good at running for president – i.e., not quite the same thing as being president, as many outstanding campaigners have learned to their cost.

      I know that you don’t believe that her destiny is to rule, but if not…why bother conquering at all? So you can watch gleefully while your dragons barbecue people by the hundreds? Screw destiny. Why not just marry Daario, settle down in some nice cosmopolitan city like Braavos, paint the door red and put a potted lemon tree in the glass gardens?

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    135. Firannion: This. They blew their opportunity to have Dany discover the power of people/women working together toward a common cause. There are other potential choices for her than the false dichotomy of ‘dragon versus Mhysa.’

      To be honest, she could have tried to institute transgender-inclusive bathrooms among the Dothraki! Would have made for a good story!

      Kidding, kidding! 🙂 Unfortunately (or fortunately), her current show/book story seems to be dragon vs mhysa and not something else, compelling as that may have been.

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    136. Fetto,

      It took just a Little glowing fire to burn it down in seconds.

      i t was several little firires that more thanlikely included a flamable liquid to help the fires burn faster.

      Bynden that was an excelent analysis. Thanks for reminding me of what happenes in the books and how that helped the show develope d Dany’s arc. I like seeing how the books come to play in the show, the similarties and differences,and what the show needs to do in adapting the material. Wish I could do that. I can only nod my head in agreement. Bravo!

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    137. Mr Fixit: I don’t want to offend, I really don’t, but you’re a purist poster child.

      Suggestion: If you really don’t want to offend, don’t call people disparaging names.

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    138. Kevin:
      I’m surprised no one has mentioned the prophecy from the House of Undying in the books:

      This would seem to be the one for death, assuming this will be in the book as well.

      I agree.

      The circumstances may change a bit in the books, but one way or another Danny is going to kill the Khals in the books (how else is she going to get all the khalasars to follow her? By making a speech? LOL) and the Dothraki will bow to her (we’ve already seen the vision in the House of the Undying of the Dosh Khaleen bowing to her…)

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    139. Markus Stark,

      How do you know Dany didn’t unlock her ability as well? Remember she was suicidal after marrying Drogo. Then she had a dragon dream which showed her how to be strong. She continues to have these dragon experiences until the pyre, which is where she says she had sensed the truth before. She knew what to do. As George said, it was instinctual for her.

      And you also have to remember that she’s practically half Blackwood. Blackwoods are First Men descendants who ruled the wolfswood before the Starks did. Their sigil is a weirwood tree surrounded by Ravens. Bloodraven is half Targ and half Blackwood, and many think this combination is what gives him his powers. So it’s not that strange to think that Dany’s genes, in combination with her being specially selected like Bran, is what gives her her abilities. Remember George said that Bran and Dany are his two most magical characters.

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    140. Flayed Potatoes,

      I would have enjoyed seeing her build relationships with all those other widows and win them over, so that they can help her implement a plan. I would have liked to have seen her talk to the widows about their struggles. I know we got the Lazaren (spelling?) widow, but that was for like 20 seconds. Why not make use of other Dothraki widows and develop them as characters? It would have been hilarious for the Super Daario Brothers to arrive at VD, only to see Dany with the widows in charge and not in need of their help.

      Id like to see that too, but if the show is ending when they say it will, there is no time to do this justice. Too bad actually that Dany doesn’t do that in Meeren – it seems like she is very isolated and has little contact with what is happening and has to rely on other people for help rather look for people on the inside.

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    141. Icekhione: denying Jon and Arya their Warg abilities. They have also played down the bond between the Starks and their direwolves. Which is unfortunate.

      I’ll never bitch too much about changes because I’m so thrilled we’ve gotten something so well done and mostly from the books when we could have never had anything. Think of all the wonderful fantasy series that never come to life in this fashion. However… the one thing that’s disappointed me throughout is how they’ve limited the direwolves involvement to essentially just big pet dogs that are rarely seen or mentioned. I’ll never harp on it but if we’ve seen the extent of how they’re going to be used in GoT it will always be the first thing I think of in the topic of what things should have been done differently in the series.

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    142. Icekhione,

      Yeah I expected Ghost to have more of a reaction to Jon coming back. When he left the courtyard in Oathbreaker, it would have been awesome to see Ghost follow him. I hope they don’t bring back Nymeria just to kill her off. It would be so awesome to have Arya reunite with her and bring the pack to Winterfell. An army of badass wolves seems awesome! Heck, they didn’t even put in much effort with Shaggydog’s head. Just thinking about how they sidelined the direwolves and the Starks warging annoys me to no end… 🙁

      They always throw the excuse that CGI is expensive, but they have no problems increasing the size of the dragons abnormally fast and pool a lot of money into them. They spent a ton of money on that friggin Vaes Dothrak temple only to burn it an episode later, even though they could have reused and updated the season 1 sets. A wolf shouldn’t be more expensive than a dragon imo. It would be an amazing twist to kill off one of those dragons early. The fight against the WW would be more suspenseful. I don’t think it would be hard for the 3 dragons to burn a bunch of wights. Based on what we’ve seen….there aren’t any archers in the WW army 😛

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    143. Firannion: There are other potential choices for her than the false dichotomy of ‘dragon versus Mhysa.’

      Except that dichotomy is exactly what plays out in Danny’s “vision quest” in her last POV chapter in Dance with Dragons?

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    144. ash,

      It’s not hard if, for example, you cut down some the Super Daario Brothers’s shenanigans from that episode. I don’t think adding a brief scene of Dany bonding with those widows in the tent is too much to ask. It seems there’s always time for filler like Sam and Gilly’s “see”/”sea” thing, or Tyrion talking about having conversations for 5 minutes…

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    145. Were I the sort to be contrasting book and show, and determining one to be “wrong”, somehow.. I’d be much more concerned about Dany being fire-proof one time, and never again, than consistently fire-proof.

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    146. Flayed Potatoes: See, I actually think she will rule. Otherwise, why did GURM waste my time with her taking leadership 101 classes in ADWD? lmao

      In Martin’s initial plans, Dany probably wouldn’t have spent any significant amount of time in Slaver’s Bay. Then he came to the conclusion that too little time had passed in the first three books and that the kids — Dany included — were too young to embark on a world-saving adventure. He thus ended A Storm of Swords with her making a choice to stay and rule in Meereen. He intended to begin the next book 5 years later where her “ruling time” would be quickly covered in flashback and Dany would be back on track to Westeros.

      Here Martin’s “gardener, not architect” approach blew up in his face. During the writing of Book 4, he realized he didn’t like the 5 year gap after all so he needed to portray Dany’s stay in Meereen in a much more thorough fashion. And since he’s first and foremost a character writer, Martin decided he couldn’t just wave away the reasons for her leaving the city in turmoil; he felt that he needed a proper, fully fleshed out character arc that culminates in Dany’s decision to finally leave Slaver’s Bay without it seeming out of character.

      In short: it was never Martin’s intention to spend a dozen or so chapters where Dany “learns to rule”. It was a (huge) side effect of eliminating the now (in)famous 5 year gap which then led to even more (in)famous Meereenese Knot.

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    147. I HEART DEAD LANNISTERS (EVEN TYRION):
      Jon is supposed to be changed from the stabbing, the only change I saw was he became an even bigger sulky bitch. He should be ready for war and tearing out throats now, but he’s like, well we don’t know Ramsay has Rickon and besides, I want to run away south and get warm. WTF? You have a perfect blueprint, use it for fucks sake

      George hasn’t really provided us as of yet with a Jon POV chapter post-stabbing and post-resurrection, so I don’t really know what’s the “perfect blueprint” you’re talking about…

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    148. Flayed Potatoes,

      Sam and Gilly have been in one scene this season so far, and they’re not going to appear in episode 5. I doubt they’ll be in more than four episodes, and will have very little screen time this season, so I think we can excuse them having a very basic scene (although still important as it showed them sailing, and established the notion of travelling to Horn Hill). I also saw no problem with the Daario stuff.

      The Tyrion scene, on the other hand, was a bit more filler, but he is a lot more popular than Dany, and they obviously feel like they have to have him in every episode.

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    149. Flayed Potatoes,

      Yes, they totally blew it with Ghost and Jon’s reunion after the resurrection. A brief shot of Ghost staring blankly and then nothing, he disappeared. Would it have killed them to include a shot of Ghost coming up to Jon and Jon touching and saying something to him at least? Where’s that deep bond between them? They’ve been consistently screwing us out of that. Why bother with the direwolves at all then? It’s obvious the dragons get preferential treatment.

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    150. Knight of the Walkers,

      Honestly, with the Tyrion scene they could have just cut to the chase and start it when Varys appeared and throw Tyrion another witty line if needed. I know he’s popular, but it’s not like Dany lacks fans either. I’ve never understood why they felt the need to shove Tyrion in every episode. I’m sure the show won’t get cancelled if he misses one lol.

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    151. I understand why Jon is the way he is after his murder and rezz, but it doesn’t make for a compelling tv. Hopefully it’s just that one episode, and now things will be looking up. I hope we see a meaner/darker side to him too. There’s got to be more of him changed than just him being tired of it all.

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    152. Mihnea:
      Sou,

      It wasn’t in the show.

      But I still think will get the 3 fires. Drgon’s was 1 and now we have the 2nd, when will we get the 3rd.

      If we go by the books, we’re also still due a third betrayal, also for love (once for blood – the witch, once for money – Jorah, once for love – ???)

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    153. Great post. I love the books but the petty whiny criticisms of book readers annoy me. There are many things I enjoy in the books more than the show for sure, there are also plenty of things in the show I like better than the books. I enjoy them both in their own medium.

      I am betting all the fireproof whiners will be at a loss when WoW finally does come out and this happens in the books also. This is the 2nd fire she must lite (One for death). She still has two to go in the books…

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    154. Focusing on the OP and not so much on comments that followed: I think that there’s a lot more to (some) viewers’ discomfort with the final scene in S6 E4 than just the question of whether Dany is or is not fireproof at all times. I for one can accept that it’s show-canon that she is. I just find myself rolling my eyes at Dany every time she gets into ‘fire and blood’ mode. When she says stuff like that, to me she doesn’t sound badass or powerful; she sounds spoiled and petulant, like a little kid saying ‘I’m gonna take my toys and go home!’

