A Song of Ice and Fire Theory Poll 2015: Part 2!

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Editor’s note: As promised last week, here is the second part in a multi-site project undertaken by BryndenBFish. Enjoy, and welcome our guest writer to the Wall! – Sue the Fury

Hello, again Watchers on the Wall! Thank you all so much for your responses for part 1 of ASOIAF Theory Poll! As of this writing, you all have provided 2,941 responses. Thank you! If you didn’t get a chance to vote for part 1, the poll is still open!

As stated previously, this year, I am doing a 5-site cross survey of the A Song of Ice and Fire fandom surveying the following fandoms:

My intent in polling these various fandoms is to find congruence and disparity among the many A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones fandoms. The data will then be analyzed to look at trends, variance and congruence on the various fan-theories on A Song of Ice and Fire.

A word of warning: This survey is intended for those who have read all 5 published books in George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire series as well as the Dunk and Egg novellas, the Princess and the Queen and The Rogue Prince, The World of Ice and Fire and finally The Winds of Winter sample chapters. If you’re not comfortable with this, no harm, no foul if you choose not to participate in the survey. However, if you’re comfortable with these parameters, then this survey’s for you. For that matter, none of the questions presented are mandatory – meaning you can skip questions if you’re completely unfamiliar with the theory.

If you want to know more about the theories presented in the survey or see ideas that you’d like to be refreshed on, I’ve created several theory resources to provide information and fan-defenses of the theories on Reddit:

For your enjoyment- last year’s results:

This will be the second and final survey coming your way. Today’s survey is on plot points, ASOIAF History and the future of ASOIAF! I split up the survey as the number of theories I was trying to put together was rather daunting, and I figured that I (and hopefully by extension: you) enjoy a smaller survey split by topic.

All good? Alright, here’s Part 2 of your survey, Watchers on the Wall! Tell me what you think!

BryndenBFish is the creator of the Wars and Politics of Ice and Fire Blog a blog and podcast dedicated to political and military analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire. He can be found at twitter as @BryndenBFish.

128 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. Awesome thanks for doing it. Interesting reading, although I think practically every one of them that postulates someone is not who people think they are, is probably wrong.

      In particular this made me laugh out loud:

      “Theory that Roose Bolton is an immortal vampire who is using Other magic to change his face.”

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    2. Only one of the historical ones had a “it won’t matter in the story.” For the other ones I went for “No opinion”, but I think they are one and the same. As for the theories that may actually matter in the story, there weren’t many surprises. Though I’m curious whether people have changed their minds about Stannis’ odds at Winterfell (and about the veracity of the Pink Letter, consequently) now that he’s been defeated and executed on the show. I certainly have changed my mind —I doubt Stannis will survive past the first third or at most half of TWOW. He will probably win the battle in the snow against the Freys, but I very much doubt he will take Winterfell.

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    3. Luka Nieto,

      Most will do it.

      Some will cling and scream and deny everything just because they don’t like at what it points.

      I doubt Stannis will survive past the first third or at most half of TWOW. He will probably win the battle in the snow against the Freys, but I very much doubt he will take Winterfell.

      That’s where that lake theory is most likely true.
      He will defeat the Frey but the Boltons will finish him off.

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    4. Like I mentioned in the last poll, I would have liked to see “three heads has the dragon” as a specific question. Since the heads aren’t necessarily dragonriders, and some fans think that there’s a single person with three heads (either Jon or Dany) who is the three headed dragon.

      e.g.
      “three heads has the dragon” – which three entities comprise the three headed dragon from Dany’s prophecy in the house of the undying?

      1. Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion
      2. Daenerys, Jon, and Bran
      3. Jon, Sansa, and Arya
      4. Daenerys alone (her 3 aspects e.g. Khaleesi, Queen, Dragonlord)
      5. Jon alone (his 3 aspects e.g. Snow/Stark/Targaryen or Man/Wolf/Dragonlord)
      6. Dany’s dragons (Rhaegal, Drogon, Viserion).
      7. Jon and his beasts (Jon, Ghost, Rhaegal)
      … etc

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    5. Great stuff. Glad to participate in this. Bolton-On was my favourite, it’s so crazy theory and I watch a video about it on youtube by AltShift .

      Queenofthrones,

      Popular interpretation is your first option. Although, show is not there in terms of dragon has three heads, but it might be relevant later on. Bloodraven said to Bran “you will fly”. It might not be connected to Daeny’s dragons but maybe Ice Dragon or something else. I like the theory about Daeny being the one like three identities or literally three dragons Rhaegal, Drogon and Viserion.

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    6. Mihnea: That’s where that lake theory is most likely true.
      He will defeat the Frey but the Boltons will finish him off.

      Yes. That would be my guess as well. Game of Thrones often elides different events into one, but it doesn’t just make up big stuff like that out of the blue, whatever its detractors may claim. In the show, instead of a Battle in the Snow against the Freys and a Battle for Winterfell against the Boltons, there was a small debilitating raid followed by an attempted Battle for Winterfell which ended up being fought in the snow. But they didn’t just invent the outcome.

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    7. Queenofthrones,

      I voted for that… but you’re right. Pretty much everyone agrees Melisandre will be involved, especially by now. The involvement of Ghost is another version of the theory, but not necessary. Though Jon’s warging will obviously not happen in the show, as it has not been set up at all, it may happen in the books… but it’s not as sure as Melisandre resurrecting him, in my book.

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    8. Queenofthrones:
      Also I’d consider Jon warging and Mel resurrecting him are two separate theories…

      Yes I do agree with that. I don’t think Jon will warg into Ghost at all, but I do think he will be resurrected by Mel.

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    9. Deesensfan,

      You have to realize that a small contigent of readers REALLY hate the character. Plenty of people dislike Dany and that’s fine, but these people hate her with such a passion that they’d rather Martin kill her off before she can even arrive to Westeros. Does it make any sense? No. Would it hurt the story and make a large portion of it pointless? Sure! I don’t think they care.

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    10. Geralt of Rivia,

      Yah I’m currently on board with Jon, Dany, Tyrion though I used to favor Jon, Dany, Bran. Go Team!

      Although I’m not a fan of the theory, people who favor Jon-Jon-Jon have some evidence to support their ideas. Though there’s little agreement among them other than “Jon is a super-duper special snowflake and the only character that matters and Dany sucks”. 🙂

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    11. Luka Nieto,

      So you are saying that this theory began due to hatred of the character, and not as a true theory that may be a twist…

      like for example, she wont make it to westeros, and the westerosi try to fight the WW but cant win so they flee to Essos and she is queen of Essos. I just made this up.

      Edit: I love her character

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    12. BryndenBFish,

      I think about a third of this one FOR ME was “don’t know or no opinion”. I thought I knew the books better than that, apparently not. But I did find some of it very funny.

      Three heads question: Daeny, Tyrion and Brann (tho not physically). I think Jon will keep those feet firmly on the ground as the opposite of fire (dragons).

      Can’t wait to see the results. Hope you get a ton of respondents.

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    13. Deesensfan:
      Luka Nieto,

      So you are saying that this theory began due to hatred of the character, and not as a true theory that may be a twist…

      like for example, she wont make it to westeros, and the westerosi try to fight the WW but cant win so they flee to Essos and she is queen of Essos. I just made this up.

