A Song of Ice and Fire Theory Poll Results: Part 1!

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Hello! Welcome back to the 2015 A Song of Ice and Fire 5-Site Theory Poll! You’ve been waiting for this moment. I’ve gotten your PMs, comment replies asking when the results will come out, and now’s the moment you all (or least a few of you) have been waiting for: results to the 2015 ASOIAF Theory Poll!

Theories contain information from the books, so Unsullied beware!

Caveat

First, a caveat. Originally, I had hoped to create a massive imgur slide show showing all results. However, I realized that this would be something to the tune of 200+ images for Part 1 alone. After spending the past week trying to create images for each and every fan question, I had only progressed halfway through Part 1 of the poll. So, I decided on a different course.

In lieu of overwhelming everyone with images, I decided to publish the analytics for each site and then create images for 5 theories that show some of the more popular (or unpopular) theories or theories that display greater variance among the 5 fan-communities.

Overall Data

I know, you want the results before you piss yourself, but I am a data nerd. So, I feel the need to go over some of the data and talk a minute about value and shortfalls of these polls.

Overall, I had 9,232 responses to Part 1 of the poll split across 5 fan communities to the tune of:

  • Reddit: 5036 responses
  • Westeros.org: 192 responses
  • Tower of the Hand: 401 responses
  • Watchers on the Wall: 3424 responses
  • ASOIAF Facebook: 240 responses

Thank you all so much for voting! I was touched by all the people who cared enough to engage in this elaborate multi-part series. (Yeah, I know it was a long process.)

That said, the sample sizes for each represented only a small fraction of the userbase of each community. As an online poll, it needs to be emphasized that this is not a scientific poll. It captures a snapshot of what (>1%-4%, depending on the fan base) of you all thought about the theories presented. Still… if I were to wager a guess, I’d venture that the results below broadly represent how passionate fans of ASOIAF feel about these theories across fan communities based in part on comparing 2015’s results to 2014’s results (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3).

Now that I’ve gotten my data nerdery out of the way, I hope you haven’t pissed yourself. Let’s talk results!

Google Forms

Here’s where you can find each and every result to identity and conspiracy theories that you all (and your compatriots in the other 4 fandoms) voted on!

Sample Results

Here’s some of the responses I found fascinating:

  1. Jon Snow’s Parentage

Here, we start with some pretty consistent congruence on the part of these 5 fan communities. Over 90% of all respondents believe that Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark are Jon Snow’s parents. Now… mea culpa, when I drew up the polls, I did not include the option for Eddard Stark + Ashara Dayne as Jon’s parents. My bad. I’ll fix for next year! Here’s the results by fan community:

  • Reddit
    • Eddard Stark and Wylla: 31 (0.6%)
    • Eddard Stark and a random peasant girl: 13 (0.3%)
    • Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark: 4707 (95.1%)
    • Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne: 128 (2.6%)
    • Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark: 14 (0.3%)
    • Eddard Sark and the Fisherman’s Daughter: 11 (0.2%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 47 (0.9%)
  • org
    • Eddard Stark and Wylla: 4 (2.1%)
    • Eddard Stark and a random peasant girl: 1 (0.5%)
    • Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark: 165 (86.4%)
    • Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne: 9 (4.7%)
    • Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark: 7 (3.7%)
    • Eddard Sark and the Fisherman’s Daughter: 0 (0%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 5 (2.6%)
  • Tower of the Hand
    • Eddard Stark and Wylla: 8 (2%)
    • Eddard Stark and a random peasant girl: 2 (0.5%)
    • Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark: 370 (93%)
    • Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne: 6 (1.5%)
    • Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark: 4 (1%)
    • Eddard Sark and the Fisherman’s Daughter: 4 (1%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 4 (1%)
  • Watchers on the Wall
    • Eddard Stark and Wylla: 14 (0.4%)
    • Eddard Stark and a random peasant girl: 3 (0.1%)
    • Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark: 3221 (95.6%)
    • Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne: 80 (2.4%)
    • Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark: 22 (0.7%)
    • Eddard Sark and the Fisherman’s Daughter: 12 (0.4%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 18 (0.5%)
  • ASOIAF Facebook
    • Eddard Stark and Wylla: 0 (0%)
    • Eddard Stark and a random peasant girl: 0 (0.%)
    • Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark: 227 (95.8%)
    • Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne: 6 (2.5%)
    • Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark: 3 (1.3%)
    • Eddard Sark and the Fisherman’s Daughter: 0 (0%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 18 (0.5%)
  1. Aerys II Targaryen + Joanna Lannister = Tyrion

Roughly 2/3 of all respondents think that Tyrion is *not** the son of Aerys II. However, this question shows some moderate variance among fan communities.*

  1. Who is Azor Ahai Reborn?

The identity of Azor Ahai brought out a lot of answers. Jon Snow won a plurality or outright majority of the votes in each community, but many different answers were given. Regardless, there’s a degree of variance among communities for this answer with some interesting results!

  • Reddit
    • Stannis Baratheon: 50 (1%)
    • Jon Snow: 2464 (49.8%)
    • Daenerys Targaryen: 310 (6.3%)
    • Victarion Greyjoy: 9 (0.2%)
    • Aegon VI Targaryen: 5 (0.1%)
    • Rhaegar Targaryen: 31 (0.6%)
    • Jaime Lannister: 69 (1.4%)
    • Davos Seaworth: 20 (0.4%)
    • Jorah Mormont: 36 (0.7%)
    • Many different characters will be Azor Ahai Reborn or reflect Azor Ahai’s legendary characteristics: 1162 (23.5%)
    • There is no Azor Ahai Reborn: 572 (11.6%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 160 (11.6%)
    • Other: 58 (1.2%)
  • Westeros.org
    • Stannis Baratheon: 2 (1.1%)
    • Jon Snow: 74 (38.9%)
    • Daenerys Targaryen: 28 (14.7%)
    • Victarion Greyjoy: 0 (0%)
    • Aegon VI Targaryen: 1 (0.5%)
    • Rhaegar Targaryen: 2 (1.1%)
    • Jaime Lannister: 4 (2.1%)
    • Davos Seaworth: 1 (0.5%)
    • Jorah Mormont: 0 (0%)
    • Many different characters will be Azor Ahai Reborn or reflect Azor Ahai’s legendary characteristics: 39 (20.5%)
    • There is no Azor Ahai Reborn: 21 (11.1%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 15 (7.9%)
    • Other: 3 (1.6%)
  • Tower of the Hand
    • Stannis Baratheon: 1 (0.3%)
    • Jon Snow: 211 (53.3%)
    • Daenerys Targaryen: 69 (17.4%)
    • Victarion Greyjoy: 1 (0.3%)
    • Aegon VI Targaryen: 1 (0.5%)
    • Rhaegar Targaryen: 0 (0%)
    • Jaime Lannister: 2 (0.5%)
    • Davos Seaworth: 2 (0.5%)
    • Jorah Mormont: 1 (0.3%)
    • Many different characters will be Azor Ahai Reborn or reflect Azor Ahai’s legendary characteristics: 72 (27%)
    • There is no Azor Ahai Reborn: 27 (6.8%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 7 (1.8%)
    • Other: 2 (0.5%)
  • Watchers on the Wall
    • Stannis Baratheon: 19 (0.6%)
    • Jon Snow: 1992 (59.3%)
    • Daenerys Targaryen: 330 (9.8%)
    • Victarion Greyjoy: 4 (0.1%)
    • Aegon VI Targaryen: 4 (0.1%)
    • Rhaegar Targaryen: 11 (0.3%)
    • Jaime Lannister: 38 (1.1%)
    • Davos Seaworth: 10 (0.3%)
    • Jorah Mormont: 23 (0.7%)
    • Many different characters will be Azor Ahai Reborn or reflect Azor Ahai’s legendary characteristics: 217 (6.5%)
    • There is no Azor Ahai Reborn:106 (3.2%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 106 (3.2%)
    • Other: 36 (1.1%)
  • ASOIAF Facebook
    • Stannis Baratheon: 0 (0%)
    • Jon Snow: 114 (48.1%)
    • Daenerys Targaryen: 30 (12.7%)
    • Victarion Greyjoy: 1 (0.4%)
    • Aegon VI Targaryen: 2 (0.8%)
    • Rhaegar Targaryen: 2 (0.8%)
    • Jaime Lannister: 4 (1.7%)
    • Davos Seaworth: 0 (0%)
    • Jorah Mormont: 2 (0.8%)
    • Many different characters will be Azor Ahai Reborn or reflect Azor Ahai’s legendary characteristics: 49 (20.7%)
    • There is no Azor Ahai Reborn:17 (7.2%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 12 (5.1%)
    • Other: 4 (1.7%)
  1. The Grand Northern Conspiracy

I selected the GNC, because of the conflict between “Yes” responses and “Partially” responses and how that broke down by community. It’s unique to see a question that is so polarizing and close (though we’ll have cause to visit one of these questions next week which is even more divided)

  • Reddit
    • Yes: 2369 (48.2%)
    • Partially: 1876 (38.2%)
    • No: 447 (9.1%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 222 (4.5%)
  • Westeros.org
    • Yes: 68 (35.6%)
    • Partially: 94 (49.2%)
    • No: 21 (11%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 8 (4.2%)
  • Tower of the Hand
    • Yes: 150 (37.9%)
    • Partially: 163 (41.2%)
    • No: 68 (17.2%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 15 (3.8%)
  • Watchers on the Wall
    • Yes: 1490 (44.8%)
    • Partially: 1302 (39.2%)
    • No: 358 (10.8%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 175 (5.3%)
  • ASOIAF Facebook
    • Yes: 7 (33.5%)
    • Partially: 110 (47.2%)
    • No: 25 (10.7%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 20 (8.6%)
  1. Who poisoned the locusts in Meereen?

One of the more interesting results was that people are generally unsure (or don’t care) about the locust poisoner from ADWD, Daenerys IX. Still… fans convinced of one candidate or another showed some variance.

  • Reddit
    • Hizdahr zo Loraq: 947 (19.3%)
    • Skahaz mo Kandaq: 1413 (28.8%)
    • Galazza Galare: 271 (5.5%)
    • The Tattered Prince (But he was trying to poison Hizdahr, not Daenerys): 217 (4.4%)
    • Missandei: 52 (1.1%)
    • House Pahl: 229 (4.7%)
    • Gerris Drinkwater: 12 (0.2%)
    • Daario Naharis: 231 (4.7%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 1456: (29.6%)
    • Other: 83 (1.7%)
  • Westeros.org
    • Hizdahr zo Loraq: 42 (22.2%)
    • Skahaz mo Kandaq: 51 (27%)
    • Galazza Galare: 13 (6.9%)
    • The Tattered Prince (But he was trying to poison Hizdahr, not Daenerys): 7 (3.7%)
    • Missandei: 4 (2.1%)
    • House Pahl: 8 (4.2%)
    • Gerris Drinkwater: 4 (2.1%)
    • Daario Naharis: 6 (3.2%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 52: (27.5%)
    • Other: 2 (1.1%)
  • Tower of the Hand
    • Hizdahr zo Loraq: 116 (29.3%)
    • Skahaz mo Kandaq: 123 (31.1%)
    • Galazza Galare: 34 (8.6%)
    • The Tattered Prince (But he was trying to poison Hizdahr, not Daenerys): 7 (3.7%)
    • Missandei: 5 (1.3%)
    • House Pahl: 5 (1.3%)
    • Gerris Drinkwater: 1 (0.3%)
    • Daario Naharis: 15 (3.8%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 78: (19.7%)
    • Other: 2 (0.5%)
  • Watchers on the Wall
    • Hizdahr zo Loraq: 864 (26.2%)
    • Skahaz mo Kandaq: 558 (16.9%)
    • Galazza Galare: 280 (8.5%)
    • The Tattered Prince (But he was trying to poison Hizdahr, not Daenerys): 166 (5%)
    • Missandei: 44 (1.3%)
    • House Pahl: 69 (2.1%)
    • Gerris Drinkwater: 7 (0.2%)
    • Daario Naharis: 271 (8.2%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 1018 (30.9%)
    • Other: 21 (0.6%)
  • ASOIAF Facebook
    • Hizdahr zo Loraq: 61 (26.2%)
    • Skahaz mo Kandaq: 48 (20.6%)
    • Galazza Galare: 13 (5.6%)
    • The Tattered Prince (But he was trying to poison Hizdahr, not Daenerys): 12 (5.2%)
    • Missandei: 4 (1.7%)
    • House Pahl: 8 (3.4%)
    • Gerris Drinkwater: 1 (0.4%)
    • Daario Naharis: 12 (5.2%)
    • Don’t Know/No Opinion: 72 (30.9%)
    • Other: 2 (0.9%)

Other Responses, AKA Shits and Giggles

Keeping on with the strong tradition from 2014, some of the “other” answers brought me some laughs, and I hope they provide the same for you. Here’s some of the “other” responses I received:

Who is Azor Ahai Reborn?

  • Reddit: Hot Pie, Donald Trump, JOHN CENA, Littlefinger, Moon Boy, Ramsay Bolton, Ser Pounce, Timmet son of Timmet
  • Watchers on the Wall: Benjen, Ice Maul
  • Facebook: Brienne (Lots of write-ins for this one), Gendry smith and kings bastard

Who poisoned the locusts?

  • Reddit: Benjen Stark, Don’t care. Fuck Meereen, Donald J. Trump, Drogon, Euron Greyjoy, Harzoo, Harzoo?, Quentyn Martell, Reznak mo Reznak, shaykayazazaz lo podoroqaqaq, Syrio, Voltron, Tywin prior to his death. Long con in action, Who cares?
  • Watchers on the Wall: Barristan Selmy, Brown Ben Plumm, Hodor, probably fucking moon boy for all I know, Poizdar do Loqust
  • ASOIAF Facebook: i don’t know the fucking meereen names which one was the shavepate is that skahaz my guess is the shavepate he’s sketchy af

 

Thank you again for participating in the poll. It was a lot of fun to see all the results and to share them with you. And please feel free to dig through the analytics and come up with more analysis on your own. Next week, I’ll bring part 2 (Plot points, ASOIAF History and the future of the story theories) to you all. Thanks for your patience, and please let me know ways that I can improve for next year! Cheers!

BryndenBFish is the creator of the Wars and Politics of Ice and Fire Blog a blog and podcast dedicated to political and military analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire. He can be found at twitter as @BryndenBFish

186 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Turncloak: I just really hope GRRM doesn’t make Tyrion a secret Targaryen. I think that would be an awful idea.

      This strikes me as a classic case of readers imagining things that the author never intended them to do. However, the same could be said for most of the conjectures on this list!

        Quote  Reply

    2. Turncloak,

      Agreed, it would cheapen the Twyin/Tyrion relationship so much. And it would mean GOT would follow every other fantasy story ever in that all the main characters MUST be some kind of magical prophecy hero bollocks thing

        Quote  Reply

    3. https://www.facebook.com/BestofGameofThrones/photos/pb.652970264758759.-2207520000.1446159722./904580936264356/?type=3&theater

      Tyrion is a Targaryen bastard, but it’s never gonna revealed specifically. Because there is no ”Howland Reed character” for Tyrion.

      How abut this, guys?

      And something from the books:

      Tyrion: -What do you see in the flames?
      Moqorro: -Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And YOU. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.

      Moqorro sees only dragons and he sees Tyrion as well. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    4. It’s funny but I didn’t notice the omission of the possibility of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne being the parents until I looked at the poll results, so I’m glad that’s been noticed and will be sorted for the next poll.