      In both books and show, I found her a likable, relatable character in the first volume/season, when she was an underdog. Once she became ‘entitled,’ I got turned off, the same way I felt about Stannis. People who think they’re better or have more rights than other people on account of their aristocratic bloodlines (or godlike destinies) are not people I’d care to know. And that lack of identification makes me care a whole lot less about her story. By contrast, it’s tough to imagine that Jon, even after he finds out his true origins, will turn into someone I wouldn’t enjoy knocking back a couple of ales with. Guess I’m just a proletarian at heart.

      As for BryndenBFish’s reference to ‘the satisfaction and righteousness of vengeance’: That to me is bush-league moral philosophy. Vengeance does not equal justice. It has bred feuds and wars since time immemorial. It drags the victim down to the oppressor’s level. I predict that high among the takeaway messages of GRRM’s story, in the end, will be that revenge is ultimately unsatisfying and not worth the humanity that one must sacrifice in order to achieve it. We will see this most clearly demonstrated in Arya’s arc, but the theme will recur in others’ as well.

      On what do I base this surmise? GRRM may not be 100% pacifist, as someone pointed out upthread, but I do think it significant that he became a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War. I don’t think that people who weren’t alive then realize how difficult a task it was to be classified as a CO (otherwise many more of the young men who went to jail, fled to Canada, faked mental illness etc. to avoid the draft would have done it). It wasn’t a simple matter of filling out a form; you had to undergo a hearing that could be pretty brutal – comparable to the way that rape victims are ‘put on trial.’ If the Selective Service officials could come up with the slightest indication that you would entertain the use of force in any circumstance, they could arbitrarily deny you CO status. (There’s a famous story about a gay author – I forget who it was – who was grilled about what he would do to intervene if he saw that his sister about to be raped, and he slyly replied, ‘I would endeavor to come between them.’) Even nowadays, I know Jewish people who sent their kids to Quaker summer camps in order to build up their nonviolence portfolios, just in case the draft gets reinstated one day.

      GRRM had to have been very serious in his antiwar beliefs to put himself through that ordeal. So I find it extremely difficult to believe that he is going to cater completely to readers’/viewers’ (understandable) desire to see our downtrodden heroes ‘triumph’ over their persecutors. He will give us a few fist-pump moments when certain horrible characters die horribly (some at Arya’s hands), as a reward for our endurance of the sufferings of our heroes. But if he ends the story there and does not make the protagonists evolve further, to a point where they forswear vengeance and choose peace, then he fails us mightily, in my view. (Whether the showrunners choose to replicate that approach remains to be seen, of course. Screen audiences tend to demand maximum vengeful, violent payback, character development be damned.)

      That in a nutshell is why Dany torching the khals, walking through fire and accepting the adulation of her new mega-khalasar strikes me as narratively cheap and cheesy. I see it as pandering, and it’s not the kind of development that will ever endear a character to me. Your mileage may vary.

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    155. Great writeup. I’ve long been of the opinion that Dany’s going to go full Mad King by the end of ASOIAF. She’s exhibited far too many traits in common with the late tyrant, and though she has a good heart, those Targaryen traits are going to turn her a little farther from the forces of good. Oh Mhysa, breaker of chains, come to take back what’s hers with a a barbarian army on horseback.

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    156. Very enjoyable article, Brynden! I really appreciate how the examples that you cited demonstrate that adaptation need not replicate the original scene beat for slavish beat in order to faithfully convey the intended significance. The same thematic message can be effectively portrayed on the page and on screen by taking advantage of the comparative strengths each medium possesses. The two need not be in conflict, and one need not constantly be deemed superior to the other (As someone who loves both Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire, but generally prefers the show to the books – especially at this point in the story – that’s a lesson I occasionally need to remind myself of as well).

      I adored Dany’s fiery victory over the assembled Khals, both as a thrilling visual spectacle and for its thematic importance in Dany’s arc. I knew that Dany’s immunity to fire would be a sticking point for some, to the point that I threw up my “I don’t care, it doesn’t matter” guard almost immediately. And indeed, there’s been some backlash, most of which I have gone out of my way to ignore. But over time, initial reactions can give way to more substantive analysis and discourse. I’m glad that you decided to revisit the scene with a fresh eye, and found something valuable to consider.

      If anything, your analysis inspired me to revisit Dany’s last chapter in ADWD. I certainly remember the visions and the important lesson that Dany took from them, but I’m afraid that in recent years I’ve lapsed into making jokes about Dany going on a bad trip and shitting brown water, and how glad I was that the show didn’t cover any of that. I have no shortage of serious issues with AFFC and ADWD, but that particular chapter deserves a more careful reevaluation. Hopefully I can get to that soon.

      I’m going to pass on most of the comments, because I have no interest in refighting some tired battles tonight. But I hope there’s room for more civil, fair-minded discussions like this one in the future.

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    157. Firannion: But if he ends the story there and does not make the protagonists evolve further, to a point where they forswear vengeance and choose peace, then he fails us mightily, in my view.

      I picture your comments as suggesting George should end the book with everyone saying, “just kidding… my bad,” shake hands and head for the meadows to frolic and nap. I can’t imagine you’re desiring something quite that mundane. Such an anticlimactic finish in a fantasy series/show after everything that’s been building would be… well, awful.

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    158. A very nice write-up. Thanks, I enjoyed it.

      Regarding Dany being fireproof – I like to go back to grrm’s 1998 quote-

      “Lastly, some fans are reading too much into the scene in GAME OF THRONES where the dragons are born —
      which is to say, it was never the case that all Targaryens are immune to all fire at all times.”

      which can be rephrased as – some Targaryens are immune to fire some of the time.

      Dany being fireproof is like “Chekhov’s gun” – I think grrm will fire it more than once.

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    159. Good write up

      On initial.viewing I often get squirmy about things but after a day or two i often end up being relaxed about it all and it isn’t a big deal

      Ultimately iy ends up being small things, like better to do away with Dany being irritatingly smug

      This often holds true for really controversial scenes like Sansa’s rapegate which make sense several episodes later , eg in that case after the “bastard” conversatioj, then u see Ramsay behaviour is about power within the relationship given that because of her name a kot of the “trueborn” power lies with her

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    160. I think something equivalent to this may happen in the books, whether or not there’s another special circumstance that allows Dany to survive a fire, because it would perfectly fit being the “fire for death” among her three fires. I’m not sure just having Drogon burn the khals would be enough to fit that bill, though, because that wouldn’t be a fire she personally lit (unless she does something to give it a hand) and if that could count, so would the time her dragon burned the Masters in Astapor.

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    161. Icekhione:
      They have also played down the bond between the Starks and their direwolves. Which is unfortunate.

      Don’t see how is warging so damn important to Jon right now on the show. It might be in the books for his soul eventually but show handled it well. Arya yeah she should have been the one along with Bran because of Nymeria and her pack, but they want him to be special. Much like Daeny. Ice and Fire.

      Connection with direwolves. You’re partially right. Nymeria was not seen for a long time, GW and Lady long dead. Shaggy quickly killed. Ghost and Jon their bond is better this season finally, hopefully we can see him later on in the season fighting. Summer is who knows where. Dragons are the main selling point and rightfully so.

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    162. Point is, all i want is the show to at least continue being intelligent, and one has to allow that a visual medium has to explore things differently than a literary one

      In this case it’s fine, as for Dany it’s a case of her thematically going full Fire + Blood Targaryen and casting aside all attempts at benign rulership

      Eg just “burn it all down” and in the show at least i guess there may be something of a blood sacrifoce element? (Fire + Blood)

      Personally i expect her to just lead the Dothraki to Slaver Bay and raze the entire joint before sailing to Westeros

      The irony is that she may be the Ying to the Night’s King Yang, her invasion from the South with hordes of (possible greyscale infected undead) hordes of dothraki not much different than the Night’s King incasion from the North

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    163. Markus Stark,

      She certainly didn’t come out of the hut perfectly clean. Her body is full of smoke which doesn’t show very well because of the fire in the background. In S1 we see Daenerys many hours after the pyre. It is almost dawn then. In this episode she comes out of the hut almost immediately.
      About the easy spread of the fire: I got the impression that somehow some inflammable liquid was spillt before around the place. Maybe this Lazareen widow has helped Jorah and Daario with this. The speed with which the fire spreads implies it. In addition there are no exit windows as far as I can see. The ones I can see are placed high enough to be reached…
      D&D showed that Daenerys was immune to fire already in S1 at a time when Martin was greatly involved in the series. Had he had objections about it he would have raised them because this is a very important element of the story. Which means that he had no objections to the fireproof Dany.
      After a 3 quite quiet and subdued episodes centered around Jon’s resurrection we all needed a moment like this. A reminder of who Daeny really is and what is the effect of her Mereen failures. She is now Fire & Blood and she will take charge of her destiny. And we go on with this because there is a lot more…

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    164. I always come in late to these discussions and then get disheartened in replying when there are so many intelligent and articulate posters.

      Excellent Thesis BryndenBFish.. good to be reminded that really, Dany has the hard-core choice.. to be Mhysa or Mother of Dragons.. funny how in the books she continually innerlogues “If I turn back, I’m Lost”

      I am an Adult.. I can enjoy both the books and the show. I can add my own ‘fillers’ to make up for show faults.. At present, the one big fault I have with this current season is why the Hell hasn’t Davos strangled Melisandre but considering this last episode, he doesn’t know yet but we have that preview shot of him staring at the remains of a pyre and you can’t tell me that he won’t find Shireen’s Wooden stag in those ashes. (and Yes! .. I’m not even going to complain “How the Hell that thing didn’t get consumed by the fire” :oP) I will not even complain if he threw Mel into a fire in promise of giving a wooden Doe to accompany it 😀

      I also will lay bets that a Future Bran vision to Winterfell, will feature Lysanna body been brought home and Wyllis eventual muteness, be linked to his love and despair at the lost of her (and with Bran’s words been heard by past persons, what if Bran influences Wyllis shock. Could “Hodor” simply be “Hold Her” (as in hold her one last time?)