      I certainly have never heard the “theory” in that context. I may be wrong, of course. But the few people I’ve seen who’d rather Dany didn’t invade Westeros (though vocal, it IS a small contingent) believe that because they don’t like her and they don’t want her to affect the storylines of characters they do like.

      Deesensfan: Edit: I love her character

      I do too. She’s a very interesting character.

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    14. Luka Nieto:
      Queenofthrones,

      I voted for that… but you’re right. Pretty much everyone agrees Melisandre will be involved, especially by now. The involvement of Ghost is another version of the theory, but not necessary. Though Jon’s warging will obviously not happen in the show, as it has not been set up at all, it may happen in the books… but it’s not as sure as Melisandre resurrecting him, in my book.

      I think he did warg Ghost, but it won’t make any difference as far as him being resurrected, so more just kind of a neat easter egg. I don’t believe in the theory some have that warging into ghost will somehow prevent Jon from being impacted in any way by having died and come back to life – I find that almost as cheap as the “it’s only a flesh wound!” crowd. 😀

      And they could still have him warg in the show. They can just have there be a wolf dream like Bran had right before/after Jon is brought back. The convenient thing about not setting any expectations that Jon can warg is that it would be a total surprise when it’s ghost’s face we see in a reflection instead of Summer’s…

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    15. Deesensfan: Do you think she will make it?

      To Westeros? Sure. I think she will be disappointed by it, though. The book often has Dany daydreaming about how the castles and everything else in Westeros must be so much more wonderful than anything she’s ever seen in Essos. So I think there will be some private disappointment, as well as a strategic anti-climax for her campaign —I’m pretty sure that, by the time she takes King’s Landing, winter will have come, and the Lannisters, the Tyrells and the Faith will have fucked everything up. At the very least, the Red Keep will be a smoldering ruin (as she envisioned in the show, in the House of the Undying). After that, I imagine she will be embroiled in the local politics for a short while (late TWOW and most of season 7, probably), and she will eventually travel North to fight off the real threat. Will she survive this new War for the Dawn? No idea! She may. I doubt all of her dragons will, though.

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    16. Luka Nieto,

      Thanks for your two cents
      I typically envision a similar path for her that you just described. The iron throne room will look as it did when she saw it in the house of the undying.
      I also predict we will see her head to westeros at the end of season 6

      I plan to read all the books after the show is done. but I might start after season 6… since by then the show will have surpassed the books anyway 🙂

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    17. I believe both Bran/Ghost and Mel will be working on Jon 2.0, one physically and one mentally. Heck, Mel may even be on Bran’s side and ignorantly working with Bloodraven, whose visions she thinks are from R’hllor. She may even discover that she was the product of dark magic and great bastard coupling between BR and Shiera Seastar (which would make her a distant relative of Jon and Dany). 🙂

      The CotF and the Others are both misunderstood. Neither are good for mankind. Heck, the wall may have been built by both the Others and CotF to keep mankind out.

      The more bizarre, the better, imho.

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    18. Deesensfan: I also predict we will see her head to westeros at the end of season 6

      Before WOTW provided us with so many filming reports about season six, I’d always assumed Dany would be in Westeros by the end of the season, in the particular scenario I described. Now that we know so much, however, I’m pretty sure that won’t be the case. But I still believe, as you do, that Dany will end the season heading to Westeros. Hopefully in Volantis, taking the city and freeing its slaves, and also preparing for an invasion of Westeros, as the climax for season six and a setup for season seven respectively.

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    19. JCDavis,

      I’m so glad I’m not the only one with Dany, Tyrion and Bran as the 3 heads! Jon has Ghost (I hope ghost survives). But, of course, I firmly believe in L+R=J. Imo there’s some proof about that in the crypts at Winterfell – but not the wedding cloak, he was already married, as we all know.
      I also had a lot of “no opinion” or “no” answers.

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    20. Mihnea,

      It’s exactly what I think it will happen. But before this, I suppose, Theon will be Stannis’s prisoner (as the future chapter showed us) and tortured for information. Ironical fate for Theon: no matter he does “good” or “bad” things, he is tortured (even if Stannis has no pleasure in it, but a practical purpose) – it’s GRRM’s way of reminding us that’s no reward for your deeds.

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    21. I got a little depressed when I had to choose which POV characters will be alive at the end of the series and I realised I could only check 4 ?

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    22. Whew! This one was a bit of a toughie, as I’d forgotten most of these theories. The ‘remembering’ was well worth the effort, though. 😀
      Have a safe and happy Christmas.

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    23. Luka Nieto,

      I think warging into Ghost will make some difference in Jon’ s resurrection, else won’t he be just like Beric or LS after resurrection? LS is a full on zombie, even Beric was less than human. I think death and resurrection will change Jon, but he will not be, I don’t know the word for this – non human. At least I hope so. But since this is most probably not happening on the show, I don’t know how he will retain his humanity.

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    24. ghost of winterfell,

      He will retain his humanity exactly as Beric did. Beric had died six times by the time we met him, and while he said he lost a bit more of himself every time, he behaved quite normally. Jon will only be resurrected once.

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    25. Note: “Will a greyscale outbreak occur?” And “will JonCon be patient zero?” are actually two different questions…Val is very concerned about Shireen after all. Plus if it’s really a water magic curse then it could theoretically occur anywhere damp without reference to Shireen or JonCon.

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    26. That was lots of fun!!! I had to answer don´t know/no op to many,though…oh,and one or two guilty pleasure theories like the Iron Throne itself killing Maegor 😉

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    27. Shy Lady Dragon:
      JCDavis,

      I’m so glad I’m not the only one with Dany, Tyrion and Bran as the 3 heads! Jon has Ghost (I hope ghost survives). But, of course, I firmly believe in L+R=J. Imo there’s some proof about that in the crypts at Winterfell – but not the wedding cloak, he was already married, as we all know.
      I also had a lot of “no opinion” or “no” answers.

      I think that if L + R = J is true, which I think it is, then Jon would or should have some sensitivity to the dragons, but I just think that he will still be the opposite of Daeny, who is most certainly fire. Also I think that Tyrion has an affinity for dragons, I do not think he is a secret Targ though.

      Happy Holidays Shy Lady! 🙂

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    28. I wanted to do this when I finished part 1! I made a list of all the theories I didn’t know, and I knew quite a lot from part 1.:
      – That the High Sparrow Septa’s are Mormonts
      – That Robb’s Will in Oldtown
      – Victarion’s wound being mortal.
      – Secret Items: Wedding Cloak, Egg, Ring, Obsidian, Harp, Aegon’s Crown. Blackfyre. I thought more in the lines of the statues of Kings of Winter, making Jon realize something.
      – Towers by the Sea, forget this bit of text.
      – Who built the Wall: Who are the “Deep Ones”? Wut?
      – Baelor Poisoned.
      – Did Visenya murder Aenys.
      – Lots of Princess and the Queen-stuff.. As I haven’t read it, nor the Rogue Prince.
      – Great Empire of the Dawn, is this the same thing that colonized the Isle of Ceders?
      – Fireball murdered by Bloodraven. Probably forgot reading “common archer” is code for suspicious.
      – Fused Stone Fortress: Again, who are these Deep Ones?
      – Dornish Letter: Two confusing letters too many!
      – Greasy Black Stones: Yeah.. Totally never heard about this before.. xD
      – What caused the Long Night: Meteor destroying a second moon… and AA causing the Long Night.
      – Ashford Theory: I read the D&E-books, but I’ve honestly never linked them to Sansa.
      – Dany being the who betrays.. for love, gold and blood.
      – Cersei’s Trial By Seven, who are Theoden Wells and Bonifer Hasty?