        Quote  Reply

    5. In regards to Jon Snow’s parentage.. I’d be interested to hear from some folks who voted for Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne. Seems the theory has some (albeit small) legs. I’ve never heard it and would like to know some of the reasoning behind it.

        Quote  Reply

    6. Regarding the locusts, I agree that Meereenese Blot nailed the case against the Shavepate (all of his essays are fantastic, btw).

      The answers for the Grand Northern Conspiracy Theory question were poorly written. The theory has like 100 different points and in order to vote “yes”, you’d have to agree with all of them so long as there’s a “partially” option. I would have to vote “partially”, as the theory makes a lot of observations that I expect to be accurate, but combining all those observations into one massive answer to everything seems highly unlikely.

      As for Tyrion Targaryen, I think that there’s some textual support for the idea, but they could be red herrings. It does seem like a lot of it’s been dropped in the show’s adaptation, so that probably indicates that it’s not true.

        Quote  Reply

    7. I’m happy to see so many “Partially” answers to the Grand Northern Conspiracy question. Some fans with too much time in their hands and paranoia in their minds imagine incredibly complex and intricate conspiracies that wouldn’t ever hold water if they were to be carried out in the real world. Sadly, some people have these paranoid thoughts about real world events, not just fiction. The Grand Northern Conspiracy is one of these “theories”. As we see in ADWD, there are few anti-Bolton Northern Lords, and they’re conspiring to bring the flayers down… but that would be more of a set of “Northern Conspiracies” instead of a single “Grand Northern Conspiracy”.

      It’s also amusing to see how little people care about who poisoned the locusts. It’s not like there are too many interesting alternatives —it’s either Hizdahr or the Shavepate, the one who points the finger at Hizdahr and convinces Barristan to arrest him. If anyone else is the culprit… who cares?

      As for Jon’s parentage, I would get why a few people would believe something other than R+L=J… until season five came along and hinted at this repeatedly, especially in “Sons of the Harpy”, and gave no hints at any other alternative.

        Quote  Reply

    8. It was very entertaining to participate, thank you! But are you sure that the Azor Ahai reborn percentages are correct for us (I mean Watchers)? I am no math genious, but it seems to me they don’t add up to 100%.

        Quote  Reply

    9. Luka Nieto,

      I still find it odd that the Dayneites have disappeared! However, their favored response was not even an option.

      I agree with you about the Northern Conspiracy: this is another case of readers using their imaginations and not paying attention to Martin’s. Of course, there are simple literary problems with it, too: it cannot include any of the primary characters, so it would become just an arbitrary turn of events. Whatever happens in the North will be driven by major characters: they might take advantage of anti-Bolton sentiment, but they will nit be swept up by it. Moreover, the large numbers of Wildlings now south of the Wall might make them put their personal feuds aside until that greater threat is handled.

      I think that a lot of it is going to come down to the outcome of the Battle of Ice. We know one of the outcomes of that, but there were slightly different dynamics in the book:

      in particular, we do not know what is going to happen to the Northerners on Stannis’ side: will they petish with him, or will they live to fight another day? Does Manderly’s host petish in the fight, or do they survive in tact while the Freys die?

        Quote  Reply

    10. I could see Jaime and Cersei being Targs ( although I think that has been disproved now) but not Tyrion. It wouldn’t add anything to his character or the story and be a cheap attention grabbing tool.
      This poll reminded me just how little I gave a shit about what was happening in Mereen! All those similar sounding names and characters with no distinctiveness.

        Quote  Reply

    11. Rickard Greyjoy,

      It might be an attempt to salvage the Ned+Ashara conjecture. In the books, we learn that Neds older brother was quite the ladies man, and we learn that one of the Stark brothers “dishonored” Ashara. (Medieval attitudes about sex are very 1950’s.).

      At any rate, 15 years ago it seemed like the Ashara-as-the-Mother proponents were as numerous as the Lyanna-as-the-Mother proponents. That does not seem to be the caee anymore, but this might be some of the flotsam and jetsam of the Dayneites.

        Quote  Reply

    12. TheTouchofFrost,

      They don’t fit in the ”three head of the dragon” prophecy.

      A Song(Tyrion) of Ice(Jon) and Fire(Daenerys)
      Tyrion will brings them together. He meet with Jon at the beginning and almost became friends, and now he with Dany totally understand each other too.
      The three Targaryen with three dragon…the dragon must have three heads.

        Quote  Reply

    13. I realize that one of the goals of this poll was to see what differences there were between different segments of fandom. But the other goal was to see what fandom overall tends to think of these theories. As such, will you be releasing the combined overall results of the poll? I’d be more interested to see them! Thanks!

        Quote  Reply

    14. Oh, my goodness, this is awesome! I love how much smarter we (WotW) are than everyone else. We are spot on for the two most important theories: R+L = J and Azor Ahai.

      I’m a bit dismayed, however, that nearly 40% of us are blind enough to not see how Tyrion is Tywin Lannister’s son, through and through. Tyrion’s masterful cunning, his political savvy, and his military genius all scream that he is the truest heir Tywin could ever have.

        Quote  Reply

    15. bulzz,

      Why would Tyrion be

      the song? I see your point for ice and fire, but what characteristics does Tyrion have that make him a “song”?? I think the song is a story, and it is a story about ice and fire. Jon is a Targ and a Stark und thus ice and fire combined. His story is the song, i believe, not Tyrion.

        Quote  Reply

    16. TheTouchofFrost: It wouldn’t add anything to his character or the story and be a cheap attention grabbing tool.

      The other problem is that Martin has not provided any indications that this might be the case in the books. This stands in marked contrast to R+L=J. We know that Rhaegar could have fathered a child on Lyanna. We know that Ned is the sort of person who would be very torn about having to choose between the dishonor of lying (or at least dissembling) about a family dishonor or the dishonor of letting a child almost certainly be killed because of who his parents are. And, of course, this is almost certainly going to feed story in the future: at some point, Jon almost certainly is going to reach another choice between two dishonorable acts, and knowing what Ned Stark did to save Jon will probably inform Jon greatly about what the least-wrong thing is to do.

      For Tyrion, you are absolutely right: it would be a pointless plot-twist that does note even really twist a plot. We’ve been given no indication in the SoI&F books that Aerys and Tyrion’s mother were sexually involved: Selmy noting that Aerys made inappropriate comments during Tywin’s wedding is a long, long way from stating that they had an affair. Moreover, this has had no bearing on how Tyrion has grown as a person: his maltreatment from his father came not from Tywin suspecting that he had been cuckholded, but from the fact that Tyrion was a dwarf and that Tyrion’s mother died giving birth to him.

      And, of course, if you are looking for a non-Tywin father for Tyrion, then look to a Baratheon or someone like that: Tyrion’s non-Lannister features are from a dark-featured person, not a Targaryen.

        Quote  Reply

    17. bulzz: Moqorro sees only dragons and he sees Tyrion as well.

      That vision suggests that Tyrion is going to be caught between Dragons, not that he is one of them.

        Quote  Reply

    18. Donna,

      Hopefully, by the time the next poll is made Winds of Winter will be out and we won’t have to guess who Jon Snow’s parents were.

      Turncloak,

      This.
      http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/133033045335/why-tyrion-targaryen-is-neither-logical-nor

      Luka Nieto:
      As for Jon’s parentage, I would get why a few people would believe something other than R+L=J… until season five came along and hinted at this repeatedly, especially in “Sons of the Harpy”, and gave no hints at any other alternative.

      They gave the alternative of Ned being his father in Season 1. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    19. Wimsey,

      TheTouchofFrost:
      This poll reminded me just how little I gave a shit about what was happening in Mereen! All those similar sounding names and characters with no distinctiveness.

      Exactly the same happened to me! I read the books and I had forgotten about the poisoning… I guess by that time I was so annoyed by Daenerys’ attitude that I tip toed around these chapters. Someday I will re-read the books and pay more attention to these parts!

        Quote  Reply

    20. GhostCR,

      Tyrion will almost certainly be an important middleman: to further what you note, he will be the one person of authority than knows both Jon and Daeny personally. Tyrion is also smart and informed enough to realize that R+J=L makes sense once he learns of it: and that might be an important, too.

        Quote  Reply

    21. Why would anyone still see Tywin as important at all? Please, can we not just let the asshole go? In time everyone will find out who is who and what is what. (I hope.) Live long and prosper, George!

        Quote  Reply

    22. I strongly dislike the Tyrion Targaryen theory, for the reason commonly given that it undermines the whole dynamic with Tywin.

      However, I would not say there’s no textual support for it at all — after the Aerys/Joanna backstory in ADWD started to generate this theory in 2011, some have used the dragon imagery in some of Tyrion’s chapters in earlier novels to bolster it. This can, of course, also just support the proposition that he’s a dragonrider. But after the release of The World of Ice and Fire, I think it’s unfair to say that people advancing this theory are outright fabulists, because TWOIAF’s backstory on the reign of Aerys II and his interactions with Joanna can really only have been written with one of two motives:

      1) Tyrion actually is Aerys’ bastard.
      2) GRRM is deliberately teasing that idea, even if it isn’t true.

        Quote  Reply

    23. It is gratifying to see the number of folks who responded from WotW. To me, it shows the participatory environment created here.

      As one of your reformed Daynites, Wimsey, what purpose do you think the mystery surrounding the Daynes (no sigil sighting, no house words, very little house history provided) is serving in the story? What will be their involvement in the overarching story? GRRM has said that we will learn more about them eventually; what is the connection? I find this to be a bigger mystery than R+L=J or Azor Ahai. House Dayne, all the way! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    24. Jon Azor Ahai? Don’t know about this, but all the evidence is pointing out to Daeny and not Jon.

      As for Jon’s parentage. Part of me hopes for Ned to be his biological father, but he will be his father no matter what. So yeah, most likely Rhaegar. Since Ned was never into incest and Rhaegar hardly had anything with Ashara. Lyanna makes the sense, but still I’m wondering who is going to be our Lyanna in the show and Rhaegar. Casting is one of the strongest departments of GOT.

        Quote  Reply

    25. Ginevra,

      Exactly! When Tywin told Tyrion he’s not his son, that wasn’t meant to be taken literally. I don’t get why people even want A + J = T to be true. It not only wouldn’t add anything to the story, it would actually detract from it.

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    26. bulzz,

      Prophecy could mean anything. Could just mean the dragons, could mean three people ( doesn’t state they have to be Targs), could mean something else. Jon, Dany and Tyrion riding the three dragons would be the corniest thing they could possibly do. From what we know of George’s writing he doesn’t really go for such things. Even if we do apply the ‘it has to be a Targ rule’ YG is a much liklier candidate.

      Wimsey,

      I agree. I think that it added to the tension and hatred between Aerys and Tywin but there is no need for Tyrion to be a by-product of it as it serves no purpose for him or the story going forward. The twins I think could be a lot more interesting as it could be a subtle way of having another dance of dragons (Cersei vs Dany…Targ queen vs. Targ queen), would add an interesting dimension to Jaime killing his own father ( which would nod to Tyrion killing Tywin) and would also flip the incest thing on it’s back as it seems to have been tolerated between Targaryens but not Lannisters! I think that shiop has sailed now though. Not a big loss overall to the story but I would have found the layers interesting.
      Plus the quote by Genna Lannister is perhaps GRRM confirming that Tyrion is Tywin’s “Jaime kissed her cheek. “He left a son”. “Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth.” That was a queer remark. “Why should you fear?” “Jaime,” she said, tugging on his ear, “sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak…but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years.”

      GhostCR,

      I read them but it wasn’t really going in. All the characters and their names sounded the same and nothing really interesting was happening. The locust poisoning woke me up a bit and if the show can better deliver what had potential as a storyline then ooray but Dany just doesn’t inspire much interest in me now ( which is a shame as she was one of the most interesting in the first book/season). It’s annoying because she’s a main character so gonna have to bear with her until the end! For the record , I think the Harpy is Daario. He’ll be another of her three betrayels.

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    27. Thank you for doing this! It was really fun to participate in the poll and great fun reading the results. I’m so happy to see such a strong showing from folks who frequent this site! I also really appreciated the “shits and giggles” section. It made for some great chuckles over my morning (rapidly approaching afternoon, but, hey, it’s the weekend, so I’m lazy) coffee.

      May the Old Gods and the New bless you!

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    28. Sou,

      You are correct. It definitely doesn’t add up to 100% there. Also….

      Watchers on the Wall had the second highest “Yes” votes of any fan community to Tyrion Targaryen •Yes: 1311 (39.2%)

      •ASOIAF Facebook had the highest percentage of “Yes” votes of any fan community to the Tyrion Targ Theory •Yes: 93 (38.9%)

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    29. I’ll leave the theory debates to everyone who wants to indulge, while I smile at the community spirit of (almost) 3500 of us Watchers who responded. Cheers! 🙂

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    30. With the huge amount of people who took part in this long ass survey I think this dude should start a petition to demand president Obama to use his executive powers and get HBO to start working on a spinoff series.

      I mean wtf, isn’t a spinoff series at this point a no brainer?

      If GoT goes 8 seasons that gives HBO about four years to get it ready for Spring of 2019.

      HBO can’t afford to wait a few years after GoTs ends, they need to keep the momentum going with a spinoff right away which means HBO executives need to get their asses in gear and make this shit happen.

      Hopefully with D&D in some kind of oversite role, if not move on and find some other competent producers/show runners to keep that HBO creative team and crew assembled to keep cranking out epics.

      It be inexcusable if HBO disassembles what they have in place to bring us this supremely high quality epic called GoT.

      Keep this machine running on the high octane fuel of GRRM’s fantasy world of Westeros and the ratings, subscriptions, cash and critical acclaim will keep pouring in.

      HBO executives would honestly have to be braindead if they already ain’t working to make this happen.

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    31. Arthur: I mean wtf, isn’t a spinoff series at this point a no brainer?

      Not really: it completely depends on whether they could make a good over-arching story within this universe. Much of what people have suggested (the Dance with Dragons or Robert’s Rebellion) really would not make a good spinoff as there would not be an obvious story to tell, just a lot of plot and action.

      And, let’s face it: GRRM is not going to have any sequel series for this!

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    32. Another hint:

      “Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine.”

      Then whose? Who is Tywin think about here? If he thinks about this, then he knows that someone else f*cked Joanna instead of him. But who? (and here comes Barristan’s hint about Aerys who took liberties)

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    33. Wimsey: Much of what people have suggested (the Dance with Dragons or Robert’s Rebellion) really would not make a good spinoff as there would not be an obvious story to tell, just a lot of plot and action.

      Unless they were forced to change the plot a lot to fit an interesting story… which would result in even worst whining from book purists.

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    34. There were two important omissions in the part one of the survey: 1. For the AA question, there should have been a “Brienne” answer. IMO it would have received close to 10% of the votes. 2. For the Lightbringer question “Ice (reforged)” should have been included among the possible alternatives.

      I think both are relatively popular theories even though they may ultimately prove not to be true.

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    35. Wimsey: Much of what people have suggested (the Dance with Dragons or Robert’s Rebellion) really would not make a good spinoff as there would not be an obvious story to tell, just a lot of plot and action.

      What’s wrong with the Dance of the Dragons?

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    36. You know,I´m impressed with the amount of responses from WATCHERS ON THE WALL…What is it? All those people lurk here and never post?