      As for the end game.. I love Daenerys but I feel she will die. (that will be one of George’s bitter-sweet endings) I would love to see her melt the Iron Throne by Dragon-breath, preferably with Littlefinger on it, and so by confirming two statements from Got.. “he would be King of Ashes” … and “I’m gong to Break the Wheel”

      I could Rabbit on… but I will always thank GRRM for giving me such a beautiful fantasy world and for D&D for visualising it and …

      at least a Conclusion!
      …my pessimistic nature does believe George will never finish this series (sob) :o(

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    165. Firannion,

      But that is the point of Dany’s arc and the antithesis to Jon’s. She is meant to be entitled but she has to pay a price all the time for this. He is not entitled but he has to try to prove that he is and he has to pay a price for this. There is a perfect symmetry about it. Now your own feelings about “entitled characters” is something that are irrelevant to a story which is centered around an entitled character. It means that you don’t like such characters but that doesn’t mean that Dany’s portrayal is a bad one or that it suffers because of your general detest to this kind of people…

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    166. Hers is clearly the arc of the character you initially like and feel for turning heel. Much like Jaime went from child throwing sister f’er into a lot of people’s favorite character. Oh favorite cool character that people like? I guess superwoman Brienne of Tarth will kill Jaime after she kills Davos. YAY

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    167. El-Bobbie,

      In any case if one pays attention to her body when she comes out of the hut they will clearly see that she is dirty because of the smoke…

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    168. People still can’t seperate the two products
      Lol. It makes me laugh

      Also, why can others have magic and not Dany

      None of y’all make any sense

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    169. HereBeDragons: I also will lay bets that a Future Bran vision to Winterfell, will feature Lysanna body been brought home and Wyllis eventual muteness, be linked to his love and despair at the lost of her (and with Bran’s words been heard by past persons, what if Bran influences Wyllis shock. Could “Hodor” simply be “Hold Her” (as in hold her one last time?)

      Interesting possibility, that Wyllis the stableboy might have had a hopeless crush on highborn Lady Lyanna and been devastated by her death! And ‘Hold her’ is a refreshing alternative to ‘Hold the door,’ which always sounded kind of dopey to me.

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    170. Rebekah Fletcher:
      Here’s a theory:

      Danaerys is only immune to fire when she’s doing blood magic. When she burned the khals in their own temple she was doing some seriously powerful blood magic. King’s blood, fire, holy place… it’s no wonder that she would not only be fireproof, but also not need to breathe, not get crushed by falling stuff, and instantly receive the adulation of the people who used to follow her sacrifices.

      Dany walking through fire is a spell, not a superpower. She seems to have an instinctive aptitude for fire and blood magic, which could come from her blood, or could be Rh’llor or some other entity guiding her. The powers she gets are not so different from the ones Melisandre gets, or attempts to get, from burning people with king’s blood. Only while Mel has studied for centuries to master her powers, Dany doesn’t seem to even realize what she’s doing.

      Does hatching dragon eggs always require sacrifice and fire? We know the Targaryens have attempted it before, at a Summerhall, but they didn’t get it quite right.

      “three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love…” This is the second fire, I think. The third will likely also involve her walking through fire and doing blood magic.

      HelloThere,
      Markus Stark,
      Flayed Potatoes,

      Hmmm…

      I was going to object to this theory, but upon reflection, I find myself liking it…

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    171. Geralt of Rivia,

      I don’t know about Icekhione or anyone else, but for me the warging elements aren’t just what I’ve missed regarding the direwolves. While I read I saw them as a big part of the Stark family storylines. They not only have a bond with the children but with their wolf siblings as well, which we know about later through warging. They are mentioned a lot throughout and have done several things that have been excluded in the show, major and not. I believe many feel this way and why it was such a huge point early on when we saw or didn’t see them in episodes, and also why it’s so sad when something happens to them.

      In the books only two of them are dead (as far was we know) and the other four are still with or have a ‘connection’ with their Stark child. However, on the show we’re so used to not seeing them much or them hardly doing anything now, along with Bran’s unique ability, that it has created a feeling of less importance. It’s not all bad as they have popped up now and then to do something, such as Ghost released to fight wildlings in Castle Black and Summer defending Bran when they got to the cave… It’s just not what I expected overall when the series began.

      I know all the reasons we’ve discussed for not using them more, but I still wanted it dammit. 🙂

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    172. Clob: I picture your comments as suggesting George should end the book with everyone saying, “just kidding… my bad,” shake hands and head for the meadows to frolic and nap.I can’t imagine you’re desiring something quite that mundane.Such an anticlimactic finish in a fantasy series/show after everything that’s been building would be… well, awful.

      As the folks over at the Harry Potter Alliance say, “Imagine Better.”

      Have you read Neil Gaiman’s American Gods (my favorite novel of the 21st century so far)?

      It builds the reader up for a huge climactic battle between the Old Gods and the New at the end – a modern Ragnarok, in fact, since Odin and Loki are two of the key characters, though many other pantheons participate. And you know what happens?

      Spoiler Alert:

      Realizing that he’s being manipulated, the hero intervenes and talks both sides out of going through with the battle. He shows them how much they have to lose, regardless of who wins, and helps them figure out how to coexist.

      And it’s EPIC: not mundane or anticlimactic at all…because, you know, Neil Gaiman.

      Surely George has the wherewithal as a storyteller to come up with an ending that is neither a trite, cliched vengeancefest nor folks sitting in a circle singing ‘Kumbaya,’ but something that will surprise and delight. I have faith in him.

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    173. Clob,

      Heartily Agree.

      Pissed off that Arya never had her Warg moment when in her blind state. (guess we’re never getting Nymeria back. If Lady Stoneheart is gone.. I guess you could argue so are any major plots for Gendry, BWB and Nymeria too :o(

      I’m a dog-lover so the Stark children’s link to their wolves was a big draw to me in the books.

      I still have hope… but in all honesty… Arya’s blindness was the best hope of revisiting Nymeria :o(

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    174. HereBeDragons:

      Could “Hodor” simply be “Hold Her” (as in hold her one last time?)

      This would be so damn sad. It may not happen as you describe but if it did I know I’d never look at Hodor the same way ever again. Such a heartbreaking idea. The fanfic practically writes itself… and I don’t mean that in a negative way.

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    175. Firannion,

      I’m the soppy Romantic and while I know GRRM is not giving us a fairytale… I still hope Sansa and Sandor will meet again, just as much as I hope for Jaime and Brienne. (NO! ..I do not ‘ship’ this Torienne, though I find it humourous)

      And though we may never see it … I definately believe Lysanna was the “Knight of the Laughing Tree” and that Rhaegar found her that night and so began their admiration and love affair.

      If there is one Joy left for me … we’ll get a TV special on the Tourney of Harrenhall :oD

      (You can bet your Ass we’re getting R+L=J at the end of this Season!!! ;o)

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    176. Count me as another who really,really, really wishes we got more of the direwolves in the show!

      On the subject of Dany’s sense of entitlement, yes, she absolutely thinks herself entitled to the Iron Throne. However, she is not what I think of as the typical “entitled” type. She grew up without any stable home, moving from place to place trying to stay ahead of those who wanted to kill her, had as her main guardian her mentally unstable and abusive brother, and was sold in marriage to someone said brother thought could help him win the Iron Throne. She’s taken a long, long time to come into her own, and while she’s failed time and again, has made an attempt to make the world a better place. In terms of sense of entitlement (sticking with a female character), I think of a character like Arianne.

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    177. Firannion: Have you read Neil Gaiman’s American Gods (my favorite novel of the 21st century so far)?

      I have read American Gods. Gaiman is actually one of my favorite authors. I’m looking forward to the adaptation of that as well. I was initially upset that it flipped from HBO to Starz, but in my opinion their programming is improving so I’m optimistic. Anywaaay….

      I guess I can’t see a similar ending as satisfactory for ASoIaF. GRRM obviously doesn’t sway from writing about wars, battles, brutality and death so I couldn’t use that alone as a reason to believe he’ll go for an all out peaceful resolution. I mean, I do expect a peace at the very end but not before some kind of massive clash. This a sword & board fantasy after all, complete with Machiavellian politics, magic, dragons, giants, ice spiders, undead creatures. The Others go around killing with no questions asked and building an army of wights… I don’t expect nor want to see the ending be some kind of summit meeting between the Night’s King, Daenerys, Jon, etc. where they all drink tea and agree to be nice to everyone as a rainbow forms over the The Wall.

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    178. I’m glad I went thru all the frustration and anger during season 5. And sadness too, as I realised my favourite story wasn’t going to be adapted in the way I had expected or hoped. I was dreading season 6. Even more so after George’s open letter.

      But now, I’m loving it. I’ve got books to look forward to and an awesomely made production in the meantime.

      Episode 4 nailed it for me. I didn’t know what they were doing but now I kinda do. CANT WAIT FOR MORE!!!

      Dany’s fireproofness doesn’t bother me in fact I LOVE that final scene. The way she raises her chin slightly as the chorus rises. :heartheartheart: She’s fireproof in the show but probably not in the books. Of all the changes made I find it odd (nah not really) that ppl waste time chatting about it.

      LESS THAN 24 HOURS YO!!! 😀

      A nice read btw ty

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    179. Ser Lurk of House Turnip: But now, I’m loving it. I’ve got books to look forward to and an awesomely made production in the meantime.

      That’s a good way to look at it.

      Here’s my thing… I’ve read and watched countless books, book series, movies and tv shows and there is always one common thing that exists when I love the material… I want more!!! That’s a common thing of course since people flood to sequels and everyone is always suggesting spinoffs to keep the story going. I think that very thing relates to why I don’t mind some changes to the adaptation. We’re getting the same main characters that for much of the time have been doing what they did in the books. It’s great to see a visual retelling of the story. However, when they do things unexpected I can look at it as “additional material.” I’ve read how things happened one way and now I can see the same character do something a bit different. Who knows, maybe when I was reading I didn’t like what he or she was doing and thought to myself, “why isn’t (this) happening,” and then the show does something closer to that idea. We have the next book now to look forward to. Perhaps with the information they have several things will be the same, but certainly many things will be different. Some of those will be better, but I bet some won’t. 🙂

      I already know that there will be a bunch of Dorne related stuff in the next book that the show is apparently, and graciously glossing over. I’m not excited about that…

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    180. Firannion: And it’s EPIC: not mundane or anticlimactic at all…because, you know, Neil Gaiman.

      heh, actually, it really is not “epic”: but it is is really good! You hit a key nail on the head: Martin & Gaiman both are fundamentally modern novelists using the fantastic for their plots. Gaiman obviously appears to be more “modern” because almost all of his books are set in our world with some twists: but his stories (like GRRM’s) always are about people working out who the hell they really are.