      Honestly quite intrigued by the idea of a Trial by Seven.. And the Long Night Meteor.. Gonna read up on those I guess. I’ve seen a video by Preston Jacobs in which he says something about underground tunnels because there was a nuclear fallout, which could link with that.. But are there really many underground tunnels?

      Also, are the Others truly evil.. Mmmmaybe? I suspect that the Children aren’t 100% good at all, than perhaps the Others may have beef with them? What’s at the Lands of Always Winter? Perhaps the Others are protecting something in the LoAW, the Children perhaps want it, but need the a force to get it? Hence they need a powerful Greenseer to lead an army North of the Wall, for which the Wall must crumble? And the Others are merely trying to stop them? Why are they killing humans? Why are human armies killing humans? In their eyes, they’re better served on their side. And Coldhands might be a Other-Deserter, which is why he works for Bloodraven, but can’t enter the cave.

      Might be totally unhinged though, but honestly.. they’re just a force of a different kind. The fact that they revive the slain into wights, doesn’t make them any better than any army killing another army. Just more dangerous because their numbers increase instead of decrease.

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    29. Deesensfan,

      Luka Nieto,

      If you don’t mind me adding my to cents in as well….I don’t mind Show!Dany so much, but Book!Dany I strongly dislike. It’s the dreaded Targaryen Entitlement, and the fact she seems to have zero interest in learning anything from Sir Barriston, or Quenton about Westeros, it’s people, or the ‘Usurpers’. She fails to grasp, and even worse makes no effort to grasp, what the Dornish are offering her with their offer of an alliance. I admit I strongly dislike the Meereen knot and have difficulty caring about anything that happens in Meereen, which probably colours my perception of the character. There are throries out there that Dany is showing signs of the Targaryen madness, and whilst I’m not sure if that is the case yet, it wouldn’t surprise me if GRRM does go down that path.

      I think Dany will get to Westeros, but as far as the Westerosi people are concerned, she will arrive as an invader, fire and blood, with dragons and a huge army at her back, doing what huge armies do in this world – rape, pillage and plunder. I think she will be very disappointed with Westeros, and realise that ‘home’ is actually Essos. This being George though, it will be too late for her to ever go back.

      I loved doing this poll, can’t wait to see the results.

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    30. Shy Lady Dragon:
      JCDavis,

      I’m so glad I’m not the only one with Dany, Tyrion and Bran as the 3 heads! Jon has Ghost (I hope ghost survives). But, of course, I firmly believe in L+R=J. Imo there’s some proof about that in the crypts at Winterfell – but not the wedding cloak, he was already married, as we all know.
      I also had a lot of “no opinion” or “no” answers.

      There are other Targ’s that had multiple wives, starting with Aegon the conqueror himself. Rhaegar knew that his wife Elia could not have any more children but thought he needed a third child to fulfill the prophecy. So I believe he did marry Lyanna in secret, possibly by Septon Meribald.
      That would also make a good theory question 😉

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    31. I Dream of Spring,

      I think it would make a lot of sense if Dany was disappointed with Westeros. She seems to have such an idealized view of what it’s like there, she’s almost bound to be disappointed. I think it would also be very much in keeping with the idea of “bittersweet.” Dany goes through so much to get to Westeros, only to find it isn’t at all what she expected, and instead of finding her metaphorical “house with the red door” there, she realizes she will never find another “house with the red door.”

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    32. I’m surprised that you didn’t include the question of whether Aegon IV poisoned both Baelor the Blessed and Viserys II. I don’t think Viserys poisoned anyone.

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    33. The answer to the first questions should be: “There is no such thing as good or evil in Martinverse.”

      😀

      Hodors Bastard: The CotF and the Others are both misunderstood. Neither are good for mankind. Heck, the wall may have been built by both the Others and CotF to keep mankind out.

      The more bizarre, the better, imho.

      I would consider “good” or “evil” to be much more bizarre than “we have our own agendas.” After all, no member of the Ku Klux Klan sits around and thinks to him/herself “bwah ha ha, I am evil…. People always think that it is right to look out for their own: as Tywin says, a good man does everything in his power to advance his family’s fortunes.

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    34. Wimsey: People always think that it is right to look out for their own: as Tywin says, a good man does everything in his power to advance his family’s fortunes.

      Or as Robert Frost once wrote: “Good fences make good neighbors.” Hence, the wall.

      Yeah…”evil” is relative. Honestly though, I want some of the twists to come to be bizarre….totally enjoy many of these theories and endgames.

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    35. Hodors Bastard: Honestly though, I want some of the twists to come to be bizarre….totally enjoy many of these theories and endgames.

      I will be disappointed if they are bizarre. If GRRM (and B&W) has done it correctly, then everything should be: “I saw that coming” or “I should have seen that coming.”

      We do not have many comparisons for this sort of prolonged series. Robert Jordan’s series might have had this attention in the late 1990’s, but it seems that he successfully killed interest with so many bad books. The closest comparison we have is Harry Potter, which got even more attention than SoI&F. HP fans had a lot of comparable ideas to the ones in these two surveys: and the vast majority of them were never even addressed by the final book. When asked about a couple of these things after the series ended, Rowling seemed stumped as to why people were even asking the questions!

      Rowling herself commented once that she’d been a lurker on one of the big HP discussion groups and was taken aback by the extent to which fans were barking completely up the wrong trees. She said that she even tried to start a couple of threads (I’d love to know the name she used!) that had questions prodding people in the right direction: but the threads basically died due to lack of interest!

      I am betting that we will get something similar here. If it is not stuff about which one of the main characters is actively wondering, or stuff that will actively make him/her evolve further along the lines that the need to do for the story, then it probably won’t be in the books.

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    36. Nymeria Warrior Queen: I think it would also be very much in keeping with the idea of “bittersweet.”

      I suspect that the “bittersweet” will be quite different from that. GRRM revels in “damned if you do / damned if you do not.” The climax of the story almost certainly will involve some set of big damned if you do/don’t choices by the Big 5 (or perhaps Big 6, although I’m still not sure that Sansa will be important in the end). Where I suspect GRRM is going is that the bitter and sweet will come from the fact that the main characters will do the “least wrong” thing, and have to live with themselves wondering if some other, better solution could have been had. As the Moment said to the Doctor, their punishment will be to survive.

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    37. I Dream of Spring,

      I do not think that any of this is true. Indeed, the books flatly contradict much of what you assert! The “entitlement” part is particularly ludicrous: this is a world where the only thing that entitles anybody to anything is ancestry; moreover, this is a world where it is considered flatout immoral to not do everything in your power to succor your family’s fortunes and honor. I.e., it would be wrong for Daeny to not try to win back the Crown insofar as the Westerosi are concerned.