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    37. Ginevra,

      Agreed. I’ve always interpreted ‘the seed is strong’ to include the inheritance of personality traits, in addition to more physical attributes such as eye and hair color. One of GRRM’s major themes is the subversion of expectations associated with physique, i.e. the ‘small man casting a big shadow,’ via the extent of ones impact on the world at large (e.g. Tyrion, Littlefinger, Bran). As you point out, Tyrion is unquestionably Tywin’s son in temperament– his ultimate match. In contrast to Jaime and Cersei, who are repeatedly described as hot-tempered, rash, reckless, impatient, impetuous, etc., Tyrion has a ‘cold’ decision-making capacity and remarkable creative ingenuity (his talent for cyvasse, plumbing, and designing saddles are all good illustrations), which he presumably inherited from Tywin and Lann the Clever, not Aerys!! Strangely enough, he is also less likely than his siblings to be motivated by love or honor (sound like anyone..?). Despite Tyrion’s occasional passionate outbursts, he is highly effective at playing the long game. He is a major player. And why shouldn’t that be a full-blooded Lion?

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    38. bulzz:
      Then whose? Who is Tywin think about here?

      Nobody. He’s not seriously thinking about it, he’s essentially saying that he doesn’t like the idea that Tyrion is his son (as in Tyrion’s “all dwarves are bastards in their fathers’ eyes”, because of what it supposedly says about them). If Tywin was actually saying that he suspected Tyrion wasn’t his son, why would Tyrion himself not pick up on that? More than that, Tywin Lannister isn’t the sort of man who would raise a child he had reason to think was the result of his being cuckolded; his whole life is driven by fragile pride.

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    39. bulzz,

      Birth defects such as dwarfism were (and still are in some places) assumed to be evidence of adultery by women. For example, part of the case against Anne Boleyn had to do with deformities in miscarried fetuses: thise “proved” they were not Henry’s. So,Tywin would have had that reason to investigate the possibilty that he was not the father: and it seems implausible that he would not have discovered that it could have been Aerys had that actually have been the case. “Could have been” would have been all Tywin needed for proof given that he did not want Tyrion to be his son.

      As for Aerys’ liberties, that is a far cry from saying that he had sex with her: given that he was carting her off naked to her wedding bed, it probably refers to groping. Moreover, even if Aerys did slip in some jus primae noctis somehow, then that would not account for Tyrion: he was cenceived many years later

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    40. bulzz,

      Tywin and Aerys were always playing their petty games of one-upmanship, envious tit-for-tat, with each other. With that history of Aerys trying to take things away from Tywin, and rubbing it in his face, with the intention of humiliating him, it would be a natural conclusion for Tywin to suspect Aerys of forcing himself onto Joanna (regardless of whether that actually transpired, it was certainly Aerys’ intention to put that idea into Tywin’s mind, in order to torment him, and make him squirm). Tywin definitely had reason to suspect that Tyrion might not be his biological son; however, without a paternity test, it was still only a belief– one which suited him. It suited Tywin’s vanity to believe that he couldn’t possibly have fathered something as deformed as Tyrion (his prejudice also made him blind to all Tyrion’s outstanding qualities, including denial of his and Tyrion’s obvious commonalities). Likewise, it appealed to him to believe that the beautiful golden specimens (Jaime and Cersei) were definitely his (this bias also made him relatively more forgiving of their shortcomings). By the way, Joanna and Tywin were cousins, so a child born of incest would be more, not less, likely to be ‘deformed’/abnormal/exceptional in some way than a child born to parents from two unrelated families (as GRRM’s text is fond of reminding us).

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    41. Tywin of the Hill: What’s wrong with the Dance of the Dragons?

      There is not an obvious story in it: it’s really more of a history. Series like GoT succeed because they focus on people tying themselves in knots in different “should I/shouldn’t I” scenarios. As Luka Nieto notes, it would take some major alterations of the plot to fit anything like that into this: basically, everyone in this conflict seemed to be pretty unconflicted about what they should be doing.

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    42. Summer Child: Strangely enough, he is also less likely than his siblings to be motivated by love or honor (sound like anyone..?).

      I would disagree with that. Tyrion is a much more empathetic character than either of his siblings, and Tyrion is much more apt to look for a mutually agreeable solution and/or to think of third parties. Jaime is starting to become that way (as we saw at the end of last season and at the end of Dragons), but Cersei is strictly Lannister First.

      To a big extent, that is less heredity and more the circumstances of Tyrion’s birth. Being a dwarf, he couldn’t become a warrior, so he became a scholar. That was in part consistent with Family Honor: Tyrion had to do something to further the Lannister cause. Now, there obviously is some variation in innate intelligence associated with heredity: but to a really big extent, minds that actively try to learn and that actively take on mentally engaging problems will make themselves functionally smarter. It’s not different than what happens to athletic skills if you actively workout and practice in many ways.

      This probably will be important to the story. Jon’s most important traits come about from being a bastard, and thus being treated as slightly subhuman by other people. Jon’s passionate desire to show that bastards can be as “good” as trueborns drives him, but bastardy also has given him an ability to empathize with the disliked. Similarly, Daeny’s important traits come from being the extraneous little sister and the bartered bride. That has left her with the same passionate desire to show that she can succeed where her brother failed, but also has given her the ability to empathize with the disregarded.

      In the end, these personal histories are going to be critical for some decisions regarding how they are to deal with the Walkers, R’hllor, etc.

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    43. Not wanting to westeros-bash, but why so few responses from Westeros.org? Are they just a loud minority among the fans who actually aren’t that numerous? Or do they just not join in things like this?

      Anyways, but to the topic at hand, thanks a ton for doing this! Some interesting reading for the break between leaked filming reports and the season starting.

      Can we do another one on opinions on adaptation, such as:

      Q. How much does it bother you that LSH is out?

      Tick one of:

      – Don’t care at all
      – I would like to see her, but not the end of the world
      – I care deeply and curse D&D daily
      – I still hold out hope!

      So we can see which opinions are held by the overwhelming majority and which are loud minorities.

      Would be interesting reading.

      Obviously that kind of thing would show up massive differences between fan sites… Could see statistically if the WoTW and Westeros crowds are as polar opposite as they seem to be.

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    44. Jack,

      I think they are two of the only characters it would be interesting for because of the reasons given. For all the others (besides Jon) I don’t think there’s any dimensions it would open up for them so would be pointless. Targaryens are the main protaganists…and antagonists of the ASoIF world so they are going to be featured a lot!

      Wimsey,

      I think Robert’s Rebellion could be very good if they focused on the right stories and kept it to one season…but we’ve had this conversation before. Dance with Dragons….think it would be more dificult as they’d be working with a completely fresh set of characters and if people aren’t into Targaryens then it’s not going to have as bigger audience ( I see Targs very much as GRRM’s equivalent of Tolkiens Elves and there’s a number of reasons the Simarillion hasn’t made it onto the silver screen!).

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    45. Wimsey,

      I’d say the overall arcs are pretty obvious: two families grasp for the brass ring and lose everything in so doing. The Princess and the Queen tries to frame it as being driven by Rhaenyra and Alicent, which I don’t think is wholly successful since Alicent kind of drops out midway through, but she’s also left to see the ruin of her entire line of descent, which is a pretty fitting capper to the tragedy she substantially brought about.

      TheTouchofFrost,

      I think it’s a better idea to strike out entirely into a new time period with new characters, rather than inviting constant comparison between the actors playing the GOT-era versions of the characters and the prequel ones. And I think there’s plenty of room in a telling of the Dance to bring in people other than the Targaryens; I expect that Lord Cregan Stark would probably not miss out on the whole war, for instance, in a TV adaptation.

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    46. Still think Tyrion is a Targaryen. Only that make sense for the story. For me these are clearly hints for this by George. And the series did finally a hint as well with a Red Priestess scene in Volantis. Just like Jon’s first meeting with Melisandre at the pyre.

      Waiting for a Tyrion-dragon scene in season 6.

      maybe he will release them when many shit happens in Meereen

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    47. The biggest problem with adapting Robert’s Rebellion is that the principal characters,Rhaegar and Lyanna just arent interesting,yeah i know unpopular opinion but whatever . Sure there are other characters that we know and love and new ones who are interesting like Arthur Dayne for example,but when the ones who are integral to the plot are nothing more than cliche romance novel characters with their only purpose is creating a character we actually care about,that’s a problem .

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    48. Tyrion the Myrion,

      Lyanna wouldn’t be a principal character in a Robert’s Rebellion adaptation, or at least not so important as to be called one of “the” principal characters alongside Rhaegar. All she did during the rebellion, as far as we can guess, was sit in a remote tower and give birth. Rhaegar would be somewhat more important. The principal character would be Ned, along with the other leaders of the rebellion.

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    49. bulzz:
      Only that make sense for the story. And the series did finally a hint as well with a Red Priestess scene in Volantis. Just like Jon’s first meeting with Melisandre at the pyre.

      Of course story can work without Tyrion being another secret Targaryen. Just too much. Daeny, Tyrion and Jon finding way to each other and riding dragons. Someone maybe wants that, but for me it’s just too corny. Obviously it’s not impossible.

      His scene in Volantis was at least to me more of a signal that he has a role to play in the war to come and R’hllor is interest in him. Much like Jon and Mel. It doesn’t suggest that Red Priestess and their intense stares would suggest that one is a Targaryen. We’ll see in new season and maybe we’ll learn more, but show so far never indicated anything else than Tyrion being Tywin son, but that might change with some solid proof.

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    50. bulzz: Still think Tyrion is a Targaryen. Only that make sense for the story.

      I cannot see any way in which this would further the story. How would Tyrion learning that he is Aerys’ son have any effect on his development as a person? We can see what it would do for Jon: Jon will know that his adoptive father had to live with known dishonor of keeping a bastard and the internal dishonor about living a lie in order to avoid the external dishonor that the truth would bring to his family and internal the dishonor he almost certainly would have felt for letting an innocent child die. We can pretty much bet that Jon is going to be in a position where he has to choose one dishonor or another, and that thinking of what Ned Stark did for him is going to hugely affect Jon’s decision.

      (This might very well be the bittersweet aspect of the ending: Jon, Daeny and others are going to survive, but they are going to have to live forever wondering if there could not have been some other way.)

      However, I cannot see how we can come up with a comparable scenario for Tyrion. Tywin did not spare Tyrion despite knowing that Aerys was Tyrion’s father: if Tywin had even suspected that, then he would have killed Tyrion. Tyrion will not owe anything to any choice that anybody made concerning this truth: there is no Ned Stark analog, and it is much, much too late to introduce one.

      Sean C.: but she’s also left to see the ruin of her entire line of descent, which is a pretty fitting capper to the tragedy she substantially brought about.

      But that is all plot, and the sort of thing happened all the time in real history. It lacks is the essence of story: identity crises that create real doubt about whether protagonists should do X or Y. The only “doubts” this would offer are tactical ones: will A or B best lead us to victory? There never are any questions about why the individuals are trying to wage or win the war, and that is what would be needed for it to be a story.

      In all honesty, I think that the best thing to do with Westeros after the series is done is to remember it fondly and move on to something else.

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    51. I laughed way too much at some voters’ attempts to make Meereenese/Volantene/Ghiscari names by stringing together lots of Qs, Xs and Zs.

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    52. Wimsey:
      There never are any questions about why the individuals are trying to wage or win the war, and that is what would be needed for it to be a story.

      That’s a pretty narrow definition of what would make a story (and in any event, I think that an event like the Dance of the Dragons offers plenty of scrutiny as to why the war is being waged and whether it’s worth doing). GRRM sketched out plenty of character journeys in those novellas that would work very well as outlines for a TV show. Indeed, that he enjoys writing stories in Targaryen history shows that he sees quite a lot of story there.

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    53. Sean C.: That’s a pretty narrow definition of what would make a story (and in any event, I think that an event like the Dance of the Dragons offers plenty of scrutiny as to why the war is being waged and whether it’s worth doing).GRRM sketched out plenty of character journeys in those novellas that would work very well as outlines for a TV show.Indeed, that he enjoys writing stories in Targaryen history shows that he sees quite a lot of story there.

      Martin sees quite a lot of story in the Night Watch’s broom closet too.

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    54. I don’t think A+J= Tyrion is so crazy.

      Tyrion has more dragon imagery and associations with dragons in his story than Jon does. Tyrion even has more hints that he’s a potential dragon rider. Jon literally has zero hints or foreshadowing of any dragon riding.

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    55. Abyss,

      Those stats are too low, actually. External stat sites like that don’t have access to our stats so they estimate somehow. But they’re not accurate, I can see right off the bat.

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    56. Turncloak:
      I just really hope GRRM doesn’t make Tyrion a secret Targaryen. I think that would be an awful idea.

      I don’t think anything is a terrible idea… but there are definitely ways to make anything good or terrible.

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    57. Sean C.,

      I don’t know if HBO would gamble on a completely new cast though. The fact there aren’t really any strong links to the current GoT series too is an unknown quantity as to whether it would draw people in. RR would have some familiar characters and themes that would attract people as it already has some teasers dotted about the show. Throw in a strong focus on the relationship between Lyanna,Rhaegar and Robert, the relationship between Tywin and Aerys with the latters descent into madness, the north’s quest for revenge and Jaime’s struggle between honour and morality and you have a very strong base to build a season around. As to the actors needed. Sure you’d need a young Ned (already cast!), Robert, Jaime and Cersai and potentially Cat, Lyssa and Littlefinger but guys like Tywin, Varys, Pycelle and Gregor Clegane wouldn’t need a recast IMO. The show would face comparisons to the original in some form anyway so I think it doesn’t matter what form that comes in. I’d certainly watch it…as you would the vast majorioty of fans of the current show.
      I think it could grab the casual fans which a dance may struggle to do.

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    58. The difference between jon and dany in AAR response is shame …
      That really gives an idea about what this fandom is about when it comes to starks and the others . and people are willing to consider there is no AA if not jon ….

      There should have been a question…that who do u think as AAR if not jon …iam sure everyone from brienne and rickon will be getting more votes or no one will be leading it …

      Personally I am looking forward to the season It can’t come soon enough. The events of jon coming back and what is Mel going to do …is she going to proclaim him as AAR …will fans accept this now .. But on the other hand if the prophecies are only mentioned in dany’s story line we will be sure of who is who …

      I do hope this one thing is answered straight in the show …because iam not sure George is going to be that straight with this …he will leave some room to speculate about jon or others …

      The lannisters being targ is never a good theory ….the cersei and Jamie one was put down by TwOIAF I believe …but at the same time he left a possiblity of tyrion being bastard …i really can’t see the purpose of tyriom being targ other than him having to ride a dragon

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    59. Sue the Fury,

      Too low? Those stats are already pretty impressive. I guess this site is much bigger than I had any idea of!

      Regarding the poll, the two most divisive questions seem to be the poisoned locusts and the Hooded Man ones. I am very interested in finding out who the Hooded Man will turn out to be. I hope we get a definite answer for that and it’s not left ambiguous.

      For AAR, the high percentage for Jon and the low percentage for Dany is surprising since she seems to be the most obvious answer. I personally went for many different characters will reflect AA’s characteristics.

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    60. dragonbringer,

      I voted for Jon beeing AAR, in the sense that it seems to me that he is a pretty central character as regards the fight against the Others. Mind you, I am principally a show-watcher. Couldn’t quite get to actually read the books. But if I had to choose my AAR, and not guess from the hints in the show, I would say there is no AAR; that he is rather a symbol for human resistance.

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    61. ghost of winterfell,

      I don’t understand why some think AAR can be a group of people when he is always spoken of in the singular, wielding a specific sword, plunging it into his wife, and it is he who gets reborn. Granted, this dude will have some help but his co-saviors wouldn’t automatically get christened with the specific title he’s given.

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    62. MeeraReed,

      I don’t play the Lottery but hubby does. He wanted me to be his good luck charm of sorts by putting the money down and picking the numbers. How did you do? I did not get even one match haha. I did get the Powerball right, which is the number I felt strongest about, except apparently that ticket is for the next drawing. I can’t believe it’s at almost a billion dollars though. Think I’d have a heat attack if I won that much.