      I do think that we will see a similar type of resolution. However, I think that there will be a big difference: Jon, Daeny, etc., are going to deeply regret whatever it is that they have to do.

      (By the way, as great as American Gods is, I think that The Graveyard Book is even better! And that also is a good one to look at for how much more bittersweet an ending can be when the protagonist survives…..)

      Nymeria Warrior Queen: On the subject of Dany’s sense of entitlement, yes, she absolutely thinks herself entitled to the Iron Throne.

      The problem is, the word “entitled” has taken a new meaning such that I think that we should not phrase it like that. Daeny does not think herself “entitled” to the Throne in the sense that she thinks that she somehow deserves it. Daeny believes that it is her moral obligation to be Queen of Westeros. The code of honor among Westerosi nobility is basically a morality code. That is why it is easy to confuse Stannis with a religious fanatic: he is a moral absolutist, which is something you usually only see in religious whackos like the High Sparrow. Daeny is less rigid in her moral views than is Stannis: but she still fundamentally adheres to the idea that an individual’s first and foremost obligation is to uphold his/her family’s “honor.”

      Thus, we can stand this on it’s head. Daeny is not operating under the belief that she is entitled to the Throne: she is operating under the belief that she is not entitled to let another family occupy that Throne.

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    181. Here’s a warning for tomorrow’s open chat thread. I don’t normally follow locations that post spoiler things but in looking for general discussion I’ve read that it looks like episode 5 MAY have leaked in a certain market. Be careful if you’re wishing to avoid spoilers.

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    182. Ser Lurk of House Turnip: The way she raises her chin slightly as the chorus rises. :heartheartheart: She’s fireproof in the show but probably not in the books. Of all the changes made I find it odd (nah not really) that ppl waste time chatting about it

      I would not be surprised if this is basically what happens in the books. Daeny almost certainly is going to be dragged back to Vaes Dothrak. (I guess Drogon is going to decide that he’d rather be elsewhere.) And once there, she is going to have to do something spectacular to get free and get the Dothraki behind her. (I had once thought that just having a dragon would be enough: but I am beginning to think that would not serve the story.)

      There is also another factor to consider: R’hllor. We might find out this week that R’hllor’s accolites have believe Daeny to be earmarked by R’hllor for great deeds. R’hllor is supposed to be right up there with Gandalf in terms of doing fire tricks: and thus there might be more happening here that just Daeny’s Valyrian ancestry.

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    183. HBO Nordic effed up and has played Episode 5. Just a warning to my unsullied friends that if you look for info you may run across spoilers online. Google safely! Lol.

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    184. Dee: Speaking of dorne, I was hoping we would get some more dorne stuff. Doesn’t look like it

      For what misdeed are you trying to atone?!?! Might I recommend something less painful, like self-mutilation instead?

      😀

      Seriously, the Dorne stuff this year looked to be the “classic” (well, now classic in the age of season-long storytelling) “cut out the loose ends from last year’s plot.” It seemed odd to see that when shows first started doing it about 10 years ago, but it has become commonplace since then.

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    185. ghost of winterfell:
      Pigeon,

      This is so stupid! HBO itself fucking up. I suppose this episode will be up in all torrents in no time.

      I know. I like spoilers and knowing what will happen, and read pretty much everything. But I don’t like that there are those who almost always get things ruined (or just the surprise taken away) by carelessness of others. And HBO hasn’t been able to cap things this year. I suppose at least they didn’t leak 4 episodes in full like last year!!!

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    186. Mihnea,

      I think the argument for this is that not everyone followed Jesus after these things…clearly. Haha, but I agree this is all nitpicking and I think the dothraki kneeling just symbolizes Dany’s power, not supposed to show the Dothraki loyalty, just that they see her power now.

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    187. Markus Stark:
      My main issues with the scene are logic and execution related. I’m sure 99% of people here will disagree with me, but here it goes anyway. First of all, we know Targaryens are not immune to fire, in books or show. So why is Daenerys immune ? She is just inherently magical ? Why ? The only way I can swallow this is if she is in fact Azor Ahai reborn and has some inherent magical abilities that no other Targaryen has. Second, is she also immune to debris falling on her head ? We saw heavy pieces of wood falling on some of the Khals, why couldn’t one of those pieces of wood have fallen on Dany and knocked her out cold ?
      Also, why does she look immaculate ? At the end of the first season they did a wonderful job of covering her in soot and ash. But here her skin looks amazingly clean, as does her hair. Obviously I’m nitpicking, but attention to detail is important.
      Naturally, I won’t even get into the absurd speed with which the hut caught on fire, and climbed the stairs of the hut.
      The Khals are also weirdly weak apparently, since one would think they could have easily busted out of there with their combined strength. The walls weren’t solid wood, there were openings and windows.

      Another point that really bothers me is this idea that all the dothraki are going to worship her now. Jorah said there were 100 thousand of them, and the dothraki hate magic. They should be calling her a witch. You expect me to believe 100 thousand dothraki are going to accept that this witch slaughtered all of their leaders ? I’m sure some would, either because of fear or because they think she is a God, but surely some of those 100 thousand dothraki would be pissed that she murdered their Khals. After all, it only takes one guy to walk up and kill her. How could Daenerys be certain that not one single guy would have an issue with her ? The whole thing is just highly implausible. I understand that they wanted to show her doing something without her dragons, and I appreciate that aspect of it, but honestly in this case I think having Drogon there would have made their instant submission more believable. If only because they would all be scared to death of the dragon, and none of them would have any weapons to fight it even if they dared.

      Before anyone tells me I’m a show hater, let me just say I love this series to death which is why I want it to be as good as it can be. I love the books and the show. And I loved episode 4. Dany’s scene was good. It just doesn’t really hold up to scrutiny, and this is becoming a trend.
      Feel free to disagree with me as passionately as you want, let’s just try to stay away from personal attacks and name calling.
      And if any of you have good, sound explanations for the logical issues I’ve raised, feel free to tell me. Believe me, I don’t want to have any criticisms of the show. I would love nothing more than to be able to say the show is perfect and share in people’s excitement about Dany’s big moment. I just see too many problems (though most are admittedly minor) with it to do that.

      I love the article and how BryndenBFish analyzed the link between the show and the book but I also appreciate your post. There’s nothing wrong with dissenting opinions – we all have different minds! It actually makes it more interesting and exciting when people who see the “good” and those who see the “bad” can express their thoughts and feelings in a wonderful site like this.

      My experience of that scene was a little different from BryndenBFish’s. I was so pumped to see her finally take over. I thought, Dany’s back! It’s after I re-watched it that I started nitpicking and noticed some of the implausible parts of the scene that you mentioned (I agree with most of what you pointed out). After a while though, I decided to let them go and just enjoy this wild ride that is GOT.

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    188. Clob:
      Here’s a warning for tomorrow’s open chat thread.I don’t normally follow locations that post spoiler things but in looking for general discussion I’ve read that it looks like episode 5 MAY have leaked in a certain market.Be careful if you’re wishing to avoid spoilers.

      Thanks for the warning! I don’t like spoilers. I want to be surprised. I’d visit the show chat then after the show’s airing.

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    189. Icekhione:
      Flayed Potatoes,

      Yes, they totally blew it with Ghost and Jon’s reunion after the resurrection. A brief shot of Ghost staring blankly and then nothing, he disappeared. Would it have killed them to include a shot of Ghost coming up to Jon and Jon touching and saying something to him at least? Where’s that deep bond between them? They’ve been consistently screwing us out of that. Why bother with the direwolves at all then? It’s obvious the dragons get preferential treatment.

      No, it’s not preferential treatment. D&D mentioned in an interview that it’s more difficult and more expensive to do the direwolf CGI than dragon CGI. It’s unfortunate but it is what it is. I would have loved to see Ghost reunite with resurrected Jon as well as with Sansa, too. However, the producers probably thought such scenes, while heartwarming and moving, will not be needed to move the story forward.

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    190. Sam,
      Icekhione,
      Yes. Essentially, dragon scales are a hard material, so they don’t move much around. Hair/fur is a soft material, and each hair also moves essentially separately. CGIing fur is simply much more difficult and expensive to do believably than scales. They probably want to avoid making the wolves look like something from a video game (and a cheap one, at that).

      Quality over quantity.

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    191. Killing all the Khals like that doesn’t make any sense at all!
      How she can rule them without any one of then in her side? Like Daario and the second sons
      It was hatsy and stupid decision
      What if one of the Khals has a son?!!!
      Is she really thinks that she can burn people like that and run away with it?!
      And she keep repeating that she’s “not her father’s daughter” !! , so funny
      If she thinks she can rule Weastrose like that she must think again
      The Weastrosei people learn a lot from 300 years of experience :
      It’s not hard to kill a dragon
      It’s not hard to kill a king
      It’s not hard to start a rebellion

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    192. The Blood of Winterfull:
      Killing all the Khals like that doesn’t make any sense at all!
      How she can rule them without any one of then in her side? Like Daario and the second sons
      It was hatsy and stupid decision
      What if one of the Khals has a son?!!!
      Is she really thinks that she can burn people like that and run away with it?!
      And she keep repeating that she’s “not her father’s daughter” !! , so funny
      If she thinks she can rule Weastrose like that she must think again
      The Weastrosei people learn a lot from 300 years of experience :
      It’s not hard to kill a dragon
      It’s not hard to kill a king
      It’s not hard to start a rebellion

      Er…

      The way you obtain a khalasar and become a Khal is, usually per Dothraki tradition, by killing the previous Khal, or by killing various challengers for the position after the death of a Khal; the position is not inherited. A Khal’s son would only succeed as Khal by a show of force and by killing the various pretenders for the position.