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    38. Wimsey,

      But there is only a throne to win because 300 years ago the Targs, who had not long arrived in Westeros, were so convinced they should rule they conquered seven kingdoms that had existed as separate kingdoms without them for thousands of years. Why? Because they’re Targs! They have dragons! They are the blood of old Valyria! If that’s not entitlement, I don’t know what is. Robert legitimately overthrew the Targ dynasty, in much the same way as the Targs overthrew the seven dynasties ruling the kngdoms 300 years ago. The Targs were legitimately overthrown and now have no particular right to the throne. Robert’s legitimate heir is the only one ‘entitled’ to the throne.

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    39. Wimsey,

      I was merely speaking to one aspect of the bittersweetness. I think there will be many different aspects of it for many different characters. If you don’t think it would be in keeping with the idea of bittersweetness for, after all she’s been through to get there, Dany finally gets what she’s wanted for so many years, to go “home,” only to discover it ain’t all she had it cracked up to be in her mind, so be it.

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    40. I Dream of Spring,

      Very interesting two cents
      I agree with you on many aspects!!!
      And as someone who hasn’t read the book I can see how she is slightly disliked
      However the show doesn’t portray her that way at all.. I mean she burnt a few people but she is very interested in learning about westeros and everything. She listens to jorah, selmy and Tyrion

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    41. Mihnea,

      I do think it is different in the books as opposed to the show. The show has left out Jon’s warging, but it is prominent in the books. I think book version, he must have warged into Ghost, but I haven’t read that far yet, so it is just a guess based on what I have read on this site.

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    42. My crackpot theory about Tyrek Lannister is that he’s either dead or will be dead soon. Arya will wear his face to infiltrate King’s Landing.

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    43. Deesensfan:
      I Dream of Spring,

      Very interesting two cents
      I mean she burnt a few people but she is very interested in learning about westeros and everything. She listens to jorah, selmy and Tyrion

      I don’t want to get too spoilery on you as I know you haven’t read the books, but (and apologies if this doesn’t work as it’s my first time trying to spoiler-tag anything)

      her father, Mad King Aerys, burnt people alive including Ned’s father and older brother. And he was insane.

      Edited to add – sorry didn’t work! Will need to do a test post later to practice spoilers.

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    44. I Dream of Spring,

      No worries
      I think I kinda knew that.

      Yes but he was known to be mad.
      I don’t think she’s there yet in the show and I find it hard to see how she will become mad unless she becomes insane when she is trying to rule in westeros… If everyone is opposing her type thing… So maybe season 7.

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    45. I Dream of Spring,

      You can’t be more wrong …..

      I doubt is there any character like dany who constantly questions and trying to learn new things in the books…

      From.the very first chapter we see how different she is from viserys …she does not trust illyrio….listen to what people actually speak about them in the street…..she constantly learns from jorah .,barristan and learns from them …..she listen to the council what every one has to say ….you could argue about her asking barristan to tell later about her father…but one has to understand the situation she has just taken a city and she needs to see that more than 80000 people are safe and fed and just known that only one person she trusted have been betraying her ….but even then she asks to tell barristan both good and bad things about her father. . ..she even wonders whether she herself monster is a monster if her family is a monster ….is any mad person will wonder like that …
      Now if the books are not subtle …it would have ended like in the show …you saw what was the reaction of dany when said about her father…..but Grrm is waiting for a moment to reveal the whole truth and hence its being stalled

      You know what she does when she is alone with quentyn …she asks about her namesake and history of dorne …..you would like to read that chapter …its the chapter where she shows quentyn dragons ….after coming out of the cave …she asks about quoting ” I know little of this daeneryz and dorne …so tell me about her ” ” or something like that …
      That there is the proof of her wanting to learn things….

      You accuse her of targ entitlement and then go on to blame her for not accepting the proposal of dorne ….you do realize she is trying to do some good so that she have kept her own goal aside and sacrifices to the well being of that people…..is that what one with an entitlement will do …if it was viserys ….would he have done the same thing …

      The so called targ entitlement is bit ridiculous …every character is entitled in the book….but only few characters like dany is actually cared and did something for common people ….

      Deesensfan,

      She is like that only in the books too ….she is one of the characters who constanly listen and questions people ..just see my reply above to I dream of spring ….and she never burns people in the books…

      And about her not getting to westeros….like luka and minhea said …..just wanted to add its more due to the fact of insecurity some feel that she will steal the light of their favorite character and hence project their hatred in theories that doenst make sense …a bit ridiculous thinking ….every character will have their roles to play ….

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    46. As for three heads of the dragon …I believed that it will be dany Jon and tyrion at first …

      But after so many rereads …..I came to conclusion its dany ( dragon ) has three heads ( drogon ,rhaegal ,viserian ..) ….it actually refers to the prophecies one dragon will fulfill IMO…a dragon that was promised who fulfills three prophecies of same version AAr TPTWP and TSWMW……all three prophecies talk about a coming of the promised prince and come from asshai …..

      There is no other character related with 3s like dany ….she tries to hatch dragon three times and succeeded at third time ….3 dragons…3 rides …3 mounts …3 fires…daughter of 3 ….3 betrayals…the number of walls in the qarth 3 …
      The no of ships she gets from illyrio is 3 …the no of cities in slavers bay is 3 ….I could go on and on but you get the gist of it …

      In Hinduism there is a god called trimurthy ….who is embodiment of three aspects and has three heads ….( creator ,preservor and destroyer) …

      Dany embodies all three aspects too ( creater – mother mhysa….preservor – queen ….destroyer — khaleesi )

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    47. dragonbringer,

      Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a Dany-hater, and I actually quite like Dany in the show. I like her interactions with Tyrion and Barriston. However, I’m disliking her character more and more as the books progress, and I don’t think I’m alone in that. Indeed, I think that GRRM has written her that way, to be more challenging to the reader, starting out as the girl we all cheered for and then making her and her actions/decisions more challenging and complex. Look at Slavers Bay, she has freed the slaves *yay* but left the cities behind her in disarray facing disease/war/famine etc. What about those people when she heads off to rule Westeros? Or disappears into the Dothraki Sea? Will she ever actually return to Meereen? Or Astapor? I get that she is learning the trade of ruling as she goes, but my feeling is that – like Aegon 1 before her – she is better at conquering than ruling effectively afterwards. She tried to solve that problem, and learn to rule, by staying in Meereen but, I think it’s fair to say it hasn’t really worked out that well. Sure, it’s not her fault that the old slave masters of Slavers Bay are rising up against her and trying to take back their cities, but really, what did she expect them to do as soon as her back was turned?

      I think she will undoubtably be one of the hero’s of the war against the Others, but I don’t think GRRM is interested in whiter-than-white hero’s. Like most of the characters, she is shades of grey, white and black.

      And for the record – I don’t actually think Dany is going to go insane, it’s just an interesting theory that (like many theories, even Bolt-On) actually has some evidence supporting it. Dany in the show is certainly not going mad.

      Also – I’m not concerned about Dany taking spotlight away from my fave characters when she arrives in Westeros ( leaving Essos end S6 to arrive early S7, I’m picking); none of my fave characters have the slightest chance of sitting on the Throne, or being a major dragon-riding hero in the the fight against the Others.