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    63. YgritTe,

      Because AA was a myth, a legend, not a historical figure. There is no real proof such a hero actually existed. It could be that different deeds by different people were all credited to one legendary figure, thus Azor Ahai. Something like that could happen again.

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    64. ghost of winterfell,

      Oh so we might need to look at it as one of those myths handed down over generations that some in present day Westeros are taking too literally or maybe some truth to it only the facts got misconstrued over the years? I thought we really would get at least TPTWP. I mean that appears to be part of the fantasy build-up of the story. A key figure in the coming war.

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    65. ghost of winterfell,

      There are three prophecies that speak of a promised prince born and part of the long night….AAR TpTWP and TsWmtW ..which I believe all are different version of same prophecy

      Thrre is lots of tales and myths about this figure in many societies which we learn in TWOIAF like LH Eldric and so on …

      Now its fun to speculate about jorah brienne and davos and jamie as AAR …but they all fell apart when you consider everything of the prophecy present in the books…

      Is there anything to point jorah as AAR other than thinking it would be cool dany gets stabbed in the back by him…after all what a crime she did when she told him she can’t love him the same way he does …

      Jamie and brienne honestly is there any thing that points to them and war of dawn or something in the books ….their story is tied with cersei and LSH and BWB…I honestly expecting brienne will be dying in the next season at riverrun …

      That leaves davos ….he is not an equal to jon or dany or have the same importance …but sure he will be a playing part …but AAR just no …

      Will jon or dany single handedly take down WW no they will get help from others …
      Just like stannis said ” even AA didn’t fight his war alone ” ….if say Davis brienne and jorah fights in the war of dawn it will be as the followers of jon and dany not as AAr

      Only two candidates are left with any importance and leaders who can be AAr and have an equal part to play and comes from the same line of Aerys and rhaella …
      Now dany has fulfilled every part of it and jon still have to and even when he comes back its going to be because of the actions of others like Mel and bran …not by himself…
      Iam OK with thinking that both jon and dany as AAR but I have to see how jon will fulfill any prophecies …

      The books Have set up a red herring with stannis and dany as the slayer of that lie ….

      So I expect we will be seeing more about this prophecies in meereen and dany’s storyline than in next season …

      Sou,

      True jon is central to the war against WW but as we saw in hardhome episode they don’t stand a chance against them alone….they need a wildcard and there is someone who is on the other side ….

      Now the show gave us some clues and foreshadowings of dany beimg a part of battle against WW like

      The spiral ..
      The first time we see the WW they do this spiral design with bodies in episode 1 of season 1

      We see a parallel with dany at drogo funeral pyre at end of season 1

      The same thing we see on season 3 …jon and mance discover the bodies of horses on spiral shape

      Dany ends the season with people gathering around her I’m spiral shape. .

      In HotU dany is seen at the Wall …

      Now they have left many things from the books like slayer of lie part which shows that stannis is fake and she is the real one ..

      There was actually a blue heart that was in the HOTU which was taken down by drogon and dany ….blue heart paralleling heart of winter .

      Or aemon dying speech about dany and prophecies…

      Now they have started showing the hints to dany as AAr last seasom and will follpw it next season with introducing One who is promised ..
      But my main worry is watever the show or books does …it will be taken differently ..
      Aemon speech about dany being alone is taken as a clue for RLJ not as jon being there for dany as a family
      Even the red priest speech in volantis is taken as something important for tyrion by the fandom amd what she has been saying was ignored …
      Anything about dany is ignored is what iam afraid of ..

      I can see show watchers going for jon but i think that will change in this coming season …

      I have no problem against jon being no 1 option in that poll …I can see the reasoning but the one who was unburnt in the pyre wakes dragons from the stone after hundreds of years they have been dead And the one who was called bride of fire is not even close to Jon and what more she is not even in the second place …
      If all that is not enough for being something as a symbol for fire then I don’t know what does . ..

      GRRm have spent too much time on prophecies not only in the main series but Also in dunk and egg series …to make them as just not true …..and he has spend too much time on dany and the connection of her to those prophecies simply turning out to be a red herring either …

      dany as AAR have same or equal amount of foreshadowings as of what RLJ ….is dany being AAr is obvious but so does RLJ and I dont see it ranked below …

      I wonder what will be the results for the TPTWP or TSWMtW …if only dothraki was in westeros then somehow it would be connrcted to jon …

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    66. ghost of winterfell:
      YgritTe,

      Because AA was a myth, a legend, not a historical figure. There is no real proof such a hero actually existed. It could be that different deeds by different people were all credited to one legendary figure, thus Azor Ahai. Something like that could happen again.

      YgritTe:
      ghost of winterfell,

      Oh so we might need to look at it as one of those myths handed down over generations that some in present day Westeros are taking too literally or maybe some truth to it only the facts got misconstrued over the years?

      Here’s an analogy that I think of, with regard to these millennia-old legends from the Age of Heroes, like AA or TPTWP:

      Lots of cultures and religions in our world have tales of a Great Flood in ancient times that seemed to cover the whole world, in which only a handful of people managed to survive (perhaps through divine intervention) to be the ancestors of that particular culture (or of all humankind). You could interpret those stories as meaning that Noah, Deucalion, First Man etc. are all different names for the same primordial hero. OR you could deduce that such stories represent memories handed down through thousands of generations of the catastrophic flooding that must have occurred when the glaciers melted at the end of the last Ice Age, about 12,000 years ago, and isolated pockets of people survived while many did not. One view is informed more by religion, the other more by science.

      In my view, the grain of literal truth contained in any stories purporting to be from so long ago must be assumed to be heavily overlaid with myth, morality tales, ethnic, political and religious bias, people’s need to come up with simple explanations for things that they don’t understand and the universal human love of storytelling. As GRRM has warned us, the ancient legends of Westeros and Essos should be taken with a grain of salt. That’s why my brain tunes out anytime people start arguing about whom Jon or Dany is going to have to stab as their Nissa Nissa.

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    67. dragonbringer,

      You have a point; and you really are a fan, wow!
      I agree that Daenerys seems to have lost importance these past 1-2 seasons. I mean she is less “central” to the whole plot now, and Jon does seem to have taken the lead. Especially now, with what happened to him last season!
      I think this is partly because from what I gather (as I said, I put the book down too soon…) Daeny’s Meereen plot is well, not that exciting, in the books as it is in the show. I personally hoped this would get better with Tyrion there, but there’s this Dothraki twist, so let’s see what happens. I hope they surprise us (and they don’t spend too much time on Dothraki powerplay). I mean , we have the Others somewhere up north, let’s focus on them!
      The other reason Jon is favoured by the show I think may have to do with the basics: I am a woman myself and by no means wish to belittle my own sex, but let’s face it. Audiences and people in general are more confortable with heros rather than heroines. It’s the stereotype: the brave lad (and usually quite handsome lad) that saves the world with his sword or gun or superpower or whatever. Stereotypes are hard to resist and even harder to beat.

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    68. @mods

      Looks like the site ate my post. Could you see if it is still somewhere waiting to be moderated? It was pretty long, so I don’t really want to write it again.

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    69. Sou,

      Yes, and for many women, having a masculine hero feeds into the romantic notions we have regarding the whole Prince Charming/Knight in shining armor narrative that has been with us since we were young girls. Having Daenerys end up being the conqueror or “savior,” in this epic tale, while possibly being “interesting” depending on how it plays out, would also necessarily serve to deprive us of the sentimental conclusion we’ve had hopes for. I do admire Dragonbringers devotion to her though 🙂

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    70. YgritTe:
      Sou,

      Yes, and for many women, having a masculine hero feeds into the romantic notions we have regarding the whole Prince Charming/Knight in shining armor narrative that has been with us since we were young girls. Having Daenerys end up being the conqueror or “savior,” in this epic tale, while possibly being “interesting” depending on how it plays out, would also necessarily serve to deprive us of the sentimental conclusion we’ve had hopes for. I do admire Dragonbringers devotion to Dany

      Dragonbringer, I join YgritTe in her admiration for your devotion!
      YgritTe, I think you have put this in an excellent way. Nothing to do about it: boys are too impregnated with macho-ism (even latent) to accept easily a hero-ine instead of a hero; girls want their prince charming; show producers very well know that and will, I’m afraid, play by the rules; and 70 year old authors who could make a difference and turn the situation over never get to sit down and do their homework!

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    71. YgritTe,

      Sou,

      I really don’t think this show will end up being one of those stories about a superhero saving the world, be it Jon or Danaerys. They will both be very important to the end game, probably the most important, but this is not a story about a Messiah saving the world, atleast I hope not. Tyrion, Bran, Arya, maybe others like Sansa and Jaime will all have important roles here.
      And Dany is every bit as important as Jon. She has been very clearly projected as a “hero” pretty early on.

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    72. Sou,

      Thanks ..
      When I first started in this fandom my username was jon rhaegar stark can you believe that. …..i like all characters and my top 3 is dany jon and arya …..but it’s just out of these three jon and arya rarely needed to be defended there are plenty of people for that but for dany there needs to be lots of defending ..

      I do think you have point about dany taking step back with meereen …but that was what GrRm is aiming for I think ….if she just gone from ASoS with all the victories and then went in to westeros and fights WW then people would have found that uninteresting….
      I remember the end of season 3 and I am sure you can watch it now also ….almost all of the podcasts and YouTube reviews wanted dany to struggle and not just keep getting victories but face some hurdles in her victory ….that’s exactly what happened in this two seasons….I will admit I slept while reading ADWD be it jon tyrion or dany ….it took me two rereads to understand what’s really happening in meereen with dany and essos with tyrion . ..jon while I understood what’s happening its a borefest too …there is a reason why the show seemed to focus on too much action on the wall for the last two season other than watchers on the wall neither crasters keep or hardhome were in the books…i think the stereotypes are also a reson for that …and not to mention the others are no where to be seen in the books till now ….I believe TSWmTW as a version of TPTWp and dothraki will play a part in the war of dawn and they give dany a parallel with what jon will be doing with the wildlings ..
      Now as GRRm put it she is coming home and Iam sure she will be on the frontline again starting this season and when she is on the westeros…

      I agree about the stereotypes and guess thats why they have dumbed down jon into just a sword wielding guy with secret identity and dany into a Queen who gets rescued by her dragons and admirers..

      YgritTe,

      I wouldnt go that far as an devoted am just against bias against dany …..for me jon and dany us like a yin and yang …in the books they have been referenced many times as sun and moon respectively…neither exists without other ..both have the equal amount of importance in the story and have mystery associated with them one have RLJ and other have 3 headed dragon

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    73. ghost of winterfell,

      I would like to take a leaf out of wimsey and make a harry Potter referrence …as we know Harry was the chosen one …but if you ask me if not for say dumbledore ,snape and Hermione and ron…harry wouldn’t have turned into what he turned out to be ….even Neville got to destroy a horcrux ….
      So I expect the same from Asoiaf ….while I agree about jon and dany are the main protagonists no one can Deny the Importance or the roles bran tyrion and davos and Sam will play ….iam sure arya will play a role to but I don’t know what that is and the same goes for sansa …

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    74. dragonbringer,

      You know we can agree on many things and this comment is no different. Jon will be an important figure even without that title and be a hero in every bit of this word. Daeny is wieved by some as hero or leaning towars being anti-hero with all the Targ craziness that can happen. I guess people do take hints to myths, legends and prophecies with a less certainty than parentage, but I do understand you on this. Myths can be tricky. Blue Heart I must’ve missed that.

      Aemon speech or most of all timing of Jon’ arrival and they way camera was focused on him…it does look like another hint for R+L=J and especially in the season where they started to do that in a bigger scale.

      And yes they do quite parallel each other in the books or in the show. I wonder what this means. Two heroes rising, learning, failing to be stronger. I have to say I would be a bit dissapointec if this gi traditional route of romance, but I do understand that this is a possibility. TFA did a great job in this without need for any romance with focuse on the story and that would WW bthreat.

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    75. On topics about the prophecy in show ….as far as I remember David benioff have mentioned twice about chosen one and prophecy when speaking about dany in the inside episodes …once in the episode at the gates of yunkai season 3 ender and again at daznak pit when dany flies away and tyrion reaction …
      So I hope the more he will be giving up in coming season

      And Sou about stereotypes I remembered something that I forget to mention in my post…I think you are spot in with that because the biggest reason there is this much support for jon as AAr is because of one line from ADwD and even before that people were trying to make him into fit into that one ..

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    76. dragonbringer,

      I don’t think that’s a fair comparison though. In the HP novels, he was the focus in all the books, with the others supporting him. It’s not the same in ASOIAF. All the different POV characters have their own stories, and they are all protagonists in their own right.

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    77. Geralt of Rivia,

      Thanks …

      Yes the blue heart is corrupted in the HOTU and gives the strength to the undying present in the House of the undying. ….they try to take the life force away
      Now there is another dream in the books in AGOt where she is born as a dragon and flies and sees herslef as the last dragon …she is running away from the coldness and dark and her ancesstors push her to wake and fly which she does at the end of the dream …

      Now just replace the courrpted heart with heart of winter and undying with WW you get the war of dawn ….

      And she flies away from the cold and dark by opening a door …I think that’s her red door …i always thought that red door dany is wanting is a metaphor than an actual house with red door …

      Oh I agree its a clue for another RLJ but the context also must have been considered …..take aemon dying from the books he dies wanting to go help dany and his line aboutabout how awful its to be targ alone in the show….we see dany always looking for a family and not to be alone ….another parallel jon shares with dany …

      In the books there is this line about how jon feels alone eventhough he is sleeping next to ygtite and we have dany feeling alone evenghough Daario is sleeping next to her …

      I don’t have a problem with them becoming a pair…there have been enough foreshadowing about it what’s with bride of fire and things I mentioned above …..my only worry is it may feel as rushed in the show ……but Iam sure they will find a family in each other and come out of their outsider status

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    78. ghost of winterfell,

      I agree these are two different style of books….
      But even there are povs we can still tell their importance right ….we have arys and quentyn and aero as POVs can we place them as same as On the level of jon dany arya tyrion bran …

      We have characters like davos .,sam .,brienne and barristan all playing supporting roles. …

      The sometimes characters like stannis mance or jorah end up more important than some pov characters….

      Now the POVs from GOT are the main characters in the story while Jamie and cersei became more important in later but still this series was about the five characters who grows up in this timeline add sansa to this list ….

      But you can see who will be the central and leading the story forward….the stark children revolve around jon while tyrion is around dany ….so you can see why I consider jon and dany at the top two and others below them

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    79. dragonbringer,

      Ah books yes, they may be totally different animal in regards to the ending I would lean towards or favor at this point. Since I only ever watch the show, visually what I’m drawn to and got most invested in was King’s Landing of course, but then the story line at the wall/castle Black and Jon’s physical and emotional journey. Whereas with Dany I didn’t find her arc all that interesting after the dragons were born. And I do like dragons, they’re cool, so I don’t know why but it started to bore me, probably around the time she met Darrio…the first one. Maybe if she’d have interacted with them more, try to get them under control, some sort of dynamic besides chaining them up. That’ll likely be coming I gather. Even Jorah has become a bore. He never smiles, He’s got nothing going on except for always trying so hard to just be in this young woman’s good graces and that’s ALL we ever see from him. Unless I’m forgetting stuff…

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    80. dragonbringer,

      I’m not Sou, but if I can add something… regarding people trying to make him fit in, that might not be just to fulfill stereotypes but more so the likability factor. Imo Dany is not very likable. She was an underdog type we rooted for when she finally set her brother in his place but I did not care for her demanding ways with the Dothraki. Using some finesse would have been smarter. I don’t like how she treated the slavers. Dispose of them fine, but not sink to the level she did. Also, I believe should have shown mercy to the boy that pleaded after just trying to do something good for her. Did she have to take his life, really? The imperial vibe she has acquired doesn’t sit as well as Jon’s more humble attitude. And she has dragons, and loyal subjects to do her dirty work whereas Jon has had to get his own hands dirty. If there is to be a fabled hero in this, he is the true warrior, though to be fair there’s time enough that she might just step up and become one as well.