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    193. Firannion:
      Surely George has the wherewithal as a storyteller to come up with an ending that is neither a trite, cliched vengeancefest nor folks sitting in a circle singing ‘Kumbaya,’but something that will surprise and delight.I have faith

      Frankly, I think expectations like this may be what in part has given George what amounts to writer’s block over the past 16 years…

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    194. George,

      The constant hate on the show will turn into dislike/disapointment towards the book, when people realize the story won’t go the way they want/hope for.

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    195. Dee,

      The scolding bath and the burning egg, never happened… She is like this from the very first episode, it’s nothing new, people just chose to ignore it because it contradicted their believes.

      Now, the dragons birth could have enhanced her ability. But she is like this from the very beginning of the series.

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    196. Firannion,

      So.. you don’t like where the story and character goes. That doesn’t mean it’s bad writing, it means things simply go in a different direction then you wanted them to go…

      God, when WOW comes out, the meltdown will huge…

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    197. Mihnea,

      Luckily I am still in China and these websites are blocked by government so I can’t even access Twitter or Facebook. Just this website which is very safe 🙂
      Did you get spoilt?

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    198. Mihnea,

      Okay so I kind of like how the show has made her unburnt through and through. I think it’s a magical power that she has that no one else has and I think it’s awesome. I don’t understand the problem with it? Do people think warging is stupid? Or shadow babies and magical necklaces? White walkers? The CoTF? Faceless men?

      This is all magic

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    199. Dee,

      I too like that its a constant ”ability” it works better.

      Hell until Martin confirmed she isn’t fireproof, many believed she was.

      I disliked this statement, if you don’t want her to be fireproof just write it in the story itself, not a interview.
      I also dislike this entire ”it was a 1 time thing”, to me this looks like a lame plot devise, he made just so he can have her survive the pyre that one time and we can have a story.

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    200. I miss one day and I miss all this fun .

      Anyways I have a issues with lots of posts but none so more than this guy .

      Firannion,

      So you want more scenes where dany talking with dosh khallen and make them believe in her ….let’s be honest here would you have stopped saying how boring that storyline is and we know she will get the dothraki its so predictable and so let’s move on..
      Another thing missing totally is when she does do that stuff like in astopor and meereen where she plans and makes the people to fight for her you complained as well ..

      Let’s come to the so called entitlement argument and another stupid comparison with Jon saying how superior Jon is to dany ..
      Is it that hard to get that both have different upbringing …one is bastard son of a lord who has been told he can’t inherit anything ( even though was totally an entitled brat in the first book ) and dany is last surviving member of the ruling house that had been overthrown who has a duty to regain what’s lost ..

      What is entitlement anyway tyrion thinks he is entitled to casterly rock .,sansa thinks she is entitled to take back north ..,Jon was so entitled that he didn’t want to become a squire .,cersei is entitled that she must be the Queen and stannis thinks he is the Rightful king .almost everyone in the series is entitled after all that’s what you get in the series focus on families and names and wars .

      But out of how many of them have actually thought about those people who are under them ..what had they even done for them or cared for them ..

      I agree she is so entitled that she seems to think ” why does god created kings and queens if not to protect those who can’t protect themselves ” or ” a queen should put her people first ” Or,” a queen belongs to her people not to herself ”

      And you are saying that dany thinks she is above of everyone and only she is fit to rule …I challenge you to find one quote that is what she actually believes in ..

      And regarding your point about tyrion being doing the job of feeding the city under siege and dany flown away and can’t get to learn how that is done..
      I just wanted to ask did you even read the books

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    201. Mihnea,

      I would say a lot of this is martin’s fault because he is just too afraid that the series must not be getting called as another regular fantasy series ..and hence he tries to play down the whole magical thing but still want to have magical thing like dany and her pyre ..

      I would not at all be surprised we get to see dany do something similar in the books for second time .

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    202. Mihnea:
      I drink and l know things,

      A difficult task for some, it appears…

      Wrong word. Is not a matter of “difficulty” it a matter of preference. How “difficult” is it for you to switch your preference for vanilla and chocolate?

      I strongly prefer it when one of my favorite books appears on TV. When a mere echo of it does, I am much less satisfied. When a direct affront to the story or a character occurs, I actively dislike it. I am hardly alone in this. You are also mistaken in assuming I perceive my preferences as a problem. Life without them would be dull.

      That being said, I was fine with this particular scene. At the highest level, it is likely thematically the same as the next book, and the general plot of the scene is likely similar. I share a number of the technical nitpicks noted above but that is true of most scenes of this magnitude. For some reason it felt a bit under baked despite all the flames, which I think comes from the double-dipping on the plot. Hopefully GRRM has an extra twist for his version.

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    203. Chad Brick,

      the 6th time Chad, the 6, freaking, time.
      I had to ask Sean C and other 1 single time, I really don’t see why I need to ask you 6! times.

      Just stop, I am not even reading your comments.

      As Sue herself said, lets just ignore one another.
      You write whatever you want, I will do the same, we ignore one another and move along with our lives.

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    204. Icekhione,

      Yeah they preferred them so much it took them five season to name them ..

      See if one chose to complain they can complain on anything .

      Look for the number of episodes wolves and dragons appeared I guess they both will be same

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    205. Flayed Potatoes,

      Even though I would have liked to have more screentime of dany ..would you have liked she having more screentime ..would you not complained boring or doesn’t care .

        Quote  Reply

    206. Let’s talk about this BryndenBFish and this nice article he wrote ..

      Eventhough I never really agree with his views on how dany will turn a villain..i always like to read and listen to him…and its still a season to go to make him realize how wrong he is about some of his prediction ..

      The thing i mostly disagree with many is on the whole point about mother of dragons vs mhysa ..

      Dany embracing her family words does not mean she won’t be mysha hereafter ..she was mother of dragons and going full blown fire and blood when she became mhysa..
      Only when she chained her inner dragon and mother of dragons she seems to have hard time saving and caring her freed men as well
      So inorder to be a mhysa dany needs to be mother of dragons ..

      It goes hand in hand one can’t exist without other ..even though dany is embraced fire and blood and united dothraki she will still free the people and be mhysa only now she will eradicate the slavers and will establish a new civilization for her people.

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    207. Mihnea,

      I strongly disagree with you that meereen shows dany is not fit for ruling but only conquering.. GRRM wanted to show case how a place can be ruled which in no way can be ruled ..

      Let’s see the city was totally locked down to other cities ..its road and sea routes are blocked ..all the trees and fields that can be used for business have been burned down by masters ..the city comes under siege and there is a pale mare threat as well .
      Inside the city we have sons of the harpy ..

      Dany to her credit managed to stop the killings of sons of harpy and united the meereen in fighting other cities ….

      She managed to make a trade between lhazreen people ..

      She as grown trees and made people farm the lands nearby ..

      She as made people get paid for their work even though they are paid less .

      Compassion to those who are affected by pale mare and poor – she goes to them amd feeds them on her own ..

      She started making knights and tried to create turney instead of pit.

      She made a compromise and married the guy she didn’t like and opened the pits and even then she made sure her army is on the alert if there was a sudden a strike ..

      The only thing that dany missed was she should not have compromised in the first place because compromise works with those who want to compromise…the slave masters never wanted to compromise and waiting for the time to destroy dany ..

      Above all shows that dany can become a good ruler with enough knowledge and experience ..the only thing she needed to know was when to compromise and when not to and remember who she is ” Blood of the Dragon ”

        Quote  Reply

    208. Off-Topic Otto,

      danny and her friend did something to the house, oiled it out or something, otherwise why would they emphasize her new friend in that episode?

      It is implied.

        Quote  Reply

    209. Flayed Potatoes,

      Yes it does but sadly show never really went into her inner struggles like in the books and they don’t have time now.

      but that does not mean dany is not capable of doing such thing..it was also already shown in season 1 and at astopor and at yunkai and at meereen .

      This is not directed at you but i see lots of people just like to complain for just sake of complaining and not even watch or read those scenes before complaining ..I mean we have covered in season 1 and in early scene with jorah and daario and with the khals in the hut before dany comes how swords are not allowed in vaes dothrak but there still exists complaints why no one throws a dagger or sword at her .

        Quote  Reply

    210. Yeah, I have a problem with the scene, because even in a fantasy show like this magic shouldn’t be so easy. Why have such an OP character?

        Quote  Reply

    211. dragonbringer,

      To be fair, season 1 also showed that you can kill someone without a sword, so the khals could have just strangled her or broken her neck. I think this is a valid complaint, since they don’t have swords (like you said), but there are other ways. In the same episode, a bloodrider was about to strangle Lord Friendzone to death.

      It’s the lack of that inner conflict being displayed in her case that bothers me. The show has time to show inner conflict from Jon, Arya etc. and show them questioning themselves, so it’s only fair to want that to happen with Dany as well (since she’s a main character).

        Quote  Reply

    212. Flayed Potatoes,

      They tried to attack her, then Dany dropped the second brazier and the fire stopped them, by the time they got on the other side the fire was big and they wanted to escape.

      Not going to answer the 2nd point, because I saw quite a lot of that last season. No point in arguing this, it’s purely subjective on both our sides.

        Quote  Reply

    213. Mihnea,

      Oh yeah I too think she will end up dying for the realm but I think there is 25_℅ chance she may survive ..

      Flayed Potatoes,

      I was specifically speaking about the complain why no one throws or uses a sword.

      You mean like when she is surrounded herself by the fire ..you can see the moment she pushed first one khals starting to approach towards dany but she pushed the second one and making fire distance them
      Have they known that she may surviev the fire ..they woukd have thought she may also be burned with them ..

      That’s what I have been saying from season 2 ..it’s been falling on deaf years and it’s one of the reasons why I hate when Emilia gets blamed ..one can only do so much with what they have been given to work with .

        Quote  Reply

    214. dragonbringer,

      Mossandor, Missandei, Daario, Selmy, Jorah/Tyrion, Tyrion alone, In the pit.
      Burning the master/ Compromising and marrying Hizdhar.

      To me these were enough, I understand why for others it may not have been so, that is exactly why I’m not going to argue this.
      It’s entirely subjective, I thought they did quite a lot, others didn’t. There isn’t really much to argue here.

        Quote  Reply

    215. dragonbringer,

      Yeah the complaint about the swords is dumb. They wouldn’t have swords on them.

      Just because she pushed the braziers in front of them, that doesn’t mean someone can’t run around and attack her from behind. It’s all so….convenient.