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    48. I Dream of Spring,

      You said she never learns or tries to learn …especially from barristan and quentyn …and I showed you how you are wrong and she specifically asks for and learns from quentyn and barristan about westeros….so in that you were wrong …

      About leaving slavers bay in disarray ….she herself admitted it was a mistake and that is a reason she decided to stay in meereen and correct her mistakes and make her people safe …..
      Yes it has been worked well till now …but she tries and tries and keep trying till she successful…

      Did she not think about the people when she was in dothraki sea …it was the reason why she wanted to return to meereen and started walking to find a way to meereen when drogon didn’t take her ….

      Did she left for westeros already ….she had rejected twice the offers to return to westeros one by Xaro and another by quentym because of the people in slavers bay ….but u blamed her for not accepting quentyn proposal…what would have happenwd to those people of dany had agreed ….

      Slavers bay plotline is still not finished ….a lots of questions you ask are not yet happened in the books as well as show ….so wait and see how it’s resolved ….I believe she will burn down meeren and ghiacari to the ground and from the new civilization will arise …in that there will be no slavery and no more deaths ….

      You accused her of having targ entitlement but all the characters are entitled ……but can you point me to any characters who have really cared for small folks and did something for them or sacrifices for them…
      I can say Jon Edmure tully and doran martell as the who caref for the common people….other than these people and few more do other characters even care for small folks …

      Am not saying you are a hater but I just wanted to point out how wrong in your claims about the character…hope u get what am saying …

      Sure meereen was slow but what part of last two books had a fast pacing …..but its still good writeen the last two chapters of dany in ADWD are one of the best chapters in the series ….

      And one needs to remember the plot in slavers bay is not yet resolved …

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    49. dragonbringer,

      I totally get what you are saying, and I didn’t mean to imply that she doesn’t ever learn anything as she goes through her journey, that’s why she wanted to stay in Meereen and plant trees and watch them grow. As I said upthread, Dany is a complex character, light and dark like most of the characters. And she has changed a lot from the girl we first met in AGOT. I agree the Slavers Bay plotline is not finished, we won’t know for certain how it all plays out for quite a while yet. And you’re right, I did forget she wanted to to get back to Meereen from the Dothraki Sea. But, I’m not sure that changes the fact that sooner or later she is going to leave Slavers Bay for Westeros, presumably not too return. And she is unlikely to be able to be sure her reforms in Slavers Bay stick unless she is there to make them stick. What happened in the previous cities she has left is probably an indication (I think) of what will happen everywhere in the Bay that is under her control when she leaves for Westeros. And one thing most fans appear to agree on is that sooner or later, she will be leaving Slavers Bay to head to Westeros.

      I know Quenton’s offer was one of several she turned down to get to Westeros, the difference IMO between his and the others was that it was a Westerosi offer, and I’m really not sure she understood, or tried to understand, the significance of turning down support from Westeros itself. You’re right, if she had taken the offer (not that she could, as she had already remarried) she would have left the people in Slavers Bay in the lurch and she didn’t want to do that. But my point is, that sooner or later she is going to go to Westeros, and the people she leaves behind will be left in the lurch – not every person in Slavers Bay can follow her to Westeros. And then what happens to them? As you say, hopefully we will find out in TWOW.

      And you are so right about Dany’s last couple of chapters in Dance, they are so well written. Hopefully more like it in TWOW.

      Re the entitlement – Dany does care about those people she rules,obviously she has the interests of the poor at heart when she rules, but I don’t think she gives too many hints in her POVs that she thinks the Iron Throne should be hers for altruistic reasons. She wants the Throne because she thinks it is her birthright, and the Usurper and the Usurpers Dogs stole it from her family. You’re right, she may well do a lot for the smallfolk were she to actually become queen of Westeros, but ultimately, right now in Slavers Bay, she hasn’t given a thought to the plight of the Westerosi smallfolk that I can remember. The only time I can recall her thinking about them was when Viserys (or Illyrio?) was going on about the smallfolk secretly praying for the return of the Targs and sewing banners for them and she, to her credit, didn’t think that sounded quite right. Of course all the Great Houses feel entitled – it is that kind of society. And caring about the smallfolk is not a pre-requisite for the job (unfortunately). But the Tullys/Lannisters/Martells etc are feeling entitled whilst actually living on their lands and overseeing their people (whether or not they actually care about the smallfolk). Dany, on the other hand, is feeling entitled to rule a country she left a few hours after her birth. To be fair to her, this ‘entitlement’ she learned from Viserys, but it still doesn’t change the fact she considers herself the rightful ruler of Westeros even though she has barely stepped foot there. Maybe we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I seem to recall this was brought up in the show as well, during Tyrion and Jorah’s journey to Meereen just before they were captured.

      I totally get what you are saying and where you are coming from with your view of Dany. But there are things about her book character that I’m not so keen on. But hey, the fact that we can sit here and have these long debates about the story and its characters is what makes this story (book or show) so awesome. Hopefully we will get a resolution to Slavers Bay in both the show and books that satisfies everybody.

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    50. I Dream of Spring,

      Well like I said I think she is going to burn down meereen to dust and defeat the ghiscari for once and all ….
      One of the things people in slavers bay need to understand is that dany alone can’t make sure slavery is abolished …..the slaves have to stand up and fight for their freedom …I think we are starting to see this in volantis and other regions…..once ghiscari is defeated …there will be no one to enforce slavery ….and the major donors in slave trade is dothraki which she is going to control ….if as awife of khal she can stop raping and pillaging …think what will she do as khal of khal on top of drogon ….
      Thus the slave trade can be end …

      She understood the offer of quentyn well enough ….because she was sensible enough to present quentyn with an alternative even though she can’t marry him ….she offered him her one of dragons so that he can become another rider and that way alliance can work ….but its not her fault quentyn was weak and doran stupid plan…

      She thinks that its her duty as a last targaryen to reclaim the throne for her ancestors…. Take cersei for example she thinks she is a queen and that’s it but not really care about the people ….but dany questions herself ….thinks that its her duty to protect people ….she asks after all what good is a queen if she can’t help The people …the same thought never comes to cersei or other queens in the story and thats why I like her …
      You mentioned how she thought visrrys was wrong in believing illyrio lies ….similarly she also thinks in AcOK how her kingdom must be and how people should be happy ..

      Yes it was brought up on the show too but the point is in the tyrion like jorah ended believing in her at the end of the season…
      Maybe we can agree to disagree here but as long as there is a united westeros and iron throne …dany as a last targ have claim to it ….her wanting to reclaim throne as her duty to for ancestors also I understand …I can’t fault her for that ….

      I agree with you on the last part ….this is such an awesome world that Grrm is created that we can’t get enough
      ..hopefully books too come soon as does show

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    51. Luka Nieto:
      Only one of the historical ones had a “it won’t matter in the story.” For the other ones I went for “No opinion”, but I think they are one and the same. As for the theories that may actually matter in the story, there weren’t many surprises. Though I’m curious whether people have changed their minds about Stannis’ odds at Winterfell (and about the veracity of the Pink Letter, consequently) now that he’s been defeated and executed on the show. I certainly have changed my mind —I doubt Stannis will survive past the first third or at most half of TWOW. He will probably win the battle in the snow against the Freys, but I very much doubt he will take Winterfell.

      I’ve never been as enthusiastic about Stannis’s chances at Winterfell as the general fandom seemed to be. For one, Martin is rarely straightforward; there are usually twists and/or complications in his plots and I doubt he’ll handily beat the Bolton-Frey Alliance and waltz into Winterfell.