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    81. YgritTe,

      Books and show will be having the same ending and I believe the major characters will end up the same ending as that they have in books …say in the books jon gets married to arya …iam sure he will be doing that in the show…the top 5 or 6 as in jon dany arya and sansa and bran and tyrion will be having the same ending just that the way they reach will be different …

      The meeting of daario is around when the meereen starts ….and a part of blame is on GRRm himself ….dany went through tremendous character growth in AGOT which was released as separate book as Blood of the Dragon and got GRRm an award …
      He first planned it to be a triology and three phases where the phase 1 will be about War of five kings and second phase dany conquering westeros and third phase war of dawn …then as the story progressed the series became a 7 books series and iam not even sure he can finish it within the seven books…

      So due to his gardening style and sped through the dany development in a single book …he began stalling her in meereen …the only character who got the worse because of his decision to not to have a five year gap and gardening is five year gap …
      But for me as well as AFFC and ADWD written GRRm just stalled every major character from jon to arya to bran to sansa and tyrion to dany ….and focused more on the new POVs….by doing so he lost his way around in the story and can’t seem to wrap everything ..

      And the show did not do any better especially in season 4,where she didn’t have one good human moment other than having to sit and act as queen…..what was needed was more scenes of her with missandei and barristan like in season 5 which is present more in the books ….she constantly questions herself which we never know if we only watched show

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    82. YgritTe,

      The event I mentioned is long before ADWd and meereen …even then there were the same attempts …

      Tell me something how its different from what jon did to Janos slynt ….
      Why did he have to lose his head because he was insubordinate to the LC ….
      Whats different between what Robb did to karstark ….katstark disobeyed the order of king and killed the hostages and prisoners ..

      Now tell me how dany case is different from the avove two example….he went against he queen orders and killed a prisoner waiting for a trial ….

      and another thing for years people were calling for dany learning about her father and admitting his mistakes ….but when she actually does listens to barristan and says I won’t be like my father ….no mention of that but starts another criticism of killing a insubordinate member of her council ….

      Ah the classic the starks are the best because they get their hands dirty ….that’s their Custom and they do it ….whereas its not the custom of dany ….

      The two persons she has killed MMD and Kraznys she has killed by her own hands ….she goes and strikes kraznys in the face with tokar and pours the oil on the MMD with her own hands …

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    83. YgritTe,

      The event I mentioned is long before ADWd and meereen …even then there were the same attempts …

      Tell me something how its different from what jon did to Janos slynt ….
      Why did he have to lose his head because he was insubordinate to the LC ….
      Whats different between what Robb did to karstark ….katstark disobeyed the order of king and killed the hostages and prisoners ..

      Now tell me how dany case is different from the avove two example….he went against he queen orders and killed a prisoner waiting for a trial ….

      and another thing for years people were calling for dany learning about her father and admitting his mistakes ….but when she actually does listens to barristan and says I won’t be like my father ….no mention of that but starts another criticism of killing a insubordinate member of her council ….

      Ah the classic the starks are the best because they get their hands dirty ….that’s their Custom and they do it ….whereas its not the custom of dany ….do you think sansa can follow the same tradition as of her fathers and brothers

      The two persons she has killed MMD and Kraznys she has killed by her own hands ….she goes and strikes kraznys in the face with tokar and pours the oil on the MMD with her own hands …

      You want humble she went into the midst of sick people and treated them with her own hands and gave them food and everything …which was not in the show

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    84. LordDavos,

      Only very general ones. Basically, it will involve the “why” of the Walkers: but that is sort of like saying that we are getting “cake” for dessert. We might have a much better idea after this seadon: learning how the last war really ended and why the Walkers are back should really limit the possibilities. (You know: to only a few thousand! 🙂 )

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    85. bulzz,

      If it is not mentioned, then it will not be anything other than what we are told. Good authors only do these sorts of things if they are relevant to the story or at least to the plot.

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    86. TheTouchofFrost: Prophecy could mean anything. Could just mean the dragons, could mean three people ( doesn’t state they have to be Targs), could mean something else. Jon, Dany and Tyrion riding the three dragons would be the corniest thing they could possibly do. From what we know of George’s writing he doesn’t really go for such things. Even if we do apply the ‘it has to be a Targ rule’ YG is a much liklier candidate.

      Geralt of Rivia: Of course story can work without Tyrion being another secret Targaryen. Just too much. Daeny, Tyrion and Jon finding way to each other and riding dragons. Someone maybe wants that, but for me it’s just too corny. Obviously it’s not impossible.

      I dont think the plot needs Tyrion as a secret Targaryen, it would simply serve to lessen Tyrion’s story line. But unlike most crackpot theories, there are at least some evidence for this theory. But if you have Jon, Tyrion and fAegon vying as secret Targayens it really becomes a bit too much.

      It is very difficult to imagine how all of the secret Targs will be riding dragons together against the dawn, and how that would actually fit into this story. If this is the direction the story is going in, it would take a lot of time to establish organically. It has taken Dany five books to ride a dragon, and she still does not have full control over Drogon.
      We only have two books left and we have two wild dragons. Tyrion at least is in the same proximity as the the dragons, but he does have other things to focus on at the moment. Jon is nowhere near a dragon and Dany will not arrive in Westeros very soon.
      It is difficult to imagine how they will find time to learn, to become dragon rides. Perhaps the dragon horn could help here. But ultimately I just dont believe that we will see anyone else besides Dany actually riding a dragon. The only other option for control is that Bran could perhaps warg into a dragon. I also wouldn’t be surprised if one of the dragons died before a big battle.

      TheTouchofFrost: I don’t know if HBO would gamble on a completely new cast though. The fact there aren’t really any strong links to the current GoT series too is an unknown quantity as to whether it would draw people in. RR would have some familiar characters and themes that would attract people as it already has some teasers dotted about the show. Throw in a strong focus on the relationship between Lyanna,Rhaegar and Robert, the relationship between Tywin and Aerys with the latters descent into madness, the north’s quest for revenge and Jaime’s struggle between honour and morality and you have a very strong base to build a season around. As to the actors needed. Sure you’d need a young Ned (already cast!), Robert, Jaime and Cersai and potentially Cat, Lyssa and Littlefinger but guys like Tywin, Varys, Pycelle and Gregor Clegane wouldn’t need a recast IMO. The show would face comparisons to the original in some form anyway so I think it doesn’t matter what form that comes in. I’d certainly watch it…as you would the vast majorioty of fans of the current show.
      I think it could grab the casual fans which a dance may struggle to do.

      A lot of people want a story about the rebellion, and it is easy to see why. It is currently shrouded in a lot of mystery with some intrigue. I think it might be an interesting story to tell from mainly Ned’s perspective. You could also add the perspectives of Tywin, Robert, Stannis, Jon Arryn and perhaps others like Varys, Pycelle, Benjen and a member from the Kingsguard.
      But one small problem with the Rebellion as a story is that we already know how the story ends. It really ends up with everyone being either dead or miserable, therefore the story would have to be told in a different manner then GoT.

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    87. I was so glad to see how many people took the poll within WOTW. I wouldn’t have imagined we are so many.
      I would like to see a series presenting Robert’s rebellion. I think it would be a Westerosi War and Peace, great!

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    88. Boudica,

      I agree with you i don’t think anyone is going to ride a dragon othee than dany and that in itself will be a proof she is the three headed dragon with her three dragons as the three heads ….

      If they decide to do the rebellion …then the obvious ending will be the birth of jon and dany …end the ninth episode with jon birth and tenth on dany’s birth ..
      I even have the title of last episode ” Dragon Reborn ” with dany comes to life at dragonstone amidst the storm and her mothers dying …and Willem darry carrying the baby and viserys out of dragonstone…

      Evnen the TWOIAF book ended with pictures of jon and ghost and dany and her dragons

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    89. Tywin of the Hill,

      One important point to consider about the possibilities of a Game of Thrones TV spinoff is that any show that is mainly about a war is going to be insanely expensive. Think about how little time the show has actually devoted to battle. Heck, in the first season, when the budget was lower, they all happened off-screen! Either of the spinoffs fans are talking about — Robert’s Rebellion or Dance of the Dragons — would spend much more screen time than GoT has so far on actual scenes of war.

      Robert’s Rebellion would be more expensive than GoT has been so far. But Dance of the Dragons, with all of its dragon CGI would be insanely expensive, for television, at least. It would definitely require the budget of a big Hollywood blockbuster movie to even have a chance of getting it right. HBO isn’t going to gamble such huge amounts of money on a show that might not be that much of a success. They’re only giving this show as much money as they are because it’s the most successful show in their entire history, and it’s making them tons of money.

      There’s no way to know if a spinoff would be successful or not. But it’s very rare for a spinoff of any TV show to be as much of a success as the original. (With a handful of exceptions.) But it would have to be MORE successful that GoT to justify the expense. And there’s really no way of knowing if it would be. Once the main story is over, many people may be done with it. And most of them won’t be invested enough in the world’s backstory to want to know about completely different characters from the past of this world.

      Surely, a spinoff would be nice! But I don’t see it happening. Especially not an expensive one based on wars.

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    90. dragonbringer,

      Yes the blue heart is corrupted in the HOTU and gives the strength to the undying present in the House of the undying. ….they try to take the life force away
      Now there is another dream in the books in AGOt where she is born as a dragon and flies and sees herslef as the last dragon …she is running away from the coldness and dark and her ancesstors push her to wake and fly which she does at the end of the dream …

      Now just replace the courrpted heart with heart of winter and undying with WW you get the war of dawn ….

      And she flies away from the cold and dark by opening a door …I think that’s her red door …i always thought that red door dany is wanting is a metaphor than an actual house with red door …

      Wow. You’re amazing and dedicated. Truly.

      Oh I agree its a clue for another RLJ but the context also must have been considered …..take aemon dying from the books he dies wanting to go help dany and his line aboutabout how awful its to be targ alone in the show….we see dany always looking for a family and not to be alone ….another parallel jon shares with dany …

      I took it that way of it being more of a R+L=J hint, but maybe we’re borth right in this. Although, I just don’t know if Jon is ever going to feel anything to his Targaryen side. I know people want him to adopt their name, ride a dragon and marry Daeny. They can be and probably will a family to each other.

      It’s like with MCU and Cap with Natasha. They would compliment each other as yin and yang, chemistry is great between actors and characters…but as Russos said it would be predictable way out. Everyone can see that. I remember George saying how he doesn’t do obvious stuff. Of course George intended to do something different and if he wants to do it. It’s his right and I’ll see how he writes this. I’m not for it, but not hating on it. I just think it’s not needed.

      To me Jon is who he is Snow. He could’ve been a King, but he’ll never be a one. I hope for a better ending for him than sitting on that ugly, dusty, old chair that never brings happines to anyone.

      Daeny is more fitting to be a Queen and through her experiences she is going to develop into a good Queen. Especially in a time where Westeros would be devastated and they will need someone strong. Daeny can handle that.

      Jon would be more miserable. It’s not suited for someone like him who is so much like Ned. Northerners never does never well in the South. Jon is to the core a Northerner and that will never change or if it will and he’ll adopt name, do incest, actually rule and push for IT and so on. I will be a little bit dissapointed ,because it goes against his character. Still don’t where people get the idea that Daeny will end up rulling Westeros along with Jon. That’s so not George, but maybe I’m reading the wrong way.

      Well HOTU only indicated that Daeny would feel something positive towards Jon(no words on Jon) and we don’t know whether it is romantic love, family love or simply being friends. We can interpretate it either way. Of course some people twisted it and they will fall madly in love and others oh it’s negative and they kill each other. There are hints to Daeny as it is to Arya more or less. For me finding a middle ground between them admiring each other, caring for each other is more interesting and not the usual, standard and traditional route. Without being romantically connected, but love is a powerful theme of this series and books.

      In the books there is this line about how jon feels alone eventhough he is sleeping next to ygtite and we have dany feeling alone evenghough Daario is sleeping next to her …

      The line about Jon and Daeny feeling alone works in the books, but don’t mix it up with the show. Didn’t Ygrite asked if about sleeping with his sister? I mean some people presented it to their own way of seeing things as foreshadowing for Jon and Arya. Books make the case for Jon and Daeny and Jon with Arya too, but show is far less certain on this.

      They need them to meet them at least around end of season 7 in order to sell it and make it believeable. Still Daeny would have to deal with Euron and Cersei South. Otherwise it would be out of nowhere and quite frankly a little bit rushed in season 8 with WW around. Where and when do you think they’ll meet and they will.

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    91. Aster,

      Maybe it’s one of the multiple meanings for the title. It could be dragons and white walkers, literally Jon, R’hllor vs The Great Other you name it. I don’t think it means just one person or single thing.

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    92. I posted this on an earlier thread but I think it bears repeating:

      I visit/lurk/occasionally post at most of the sites that participated in this poll. I could have taken the poll at any of the sites, I just happened to take the poll using the WotW link. I know I’m not the only one who does this, so the differences between the sites polled may actually be smaller than what is already shown by the results.

      That being said, I think it’s cool to see the overall results of the fandom. Thanks for tabulating them up, BbF.

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    93. dragonbringer: I agree with you i don’t think anyone is going to ride a dragon othee than dany

      I am pretty sure that GRRM already has confirmed that others will ride dragons.

      David H: Surely, a spinoff would be nice! But I don’t see it happening. Especially not an expensive one based on wars.

      The other problem is the classic prequel problem: the basic plot was not designed around a story, but to set up a different story. What makes these series work is that they are fundamentally character-driven stories: and character-driven stories demand identity crises with some suspense about what direction an individual or set of individuals will go. But we cannot have that here.

      Ultimately, I think that the spinoff problem is one you nail: it’s just really rare that one can work.

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    94. It’s not a huge deal, but in this write-up there’s no clarity about what the GNC question actually is. I had to click through to the graphs to find out what “Yes/Partially/No/Don’t Know” was in response to.

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    95. dragonbringer: I have no problem against jon being no 1 option in that poll …I can see the reasoning but the one who was unburnt in the pyre wakes dragons from the stone after hundreds of years they have been dead And the one who was called bride of fire is not even close to Jon and what more she is not even in the second place …
      If all that is not enough for being something as a symbol for fire then I don’t know what does . ..

      GRRm have spent too much time on prophecies not only in the main series but Also in dunk and egg series …to make them as just not true …..and he has spend too much time on dany and the connection of her to those prophecies simply turning out to be a red herring either …

      dany as AAR have same or equal amount of foreshadowings as of what RLJ ….is dany being AAr is obvious but so does RLJ and I dont see it ranked below …

      The prophesy about waking dragons from stone could be fulfilled by Jon. If Jon is resurrected after a sacrifice from Shireen, the prophesy would also be fulfilled. Shireen has greyscale, and we know that she will be sacrificed in the books. This type of fulfillment is something that works well with GRRM narritive. He does not necessarily write literal clues that has to be played out, he uses symbolism especially for prophesies. Prophesies are suppose to be difficult to intrepid, and people will intrepid them incorrectly. The prophesies are mainly about how they effect the characters who believe in them.
      Jon also has other clues besides prophesies such Melisandre who asks for Rhollor, but only sees Snow. And Jon dreaming about himself wielding a burning sword on top of the Wall, and fighting against the Others. There is obviously reasons why people believe that Jon is Azor Ahai.