      Yes, part of the problem is the material they get, and I think it’s natural to want them to have better one. A part of the issue is also the direction they get. To be fair, there are also actors on the show with meh material who make the most of it and elevate the character. Just look at how much depth Jorah’s actor brings to the table (he made imo show Jorah 1000 times better than book Jorah). Doran had shitty material imo, but the actor made the most of it.

        Quote  Reply

    216. Mihnea,

      Because they saw her touch the hot brazier without flinching, so they knew something was up. You see it on their faces when they react to it.

      If they kill her it also stops her from tipping the other braziers.

        Quote  Reply

    217. Dee,

      Except you see it in the scene. You see when they react to her touching the brazier. And killing her makes her stop tipping the other braziers.

        Quote  Reply

    218. You can call daenerys whatever you want azor ahai or the prince that was promised but after hardhome we can’t deny that it’s jon who is setup to be the night’s king’s nemesis.

        Quote  Reply

    219. Flayed Potatoes,

      Not sure if you’ve been in such a situation but my only instinct would be to try to get out of the fire and that’s it
      My god how do some people enjoy the show when they sit there analyzing every single detail lool

        Quote  Reply

    220. Flayed Potatoes,

      Why would they jump to that conclusion?

      ”oh she touched the brazier” ”Jump on her!!”

      It’s awe, it’s supprise, they are stunned. And by the time they try to act it is to late.
      She drops it, they try to attack her but she blocks them with the 2nd brazier.

      By that time the building is burning really strong and they try to save themselves.

        Quote  Reply

    221. Dee,

      The only complaint I think is somewhat resonable is the speed of the fire.

      Drogo’s gold belt melted in 10 seconds in S1, why? Because we can’t watch 15 minutes of it melting.. It simply doesn’t work on TV.

      But I said in another thread, a night club burned in my country.
      A firework ignited the wooden roof. In 30 seconds debris started falling down on people… Sadly many died.

        Quote  Reply

    222. Dee,

      If they stop her from tipping the other braziers they also have a better chance of stopping the fire from spreading even further.

      If their instinct is to go out the door and they see it’s locked, they would head towards those wooden windows/square things. Since it’s about finding an exit. Except….plot convenience.

        Quote  Reply

    223. Mihnea,

      I think that would have been solved by showing The Super Daario Brothers light up the temple from the outside while the first signs of fire or screams emerge. Then it would believably spread that fast.

        Quote  Reply

    224. Flayed Potatoes,

      They do try. When she knocks the 2nd one, but she is faster.

      It’s not ”plot convenience” the Khals then, seeing the fire is already big, you won’t put that down without firefighters, run to the door, the obvious rout.
      They find it blocked, and before they can act she drops the last brazier.

        Quote  Reply

    225. Mihnea,

      Nigh, impossible 😉

      If one spends all of one’s time looking only for what is wrong, that is all they will find.

      Brynden, I’m glad you decided to opt for the more positive road, which is more than I can say for many others that hold similar opinions! Good on ya!

        Quote  Reply

    226. Flayed Potatoes,

      I will not argue the speed of the fire, the same way I didn’t argue Drogo’s chain melting in 5 seconds.
      I think they did a good job with the fire, not stellar but good.

      But I will disagree that she should have been helped with the fire. That was her moment, not Daario’s or Jorah’s. She took into her hands, her destiny and her future.
      And embraced what she is.
      But I end the discussion here. I will not debate someone who uses ”super Daario brothers…etc” It reminds to much of westeros.org.

        Quote  Reply

    227. Dee,

      Ned getting his head chopped off doesn’t even compare to this situation. If, for example, a giant army came and rescued him right before his head got chopped off, that would be convenient and cheap.

      It is the problem that Dany’s problems always get solved in very quick and convenient ways and the solutions just fall in her lap. The Super Daario Brothers arrive conveniently right on the night of her trial and she enlists their help. All the Khalasars in Essos are conveniently arriving to decide Dany’s faith, which conveniently gives her an enormous army to return in Meereen and conveniently solve her problems with the Harpies who were also conveniently reducing her Unsullied army. There’s no suspense or danger because it’s so predictable. You don’t really see that with the other storylines on the show.

        Quote  Reply

    228. Dee,

      I want to sit next to these people while they watch their favorite movie and pick apart every illogical thing I see, and every pothole and talk about it through the whole movie. And they’ll finally be like, “UGH I DON’T CARE, I JUST LOVE IT! LET ME LOVE IT!”

      Which is what most people are saying at this point about this particular scene.

        Quote  Reply

    229. Flayed Potatoes,

      Robert leaves just when Ned finds out about Cersei and Jaime, he just decides right then he needs a hunt.

      Cersei and Jaime decide to screw in the tower right when Bran climbs it.
      Ramsey manages to pretend he is Reek, like he plays in a Mission: Impossible movie
      ……etc.

      If it is obvious it doesn’t mean its a plot convenience. It simply means this plot point is more straight foward.

      You are free to dislike it but that doesn’t mean it’s a plot convenience.

        Quote  Reply

    230. Dee,

      Not every viewer is the same. Some want to see the logic in certain events and they analyse and make predictions. Just because it bugs you, doesn’t mean it will stop (and on a GoT fansite which centers around discussion and analysis, no less). You can accept leaps in logic in the story, but that doesn’t mean others do the same.

        Quote  Reply

    231. Dee,

      Her story was a bit more predictable, even though people were very convinced Drogon will arrive and save her and they complained that it will be ”dues ex dragon”…..

      They can’t win with these people, no matter what they do, someone will dislike it.

        Quote  Reply

    232. Flayed Potatoes,

      Or who knows, perhaps it made perfect sense for her.

      Just because she doesn’t share you criticism doesn’t mean she makes leaps in logic, it doesn’t mean she is stupid and it doesn’t mean she lacks the necessary inteligence to recognize these ”problems”.

      Don’t look down one others just because they don’t share your criticism.

        Quote  Reply

    233. Dee,

      No not really. I don’t go to that website, so idk what names they use. I enjoy using nicknames for them. I use Lord Friendzone for Jorah as well and that’s an Honest Trailer nickname. I call Jon sometimes Jonny in a teasing way. It’s just a nickname.

      Mihnea,

      I notice you reference westeros.org pretty much every time someone disagrees with you. Just because they don’t see eye to eye with you that doesn’t mean they are a book purist or a regular user on westeros.org.

        Quote  Reply

    234. OT: iM doing a rewatch of episode 4
      Jamie says to Kevan that kevan has the second largest army in westeros. Who has the first ?

        Quote  Reply

    235. Dee,

      Tyrell and Vale are sitting the best right now. I assume he means Tyrell (Olenna is probably happy with the compliment).

        Quote  Reply

    236. Mihnea:
      Chad Brick,

      the 6th time Chad, the 6, freaking, time.
      I had to ask Sean C and other 1 single time, I really don’t see why I need to ask you 6! times.

      Just stop, I am not even reading your comments.

      As Sue herself said, lets just ignore one another.
      You write whatever you want, I will do the same, we ignore one another and move along with our lives.

      You are free to ignore my responses, but my responses are not for you. They are for whomever is reading the thread. If you post something I disagree with, I have every right to respond to it, regardless of what you will do or say you will do.

      I’d like to note that with respect to my second most recent post, to you….guess what….responded to with a content-free insult. Not only do you do a bad job of ignoring me, you repeatedly post personal attacks and unprompted anti-“purist” attacks that frankly should get you banned from the site. You can’t really contribute to the discussion if you are hostile towards people who have different opinions on matters of artistic taste.

        Quote  Reply

    237. Can you say something negative? Seriously the whole show is going downhill full speed. And with post like this “How I stop to worry” …. “Here is why Game of Thrones is so great…” – you seriously think people need to be told this?

      The 5th season sucked terribly, whole thing was carried by Stephen Dillane – who Dumb and Dumber whacked off cause they hate Stannis, and now it shows. There is no one to take torch, no great scenes.

      Worst thing is that I like Tyrion, and his every scene is like Batman and Robin… I think we should have stop at Batman Returns.

        Quote  Reply

    238. Another enjoyable read, BFish. Thanks for highlighting the last Dany chapter in ADwD, one of my absolute favorites. I had to rewatch the scene a few times as well. Regarding the analytical comparison….when Dany stands with Drogon over the dead Dothraki scout and looks upon the approaching khalasar (with fire and blood thoughts running rampant), I wonder if the final show scene (of her walking out of the burning temple and looking at the surrounding Dothraki) was meant to align the mediums.

      Damn, I love this type of analysis. The Meereenese Blot is fantastic as well.

      (Although I still am agitated that your statistical predictions regarding GRRM’s writing pace with TWoW are coming true….why couldn’t GRRM prove you wrong???) 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    239. George: Hmmm…

      I was going to object to this theory, but upon reflection, I find myself liking it…

      Thanks. I was afraid my post had gotten lost in a sea of nitpicking!

        Quote  Reply

    240. Dee,

      The Tyrell army hasn’t done much fighting on the show too, so they haven’t had the losses that the Lannisters had when they were fighting Robb. The Reach is also a heavy-populated area compared to some of the others, so they have the means to raise a large army. It should be an interesting confrontation.

        Quote  Reply

    241. Icekhione,

      Thank you for stating your theory because some of us get called onto the carpet as being haters if we have any criticism in so far as guessing that she could have flaws in her character or even suggest her arc could turn anti-hero for a bit. (when in reality, we are just “guessing” through our perceptions where a story might go, and perhaps some secretly wanting it to happen in order to make her more interesting to us.) And because you have a gender-neutral name you will not get called out for being a misogynist woman who is just jealous of a fictional character’s wondrous combination of “beauty, intelligence and strength.” Yes, because ya know, we do so envy a gal who gets dragons for pets, walks through fire unharmed, commands an army, and gets to be called queen. Like, boohoo life is so unfair, lol 🙂

      OK sorry for the snark. I’m just still not over the reply I got the other day. Righteous indignation is one of my sins I confess.

        Quote  Reply

    242. Chad Brick,

      Except you’re not being critical of the artistry, you mostly are just coming off like a huge douche. I’m letting you know that in the nicest way, it’s not meant to be an ad hominem attack because you’re probably not a douche; just that, maybe you really just don’t realize how douchey you sound?