      Then again, perhaps Stannis’s victory in TWoW is intended as a twist after the Pink Letter bore news of his defeat.

      Really not sure where this one is going…

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    52. Sullied by Knight,

      Jon’s warging is NOT

      prominent in the books.

      On the contrary, Jon’s

      not warging is prominent in the books. Jon never goes beyond wolf dreams, and the one PoV chapter from a wart indicates that Jon must be conciously or unconsciously resisting warging. Jon never tries to “jump” into Ghost the way that Bran routinely does with Summer or even as Arya starts to do with local cats.

      I find this case particularly curious because GRRM seems to have gone a little out of his way to make a point and yet some readers seems to have drawn the opposite conclusion!

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    53. I Dream of Spring,

      I agree: you do not know what entitlement is if you think that is entitlement! It is theirs by right of conquest: and that is considered a legitimate right in their society. Moreover, this is a society in which most people consider inheritance to be to only other legitimate source of claiming something.

      As Daeny has inherited something that her ancestors created by conquest, she and she alone has claim to it. That is primogeniture, not entitlement: and to confound the two is purely anachronistic.

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    54. Deesensfan:

      Do you think she [Daenerys] will make it?

      Perhaps a bit spoilery:

      Martin pretty much confirmed that she’s coming to Westeros in one of his earlier SSMs (So Spake Martin). Interestingly, he planned Dany to reach Westeros by the end of ADwD (if not even earlier), but we can see how that turned out.

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    55. Queenofthrones:
      Geralt of Rivia,

      Yah I’m currently on board with Jon, Dany, Tyrion though I used to favor Jon, Dany, Bran.Go Team!

      Though there’s little agreement among them other than “Jon is a super-duper special snowflake and the only character that matters and Dany sucks”.

      I always thought that thre headed dragon will involve Daeny in some way. I can see why some pople thinks about Jon being the one. Three identities Snow, Stark and Targaryen, but not currently in favour of this.

      As for three heads. Bran will fly and I don’t think it will be raven or any that kind of animal. That should be pretty big deal for Bran and dragon fits exactly that. Tyrion’s obsession with dragons in the books and curiosity in the show. Daeny is given. It’s either Daeny being that or this.

      I just can’t see Jon riding a dragon to battle with them and stuff. Just too cliche, predictable and boring, but it’s a common interpretation of this. I see Jon especially his show version as a someone who can lead people as a warrior instead of dragonrider. In all honesty I don’t ever see him embracing Targ side of his assuming R+L=J is true. He has no emotional connection to them, he doesn’t know them and there will be other things to deal with than learning about Targaryens. Daeny doesn’t know too much about it.

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    56. dragonbringer,

      Interesting.. thank you for explaining
      I don’t see how her arrival will take a spotlight from any one? The other major character fighting for the throne is Stannis. And he is Dead 🙂 lol

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    57. Deesensfan,

      Exactly and he is not even that major character who can be compared with dany ….but around 2012 and 2013 in westeros.org there was this severe stannis campaign and lots of hate threads on dany and trying to twist every detail and things to make her look bad …
      Now its been reduced I assume …
      But nowadays that hate seems to have shifted to Jon with claims that he is taking over what is supposed to be stannis arc I’m next season ….I like stannis but as a secondary character …comparing him with Jon and dany is unfair and bit ridiculous..

      Its not only about the throne but it was also about her role in war of dawn ….here comes some hardcore fans of Jon who thought dany role will undermine Jon and hence began the theories that dany will not fight WW but die so that Jon can take over drogon ……sometimes these type of threads are amusing but some time it will irritating

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    58. Geralt of Rivia,

      Bran is going to be a tree god for the rest of the series: he will not be leaving his tree.

      I had long thought that Aegon would be the 3rd: I always assumed that they had gotten him out of Kings Landing, as getting a look alike for a toddler would be extremely easy, and they had to worry both about Robert and Aerys killing him. However, the fact that the show is excluding him is strong evidence that this will be an irrelevant narrative detour in the books.

      So, now I am leaning towards Tyrion as the third head, or at least the ultimate 3rd head.

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    59. dragonbringer,

      Oh I see what you mean.

      That is ridiculous. it is clear that Stannis’ journey to where he is now was a set up to lead us to the true Chosen One… Jon! in Season3 EP10, when the Red Woman sees the true battle lies in the north, she says that Stannis is the only one who can defeat them, and she says that they need Davos to do so.. Its clear that her visions were wrong but everything else was right.
      Stannis has served his purpose in the story. I liked him too. But its complicated with him.

      As for Jon… I don’t see why, again, there will only be one who will defeat the Others. This is going to require a group effort. Team work. Daeny, Bran, Jon, Tyrion Etc. How it plays out, is another discussion.

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    60. Deesensfan,

      No. If Tywin is not Tyrion’s father, then we need someone with dark features given that Tyrion seems to have a mix of blonde and black hair, and one very dark eye. Really, he serms more a mix of Dothraki and Lannister than Valyrian and Lannister!

      My bet is that he is Tywin’s son, however. The odd mix represents something else: who knows, maybe R’hllor messed with him as a fetus.

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    61. Wimsey,

      Aegon is not on the show. I thought about him too ,but show kin seals that for us. Maybe somehow Daeny Deus Ex Machina will control all three of them. That would be an interesting twist to it from the predictable outcome of Daeny, Tyrion and Jon. I’m not sure about Jon being one, but absolutely sure about Daeny. She has to be involved in a way.

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    62. Geralt of Rivia,

      That is why I suspect that Aegon is going to be an irrelevant narrative detour in the books. B&W have been assiduous about trimming narrative fat, after all, and the fact that Aegon is trimmed makes it likely that he, too, is such fat.

      As for Daeny controlling all three, that would not remotely be D.E.M. She has raised all three by hand since hatching, after all. The audience would have no problem understanding this.

      As to it being predictable, GRRM will have screwed up terribly if it is not predictable, or at leadt not obvious when it happens. Guns fired late must be hung eatly: otherwise, it is either arbitrary or Deus ex Machina.

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    63. Deesensfan,

      Mel’s visions were not wrong: it was her inferences about what they meant that was wrong. After all, she gets just pueces of a complicated puzzle: she actually is pretty good at deriving simple explanations for the. However, Mel is not omniscient: if she knw Daeny’s history, then Mel would probably have realized that Daeny is a better fit than Stannis; however, nobody knows everything (and the characters know considerably kess than we do), and Mel must make do with her finite knowledge.

      And, of course: who knows what R’hllor’s real game is? I seriously doubt that any of its followers do!

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    64. Wimsey,

      Re Rowling starting threads to prod fans in the right direction…

      Fans weren’t interested because they like to write their own stories. In a way, it’s kind of vain to argue about the facts of the fiction. There aren’t any facts, not absolutely, anyway.

      All of this fiction stuff is a true story that didn’t happen. As long as their theories COULD be true, then I suppose, that’s good enough for them.

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    65. Luka Nieto,

      I like Deny’s character a lot. She’s definitely a winner..and just diabolical enough for my taste. I can’t figure out where she comes by her smarts, though. She didn’t have any parents to raise her – just a depraved brother.