      That being said, Dany certainly does have the most obvious clues to fulfill these prophesies. I am in agreement with the poster above who made the comparison of the Azor Ahai legend with the great flood. Every civilization in ASOIAF has their own legend and hero. We simply dont know what happened, according to the legend dragons wasn’t even around the last time. I am not sure we will ever really know who Azor Ahai is.

      ASOIAF is somewhat like the real tale behind the legends and mythology.

      Sou: You have a point; and you really are a fan, wow!
      I agree that Daenerys seems to have lost importance these past 1-2 seasons. I mean she is less “central” to the whole plot now, and Jon does seem to have taken the lead. Especially now, with what happened to him last season!
      I think this is partly because from what I gather (as I said, I put the book down too soon…) Daeny’s Meereen plot is well, not that exciting, in the books as it is in the show. I personally hoped this would get better with Tyrion there, but there’s this Dothraki twist, so let’s see what happens. I hope they surprise us (and they don’t spend too much time on Dothraki powerplay). I mean , we have the Others somewhere up north, let’s focus on them!
      The other reason Jon is favoured by the show I think may have to do with the basics: I am a woman myself and by no means wish to belittle my own sex, but let’s face it. Audiences and people in general are more confortable with heros rather than heroines. It’s the stereotype: the brave lad (and usually quite handsome lad) that saves the world with his sword or gun or superpower or whatever. Stereotypes are hard to resist and even harder to beat.

      The stronger focus on Jon is part of the story, GRRM has written the story in a similar fashion. It is not about creating TV stereotypes, it is about the arcs of the characters.

      In the last 2 or 3 books Jon is the characters with the most POV chapters. Dany has 16 POV chapters in the last 3 books and Jon has 25 POV chapters, while Tyrion has 23 and Arya has 18.

      It is part of Jon’s and the Wall’s arcs within the story. At the start of the series Jon is made to appear as if he isn’t that important. Both the books and the show concentrates more on Robb, Catelyn and the Lannisters. The war of the five kings is the main focus point. This is somewhat cleverly misleading to the readers. The readers gets to feel just like the people within Westeros. We are made to almost forget about the real threat from beyond the Wall. People therefore at the start naturally focus mostly on politics and the war.

      But as the story continues the North and the Wall slowly becomes more and more important. Jon’s arc are also at times a bit similar to Sansa’s arc in a way. Their characters are slow burners, it takes their characters a while to receive some measure of autonomy.
      Dany reaches a leadership position within the first season, Tyrion also reaches a leadership position quickly, but it takes Jon a few seasons to reach a leadership position. At the moment Jon’s story arc is just at a naturally more pertinent stage. Jon’s story builds momentum as the story of the real threat becomes more important. Once Dany reaches Westeros for example, it would create a stage of more momentum in her story.

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    96. R M: It’s not a huge deal, but in this write-up there’s no clarity about what the GNC question actually is.

      heh, that in itself probably speaks volumes about the idea!

      In another thread, I was debating with some others about the merit of readers using his/her own imaginations when reading fiction. This represents a good example of why I think one should turn off his/her imagination and simply try to absorb what the author is presenting from his/her imagination. It seems that most of the “support” for this idea comes from what readers imagine is happening inside the heads of tertiary characters. However, there is next to no textual support for the idea that there is any real unified response/reaction among the northerners. If GRRM means for this to be here, then it should be through solid indications: he should not be relying on us to fill in blanks with our imaginations because 10 different people will fill in the same blank in 10 different ways. Besides, imagining is his job, not ours!

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    97. Sean C.: That’s a pretty narrow definition of what would make a story

      Yes, so narrow that it only includes 99% of the stories written/televised/filmed today! Seriously, can you name a story that is not described by this extremely general idea?

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    98. Boudica,

      The problem here is dany also woke as a dragon from stone before waking dragons from the stones ….so its not all that literal…
      What the text says is that AAR needs to wake dragons from stone not waken from a stone….thats a clear difference which makes Mel as AAr and jon as a stone dragon ..and what’s the connection between shireen and jon or how does one explain how jon is born out of stone shireen …and if shireen did indeed will be sacrificed for jon then I don’t know why they have changed them in the show …the dream he has his after hearing about the prophecy from Mel unlike dany having a dream fighting others on top of a dragon ….Jon doesn’t appear in the visions of Mel until she specifically asks for who she thought as jon sister …you know what actually appears when she is asking for AAr …she sees winged shadows which is what drogon is called and a clear blue sky of meereen on the day of great games …

      Prophecy has been misinterpreted by rhaegar and Mel ….there is a pretender and red herring who is going to die soon ….we are nearing the final act of the series and dany is revealed as the AAr for the final act ….
      Like i said I can get along with both jon and dany as AAr but iam yet to see anything convincing of jon fulfilling them And there is too much mentions of dany as AAr and as one of the main characters I don’t think her goinh to be a red herring

      Wimsey,

      As far as I know he said third head need not be a targ for a question that assumed that three heads are three riders ….

      Sou,
      Iam glad for this small rise ..

      Geralt of Rivia,

      Iam eager to see how its going to be in the show ….if they are going to end up together in the books the show will do that too …
      I. Believe in dany dying in the battle along with her dragons….she will relaise that she can never get her house with red door …
      And jon will end up being a king .
      Or dany survive and jon dies or both jon and dany alive and must be taking the tools to build the realm …
      I guess we have to wait and see …we will be having a clear idea once this season ends I think …

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    99. Geralt of Rivia:
      Aster,

      Maybe it’s one of the multiple meanings for the title. It could be dragons and white walkers, literally Jon, R’hllor vs The Great Other you name it. I don’t think it means just one person or single thing.

      I’m pretty sure it refers to eating a jalapeño (fire), then drinking some water to quench the heat (ice), then making a high-pitched “hyeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!” (song), when it doesn’t work. Yep. I think that’s what GRRM is alluding to.

      …I think I need the next season or book ASAP. Sigh.

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    100. Wimsey

      Jon/White Walkers would tie in with the end story. My thoughts are that Jon’s dilemma could be more personal. For the north to be most effective against the threat he needs to take charge as miltary leader but how does that impact on his younger siblings – Sansa, Bran and Rickon – if he becomes the dominant Stark. He most likely needs to use the authority associated with the Starks.

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    101. Geralt of Rivia: Daeny is more fitting to be a Queen and through her experiences she is going to develop into a good Queen. Especially in a time where Westeros would be devastated and they will need someone strong. Daeny can handle that.

      Jon would be more miserable. It’s not suited for someone like him who is so much like Ned. Northerners never does never well in the South. Jon is to the core a Northerner and that will never change or if it will and he’ll adopt name, do incest, actually rule and push for IT and so on. I will be a little bit dissapointed ,because it goes against his character. Still don’t where people get the idea that Daeny will end up rulling Westeros along with Jon. That’s so not George, but maybe I’m reading the wrong way.

      Well HOTU only indicated that Daeny would feel something positive towards Jon(no words on Jon) and we don’t know whether it is romantic love, family love or simply being friends. We can interpretate it either way. Of course some people twisted it and they will fall madly in love and others oh it’s negative and they kill each other. There are hints to Daeny as it is to Arya more or less. For me finding a middle ground between them admiring each other, caring for each other is more interesting and not the usual, standard and traditional route. Without being romantically connected, but love is a powerful theme of this series and books.

      In the books there is this line about how jon feels alone eventhough he is sleeping next to ygtite and we have dany feeling alone evenghough Daario is sleeping next to her …

      The line about Jon and Daeny feeling alone works in the books, but don’t mix it up with the show. Didn’t Ygrite asked if about sleeping with his sister? I mean some people presented it to their own way of seeing things as foreshadowing for Jon and Arya. Books make the case for Jon and Daeny and Jon with Arya too, but show is far less certain on this.

      They need them to meet them at least around end of season 7 in order to sell it and make it believeable. Still Daeny would have to deal with Euron and Cersei South. Otherwise it would be out of nowhere and quite frankly a little bit rushed in season 8 with WW around. Where and when do you think they’ll meet and they will.

      It is very interesting to try and speculate where the characters could end up. Wherever they end up we know it has to be bittersweet. I think there is a big difference to becoming a King or a Queen and having a happy ending. We naturally tend to equate becoming the King or the Queen as some kind of a happy ending. Of course in ASOIAF this is not really the case.

      It seems like we should have some clues about the future of the main characters, in some type of foreshadowing or in the natural progression of their arcs. It often seems like many of the characters will end up dead, but then on the other hand their experiences must be preparing them for something.

      The experience they are gathering is something that really makes me wonder about Dany and Jon specifically. We literally spend hundreds of pages on them where they are learning and struggling to rule.
      There must be a reason for it, and perhaps it is their training ground for the end of the story, and perhaps it is the same with Tyrion.

      To me it almost appears as if they might be training or learning for different parts of leadership. They each have their own set of skills and disadvantages.

      Tyrion is good with politics and playing politics in the South. But he is more of a character behind the throne such as Varys. People will not follow Tyrion naturally, but he is good when power is given to him, such as when Tywin give him the power as the hand of the King. Tyrion is intelligent in many ways, thus he is a very good hand of the King.
      Dany is a conqueror, and people really follow her. She has a very strong sense of justice. She can really effect change, and that is not an easy thing to do. People really follow Dany.
      But I do think Jon would actually make the best King, he is more of the negotiator. He generally did things that good rulers have tended to do throughout history. He started building projects, he organised food for the winter, and was thinking about future projects such as more glass gardens. He sharpen up the training in the Nights Watch.
      More then anyone else I think Jon is the type who would sit around and do the boring daily part of the work. Of course he is from the North and he isn’t good with Southern politics, and expressing himself. But Westeros will be almost completely destroyed after all of these wars, you needs someone who would really take the time and who would really try to rebuild. Jon is really the only one who has done some rebuilding, up until this stage of the story of course.
      I dont really think anyone in this story is a perfect ruler. But when you look at their the training and the experience these characters have gathered so far, then their different characteristics could really compliment each other, if they could somehow rule together.

      But that being said I dont think this would necessarily mean a happy ending for them. As rightly pointed out, Jon would very likely be half miserable as King. He is the type like Ned who would always make things to much of his own responsibility.
      I honestly believe that the happiest ending for someone like Jon would be a hold fast in the North, being married to someone like Val and getting a few children.
      And truly Dany might not be very different in this sense. She is always thinking back to simpler times, and to the house with the red door. She was also happy with Drogo and the Dorthraki. But she also believes that she is the rightful heir of Westeros and she has grown up thinking of her family in that position, and thus she wants the throne.

      But then again on the other hand if Jon is just plainly resurrected in a similar fashion to Berric Donnarion then he would have to die again at some stage. I dont think the undead characters are meant to stay alive. I could also see Jon doing a Cregan Stark, taking on a position of power, setting things right and then leaving that position again.

      Anyways it is difficult to say what will happen with these characters I do think Dany and Jon will be in opposition at the start. If Jon and a Stark (either Sansa or Rickon) are in control of the North again, then they will be in opposition against each other. We will have to see what happens when they eventually meet. Of course it is very interesting that Jon and Sansa will meet up again in the show this season. For the story to be bittersweet it does not necessarily mean that everyone has to die. It could just mean that they have to take on political marriages that they dont necessarily want, and become rulers and take on responsibilities that would not necessarily make them happy.

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    102. Wimsey:
      In another thread, I was debating with some others about the merit of readers using his/her own imaginations when reading fiction. This represents a good example of why I think one should turn off his/her imagination and simply try to absorb what the author is presenting from his/her imagination.

      There’s a big difference between imagining scenes as we read them and making up entirely new plots and fan fiction, although I don’t find anything necessarily wrong even with that as long as the reader is able to separate what the author wrote from what she imagined.

      Here’s a portion of an abstract from a scholarly research article on the benefits of using imagination to remember what is read:

      The spontaneous use of imagery and its relationship to free verbal recall were investigated. Community college students read a 2,100-word story under one of three sets of instructions and then recalled the story and reported their images immediately and 48 hours later. … Whereas total verbal recall declined over the retention interval (i.e., forgetting), imagery did not. … This study contributes to a series of studies using various texts and methodologies that suggest that imagery is a distinctive aspect of reading, viable for study in its own right.

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    103. Wimsey: We can pretty much bet that Jon is going to be in a position where he has to choose one dishonor or another,

      Jon has already been in this position (i.e. caught between love and honor)– when he chose abandoning Ygritte in favor of remaining loyal to the Night’s Watch. I think all of the main characters end up in this position eventually. e.g. Dany, Jaime, and soon Brienne…

      Wimsey: if Tywin had even suspected that, then he would have killed Tyrion

      Tyrion was born a Lannister– to Joanna Lannister (herself a member of house Lannister, even before marrying Tywin). Tywin would never overtly kill another Lannister. But, he has deliberately put Tyrion in harm’s way many times over the years, hoping Tyrion would be taken out for him, without implicating himself in that ignominious deed. He likes to keep his hands, and reputation, ‘clean.’

      Wimsey: Tyrion is a much more empathetic character than either of his siblings, and Tyrion is much more apt to look for a mutually agreeable solution and/or to think of third parties

      Granted, ‘show Tyrion,’ as interpreted by D&D’s script and Peter Dinklage, is more empathetic. However, ‘book Tyrion’ is remarkably callous, and no hero– his main motivation is self-preservation and self-interest. His most unpleasant characteristic is how much enjoyment he derives from planning and executing his vindictive schemes. He demonstrated a singular lack of empathy in the casual way he eliminated the singer who posed a remote threat to him, and engaged in flippant witticisms afterwards, smugly congratulating himself on his cleverness (‘singer’s soup,’ etc). I don’t see Tyrion ever sacrificing or compromising himself for anyone, although he feels entitled to the ultimate loyalty from others (Bronn’s question, ‘when have you ever risked your life for me?’). In contrast, I would not be surprised if Cersei went out in a blaze of glory in a last-ditch attempt to save one of her children, whom I do believe she is devoted to. And, Jaime is definitely going to die for some noble cause, ‘the things I do for love’…(and his legacy in ‘the white book’). Tyrion, despite his appetites, has a far ‘colder,’ more dispassionate outlook on life than his siblings.

      Also, the ability to take alternative perspectives and negotiate with third parties does not necessarily depend on empathy. It depends primarily on the ability to pre-empt the cares, desires, and moves of others, in order to better manipulate the outcome, which can be accomplished with or without empathy (Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, and Roose Bolton are all quite shrewd in this regard, without being in the least bit empathetic). ‘Knowing’ how other people feel (and therefore anticipating how they are likely to react) is not equivalent to ‘caring’ about how they feel.

      Finally, regarding temperament, modern personality theories estimate equal genetic and environmental contributions. I agree, it’s difficult to unravel, but studies of twins raised under separate circumstances are quite suggestive. Not all behavior/temperament is produced by observation and practice; some of it is innate, even inevitable. Tyrion is not intelligent because he is a dwarf (although he is learned because he reads). Jon is not kind only because he has had the experience of being a bastard (or Ramsay would be a most considerate honey). Arya was brought up to be a ‘lady,’ yet on account of the ‘wolf’s blood,’ something we’re told she shares with Brandon and Lyanna, she goes in a different direction to all that early training.