      It’s gonna be okay. It’s just a tv show. We all like it. Let’s all have some tea.

        Quote  Reply

    243. Run times usually include credits and previously?
      My episode 4 includes opening and closing credits but no previously and it was 58:34

        Quote  Reply

    244. Icekhione,

      Yes, I agree. Never really compared the two,the other Starks being wargs isn’t at the front of my mind because of never having read George’s story, but now it does seem it could be true what I’ve read on other board that the two D’s really love the character and painting her in a more positive light (heard she whips her dragons but not in show (but even less fleshed out maybe so she’s more of a “God-like” enigma?)

        Quote  Reply

    245. Chad Brick,

      Chad, my friend, I am with you. Mihnea definitely deserves to be banned from commenting. No tolerance for differing opinions, nothing but personal attacks, disparaging people who like the books, now disparaging people who like Stannis, disparaging those who criticize the show. All around obnoxious behavior. Instead of being respectful to her/his fellow fans of this series, Mihnea prefers to constantly pick on people. It’s become impossible to discuss things in a friendly way on this site, unless it’s to say the show is perfect and every second produced by D&D is impeccable and infinitely better than GRRM. Unless you say that, Mihnea and others will come after you like pitchfork wielding villagers. It’s unbearable.

        Quote  Reply

    246. Markus Stark,

      That’s not true

      But there definitely are some broken records around here, and it gets old – like why do you come on a fan site just to complain. Shouldn’t you be doing something better with your time then discussing something that bothers you Hahahaha

        Quote  Reply

    247. Mihnea:
      Chad Brick,

      7th time Chad, 7th time..

      Say what you will, but not as a reply to me.

      Message boards do not come equipped with veto power over who may or may not respond to the content you post.

        Quote  Reply

    248. Dee,

      Leave him be. I had a polite discussion with him in this very thread.

      He just can’t handle when people call him out on his ”criticism”, none of them can.
      I didn’t speak with Chad, so I can’t see how I offended his poor soul.

      The only one I directly confronted was someone who was obviously ranting and throwing insults at the writers and simply spewing toxic rants.
      That isn’t welcomed here, as all of us know.

      I have plenty of discussion in contradiction with many people. Of course though he doesn’t see that. He is just angry that people don’t let him rant, because sure as hell I wasn’t the only to contradict his ”criticism”, like they do in other places.

        Quote  Reply

    249. Lyanna_Targaryen:
      Chad Brick,

      Except you’re not being critical of the artistry, you mostly are just coming off like a huge douche. I’m letting you know that in the nicest way, it’s not meant to be an ad hominem attack because you’re probably not a douche; just that, maybe you really just don’t realize how douchey you sound?

      It’s gonna be okay. It’s just a tv show. We all like it. Let’s all have some tea.

      I’ll take that as a concession of my point about a certain group of people around here.

        Quote  Reply

    250. Mihnea,

      How would they know she killed them ? Hmm, I don’t know, maybe because there are two dothraki guards with their throats slit lying in front of the temple and the doors were barred by someone ? The doors don’t fall down until the entirety of Vaes Dothrak is already there watching the temple burn. It’s very obviously intentional and planned.

      I’m aware that this is Dany’s story. If you think that means that nothing has to make sense, I don’t know what to say except thank God you’re not writing the show. Things have to be realistic and hold up to scrutiny. It makes no sense for all the dothraki to behave as though they share a brain. No individual thought, no disagreement, it’s just not logical. If you think things don’t need to make sense because it’s Dany’s story, you are dead wrong.
      My point about a Khal’s brother was that surely, among 100 thousand people, SOMEONE would have a problem with Dany taking over. They aren’t just all going to accept this. The fact that 100 thousand people behave like robots is absurd. Obviously, I know that this is Dany’s story.

        Quote  Reply

    251. Markus Stark,

      Ah…There it is.

      If I don’t share your opinions I’m a idiot and lack inteligence if I happen to have a different opinion.

      I will tell you from experience, you would feel right at home on westeros.org.

        Quote  Reply

    252. Of course the show it’s not perfect.And criticism should exist and it exists but some of the criticism it’s just ridiculous.I read every week comments of people rating episodes as 1’s or 2’s and saying how every single scene in this show it’s complete garbage.No,it’s not.It just isn’t.D&D do make mistakes,yes,but they’ve made plenty of good things in this show also.If episodes from GoT are complete garbage how should I rate episodes from really bad shows?At -20?Again,criticism should exist but from some people it’s just exagerated.

        Quote  Reply

    253. Sou,

      You completely missed the point. I said Dany would be viewed as a witch. Mihnea said Jesus wasn’t despite what he did (like walking on water and turning water into wine). And I replied that Jesus never walked on water. Hence the argument that “if Jesus can do it and not be viewed as a witch then so can Dany” is a silly argument. We are meant to believe Dany’s story, even if we know it’s fiction. It still has to make sense. I personally think the Dothraki would take issue with her and view her survival as witchcraft.

        Quote  Reply

    254. And for the love of god, stop attacking each other and calling each other names. You’re not new, you know better.

        Quote  Reply

    255. Dee,
      Mihnea,

      What’s up with you two? Talk about the books and show, every and any aspect of it you’d like, but the tone and criticism toward your fellow posters in this thread is unbecoming.

      Have a blessed day all 🙂

      Edit: sorry Sue, just saw your post after I clicked submit.

        Quote  Reply

    256. HelloThere:
      Mihnea,

      again… its magic, right?

      Why aren’t book readers complaining that all of Bran’s flashbacks aren’t filmed from the perspective of a tree???

      In the books, Bloodraven tells Bran that eventually he won’t need the trees to see. Since he’s been training for a year, it’s possible that he’s to the point that he doesn’t need the trees on the sight end. Eventually, he won’t even need the trees on his end, as Leaf tells us, and he’ll become part of the wars to come, we can assume.

      Mihnea:
      Kamali,

      As always..

      Oh, Mihnea. Do be fair! GF doesn’t spend all his time ranting against D&D. Sometimes he’s licking The Almighty’s ass.

      Sou: With all due respect, the novels are not exactly Crime and Punishment either. They are mostly average fantasy litterature that desperately needed the watering if they were to become a tv show. As for not keeping up with them anymore…. well, it is noone’s fault if Mr. Martin got tired of writing.

      I definitely disagree with you about ASoIaF being average fantasy literature. NPR’s top 100 sci-fi and fantasy novels list places the series at #5 among some really awesome choices, and Goodreads epic fantasy list has the series at #1. Certainly the series is not without its flaws, but I would give it a fairly fucking awesome grade.

      I do agree that the show has, in many ways, improved upon the series. I wouldn’t say “watered down” because that implies the material is less dense. Rather, I would say that the show has condensed – removing the excess water weight, getting rid of the fluff – the story into its very best and most essential parts. D&D are masters of adaptation, which is very seldomly done so well, and I love them for it. I do regret that this season isn’t able to glean the best dialogue from the books, though, because I do think that book dialogue added to the show’s quality.

        Quote  Reply

    257. kamali,

      She may become a villain later in the story. But for now, she is objectively not. A conpassionate conqueror that is primarily concerned with abolishing the institution of slavery cannot be reasonably described as a villain.

        Quote  Reply

    258. Mihnea,

      I wonder if the speed of the fire was already fixed by someone else who had infiltrated the DK before the Khal meeting and sprinkled some liquid that could help the fire spread. We see that the camera twice focuses on how quick the fire is spread over the steps made of stone. It cannot be accidental. As for why they didn’t try to kill her. It is obvious that they didn’t have the time. The main Khal who is closer to her is trying to move towards her but the first brazier stops him. Anyone who has seen how fast the fire can spread in a limited space wouldn’t argue about the Khals reaction. First of all they are all sitting very close to each other and behind them there is the wall. Then as I said their bewilderment, fear and paralysis is so total that they have no time to react against Dany. They only try to save themselves. I do not see any inconsistency in this scene and if the speed of the fire can be explained by Dany’s words in her earlier scene when she persuades Jorah and Daario to help her in her plan then we are done with Dany’s inferno…

        Quote  Reply

    259. Flayed Potatoes:
      Mihnea,

      See, I actually think she will rule. Otherwise, why did GURM waste my time with her taking leadership 101 classes in ADWD? lmao

      He is spending all of that time to show us why she wouldn’t be a good ruler, IMO, and to show us why Jon would: compare and contrast. George said in an interview that he thought these details were interesting: “what was Aragorn’s tax policy?” Prove to me that Aragorn was a good ruler.

      This idea that Dany isn’t a good ruler is highly contested, however, and many Dany fans will get mad at me for saying so. I’m happy to concede that I could be wrong. Hopefully we will know for certain soon. I’ve been pleasantly surprised to see the “Dany the conqueror but not the ruler” idea echoed by others more frequently this season, so at least I know I’m not alone in this impression from the books.

        Quote  Reply

    260. Ginevra,

      I’m a Dany fan, quite a big one and I agree with you.
      I think she is a fairly good ruler, but she compromised to much in Meereen and lost sight of herself and what her initial goal was.

      I don’t think it’s ”she is unable to rule” as much as it’s ”this isn’t her destiny, she isn’t meant to do this.”

      I think Dany will want to rule but there will simply not be enough time left, the battle with the WW would have already begun.

      The vision in S2, in Qarth, to me is the perfect example. She doesn’t touch the IT, she goes beyond the Wall..

        Quote  Reply

    261. Since some are discussing endgame:

      Queen of the Seven Kingdoms:
      Sansa

      The small council:
      Arya as Hand
      Sam as Grand Maester
      Jon Snow as Commander of the King’s Guard

      The North:
      Bran as Warden

      Ice and Fire:
      Dany and the dragons sacrifice themselves to defeat the White Walkers

        Quote  Reply

    262. Mihnea,

      Exactly! The Lazhareen helped Dany inside the hut and Jorah and Daario did the work with the guards. It is planned and organised well. We will see if there will be any reference to it in tonight’s episode. It is obvious that a large majority of ASOIAF fans who like all about Starks, the Hound and badassery dislike anything that has to do with empowered women like Dany and Brienne even Elaria. Women’s power should be either intelligence with a lot of pussy in it (Margery) or some kind of title given to them by an alpha male patriarch (Ed Stark and in extension Sansa or Yara). Anything else is acceptable under certain conditions. Look only at the comments made in the thread “Sophie Turner suggest Sansa try something new-like women”.