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    66. Anon,

      It also misses the point. As GRRM had noted, the answer to “How many husbands did Scarlett O’Hare really have?” is: “She never existed in the first place.” What is frustrating both GRRM and Rowling is that a lot of their fans are much more interested in the “universe” in which their stories are set than in the stories themselves. Those were the fans most disappointed with the final HP book, and if GRRM lives to complete his series, then these will be the fans most disappointed in Spring if GRRM writes a good novel.

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    67. Wimsey,

      Did GRRM say that, really? lol – I didn’t know.

      I guess that’s an effect of creating such a damn good universe, that people fall in love with it over the story, as written.

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    68. Anon,

      I paraphrased, but, yes, he has said that a couple of times. He’s used that when people have asked questions along the lines of “why did you let B&W do X when what really happened is Y?” GRRM keeps stressing that the show and the books are telling the same story in different ways, and he (like Rowling) has mentioned once or twice that he would have had to tell the story differently if he’d been doing it as a movie or TV show.

      However, that is something that a certain type of fan common to all fandoms forget: the “world building” is done as a tool for the sake of story-telling, not for it’s own sake. In many ways, it is more important to do this in books than TV or film because TV and film can show so much more than mere words can (pictures probably paint more than 1000 words, after all); world building in books is a substitute for the inability to show sets, costumes, etc. It is how you make things “real” when you can only describe them verbally.

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    69. jhd:
      Who will sit on the iron throne by the end???

      By process of scatological elimination, I have determined that Ser Pounce will have the IT by the end, with Nymeria ruling the north.

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    70. Nymeria Warrior Queen,

      Oh, he did the children comparison, too? (Or maybe I mixed it up: the movie also cut husbands.)

      At any rate, GRRM’s primary point stands: there is story, there is plot, and there is narrative detail; to do the same story in two different media, you sometimes have to modify the plot and you always have to modify the details.

      Happy Zagmuk to all: I hope that you kept Marduk (the oldest known Azor Ahai figure!) in it….

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    71. Wimsey,

      I didn’t mean that her visions were wrong. I meant that she was following the wrong person
      I wonder how her visions or R’hllor led her to stannis to begin with?

        Quote  Reply

    72. Deesensfan,

      I would surmise that, for whatever reasons, she became aware of Stannis’ history without learning about Daenyrs’ history. Stannis is, after all, a good answer: but she still had to shoehorn him into the prophecy somewhat. Still, this sort of “mistake” is very common in reality.

        Quote  Reply

    73. KG,

      Daeny cannot be a red herring: only foils can be red herrings, and Daeny is the most important protagonist is the series (tied with Jon). In many ways, Daeny is the story: all of her evolution coupled with Jon’s (which largely parallel each other) will be most of the story of SoI&F.

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    74. Wimsey,

      All the red priests of Essos are convinced that Dany is AA, yet Mel never even seems to question that possibility, even though by her own admission she makes mistakes in interpreting the visions she sees in her fires. She may not have known of Dany’s history when she decided to back Stannis, but subsequently she must have heard about the last Targeryen who has given birth to dragons. Yet even that does not lead her to question the possibility of Dany being the true AA. I always assumed the reason for that was that the visions she saw were different from what the other priests saw. Whatever magic is guiding those visions is puposely leading her in a different direction. And that she was meant to find Jon, whereas all the other red priests were being directed towards Dany.

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    75. Deesensfan,

      She answers that in the books she believes its stannis because he is the lord of dragonstone ….a place amidst salt and smoke …..but Jon thinks she is wrong because stannis was only lord and not born there ….

      KG,

      I think Wimsey covered it well …but want to add one simple thing hers is the story which was released as a seperate bool and fetched an award for GRRm ….

      ghost of winterfell,

      That’s the thing though ….they don’t seem to hear or know about dany at all…
      The rumors about her are only starting to reach north ….davos heard it but stannis and Mel still doesn’t know ..

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    76. dragonbringer,

      Is it evident that Mel and Stannis have not heard about Dany? I can’t recall.

      “I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and r’hllor shows me only Snow”. I would say Mel’s visions have led her exactly where she is supposed to be, though.

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    77. dragonbringer: she believes its stannis because he is the lord of dragonstone ….a place amidst salt and smoke …..but Jon thinks she is wrong because stannis was only lord and not born there ….

      I believe BR is manipulating those visions, as he manipulated Bran’s visions. His agenda may be multi-fold…
      1) He mystically helped lure Stannis and his armies away from Dragonstone and KL;
      2) He has identified Mel’s role in using the red god’s power to preserve a Targ/Stark and hence align the old gods and red god for a possible loaded agenda
      3) [crackpot] Mel may have clearer Targ lineage than previously known (BR + SS = M)
      4) He is assisting in restoring Targs to power by paving the way in KL

      I believe his goal to transfer his agenda to Bran before he disintegrates into the weirnet…but there will be a wrinkle in that plan and Bran will assert himself uniquely.

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    78. ghost of winterfell,

      Yes stannis knows about viserys and dany living but he doesn’t know anything about them since GOT because he ran off from KL so he doesn’t know the marriage with drogo or viserys dying or dragons hatching …

      Davis is the only one to hear about dany and that too in ADWD…if Mel knows about dany and her dragons she would have jumped gun already like Aemon did …

      But Mel gets this visions she doesn’t know what it means ….one perfect example is how she and stannis see a vision which is very similar to viserys’s death and think its stannis …

      And she gets to look at winged shadows but doenst connect them to dragons…
      Two kings did die to wake the dragon …viserys and rhaego died to wake dany as dragon( chapter in AGoT where dany flies as dragon and sees herself as rhaegar the last dragon…she wakes as a dragon afttrr getting visions of viserys and rhaego dying )

      Amd that Mel chapter i think GRRm is fooling everyone ..
      That chapter starts with Mel saying how Many priests been brought down by false visions and what they wished to see instead of what lord of light sent …

      And we get to see a vision of clear blue sky and winged shadows ….a match to meereen and dragons ….

      But suddenly she rememebers about the girl in the dying horse ….and then she specifically asks for her so only Jon will believe her….
      And after thatt only we get to see the vision of Jon ….

      and later when she speaks to Jon she does tell that she only sees snow when looking for both stannis and also mance ….

      It looks like lord of light just shows jon is in immediate danger and how she must help him …as he is important for war of dawn just not AAr

      And another thing to consider is other priests like moqorro have 100% record in interpreting the fires unlike Mel ….

      Even then the thing with dany is it is not only red priests have to say …dany has fulfilled every aspects of the prophecy

      Hodors Bastard,

      Well I believe in BR+SS =Mel too but can BR really influence fires …I am not sure about that ….
      I like to believe in that Mel was menat to be in north since Jon is there and BR is there ….

      I do believe BR has targ well being in his heart along with the war of dawn

      Two things i hope in TWOW is we get to see BR and bran talk about dany ….Mel meeting BR and knowing about dany and her dragons

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    79. KG: The dragons will make it; she won’t.

      It’s a possibility. None of us can know with complete certainty what will happen. While it appears things are set up for Dany to make it until the end, there is no guarantee. If the prophecy is correct, the only children Dany will have are her dragons. Perhaps Dany’s main contribution is to bring dragons back into the world, and as her children, and thus her legacy, perhaps that is what will carry on, not Dany herself.