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    104. Boudica,

      See I’d focus on Ned ( as you said) as he’d provide a more reasoned view on what happened between Robert, Rhaegar and Lyanna, Jaime, being in the KG you’d get to see how he was knighted and the awe in which he held them but also how their honour prevented them from doing the “right” thing plus you’d get first hand experience of Arys descent into madness until his demise and obviously you’d have to have Rheagar, Robert and Lyanna as main characters. The rest would be secondary I feel. Stannis would be interesting to check in on to show his brotehr’s poor attitude towards him and how dutiful he was but being isolated on an island, I don’t think he’s need that much screen time. Jon Arryn would be interesting as the mentor to Ned and Robert plus obviously Rickard and Brandon Stark and Arthur Dayne , Gerard Hightower, etc as well as Elia, Howland, Benjen, The Tulley household, Varys, The Mountain ,etc ,etc .
      I think that the ending being kind of known won’t matter if it is executed well. All about the journey and not the destination as they say! For a season I think it would stand up very well and if nothing else would draw because of the familiar characters and curiosity. It’ll make money however good or bad it is. I Think it’ll happen let’s just hope they maintain the quality.

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    105. dragonbringer,

      Not sure if this will be any clearer after this season. Daeny can finally set sail for Westeros or towards the end of the season. I guess there is a relatively a big chance for one of them to die at the end in soke epic fashion.

      It’s hard for me to imagine for them to rebuild Westeros, having kids and rule. Maybe I lack imagination, but that’s not really a bittersweet ending or is it? It might be in case that no one of them wanted his, but Daeny do want this on the show.
      She wants that throne and talking specifically about it so far. It’s her right etc. Emilia certainly wants Dany on the Iron Throne. Of course she also wants a family and place she can call home. She can’t have it all.

      you snow nothing,

      I’m pretty sure it refers to eating a jalapeño (fire), then drinking some water to quench the heat (ice), then making a high-pitched “hyeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!” (song), when it doesn’t work. Yep. I think that’s what GRRM is alluding to.

      You might be onto something here.

      …I think I need the next season or book ASAP. Sigh.

      You’re not alone on this. 😉

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    106. dragonbringer:

      I have no problem against jon being no 1 option in that poll …I can see the reasoning but the one who was unburnt in the pyre wakes dragons from the stone after hundreds of years they have been dead And the one who was called bride of fire is not even close to Jon and what more she is not even in the second place …

      Waking dragons from stone reminds me of Robin Hobb’s Farseer trilogy, where Fitz (a crowned prince’s bastard turned assassin who can merge his mind with that of his pet wolf, Nighteyes, and actually came back from the dead that way – sound familiar?) wipes blood on stone dragon statues to bring these dragons back to life in order to save the realm against the threat of the Red-Ship Raiders. I’m not saying that’s how it’ll go down for Jon Snow, but I thought others might appreciate the similarities.

      Robin Hobb is awesome, BTW. She’s probably a bit more YA than George, but I like good YA. And I’ve fallen in love with her most recent Fitz and the Fool trilogy. I cannot wait for that third novel.

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    107. Boudica,

      Their difficulties they must overcome must be there for a reason. When you look into books it looks like George is preparing them for something, IT quite parallel. But not quite sure for what. Spealking of show it seems to me they try to prepare them for upcoming events against The Others. It might be that they end up rulling together, but if you for example would say that it would loveless marriage or simply they will rule without having a children. It do fit with bittersweet version of it. Neither of the characters just can’t have it all. Daeny wants family, home and IT. You can’t have it all. Jon wants to be a hero among other things. But when you consider LF, Euron, Faegon being Varys’ and Illyrio’s puppet and people who already sat there. Good people getting murder right, left and center.

      That people become just used to terror and bad things. They do seems rather as the ideal ending and a lot of fans expect of want his. There is pros and cons to it…the idea do seem as a happy, but Jon wouldn’t be really. It can surely go into many directions, but so far I’m sticking to not believe in them rulling together. It might be different over the course of the series and books.

      I just can’t imagine Jon pushing to be a King unless there is no other choice and duty calls for it. Other than that not really. Nice point about Cregan Stark. I never think about that.

      Jon certainly in the books seems like a good negotiator and the way he prepared Night’s Watch, loan from the Iron Bank. Show cut all this and I do understand that. There is simply not enough for this. But then again showJon seems more of a soldier, general type of figure.

      Daeny is a conqurer and I do think she would make a good Queen. Of course this can’t happen like that, but with Tyrion being there at her side knowing as you said all the tricks in politics. He can help and in fact I think that’s his biggest purpose. Something tells me that Tyrion will much more needed for Westeros after the war than for the war itself.

      Bittersweet ending doesn’t mean massacre, but some people do epect that thanks to what happned befoe in the show or in the books. Jon and Sansa could be really interesting dynamic. Add LF into that and we have a good mix explosion.

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    108. Ginevra: There’s a big difference between imagining scenes as we read them and making up entirely new plots and fan fiction, although I don’t find anything necessarily wrong even with that as long as the reader is able to separate what the author wrote from what she imagined.

      I was the one who was arguing with him, but yes, to this quote. I can’t seem to get that through Wimsey or maybe he just chooses to misrepresent my side.

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    109. dragonbringer,

      “Tell me something how its different from what jon did to Janos slynt”

      How is it different?
      Jon=newly elected Lord commander-against the wishes of some of the men including Slynt and Thorne who had treated him with disdain in the past. Dany=Had the respect of the young man in question, of whom he and his people had already accepted as Queen. Jon=gave one of his first orders and was refused and basically told to F off, in front of the other men on top of it. Dany=dealing with a short-sighted albeit well-meaning and immediately apologetic subject. Jon=had no choice but to do it if he wanted to retain the authority and respect due him while serving as LC. Dany=Went against the cries of her people to show mercy, and probably her own conscience as well. Remember Tyrion’s words: ‘A ruler who kills those devoted to her is not a ruler who inspires devotion

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    110. Drugstores shampoo is crap. I try to save many from using the salon brands for years and I try 8 different types from Dove, Pantene, Clairol, to Treseme , Aussie etc. But either they make hair and scalp feel dry or make it not clean enough and get limp one day later. Also they reformulate my stand-by Biolage conditioning balm and now it’s not as effective. I’m also coming down with flu hence why I feel like making random complaint. Wahhh. If only new season here to make a little happier right now.

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    111. Ygritte

      So its perfectly OK when you kill a guy who is against you and disobeyed the command ….
      But its not OK to kill a person when he breaks the law and murdered a person who is awaiting a trial …its alright if he is apologetic right. ….

      Janos slynt almost wet his pants and begged for his life too…why didn’t jon stop …atleasr the guy accepted his fate in the dany scene

      In fact I would say that this what makes dany more interesting complex than jon ….

      Who do you think had more conflict and struggle to carry out the order ….jon or dany ….as you said jon is swinging the sword against someone he despises and who despises him ….whereas dany is handing out the sentence for breaking the rule and killing a prisoner someone she liked and trusted and one of her followers and small council member ..there Is a reason why the camera focused on dany the whole time ….you can see how hard it is for to take the decision …that’s what happens when you rule ..you have to make the hard choices ….the harpy guy who was killed also her people she is queen to them as well ….and she has to send the message as well no one should break the law. .

      If she killed the SOTH ….oh she doesn’t give him any trial …she will become like her father …

      Dany : OK I will give him trial …
      But the prisoner get killed by one of his council members …
      And when that member is sentenced to death …
      People cry foul
      Leave him be

      People will again criticize ….it doesn’t matter which way she goes or does things …there will always be criticism …damned if you do damned if you don’t .

      We get to see the whole dilemma about this situation in the scene where the guy and dany speak and where Robb and cat and talisa speaking ..

      Call that action stupid but that was what Ned would have done what RObb did but the action was justified particularly when there where people are killed for just not obeying the lords command …if you are going to criticize one please do the other also

      Glad you mentioned tyrion quote :
      Last season around this time people were saying how tyrion will talk sense into her about taking jorah back in her circle ….
      Then what happened in the show… tyrion himself said jorah can’t be with dany …

      She doesn’t kill him for being a devoted to him but for breaking the law and killing a prisoner ….similarly jorah was betrayer whom she banished not killed If you remember…As a Queen she needs to send a message if she let those whoever devoted to her free then she is not doing any good …she has to punish those who did wrongs even close to her ….

      Jorah’s banishment is another good example of damned if you do and damned if you don’t ….if she let him be in her service she would have been criticized and so did when she banished him …

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    112. Turncloak,

      It’s a misdirect. We’re meant to think Tyrion is the Targaryan because he’s never been considered a “true” Lannister…but what if he was the ONLY true Lannister? What if the son Tywin is most proud of…isn’t his son at all?

      Would explain the incest! And would also make this exchange hilarious:
      Jaime: The Targaryans married brother and sister all the time and no one batted an eye-
      Cersei: Well WE are NOT Targaryans!

      After all, if we’re assuming Aerys had his way with Tywin’s wife on their wedding night, wouldn’t it make more sense if it turned it was the OLDER siblings?

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    113. dragonbringer,

      Tyrion tells Dany of Ser Jorah that he’s a changed man, that he worships her and is probably in love with her and then acknowledges the betrayal she feels for his transgression of not telling her the truth of his original intent and Dany’s response is “So I should kill him.” Tyrion at that point tells her that “A ruler who kills those devoted to her is not a ruler who inspires devotion.” This, to me, was showing us that at this point her judgments are perhaps not very sound so she needs a competent advisor to teach her. And the first lesson seems to be that just because she is “Queen” does not mean she has to be so rigid as to never show mercy or pardoning and simply”Off with their head” which is the path she could be going down, thinking it’s the only thing that will allow her to keep hold of her power. That is a tyrant in the making tbh. It’s like with Karstark killing those boys. His lust for revenge overruled the wishes of his new King and Robb couldn’t let it go unpunished but even his wife and mother knew it was a mistake to serve death sentence on the patriarch of such a close ally. He didn’t listen to his “advisers” then and also with marrying Talisa and look where that got him. These 2 story lines showed how young rulers need older, wiser mentors to guide them onto the right path. And as a parallel Jon had Aemon, and did follow his advice….but where did that get him? Well Okay…dead lol. But time will tell the big picture.

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    114. Boudica,

      Imo a bittersweet ending can also mean that a character gets, in the end, exactly what they have struggled for and discover that the accomplished goal fails to bring them happiness.

        Quote  Reply

    115. Summer Child,

      I enjoyed your analysis, kudos!
      I have always imagined that Cersei will die by Jaime’s hand, but I think your solutions are more interesting: Cersei, the ultimate shrew, dying to save the last of her children and Jaime giving a completely different meaning to his infamous line in the first episode: “The things I do for love”.

        Quote  Reply

    116. YgritTe,

      Refreshing new topic! I myself use Schwartzkopf shampoo and and hair colour (Syoss) and I’m happy with them, they are deffinitely worth a try. I guess you can have German brands in the States.
      Get well soon!

        Quote  Reply

    117. YgritTe,

      And she never did kill him when she came to know of his betrayal but showed mercy and banished him …

      You know how the conversation starts ….its starts with dany asking tyrion what to do with jorh because she has promised she will kill him if he returned…why should people trust the queen who can’t keep her promises …

      She asks for tyrion what to do …and he tells that he is in love with you but still guilty of not telling until he was forced to do

      And then she ask him so should he be killed …

      For that tyrion answers that quote …

      If you take that scene its clear dany is testing tyrion and tyrion testing dany. …whether she is worthy of advising and whether he is worth as an advisor …

      and you can see again in her eyes the pain that jorah betrayal done….and how the girl in her wants to keep him near to her but the queen in her can’t keep him ….which is exactly what tyrion says …

      You know what’s the first thing she thinks when she actually banishes jorah ….that he finds his way back home and be happy …

      And she had shown mercy to yunkai and left them unhurt and to the harpy. …
      She pardoned ser barristan mainly because he was man enough to admit his crime and plead for mercy which jorah was arrogant not to do …
      She didn’t just ” off the head ” of the guy that captured …listened to the advice of barristan wanted to give him a trial…

      So you go and compare her with karstark …
      How can you make this comparison..how did you put his lust for revenge overruled wishes of his king. ..and don’t you see who matches karstark and Robb Here…the freed men who killed the harpy because of wanting to revenge and overruled the wishes of his queen

      She listened to Ser barristan and gave the harpy a trial even though he wouldn’t have said a thing …
      And look at what happened the harpy gets killed and guilty for that crime is punished which made people angry and the harpies still kill and barristan himself dies …if the harpy was killed then atleast the freed people would have been happy …

      Sometimes you have to go with your own instinct than following the others adavice ….which is exactly what Misandei told dany in the show…..in the books dany listens to all her advisors but makes the choice out of what is best out of them…

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    118. Shy Lady Dragon,

      Exactly I think even GRRm as said something along the lines when he spoke about LOtR and bittersweet ending like just because the quest is been fulfilled does not mean its an happy ending ….the characters will have to suffer through the pain and losses they have had during the quest …

      Dany constantly think she will be getting to see the beautiful westeros that viserys used to tell and hoping to find a red door on the KL ….but when she actually gets to KL and wesreteros its going to be long winter and KL would have burned down by cersei

      Geralt of Rivia,

      I think both characters have been given experience on leading and ruling and both done some building up a new world ….so I would assume its for the reason to do that job when the war is over and done ….
      I dont think it will be happy evrr after wirh them on the throne and child on their laps. …but they still can be king and queen because of their roles and People needing them to be ….but they can’t forget the wounds that the war has caused to them and bitter losses it gave them….
      I dont think we need to see a child and story will go that long ….may be if we got a prologue that says 19,years later …

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    119. dragonbringer:

      I have no problem against jon being no 1 option in that poll …I can see the reasoning but the one who was unburnt in the pyre wakes dragons from the stone after hundreds of years they have been dead And the one who was called bride of fire is not even close to Jon and what more she is not even in the second place …

      Waking dragons from stone reminds me of Robin Hobb’s Farseer trilogy, where Fitz (a crowned prince’s bastard turned assassin who can merge his mind with that of his pet wolf, Nighteyes, and actually came back from the dead that way – sound familiar?) wipes blood on stone dragon statues to bring these dragons back to life in order to save the realm against the threat of the Red-Ship Raiders. I’m not saying that’s how it’ll go down for Jon Snow, but I thought others might appreciate the similarities.

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    120. Shy Lady Dragon,

      Cool, I’ll check for that brand on-line. Maybe they have here, I never saw though. Matrix Biolage was an old stand-by because it never irritate (sensitive scalp) and smells divine but they changed formulas. Do you color yours regularly? I do the Redken semi-perm a couple times a year. You can only go darker with it though. I’d love a change but am afraid to do anything drastic because of the resulting damage just from getting highlights added years ago.

      Sorry people for going so off-topic, just ignore us for the moment 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    121. YgritTe,

      I have wavy hair, so I have never had a perm. My natural colour is dirty blonde – only my hair colour, I’m a good girl 😉 – which made me look too pale (very white skin, green eyes), so I have tried various red and brown shades since I was 32. I colour my hair every month (a must when you turn grey), now I use a chesnut shade that looks rather natural (Pink is a great singer, but it wouldn’t suit me to try to look like her; even Pink is a blonde now).
      Another good shampoo and hair colour is L’Oreal, I think you can find this one.

        Quote  Reply

    122. Shy Lady Dragon,

      Chestnut is very pretty, especially with green eyes! I’m the same as you but with medium ash brown hair so if I go darker I need to use bronzer to avoid looking like that vampire chick, what’s her name? ….Elvira haha. But lighter tends to wash me out as well. But no, no perms. Just semi-permanent dye. Love wavy hair. All the trend till recently for years was the stick straight flat-ironed styles, which can be nice but as one gets older it’s better I think to have some texture. I do have a few grays coming in at the roots but I just ignore them, for now 🙂 Soon, I will have to color and I like the Chestnut idea. It can be describes as a “cool” shade right?