        Quote  Reply

    263. Dee,

      I love the show. It’s my favorite TV show of all time. Does that mean I’m not allowed to have criticisms ?
      I don’t come on here to complain. That’s an asinine thing to say. I come on here, just like everyone else, to discuss the show and share my opinion. Sometimes the episodes are flawless. Sometimes I have criticisms. If you don’t like that, that’s your problem not mine. I won’t be bullied into shutting up because the people of this community are incapable of handling disagreement.

      If I spend time discussing the things that bother me it’s precisely because I love the show and I want it to be as good as it can be. This idea that anyone who criticizes the show must be a hater and has no right to be on a fan site is absurd and pretty immature.

        Quote  Reply

    264. Dee
      No, but I notice there is a certain level of negativity in thread among some and I can see how it might come across as bullying, especially to the more infrequent contributors. Just be your normally positive, lighthearted self and don’t get too concerned with a need to back up anyone else, and try to just ignore the posts that have criticisms that’s going to put a damper on your enjoyment of GOT 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    265. Mihnea,

      I didn’t call you an idiot, nor did I say you lack intelligence. I would never say that, nor do I think it. You just made that up. Not a very honest tactic.

      You’re the one who insults those who disagree with you. And now you’ve added lying into the mix. Good job.

      And stop bringing up this ridiculous “westeros.org” argument anytime someone has a criticism of the show. It’s childish. For the millionth time, I love the show. Having a few quibbles doesn’t mean I’m a hater. Grow up.

        Quote  Reply

    266. Mihnea,

      Wait. Is there a debate about this? I thought it was clear to everyone that based on the preceding scenes, the Lhazareen woman was the one that helped Dany inside the hut (by making it very flammable). I mean, do they really have to spell everything out in bold letters?

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    267. Ginevra: He is spending all of that time to show us why she wouldn’t be a good ruler, IMO, and to show us why Jon would: compare and contrast. George said in an interview that he thought these details were interesting: “what was Aragorn’s tax policy?” Prove to me that Aragorn was a good ruler.

      I disagree strongly! I think that GRRM has shown why Daeny will ultimately be a very good executive. First and foremost: Daeny actually gives a damn. She would be (like Jon or, I suspect Renley) someone who in interested in making life as comfortable as possible for as many people as possible. Daeny is not someone (like, say, Cersei) someone who is interested in making the world as comfortable as possible for herself at the expense of anyone and everyone else. And Daeny is not someone (like, say, Stannis) who is such an absolutist in her beliefs that she will not question things that she had taken for granted or be unwilling to compromise.

      Ultimately, I think that the story is going to climax based on Jon’s and Daeny’s willingness and ability to see “greater good” beyond the needs/wants of themselves or even of only their own peoples. We have taken questions such as “Why are the White Walkers back?” and “Why does R’hllor hate everything so much?” and treated them as independent points of trivia. I am betting that these instead will provide souped-up (even, if you will, apotheosized!) analogs of “Why aren’t we killing all of the Wildlings like we are supposed to do?” or “Slavery is an ancient and honorable institution” – only perhaps with humanity unknowingly on the “Tory” side of the equation – and that is when what Jon did at the Wall and what Daeny did in Meereen are basically going to be both foreshadowings and gun hangings for the conclusion.

      And as for who rules the Iron Throne afterwards: my bet is that will be denouement, and the bittersweet aspect is that they will have to live the rest of their lives with the compromise a la Ned Stark. Again, I think that something like The Graveyard Book might be a good model for the “bittersweet” that we are going to get here.

      EDIT: Oh, I do strongly agree about what GRRM’s point is regarding Aragorn. But that is the big difference between GRRM’s ideal leader and Tolkien’s ideal ruler: GRRM’s ideal leaders go through growing pains and learn how to do it, they are not born with the innate wisdom; Tolkien’s ideal ruler knows exactly what to do because great to the gazillionth grandfather did.

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    268. ArgonathofBraavos: I thought it was clear to everyone that based on the preceding scenes, the Lhazareen woman was the one that helped Dany inside the hut (by making it very flammable).

      She was the one with access. And, yeah, it would have been just a bit of a tipoff if we had seen her walking around with cans of petrol or something!

      😀

      Presumably Jorah & Daario’s job was to kill the guards and lock the Little Hitlers into the temple. Personally, I liked that symmetry with history: this time, the thugs get locked inside the temple and torched by the ones that they oppress!

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    269. Ashara D: She does not whip her dragons in the books.

      Insofar as I remember, the closest that she comes is when Drogon attacks the games. And there, Daeny does it to: 1) get Drogon’s attention (I think that she just cracks it rather than whipping him); and, 2) prevent Drogon from getting himself killed.

      Daeny also uses the whip as a riding crop in the air: that is when she realizes that riding a dragon is opposite of riding a horse because whacking a horse on the right gets it to “flee” to the left whereas whacking a dragon on the right gets it to “attack” to the right.

      However, Daeny never beats her dragons: if anything, then she is the mother who spoiled the child by sparing the rod!

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    270. Flayed Potatoes: We could have easily had a small scene of Dany bonding with more widows in that temple.

      That would have just diluted the story and the plot. The Dothraki women would not have cooperated with Daeny. What the plot needed was a woman who also was an outsider, and who also was in this whole situation very much against her will.

      In general, cinema should avoid prolonged dialog whenever possible: show, do not tell, is the rule for communicating story, plot and even character development in this medium. And it definitely has to avoid dialog that does not directly feed story, plot or character development. They gave us all we needed to figure out what was happening. Moreover, it was yet another case of people being their own undoing: the Dothraki habit of kidnapping women and then forcing their morality system on them ultimately gets used to destroy them.

      And, let’s face it: this could not happen to a more deserving people! 😀

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    271. I usually set up email notifications for the threads as I can’t be on the site all the time. This post has over 400 responses. Of those, a third are by the same 2 or 3 people sniping at/with other people. CAN YOU PUT A FUCKING LID ON IT OR LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF POSTS ONE MAKES????? It is getting really tiresome and hard to read!

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    272. Mr Fixit,

      Well, as someone said in a movie of all things (Robert Redford in A Walk In The Woods): “Books are TV for intelligent people.”

      I’m so sick of put-downs from show-only watchers to book readers that I had to put a tiny bit of the rage I feel into my little comment.

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    273. Flayed Potatoes,
      I do hope that some of the loose ends that have been left dangling in the show will be picked up later on. Because when producers talk about time constraints and certain things needing to be cut out when they make an adaptation of a book, then why introduce some things (like the Iron Bank) if that particular thing isn’t going to be important later on? They can hardly blame the hardcore fans for that. It’s their own fault for introducing it in the first place!

      My particular interest is in military tactics and the management of large armies. Another fascinating point (in the books, not the show) is the plague currently afflicting Essos, the one that is called ‘The Pale Mare’. I’m sad that it isn’t being used in the TV series because for me it’s far more interesting than the stripped-down Meereen that we are seeing (and the loss of Barristan Selmy).

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    274. Pigeon,

      How about people discuss whatever they want to discuss ? You don’t have to read everything (though I certainly understand the impulse). You also don’t need to set up email notifications. You can’t blame people if the conversation goes on for a long time.
      I understand it gets tiresome but nonetheless, people are free to discuss things back and forth as much as they desire.

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    275. jennyofoldstones: Well, as someone said in a movie of all things (Robert Redford in A Walk In The Woods): “Books are TV for intelligent people.”

      Yes, but… when the Brysons of the world make comments like this, they are not including fantasy books any more than they are including erotica or cowboy novels!

      Moreover, the line (or one like it) is from the book on which the movie was adapted: and Bryon’s book of the sort that fantasy fans dismiss as “snobbish.” In a recent thread here where one of the GoT producers used an analogy based on Anna Karenina, we had posters asking what Anna Kareninan was and/or stating that Anna Karenina was the sort of book that people only read to make themselves look smart. So, this view cuts both ways.

      But the other thing to consider is when the book was written: the mid-late 1990’s. (Or at least I seem to recall that was when I read it; I read it on a flight to LA with time to spare, and I was flying to LA a lot back then.) And, let’s face it: TV has changed dramatically since then. TV has gotten a LOT “smarter.” The days of insipid sitcom after insipid sitcom are gone. They have been replaced by two extremes: reality TV (which managed to get even dumber than the sitcoms), and character dramas. (Even the extant sitcoms now are just humorous character dramas!) And one major development with the character dramas are series that tell season-long stories. Thrones is just one of many shows of this type that we’ve seen in the last decade and a half, and they have been wildly successful for cable TV companies.

      And who is making these TV shows successful? Youngish-to-middle-aged professionals of the sort that are more prone to reading books that vie for Booker awards than books that vie for Hugo awards! Indeed, that is something that is most impressive about Thrones success: it is succeeding with a demographic that is prone to not give “epic fantasy” a chance because epic fantasy is supposed to be for teenage boys who are afraid of girls.

      On that topic, I seem to recall liking A Walk in the Woods. It’s a sardonically funny story about the perils of trying to take shortcuts. But what is odd is that it has these almost Hugoesque or Tolstoyesque “time outs” in which we get semi-philosphical, semi-scientific discussions of ecology, human behavior, etc. That was common 150 years ago, but less so today. (This is assuming that I am remembering it correctly 20 years later…..)

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    276. Markus Stark,

      It’s not the discussion or conversation, it’s the ‘go away’ ‘ no you go away! ‘fine’ ‘fine!’ snarking that has nothing to do with anything other than who is more ‘right’ or feels superior about something. Makes it hard to sift through to the good points of discussion when the same people are antagonizing each other in every second post! 🙂

      At any rate, now I’m not on topic either, so I’ll go watch some parody videos and carry on. 😉

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    277. Wimsey,

      Agreed. I’ve always loved epic fantasies in the fantasy genre in general but Game of Thrones appeals to a very wide audience in large part I think because of the real world issues that it covers. It also isn’t overly magical or fantastic. It is very much rooted in reality and history.

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