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    80. ghost of winterfell: Oliver Ford Davies who played maester Cressen in S2 said that Mel is 400 years old.

      Well…I wouldn’t call gossip between actors exactly canon, but Mel’s age could be debated forever. 🙂 Maybe she is simply a slave girl who became a shadowbinder and rogue red priestess who practices a bit of dark magic as well. Given the few anecdotes that we know about BR & SS, one can wonder if there is a connection….but even if there isn’t a connection, I do believe BR and Bran are destined to “interface” with her at some point soon.

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    81. Queenofthrones:
      Geralt of Rivia,

      Yah I’m currently on board with Jon, Dany, Tyrion though I used to favor Jon, Dany, Bran. Go Team!

      I voted Jon, Dany, Arya. I love Arya and Tyrion equally, and I like Bran, but I see Arya as more of the badass warrior whereas Tyrion is the strategical and political mastermind and Bran is the network hacker. And I think the two female and one male combo would nicely mirror the original conquerors of the Seven Kingdoms: Aegon and his two sister-riders, Visenya and Rhaenys (which reminds me of Viserion and Rhaegal). Arya grew up as Jon’s half-sister and Dany is biologically Jon’s half-sister, so I just like that reflection better than Tyrion or Bran.

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    82. I Dream of Spring:
      dragonbringer,
      Indeed, I think that GRRM has written her that way, to be more challenging to the reader, starting out as the girl we all cheered for and then making her and her actions/decisions more challenging and complex. Look at Slavers Bay, she has freed the slaves *yay* but left the cities behind her in disarray facing disease/war/famine etc. What about those people when she heads off to rule Westeros? Or disappears into the Dothraki Sea? … She is better at conquering than ruling effectively afterwards.

      I recall the interview with GRRM where he was talking about how he never liked it when books left the tale at the end of the conquering with, “and they all lived happily ever after.” He wanted to know the details of how the new ruler ruled, was he good at it, did he really have all of the qualities of a good leader because these qualities are so different from what makes a good conqueror. To me, it seems like GRRM was nodding at both Robert and Dany, excellent conquerors but not-so-much excellent rulers. However, I do think that Dany wants to be an excellent ruler, in contrast to Robert. GRRM seems to have intentionally drawn Dany as a ruler who makes a lot of mistakes, albeit with good intentions. And I believe he established her mistakes to setup Tyrion as a hero when he steps in as the Hand of the Queen. Because I’m no Tyrion, I’m not 100% certain that Dany’s big moves are the big mistakes I think them to be, but that’s my gut impression.

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    83. Ginevra,

      http:// http://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845

      This is the interview you are reffering to…

      He talks about dany and her situation in meereen….to his credit GrRM mentions all the hardships faced in Meereen ..how they are surrounded and all the trees burned and trade routes blocked ….and he finds it interesting to make rule in that situtaion ….and he even acknowledges that majority of the fans dont like it …but he focuses on the few readers who likes it like him…

      You can see the difference between someone like dany and Robert ….he never had this much difficulties in ruling his kingdom but he doesn’t show any interest in ruling …but dany tries to rule and meets the people …. Dany as attended the more council meetings as queen in meereen than Robert had attended in his 13 years as king of westeros….

      On the subject of tyrion. ….I don’t think that its going to be easy for him and GRRm has set up it that way …..tyrion has along way to reach dany’s small council and before that battle will be over …iam sure he can do better at somethings but he wont and cant able to solve all the problems….and from what we havw known of coming season it looks like iam right and tyrion doesn’t know what to do and can’t get hold of the situation either ….

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    84. Thank you, dragonbringer! That wasn’t exactly the interview; the one I saw was a video and perhaps even an HBO extras video. But he said much the same thing about Tolkien and wanting to know more about the rule itself. I imagine GRRM says a lot of the same things over and over in interviews. However, in the interview I saw, I don’t recall that he gave specific reference to Dany’s rule, so that bit was especially interesting and seems to support what I’m thinking.

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    85. BbF, I love these polls & I’ve tried hard not to accidentally complete them at other sites since I took the 1st half of the poll here. But I can only assume that there are other readers like me who flit between sites and lurk happily for years. So I wonder if the data showing site differences is all that meaningful?

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    86. dragonbringer: nd he even acknowledges that majority of the fans dont like it …but he focuses on the few readers who likes it like him…

      I suspect that it was much more popular with the readers than with the fans! The fans include a vocal contingent that want GRRM to hurry up Daeny’s plotline: Daeny’s “Kill the Girl, let the Woman be Born” storyline seems to not interest them. And the fans contain a very vocal anti-Daeny contingent. Instead of seeing her evolution, they see her missteps and dismiss her as incompetent. Instead of seeing her culture as one where people feel morally obliged to uphold family honor and power, they see her as “entitled” for “wanting” the throne. My suspicion is that these points of view are much (much!) less common among general readers and viewers than they are among hardcore fans. (The Harry Potter and Tolkien franchises also have both shown a big difference in how the minority that are fans and the majority that are general readers/viewers think and/or feel about these things.)

      The sad part is that GRRM’s Daeny material in Dragons was, along with Jon’s, his best from a purely literary standpoint! There was some great character stuff in those chapters. For me, it made up for the Arianne, Asha, Quentyn, etc., crap, and even for the uneven Tyrion stuff. (For me: I know a lot of people for whom Booker Award level writing could not make up for those sins.)

      DanielleSB: But I can only assume that there are other readers like me who flit between sites and lurk happily for years. So I wonder if the data showing site differences is all that meaningful?

      The number of respondents doing that probably is very, very small. I would expect that it would be much less than the multinomial error bars on the responses for the questions. However, it also would be very easy to model this statistically in a variety of ways. There are some simple tests that can identify replicates of the same sort that universities use to identify potential cheating on exams. Also, there are some basic tests that can show correlations in responses, which often is the more interesting issue: are people who believe that, say, the Pink Letter was written by Stannis more apt to believe that Howland Reed is the High Sparrow or the Hooded Man or something like that?

      The biggest thing to keep in mind is that these polls represent the hardcore fans, and not the general readers/viewers. Harry Potter provided a great example of how different the views can be. One of the major book chains (either Amazon or Borders) had a general Harry Potter poll prior to the last book. So did the Fansites such as Mugglenet and the Leaky Cauldron. The book chain questions were very basic: Was Harry Potter’s scar X, Y or Z? Was Snape doing this because of A, B or C? In contrast, the Fansite asked a lot of very specific questions of the sort appearing here: Was the wand at Ollivander’s shop Ravenclaw’s Wand? Was R.A.B. 1, 2 or 3? Was Caradoc Dearborn the guy who did X, Y, or Z? Is Sirius Black A, B or C? Is Neville’s Toad D, E or F? Are the two other Gryffindor girls K&L, M&N or O&P? Did James and Lily work as R, S or T before dying?

      Two things stood out. One, a huge proportion of the Fansite questions were never addressed in the last book. (I suspect that many people here who have read the books do not even “get” the questions!) Two, general readers were much more prone to correctly anticipate what Harry’s Scar was or what Snape’s motivations were than were the fans.

      Along these lines, it would be interesting to see what general readers/viewers think compared to the fans. Obviously there are nowhere near as many general readers of SoI&F as there were general readers of HP: but there still might be enough.

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