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    123. dragonbringer,

      We’re talking about the end of it, but most important is the their journey throught the series and books.

      To the subject. Maybe partially. Series and books deal with Daeny’s struggle as a queen, but with Jon not so much. He was a commander, but he was more of a soldier, leader than doing King’s work like in the books. Arranging loan from Iron Bank, manning castles, dealing with food and so. If he becomes King in the books it would make sense in a way, but not in the show. Which Boudica rightfully mentioned. I guess, I just like Jon too much to sit there and be even more miserable adopting a Targaryen name just like people want him. Jon Targaryen or Stargaryen. For the record I don’t want him to be a Stark either.

      He is who is is Jon Snow a bastard and forever condemned to be silent guy in the shadows or how is that passage in the first book. I just can’t see any reason why would he go for IT and especially if Daeny is alive as a competent ruler with Tyrion as Hand of the Queen. Daeny can plead for him to join her as a family, but like I said is she is alive, he hates politics and virtually has no interest in rulling and IT to do that. It would go against his character just too much.

      Happy ending it is straight thanks to other options out there such as LF, Fagon with Varys and Illyrio behind him, Euron and others. When you consider this and that. It looks like it.

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    124. Geralt of Rivia,

      Well they did not seem to focus on what dany did like jon arranging trade from lamb people….training nights and dealing with the food and agriculture…

      Well thats not fair ….I don’t want dany end up on the miserable role either ….but it’s who she is

      Why does gods make kings and queens if not to protect those who cant themselves …

      A Queen does not belong to herself but to her people ….

      These two thoughts is what drives dany and it shows how much she cares about the common people..

      But I think there is more probablity of her dying …she does have many parallel to Moses …

      If i have my way after all the war is done i think she would just go to dothraki sea with the dragons and live the rest of life there flying fishing and a simple life …

      I guess we can agree on that part those characters will be glad that they are dead. …I just wish LF and Varys and maesters gets to know about how their actions have made westeros weak to go against WW ..

      Everytime I hear Robert saying there is a war coming Ned I don’t know who will be fighting I get chills….just wish Robert and Ned were there for the battle of dawn….may be robb too…now i think iam going to far with my fantasy

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    125. I think Tyrion is Aerys’ bastard.

      Yes, he’s Tywin’s son, through and through. People saying that Tyrion being a bastard means he can’t be like Tywin are essentially insulting every adoptive family in existence. Yes, genetics may have something to do with some of the behavioral traits but environment has a lot to do with it as well. And also how Tywin reacted to Tyrion. His emotional rejection of Tyrion had the unintended consequence of Tyrion striving to be like him, and Tyrion’s dwarfism led to him more intellectual pursuits than his siblings. And if there are some “Tywin smarts genes” maybe Tyrion got them from his mom who after all shared at least 1/8 of her genes with Tywin…

      Another common complaint is the “too many Targs” question. The thing is, Tyrion is not a Targaryen, though Aerys blood may provide the magic he will need to mount a dragon. He’s a Hill. Jon and Tyrion are in opposite situations, not the same. Jon for all his life thinks he’s a Bastard, but in reality he’s the true born son of a prince and a Lady, and if it can be proven, perhaps legitimate heir to the Iron Throne. Tyrion on the other hand for all his life has thought he is Trueborn son of a high Lord, and once Jaime joined the KG, he has believed himself to be the rightful heir to Casterley Rock (and so he was by all the laws of gods and men, at least prior to his assassination of his father). Yet, it turns out he’s nothing but an King’s bastard, and probably born from rape. He’s the monster Tywin always said he was. And as for Aegon, he’s probably a Blackfyre being passed off as a mainline Targ, so it’s yet another different situation.

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    126. dragonbringer,

      I also miss Ned and Robert and their great friendship. That’s part of the reason I’d like to see a prequel: I want to see Ned appreciated for what he does and Robert as the fierce warrior he once was. The other reason for my wish for a prequel is to see Rhaegar and Lyanna.

        Quote  Reply

    127. Shadow Shifter,

      I’m not sure that is about getting through to someone. I think it’s the fact that some read fiction differently than others and probably cannot relate to how we read. Many readers cannot or will not use their imagination for reading fiction. If (for example) the author describes a room, for them it’s just words on a page. Many times they skip descriptions altogether. It depends how visual you are or how you employ your senses.

      The study Ginevra posted is one in hundreds about this subject. One of the benefits of reading fiction and imagining the world you read is better brain connectivity all around! Not only memory. So kudos to those who can and will do the effort of using their own imagination when reading fiction.

      And then there is the other side, where authors leave out descriptions where they can, so we can fill in with our imagination the world their story is taking place in. Jean Paul Sartre IIRC was one of those who said they EXPECT us to imagine how things or certain events happen LOL . He seemed perfectly ok with the risk of getting 10MM version of the same event. Goes against what Wimsey is advocating but no one is perfect :p

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    128. Shy Lady Dragon,

      Add me to those list as well …we will be getting lyanna …I pray we get a glimpse of rhaegar too in the coming season…maybe a vision where dany sees rhaegar and harry lyod as viserys…is it too much to ask for

      other things i Also like to see in a prequel is dunk and egg and aemon and bloodraven in their prime similar to robert baratheon in his prime ….and the battle between daemon and aemond on the gods eye ….

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    129. Shadow Shifter: I was the one who was arguing with him, but yes, to this quote. I can’t seem to get that through Wimsey or maybe he just chooses to misrepresent my side.

      I was arguing with him, as well. I remember saying something along the lines of “if art doesn’t engage the imagination, what’s the point.” I had hoped, perhaps, it would be a fruitful discussion, but as usual, he started in with his…I don’t even know what to call it…and when he started trying to tell me what my professors said to me in school, I realized it was pointless to continue.

      Shy Lady Dragon:
      Boudica,

      Imo a bittersweet ending can also mean that a character gets, in the end, exactly what they have struggled for and discover that the accomplished goal fails to bring them happiness.

      I mentioned almost exactly that as what I could see as an ending for Dany. I was informed that wasn’t what GRRM meant by bittersweet. heeheehee

        Quote  Reply

    130. Boudica: The prophecy about waking dragons from stone could be fulfilled by Jon. If Jon is resurrected after a sacrifice from Shireen, the prophecy would also be fulfilled. Shireen has greyscale, and we know that she will be sacrificed in the books.

      I’d forgotten that it was this prophecy that most closely points to AA being Dany and her stone dragon eggs, whereas Mel asking to see AA and being shown only snow most closely points to Jon. I’m honestly not sure how or if Jon will literally wake dragons from stone. There is that recurring dream that Jon has where he keeps dreaming of something calling to him in the crypts of Winterfell, and some have speculated that this is where Jon will wake dragons.

      Waking dragons from stone doesn’t immediately remind me of stone eggs, though, but rather of Fitzchivalry Farseer’s adventures to the realm of the Elderlings (Robin Hobb), where he wakes dragons previously turned to stone by wiping fresh blood on what looks like dragon statues, though he can feel the life beneath him using his special, warg-like magic. Interestingly, Fitz is a bastard of the crowned prince of six duchies who mind-melds with his wolf while his body gets killed and buried and then brought back to life.

      I’ve tried to post something similar to this a dozen times, but the site hates me talking about this, for some reason!

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    131. Nymeria Warrior Queen:
      I mentioned almost exactly that as what I could see as an ending for Dany.I was informed that wasn’t what GRRM meant by bittersweet.heeheehee

      Then I shiver trying to imagine what “bittersweet” could mean. Is there any “sweet” left in it?

        Quote  Reply

    132. Ginevra,

      Right! I should watch this little video daily to keep in mind what I could expect. I watched The Piano when it was new and I don’t remember the ending, just that it felt good. But you stirred my curiosity, so I went to Wikipedia to read about the ending. I feel like watching The Piano again, it was a great movie.

        Quote  Reply

    133. Shy Lady Dragon,

      I have a love-hate relationship with dystopias in that I love their beginnings and middles and hate their ends. But I can tolerate and even enjoy tragic endings if they leave me with a sense of purpose and a sense of hope, which dystopias aren’t known for but where The Piano is a great example. So the best hope I fear we have for George is a tragic ending that still leaves us with hope and purpose: A Dream of Spring. For me, that draws up an image of hope and purpose amidst the ashes. “Tomorrow is another day.”

        Quote  Reply

    134. Ginevra,

      I very much like what you have written about dystopias. I hope that it will be like this: a meaning within tragedy and some glitter of hope could be found.
      And thank you for your reference, I’ll make use of it!

        Quote  Reply

    135. Wimsey,

      There are videos all over the web of animals adopting strays of other kinds into their litters. There’s a dog suckling her litter of pups, and in the middle is one tiny kitten; or, a crow watching over and feeding a stray kitten. Animal instinct being what it is, I don’t imagine the adopted kitten will ever bark, or it’s litter-mates will ever meow; and, the kitten will not fly. I do think they influence each other subtly, though.

      Maybe a childless Mother of Dragons will influence a motherless Tyrion. And, that’s the way he’ll become a Dragon/Targaryen without actually being one.

      Tyrion is, after all, a stray and an orphan, now. He has no Lannister gold to rely on, anymore. And with the death of Tywin, the Lannister name is not what it was. Tyrion will have to earn his own keep and make a NEW name for himself. Denaerys will give him opportunity, and the authority his father denied him. She’ll give him shelter, and through her influence, make him a dragon…of sorts.

      I suppose that’s one way he can cast a large shadow, Wimsey.

        Quote  Reply

    136. TormundsWoman,

      I get your point. All of us can read the same book and yet, we don’t always get the same thing out of it. We interpret character motivation differently. We all bring our own prejudices to the table and that would color our reaction to events in the book. That is what makes reading fiction exciting for me. But then I am not a scholar. I read because I get satisfaction out of the act of reading and using my imagination.

      Nymeria Warrior Queen: I was arguing with him, as well.I remember saying something along the lines of “if art doesn’t engage the imagination, what’s the point.”I had hoped, perhaps, it would be a fruitful discussion, but as usual, he started in with his…I don’t even know what to call it…and when he started trying to tell me what my professors said to me in school, I realized it was pointless to continue.

      Ah, I didn’t notice. I was there when the comments were only about 100+ when I came back on, it was 600+. I couldn’t bring myself to back read. lol.

        Quote  Reply

    137. dragonbringer,

      “If you take that scene its clear dany is testing tyrion and tyrion testing dany. …whether she is worthy of advising and whether he is worth as an advisor …”

      Interesting, didn’t think to look at it that way.

      Just want to add the comparison to Karstark was not in the what was done wrong on his or slave boys part, but how a seasoned ruler might deal with it compared to new one.

        Quote  Reply

    138. Shadow Shifter:
      TormundsWoman,

      I read because I get satisfaction out of the act of reading and using my imagination.

      Me too! It’s extremely rewarding for me to speculate, find clues and try to anticipate or imagine where the story might be going or who did it (if I am reading a detective or mystery book), fill in the blanks where the author left a possibility of interpretation and so forth. I was just pointing out that some who read differently might simply not be able to relate where we come from and what makes us tick (so to speak).

        Quote  Reply

    139. TormundsWoman,

      Me, too! Call am Sherlock. I make up 80 minutes of a 90-minute episode in my fucking mind palace. Seriously, I almost don’t want Martin to finish the series because that would end the theorizing. Almost.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Ygritte,

      dragonbringer,

      I was thinking on this same thing recently. Maybe the real conflict is whether the punishments are too harsh. I think they all needed punishment, but did they all need the ultimate punishment: death.

      I felt that same conflict when Ned killed the terrified Night’s Watch deserter at the very beginning of the series. He was just a boy. Did he deserve to die for being afraid? That boy ran straight for hundreds of miles. That’s raw fear. There wasn’t any devious intent in his actions.

      The former slave that Deny killed wasn’t trying to undermine Deny. He was frightened that slavery would return, and he was trying to please Mhysa. I think he deserved some kind of prison sentence, or to make restitution. But how is Deny going to ask a former slave to make restitution when she didn’t ask the same from their masters?

      Jon too has to decide if Slynt deserves to die for being afraid. Was Slynt really afraid? What was he afraid of, exactly? He helped to betray Ned, Jon’s father, and now, here he was under Ned’s son’s authority! That’s a very good reason to be frightened! But is that then a good reason to be insubordinate? Was Slynt just stupid, then? Jon was already sending him far away. He would have been out of Ned’s son’s immediate reach. He should have realized his good fortune, and gone gladly.

      So, Slynt is more than just afraid. He’s stupid, malicious, disloyal and a corrupting shit-disturber… I say he almost certainly had to die.

        Quote  Reply

    141. dragonbringer,

      ….The one thing that holds true is that people need to feel they’ve received Justice. They need to feel that authority figures take their pain seriously.

      I think Robb was partly showing off for his new wife. She was the one who treated the boy’s wounds. Rob was posturing for her by punishing their killer.

      Killing those boys was a terrible thing, but here was a father(Karstark) sick with grief over loss of his sons. King Robb had a duty to address this man’s grief. …while Cat completely disregarded it. This is what pushed Karstark over the edge. Why didn’t Robb behead his mother for her treason? ‘Cause love is the death of duty.

      Love is the death of duty, right? Or, as Walder Frey might tell Robb, lust is the death of duty.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Rygritte,

      Heh.. I’m ride or die with the show for the time being. I’ve read most of the books, though. They offer a different kind of enjoyment, while the show keeps it tight.

        Quote  Reply

    143. I never realized why people think that Coldhands is Benjen. It’s been confirmed by GRRM himself that he’s not.

      Also the CotF said that Coldhands has been dead for a long time. Benjen had been missing for little more than a year. That’s hardly a long amount of time for a CotF.

        Quote  Reply

    144. dee,

      Song, has a variety of different meanings.
      An actual lyrical song.
      Poetry.
      A song can also be what some birds/animals use to point out their territory and/or to state an attraction.
      Also, it can mean like a tall tale of sorts.
      Something Cheap.
      Something performed well.
      Something ill explained.

      Also, I would like to point out…Nature vs. Nurture.
      Jon is not Ned Starks son, even so Jon distributes most, if not all, of Ned’s honorable personality. = Nurture.
      As, for Tywin and Tyrian…This could be either Nature or Nurture.
      And if GRRM decides Tyrian is a Targ, well, it is his story to tell however he see’s fit.

        Quote  Reply

    145. Shy Lady Dragon,

      Thank you for the nice feedback! I don’t know if Cersei will die by Jaime’s hand directly, but he will certainly be implicated, or at least present at her death, or she at his. That’s part of their twin destiny.

      He is still my number one valonqar!

      Cynical Jaime is a sucker for love. He loves Cersei more than she loves him. He loves Tyrion more than Tyrion loves him. There’s only one person who loves Jaime with the fierce innocence and fearless devotion he craves– and that’s Brienne. She is going to play a painful part in all of this.

        Quote  Reply

    146. Dani,

      GRRM uses both ‘song’ and ‘dance’ as metaphors for love as well as war, e.g. ‘the singing of swords,’ the ‘dance of dragons.’

      RE: nature vs. nurture– it’s interesting how polarized and invested people are in the Tyrion paternity issue! The discussion gets quite heated as people discuss the ‘evidence’ back and forth. Literary theory is not science. When it comes to fiction, one reader’s ‘irony’ is another’s ‘cheesy’… As you point out, arguments can be constructed for both positions, and, ultimately, the author will arbitrarily decide the issue (or not), based on his own aesthetic predilections. It’s a case of confirmation bias. Depending on ones inclination, one then ‘finds’ the ‘evidence’ favoring ones preferred position, while downplaying any information to the contrary.

        Quote  Reply

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